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Open mike 22/08/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 22nd, 2015 - 129 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmikeOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

129 comments on “Open mike 22/08/2015 ”

  1. Robert Guyton 1

    Tonight at 7:00, heritage apples and forest-gardens.

    • Morrissey 1.1

      Excellent! I heard the fascinating report about your place on Radio New Zealand a year or so ago. Look forward to seeing this one.

    • maui 1.2

      Awesome, I’ll be checking it out too, not tonight though but when they upload it onto the Country Calendar website. Much more interesting than the shows on standard farming.

    • Prickles 1.3

      Thanks – both for letting us know and for the great work you’re doing. Was definitely worth catching.

  2. Paul 2

    The Archdruid explaining why the Left has been losing to the Right.


    There are at least two reasons why a strategy of pure reaction, without any coherent attempt to advance an agenda of its own or even a clear idea of what that agenda might be, has been a fruitful source of humiliation and defeat for the American left. The first is that this approach violates one of the most basic rules of strategy: you win when you seize the initiative and force the other side to respond to your actions, and you lose by passively responding to whatever the other side comes up with. In any contest, without exception, if you surrender the initiative and let the other side set the terms of the conflict, you’re begging to be beaten, and will normally get your wish in short order.

    That in itself is bad enough. A movement that defines itself in purely negative terms, though, and attempts solely to prevent someone else’s agenda from being enacted rather than pursuing a concrete agenda of its own, suffers from another massive problem: the best such a movement can hope for is a continuation of the status quo, because the only choice it offers is the one between business as usual and something worse. That’s fine if most people are satisfied with the way things are, and are willing to fling themselves into the struggle for the sake of a set of political, economic, and social arrangements that they consider worth fighting for.

    http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.co.nz/2015/08/the-suicide-of-american-left.html?m=1

    • Paul 2.1

      From the same article.
      What a perfect description of many compromised Labour MPs in the UK and NZ.

      ‘I’m not sure why so many people on the leftward end of American politics haven’t noticed that this is not the case today. One hypothesis that comes to mind is that by and large, the leftward end of the American political landscape is dominated by middle class and upper middle class white people from the comparatively prosperous coastal states. Many of them belong to the upper 20% by income of the American population, and the rest aren’t far below that threshold. The grand bargain of the Reagan years, by which the middle classes bought a guarantee of their wealth and privilege by letting their former allies in the working classes get thrown under the bus, has profited them hugely, and holding onto what they gained by that maneuver doubtless ranks high on their unstated list of motives—much higher, certainly, than pushing for a different future that might put their privileges in jeopardy.’

    • Ad 2.2

      He is just so wrong.
      The monolithic left failed in the 1980s, and won. It won because “the left” split into a series of highly successful liberative movements in the late 1960s, which continued and established themselves throughout the media, academia, and education systems.

      It failed because conservative governments could smash the post-WW11 Labour-capital-consumerism world while the Soviet empire remained the boogeyman of strong-state redistributive economies.

      we forget the continuing successes of the former too easily, as if we are in a world of perpetual progressive regret. we are not.

      • Colonial Viper 2.2.1

        Yet the basic premise of the the Archdruid Report’s latest post rings true: the Left has been losing to the Right for several decades now, and continues to lose.

        It continues to lose because the Right sets the agenda and the Left reacts to it, all in an environment where the Right now has massively more institutional power than the Left.

        On this, Greer, the Archdruid is spot on.

        The monolithic left failed in the 1980s, and won. It won because “the left” split into a series of highly successful liberative movements in the late 1960s,

        Please clarify. Where in the world did the political economic left win.

        • Ad 2.2.1.1

          The political economic left didn’t always win.
          But the importance of the economic can be overstated.

          The political left found ways to recapture power elsewhere than electoral politics.

          In most big-state countries, the social welfare state hasn’t been dismantled – hell even National hasn’t touched Working for Families, Kiwisaver, the unemployment benefit, or NZSuper.

          Also, even National was perfectly happy to push through Gay Marriage, not repeal the Anti-Smacking Law, pushed on with Waitangi settlements, and can’t even pull someone’s hair without a smackdown. NZ is far more socially liberal than it ever used to be – and that’s a set of victories caused by the left.

          Not defending this government. Just pointing out that many of the left’s victories have been banked, even built on, by National.

        • Ad 2.2.1.2

          Plus, Archdruid is at base a misanthropist.
          He can’t see the point of people existing anymore – it’s life through a glass, half darkly.

          • Colonial Viper 2.2.1.2.1

            Druids aren’t misanthropes. But they can see when the seasons are changing.

            • Ad 2.2.1.2.1.1

              That particular Druid is a misanthrope.
              A really simple way to keep any movement alive, or indeed any patient, is to tell them what is working, and do more of it. That writer is just a cheerleader for the Global Movement Of Told You So’s.

    • adam 2.3

      I posted this last night Paul. I think this will help you understand that the left is very much alive. I’ve been saying on here that labour is not the left. I know the activist who write here think it is, but they need to realise they have a real problem with hard right wing members in the labour party, who distort and twist a strong social democratic message.

      http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/08/19/bernie-sanders-gives-wall-street-journal-reporter-the-best-tongue-lashing-youve-ever-seen-video/

      • Colonial Viper 2.3.1

        The Left is very much alive, but it lacks institutional power and it lacks funding and resources.

        • Draco T Bastard 2.3.1.1

          And is undermined by hard right wing members in the labour party.

          • Clemgeopin 2.3.1.1.1

            “undermined by hard right wing members in the labour party”

            What are you talking about?

            • Draco T Bastard 2.3.1.1.1.1

              This may be more accurate:

              And if that sounds like the manifesto of your average political party, then you’re right on the money. The endless pursuit of the Centrist voter has reduced our politicians to the equivalent of those journalistic low-lifes who go scavenging through the garbage of the rich and famous. In much the same way, the carelessly discarded detritus of the men and women “in the middle” gets picked over by political rubbish men, cleaned up, and re-cycled into party policy.

