Rockstar! Is it?

Written By: - Date published: 12:58 pm, September 16th, 2016 - 181 comments
Categories: Economy, im/migration, wages - Tags:

National is very proud of the latest GDP-growth figures (third highest in OECD!), but are they helping you?  And are they what they appear?

First up Bill English is open – they’re not helping you, we’re not getting much wage growth.

And that’s a lot because they’re not quite what they appear.  GDP/capita growth is <1% (vs the 3.6% growth headline figure).

So really what we’re seeing is National boosting its numbers by piling a bunch of people into the country.

Once again: migrants – lovely people; diversity – a great thing.  But with 68,000 people coming into the country over the last year we’re giving ourselves a housing and infrastructure headache, and depressing the wages of those already here.

As detailed before, there are jobs we need to import people for (thanks to a lack of National planning & training: carpenters for those houses we need), but a lot of the time we’re just bringing in retail/cafe/farm managers, chefs etc because employers don’t want to pay Kiwi wages.

I’m still all for a better measure of economic “health” than GDP & its growth (and lets please also measure environmental & social health!), but at the very least lets go off GDP/capita, so the figures can’t be skewed this way, and the numbers actually relate to people.

181 comments on “Rockstar! Is it?”

  1. Meh…. Im not so sure I want to swallow the 1980’s exhortations that we should be ‘ tolerant’ , that multiculturalism is the way forward and all the other catch phrases we had rammed down our throats by the govts of the day.

    If people cant see that it was a planned way of getting in cheap labour for the then named Business Roundtable ( now called the NZ Initiative ) ,…and realize it was all a con job … then pity help us.

    Rather suspicious that sort of globalistic sloganeering came in tandem with anti union legislation such as the Employment Contracts Act , is it not?…

    Ask yourself…. is the New Zealander nowadays a mentally inferior version of what constitutes the rest of the worlds citizens?

    Can we not train our own young into the skills set we once seemed so easily able to?

    What happened to Kiwi can do ?… that number 8 wire mentality?

    Sorry folks ,….you were sold a neo liberal, free market con job.

    And the worst thing about it?…. it makes the Nzer look like a helpless, incompetent , lazy , unintelligent and gormless second rate citizen in their own country. They continue to feed us the lie that if all the immigrants were to suddenly leave the economy would fall apart.

    Bolix it would !!!!

    The only thing that would fall apart would be the obscene profit margins of the exploiters in business of all this cheap labour!!!! Those who benefit from low wages, a de-unionised and casualised work force that was put into law way back in around 1992.

    That whole era of implying we were intolerant, and treated like children by an all knowing , patronizing and condescending political and academic elite- just so that their true motives of greed and appetite for excess profits could be slated – while at the same time masquerading around as people with noble aspirations for humanity makes me and thousands of others sick to the gut.

    This whole decades long dismantling of the NZ workers wages, training , conditions etc was carefully planned by the same sort of bastards that now refuse to put a brake on their runaway , out of control immigration policy’s that have contributed massively to the housing crisis we are now in.

    Neo liberals.

    Anti community , anti sovereignty , anti democracy and anti govt.

    • Stuart Munro 1.1

      You’ve nailed it.

      No-one should expect folk to embrace migrants that put them out of their jobs or houses.

      It has to stop.

      • What “has to stop” is the stigmatization of the people who come here to work from overseas.

        They aren’t setting immigration policy, they aren’t keeping wages low, they aren’t eroding workers’ rights. If people are living in our country they deserve to have good jobs, good homes and good lives, like every other human being.

        Here’s the thing: if people stopped buying into this “bloody immigrants taking our jobs” rhetoric and demanded that all people who work here are paid good wages, treated with dignity, and protected from exploitation, it would make the situation far less tempting for cost-cutting bosses. As a bonus, we wouldn’t come across like narrow-minded bigots who hate foreigners.

        • Scott 1.1.1.1

          Well put Stephanie.

          Change our policies if we might, but those that are here now are here at our invitation so suck it up.

          • s y d 1.1.1.1.1

            Fucks sake. I’m calling handwringing bullshit.

            You guys would defend the ‘rights’ of scabs once they’ve crossed the picket lines.

            Ohhhh well they’re in the workplace now, lets treat them nice and give them the respect they deserve.

            There is ALWAYS someone, somewhere desperate enough to do things for less.

            Global migrant labour is being ‘bussed’ in to undermine local conditions. It is a tool. Should we just stand back and say ahh well, thats how it is. These guys are willing to be exploited and used to distort our labour market, so be it.

            Fuck that. Like all scabs they need to be told they are being used, that they are part of a wider problem and that they need to recognise this.

            Have a read of Mike Treens article, it is spot on.

        • WILD KATIPO 1.1.1.2

          @ Stephanie

          And to a point you are exactly right.

          People come here for the attractions of starting a new life. They do so because they can.

          And that aspect is perfectly ok. As is demanding fair practice for immigrants in the work force, – and that goes for all of us as well. No problem with that.

          But before anyone gets on the ‘ calling everyone who wants a large reduction in immigration a bigot, a racist , a xenophobe ‘ kick…. lets have a look at a people group that could REALLY do with a leg up – REFUGEES.

          REFUGEES who have had their family’s, community’s and country blown to hell.

          But the neo liberal likes to downplay all that sort of thing because usually , – but not always – the refugee DOES NOT have a fat bank balance, and quite often the so called desired ‘ skills set’. And that means govt intervention to settle a family in. And neo iberals cant see the economic advantage in all that.

          Sheer hypocrisy at its worst.

          And you are quite right- we have a runaway immigration situation simply because of the govt we have in currently. And they have absolutely no desire to change that for the reasons mentioned above. It makes their glowing reports of a rock star economy look even better. How?…. by twisting the stats.

          Which is at the very heart of what this blog is all about.

        • Leftie 1.1.1.3

          Mike Treen covered this in his recent article:

          What you are not being told about the most recent migration surge

          “The real beneficiaries of this system of indentured labour are often the biggest companies in New Zealand. We know that all the hotel chains rely on temporary labour. SkyCity uses them extensively as do all the big fast food chains.”

          “The June annual net gain figure of 69,100 was also a new record.”

          “Reasons for the most recent increases include the following:

          The economy appeared to be stalling in 2013 and again in early 2015 after an initial period of recovery following the 2008 financial crash and subsequent recession. A positive migrant inflow of labour and cash could mask the economic slowdown that was occurring.

          Foreign labour was deemed important for the rebuild of Christchurch following the 2010 and 2011 earthquakes.

          An aggressive recruitment of overseas students was agreed on in October 2013, which included liberalising the right to work while here saw numbers increase 25 per cent to over 100,000 in a few years.

