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Open Mike 23/09/2016

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 23rd, 2016 - 227 comments
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227 comments on “Open Mike 23/09/2016 ”

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  1. Manuka AOR 1
    23 September 2016 at 6:13 am

    The calls for assassination:

  2. I Feel Love 2
    23 September 2016 at 6:40 am

    The private company that runs Dunedin’s public transport (Go Bus/Ngai Tahu) are importing overseas workers to drive their buses? According to a letter in the ODT yesterday anyway.

    From an article earlier in the year “NZ Bus paid $20.97 an hour to union drivers in Wellington, going up to $21.25 at the end of the year, he said. But Go Bus paid about $16.02 in Dunedin, and up to $18 in Auckland. ”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/81527792/Bus-drivers-union-threatens-industrial-action-on-a-scale-never-seen-before

    • TC 2.1
      23 September 2016 at 8:49 am

      Hardly a surprise as major iwi share the same values the maori party endorse in their support of the shonky regime.

      They will hide behind the layers of management and corporate dribble if challenged.

    • Nessalt 2.2
      23 September 2016 at 5:03 pm

      I wonder if the rates paid are a function of demand for bus services? that would be a novel idea wouldn’t it

    • Draco T Bastard 3.1
      23 September 2016 at 9:04 am

      That is good. We’re still going to have to seriously decrease flying from our present high use though. There’s no way that enough bio-fuels can be grown to support it.

      • TheExtremist 3.1.1
        23 September 2016 at 9:41 am

        Bio-Fuels are a terrible idea. We already destroy enough land for farming so we don’t need to start clear-cutting forests to fuel our various devices too.

        • Andre 3.1.1.1
          23 September 2016 at 10:02 am

          Yeah bio-ethanol from corn or sugar and bio-diesel from oil-seeds are really crap ideas. But bio-fuels from sources like algae, agricultural and forestry waste have much less of a downside. Given that I doubt we will make the cultural changes necessary to give up global long-haul aviation, and there’s no technology in sight that could substitute for the energy density of liquid fuels required for long-haul aviation, this looks like a reasonable step forward.

          • Chuck 3.1.1.1.1
            23 September 2016 at 1:32 pm

            Spot on Andre, bio fuels from forestry wood waste etc will be able to start replacing fossil fuels in the near future (within the next 10 years).

            Producing bio oil is an easy enough exercise via pyrolysis. The trick is to upgrade the bio oil to have similar properties as fossil fuel, while making the process commercially viable.

            Lanza Tech has recently announced progress via there process for bio fuels. And I know of a bunch of other companies making very good progress as well.

        • Draco T Bastard 3.1.1.2
          23 September 2016 at 4:51 pm

          It’s possible to grow the organisms that would be the basis for the bio-fuels in the ocean. So it doesn’t use land it also helps pull CO2 out of the atmosphere.

      • Andre 3.1.2
        23 September 2016 at 9:57 am

        Electric and/or hydrogen could feasibly take over for shorter flights – maybe up to 1500km. So bio-fuels would then allow some long-haul aviation even in a zero-fossil future.

        • Colonial Viper 3.1.2.1
          23 September 2016 at 11:09 am

          Air travel needs to be heavily curtailed. That’s all there is to it. None of these fuel alternatives will be ready in time.

          • Chuck 3.1.2.1.1
            23 September 2016 at 2:09 pm

            “Air travel needs to be heavily curtailed”

            Will never happen CV, so we must look for better alternatives to fuel the planes.

            And the alternatives are closer to being ready than you think.

            • Draco T Bastard 3.1.2.1.1.1
              23 September 2016 at 4:42 pm

              Will never happen CV, so we must look for better alternatives to fuel the planes.

              There are no such alternatives in the foreseeable future and thus air travel must be curtailed. This is real economics and so you don’t actually get a say in it.

              • Chuck …
                23 September 2016 at 5:19 pm

                “There are no such alternatives in the foreseeable future and thus air travel must be curtailed”

                Draco is your comment above based on any particular observation or experience? For example are you involved in the R&D of bio-oil for use as a transport fuel (land, sea, air)?

                My work allows me close access to alternative / green fuels…and I can confirm that bio-oil for use as a fuel oil (to replace medium and heavy fossil fuel oil) is doable right now.

                As for a transport fuel, bio-oil can be upgraded now as well. However the problem is its uneconomical to do so, but will not be for too much longer as the technology is refined.

                The recent AirNZ / Virgin Aust RFI for jet bio-fuel attracted a lot of interest. And will enable a bio-fuel industry to proceed in Australasia, underpinned by the volumes required by the above airlines.

                And its 2nd and 3rd generation bio-fuels.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  23 September 2016 at 6:30 pm

                  My work allows me close access to alternative / green fuels…and I can confirm that bio-oil for use as a fuel oil (to replace medium and heavy fossil fuel oil) is doable right now.

                  Yes, I’m quite aware that it’s available now. The problem, that I’ve read a couple of articles on over the years, is the inability to scale it up to support the present demand.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  23 September 2016 at 10:07 pm

                  Air travel is going to be heavily curtailed, one way or another, within 15 years-ish.

                • Stuart Munro …
                  23 September 2016 at 10:13 pm

                  Cellulosic butanol is one of the best – distributes through existing fuel infrastructure and burns safely in existing engines.

        • alwyn 3.1.2.2
          23 September 2016 at 12:17 pm

          “up to 1500km”
          That is very consoling. I shall be grateful for that information when we come down in the Tasman when only two thirds of the way from Wellington to Sydney.

  4. Manuka AOR 4
    23 September 2016 at 7:33 am

    Pesticide companies’ own secret/ unpublished research found serious harm to honey bees:
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/sep/22/pesticide-manufacturers-own-tests-reveal-serious-harm-to-honeybees

    “Unpublished field trials by pesticide manufacturers show their products cause serious harm to honeybees at high levels, leading to calls from senior scientists for the companies to end the secrecy which cloaks much of their research.”

    • Cinny 4.1
      23 September 2016 at 7:47 am

      Massey is doing a study on the kids in Motueka re the effects of pesticides. Many of the young kids at school were asked to be part of the study.

      I feel sorry for the islanders working the orchards, it’s not very OSH friendly for them. They should be part of the study as well.

      Save the bees, grow as many bee loving plants as you can, most bee friendly plants are flowers, the end result is a beautiful garden, who would not want that ?

      • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1
        23 September 2016 at 9:11 am

        Well, it’s not actually that hard to have your own hives if you’ve got a garden and you get fantastic, fresh honey.

        It does require maintaining standards of course but that’s normal for anything really (The abnormality and that which causes so much pain in society is the RWNJs demand that we don’t have any standards).

    • Draco T Bastard 4.2
      23 September 2016 at 9:06 am

      All research needs to be done by public companies and available to the public to ensure that such secrecy as this doesn’t cause us harm as recent history proves that it does.

  5. Cinny 5
    23 September 2016 at 7:43 am

    Marlborough Council to investigate the “Whale Blubber” leak. All whom were present at the meeting that was ‘leaked’ to fat boy were asked to sign a declaration stating that they did not leak details of the meeting.

    “But two councillors, Jessica Bagge and Jamie Arbuckle, have refused to sign statutory declarations issued to all councillors as part of an ongoing Marlborough District Council investigation.”

    You can’t claim that you were not responsible for the leak then refuse to sign a declaration confirming it… makes you look guilty as sin. JS

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/marlborough-express/news/84562873/two-marlborough-councillors-refusing-to-sign-statutory-declaration-over-whale-oil-leak-named

    • James 5.1
      23 September 2016 at 8:16 am

      What’s his weight got to do with it. Think you can make comments without going on the persons weight?

      Or is that only acceptable if you are insulting a man or someone with different political views?

