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Open Mike 23/01/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, January 23rd, 2017 - 93 comments
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93 comments on “Open Mike 23/01/2017”

  1. lprent 1

    The sudden favouring of the very few who have user logins (authors or people with very old logins) has been fixed.

    A option in the discussion page “Users must be registered and logged in to comment” got knocked on by accident 19 hours ago. I’ve now turned it back off.

    • Sacha 1.1

      Thank you.

    • Morrissey 1.2

      Thank you! I saw the Word Press logo and thought I was on KiwiBlog.

      Imagine the horror.

      I’m on 999 posts over there, by the way. I promised the boys I’d make my 1,000th a real rip-snorter, but I still haven’t produced. I have a severe case of writer’s block, I’m afraid….

      http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2016/12/general_debate_20_december_2016.html/comment-page-1#comment-1840994

      • lprent 1.2.1

        These days I always seem to have writers block for human level English.

        Fortunately I don’t currently have it in c++, C#, python, … I have had blocks in those in the past and have found that writing English in troll suppression mode has usually sufficient to drive me back to rationality.

        But this drought in English has been ongoing for a while. Perhaps I should start to resurrect writing in my piss-poor human French or German (or even historian Latin) to see if I can kickstart the English habit again.

        Or perhaps just stopping the habit of writing anything on cellphones would help. I have to say that while they are great communication devices, they are piss-poor devices for writing coherently.

        Placebo seem to have nailed it..

      • Anne 1.2.2

        I have a severe case of writer’s block, I’m afraid….

        Not possible. 😮 😮 😮

  2. Colonial Viper 2

    testing

  3. saveNZ 3

    No summer swimming at several Auckland beaches

    “Auckland’s century-old stormwater pipes overflow into the ocean almost every time it rains, and it’s putting many of the city’s beaches out of action.

    It only takes 5mm of rain to fall before the combined sewage and stormwater pipes overflow.

    “The frequency with which it happens in Auckland is a bit of a concern, because it’s 50 times a year,” says Auckland University wastewater engineer Dr Lokesh Padhye.

    A Weekend Herald investigation found in a year, around 1 million cubic metres of wastewater is disposed of in the harbour each year.”

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2017/01/no-summer-swimming-at-several-auckland-beaches.html

    • Ad 3.1

      The important response from Watercare to sewerage spillovers in the Auckland isthmus region is the Central Interceptor project. See the video and explanation in the link below:

      https://www.watercare.co.nz/about-watercare/projects/central-interceptor/Pages/default.aspx

      Back in the day most of the stormwater and wastewater were put into the same pipe and outflow. It’s taken the the best chunk of a century to gradually separate them. The Central Interceptor project – about $1.3b of work – deals with a whole bunch more of the separations. It’s not a full cure, but it’s a big step forward.

      Some of those other places like Piha need to get much stronger support from the local community to get a comprehensive solution. Putting a population that size on septic tanks is ridiculous.

      • All septic tanks are ridiculous, in my view. Disposal of humanure to soil is the best practice. There are ways to do this in all situations (even in a space craft 🙂 and those methods could be developed into an exact and beneficial science, if there was the will to do so. Governments, councils, communities and households are loathe to explore the potential of “earth closets” because as individuals, we think poo is icky.

        • Rosemary McDonald 3.1.1.1

          Billy at his best….

        • lprent 3.1.1.2

          I don’t think that it is a problem with it being icky. More a problem with population densities and geography.

          In Piha the basic soil is a high metal sand that doesn’t foster any kind of conversion into humus. A dog crap dropped on soil can take months to disappear. Furthermore the section sizes aren’t that different from somewhere like Grey Lynn because of the topography which doesn’t provide a lot of room for spreading whatever comes out of an “earth closet”.

          I suspect that they’d have to truck the “night soil” a rather long way away to any place where it’d get a earth breakdown.

          But I think that Ad is rather hoping to get any kind of sewerage system because the pump architecture and costs are rather high.

