Open mike 24/02/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, February 24th, 2022 - 141 comments
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141 comments on “Open mike 24/02/2022 ”

  1. Tiger Mountain 1

    While the Wellington Police sort out their approach–“are they Robocop or Rainbow cop?” at the occupation around Parliament, it seems business as usual for Auckland Police who have been aggressively treating striking First Union members at international pallet company Chep in Penrose. Trespass notices were issued at the behest of Chep management to move union members off the public footpath on O’Rourke Road,–the notices were soon withdrawn as their unlawful nature was pointed out. Neighbouring workplaces have been supporting the picket and bringing snacks organiser Anita Rosentreter said.

    https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=First%20Union

    note; link is to First Union FB page, Chep posts are near the top.

    Chep pallets including plastic ones are a vital if modest part of the supply chain for supermarkets and other retailers.

    • Adrian Thornton 1.1

      Thanks for that update TM…pretty hard to find much info on that strike out side union FB pages etc…funny how our state national media outlet RNZ has stock market news and updates half a dozen times but no time to report any news about workers and their news…..

      • Tiger Mountain 1.1.1

        Exactly, all through COVID the NZ middle class, entrepreneurial SME types and big business have swamped any working class voice on RNZ.

        The NZCTU has not helped either with its timid position. They should have been calling for payments to be made direct to workers through IRD not channeled through employers via the “high trust”–joke–model.

  2. Hamish 2

    Re mask effectiveness and science.

    Saw a lot of comments in here recently

    When it first hit I was surprised the govt did not push masks.

    Bitched to local mp that the home help for my 80+ parents was refusing to wear a provided mask and got nowhere…

    Then I loked on line.

    Found published works that told me why..

    One was lab testing of standard surgical masks with viral aerosols with diametes of 2.5 to 4 micron and Found them to be 0% effective at stopping them!

    Paper on N95's measured and found " an minimum average pore size of 30micron"

    N95's are rated to stop 95% of 0.3 micron dust particles and uses electrostatic charge to catch tem.

    But the mask material is hydrophobic

    Many pre covid studies find masks ineffective at stopping the flue .

    So I now accept that they are useless at stopping COVID

    Got any scientific links to change my mind?

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    [I see you’ve changed your username since last time you commented, please stick to the username from today from now on. – weka]

    • Robert Guyton 2.1

      Change your mind?

      Why would anyone bother trying?

    • weka 2.2

      How it works here is the commenter provides evidence for their argument and assertions of fact. You’ve made a number, so now please back that up.

      Also, flu and covid are caused by different viruses. There’s research now coronavirus itself and masks.

      • Incognito 2.2.1

        Don’t hold your breath. This commenter (under a different alias!) is another recidivist non-linker who likes to pull things out of certain places and copped at least one ban in the past for this.

      • hamish 2.2.2

        I put it in the convoy section as that is where I saw a discussion on masks. oh well.

        Forgot what user name I used previously, was it Gyrogearloose?

        On the ban, from memory I was given 4hr to respond or I would be banned. Did not find that until over a day after the deadline expired,… oh well…

        0% filtration efficiency

        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC5209731/

        “a smallest average hole size of 30µ “

        https://www.nature.com/articles/s43246-021-00160-z

        link to article that cites and links a number of studies

        https://www.sott.net/article/434796-The-Science-is-Conclusive-Masks-and-Respirators-do-NOT-Prevent-Transmission-of-Viruses

        Yes flu and covid are different viruses, but they the differences between them are effectively nothing when it come to the impact on the physics of the behavior of aerosols

        • Incognito 2.2.2.1

          Forgot what user name I used previously, was it Gyrogearloose?

          Yup.

          On the ban, from memory I was given 4hr to respond or I would be banned. Did not find that until over a day after the deadline expired,… oh well…

          You were given 48 hours to respond to a moderation request last time and failed to comply in just over 83 hours at which point you were banned for 6 weeks: https://thestandard.org.nz/media-crisis-may-be-most-problematic/#comment-1768459. It looks like your memory is not serving you well.

        • UncookedSelachimorpha 2.2.2.2

          Coupla misinterpreted technical articles and the actual conclusions from a link to an unreviewed article (published on a conspiracy "news" site) written by a sacked physicist with no particular expertise in the field – although he does have a background in climate change denial.

          Why bother.