      • Stuart Munro 5.1.1
        23 September 2016 at 8:24 am

        And of course the Whale is such a scrupulous respecter of persons…

        • James 5.1.1.1
          23 September 2016 at 8:57 am

          Two wrongs dont make a right.

          If fairness – he is trying to improve his blog. There are generally more insults and horrid things said on the standard in the comments these days than there is on his blog.

          Thats not supporting what his blog used to be like – but giving credit for what is happening now.

          • I Feel Love 5.1.1.1.1
            23 September 2016 at 9:43 am

            Care to address the topic? Whaleoil publishing leaked & private information? 2 wrongs don’t make a right? SO no more ‘those emails were stolen’ whines from the feral blogger? Pfft, doubt it.

            • Cinny 5.1.1.1.1.1
              23 September 2016 at 10:37 am

              🙂

            • Puckish Rogue 5.1.1.1.1.2
              23 September 2016 at 12:36 pm

              Care to address the topic? Nicky Hager publishing leaked & private information? 2 wrongs don’t make a right? SO no more ‘those emails were stolen’ whines from the feral blogger? Pfft, doubt it.

              • McFlock …
                23 September 2016 at 1:06 pm

                Yes people here defend hagers use of emails out of public interest. Slater was outraged by it… then copies the behaviour.

            • Chuck 5.1.1.1.1.3
              23 September 2016 at 2:03 pm

              “Care to address the topic?”

              You are confused I Feel Love.

              The Marlborough District Council leak was from a whistle blower (a Councilor or employee). I would of thought our left leaning friends here would of been horrified that the Council is now conducting a witch hunt for said whistle blower.

              While Slater was hacked by a third party.

          • Stuart Munro 5.1.1.1.2
            23 September 2016 at 10:52 am

            Considering the frequency with with which you and other RWNJ trolls utter offensive and ill-founded personal abuse of Little I see no reason not to shame personifications of corruption, greed and sloth like the Whale and Gerry Brownlee.

            Your interest is not sincere – when you are assiduous in disciplining your fellow trolls for abuse we may reconsider.

            • James 5.1.1.1.2.1
              23 September 2016 at 12:46 pm

              Care to give any example of where I have ever given put any personal abuse against Little?

              I actively try never to do it to anyone (may have had a slip here and there – but in general – I try to be polite to people on here). Not that I get the same back mind.

              • Stuart Munro …
                23 September 2016 at 1:55 pm

                You have to do a little better than that – you made an attack on a local over fatshaming – show us your sincerity by pointing out where you did the same to a fellow concern troll – or where you condemned the Whale directly for any of his many grossly offensive slurs – that on the dead west coast boy for example. Otherwise you’re just special pleading.

                • James …
                  23 September 2016 at 4:48 pm

                  I dont need to do anything.

                  I have been consistant in pointing out the name calling on this blog. I didnt make an attack – if you consider what I wrote one – then you must be feeling very sensitive.

                  I have commented on this several times – from women being called a bitch – to references to peoples weight, and also raising issue with comments like a poster telling people to go hang themselves.

                  I also shared a story of a family member who was self harming and threatening suicide because of bulling (both physical and online). As I said then, and I will again now – I hope that others do not have to go thru the heartbreak, stress and fear of the damage that this causes.

                  TRP mod commented agreeing and that they are trying to improve this – without damaging robust debate.

                  So – I can back up my sincerity by being consistent.

                  Here is a challenge to you – why dont you be part of a solution and try stopping abuse when you see it instead of being and enabler and calling out people who actually try.

              • Matty WilderDobbs …
                23 September 2016 at 4:14 pm

                And as far as the reference to weight …. agreed not such a good idea.
                HOWEVER, perhaps one of the reasons is that such a reference often goes hand in hand with laziness. Not unloik JFK’s language mangler machine. Diction is lazy, language is based on learned spin and slogans dreamed up by spin meisters, – lazy mind – ideologically driven, absent of critical thought.
                Smart flabby arsed attitude.

                Oh you HATER Matty! How very dare you!
                She’d probably have just been better to use the blubber’s own spin and call him out for what he is:
                FERAL ((especially of an animal) in a wild state, especially after escape from captivity or domestication.)

          • framu 5.1.1.1.3
            23 September 2016 at 12:23 pm

            “Thats not supporting what his blog used to be like – but giving credit for what is happening now.”

            i fail to see what relevance any cleaning up of comments has to do with the fact hes still running smear campaigns

            talking about just the comments section while ignoring what WO actually does is a massive red herring

      • Cinny 5.1.2
        23 September 2016 at 8:36 am

        Slater has picked on me before, published a photo of me on his blog when I requested that he did not. His trolls slammed me for it and as i defended my actions of a single woman protest against Key in Nelson, on his blog in an intelligent and factual manner I was bullied and then blocked.

        There is a big difference between debating political views and bullying, and WE ALL know what Slater does best and it sure isn’t debating. My description of him is factual.

        Have a dead cat, I’m more interested and what is going on at the Marlborough Council chambers.

      • Gabby 5.1.3
        23 September 2016 at 12:58 pm

        Fat Cambo loves the cut and thrust of personal abuse, well, one side of it anyway. Maybe he looks up from stamping head to have a wee sweaty cry about the mean boys and girls, but I doubt it.

    • Ianmac 5.2
      23 September 2016 at 9:02 am

      Colin King exMP, is a contender for Mayoralty in Blenheim.
      He is an “acquaintance” of one Mr Lusk, a “friend” of Cameron Slater who earlier this year was in Blenheim to “assist” aspiring candidates.
      Cameron Slater’s use of the leaked recording seemed aimed at damaging the top Mayoral candidate Mr Leggett.
      Mr King’s daughter is a Councillor I believe. I think her name is Jessica Bagge who refused to sign the statutory declaration to absolve her of being the leaker.

      Just wondering if there are connections?

      • alwyn 5.2.1
        23 September 2016 at 9:41 am

        I’ve met Grant Robertson a few times.
        Does that make me a closet commie or something similar?
        Does that mean people shouldn’t talk to me because I might pass on their deepest, darkest secrets to the Opposition?

        • Puckish Rogue 5.2.1.1
          23 September 2016 at 10:47 am

          Yes

        • mac1 5.2.1.2
          23 September 2016 at 12:06 pm

          alwyn, when you spoke to Grant Robertson a few months ago at a seminar on how to go about running local political campaigns targeted at ‘sympathetic’ candidates, did you talk about opposing in-house meetings? And then, having talked about these meetings, lo and behold did a release of a recording of a in-house, public-excluded meeting happen, months later at the time voting papers were distributed?

          I believe what you are talking about- meeting, having a chat- is very different, and an attempt to minimise what is a very serious breach of councillor ethics and trust, and having huge consequences for mayor, council, staff and the public.

          • alwyn 5.2.1.2.1
            23 September 2016 at 12:22 pm

            “alwyn, when you spoke to Grant Robertson a few months ago at a seminar on how to go about running local political campaigns targeted at ‘sympathetic’ candidates”.

            That really is news to me. He can’t have invited me because I haven’t heard of that activity of his before.Should you have told me that Grant ran such a seminar? Sounds terrible to me and I am surprised that you allowed such a damaging story about Grant’s activities to leak.

            • mac1 5.2.1.2.1.1
              23 September 2016 at 1:02 pm

              alwyn, I think you understand my intention that for Grant Robertson you should read Simon Lusk as the real persona of my story……………

      • mac1 5.2.2
        23 September 2016 at 9:54 am

        Ianmac, Colin King’s daughter is Cr Laressa Shenfield. Jessica Bagge is a retiring (that is, she is leaving Council!) councillor with a long-term feud with the outgoing mayor.

        She refused on principle. Both councillors who refused to sign the declaration, Jamie Arbuckle and Jessica Bagge, have denied sending the tape to Cameron Slater.
        What is noticeable, though, is by refusing to sign the declaration, they don’t have to answer the second part which addresses whether they know who did the leak.