          What they should do in Piha is to knock half of the houses down. That would reduce the density of septic tanks and the pollution and health risks associated with them.

          • Robert Guyton 3.1.1.2.1

            I take your point, lprent and enjoyed your reference to night soil; there’s a future in collecting and disposal to soil of humanure in communities like Piha, imo. Where soils are sandy and un-lively as those you describe, importing activated soil from elsewhere and using that as a destination for night soil should be considered. Coupled with that would be a change in the diets of the residents but I recognise that is a big ask just now 🙂 Seperating liquid from solid at the site of delivery is necessary too; asking people to learn to separate their stuff was difficult enough when plastic recycling was started, so taking to people about the management of their bodily functions would be a challenge, though not an insurmountable one. Soil organisms had adapted to utilise humanure perfectly and no uv light, oxygenating clever-clogs system devised by humans will ever match them. It’s all about recognising where the best designs and processes come from and that ain’t the drawing board.

          • weka 3.1.1.2.2

            “In Piha the basic soil is a high metal sand that doesn’t foster any kind of conversion into humus. A dog crap dropped on soil can take months to disappear.”

            In the Humanure system and variations, you don’t need soil to make humanure. You can even make it in a wheelie bin if you want. As Robert suggests, human crap is designed to break down with just microbes.

            • Draco T Bastard 3.1.1.2.2.1

              As Robert suggests, human crap is designed to break down with just microbes.

              No, it’s not designed to do that – other organisms have evolved to do that.

              But, still, I’d probably use a treatment plant and then deliver the product from that to the forested hills. Let nature take its course from there fertilising both the forests and the plains beneath them.

              • weka

                Whereas I’d take the pressure off the centralised system by having as much used onsite as possible and where appropriate, and where not appropriate take off site and use elsewhere. Makes the systems more resilient too.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Which means that you need to keep the centralised system.

                  And, no, it doesn’t make them more resilient. Think about it – when was the last time that the sewer system failed so completely that it caused issues? All you’re doing is using more resources to achieve the same end.

                  • weka

                    The last big failure I’m aware of is the Chch2. Some people set up modified humanure systems in response.

                    “All you’re doing is using more resources to achieve the same end.”

                    That depends on how you view it. If you use the humanure to grow trees and biomass locally then it’s a net gain.

                    If you are talking about centralised sewerage that is already in existence, then of course keep it. But it’s hugely wasteful to use potable water to dispose of human waste, and that’s going to be an issue going forward. There’s no problem with running two systems but using the least resource-dependent one the most.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      The last big failure I’m aware of is the Chch2.

                      Which is one of those things that doesn’t happen often enough to warrant all the extra resources going into every house effectively having its own treatment plant.

                      That depends on how you view it.

                      No it doesn’t. It’s most definitely bounded by physical reality.

                      If you use the humanure to grow trees and biomass locally then it’s a net gain.

                      Define locally. To put it another way, most houses don’t have enough land to be fully self-sufficient.

                      There’s no problem with running two systems but using the least resource-dependent one the most.

                      Yes there is because running two systems uses more resources.

          • Ad 3.1.1.2.3

            I’d like the locals to take a cup of cement and agree to Watercare getting a decent comprehensive system in there. Piha locals

          • Ad 3.1.1.2.4

            I’d like the locals to take a cup of cement and agree to Watercare getting a decent comprehensive system in there.
            Piha locals like to stop things.

  4. Morrissey 4

    One good reason to root for the Pittsburgh Steelers today

    At an event the night before his inauguration, Donald Trump shouted out Patriots owner Bob Kraft in the crowd, complimenting him for a “great quarterback” in Tom Brady, and “great coach” in Bill Belichick. Belichick, who wrote a letter to Trump wishing him luck the day before the election, did not want to talk about it.

    http://deadspin.com/bill-belichick-on-trump-mentioning-him-in-speech-weve-1791431753

    • James 4.1

      So support the other team just because the owner supported the candidate you didn’t like.

      That is so petty and pathetic.