          Tourist numbers have been boosted by making it easier for Chinese and others to travel here. The June 2016 year saw a record 3.31 million visitor arrivals, with Chinese numbers up 83,600 to 396,900. Additional labour would be needed to service this sector.

          Employers in certain industries (tourism, hospitality, farming, horticulture) were complaining that they couldn’t attract enough staff (at the wages they were offering). In some industries that Unite Union represents staff, such as tourist hotels and fast food, the bosses confessed that 30 to 40 per cent of their staff were on temporary visas.

          Some industries including hospitality, dairy farming and aged care have come to be permanently dependent on workers on temporary visas.”

          “The government has massively increased the number of student and temporary work visa holders.”

          <a href="http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2016/09/16/exclusive-what-you-are-not-being-told-about-the-most-recent-migration-surge/

        • marty mars 1.1.1.4

          + 1 Stephanie

          It is like a great amnesia has descended – the immigrants have caused all the bad things, they are to blame, they must be stopped – when the truth is they are the most exploited, the most at risk. Meanwhile the real culprits – the people of this country who voted in year in and out parties that put these policies of exploitation into place sit there finger pointing and throwing poo.

          • Colonial Viper 1.1.1.4.1

            Immigrants filthy wealthy or under paid below the minimum wage are the most visible sign of a country which no longer believes in defending the integrity of its own borders and which no longer believes in putting NZers first.

            So that’s naturally where dissatisfaction is going to be directed especially as the PM’s office is far away and hard to get to.

            BTW looks like Merkel’s party is in for another beating in Berlin’s elections. I wonder if the anti immgration AfD party is going to beat them again.

            And I think NZ First is going to be a winner at the polls.

            • Hanswurst 1.1.1.4.1.1

              BTW looks like Merkel’s party is in for another beating in Berlin’s elections. I wonder if the anti immgration AfD party is going to beat them again.

              Unlikely. It looks as though the AfD will be a major beneficiary of the currently high protest vote. However, the highest probability looks to be a coalition of the centrist Social Democrats, the Greens and the left-leaning “Linke”. That is a more progressive-leaning coalition than the current grand coalition between the Social Democrats and the centrist CDU. Additionally, the issues of refugees and immigrant workers are quite separate, so not really comparable with NZ in this case.

              Closer to home, I also think that, while the pulling in of cheaper labour from overseas is clearly an issue, the angle of hammering immigration in itself is fucked beyond belief, and comparisons of migrant workers with scabs are spurious and irresponsible. The problem isn’t immigrant workers looking for a better wage, it’s labour laws that make it attractive for employers to undercut the local workforce by finding someone who will do the same work for less. The angle should be wage laws, job security and union rights. If immigration laws need to be tightened, that should be incidental and only sold as part of a heavily pushed package of labour legislation.

              The consequences that always, but always arise from inflaming debates around immigration are so severe and damaging that politicians and commentators with any influence should strenuously attempt to keep them as peripheral as possible. Immigration has a habit of making an issue of itself without any help from the political class, and the beneficiaries tend to be populists, racists and the law-and-order brigade.

              • Colonial Viper

                very enlightened perspective, however if you think the emphasis should be on union rights and tougher labour laws then let’s hear Labour start “pushing that angle.”

                But they won’t will they.

                So the field is left open to the anti immigration nationalists.

                By the way, you can be anti-immigration and not be racist.

                Just saying so that the bleeding heart liberal lefty set learns something.

                • Hanswurst

                  But they won’t will they.

                  No, because they are a disgrace.

                  By the way, you can be anti-immigration and not be racist.

                  Yes, which is why I said:

                  Immigration has a habit of making an issue of itself without any help from the political class, and the beneficiaries tend to be populists, racists and the law-and-order brigade.

                  Having said that, I’m not sure whether being anti-immigration is generally any more palatable than being racist. It’s less morally repugnant, but that’s not necessarily that meaningful. Being against immigration represents the same mentality as being a nimby about anything else, and shows a resistance to change without assessing real benefits beyond one’s own gut feeling. Believing that changing policy settings surrounding immigration might provide social benefits is different, but that’s not being anti-immigration.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    slice and dice the definitions with as much finessing as you want, sneer at the “mindset” as much as you want, the end result is the same: NZ should massively limit immigration and only allow that which serves our national interests.

                    • Hanswurst

                      Emphasising a distinction between being anti-immigration and being racist on a thread where immigrants have been compared to scabs is a very good example of slicing and dicing definitions. Accepting the sorts of hair-splitting and contortions that have public currency (“I’m not racist, but there are too many immigrants stealing our jobs”), while dismissing serious attempts to understand a situation as “sneering” sophistry, is a pretty textbook definition of populism. Oswald Mosley did it, Winston Peters does it, Key profits off the back of it. You do it. Further, in so doing, you’re sneering yourself.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      No idea what you’re on about. Fewer immigrants, tougher citizenship requirements, more NZ workers on the job, less ineffectial left wing hand wringing tut tutting, is what this nation needs.

                      is a pretty textbook definition of populism. Oswald Mosley did it, Winston Peters does it, Key profits off the back of it. You do it. Further, in so doing, you’re sneering yourself.

                      I’m going to write up a post about this tomorrow, now that you’ve pushed me. If you want to label me a racist populist blah blah trendy lefty sneer moniker of the day, so be it, I couldn’t care less.

                    • Hanswurst []

                      I couldn’t really care less whether you are a racist or not. My point is simply that the way immigration is being hammered as an issue in isolation by the Labour Party and some close to it is bringing some seriously simplistic scapegoating out of the woodwork. Just look at some of the comments on here, blaming foreign workers who have no meaningful power to alter the situation.

                      The blame for low wages and poor employment prospects rests with employers and legislators, and that needs to be made clear. Changing immigration laws would be one way of relieving downward pressure on wages, but fostering (deliberately or not) a culture of scapegoating and simplistic solutions can be the start of a slippery slope. Once immigration is down, how about we blame beneficiaries and the unemployed, or Maori? It’s not so long since iwi/kiwi, Rufus Painter or National’s dob in a beneficiary campaign of the late 90s. The thing is that, if wages aren’t being kept down by cheap immigrant labour, then the Right will use high real unemployment and draconian benefit measures, or some other mechanism. As long as it’s being blamed on someone else, they can keep at it.

                      I think this is especially important, since I can easily see National outflanking Labour on the immigration front at the coming election, while simultaneously launching a renewed attack on the welfare state. If immigration is the core of Labour’s criticism of the economy, what would they have to counter that?