        I think you’re right to factor in the role of Simon Lusk into the affair as he is connected to both Slater and some
        right-wing council candidates here who attended his seminar. Lusk is concerned to obtain control of Councils by suitable, right wing candidates.

        There is another question that concerns me, as well as the poisoning effect upon trust of Council by the public, trust within Council between councillors and staff, trust
        between councillors, and trust between councillors and Mayor.

        That is bad enough, but what concerns me is the distinct and shadowy possibility that behind the Council shenanigans, behind Slater and Lusk, is money- money
        that wants a compliant Council to allow further treatment of Marlborough as a third world style economy, complete with low wages, slave labour and extraction of primary industry resources, like wine, dairy, timber and seafood, and profits out of the region away to Auckland and overseas.

        • Cinny 5.2.2.1
          23 September 2016 at 10:02 am

          Ty for the info, much appreciated and well said. I’ve often heard that Slater has connections in Blenheim

      • Anne 5.2.3
        23 September 2016 at 10:11 am

        The plot thickens. Thank-you Ianmac and mac1. Slater lost the National Party DP contract so he’s moved into Local Bodies.

        Yes mac1. Follow the money. Is the local media following the story and getting the true facts out to the public?

        • mac1 5.2.3.1
          23 September 2016 at 11:04 am

          Yes, Anne, there are many stories about the LEAK. Stuff and the Marlborough Express web sites carry many stories. What I wrote above is of course conjecture, and while there are questions that need answering, the real facts are still not fully known.

          Simon Lusk and his seminar can be researched in the same two web sites- who attended, who spoke, its purpose.

          • ianmac 5.2.3.1.1
            23 September 2016 at 12:23 pm

            Another curious thing is the way in which Colin King resigned from Parliament. Was it Lusk who was involved with King out and Smith replaced in, as a sort of deal involving Mayorship?
            Nah. Just kidding.

            • mac1 5.2.3.1.1.1
              23 September 2016 at 12:47 pm

              I think there is a connection, but one which involves egos primarily. Search for the simple answer- women, land, money, power, ambition.

              Colin King’s advertising slogan for the mayoralty, “Ambitious for Marlborough”, is delightfully ambiguous.

      • ianmac 5.2.4
        23 September 2016 at 12:19 pm

        Thanks Mac1. Jessica Bagge is not Colin King’s daughter. I withdraw and apologise Jessica.

  6. Colonial Viper 6
    23 September 2016 at 8:00 am

    National Guard called out in continuing Charlotte, North Carolina riots sparked by another police shooting of a black man. The PD refuses to release the video footage.

    Charlotte is a city with strong incomes and jobs, and often regarded as one of the best places in the US to live.

    That such a city can spiral out of control is a lesson in why so many Americans think the USA is on the wrong path.

    • gsays 6.1
      23 September 2016 at 8:16 am

      In a nutshell this explains the popularity of trump.

      Voters aren’t going to vote FOR trump as such, more voting for a change.

      Whether that change occurs is another story.

    • joe90 6.2
      23 September 2016 at 9:01 am

      That such a city can spiral out of control is a lesson in why so many Americans think the USA is on the wrong path.

      .

      yeah nah

      .

      My uncle stood there still without blinking. “Yeah, you’re right,” he finally said. “But if Obama is still talking, that means they ain’t kill him. If they killed him, we likely to all be dead. Sound like a win to me.”

      http://www.thefader.com/2016/09/19/my-mississippi-pledge-kiese-laymon

      http://www.kieselaymon.com/

      • Colonial Viper 6.2.1
        23 September 2016 at 11:12 am

        Hi joe90, other protestors/police have now been seriously harmed in the disturbances.

        I don’t expect someone like you to pay attention to the mood of ordinary people on the ground, but I do expect that reality on the ground is going to give Trump a real chance of winning North Carolina.

    • alwyn 6.3
      23 September 2016 at 12:09 pm

      There was an interesting article in the July 16 issue of the Economist on police interactions with black, and white people.
      It was a report on a study done be an Afro-American Harvard academic Roland Fryer.
      He found that black men were more likely to be subject to non-lethal use of force.
      However, in an admittedly limited study, he found that black suspects were LESS likely to be shot, fatally or otherwise, than non-black ones.
      The assumption that US cops casually shoot black men more readily that non-blacks does not appear to be based on evidence.
      I’m sorry I cannot post a link to the article. Perhaps some one else can locate it on-line.

  7. James 7
    23 September 2016 at 8:20 am

    http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11713393

    Russell Normans not overly happy with Little at the moment. And given forest and bird are writing to him as well we can assume Kevin Hague isn’t going to be in a supportive position.

    either way looks like little is bumbling another opportunity where the mates haven’t done the best of jobs.

    • Cinny 7.1
      23 September 2016 at 8:41 am

      Lolz the government says they will review their position and everything is peachy. The next PM says he wants to review his position and you call him out for bumbling? Dude, sharpen up.

      Go check out RT’s review of the UN debate and the full reality of Kerrys claims. I think you will find that more interesting and topical. Shame the NZ media doesn’t do more ‘fact checking’

      Here i find a link, it’s fascinating what RT says compared with the likes of MSM, or the Herald.

      https://www.rt.com/news/360271-us-fact-checking-moscow/

      • James 7.1.1
        23 September 2016 at 9:00 am

        So Greenpeace and forrest and bird etc are all wrong. Good to know.

        • Cinny 7.1.1.1
          23 September 2016 at 9:03 am

          Appears to me it is still being discussed, besides I thought the Government was in control… what Little has to say on the matter.

          “I do not believe that when they have a Treaty Negotiations Minister as talented as Chris Finlayson, they cannot come up with a creative solution to the issue. I simply do not accept that. But if they are so incompetent and have mishandled it so badly they are now prepared to give up on it, that sits firmly with John Key.”

    • Robert Guyton 7.2
      23 September 2016 at 8:53 am

      “Labour leader Little said today that at a bare minimum Labour wanted amendments to preserve the rights of iwi to contest their rights in court.”

      Sensible man.

    • Bearded Git 7.3
      23 September 2016 at 9:04 am

      There is not a cigarette paper between the positions of Labour and the Greens on this issue. The real story is that National have stuffed up. But maybe given their recent track record even that isn’t a surprise either.

      Nathan Guy needs to resign over the fish-dumping scandal. Nick Smith should be sacked over the Kermadecs (and housing and….). McCully should have been sacked long ago over the Saudi sheep fiasco. Parata is a shambles in education. Bennett has been a disaster over housing (lets buy another sticking-plaster motel). Upston should resign as Minister for Women because she refuses to comment on women’s issues….and so on.

      All this lot presided over by Key big-mouthing over Syria (“there will be blood on your hands”-doh!) while hypocritically refusing to raise the refugee intake to a humanitarian level.

      • Draco T Bastard 7.3.1
        23 September 2016 at 9:18 am

        McCully should have been sacked long ago over the Saudi sheep fiasco.

        McCully should have been jailed over that. That was pure bloody corruption.

    • marty mars 7.4
      23 September 2016 at 9:15 am

      Norman is a denier of rights for indigenous people. And the other environmental groups show their middle class ugly denier of rights consciousness – I am disgusted by them all and I’m withdrawing my support for them.

      Little and Labour could make a big positive impact with Māori if they stick to their principles – I hope they do but I suspect the pressure from their pollers and their middle class consciousness will turn them.

      • Robert Guyton 7.4.1
        23 September 2016 at 9:22 am

        Marty – did you ever see any signs of Russel Norman being a “denier of rights for indigenous people” when he was Green co-leader?
        Perhaps you are mistaking the mechanics of lobbying for something else.
        In any case, the problem here is with the mismanagement of the issue by the Government. Sniping at the minor players seems the perfect result for strategists from the Government, using the “divide and rule” technique of diverting attention and blame.