      • Morrissey 4.1.1

        No, I don’t know who the Rooneys support. They’re probably Republican, it doesn’t matter. The reason anyone who cares about sporting values should root against the Patriots is because they have a nasty and foolish extreme right wing quarterback, and a coach who grovels to political slimeballs.

        Then of course there’s the whole deflation-of-the-footballs scandal.

        • james 4.1.1.1

          Well dont forget the Steelers with Impedegate (2013) • Steroidgate (1970-2007) • Salarycapgate (2000) • Shouldergate (1978) • PEDSgate (3x since 1991) • Crampgate (2012) • Tampergate (1994: Capers)

          and are recognised as one of the largest cheats in NFL history. But thats OK if you like the owner huh?

          God bless Google. But like all things – a few left wing people in NZ not cheering for a US team in a sport that most NZ does not care about will hardly upset Trump.

          In fact – as a lot of people are saying its this kind of silly petulant behaviour that got him voted in in the first place.

    • Colonial Viper 4.2

      PA. is now a Trump state, and I would guess that a lot of Steelers team members are Trump voters.

      • Morrissey 4.2.1

        PA. is now a Trump state

        You mean the Democrats have lost it for a few years. Trump won’t last, but Pennsylvania will.

        …and I would guess that a lot of Steelers team members are Trump voters.

        Nonsense. The Steelers coach Mike Tomlin is similar to the new Waikato Chiefs coach Colin Cooper: frightened to say anything that might cause offence to loud-mouthed and aggressive white racists. But, in stark contrast to the young Republicans and flag-worshippers like Tom Brady, most NFL players, including the Pittsburgh Steelers, are in fact thoughtful and intelligent…..

        Ramon Foster, the Steelers’ NFLPA representative, said the majority of the players support 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick’s right to protest racial inequality and police brutality during the national anthem.

        http://triblive.com/sports/steelers/11117937-74/johnson-steelers-cockrell

  5. AsleepWhileWalking 5

    Re: Trump *protests*
    “So a bunch of people — most of them women — marched. What the media didn’t show you is who organized those marches and what they stand for. Let me give you an example; specifically, in Washington DC according to a tweet that was uncovered by Gateway Pundit (and which the person involved has since deleted)”

    http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=231774

    • red-blooded 5.1

      AWW, the person in this link is raving and making extreme assertions and leaps.

      Do you think these marches were some kind of endorsement of Sharia Law? That’s ridiculous.

      Perhaps one of the supporters/organisers of one of the marches supports some aspects of Sharia Law – the one shown is about charging interest on loans. That doesn’t mean she unthinkingly endorses all extreme versions of that belief system (ie cliterectomy). There are plenty of people who see themselves as Christian but don’t deny evolution, see homosexuality as a sin or battle to ban abortion.

      BTW, the teaching about charging interest is also an historical Christian view – Antonio and Shylock argue about it in detail in The Merchant of Venice. It arises from the interpretation of a parable about Laban’s sheep.

    • joe90 5.2

      Gateway Pundit

      AKA – the stupidest man on the internet.
      /

    • Colonial Viper 5.3

      Hi AsleepWhileWalking

      Maybe your establishment minded detractors will prefer this link to the New York Times where they report that George Soros the multi-billionaire has links to more than 50 “partner” organisations of the Womens March on Washington D.C.

      In other words, this is all part of a continuing deep state struggle by globalists like Soros to weaken and delegitimise Trump’s new Presidency.

      http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2017/01/20/billionaire-george-soros-has-ties-to-more-than-50-partners-of-the-womens-march-on-washington/

      • Tricledrown 5.3.1

        Trump is antifascist anti communist.
        The latter I suspect gets on your wik.

        • Colonial Viper 5.3.1.1

          Just noting that neither Russia nor China are communist any more – they are State Capitalism / market economy hybrids.