              Labour isn’t truly working as a Left wing party.

          • Vicky32 2.3.1.1.2

            Yes, to quote Clemgeopin, what are you talking about?

  3. The Chairman 3

    Another poor performance from Little on the Nation today.

    • Colonial Viper 3.1

      More detail please.

      • greywarshark 3.1.1

        I think the Chairman is one who demands a citation when presented with a commenters’ opinion here, so it is only right to request details of a criticism from him about a media event.

        can’t understand why citations should be asked for on opinions. Perhaps the question response should be – why do you think that?

    • Hami Shearlie 3.2

      I felt exactly the same, the loss of David Cunliffe’s ability to front the hard issues on television in his calm, cool and articulate way, is very apparent these days in my opinion. The Labour caucus have a lot to be ashamed of, they gave David Cunliffe a very short amount of time to establish himself before the election and then forced him out . He won every debate on television and would have been so good right now, with everything turning to custard on the economic front. Thanks Phil Goff, David Shearer, Clayton Cosgrove, Annette King, Grant Robertson, Jacinda Adern, Phil Twyford, etc etc etc.

      • Colonial Viper 3.2.1

        In reality, Little is a relatively new backbencher and certainly has had no Ministerial experience.

        Cunliffe certainly had room to improve but also had the potential to be the outstanding Labour Leader of our era, given a little bit more time.

        Which was exactly what many in his caucus did not want to give him.

        • greywarshark 3.2.1.1

          The business of tossing out a new leader after a loss in the polls is uncannily like what happens in the sporting community. Cunliffe lost so out he goes like an unsuccessful coach.

          This backs up an idea I have that politics today is not being addressed as an idealistic and practical way of attempting better conditions, fair and peaceful actions that produce good for individuals and the whole population. It is a competitive game like a sport, with great commitment to one’s team to see them win. In sport, winning is the name of the game (s.d that business about losing honourably). And these days money and perks will follow, and overseas travel. Sounds like many modern politicians’ dream wouldn’t you say.

          So in politics the leader is a servant of the caucus and needs to help them win or else, and the caucus are servants of whom?

          • Colonial Viper 3.2.1.1.1

            Caucus serves itself, and despite what is said is effectively accountable to no one else.

            • greywarshark 3.2.1.1.1.1

              Who is behind caucus though? If the defining object for the membership is not to serve the people’s good, and they are not operating on cultural and social ethical ideas, then who and what presses their buttons, pulls their strings.

              Is it now the ideology of wealthy people advancing their profit through efficiency and global opportunities. Are politicians seduced by views of them striding the world stage and talking up our importance in the financial and political world. In NZ I guess is it the 1-10% as seen behind the NZ Initiative. the Concentric Table?

              • Colonial Viper

                Who is behind caucus though?

                Not so much, who, but what.

                Careerism is the driving force. The details of how this is expressed varies according to the personality and ability of the individual.

                • greywarshark

                  CV
                  I think you have hit the target. That would explain their risk aversion in pursuing meaningful policies. They want to ensure that they offer enough to attract punters and keep Labour MPs in their jobs in caucus, but not ones that might be right but the voters are not ready to receive. What to do? Cut the career line to the placenta of goodies? How? I think we would get less monkeys wanting more peanuts.

                  And thanks for the disingenuous Matthew Hooton for doing his shapeshifter thing and derailing the thought line.

                  It’s Hotel California stuff.
                  Last thing I remember, I was
                  Running for the door
                  I had to find the passage back
                  To the place I was before

                  “Relax, ” said the night man,
                  “We are programmed to receive.
                  You can check-out any time you like,
                  But you can never leave! ”

                  The whole song is quite apt for the scenario we are thinking of.
                  AZ Lyrics present the lines well.
                  http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/eagles/hotelcalifornia.html
                  and for those who love the music.
                  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yyy4yaVwsv0)

          • Matthew Hooton 3.2.1.1.2

            Sir Graham Henry was kept on as All Blacks coach after the 2007 Rugby World Cup debacle.

            • Morrissey 3.2.1.1.2.1

              “Debacle”? They were beaten by France. Did you think it was going to be a gimme?

        • Jilly Bee 3.2.1.2

          + 1000 C V – I’m still a party member but my energy levels have waned somewhat since DC was replaced. He’s keeping a very low profile – not sure whether it’s self imposed (I do know his mother is most unwell and in hospital) or forced upon him.

          • Hami Shearlie 3.2.1.2.1

            I feel his low profile may be imposed by caucus wanting the likes of Grant Robertson etc to “shine” – good luck with that one! Who in the caucus is actually making a huge impact lately? Jacinda? Dream on! David Cunliffe doesn’t even seem to be allowed to ask a question in Question Time these days. I miss his articulate manner, grasp of the big picture and the curly questions he might pose if given the chance!

            • Karen 3.2.1.2.1.1

              +1 Hami

              I really miss David Cunliffe’s intellect and his ability to communicate complex issues clearly.

              Little started well, but really hasn’t impressed fora number of months now.It seems to me that he is so busy trying to appease everybody that nobody knows what he stands for any more. On radio he sounds offhand and unconvincing. His main achievement is that the caucus do look more united, but IMO Little really needs to inject a bit of passion into his performance.

              • Clemgeopin

                Putting some more boots in? Do you even realise what the hell you are actually ending up doing?

                • b waghorn

                  Exactly the left is its own worst enemy as much as I despise national I have to admire the tight ship they run.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    They run a tight ship because they have money and positions to move their deadwood and unwanted MPs on to when their due time comes, nice and smooth like.

                    • b waghorn

                      I realize that but from what I’m aware of in you’re case is that you have been on the inside and now you are on the outs a bit so I just see you’re behaviour as sour grapes.
                      I caught most of the nation this am and apart from a lack of clarity around the ninety day he did OK with as clemgeopin says some poor gotcha attempts.