        • Draco T Bastard 7.4.1.1
          23 September 2016 at 9:24 am

          +111

        • Robert Guyton 7.4.1.2
          23 September 2016 at 9:25 am

          I’m getting memory-glimpses of a Tibetan flag, some totalitarian security guards and Russel Norman, alone, exposed, standing up for some indigenous culture or other, can you remember, Marty?

          • marty mars 7.4.1.2.1
            23 September 2016 at 9:33 am

            yeah often they love the overseas indigenous cultures (and the political attention gained from grandstanding) and forget about the ones in the land they are living in – funny that eh. Could be that he just doesn’t need votes anymore though…

            • Robert Guyton 7.4.1.2.1.1
              23 September 2016 at 9:47 am

              Do “they”?
              That’s very unlikely, Marty and given that Russel’s friend and ex co-leader is Maori and staunch with it, it seems to me very unlikely that you are correct in your accusations.
              I expect that Russel is now more free to lever wins than he was previously and is able to play a hand that will result in a win for those he represents. I expect “the environment” is high on his list, having committed so much of his time to it in recent times. Perhaps you believe he should jettison his principles? I also believe that Russel’s position on the rights of tangata whenua have not changed. Perhaps you are misreading the situation. In any case, where’s your condemnation of the real player here – Key?
              He tangata uaua ia!

              • marty mars …
                23 September 2016 at 9:57 am

                What about you Robert – do you think middle class greenwash is more important than upholding the rights agreed to and signed off with indigenous peoples?

                • Robert Guyton …
                  23 September 2016 at 10:12 am

                  No, Marty, I don’t though to be fair, I’m not sure what you mean by “middle class greenwash”, is that where someone buys a Prius rather than a Prelude? Regarding the proposed sanctuary, I think it’s festooned with fish hooks (matua, if you prefer). For starters, you might like to comment on this: Ko nga taunga ika tuuturu e paa ana ki nga taonga tuku iho ki te iwi aa rohe – are they traditional fishing grounds? I’m not saying one way or the other, only that there are fish hooks, details that need to be tested, including the global environmental questions that Russel Norman, in his new role, is honour-bound to ask. I am big on honouring treaties, Marty. I’m also aware that the projections of our shared future is shaking up world views through all cultures.

                  • marty mars …
                    23 September 2016 at 10:41 am

                    I’d say the fishhook is we are making ocean sanctuaries and still doing next to nothing about climate change. That is greenwash because how do you think those sanctuaries are going to go when temperatures rise even more. It isn’t even stopping the killing of fish in the ocean – hell even the whales still get killed and fish species hit the ecological wall every day. So what is the point of it? – makes people feel they are doing something – and that is a good reason in many respects but not if it is at the expense of indigenous rights – rights fought for with blood and sacrifice for generations, rights so often discarded as inconvenient to the abusers of those rights, rights tenaciously dug out of the colonisers as they lie, cheat and pretend care all the way dragging their feet.

                    This issue is about Treaty rights not sanctuaries (red herring) or the commercial catch (red herring), or whether Māori lived loved or died there (red herring). Respecting people (especially those that have been treated so, so ,so badly) is essential if you want to respect the planet, the oceans, the ecosystems and nature herself. There is no compromise on that imo.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      23 September 2016 at 1:32 pm

                      Marty. This issue is about Key and National going ahead without consulting Maori. This quibbling about Russel is pointless. Key failed to respect Maori, failed to consult, failed to inform. He and his National mates should be the target of your ire – what are you thinking of, diverting attention from the real miscarriage of justice
                      by taking pot-shots at others???

                    • marty mars …
                      23 September 2016 at 1:41 pm

                      Sure but guess what – you don’t get to tell me what my priorities should be.

                      Why don’t you respond to what I wrote instead of attempting to shame me.

                    • Karen …
                      23 September 2016 at 5:04 pm

                      + 100000 Marty Mars.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      23 September 2016 at 5:15 pm

                      Marty. My apologies to you also. I’m not wishing to shame you in any way – I like your stuff. Perhaps I was using language too strong for the moment. I like evocative words and phrases and sometimes use them too freely.
                      So…create ocean sanctuaries but not at the expense of indigenous communities, yes, but you know, the Japanese and the Norwegians and their whale-hunting… indigenous peoples of our Pacific islands have ceased, I believe, roasting kakapo, though it must surely have been their habit to do so in past times. That right might be enshrined in the Treaty, I don’t know, but modern times are different from those i nga wa o mua. Present day indigenous peoples must surely be willing to discuss the present situation where there is scarcity of a resource that was once plentiful. I don’t mean capitulating, I do mean discussing. Treaties, while absolute, have to flex with the times, I would like to think. In this case, I believe all fault lies with the Government for not consulting, not hearing, not offering the opportunity to debate and propose. They will though, ’cause that’s how they roll, but their sub-surface arrogance has been revealed, imho.

                    • marty mars …
                      23 September 2016 at 6:04 pm

                      Robert i like, respect and admire you. I am sorry for raising the energy. This is a tough issue that confronts my values. I certainly blame the crook key and his minions and the left need to be aware of the issues from all sides too.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      23 September 2016 at 6:10 pm

                      Marty, thanks and yes, it’s an issue with more than a little heat embedded. Despite the occasional boil-over (on all sides) debate like this is they way forward, imo and that’s what should have been had around the sanctuary or around any issue where people hold treaty rights.

                  • Karen …
                    23 September 2016 at 10:57 am

                    Robert, I think you (like many) are missing the point.

                    Treaty settlements are said to be full and final. What is happening here is that a settlement made in 1992 is being overruled by this government. What this means is the Māori have to accept that Treaty settlements are only final for them, but the state can change the rules anytime it likes.

                    Do you think this is fair? Do you not see that this has implications for all treaty agreements? Do you realise that Māori have only recieved recompense for 2% of the worth of the land that was illegally confiscated? You are also trying to question the validity of a claim that has been settled.

                    I am a Green Party supporter but I was horrified by the way Russel Norman completely ignored Treaty rights in that interview on the Nation. I was relieved he is no longer the leader.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      23 September 2016 at 1:38 pm

                      Karen – how gracious of you to inform me of my point-missing. I believe I have a good handle on treaties and the likes. In this instance, the ‘bad play’ has come from the Nats, dismissing tangata whenua. Why you want to drag others into that business, I can’t fathom.

          • Puckish Rogue 7.4.1.2.2
            23 September 2016 at 10:27 am

            Russell Norman getting criticised for not being left enough is something even I couldn’t have come up with 🙂

            • Colonial Viper 7.4.1.2.2.1
              23 September 2016 at 11:13 am

              It’s a weird and unrewarding world of frustration being a lefty

            • Stuart Munro 7.4.1.2.2.2
              23 September 2016 at 12:09 pm

              No-one ever accused the menkurt footsoldiers of the far right of an over abundance of imagination.

              • Puckish Rogue …
                23 September 2016 at 12:25 pm

                The left imagines it can be in power, the right make it happen

                • Stuart Munro …
                  23 September 2016 at 2:11 pm

                  Irrespective of public interest or mandate – PR, proud supporter of forte main over representive democracy – just another RWNJ quisling.

                  • Puckish Rogue …
                    23 September 2016 at 3:51 pm

                    You really don’t like democracy do you

                    • Stuart Munro …
                      23 September 2016 at 4:16 pm

                      I like democracy – and no part of it includes John Key disenfranchising me or dicks like you telling me what to do.

                      You are a traitor to the principles of democracy – winning dirty is all you care about – you’re a shabby beast not much better than Wayne the trougher.

                    • Chuck …
                      23 September 2016 at 6:24 pm

                      LOL Stuart Munro… “I like democracy – and no part of it includes John Key disenfranchising me or dicks like you telling me what to do.”

                      Me thinks you only like democracy when you get your way (the Government you want).