  6. Morrissey 6

    10 GIFs That Will Make You Feel Better About Inauguration Day
    by ANNA MERIAN, Jezebel, Jan. 20, 2017

    Today was a very difficult day for many Americans. Please take a moment and see if these GIFs make you feel a tiny bit better, though?

    1. White supremacist thought leader Richard Spencer getting punched right in his head twice.

    ……

    http://theslot.jezebel.com/10-gifs-that-will-make-you-feel-better-about-inaugurati-1791451682

    • james 6.1

      Now – I think the guy is an asshat – but I dont condone violence and especially do not feel better watching someone being smacked in the head.

      • Morrissey 6.1.1

        Fair enough, james. He was blindsided. Here’s another asshat being hit, even harder, this time entirely within the rules of fair play. I don’t think anyone would do anything but applaud this one….

  7. Paul 7

    Issues more important than discussing whether Obama or Trump had a bigger crowd.

    Teacher shortages in Auckland due to the housing crisis.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/322867/pupils-due-back-but-akl-schools-still-scrambling-to-find-teachers

    • Wensleydale 7.1

      Yes, plenty of opportunities for teachers in our fine metropolis… just so long as they don’t mind dossing down in a cardboard box under Grafton Bridge.

    • Red 7.2

      Yes boss

    • aerobubble 7.3

      National have failed our economy on housing. Of course National general handling of the economy is poor at best, interested in favoring the few, which makes NZ less innovative as the payoff to risk is lowered, the wealthy get the pie nomatter what under National. The mechanism of borrowing off your home to invest in a business is now an age issue, young dont got no home, oldies do.

      Of course Hooten thinks the only thing we should consider when voting in the election, yet to be called, is Winston, or someother outlier distraction. Well, Clinton missed it, the economy of three northern states hurting middle class lifestyles mainly. So anywonder hOoten also does.

      Its the economy of the middle that has been ravaged by tax cut happy politicians fuelling wealth for the weathiest while hurting poor and midle classes. Its a joke when English claims that half dont pay tax, whose fault is that when his policies lower relative incomes of the poorest and middle classes, and hand productivity gains to the wealthiest.

  8. Colonial Viper 8

    CV’s NZ Election Predictions 2017

    I will update these if needed down the track

    Labour/Greens block

    Combined party vote ceiling: 42% (maximum possible, though very unlikely IMO)
    Most likely combined party vote LAB + GR: 35% to 37%
    Party vote floor (again very unlikely, though possible IMO): 33%

    Also:

    1) There is zero chance that Winston will go with Labour/Greens if their combined party vote is under 40%. There is zero chance that LAB/GR can form a government without NZ First.

    2) There is a better than 50/50 chance that National will put Paula Bennett at the top of the ticket. (Clarification: this is speculation on behalf of myself and my political team; I have no direct knowledge of this).

    3) Labour list MP job security is VERY sensitive to any downward move in party vote cf. 2014. I am somewhat surprised given this circumstance that Little did not secure Rongotai or Mt Albert as his own seat as having no electorate MP experience may be a line of attack used by National.

    4) The Gareth Morgan Party will waste a large number of votes which would otherwise go to Labour or Greens. In several ways, his is the new New Zealand Party.

    5) Overall, 2:1 chance of a NAT win this year, which will move towards 3:1 if Bennett eventually gets put at the top of the ticket. The Labour Leadership team was geared up to fight Key, their approaches all have to be rethought now, and with Bennett they have even fewer strategies to oppose her than English. (Bennett needs a couple months of intensive coaching first).

    6) If Bennett is put at the top of the ticket, National’s marketing pitch will be: working class beneficiary of Tainui decent made good, perfect as NZ’s first Maori PM and NZ’s first Maori Woman PM.

    Reference – read this puff piece and tell me they aren’t positioning her hard already with clear prepared lines and spin.

    “I didn’t have a job and it looked pretty bleak actually and I reckon it’s a credit to this country that there are opportunities and you get a second chance.

    “And if you step up to them and then step in New Zealanders reward you for that hard work.”