                    • greywarshark

                      That’s jumping to conclusions bwaghorn. Presumably CV knows more about caucus and the interior view of Labour than you and therefore has something real to critique. Whereas you know how you feel at any given moment. So your opinion is interesting, whereas CV’s may be enlightening.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Sour grapes, yes indeed: the exact feeling when you realise that you have been sold a false bill of goods.

              • Bearded Git

                @Karen Agree about the the passion.

                But please forget about Cunliffe as leader-he will make a fine minister if Labour wins the election, but going on about his demise gets us nowhere. (I will never forget John Armstrong’s disgusting article calling for him to resign over the 10 year old pro-forma letter.)

                In the meantime Little will lead Labour to the next election so he needs constructive criticism to keep improving his performance. I think Labour have been performing well recently-Twyford, Parker and King especially.

                • adam

                  AH the voice of reason.

                  Nothing to inspire – just keep calm, trust us – we have not done working folk any harm (Of late).

                  Look we will just cut you off at the knees, is that not better than being cut off at the hip.

                  Why are working class people so bloody demanding!!!

                  My sarcasm is a bit lame tonight. How about this

                  The Radical Peasant: We’ve got to get rid of this Feudal system, it’s killing us! Are you with us?

                  The Liberal Peasant: No, no, just wait till we get a new Lord. I hear his son has some good views on crop rotation.

  4. The Chairman 4

    I was going to post a link (to let commentators judge for themselves) but its not up yet.

    • Weepus beard 4.1

      Use your words then.

      • The Chairman 4.1.1

        His position on the 90 day trial law was far from clear.

        In fact, clear answers weren’t forthcoming. Too much waffle.

        Little reaffirmed Nationals rowing boat campaign, with the opposition rowing in all different directions.

        See for yourself:
        http://www.3news.co.nz/tvshows/thenation/interview-labour-leader-andrew-little-2015082210#axzz3jUXymhOn

        • Reality 4.1.1.1

          Andrew Little’s responses were perfectly fine. He talks sense and rightly highlighted the worm farm and lavender growing nonsense.

          • Colonial Viper 4.1.1.1.1

            First 90s:

            Little goes off track, barely answers to the question about Serco, misses an opportunity to deride the concept of private prisons; seems like Little wouldn’t have Serco do state housing because Serco did a bad job at Mt Eden. (So if Serco improves at Mt Eden, Little would be open to them being involved in state housing?). Overall, mediocre to poor.

            Then up to 5:00:

            Average to mediocre on health and safety. Started off well, and then declined as he got bogged down in detail and not principles. Ended up sounding like a health and safety consultant, not the Leader of the Opposition. Even praised some National Party MPs. Didn’t effectively push back against Owen’s claim that Labour was advocating for more red tape for small businesses.

            Up to 7:45:

            Mediocre to poor on the claim that Labour has changed its position on the right to fire legislation. This resulted from Little not being clear who he was addressing – workers, Labour supporters or business owners. So the message was very mixed sounding.

            Little should have said – Labour will definitely abolish the right to fire legislation as we have always said – but we will also ensure that employers have the right to use trial periods for staff where there are safeguards of fairness to all.

            Up to 9:00

            OK on the TPPA but he could have landed some better hits on the Government’s broken promises on its negotiations. At this point Little seems to not be able to pull out the short sharp meaningful one liner which has a big impact.

            Up to 11:30

            OK to mediocre on Climate Change, but Little didn’t really give a concise coherent explanation of why he thinks Climate Change is such a big moral issue of this century – yet Labour is still going to support coal mining and oil drilling. Most people against climate change won’t find the position sensible; most people who don’t care about climate change will wonder if Labour is just all talk.

            to the finish:

            Not good. Little seemed to give some disingenuous answers with regards to NZF as a coalition partner, and then the clip ends at an awkward moment where Little seems a bit frustrated with Lisa Own.

            • Clemgeopin 4.1.1.1.1.1

              Your ‘put the boot into Andrew and Labour’ at every opportunity you get is just like Hooton’s ‘analysis’.

              Did it occur to you that apart from the H& S, ‘most’ questions were
              hypothetical ‘gotcha’ type of questions that could not be answered definitively with certainty without the yet to be known details and were designed to trip him up for possible sensational headlines?

              • Colonial Viper

                Not good enough, I’m afraid. Cunliffe, Peters, Clark, Key would have all pushed back more effectively.

                • Clemgeopin

                  Andrew is a different person and a different type of leader. He is not the ‘usual’ type of politician that you are looking/longing for.

                  Among the four names you mentioned, Peters and Key are still there for you to choose between.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    yeah well Corbyn is not the usual smoothy politician type either and he seems to do just fine in tough interviews.

                    • Clemgeopin

                      Corbyn isn’t the leader of a political party YET. Did you forget that?

                      Once he becomes the leader, he will HAVE to reconsider some or many of his policies and bluster that happens during an internal party leadership campaign, and give more seriously measured responses in media interviews with the responsibility of knowing that he is the potential Prime Minister who will need to make sensible, workable and pragmatic decisions which will not only have the support of most of the voters but will also be good for the people and the country.

                      There is a big difference in pitching oneself to the faithful for party leadership and actually being the leader and potential PM for the entire country.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      All I know is that Little has work to do.

                    • Clemgeopin

                      Of course he has worked to do. He is yet to gain more experience in the job and has to tread with care and caution. That is elementary Dr Watson. Do you remember the sweet talking Key in his early days as the opposition leader and the PM in his early days?

                      Would you prefer a thoughtful honest leader who tries to give honest answers or a leader who smiles, easy going but seems quite untrustworthy?
                      Take a look at this clip:
                      http://www.3news.co.nz/politics/highlights-from-keys-2008-no-job-cuts-speech-2012031418#axzz3jV9pfRhh

                      But some of us have been very impatient and too harsh on Little and parroting the RW statements and agenda, when he has been in the job for just about nine months, while the Labour party policies are under review and the election is still more than two years away.

                      Sure, criticise him, but do so constructively and not in a way to demean and harm him and the Labour party. Only enemies of the left do that.