                      “winning dirty is all you care about”

                      The number 2 go-to reason from the activist left…

                      1/ The voters are stupid, why don’t they see things as we do…

                      Or

                      2/ The Nat’s play dirty. Which is directly linked back to reason number 1.

                      Sad really.

                    • Stuart Munro …
                      23 September 2016 at 7:04 pm

                      Democracy is about government representing us.

                      It’s not complicated. This one doesn’t.

                    • In Vino …
                      23 September 2016 at 11:42 pm

                      Chuck – way above you again wrote ‘would of’. I have already told you that there is no such thing -“would’ve” (short for ‘would have’) please. Unless you are trying to come across as an ignorant klutz. Furthermore, the Shakespearian ‘Methinks’ which you attempt to use is one word, not two. If you can’t do it right, stop pretending that you can.

                      Wrong side of logic, wrong side of history, pretending to be matey while dissing destructively…

                      It is you who are sad. A sadly incompetent troll, who smugly employs straw man argument. You did not accurately portray SM’s attitude.

        • marty mars 7.4.1.3
          23 September 2016 at 9:32 am

          by his actions and words is he known

        • Leftie 7.4.1.5
          23 September 2016 at 1:06 pm

          +1111 on your comments Robert.

      • Barfly 7.4.2
        23 September 2016 at 9:40 am

        TOKM are opposed to ocean sanctuaries PERIOD.

        The Maori Party are wedded to supporting TOKM’s position.

        Russell Norman heads a large environmental organization that wants ocean sanctuaries.

        …..and all you have is anger for those who want help protect the environment …well stuff you.

        • marty mars 7.4.2.1
          23 September 2016 at 9:55 am

          ““Te Ohu Kaimoana and iwi representatives worked hard to find a compromise solution where the Kermadec Ocean Sanctuary could go ahead and where Māori would not have extant rights, as agreed in the 1992 Deed of Settlement, unilaterally expropriated by the Government.”

          “We considered that an offer to voluntarily shelve the use of Māori fisheries quota in the Kermadec region while maintaining extant fishing rights would achieve the same thing. While ultimately iwi quota owners would have needed to agree, we considered this was a constructive and reasonable solution to the impasse,” Mr Tuuta said.”

          http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1609/S00159/government-rejects-maori-compromise-to-kermadec-sanctuary.htm

          so lie 1 – which is your first sentence is shown to be a lie

          is there any point reading anything else you write? nah

          • Robert Guyton 7.4.2.1.1
            23 September 2016 at 10:15 am

            ““We considered that an offer to voluntarily shelve the use of Māori fisheries quota in the Kermadec region while maintaining extant fishing rights would achieve the same thing. While ultimately iwi quota owners would have needed to agree, we considered this was a constructive and reasonable solution to the impasse”

            That’s what I would have suggested.

            • Karen 7.4.2.1.1.1
              23 September 2016 at 2:28 pm

              I am responding to your reply to me here Robert. You evidently thought I was being patronising to you. That was not my intention.

              You are one of the very few people here I read. You obviously believe you understand the issues here but I see no evidence from what you have posted that you do. I was trying to help.

              • Robert Guyton …
                23 September 2016 at 4:59 pm

                I apologise, Karen and I agree with the views you expressed. I’m not trying to unpick or argue whatever Russel Norman has said, I’m just saying that the issue here is the Government’s decision, conscious decision I believe, to go ahead without involving Maori. Reactions and responses from NGO’s and individuals such as Russel don’t really have much bearing on the issue, I reckon and those have to be taken in the context of whatever sector they come from. Why would Key and his band of orcs be proposing a sanctuary for fish in the first place is an interesting question, when it is counter to most everything else they do. I believe they hoped to trumpet their big fish sanctuary as evidence that they are greener than the Greens, but to get there they had to behave badly with regard Maori, and decided they could swing it nonetheless, or at least suppress it till the election passes.
                Perhaps you are right, I may not understand the issue, but leopards, spots and all that. I’m not mesmerized by such ploys. I’m interested in the idea though, that iwi can’t be trusted to say, “We’ll voluntarily abstain from fishing there, so long as you don’t ban us”, and how people can’t conceive that such an agreement might work. I believe it could. It’s a cultural interface there though, so who knows…

          • Barfly 7.4.2.1.2
            23 September 2016 at 11:28 am

            “while maintaining extant fishing rights ”

            When is a sanctuary not a sanctuary? When TOKM demand the right to fish it at any point they want.

            Are you comprehension challenged ? Or can a Maori organization never be wrong because they are Maori?

            • marty mars 7.4.2.1.2.1
              23 September 2016 at 11:40 am

              “TOKM are opposed to ocean sanctuaries PERIOD.:”

              That is what you said and I proved you a fibber.

              • Barfly …
                23 September 2016 at 11:49 am

                Oh right so it’s a ghost sanctuary is it ?…

                The one that you have when it’s not one?

                Maintaining the right to fish in a “sanctuary” at any point renders the area not a sanctuary.

                Perhaps you should argue to change the meaning of sanctuary.

                • Leftie …
                  23 September 2016 at 12:57 pm

                  Good points Barfly.

                • marty mars …
                  23 September 2016 at 1:43 pm

                  Just put the link up that shows your point – oh that’s right there isn’t one is there…

                  • Barfly …
                    23 September 2016 at 3:26 pm

                    Marty your own posts refute your argument

                    Maintaining the right to fish in a “sanctuary” at any point renders the area not a sanctuary.

                    I understand anger and emotion but can you calm yourself and look rationally at my posts..

                    Sorry you are simply wrong, you call me a troll and liken me to a RWNJ, you insult my intelligence, this I believe cheapens you not me.

                    P.S. do you play chess by any chance?

                    • marty mars …
                      23 September 2016 at 3:34 pm

                      No I have called Leftie those things not you.

                      Yes emotion is highish and my understanding of what Te Ohu Kaimoana and Iwi leaders have said is that they are quite okay with sanctuaries. I just don’t think saying, “TOKM are opposed to ocean sanctuaries PERIOD.” is 100% true, and I put a link to back up my point.

                      I think you have been a bit rude by saying, “…well stuff you.” and the other one you said to me yesterday – and so I have replied in kind – I have offered reciprocity/utu.

                      yes I play chess and yes I am being pedantic a bit on this I admit – and I still think my understanding is correct.

                      edit and I’ll also say I am not opposed to ocean sanctuaries in any way – hell I welcome them with open arms – I don’t eat fish because of the way we have depleted the numbers and affected species survival. I’d like ocean sanctuaries to be part of a plan to help people cope with climate change, to bring people together – however as it stands at the moment I have to call this greenwash and Treaty breaching and I cannot tolerate Treaty breaching – see my comment to Robert above (i think)

                    • Leftie …
                      23 September 2016 at 4:44 pm

                      So you are being selective who you name call and abuse now Marty Mars? My post was in support of what Barfly was saying. So if you think that of me, then you must think that of Barfly as well, given that he has been responding to you in far greater detail than I.

                      And further, in other words only YOUR opinion is right and everyone else is wrong, while you try and selectively bully people with abuse because you can’t handle any home truths being said about the Maori party.

                    • marty mars …
                      23 September 2016 at 5:01 pm

                      Of course I’m selective. I’m happy to let you be if you do the same, let’s call it a treaty.

                    • Leftie …
                      23 September 2016 at 5:27 pm

                      For Christ sakes Marty, do you hear yourself? What gives you the right to abuse me for supporting what someone else said? And you’re “happy to let me be…” What does that mean exactly? you’ll leave me alone as long as I don’t post opinions on the Maori party and don’t challenge what you post?

                    • marty mars …
                      23 September 2016 at 5:41 pm

                      Leftie you are entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to reply to me anyway you like within the policy bounds of this site. I may not like or believe what you say and i may think you are not actually arguing a point, just kneejerking slogans and i might think that in my way I could counter that with some logic and compassion. I might think all of that and you know what? Who cares. It is my opinion. That’s all.