    Ms Bennett says those values drove her to the National Party…

    Ms Bennett, of Tainui descent, spoke of her Maori heritage saying “I know where I come from and what it means”.

    “I am incredibly proud of my Maori heritage and where I come from,” she said.

    “Like a lot of New Zealanders I grew up certainly knowing that I was Tanui, certainly recognising that particularly through my grandmother in the Waikato.

    “So I know where I come from and I know what that means but I also grew up in a household that didn’t speak Maori and that was kind of focused on being a New Zealander.”

    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/reflective-paula-bennett-shares-her-story-bleak-time-unemployed-solo-mum-nationals-deputy-leader

    • garibaldi 8.1

      I can see where you are coming from with these predictions CV and I don’t like it !!
      Do you really think Paula is the answer? Also, won’t the TOP take votes off the Right as well as the Left?

      • Colonial Viper 8.1.1

        1) I think that with Bennett, National have a crystal clear PR case to put to the country – in essence, working class background, beneficiary, experienced Cabinet Minister, and now the first Maori Woman Prime Minister of New Zealand. In this way National could use the culture of identity politics promulgated by the left, against the left.

        2) TOP: the people attracted to TOP will be people who want an alternative to the two big parties (and damn if they’ll ever vote for the “hippies”). It’s certainly up for discussion as to whether or not these voters will be predominantly disaffected Labour voters or disaffected National voters.

        3) With Key gone and the social conservatism of English and Bennett, I think most of the Conservative Party vote might fold back into National. If so, that’s a couple of percent boost there for the NATs.

        • garibaldi 8.1.1.1

          Thanks CV. So you think it is only lefties that don’t like Paula pulling up the ladder behind her?

          • Nic the NZer 8.1.1.1.1

            TOP party appeal is hard to guess at. I see the ideas of Gareth Morgan as essentially still mainstream economics (e.g if we just tweek our tax policies a bit the the market will solve all the underlying problems causing inequity and such). But this idea is likely to appeal to many on the Left and I read 7.3 above as the opinion of just such a potential convert. I would not be surprised if lots of prior Labour supporters give TOP a punt.

    • adam 8.2

      Do you know any history? The New Zealand party took votes off the government of the day. But then again, I suppose you are all post truth now?

      Your diatribe is actually just spin for the national party, and holds nothing for working people. So I take it you are embracing your inner middle class prat?

      You were not the only one who picked trump would win once the dnc went crazy, but you are the only one who has gone full man love of trump.

      So as you are not interested in the hopes and dreams of working people anymore, why don’t you go help whale oil? Nothing you write talks to the people who did not vote, nothing you now rant about actually helps working people, it is nothing more than vainglorious gasconade.

      p.s if you come back with anything trump, or the left are with their head in the sand. I’ll just know you off into lala land. Because i’ll say this only once, organise or get out of the way.

      • Muttonbird 8.2.1

        CV hates working people. Presumably that’s why he was thrown out of NZ Labour, Dunedin South.

        CV hates working people so much he proposes doubling the price of fuel overnight.

      • weka 8.2.2

        “You were not the only one who picked trump would win once the dnc went crazy, but you are the only one who has gone full man love of trump.”

        This.

        “p.s if you come back with anything trump, or the left are with their head in the sand. I’ll just know you off into lala land. Because i’ll say this only once, organise or get out of the way.”

        And this.

        CV is has been banned for 4 weeks. Perhaps we should get on and organise while we have some breathing space 🙂

        • Muttonbird 8.2.2.1

          Damn.

          I was intending to reply to CV’s political predictions post by making a prediction myself; that CV would suffer a lengthy ban from the Standard for anarchic, anti-progressive trolling.

          It seems CV was too quick with his anti-worker trolling and I was too slow with my prediction.

        • adam 8.2.2.2

          Organise – Indeed!

      • Nic the NZer 8.2.3

        Adam, are you aware if CVs suggested National party strategy is *the* National party strategy you have just engaged in shooting the messenger, and demanded that nobody should discuss the election positioning of the Government in an election year. You should stop attacking people who are trying to assist with your understanding of the political landscape!