                      Also, it would be useful to email him or the party with ideas and suggestions if they are useful and made with good intentions.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      Fuck off a centrist establishmentarian like you Clemgeopin having the audacity to call me an enemy of the left; further Little ran out of grace period with me when he signed off on the Chinese house buyers gambit.

                      He wanted Cunliffe’s job now he better start doing a better job. Or shall we give Little another 6 months to get it together.

                    • Clemgeopin

                      “Fuck off a centrist establishmentarian like you Clemgeopin”

                      You are funny!

                      I am not a centrist establishmentarian, nor an anti centre-right-disestablishmentarian.

                      What I am is a pragmatic socialist democrat for the modern times and I take the pragmatic ‘electable’ view that a modern socialist party such as Labour should be a party (1) of the left, (2) of the left-of-centre and (3) the centre, (and not foolishly be just the party of the left and die a permanent death).

                      That is exactly the positions that Sanders has taken if you watch many of his speech videos. He advocates for the sick, the poor, the students and primarily for the care of the middle classes. I do too!

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFAq-4Vv5c0&feature=youtu.be

                      Not sure if Corbyn says the same thing about the vast majority of the middle classes. Probably does.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Labour will be electable when it stands in solidarity with the bottom 80% in society. Currently it is too concerned with what the top 5% think of it.

                    • Clemgeopin

                      “Labour will be electable when it stands in solidarity with the bottom 80% in society”

                      I certainly think they do!

                      “Currently it is too concerned with what the top 5% think of it”

                      I doubt that and hope not.

                      Now go to bed and have happy peaceful dreams. 晚安

                • Weepus beard

                  If you loved Cunliffe’s delivery so much why did your people oust him?

                  I know you’re going to say “they’re not my people”, but the truth is CV, you are so all over the place that an observer has no idea what you actually stand for.

              • Karen

                Actually I think CV has given some good examples of how Little could have done better. It is far more constructive criticism than “putting the boot in.”

                Pretending that Little is performing really well in media interviews (when it is obvious that he is not) is not helpful if you want Labour to win the next election. My big worry is that Little isn’t getting any better at communication, and he really does need to.

            • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1.1.1.2

              yet Labour is still going to support coal mining and oil drilling.

              So do I. I just say that we should ban burning it or selling it to people who are going to burn it.

              • wot??? YOU support coal mining and oil drilling? say it ain’t so – you will dig it up at great cost to many areas including the environment, emissions and so on, and then not burn it or sell it??? Wot you gonna do with it? Why not just not dig it up or suck it out? bloody/facedesk

                • Draco T Bastard

                  As per usual, your ignorance is showing. You can do more with the hydrocarbons than just burn them.

                  http://science.howstuffworks.com/plastic5.htm
                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrochemical

                  • answer the questions

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      I did.

                    • Please show where you answered this question – why not just not dig it up or suck it out?

                    • adam

                      I thought Draco T Bastard gave a couple of great introduction links – you can expand from there marty mars – try google.

                      Here’s a heads up.

                      NZ has quite a substantial reserve of high grade coal – which should not be burnt as it is awesome for many other things – ever heard of carbon fibre?

                    • that’s nice adam

                      I did read the links.

                      so you and draco want to continue to dig, drill and suck – just like the gnats as it happens, and you want to use the high grade coal dug out through your eyesore, destructive, open cast mines, to make carbon fibre. Perchance why??? It doesn’t really matter what fancy you come up with be it space ships or alien cricket bats btw.

                      Well guess what – I oppose that. I don’t want you the gnats to dig any more shit up

                      No more exploitation of Papatūānuku for bullshit western lavish lifestyles and fake futures.

                      so now I’ve answered my own question I’ll go beddy byes.

                    • adam

                      Carbon is a very useful element.

                      We just been stupid enough to burn it.

                      Not sure what you expect to use if not carbon for quite a few things – please if you have a solution, I’m all for reading about it.

                    • weka

                      can you give some examples of the things you think are important?

                    • further down this page a solution!!!

                      Open mike 22/08/2015

                      so we don’t have to dig it, drill it or suck it after all – certainly not if we want carbon fibre for use in the ” aerospace, construction, and electronics industry” (from Grey’s post below)

                      this is the beauty of the net

                      problem – marty don’t want holes dug, draco do want them dug because he and adam want the carbon fibre to build stuff

                      solution – create operation to get carbon out of atmosphere thus reducing it in the atmosphere and making it (by turning it into carbon fibre) available to build spaceships and toasters.

                      result – less carbon in atmosphere, spaceships built of carbon fibre, and the process is likely, after development and testing to be potentially less expensive than existing methods – ahem yay!

                      They have even tested this new method and they were able to “generate the large amount of heat needed to run the desired reaction.” – okay yay again to that I think

                    • weka

                      What are the potential pollution problems arising from that? Manufacture, disposal at end of life, etc.

                      How many fossil fuels are needed to create that industry? To keep it running?

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      problem – marty don’t want holes dug, draco do want them dug because he and adam want the carbon fibre to build stuff

                      I want more than the carbon fibre. I want the life saving drugs that come from the use of the hydro carbons. I want the advanced recyclable plastics that can be made from them. And hundreds if not thousands of other products that are essential to a good and healthy living.

                      Now, here’s a thing: Digging holes in the ground isn’t really a problem – Papatūānuku will just fill them again and often with a marvellous new ecosystem. The problem comes if we poison that hole so we don’t do that. That is going to need strong regulation and you’ll get lots of whinging from the capitalists saying that it will cost too much to keep clean but we should have learned by now that we simply shouldn’t be listening to the capitalists.

                      result – less carbon in atmosphere, spaceships built of carbon fibre, and the process is likely, after development and testing to be potentially less expensive than existing methods – ahem yay!

                      Have you considered the problem with that? To give you a hint, it’s the exact opposite of the one we have now.

                      How many fossil fuels are needed to create that industry? To keep it running?

                      None. Again, you misunderstand the nature of fossil fuels and their use and how they’re simply not needed.