        • Stuart Munro 1.1.1.5

          Tell it to someone who didn’t lose their industry to slave workers.

    • Sooo… “migration bad”?

      I’ll ignore the obvious counter-example of “well, goodbye everyone Pakeha, because we’re migrants too.”

      I agree with you that we should be training the people we have first, and making sure we’ve got vacancies for them. But we do need at least some migrants, as between expats and low birthrate, we wouldn’t reach replacement rate without them, and we’ve got a pretty good population level IMO at about 4 million.

      • WILD KATIPO 1.2.1

        Migration bad?

        Depends upon the real motives behind it . In this govt’s case,- its being used as a prop – and an irresponsible one at that. So in this case yes – ‘migration bad ‘ –

        What is wrong with controlled and responsible migration numbers that doesn’t stress the host country ?… or shore up and entrench unscrupulous labour laws and opportunistic employers ?

        • UncookedSelachimorpha 1.2.1.1

          Yep, not really a question of whether immigration is bad or not.

          More a question of whether we should try to build our country and economy on desperate poverty jobs. National thinks we should.

      • Colonial Viper 1.2.2

        But we do need at least some migrants, as between expats and low birthrate, we wouldn’t reach replacement rate without them, and we’ve got a pretty good population level IMO at about 4 million.

        Get a grip on reality mate we are likely to hit 5 million population in the next decade or so, maybe 2030 at the outside, and it is TOO MUCH

      • Stuart Munro 1.2.3

        Our birthrate would be higher if people could afford houses.

    • burt 1.3

      So what you’re saying is that in the 80’s total control of business, manufacturing, transport and banking moved from the hands of the unions to other groups and that’s a conspiracy. The previous X decades of union cartel behaviour, that wasn’t a conspiracy and you want things back your way because now you have to earn a living rather than just carry a union card ?

  2. Scott 2

    Stats and damned lies.

    Of all the stats about immigration the one I think is most telling is that people want to move here (or return here). We like to moan about it all the time, or at least some do, but in the end this is a pretty good place to be living.

    That does not mean we cannot do better, but let’s not pretend the place is collapsing around our ears.

    • Yeah, – you don’t get a tyre put around your neck and set alight with gasoline, you don’t send your kids to school hoping they don’t get shot to shit by a maniac- sure , – we get all that .

      But why have family’s sleeping rough in cars, wages that belong back around 1984 vintage, displacement by immigrants and priced out of a housing market because of speculators?

      There’s a fucking shitload of things these neo liberals have done to systematically wreck our country for the last 32 years – they and they alone are responsible for the economic and degraded political state this country finds itself in today.

      So going soft on neo liberals is like opening the door and inviting a thief in for a cup of tea.

      You just don’t do that .

      Not unless your some sort of weirdo that likes hitting yourself repeatedly on the head with a ball peen hammer.

      • Scott 2.1.1

        In the year to June 2016 most of our permanent or long term arrivals came here from (as in where they were last permanently resident) Australia (20%), the UK (11%), China (10%), and India (10%). While China and India might not be as economically or socially advanced as Australia or the UK, I don’t think that is a collection of people looking for and “anything is better” type of place to live… we are not talking Syrians and Afghans.

        Have you considered moving? You don’t sound very happy with life here.

        • WILD KATIPO 2.1.1.1

          Have you considered your housing portfolio or your children’s future?… you might consider downsizing that portfolio before the crash.

          In which case you might not be sounding quite so happy here as well – and might have to consider moving.

          • Scott 2.1.1.1.1

            Quite happy thanks. As I said in my initial comment, this is a pretty good place to live. A great place to bring up kids.

            • WILD KATIPO 2.1.1.1.1.1

              Mhmmmm… if you have a large garage or a spacious van to doss you and your family down in,… I guess we shouldn’t moan then , should we.

              • Scott

                You’re quite right. Don’t moan. Moaning only helps if you’re making a porno. Do something about it.

                In your case, if you are as dramatically unhappy with life in New Zealand as you say, move. Don’t live life in the misery you portray, get out, free yourself, move to a place you’d feel happier in.

                You might be helping the people living in cars in the process by vacating a place for them to live. A bit like an investor might by providing a property for rent.

                • The only moaning being done here is against deniers such as yourself – of which there are far too many of the far right neo liberal ilk.

                  Sadly.

                  If we were to take little people such as yourself seriously we would be expected blithely to accept any old shitty conditions .

                  That attitude you display is the same ” couldn’t give a fuck as long as I’m alright Jack ” attitude that saw children sweeping chimneys and working in coal mines doing 12 hour shifts 100 years ago.

                  But , if your smugly happy with the way things are, fair enough.

                  So do us all a favour and don’t moan when people raise legitimate issues that may threaten your smug , twisted, servile , complacent little bubble , huh champ?

                  • Scott

                    Take a look back at our conversation WK. It started because I had the temerity to say that the country I (and you) chose to live in is a pretty good place to live. Your response has been angry, aggressive, profanity laden, and really a bit sad.

                    Well, this is a pretty good place to live. Not perfect, but where is. Capable of improvement via changes, sure. In need of a revolution, no.

                    If you are as unhappy and disillusioned with life here as you say, do yourself a favor, move.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Scott, its a shame that you have so little pride in what NZ could be, and so apology laden for the sad state that this country is in.

                      The neoliberal NZ today is the absolute antithesis of what Kiwis hoped their country would be when they returned from service in WWII.

                      Oh I agree, if you are earning above the average wage of ~$56K pa and you freehold own your home, life is very sweet in this country.

                      As long as you turn your nose up and look away from the NZers hungry and homeless on Queen St.

                    • Scott []

                      I have both pride in what it is, and aspiration for what it could be. Perfect? No, of course not. Hell in a handcart? No, of course not. But the reality of it is that if you think there is about to be some revolutionary change, you’re going to be disappointed. If that upsets you as much as it seems to upset WK, then save yourself an ulcer. Move. Life is too short to spend it as angry as WK seems to be.

                    • And the whole tone of what you have been saying all this time is basically Que Sera , sera…

                      And that’s the problem….

                      What is this ?…some sort of English sitcom where we all sit around the pub mumbling ‘ mustn’t grumble’ ???

                      There are serious issues confronting this country right now as we speak – and an even more serious situation looming on the horizon for this country’s domestic economy and its future credit rating aka the housing crisis – which is exacerbated by uncontrolled , poorly planned immigration policy’s that are only being used to bolster stats and downplay the seriousness to the general public of a do -nothing complacent govt that is too afraid to anything because it would impact on its housing portfolio/speculator voter base.