    • Muttonbird 8.3

      I will update these if needed down the track.

      Not sure you’ll have the opportunity.

      I predict multiple suspensions for CV on the Standard this year for repeated and petulant trolling of socially conscious opinions.

      Not sure CV has ever gotten over Phil Twyford’s call for data on Chinese speculative purchasing of Auckland property.

      It seems to have consumed him down there in Dunedin South.

  9. The Chairman 9

    Davos 2017 – A Basic Income for All: Dream or Delusion?

  10. Sacha 10

    Plenty of discussion about the substance rather than the distraction in this post and its links: /starting-out-with-an-obvious-lie/

    Even the big US media outlets acknowledged the lie in their headlines, to their credit. But they will need to figure out a whole different way to cover this administration. Look, even the Auckland Herald has a story about that: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11787056

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • Sacha 10.1

      From the original post:

      And there is not a single major media outlet that will promote or encourage anything that might hold the potential to challenge institutional power and authority. So yes, the likes of yesterdays marches and protests will get covered. But only in ways and to an extent that ensures everything remains safe and in its proper place.

      So today, I see some headlines about audience or viewing figures. And I see opinion pieces and analytical wankery on what it all means or might mean or doesn’t mean. That, apparently, is where the ball is. And so that’s where we’re all meant to rush headlong to.

      Please do let me know how my reply is off-topic or irrelevant to that, so I can avoid the same error again?

      • Bill 10.1.1

        The first para is not about some tittle-tattle about a dishonest politician. You really think, even for a second, that a lying spokesperon or politician is in any was a threat to institutional power or authority?

        For fucks sake, that kind of shit can be (and is) analysed and turned over, buried and dug up again to be poked at, precisely because it is utterly meaningless in terms of power or in terms of challenges to it.

        Meanwhile, stuff that could (if reported thoroughly and honestly) lead to institutional power being seriously challenged or undermined (such as major follow up reports on the marches and protests) is swept under the carpet.

        It seems you completely missed the point of the post. Shit happens.

  11. Sabine 11

    You need to ask Donald Trump, Kellyanne Conway, and the Trump administration Spokes person as to why they would lie about crowd sizes, and why would it matter to them (comparing dick sizes is usually something blokes do, and this reminds me a bit like that….mine is bigger then yours 🙂 blablahbalh ) .

    Cause the women and their supporters showed up, at their expense, took days of work, spend hours in trains/busses/cars etc, braved the same shit weather etc. as did the Trump supporters.

    Or maybe the showing of supporters was just a showing of the actually numbers of support each candidate got in the End.

    I mean D. Trump won by 80.000 votes in three states to carry the electoral College, so one could say that 250.000 coming to his installment was a good shot.

    Hillary Clinton got almost three million more votes by individual voters then DTrump, so the size of 3.3 million would reflect that no?

    As for what its good? I don’t know, should we just do away with Protests/Rallies so as to not upset the nice people?

    Maybe its only got to do with this : ” Good girls go to heaven but bad girls go every where ”

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • Colonial Viper 11.1

      so one could say that 250.000 coming to his installment was a good shot.

      It was probably around 600,000. Only a small fraction of Obama’s turnout in 2009 of course.

  12. Morrissey 12

    According to Trump’s new press secretary Sean Spicer, there are more than 100,000 people in this photo….

    http://previews.123rf.com/images/paha_l/paha_l1203/paha_l120302479/12489119-Rows-of-green-seats-in-an-empty-stadium-Focus-on-front-seats-Stock-Photo.jpg

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  13. Morrissey 13

    Sean Spicer is pretty terrible, but it appears he’s actually
    better than the guy Trump first chose as his “communications director”

    This is not a parody of a reality show, I swear….