                      It will require more mining though.

          • Bearded Git 4.1.1.1.2

            @Reality +1 Little did just fine in this interview. He is smart and the Nats are having trouble knocking his solid, common-sense image after the pathetic Angry-Andy smear failed.

  5. Jilly Bee 5

    Reading Audrey Young’s column in Granny Herald today was a fairly interesting read about Michael Woodhouse’s absolutely pathetic handling of the Health and Safety legislation. I thought she was being fairly reasonable in her criticism of the Government, but then at the end, the boot went into Andrew Little for demanding that several Ministers should have been stood down/resigned over several botch ups. It’s all his fault/Labour did it too/it’s Labour’s fault etc etc. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11500944

  6. Morrissey 6

    Hats off to Neil Miller.*
    Not many people would be so magnanimous after being made to look so foolish.

    The Panel, Radio NZ National, Friday 21 August 2015
    Jim Mora, Andrew “Dire” Clay, Neil Miller

    Should the police be armed or not? Neil Miller opined that New Zealand is an “out-lier” on this issue, but that nothing will change until not only policemen, but members of the public start getting shot. Of course, members of the public are getting shot—by the police. Sadly, however, neither Jim Mora nor Andrew “Dire” Clay had the presence of mind to remind him of this.

    Miller then announced how much of a fan he is of police using tasers. Clay, who often refers to himself as a “liberal”, endorsed Miller’s view, burbling: “I’m a big fan of tasers.”

    To introduce some informed comment on to the program, the producers had arranged for Mora to cross to Deakin University Associate Professor in Criminology Dr Darren Palmer, who quickly and eloquently showed that neither Clay nor Miller had a clue what they were talking about. Politely but devastatingly, he showed that every single point that they had made was fallacious.

    Neil Miller had nothing at all to offer by way of counter-argument. However, once Dr Palmer had departed, Miller said sportingly: “Very sensible comments from an academic, I must say.”

    If only Neil Miller’s sportsmanship and honour could be emulated by the likes of Cameron Slater or Jordan Williams or David Farrar or Barry Corbett or Stephen Franks or Michelle Boag or Denise L’Estrange-Corbet or Nevil “Breivik” Gibson.

    * Yesterday this writer, i.e., moi, misheard Neil Miller’s generous comment and posted that he had called Dr Palmer’s comments “cynical”. Thanks to our vigilant friend Gabby for pointing out my grievous error. Here’s the original post….

    Open mike 21/08/2015

    • Tautoko Mangō Mata 6.1

      Here is an interesting article on policing in USA.

      “More than one thousand people are killed by police every year in America,” the group states on its website. “Nearly sixty percent of victims did not have a gun or were involved in activities that should not require police intervention such as harmless ‘quality of life’ behaviors or mental health crises.”http://www.cops.usdoj.gov/pdf/taskforce/Interim_TF_Report.pdf
      http://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/08/21/campaign-zero-blueprint-ending-police-violence

      The article refers to an Interim report from the task force on policing in USA and this paragraph caught my attention.

      “In 2012, we began asking the question, “Why are we training police officers like
      soldiers?” Although police officers wear uniforms and carry weapons, the similarity
      ends there. The missions and rules of engagement are completely different. The
      soldier’s mission is that of a warrior: to conquer. The rules of engagement are decided before the battle. The police officer’s mission is that of a guardian: to protect. The rules of engagement evolve as the incident unfolds. Soldiers must follow orders. Police officers must make independent decisions. Soldiers come into communities as an outside, occupying force. Guardians are members of the community, protecting from within.”

      This makes sense to me and I wonder what path Greg O’Connor is wanting to take our police down?

      • Morrissey 6.1.1

        Thanks for that, my friend. I share your concerns about Greg O’Connor. Whenever he appears on television or radio, his views seem poorly thought out and reflexively right wing.

        It just goes to show that not every union rep is of the calibre of Helen Kelly or Richard Wagstaff. O’Connor is a union rep more in the mould of Tau Henare, who sneered at cleaning women at a select committee hearing and reduced them to tears.

      • Kevin 6.1.2

        This looks like an interesting movie about this topic:

        http://www.peaceofficerfilm.com

  7. weka 7

    I see John Pilger is being interviewed on RNZ in the morning about Assange. Whatever other interesting and useful things he has to say, I’ll also be listening to see if he has learnt how not to support rape culture in his support for Assange.

    9.30 Sunday http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/20150823

    He’s also going to be talking about Corbyn.

    • Morrissey 7.1

      If someone in the British secret services concocts a fantastic case against Jeremy Corbyn, you’ll no doubt be repeating those lies enthusiastically.

      • weka 7.1.1

        Only if the person who writes about it misuses rape culture as part of their argument. In which case it won’t be lie, will it.

        • Morrissey 7.1.1.1

          Your answer is totally confusing. Could you write in plain English please?

          • weka 7.1.1.1.1

            Your answer was confusing too, but I assumed you meant I was lying about something (calling Pilger a rape apologist?). So if a govt attacks Corbyn and people defending Corbyn use rape culture in their defense in the way that Pilger has, I will name that. But it won’t be a lie because it’s just happened and I’m just making an observation about it.

            Of course I am guessing because you were obscure. How about you write in plain English?

            • Morrissey 7.1.1.1.1.1

              Your answer was confusing too,

              No it was not. You know exactly what I meant.

              but I assumed you meant I was lying about something (calling Pilger a rape apologist?).

              Good. You do understand that I was calling you on your absurd lie.

              …..use rape culture in their defense in the way that Pilger has

              Could you expand on this bizarre claim, please? I suspect you’re already way out of your depth, but I’m willing for you to show us otherwise.

              I’m just making an observation about it

              You’re not making an “observation” about anything. You are simply reiterating one of the most brutal lies about a human rights activist that has been propagated in living memory. The viciousness of your mindless activity is not mitigated by the fact you write so poorly.