                      And all you’ve done so far is spout trite homily’s and platitudes about not moaning , not rocking the boat , same old same old, ‘ were so lucky ‘…ad nauseam.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      hi Scott, please don’t dance around the point that NZ is not the country it was intended to be, and instead has turned into a neoliberals banksters paradise.

                    • Scott []

                      Intended by whom?

                      Compared with the rest of the world I think it has turned out okay. Could be better, hopefully will be, but certianly could be worse.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Since you don’t understand these things Scott, we can agree to disagree.

                    • Scott []

                      It was a simple question, please don’t dance around it with an insult. You said it has not turned out as it was intended to be. Intended by whom?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Intended by the people who led this nation, who built our dams, and laid our rail, to ensure that every NZer would be cared for and looked after from the predations of capitalism, from the cradle to the grave.

                      As I said, not that you would understand.

                    • AB

                      “do yourself a favor, move.”
                      Hmm – am I seeing a pattern here? I was recently invited to leave the country of my birth by none other than ‘BM’ after I expressed dismay and disgust at children living in poverty.
                      I’m old enough to remember the pro-Vietnam war slogan from the late 60’s or maybe the 70’s: “America, love it or leave it”
                      Which implied that to criticise your country was proof of not loving it.
                      Are our local RW ‘friends’ trying same bullying tactic to shut down dissent, but overlaid with faux concern for the wellbeing of the complainant?

                    • Richard Rawshark

                      You came to stir. Be honest.

                      As for a good country to live. I’ve been to a few, Albania is better than here community and spirit wise. It’s all about perspective. Also here’s better for whom? The rich? The business people.

                      All down to perspective.

                      What we do have is a government ignoring sectors of the community, Doing some of the worst outcomes possible and masking their failures quite cleverly. Stifling media opposition and painting pretty pictures using spin.

                      We can all argue what’s good and bad, but at the end of the day, truth has truthful outcomes, IE homelessness will come back as real tragedies regardless of the spin.

                      Housing markets will crash.

                      Immigration will reach a maximum threshold

                      More Serious crimes will happen.

                      etc.

                      So it’s all good crowing as a nat and/or like people here moaning somewhere that no one hears, unable to get the truth/opposite point of view out.

                      But sooner or later the natural outcomes of these actions will occur.

                      On that day god /sarc help us all.

            • Gangnam Style 2.1.1.1.1.2

              “A great place to bring up kids”, we have some of the worse children suicides stats in the world, including children under 5 killing themselves, so I challenge the ‘great place to bring up kids’ meme.

              ” let’s not pretend the place is collapsing around our ears.”, tell that to the next generation or 2 of house seekers & entry job seekers.

              Just count yourself lucky you have the privilege of smugness, good to be you huh.

              • Scott

                Where would you rather live GS?

                I never said things were perfect, but don’t pretend it is hell in a handcart either.

                • I take it your thinking of redecorating that van you and your family are living in , eh mate?

                • ropata

                  Scott I agree many of us have a lot to be thankful for, but those of us fortunate enough to get a good roll of the dice have a responsibility to help others. Not pretend that the real, severe problems we face is a moaning campaign by the left. The original subject of this post is how the “good news” that Nact churns out is a deceptive PR campaign designed to make you feel good about NZ.

                  I recommend engaging your brain and admitting there is something very wrong in John Key’s New Zealand. Rivers and lakes are turning grey, fish stocks are gutted, wages are permanently depressed, housing is an ongoing clusterfuck. dirty politics is still operating under the radar, a million disconnected (poor) kiwis show no sign of bothering to vote, thousands of kids go hungry and sleep in cars.

                  Shame on us for believing the Nact party lies.

                  • UncookedSelachimorpha

                    +100

                  • Chuck

                    “The original subject of this post is how the “good news” that Nact churns out is a deceptive PR campaign designed to make you feel good about NZ.”

                    In a nut shell that perfectly explains the mindset of the activist left.

                    As in; Everyone else is dumb and blind…if only we could re-educate the masses to our way of thinking.

                    • ropata

                      no comment on the substance of the post then? just a stupid little rant about other people’s mindsets? i hope all the hungry kids enjoy eating your good news and sunshine.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      We must defer to your extensive knowledge of nut shells.

                • Red Hand

                  You had the temerity to say you think people want to move here because it is a pretty good place to be living and to bring up kids and you are proud of what it is and have aspiration for what it could be, not perfect and not a hell. The temerity makes your opinions sound dishonest.

            • Leftie 2.1.1.1.1.3

              What planet do you live on Scott?

              • mosa

                Leftie Scott lives on planet Key !!

              • Scott

                I live here by choice. I expect WK does the same. All I said was if WK is so deeply unhappy about his choice as he says he is, he should move to somewhere he’d be happier. Life is too short to be that unhappy.

                If he is waiting for the revolution, he is going to live a bitter life of disappointment. That seems a bit sad.

                • JonL

                  And therein lies your problem……you consider the population of NZ live here by “choice”…..a very smug, comfortable, middle class (in the worst way) opinion….as in….”everyone who finds life hard here can fuck off if they don’t like it because they all have enough for the air fare…….”

                  • Scott

                    That is not at all what I said. I was talking about WK. He seem profoundly unhappy about living here. I think he probably does have choice. If he is being honest about his anger, he should do himself a favour and move.

                    I suspect however that he will not, because his ranting is mostly hyperbole.

            • Stuart Munro 2.1.1.1.1.4

              To the extent that is true it is the product of a benign maritime climate, a low population, and the heritage of a cooperative and considerate society. The vicious erosions of neo-liberalism and the greed and incompetence of the Key Kleptocracy have made NZ hell on earth for those without secure jobs.

            • Anno1701 2.1.1.1.1.5

              ” A great place to bring up kids.”

              not in my experience at all…..

              and the experience of lots of people i know

              this is a classic one really…

              WHY is NZ such a great place to raise kids ?

              totally baffles me really, My childrens education slipped considerably when they changed from the UK education system , we have sky-high teen pregnancy and suicide rates, our youth smash them selves to pieces in unregulated/uninsured fast cars on the roads daily, Theirs no shortage of drugs/violence/crime & as we all know our level of child abuse are a national shame

              ” A great place to bring up kids.” righto , just like “100% pure NZ ”

              just a myth/sales pitch , NZ is an very VERY average place to raise children

  3. AmaKiwi 3

    Criminals buying up our land is a fantastic boost to GDP. Deduct that and what are the numbers.

    Oh, I forgot. We don’t know how much money that is because rich criminals are entitled to their privacy (secrecy).

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 3.1

      As they say, a car crash grows GDP.

      We should be chasing quality of life for all, not GDP.