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4064608/Donald-Trump-s-communications-director-Jason-Miller-quits-amid-sex-scandal-rumors.html

  14. Skeptic 15

    Sorry Bill, but I found this opinion piece asinine, short-sighted and very trivializing. If I do you a disservice by saying you don’t have much faith in the democratic process, then I apologize. I am persuaded after following the American media, both pre and post Rupert Murdoch, that they do uncover the truth – even if eventually. When someone as stupid and ignorant and arrogant as Trump, doesn’t even bother to hide his failings, but instead tries to re-term the word “liar” with “fake news” and “alternative reality”, then your football analogy is trite. Trump is telling you the game isn’t football, but baseball, and regrettably you seem to be defending the indefensible. Because this US election is so far removed from the traditional political model, largely because of Russian cyber-warfare and a partisan FBI director’s shenanigans, a megalomaniac has gained the White House. I don’t doubt for a minute, that the full weight of the American Press will investigate and publish, nor that that saner heads will prevail, both in the US Senate and House. Look for an early impeachment, with the media doing what it’s supposed to do – shine a light on the truth for all to see. That’s democracy at work. Despite what economists like to think, politics encompasses economics, not the other way round.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • Nick 15.1

      @Skeptic – The Russian thing and FBI shenanigans were not the main factors of Trump being elected, rather it was the DNC who decided to choose Clinton over Bernie Sanders and decided to rig the outcome of the primary. It certainly wasnt “the mainstream media doing what it’s supposed to do – shine a light on the truth for all to see” – democracy wasn’t working….. the few media corporations (6 of them I think) are hugely corrupted themselves. The US Senate and the House are ‘owned’ by the Corporations and Banks, I doubt “saner heads will prevail”. Ironically it may be Trump that ends up blowing up the media corruption……my 10c worth.

      • Red 15.1.1

        Nic you are in la la land if you believe sanders a socialist would have won election. A socialist can’t even win in Nz and we have a lot stonger left bent or affliction than the US The issue I see is both democrats and republicans had terrible candidates ( including sanders) if democrats had put up any one half middle ground ie Bieden etc they would have strolled in

      • Skeptic 15.1.2

        Sorry Nick, but as my pseudonym implies, I don’t and never have subscribed to conspiracy theories – all of my tertiary studies have settled beyond any shadow of doubt that so-called conspiracies deflate in direct proportion to the number of people purportedly involved – and therefore are, by and large, figments of the imaginations of deluded souls believing in Easter Bunny, Santa Claus and the Man in the Moon. Rather than a huge conspiracy involving thousands of ordinary motivated members of the DNC, and the hundreds of thousands making up the US media, all of whom are supposedly acting in secret to undermine Bernie Sanders, and the tens of thousands of people supporting and assisting the elected officials of one the most open states on the planet – again supposedly acting secret to advance the aims of the “Corporations & Banks” (numbering in their millions if you include all their employees) and not one of these is going to leak the big secret – yeah right! Sorry mate, but the real “secret” is that although it takes a while, ulterior motives will always be shown the light of day. Blowhards and egotists are always revealed for what they really are. And despite it’s very tarnished reputation, and self censorship depending on its editorial slant, the US media is mostly very, very good at uncovering facts. Given the release of various documents under the US FOI Act, and comparing these with back copies of newspapers of the day, their facts are surprisingly accurate even if their opinions are not. I think Trump is due to find this unpalatable truth out very shortly.

        • adam 15.1.2.1

          Are you saying there have never been conspiracies Skeptic? Because it seems you are, and that is a very dangerous position.

          • Andre 15.1.2.1.1

            Nope. Skeptic is saying conspiracies almost always get found out. The more people involved, the quicker it’s found out (on average). So if there had been some kind of conspiracy beyond the clumsy fumblings revealed by the DNC e-mails, we can be very confident we would have found out by now.

            • adam 15.1.2.1.1.1

              Nope he does not, he categorically states “I don’t and never have subscribed to conspiracy theories”. Then move’s towards a dnc consisting of thousands, ummmm on what planet? The DNC has some 300 odd members, but in real terms the committee is run by sub-committees. With power held firmly in the fundraising and election steering committees. So sure if it was thousands, fine. Hundreds we’d even get a feel for it. But 12 people, it’s possible they can keep their mouth shut for years. So confidence we could find out, nope, that is just a theory as well.