              • weka

                There’s nothing vicious in what I said, unless you are suggesting that a feminist having a political analysis of rape culture is vicious. Which is not an uncommon assertion, but that doesn’t make it any less absurd.

                If you want the detail, search ts for weka +pilger, I’ve commented on it before. That Pilger is so good in other ways is precisely the point that feminists have been making for a long time now. Left wing men still have large blind spots when it comes to the oppressions they take part in.

                Interestingly, if you want an example of how to write about Assange without promoting rape culture, look at CV’s post from the other day. He got his points across without using rape myths or undermining women who routinely get caught up in the politics of rape. That’s a very good sign.

                • Morrissey

                  unless you are suggesting that a feminist having a political analysis of rape culture is vicious.

                  There is not a shred of analysis in what you have said. You have merely recycled the black propaganda of the British and U.S. regimes. You might see such behaviour as virtuous, I see it as the very opposite.

                  I have read what you said about Pilger, and it is as vacuous now as when it was first published on this mostly excellent forum.

                  • weka

                    “There is not a shred of analysis in what you have said”

                    Not on this page, because all I did was name something.

                    “You have merely recycled the black propaganda of the British and U.S. regimes.”

                    Please link to where the British and US regimes have named Pilger as promoting rape culture. A couple of examples will suffice.

                    “You might see such behaviour as virtuous, I see it as the very opposite.”

                    I’d be very surprised if the British and US regimes had even considered the idea.

                    “I have read what you said about Pilger, and it is as vacuous now as when it was first published on this mostly excellent forum.”

                    That doesn’t match what you said before when you asked me to explain. I’m getting the sense of disingenuous here. I notice that you haven’t put up a single thing to refute my claim other than that Pilger is Great.

                    • Morrissey

                      Every one of the ridiculous, completely discredited accusations made against this dangerous, truth-telling, dissenting journalist is the result of deliberate lies orchestrated by the British secret services.

                      You need to seriously do some reading. Your naiveté is alarming, to say the least.

                      You might like to start by listening to someone else who was targeted in the same way as Assange, except the agents of his intended destruction were a little more ham-fisted and vulnerable than the likes of the odious Marianne Ny….

                    • weka

                      oh right, silly little feminists couldn’t come up with an argument of their own, they’re just parrotting the evil British SS.

                      You have failed to provide any evidence that the US or Brits have named Pilger as a rape apologist. Get a grip Morrisey, and put up an actual proper argument or fuck off. I can’t be bothered with a Pilger fanboy who just wants to spout florid rhetoric and move goal posts instead of discussing actual issues.

                    • Morrissey

                      “silly little feminists couldn’t come up with an argument of their own, they’re just parrotting the evil British SS.”

                      You’re trying to argue that the persecution of this dissenter is being organized by feminists? That’s about as foolish a thing as you’ve written here. And that’s saying something.

                      I note that Women Against Rape almost immediately denounced this ridiculous campaign, as did the young women who had been bullied and manipulated into complying with this obscene business.

                      Everything you have said about Pilger lacks even a hint of credibility.

                    • weka

                      I can’t tell if you are being extremely thick or just trying to wind me up. I think I’ll go for the latter.

                      To be clear, what I have said today has nothing to do with the persecution of Assange (or Pilger) by the US or UK.

                      You seem to think I am talking about the rape charges against Assange. I’m not.

                    • Morrissey

                      Then why are you making these nutty allegations about Pilger?

                    • weka

                      the only thing I’ve said about Pilger is that I hope he’s changed and doesn’t talking about Assange tomorrow in ways that promote rape culture. If you don’t understand what I mean by that, it’s up to you to ask.

                      All the other stuff about persecution by the state etc is what you’ve brought up, nothing to do with my point.

                    • greywarshark

                      Weka – Morrissey on Assange. Can anyone give me the result of the contest without me having to read it. I am guessing its nil all.

                    • weka

                      there is no contest. Morrissey went off on a mission of his own making that had nothing to do with my comment. Last time I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt.

                      Please don’t make his mistake. I wasn’t talking about Assange.

  8. Blue Horsehoe 8

    http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=2109855

    Objectives To identify published clinical trials in which an FDA inspection found significant evidence of objectionable conditions or practices, to describe violations, and to determine whether the violations are mentioned in the peer-reviewed literature

    Conclusions and Relevance When the FDA finds significant departures from good clinical practice, those findings are seldom reflected in the peer-reviewed literature, even when there is evidence of data fabrication or other forms of research misconduct.

    http://charlesseife.com/fdadocuments.html

  9. Clemgeopin 9

    Andrew Little’s well considered answers for difficult questions, in spite of cachya type of questions in this morning’s The Nation’s interview.

    http://www.3news.co.nz/tvshows/thenation/interview-labour-leader-andrew-little-2015082210#axzz3jV9pfRhh

  10. Morrissey 10

    Meet the next British prime minister

    The Blairites that dominate the Labour Party and the media are running scared of this bloke. He’s the MP for Islington North. His majority at the last election was 21,194, but Blair’s cronies insist on calling him “unelectable”….

    Jeremy Corbyn – Leeds 8th August 2015

    • James 10.1

      Corbyn will never be Prime Minister.

      I believe that the guy is unelectable. What real “Labour” voters and the wider public believe are worlds apart.

      • Morrissey 10.1.1

        Someone who must be an ACT voter writes….

        I believe that the guy is unelectable.

        Clearly not, as his 21,194 majority demonstrates only too clearly.

        What real “Labour” voters and the wider public believe are worlds apart.

        So the huge majority of Labour voters who back Corbyn, and the majority of the British population that agree with his views, are not real voters. Got it.

        • greywarshark 10.1.1.1

          Yes Morrissey I too believe that James is an ACT voter. He regularly comes over as a RW twit.

    • greywarshark 10.2

      I notice the young people in the meeting. Few grey older people to be seen. Very responsive meeting for Corbyn.

  11. Draco T Bastard 11

    Guatemala prosecutors seek to impeach president after ex-VP’s arrest

    Perez’s conservative administration has spent much of this year mired in public protests and scandals over corruption allegations against senior officials, several of whom the retired general fired during a cabinet purge in May.