                      Edit plus im sorry for causing you any pain.

                    • Leftie …
                      23 September 2016 at 6:30 pm

                      Well that was a piece of patronizing abusive swill you just wrote there Marty Mars, clearly by your own behaviour you don’t believe in people, particularly me, voicing opinions, (that are not “kneejerking slogans” btw), because they differ from your own and I have been responding “within the policy bounds of this site”. On the other hand, your pointless abuse is not painful in the least, I see it as a weakness, it’s infantile, and shows you’re struggling.

            • Leftie 7.4.2.1.2.2
              23 September 2016 at 1:01 pm

              Well said. It’s amazing how some people are completely blind to that which you have pointed out, Barfly. You cannot have a “sanctuary” while maintaining extant fishing rights. They can’t have it both ways.

              • marty mars …
                23 September 2016 at 1:46 pm

                you are a troll – an annoyingly thick slogan spinner. You might as well be a rwnj your understanding is below average on anything I’ve ever seen you write. I’m sick of you.

                • Leftie …
                  23 September 2016 at 4:34 pm

                  What a load of sanctimonious rubbish Marty Mars. You abuse when an obvious fact is pointed out to you that you can’t handle. You have lost all reasoning and are being totally irrational.

            • Psycho Milt 7.4.2.1.2.3
              23 September 2016 at 1:43 pm

              Are you comprehension challenged ? Or can a Maori organization never be wrong because they are Maori?

              If you make an agreement with another party about something, and then want to change that agreement, you need to negotiate with that other party. And if the change you want to make is really important, you need to stir yourself to figure out some way to make the other party to the agreement happy for that change to occur, even if it involves making concessions you didn’t actually want to make. Otherwise, you shouldn’t enter into agreements in the first place.

        • Leftie 7.4.2.2
          23 September 2016 at 1:02 pm

          Spot on Barfly +100

  8. mauī 8
    23 September 2016 at 8:57 am

    Toussaint Romain was held up as a hero by the media in the Charlotte protests. As a public defender, dressed in a shirt and tie, he got between the protestors and police and tried to stop conflict. The second half of this interview with Romain was edited out by CNN. I wonder why…
    https://youtu.be/J_hGdgG1JiI

    • jcuknz 8.1
      23 September 2016 at 9:19 am

      Probably because he waffled on too long. TV is sound bites. But the conspiritory types look for it everywhere LOLZ.

  9. James 9
    23 September 2016 at 9:14 am

    Good old Stuart Nash – http://www.newshub.co.nz/opinion/opinion-embracing-my-bare-face-2016092212

    Belittling women and raining over their self esteem because they aren’t wearing makeup.

    “Shame on you Stuart Nash, I feel sorry for the women you work with on a day-to-day basis if you hold them to the same standard.”

    • Cinny 9.1
      23 September 2016 at 10:08 am

      Aww Jenna Lynch makes a priority of not wearing makeup over an important story. Dead cats everywhere.

      “Shortly after, Labour MP Stuart Nash walked in trying to sell some bloody story about cops. ” as quoted from the article you posted James.

      Judith is due to speak about the prisoners soon, sounds like corrections have messed up again.

    • Puckish Rogue 9.2
      23 September 2016 at 10:44 am

      Imagine the uproar if a National MP or even John Key himself had said something similar

    • Colonial Viper 9.3
      23 September 2016 at 11:16 am

      Stuart Nash, I hear some in Labour think of him as talented leadership material.

      • te reo putake 9.3.1
        23 September 2016 at 12:05 pm

        They used to say that about you, too, CV, or so I’m told 😉

        Currently, there’s only one LP member who thinks of Stuart as talented leadership material … a Mr S Nash of Napier.

        • Jenny Kirk 9.3.1.1
          23 September 2016 at 12:43 pm

          + 100% trp

        • Colonial Viper 9.3.1.2
          23 September 2016 at 4:37 pm

          Fuck no, I have better things to do than be backstabbed by fellow Labourites.

          • te reo putake 9.3.1.2.1
            23 September 2016 at 4:46 pm

            It’s not actually an option, cobber. You gave it a shot, which is more than most ever do, so kudos to you for that. But obviously, you’ve blown it and you’ll never entrusted with any responsibility again. I imagine you’re Ok with that.

            • Colonial Viper 9.3.1.2.1.1
              23 September 2016 at 10:10 pm

              Huh? Not being trusted by you backstabbing lot of careerists is a fucking badge of honour that I wear with pride.

              Labour is a toxic brand.

    • Banjo 9.4
      23 September 2016 at 11:47 am

      James your phony outrage on this thread over fat shaming and the negative impact the beauty industry has on women is touching.

      • James 9.4.1
        23 September 2016 at 12:49 pm

        why phoney?

        Better than being an enabler like the people on here who are happy for people to be called and treated as such.

        • In Vino 9.4.1.1
          23 September 2016 at 11:52 pm

          All hail James! The greatest enabler seen on this website since Hitler, Goebbels, Stalin, and the Wicked Witch of the West.

  10. Chooky 10
    23 September 2016 at 9:24 am

    Assad , an eye surgeon, and the democratically elected leader of Syria states that the attack on his forces was no accident and US does not want to fight ISIS.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashar_al-Assad

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asma_al-Assad

    ‘US airstrikes on Syrian troops were ‘intentional,’ lasted nearly 1 hour – Assad to AP’

    https://www.rt.com/news/360248-assad-ap-intentional-us-airstrikes/

    “Syrian President Bashar Assad says that US airstrikes which killed 62 Syrian government troops were “intentional” and they lasted for an hour. He added that the US “does not have the will” to join Russia in fighting terrorists in Syria…

    ‘Russian military contacted US twice to stop airstrikes against Syrian govt troops’

    https://www.rt.com/news/360156-airstrike-usa-syria-russia/

    ‘Ceasefireless’

    https://www.rt.com/shows/crosstalk/360096-russia-us-ceasefire-regime/

    “What was a ray of hope has turned into a gaze into the abyss. The Russia-US ceasefire to end the Syrian conflict is in tatters. For many the American bombing of the Syrian military marks a process of mission creep and forced regime change.

    CrossTalking with Ali Rizk, Nadim Shehadi, and Rick Sterling.”

    • te reo putake 10.1
      23 September 2016 at 9:36 am

      It’s a shame Assad/Putin have run out of hospitals to bomb. They’ve been reduced to just attacking aid convoys and that only kills healthy adults, not the sick and infirm. Where’s the fun in that?

      • Cinny 10.1.1
        23 September 2016 at 10:18 am

        USA are not innocent in bombing and pointing fingers at others. JS.
        https://www.rt.com/news/360271-us-fact-checking-moscow/

        USA have just done a huge weapons deal with the Saudi’s, profit via war, and it’s horrid.
        http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-saudi-defense-congress-idUSKCN11R2LU

        “President Bashar al-Assad meanwhile indicated he saw no quick end to the war, telling AP News it would “drag on” as long as it is part of a global conflict in which terrorists were backed by Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey, and the United States.”
        http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-idUSKCN11S1C5

        It’s a shame that all can’t focus on their same common enemy, ISIS

        • Colonial Viper 10.1.1.1
          23 September 2016 at 11:25 am

          ISIS aren’t a common enemy though; they are a proxy army being financed, armed and used by western allies (Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey) as well as directly by the Pentagon itself, to try and regime change Assad out of Damascus.

        • Psycho Milt 10.1.1.2
          23 September 2016 at 12:08 pm

          It’s a shame that all can’t focus on their same common enemy, ISIS

          Pretty straightforward – if the Russians and their Syrian client do that, the sizable proportion of the Syrian population that wants their client dead will eventually get what they want, and if their client’s not running things the Russians’ military presence in the Mediterranean is fucked. Fighting Da’esh is a bit of a sideshow from the Russian perspective – much more important is knackering the ceasefire in such a way that they have plausible deniability.