              • Andre

                A conspiracy is different to “conspiracy theory”.

                “A conspiracy theory is an attempt to explain a perceived real-world occurrence through the actions of a secretive, usually evil and very selfish group. Not all conspiracy theories are wrong, but if the theory requires greater suspension of disbelief than random chance would to explain the occurrence,”

                from http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_conspiracy_theories

                • adam

                  So the theory is the DNC helped h.r.c get the nomination by making it difficult for anyone else to run, the use of super delegates, and the by timing of elections. Then the media helped by ignoring other canditates, or extensively talking about h.r.c and her suport by super delegates.

                  So that is the conspiracy theory as it stands. I did not think it was that far out, or weird, and actually did a good job explaining what happen, but ,once again it is only a thoery. Much like your possition Andre, you are just offering a conspiracy theory as well. That everyone who looked dirty was clean. I find that harder to belive.

        • Nick 15.1.2.2

          Skeptic, Trump is president and the Media were big influencers in that outcome. The fact parts seemed minor. The sensationalism was front and center. US media dropped the ball.

    • Bill 15.2

      I’m thinking you missed the point of the piece Skeptic.

      I’ve no idea why you’re banging on about ‘uncovering the truth’ when the piece clearly wasn’t about that…or about “fake news” (a term coined by Liberals that’s well and truly biting them on the arse now).

      And the football analogy wasn’t about what Trumps says or wants or any fucking thing to do with Trump…it was about mindlessly running around to “achieve” something with no accompanying strategy or eye to the bigger picture or thought to exactly what it is that’s been done or what might be achieved by it – jist get the ba – get the ba! Kick it. Kick it! Kick it!!

      Anyway.

      Cyber warfare? Fuck off. Irrelevant to the piece.
      FBI directors? Fuck off. Irrelevant to the piece.

      Investigations, publishing findings, saner heads, impeachment?!

      Did you even read the fucking words I posted? Or did you just imagine a springboard and go all ‘bouncey, bouncey’ dive, dive?

      The only reason I’m not kicking your comment to Open Mike is because (unfortunately) it’s sat as a piece of distracting smash for three hours now and has essentially already derailed discussion.

      edit – Actually. Fuck it. Gone.

      • swordfish 15.2.1

        “jist get the ba – get the ba!”

        Lovely bit of Scots dialect there, Bill. Very Partick Thistle.

  15. adam 16

    Abby Martin getting close to what people are feeling on the ground, protesting yesterday. More to come, this is just a teaser.

  16. The Chairman 17

    Naomi Klein on Trump Election: “This is a Corporate Coup d’État”
    https://www.democracynow.org/2017/1/20/naomi_klein_on_trump_election_this

  17. fisiani 18

    Labour and Greens combined will be less then 40%. NZF will be less than 10% How can there ever be another Labour led government? This is the 21st century. Labour governments were a feature of last century.

  18. Muttonbird 19

    I know most RWNJs here will be upset that the anarchist CV has been banned for the first time of many this year. But with that first banning, it is time for the rest of us socially conscious people to celebrate that we might for once discuss a change in government on policy rather than strategy.

    • Carolyn_nth 19.1

      Oh, please, yes. Seems too many on left wing blogs and other sites focus on strategy and treating politics as a team sport.

      • james 19.1.1

        Sadly too many think of it as a not just a team sport, but as a contact sport.

        There is a lot of attacking the person / or messenger.

    • weka 19.2

      hmm, I think strategy is important, but can you please explain what you mean so I can see if we mean the same thing?

    • McFlock 19.3

      Lol
      Didn’t he only come back from self imposed exile a day or two back?

      Must have wanted to boost his right wing street cred with a ban.

  19. infused 20

    This is pathetic.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

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