  4. mary_a 4

    A good majority of rockstars burn and crash eventually, much sooner than expected, because they are unable to live up to the expectations put upon them by their “adoring fans” (read National supporters here).

    As for NZ’s growth. It’s only major growth industry at the present time is impoverishment, accompanied by homelessness. Then there is the so called building boom … Christchurch through a natural disaster, being used as one of the “feel good” factors of the economic upturn. Earthquakes being used as something positive for the rest of the country???? FFS!!!! Then there is the distorted construction activity in Auckland, where hundreds upon hundreds of shoe boxes are being built, one on top of the other, being passed off as family homes by this government, which eventually will become ghettos, worsening an already dire situation.

    Not a rockstar economy by any means. Just plain old bullshit to blind the faithful into believing something that is actually an illusion (rockstar), coming from a desperate deluded government drowning in its own putrid cesspit of corruption and lies.

  5. Leftie 5

    Economic lies about the “rock star economy”

    “The business media is all in an excited state over the fact that the headline growth rate for the New Zealand economy is going to around 3.5% for the year ending June. What they don’t tell you is that because of the artificial boost to the population as a result of the government opening the taps for new migrants the actual annual per capita growth rate is only 0.6%.”

    <a href="http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2016/09/13/economic-lies-about-the-rock-star-economy/

    Govt hails economic growth

    “The government is giving itself a pat on the back after the economy grew rapidly in the June quarter, but Labour reckons the true picture is not being painted by the figures.”

    <a href="https://nz.news.yahoo.com/top-stories/a/32624233/govt-hails-economic-growth/#page1

    • DH 5.1

      There is no ‘real’ growth Leftie, without immigration our economy would be shrinking.

      When people arrive here to live they need to buy a whole bunch of things that residents have already bought. Housing is the most obvious, then the likes of transport, furnishings & the accoutrements of employment etc.

      The point being that new migrants contribute far more to GDP than settled residents. That 3.5% population increase arguably accounted for 6-7% of GDP, possibly more.

      Immigration is a cynical political ponzi scheme. It only has economic benefits while it continues.

      • ropata 5.1.1

        Fucking great they contribute to GDP.

        But they don’t do anything else in the community, they take all the houses, they clog all the roads, they don’t bother to learn English, they don’t learn any social norms or politeness (coming from cultures where you have to claw and fight and backstab to get ahead), they don’t understand how democracy works (expecting nepotism, bribery and corruption to be the norm). They probably don’t vote, they don’t have any clue or appreciation for tangata whenua or the environment, they use all the facilities and institutions built by hard working kiwis, with zero appreciation. Half of the “jobs” they do are just importing crap from China, or setting up a 2 dollar shop for laundering money.

        We don’t need this kind of immigration.

  6. mpledger 6

    I was in Kaikoura and Picton about 18 months ago and so many of the service workers – at tourist attractions, cafes etc – came with foreign accents.

    I started talking to a young girl in a shop. She was going into year 13 and had two summer jobs – one of them because a family member owned the business and the other in the supermarket. I asked her what happened to the kids when they left school and she said some got farm work but most went to Christchurch to look for work or to train – usually for jobs in the big smoke, not for stuff relevant to Kaikoura.

    I can see why employers choose a 26 year old, uni graduates on their OE over an 18 year old school leaver – the former will have way more work experience, will need less supervision and training, will work for traveling money and will move on if they get shafted rather than cause a ruckus.

    But it’s going to kill places like Kaikoura and Picton. They can’t lose most of their 18 year olds, year after year after year to the big cities and not have it screw up their towns. All that will be left will be NZers over 65 and tourists servicing other tourists … and maybe a smattering of people who inherited the family farm.

    • Colonial Viper 6.1

      The establishmnt left wing is fine to see Auckland expand and expand and expand, until people don’t even have houses to live in, while regional NZ and provincial towns empty out.

      What a frigging joke.

      • Leftie 6.1.1

        But that’s what the Key NATIONAL GOVERNMENT are doing Colonial Viper.

        • Sabine 6.1.1.1

          Leftie, everything is Labours fault. Everything. 🙂

          its a bit like this

          https://cthulhuforamerica.com/

          vote Labour, cause voting for National is like voting for the lesser evil. Why vote for the lesser evil, vote Labour 🙂

          • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.1.1

            why vote for a market led, free trade practicing, neoliberal party at all?

            • Leftie 6.1.1.1.1.1

              Ask National supporters Colonial Viper.

              • Colonial Viper

                That’s an uninteresting endeavour. Far more interesting to ask a self-proclaimed “democratic socialist” party why it continues down that road at full speed.

                And why they believe that it has no connection with why its core voter base has fled it.

                • Leftie

                  I think Labour, that obviously still has a voter base, is well aware Colonial Viper. Labour is changing… out of small things big things grow. But why not put the focus back on the Nats? The current National government is inflicting the damage after all.

        • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.2

          Decimation of small town NZ started under Labour. Under Labour 5 Auckland houses became unaffordable for the average wage earner.

          • ropata 6.1.1.2.1

            for the last 9 elections kiwis have tried to vote in a government that actually worked for the people. instead we have just had a revolving door of neoliberal globalist lackeys.

            for me the biggest 2 issues have been 1. poverry 2. asset sales

            after Muldoon (misguided but decent IMO), every government has manifestly betrayed the people of NZ and every vote was a waste of my time.

            • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.2.1.1

              i would put our crumbling human capital in the top 3

            • WILD KATIPO 6.1.1.2.1.2

              @ ROPATA….

              And THAT …. is the root cause of so much of the social and economic devolution in this country.

              Thank you.

              It has mattered not if it has been a Labour or National govt. Since 1984 we have had nothing but this insidious neo liberal ideology riding roughshod over the wishes of the population to the point that it has become a sink or swim , dog eat dog , forced choosing between the lesser of two evils , – so much so that they now have us right where they wanted us – resigned, apathetic and dispirited.

              I would suggest a return to social democracy with a modernized Keynesian economic base.

              And for you neo liberals out there? … that means reigning in your excesses by regulation and yes… even the use of mechanisms such as tariffs. Tariffs that even your beloved example the USA uses to this very day.

              And that means no more free rides for the free marketers.

            • Halfcrown 6.1.1.2.1.3

              “after Muldoon (misguided but decent IMO), every government has manifestly betrayed the people of NZ and every vote was a waste of my time.”

              How bloody true ropata.

          • Leftie 6.1.1.2.2

            But not at the outrageous extent like it is now under John key though Colonial Viper and Labour have also been talking about how National has been neglecting the regions for a number of years now.
            When given a chance, Northland sure showed the way.