    I remember when conservatives actually had some moral fortitude…

    Oh, wait, no I don’t.

  12. Brett Dale 13

    First off.

    1: Im not religious
    2: I believe in the right to Protest and Counter Protest.
    3: I Like America.
    4: I have no idea if the TPPA will be good or not.
    5: Told ya Hoverboards will be invented.

    So walking down the street in Nelson today, I heard a lone protester screaming “The TPPA is awful” he looked really angry, his eyes were popping out his head, his fists were clenched, he looked like he wanted to punch someone.

    He then yelled “Jesus Hates the TPPA, even Jesus hates the TPPA”

    he walked straight past me, I said “Seriously even Jesus hates it?”

    He got in my face yelled rather loudly said “Yes, everybody hates it” and walked off.

    He is my friendly advice to future protesters.

    1: Just because your angry, that doesnt make you right.

    2: I can be turned around on any issue, if you provided facts/data/stats and are very analytical in how you present them.

    3: If you attend a lot of protests where you burn the American flag, I will believe that your more about political ideology than whether a certain law is good or not.

    4: Please dont scream in my face or poke your finger in my eye.

    5: You may believe if New Zealand was a socialist country, we will all be on seven figure salaries, I dont believe this.

    6: The people who make the most noise, don’t come across as Rhode Scholars or people I would trust with any economic law.

    7: Please know that there are people who are just as passionate about a issue and may be on the Opposite side of that issue.

    Again, I think you will get a lot further with your protests if you take this advice.

    • marty mars 13.1

      I cannot understand why you didn’t outline your 7 step plan to the ACTUAL protester you wrote the plan for.

      • weka 13.1.1

        indeed, hard to see what that advice has to do with anyone here.

      • Brett Dale 13.1.2

        It all happened to quickly, I guess I can now, if someone else starts screaming in my face.

        • Morrissey 13.1.2.1

          Did you outline to this person—assuming he exists and you’re not fantasizing—your carefully thought out view on the plight of the Palestinians?

          (i,e. “They deserve everything that happens to them.”)

        • marty mars 13.1.2.2

          and yes I was expecting you back – you said when hoverboards happen you will return and apparently they are happening but for me I’m still not convinced yet.

          • Brett Dale 13.1.2.2.1

            I believe they will. In October. Maybe really expensive, but theres two companies that have working prototypes.

    • greywarshark 13.2

      I thank you Brett Dale for your detailed exposition on behalf of all protesters, who are all individuals not a collective of yellow-eyed children into groupthink as in Wyndhams book The Midwich Cuckoos,

      The politics of TPPA are enough to drive sensitive people nutty. Thank goodness you are not sensitive, nutty or shy of advising everyone on how to avoid such states.

    • Gabby 13.3

      Cool story bro.

  13. Draco T Bastard 14

    With National your ‘Brighter Future’ involves:

    “My GP says until I actually crawl up his driveway to his surgery, don’t bother asking him again.”

    Yeah, crawling up driveways because you can no longer walk to get the treatment that would allow you to walk.

    • whateva next? 14.1

      yep, they cooked the booked for a shiter future, as we knew they would

    • marty mars 14.2

      yep the absurd asking for the impossible – “Male gnats often assemble in large mating swarms or ghosts, particularly at dusk.” We’ve all seen them milling around in the late afternoon light – bet they don’t have to crawl to the doctor.

  14. Weepus beard 15

    The little guy from the embarrassing MasterCard ads…

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CM9hxiMUkAAFYgT.png

  15. joe90 16

    M’urica

    https://twitter.com/julito77/status/634932196776759296/photo/1

    edit: the source

    Still, others said they had plenty of advice for the man they regularly identified in conversation as “Mr. Trump.”

    “Hopefully, he’s going to sit there and say, ‘When I become elected president, what we’re going to do is we’re going to make the border a vacation spot, it’s going to cost you $25 for a permit, and then you get $50 for every confirmed kill,’ ” said Jim Sherota, 53, who works for a landscaping company. “That’d be one nice thing.”

    http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/08/22/us/donald-trump-fails-to-fill-alabama-stadium-but-fans-zeal-is-undiminished.html

  16. adam 17

    Good news on workers solidarity from.

    http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Brazil-Hundreds-of-Thousands-Protest-Against-Coup-Attempts-20150820-0033.html

    And some bad news from the Ukraine. It seem to getting worse not better there. Worth watching the vice video if you have not yet.

    http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150820/1025986430/ukraine-right-sector-child-soldiers.html

    One more piece – depressing – when they go so hard after social democrat’s.

    http://sputniknews.com/columnists/20150821/1026006091.html

    • joe90 17.1

      And some bad news from the Ukraine. It seem to getting worse not better there. Worth watching the vice video if you have not yet.

      Dutch blogger Dajey Petros tells a rather different story.

      http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/nazis-are-core-of-russias-hybrid-army.html

      • adam 17.1.1

        I think there are neo-nazis on both sides. That said, right-sector is a ultra right wing group who are fubar.

    • Clemgeopin 17.2

      Thanks for the links. The article on Corbyn and the dirty politics was very intertesting. Fascinating elections coming up with Corbyn on IK and Sanders in USA!

      “Maybe sometime in the past the British establishment could succeed in destroying an alternative voice, as they did with Labour’s Michael Foot and Tony Benn during the 1980s. But, today, the public no longer rely on the media mouthpieces of the establishment. They can make their own minds up with abundant alternative information sources.

      The surging popular support for Corbyn is proof of that. The British people have had it with the rich getting richer and the vast majority getting poorer. They have had it with war, state-sponsored lawlessness and “professional” politician-puppets like Tony Blair and his New Labour ilk.

      Corbyn is showing that socialism is a real alternative, no matter what the establishment says’

      Great to hear that! Fingers crossed.