          • Colonial Viper 10.1.1.2.1
            23 September 2016 at 12:16 pm

            Assad is extremely popular with the ethnic and religious minorities in Syria. The Islamic fundamentalist headchoppers are not.

            Fighting Da’esh is a bit of a sideshow from the Russian perspective – much more important is knackering the ceasefire in such a way that they have plausible deniability.

            More Psycho Milt bullshit.

            You don’t understand the “Russian perspective” one whit.

            The US has limited positive control over the extremist Islamist groups that it arms and funds to try and overthrow Assad (an effort which is thoroughly illegal in international law). These terrorist groups never respected any terms of the cease fire from day 1.

            In fact, a number of those groups signed a document saying that they would not be bound by any terms of the ceasefire.

            In addition, the US special forces who are training these proxy regime change fighters know full well that they are being asked to train the next generation of Jihadist terrorists, and they are not happy about it.

            • Psycho Milt 10.1.1.2.1.1
              23 September 2016 at 12:49 pm

              Assad is extremely popular with the ethnic and religious minorities in Syria. The Islamic fundamentalist headchoppers are not.

              Well, he is with his own one, at least. The Kurds, not so much. And hardly anyone in Syria is keen on “Islamic fundamentalist headchoppers.”

              You don’t understand the “Russian perspective” one whit.

              One only achieves understanding of the Russian perspective by hoovering up endless Russian government propaganda from RT, I suppose? That might help with understanding Putin’s propaganda aims, but I’m not really interested in those.

              The US has limited positive control over the extremist Islamist groups that it arms and funds to try and overthrow Assad…

              Leaving aside for a moment your obsession with the US supposedly funding Da’esh, of course the US has limited positive control over participants in a civil war in a foreign country. That’s because the rebel forces aren’t clients of the US government, the way Assad is a client of the Russian government. Expecting the US government to give Syrian rebel groups orders and have them carried out would be pointless – expecting the Russian government to give Assad orders and expect them to be carried out, on the other hand, is entirely reasonable.

              • Colonial Viper …
                23 September 2016 at 1:00 pm

                Also, you fail to understand how dangerous it is for the world for Russia and the US/UK to continue to confront each other in Syria.

                The US/UK are both operating illegally in Syria.

                At least Trump has it correct – the US should be fully cooperating with Russia to eliminate ISIS, not getting in Russia’s way.

                • Psycho Milt …
                  23 September 2016 at 1:33 pm

                  If Russia had any specific intent of eliminating Da’esh, that would be true. However, its actual intent is to eliminate all opponents of its Syrian client regime, so cooperating with Russia would be a terrible thing to do. In any case, aligning yourself with a mafia state is a bad idea in general, let alone in this particular instance.

                  • Colonial Viper …
                    23 September 2016 at 4:36 pm

                    Russia is keen to eliminate the 101 flavours of jihadists that the west implicitly and explicitly supports in Syria, yes, that includes the fictional “Free Syrian Army” that no one can find and also the “moderate terrorists” that the US seems to enjoy backing.

                    Also, do try and remember that Russia is operating in Syria at the invitation of the Damascus government, while the US, UK and France are all operating in Syria illegally.

      • Colonial Viper 10.1.2
        23 September 2016 at 11:23 am

        Hi TRP,

        It’s unfortunate that Hillary Clinton and the rest of the neocon set embarked on supporting yet another disastrous regime change op in Syria.

        And these people still want Assad gone, even if that means that the black ISIS flag gets run up over Damascus. Which of course means, the ISIS version of Sharia law gets applied over the whole country, and women, ethnic minorities, religious minorities (including Christians) all get slaved out, head chopped or burnt alive.

        The Assad government is the only shot for stable, secular rule in Syria. The Americans however would prefer chaotic, Islamic extremist rule in an imploded failed state balkanized Syria.

        And behind all of this, is a contest for who gets to control the real estate for massive oil and gas pipelines through the territory.

        • te reo putake 10.1.2.1
          23 September 2016 at 11:57 am

          “And these people still want Assad gone, even if that means that the black ISIS flag gets run up over Damascus. ”

          It’s saying things like this that destroys the credibility of your argument, CV. Certainly Assad should be removed. preferably to the Hague, but there’s not a scrap of evidence that anyone in the west wants ISIS in control.

          • Colonial Viper 10.1.2.1.1
            23 September 2016 at 12:21 pm

            Just because you choose to blind yourself to the facts on the ground doesn’t mean that other people will, TRP.

            The west’s allies would prefer for the Assad government to fall and for Assad to be gone tomorrow. In fact, regime change remains the first and foremost priority of the USA in Syria, and it has done for years.

            That leaves no one to oppose the western supplied Daesh/ISIS forces on the ground, leaving Syria imploded just like NATO/USA left Libya.

            • te reo putake 10.1.2.1.1.1
              23 September 2016 at 12:28 pm

              Facts, huh? Show me the facts, CV. Put up a credible cite of western leaders saying they would prefer ISIS to Assad.

              • Colonial Viper …
                23 September 2016 at 12:56 pm

                Call bullshit on your cheap transparent rhetorical tactic TRP.

                Western leaders want the Assad government gone ASAP which de facto means that the western ally backed Islamists will take over the country.

                End of.

                • Red …
                  23 September 2016 at 1:22 pm

                  Gotta agree here any strongman regieme change in the Middle East by the west has not gone very well. Tribal affiliation, religious intolerance, artificial countries are simply not conducive to democracy forming, maybe in a few hundred years when they have butchered themselves silly and society is s bit more secular there may be a chance To be fair Europe or the west where not much better 500 years ago

                  • Colonial Viper …
                    23 September 2016 at 1:31 pm

                    The west might also try to no longer assassinate/encourage the assassination of middle of the road secular leaders whenever these leaders spring up and try to take their countries in an independent direction. From Mossadegh to Sadat to Gadaffi.

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      23 September 2016 at 1:36 pm

                      If you could stop thinking of murderous dictators (Sadat and Gadaffi in this case) as “middle of the road, secular leaders,” it would be a good start on a move away from tinfoil-hattery.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      23 September 2016 at 4:30 pm

                      There’s a reason that GW Bush and Tony Blair are wanted for war crimes, Psycho Milt.

                      Further every time the West gets rid of a middle of the road secular leader, they replace him with someone far more shit, far more radical, and usually far more radical Islamist.

                      Which leads us to our current situation.

                • te reo putake …
                  23 September 2016 at 1:55 pm

                  So you have nothing, CV? And facts are now a cheap rhetorical device? Fascinating!

                  • Colonial Viper …
                    23 September 2016 at 4:31 pm

                    Hi TRP, I guess you imagine that no one else can see what you are doing with your silly rhetorical tricks.

                    Bottom line is that the West wants to see a failed Islamist state in Syria, just like they have accomplished in Libya.

          • Stuart Munro 10.1.2.1.2
            23 September 2016 at 12:57 pm

            I think CV may be making the wrong side of the argument about ISIS – not that it represents a desirable end state for Syria, but that it has value or is perceived as having value to the furtherance of US ends in Syria – mostly destabilising Assad.

            Likewise the Assad’s forces offer a vehicle or a letter of marque like legitimacy to Russian skirmishing, the Turkmen offer buffer stability to Turkey, and the Kurds must look after themselves having no reliable state sponsor.

            The Russians are wedded to Assad because a Syrian government the US was not supporting insurgency against would have no particular interest in becoming Putin’s client. So in principle the US should push to remove Assad through the UN and let Russia make what deals it may with his successor.