  7. Ad 7

    The political problem for a change of government is that the MSM and the banking and economic commentators keep reinforcing this “good news” of GDP growth, which really limits getting alternative messages either from Labour-Greens to the dispossessed citizen, or from them to Labour-Greens.

    Many have commented about how unconnected GDP is to lived reality. I generally agree. I see the GDP growth issue as a political problem caused by MSM messaging dominance.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 7.1

      +1

    • Colonial Viper 7.2

      Firstly, Labour loves GDP as a measure and it loved GDP as a measure during the 5th Labour Govt. And why shouldn’t they? It is the accepted neoliberal metric of top level economic activity.

      Secondly, the bottom 50% to 60% of the population has known with absolute certainty for years and years that the economy hasn’t been getting better for them; quite the reverse in fact.

      But they’re still not going to vote Labour.

      • Leftie 7.2.1

        “the bottom 50% to 60% of the population has known with absolute certainty for years and years that the economy hasn’t been getting better for them; quite the reverse in fact” under the NATIONAL GOVERNMENT, so why wouldn’t they vote for an alternative Lab/Green government Colonial Viper?

        • Colonial Viper 7.2.1.1

          I dunno, why don’t you ask the 81% of adult NZers who didn’t vote for Labour in 2014.

          Most of them were from the poorer deciles who have been doing much less well since Rogernomics.

          • Leftie 7.2.1.1.1

            What for Colonial Viper? that was 2 years ago and aren’t you being a trifle misleading and one eyed? Is everything always so cut and dried for you?

            Rogernomics was over 30 years ago, there has been a disastrous National government and in comparison, a successful 3 termed Labour government since then. And now NZ is being terrorized by the worst self serving National government in this country’s history.

            Can homeless people vote?

            • Colonial Viper 7.2.1.1.1.1

              I predict in the coming election, one in five kiwis will vote Labour.

              • Leftie

                Predictions like assumptions and can also turn out to be wrong. I would rather wait for the results on election day rather than waste my time guessing, as anything can happen.

    • Chuck 7.3

      As CV mentions Labour and the Greens love to use statistics as much as anyone else. They have no alternative message to give.

      That is how they come up with a “crisis” by using data to try and support it.

      And simply put – GDP does measures the performance of an economy. Most citizens understand this.

      “I see the GDP growth issue as a political problem caused by MSM messaging dominance.”

      You see it as an issue because it does not fit your narrative of NZ going to hell. Now if the GDP figures were in the negative (bad for the Government)…I bet you would be shouting the merits of the MSM reporting it.

      • WILD KATIPO 7.3.1

        And…..

        Te Puea Marae?

        The Salvation Army ?

        Women’s Refuge ? ( whats left of them )

        Youth Suicide Prevention ?

        How about the homeless family’s living in garages and vans?

        How about the parents of children forced to live in damp , unheated houses , – children with chronic respiratory disease?

        Paula Bennett and her $5000.00 bribes to get out of town – and another bribe to come back again?

        C’mon ! Add to the list ! – this is only a smidgen of what can be added.

        Oh yes – were doing so fucking well in John Keys fucking brighter future, aren’t we all now… so well things like this look positively encouraging when John Key promised to raise NZ ers’ quality of life 8 years ago.

        http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10468960/Aroha-of-McGehan-Close-flees-NZ

        This govt’s got a colossal nerve to even dare to show its face and bleat on about how we’re all doing so well.

        An absolute colossal nerve.

        • Chuck 7.3.1.1

          Why don’t you invent a time machine and transport yourself back to 1970’s?

          Mean while the rest of NZ can get on with whats required.

          http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/84344571/govts-750m-northcote-housing-project-a-sign-of-the-times

          • WILD KATIPO 7.3.1.1.1

            Why don’t you have a wee talk to these social agency’s and churches and the like and ask them their opinion of social health since 1984?

            You know the ones – those that have persistently spoken out against the effects of neo liberalism since 1984?

            Not quite the 1970’s?

            And sorry bud , – the time machines broken . But I have an alternative suggestion for apologists of neo liberalism such as yourself :

            Pull your head out of your backside and try being honest for a change. And by that I mean stop fantasizing about stats that bolster up your chosen ideology and take a good hard look around. Go have a talk to those actively trying to pick up the pieces of smashed family’s that have to operate on ever decreasing slices of the budget – then go explain to them why the GSCB and SIS get an extraordinary amount allocated to them to surveill the public of this country.

            And if you cant do that , piss off back to the USA where you too,… can sneer at the poor sleeping rough on the streets as you roar past in your SUV …. oh wait… you can do that here now thanks to your beloved imported neo liberalism.

      • Ad 7.3.2

        I would certainly start to worry if the unemployment stats started to go over 6% unemployed. In fact I think most people would.

        There’s no doubt this GDP number is seen as good news and narrows the field of discourse for the Opposition. They just have to be smarter and harder about how they show how hollow and brittle this economy is.

        That’s going to be tough, but it’s the task ahead of them.

  8. reason 8

    Nationals economy is like a rock star on a bender …………..

    New Zealand is the hotel room ……………..

    • Leftie 8.1

      What a mess!!! +1 Reason

    • North 8.2

      Difference here being that rockstars on a bender usually apologise (if disingenously), pay for the damage, and slink away to their next gig. Here they stay and blame and defame the minmim wage hotel workers whose raison d’etre is to ‘serve’, apparently. The picture of vile entitlement !

      This rock star shit is the construct of the National Party’s Crosby Textor minders. Rockstar shit pumped out to inculcate that an effete, simpering, lying drip of a man is truly a rockstar with whom we are just dying to have a beer. “Fuck the undeserving drug and booze addled poor. Go the illiterate preening narcissist !”

      Thank you the wannabe, wahanui, ignorant cafe society dolts of the MSM who applaud it.

  9. Ad 9

    We could also take the GDP (imperfect as it is) seriously and prepare for a really good economy.

    Construction and immigration will continue to suppress total unemployment in the cities.

    Tourism boom will continue to push specific regions.

    But if Fonterra posts a profit of close to $900m next week – best profit ever – and total Fonterra payout heads for $5.35, then many other regions will get a major push.

    I’m not saying there’s anything directly attributable to the government’s management in this. But it would be pretty hard for an Opposition to successfully claim that things are going downhill for many, when there are so many signals that they aren’t.

    • Wayne 9.1

      Ad,

      I think your plea is falling on deaf ears. Most commentators here (to quote Leftie) think most NZers are being terrorised by the govt for continuing the neo-liberal experiment.

      Enough Labour activists and parliamentarians read this site and take their cues from it. Therefore their rhetoric tends to reflect that everything in NZ is a disaster. But that is at odds with most peoples real world experiences. That is not to say there are no problems but trying to convince NZ’ers they are living in the worst of times is just seen by a large percentage of voters as stupid.