  17. dv 18

    This is an interesting development

    http://www.technologyreview.com/news/540706/researcher-demonstrates-how-to-suck-carbon-from-the-air-make-stuff-from-it/

    A new method for taking carbon dioxide directly from the air and converting it to oxygen and nanoscale fibers made of carbon could lead to an inexpensive way to make a valuable building material—and may even serve as a weapon against climate change.
    Licht says his group’s newly demonstrated technology, which both captures the carbon dioxide from the air and employs an electrochemical process to convert it to carbon nanofibers and oxygen, is more efficient and potentially a lot cheaper than existing methods
    But it’s more than just a simpler, less expensive way of making a high value product. It’s also a “means of storing and sequestering carbon dioxide in a useful manner, a stable manner, and in a compact manner,” says Licht. He points out that if the process is powered by renewable energy, the result is a net removal of carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. In a recent demonstration, his group used a unique concentrated solar power system, which makes use of infrared sunlight as well as visible light to generate the large amount of heat needed to run the desired reaction..

    • greywarshark 18.1

      Our own Rdion is up to dte with this. Plese note – I hve spilt some wter on my keybord, now the left side keys including the first lphbet letter don’t work. In the opinion of people who know, will it dry out nd the function return?

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player/201767441
      http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/201767441/a-groundbreaking-co2-strategy-that-pays-for-itself

      9:21 AM. Researchers invent a process that turns polluting carbon dioxide into carbon nanofibers, a highly sought-after manufacturing material with the potential to be used in the aerospace, construction, and electronics industry. Stuart Licht, Professor of Chemistry at George Washington University.

      • dv 18.1.1

        Yes I had heard it on the radio, but I couldn’t recall where, so I went hunting for the “original” article.

        It sound really interesting.

        Aha rdion = radionz!!!
        May be a hairdryer might help?

        • greywarshark 18.1.1.1

          Thanks I lifted and angled keyboard overnight. More keys down. Have a spare and the old one was due to move on. Maybe my head is a bit wet – will use the hairdryer on that.

          I thought the article was really good too, it’s hard to pull yourself up by your bootstraps when you’re already small but we must try.

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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Tupu Aotearoa continues expansion to Pacific communities in Nelson, Marlborough, Tasman & Northl...
    Pacific communities in Nelson, Marlborough, Tasman and Northland will benefit from the expansion of the Tupu Aotearoa programme announced today by the Minister for Pacific Peoples, Aupito William Sio. The programme provides sustainable employment and education pathways and will be delivered in partnership with three providers in Northland and two ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • New primary school and classrooms for 1,200 students in South Island
    Education Minister Chris Hipkins unveiled major school building projects across the South Island during a visit to Waimea College in Nelson today. It’s part of the Government’s latest investment of $164 million to build new classrooms and upgrade schools around the country. “Investments like this gives the construction industry certainty ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Minister of Māori Development pays tribute to Rudy Taylor
      Today the Minister of Māori Development, alongside other Government Ministers and MP’s said their final farewells to Nga Puhi Leader Rudy Taylor.  “Rudy dedicated his life to the betterment of Māori, and his strong approach was always from the ground up, grassroots, sincere and unfaltering”  “Over the past few ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Prime Minister to attend APEC Leaders’ Summit
    Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern will attend the annual APEC Economic Leaders’ Meeting and associated events virtually today and tomorrow. “In a world where we cannot travel due to COVID-19, continuing close collaboration with our regional partners is key to accelerating New Zealand’s economic recovery,” Jacinda Ardern said. “There is wide ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Speech to Infrastructure NZ Symposium
    Tena Koutou, Tena Koutou and thank you for inviting me to speak to you today. This is a critical time for New Zealand as we respond to the damage wreaked by the global COVID-19 pandemic. It is vital that investment in our economic recovery is well thought through, and makes ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Pike River 10 Year Anniversary Commemorative Service
    Tēnei te mihi ki a tātau katoa e huihui nei i tēnei rā Ki a koutou ngā whānau o te hunga kua riro i kōnei – he mihi aroha ki a koutou Ki te hapori whānui – tēnā koutou Ki ngā tāngata whenua – tēnā koutou Ki ngā mate, e ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Huge investment in new and upgraded classrooms to boost construction jobs
    Around 7,500 students are set to benefit from the Government’s latest investment of $164 million to build new classrooms and upgrade schools around the country. “The election delivered a clear mandate to accelerate our economic recovery and build back better. That’s why we are prioritising construction projects in schools so more ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Keeping Pike River Mine promises 10 years on
    Ten years after the Pike River Mine tragedy in which 29 men lost their lives while at work, a commemorative service at Parliament has honoured them and their legacy of ensuring all New Zealand workplaces are safe. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern attended the event, along with representatives of the Pike ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Additional testing to strengthen border and increase safety of workers
    New testing measures are being put in place to increase the safety of border workers and further strengthen New Zealand’s barriers against COVID-19, COVID-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins said today. “These strengthened rules – to apply to all international airports and ports – build on the mandatory testing orders we’ve ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • More public housing delivered in Auckland
    The Government’s investment in public housing is delivering more warm, dry homes with today’s official opening of 82 new apartments in New Lynn by the Housing Minister Megan Woods. The Thom Street development replaces 16 houses built in the 1940s, with brand new fit-for-purpose public housing that is in high ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Agreement advanced to purchase up to 5 million COVID-19 vaccines
    The Government has confirmed an in-principle agreement to purchase up to 5 million COVID-19 vaccines – enough for 5 million people – from Janssen Pharmaceutica, subject to the vaccine successfully completing clinical trials and passing regulatory approvals in New Zealand, says Research, Science and Innovation Minister Megan Woods. “This agreement ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Jobs for Nature funding will leave a conservation legacy for Waikanae awa
    Ninety-two jobs will be created to help environmental restoration in the Waikanae River catchment through $8.5 million of Jobs for Nature funding, Conservation Minister Kiritapu Allan announced today. “The new funding will give a four-year boost to the restoration of the Waikanae awa, and is specifically focussed on restoration through ...
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    2 weeks ago