  11. Ad 11
    23 September 2016 at 1:35 pm

    Anyone seen the 10 day forecast?
    Post-tropical wash in early spring. What muck.

    http://www.metvuw.co.nz/forecast/forecast.php?type=rain&region=nz&noofdays=10

    • Anne 11.1
      23 September 2016 at 3:54 pm

      We’re not too far way from the start of the cyclone/hurricane season. This semi- tropical “muck” could be the fore-runner to an active season which might see NZ hit a few times this summer.

      Yes, I have a reputation for being a bundle of joy.

  12. Leftie 12
    23 September 2016 at 1:55 pm

    500 prisoners up for early release after Department of Corrections’ mistake

    “Around 500 prisoners will have their release dates brought forward because of the Supreme Court ruling on the Department of Correction’s mistaken interpretation of the Parole Act.”

    “The court ruled on Thursday that the department had miscalculated parole and release dates, meaning some prisoners had spent more time in custody than the department had taken into account.”

    “The court didn’t rule on compensation, but it’s an issue that’s going to come up”

    <a href="https://nz.news.yahoo.com/top-stories/a/32705867/500-prisoners-up-for-early-release-after-department-of-corrections-mistake/#page1

    • b waghorn 12.1
      23 September 2016 at 2:49 pm

      collins says national will change the law if needed ,to avoid compensation
      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11715509

      • Leftie 12.1.1
        23 September 2016 at 6:09 pm

        How true to form, isn’t that what this National government always do B Waghorn?

        • alwyn 12.1.1.1
          24 September 2016 at 12:09 am

          I notice, Leftie, that you read and commented on the response just before mine on this topic.
          I find it hard to believe that you didn’t even seem to have noticed what I said.
          What is the problem? Does it upset you that the department seem to have followed the interpretation of the law that the highest court that had considered the matter seemed to believe was the right one?
          Are you really as stupid, or biased, as the Green and Labour spokesmen are? Should the Department have said something like “The Court of Appeal may tell us that the law means X but we think they are wrong”.
          If so, they might have appealed to you but I am sure the legal fraternity would have been up in arms.
          Why do you still think that the Department is at fault? Why aren’t you yelling at the Court of Appeal?
          I realise that David Clendon and Kelvin Davis, as well as TVNZ and RNZ are on your side but do you really want to be on the side of the Green and Labour Party idiots rather than on the side of accuracy?
          Come on, admit that the Department was following the best interpretation of the law that was available to them.

    • alwyn 12.2
      23 September 2016 at 5:41 pm

      The “mistake” the Department made was, apparently, to believe that the distinguished jurists on the Court of Appeal actually knew what the law meant.
      As far as I have understood it the Department have been using the same method since 2003. It is the method that follows a ruling by the Court of Appeal.
      The Supreme Court, now the final stage for appeals, has now ruled that the law doesn’t mean that at all. In effect that is saying that the Court of Appeal simply didn’t know what they were doing.

      None of the 500 people you are talking about would appear to be eligible for any compensation at all. They are people who are in prison now and will still be in prison even if the release date is brought forward. You can be forgiven though. Espiner on Morning Report didn’t seem to understand that either. 500 rather than 21 seemed much sexier to him I guess.
      An example of one of these 500 would be someone who was first charged, and remanded in custody, in January 2015. Further investigation led to additional charges in March 2015 and more still in April 2015. They went to trial and were sentenced to 14 years without parole.
      This would give them a release date according to Wednesday’s interpretation of the law of April 2029. Now it will be January 2029. Just what “compensation” do you think they are due?
      The people who may be eligible are the 21 people, currently in prison, whose time should have been up before today and the unknown number who have already been released after serving a longer time than they should have.

      Disclaimer. I am not a lawyer and everything I am saying could be total rubbish.
      Perhaps a real lawyer could comment?

      On the other hand perhaps we should expect all the Judges on the Court of Appeal to resign? Their senior brethren (and sisteren) clearly think they are incompetent.

      • Ed 12.2.1
        23 September 2016 at 9:30 pm

        I do not see that there is any compensation due to any current prisoner whose release date on the “correct” basis is not affected by the miscalculation, but I would expect that if the basis for calculation has been consistent since 2003 that there will be quite a number of now released prisoners who were not released until after the correct date. Yet again we are looking at a situation where reasonable compensation is being determined not on the basis of any principals or agreed assessment criteria, but determined by politicians who will not be consistent over time, and may be swayed by non-relevant issues (such as polling and focus groups). If we really have a justice system, it should be handled by them – and not by a minister attempting to change the law.

  13. rhinocrates 13
    23 September 2016 at 1:59 pm

    Trump and his record of racism:

    A final response to the "Tell me why Trump is racist". from EnoughTrumpSpam

    Among many, many points:

    80% of Trump’s supporters claim to have no problem with racist comments.

    And to save time:

    “Buuuuut Kiiiiilary has lycanthropy and Dutch Elm Disease!”

    • Andre 13.1
      23 September 2016 at 2:07 pm

      Naw, that was just software glitches in her body-double android. She’s all better now that she had her motherboard replaced and tuned in during her few days off.

      • rhinocrates 13.1.1
        23 September 2016 at 2:16 pm

        You mean the body double for the lizard that wears the human disguise?

        • Andre 13.1.1.1
          23 September 2016 at 2:25 pm

          Oh, it’s been confirmed she’s one of the shapeshifting lizards? Last I heard they were investigating rumours she’s actually Chthulhu.

          • rhinocrates 13.1.1.1.1
            23 September 2016 at 2:44 pm

            That’s what they want you to think!

            • Colonial Viper 13.1.1.1.1.1
              23 September 2016 at 9:52 pm

              Clinton is likely chronically ill and the evidence suggests that both her core campaign team and her secret service detail all know it.

              Look out for many days off the campaign trail between now and Nov 8.

  14. joe90 14
    23 September 2016 at 3:15 pm

    Oh dear.

    Trump Jr warned against poison Skittles (Syrians).In 1939 Germans were warned 1 poison (Jewish) mushroom would make the whole bowl lethal. pic.twitter.com/WFHWgX5nJB— Cornelia (@PaladinCornelia) September 22, 2016

    https://twitter.com/PaladinCornelia/status/778801494292213761

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:OI5FrHTjixwJ:vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres10/PoisonMush.pdf+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nz&client=firefox-b

  15. Manuka AOR 15
    23 September 2016 at 3:40 pm

    BBC article on the US election, comparing Hillary and Trump to various world leaders, has to use two heads for Trump on several of the images, to represent his varying statements: http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-37423550

  16. marty mars 16
    23 September 2016 at 4:06 pm

    Awesome

    “A shallow trench running the width of the closed state highway at Rangiriri marks the start of a restoration project 152 years in the making.

    Spades were handed out to New Zealand Transport Agency staff and management to begin filling the trench – a symbolic step toward a massive restoration project to see Rangiriri Pa returned to its original state.

    State Highway 1 drove a line through the pa site when it was built in the 1960s. The path of the new expressway offers a way to heal that wound. ”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/84594488/rangiriri-pa-site-cleaved-by-state-highway-to-be-restored-to-its-original-state

    The heart was cleaved and now joined, the healing can begin in earnest. Good result and shows what we can all do when we work in partnership.

  17. fisiani 17
    23 September 2016 at 4:45 pm

    How low can the Labour vote go? At 22% probably no one on the Labour List would get in. Not even Andrew Little (who has never won a seat and only got into Parliament on the specials). Trevor Mallard is standing List only, not wanting to lose Hutt South to the very popular Chris Bishop. He hopes for a high List spot. If you want to be a Labour MP in 2017-20 you have to deselect a sitting member in a safe Red Seat. Already the jockeying has begun.

  18. Richard McGrath 18
    23 September 2016 at 11:08 pm

    For all those who sneeringly dismiss libertarianism on the grounds that it’s never been tried: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/libertarian-herman-mashaba-elected-mayor-of-johannesburg/article31942363/

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