      NZ should have a viable opposition, one that has some understanding why their opponents are succeeding and not pretending it is all a gigantic con job. That way they can have realistic policies, and more importantly not trying to assert that everything in NZ is a disaster.

      The Nats leant that lesson during 2005 to 2008. We didn’t try and pretend that everything that Labour touched turned to clay. We gave them credit for things the NZ public had obviously accepted (Kiwisaver, Interest Free loans, Working for Families) and then set about proposing the things we would do and why they would be better. Some employment law reform, the tax package, RMA reform, tougher on crime, more accountability in welfare, restraining the size of govt, less petty regulation were the main things.

      I don’t see Labour doing the things that looks like it is getting ready for govt.

      • Chuck 9.1.1

        Well said Wayne, now if you were Andrew Little’s new Chief of Staff that kind of thinking would see Labour poll worries ease somewhat.

        • left for dead 9.1.1.1

          Well said Wayne, (I say that in ) my High most annoying voice.
          Wayne tell me, what was your roll in the building regulator changes which brought us what I would contented started the housing crises.
          Leaking homes

          Or will you just lift a buttock, an let out another enormous fart.

      • reason 9.1.2

        Well New Zealand did not see the tax haven the National party was building until the Panama papers ……. even though with Key wanking on about Jersey

        ” When officials in Moscow wanted to hide the Communist party’s funds in the last days of the Soviet Union, they put them in Jersey. When post-Soviet oligarchs wanted to obscure their ownership of assets, they structured them through Jersey. When South Africans wanted to avoid apartheid-related sanctions, they did so through Jersey.” https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/dec/08/fall-of-jersey-how-tax-haven-goes-bust

        and Nicky Hager became the target of nationals dirty politics unit for this article http://i.stuff.co.nz/business/money/8515361/Money-trail-leads-home-to-New-Zealand

        Wayne mapp was crying for us to get involved in an illegal war when he was in opposition

        http://norightturn.blogspot.co.nz/search?q=mapp%2Bwar

        ” In the leadup to the Iraq war, National MPs were howling for New Zealand to back the US and get involved. Then Foreign Affairs spokesperson Wayne Mapp complained that we had questioned US intelligence on WMDs (I bet he feels stupid now)”

        ” the fact remains that under international law, any non-defensive war waged without its approval is illegal and a crime. So when Wayne Mapp says he doesn’t want our foreign policy to be subject to a UN veto, what he is really saying is that he wants to wage war in contravention of international law and the UN charter – in other words, he wants us to be a rogue nation ….”

      • Red Hand 9.1.3

        The Nats are not talking about or doing anything effective to tackle the root causes of crime and the need for welfare. It’s hard to accept, but it looks like they basically don’t give a shit. Like it was with Muldoon, they are looking after their mates and not governing with the wellbeing of all in mind. You are doing alright but there are many non-voters who are not.

      • WILD KATIPO 9.1.4

        @ WAYNE

        And did that so called ‘ improvement’ for the people of NZ include those who are the working poor or the unemployed?

        How about the latest National scam – the attempts to sell off and privatize state housing?

        Or have you forgotten this other little scam / stunt so easily?…

        http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10468960/Aroha-of-McGehan-Close-flees-NZ

  10. reason 10

    Increased Housing stress and water quality that can only get shittier could be weak points for them ……………. with a side order of climate change fraud http://hot-topic.co.nz/moro-bars-and-triple-dips-geoff-simmons-fact-checks-paula-bennetts-clean-unit-claim/#more-15218

    And what type of dodgy manager comes up with contracts like this …. ” a contentious exemption of professional services firms – mostly lawyers, accountants and real estate agents – from being covered by anti-money laundering laws passed in 2009.” http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11706741

    Is Don King running the show ? …………………

  11. Scott 11

    To Colonial Viper:

    Sorry I could not reply above. I’m not sure how you purport to know the intentions of those workers that built the dams or the roads (or how they might have had a collective intention anyway), but even if you did what makes their intentions for our country any more important than the intentions of those went before them or came after them? Just that you like those intentions (or your perception of them) because they conform with your own?

    • Colonial Viper 11.1

      Hi Scott, I’m no longer interested in debating this with you. I have answered your question, and as I already supposed, you don’t understand the answer.

      In summary, I choose their view and their values of NZ over that of your neoliberal bankster mates.

      • Scott 11.1.1

        Fair enough. I’m not sure why you started handing out insults you seem unwilling to justify, but even if you hate the country you chose to live in I hope it made you feel a bit better about it. I’m off to watch some rugby then.

        Have fun playing keyboard revolutionary with the like-minded.

        • vto 11.1.1.1

          Why do you imagine people have a choice all the time?

          I mean really, that’s just plain silly.. and renders your opinions, on which that imagining is based, worthless

          • Scott 11.1.1.1.1

            I don’t imagine all people have a choice, and never said that. I was talking about WK, and about CV when he join the tread. I do imagine they have options.

    • joe90 11.2

      intentions of those workers that built the dams or the roads

      I was one of those workers that built the dams and I was doing it because it was my job and I thought every NZer would be cared for and looked after from the predations of capitalism, from the cradle to the grave.

      • Scott 11.2.1

        Would it be fair to say you did it because it was your job. And separately you hoped… Or was your aspiration for how we organise ourselves a reason why you chose to do the job your employer asked you to do?

        • ropata 11.2.1.1

          there used to be something called the “social contract” where joe90’s taxes went to support social programmes, and the nation as a whole benefited from projects like dam building.

          it can be hard to comprehend from where we stand today, after 32 years of Rogernomics, aka “fuck-you-nomics”

        • Red Hand 11.2.1.2

          “the job your employer asked you to do” This limits what the employees do and is one cause of lower productivity and lack of innovation.

          • Scott 11.2.1.2.1

            I agree, but hardly think the decision to build a dam or a road is a good example of it.

            I’m not sure we would want a construction worker on a dam build thinking it was okay to modify the construction as she went because she considered she saw a better way to design it.

  12. Ross 12

    Meanwhile, some farmers are slow on the uptake and are being taken to task. It’s probably the tip of the iceberg. Too many workers are being exploited by pernicious employers.

    http://www.mbie.govt.nz/about/whats-happening/news/inspectorate-to-fine-farmers-who-fail-to-act-on-employment-obligations

    • Ad 12.1

      We have such weak regulators in:

      – Banking. Reserve Bank may keep us stable but its ambit is ridiculously narrow. And far too many shady mezzanine finance criminals were never held to account by the SFO

      – Fishing. See the footage of Maui dolphins pulled up in nets. The footage of fish dumped. No prosecutions.

      – Streams and rivers. We all know the story of farmer owned-and-operated regional councils

      – Property markets. The times you hear of real estate agents being disbarred are incredibly rare, compared to the corruption in see all around me in both Auckland and Queenstown-Lakes

      etc. List get too depressing.

      I would seriously like a new government to smash the crap out of corporate corruption in New Zealand. We would all feel better about the economy generally if the rich were simply held accountable for criminal acts.

  13. Murray Simmonds 13

    According to “Investopedia”,

    “Measuring GDP is complicated (which is why we leave it to the economists), but at its most basic, the calculation can be done in one of two ways: either by adding up what everyone earned in a year (income approach), or by adding up what everyone spent (expenditure method). Logically, both measures should arrive at roughly the same total.

    So I take that to mean, among other things that

    (a) If every married couple in NZ were to suddenly file for divorce, the measured GDP would go through the roof and JK would be smiling ear-to-ear” and crowing about the “Rockstar Economy”. The increase in GDP would be due to the extra work heading the way of lawyers, marriage counsellors etc. Hard to see how the COUNTRY or the ECONOMY would be any better off, though.

    (b) Similarly, if house prices suddenly doubled, all the extra commissions payable to real estate agents would double (approximately). This too would contribute to a massive gain in measured GDP. Again I fail to see how this would be of any benefit whatsoever to the country or the economy.

    Take home message: GDP is a bloody useless measure of the health of the Nation’s economy.

  14. BlueSky 14

    I would say that not all growth is good. Many neoliberal policies pursued by the government have become a cancer that is destroying future generations prosperity and life. Like cancer it is destroying future life. Like cancer many do not know they have it until it is too late. Like cancer it acquires good cells and subverts the cells mechanisms to reproduce more of its fatal kind. Like cancer it has spread throughout the governmental body.
    Just because we have growth does not mean the country is healthy.

  15. Murray Simmonds 15

    I agree, BlueSky, “Not all growth is good”.

    However IMO is questionable whether the country even has growth. Sure, measured GDP may be up. But my question is this; “How much of the measured increase in GDP is derived solely from “growth” (i.e. increased expenditure) in the SERVICES sector?

    I’d be more interested in seeing a measure of what the country has produced in hard goods (i.e. with services excluded). Because in the end that is what creates or maintains jobs. And that is what we sell locally and overseas.

    NZ, the USA, even China have shown big increases (“growth’) in their service sectors over the last few years. In my view these increases in services merely mask the “true” growth (if any) in their economies as measured by GDP.

    In NZ simply measuring GST collected in any one year might be just as “good” as measure of “economic growth” as our current measures of GDP (because practically all goods and services are taxed in NZ).

  16. maninthemiddle 16

    “I’m still all for a better measure of economic “health” than GDP & its growth…”

    Yes, of course you are. Like all leftie’s you’re in denial of how well NZ is doing, to the point of rejecting traditional and sound measurements.

    • ropata 16.1

      the fact that a few people are making $$$ like bandits does not mean that the rest of NZ is doing well.

    • Stuart Munro 16.2

      It’s the feral gibbering far-right neo-liberal cultists like yourself that have broken with tradition MiM – redefining problems instead of solving them.

      The hell with that!

      And the hell with you and all your disgusting kleptocrat mates.

      • maninthemiddle 16.2.1

        I am neither ‘far-right’ or ‘neo-liberal’. And our government certainly isn’t, despite your delusions.

        • North 16.2.1.1

          So what are you MITM ? The adage – “sounds and walks and looks……” – does come to mind.

          • maninthemiddle 16.2.1.1.1

            I’m centre right. As is most of NZ.

            • Paul 16.2.1.1.1.1

              Like Genghis Khan was centre right.

              • maninthemiddle

                I’d be happy to engage you in positioning on the political spectrum.

                  • maninthemiddle

                    Did it. I am bang on the centre line between left and right, and one square into libertarian.

                    • Paul

                      So what answers are dragging you to the left, do you think?
                      Because the only views we hear on this site would push you off the chart on the right and off the chart as a libertarian.

                    • maninthemiddle

                      “Because the only views we hear on this site would push you off the chart on the right and off the chart as a libertarian.”

                      An example?

                  • Chuck

                    Hope you don’t mind Paul but I have just clicked onto the link you supplied and completed the test.

                    Now I consider myself centre right (but have voted centre left in the past).

                    The result from the test has me slightly left and slightly libertarian…in other words close to the cross hairs in the graph.

                    Being labeled “far right” on this blog makes me smile 🙂

                    • maninthemiddle

                      You’re close to my result. Most NZ’ers are centrist/centre right, hence voting patterns for the past 30years.

                    • Naki man

                      I am slightly left and slightly authoritarian
                      and i agree with Chuck and Maninthemiddle.
                      I would be interested to know if Paul is on the graph.

                    • Chuck

                      Yes, it would be interesting to see where some of the activist lefties are on this test…Paul / OAB / MM etc?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Libertarian invents valid political measuring device, said no fact based analysis ever.

                      Ayn Rand’s witless cult is one of the axes? How convenient.

                      Why doesn’t it measure truthism and conspiracy drivel too?

        • Stuart Munro 16.2.1.2

          ‘Our’ government is so corrupt and dishonest its position on the left/right scale is largely irrelevant. They have proven themselves incapable of managing the economy and delivering social services and your desperate flurry of denials and excuses doesn’t make them a whit better.

          • maninthemiddle 16.2.1.2.1

            This government has proven themselves to be amongst the best economic managers in the western world.

            Look Stuart I remember when people on the far right used to make the same crazy claims you’re making about the Clark government. NZ governments are not infallible, but to label them corrupt just shows how desperate and out of touch with reality you are.

    • North 16.3

      Exponential increase in cars and people movers in public parks containing entire families is NZ doing well ? You’re fucked Muck !

      • maninthemiddle 16.3.1

        “Exponential increase in cars and people movers in public parks containing entire families is NZ doing well ? ”

        It’s a sign of people making bad choices. On the other hand, low debt, internal accounts in balance, low inflation, low interest rates, high employment, low unemployment, solid and sustainable growth all add up to the country doing very well indeed.

  17. mosa 17

    At the end of the day we could adopt these alternatives….if we really wanted to.
    These ideas should be pursued by the Labour party and give us a REAL choice instead of more of the same .
    Maybe were still a few years away yet before we wake up and realise it can be better.
    We live in hope there is a Key-neo lib free NZ if we are given the choice to vote for it.
    Canada did !

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