          There are plenty of reputable peer reviewed articles from reputable sources that prove masks work against covid transmission in the real world (which is the proof of the pudding). Here is one that gives background on how masks work as well.

          • hamish 2.2.2.2.1

            Looked at the paper you linked.

            Not sure what is going on but all through the paper, all the clickable links in the body of the article, although they all appear to have unique different hyperlink addresses, just pull up another copy of the initial article.

            The web address that results on clinking on a link brings up a new page, and in the browser bar it shows a different address from the link you provided, but the page is otherwise identical

            Can't see where where they did any actual expeiments themselves, and the lack of good clickable links makes it hard to see where they got their information.

            "Coupla misinterpreted technical articles" care to elaborate?

            At least the sacked physicst can make links work properly, as the articles he list come up when you click on them, and some of them are actual experiments rather than just comments on other comments

            P.S, how does spell check work in here? It underlines mistakes in red, but the usual right click on the underlined word just brings up "paste"

            • McFlock 2.2.2.2.1.1

              A single click on a link selects the bibliography in the vertical bar on the right hand side of the screen and scrolls to the selected citation. There is no need to open the link in a new page.

              Additionally, a cursory examination of the article suggests it is a review of current research and how it applies to the use of masks. It is akin to a textbook section, rather than a piece of primary research. It even has "mini review" at the top left of the page, and the abstract describes its article as a "review".

              So, with that in mind, perhaps give it another go.

              • UncookedSelachimorpha

                Thanks, yes, it is a review article. Of course review articles are still of lesser or greater quality and are still peer reviewed when in reputable journals.

                There seems to be a large volume of research on masks vs covid lately, so a recent review article is a good place to go to for an overview.

                • hamish

                  No luck with the link problem so I have to manually find them in the list of references at the bottom.

                  Way too much waffle for my liking…. but I persisted, Chapter 4.3 looked like the one that actually gets down to it..

                  Some selected quotes from there

                  "4.3 Cases studies on protection effective of masks"

                  "As a non-pharmaceutical intervention to control virus transmission during the influenza pandemic, persistent use of masks significantly reduced the risk of influenza-like-illness-associated infection (Cowling et al., 2008; "

                  This is the link to cowling in case the link did not paste well

                  https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0002101

                  Quotes of note…

                  "randomized to 1) control or 2) surgical face masks or 3) hand hygiene." ( the arms)

                  "The laboratory-based or clinical secondary attack ratios did not significantly differ across the intervention arms."

                  Now that looks to me that the mask arm was no different from the control arm, i.e. the masks had no effect….

                  Rather at odds with what the article you cited claimed the result was

                  And again,"Coupla misinterpreted technical articles" Please elucidate…

                  Regards Hamish

    • dv 2.3

      How about linking to the published works!!!!

    • weka 2.4

      mod note for you above.

  3. Adrian Thornton 3

    Good bit of balance on the Ukraine crisis…which is of course not forthcoming from 95% of western MSM news sources at this point….

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqVCMZdnb3k

    • francesca 3.1

      Thanks Adrian ,

      always appreciate your links

      I think it's vital to always listen and attempt to understand the other's point of view…so rare in the constant barrage of partisan and manipulative news stories we're subjected to in the world of geopolitics

      I haven't read Jonathan Steele for a while .but I've always been impressed by his cool head , knowledge of his subject and ability to look beyond the "outrage" of the day for historical context.He must have enough mana to freelance and not be captive to any one news outlet .Here he looks at what's going on in Ukraine, coming as close to explaining Russia's stance as he can get away with in a partisan British newspaper

      https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/23/putin-narrative-ukraine-master-key-crisis-nato-expansionism-frozen-conflict

      For all those cod psychologists wondering what Putin is thinking, he laid it out , clear as a bell back in 2007 at the Munich Security Conference

      https://tass.com/politics/1401215

  4. pat 4

    "If New Zealand wants to incentives native plantings, then it will have to be by direct subsidies. All such subsidies have an opportunity cost of other activities that have to be foregone. Those activities might be less ICU beds in hospitals, less houses built for the homeless, or less police officers. "

    https://www.interest.co.nz/rural-news/114495/carbon-forestry-rules-are-going-change-high-likelihood-unintended-consequences

  5. Ad 5

    $9.60 per kilo for milk solids!

    Just the kind of lift the economy needs.

    Fonterra lifts milk price forecast, mid point now $9.60/kg – NZ Herald

    Now, if only we had a strong regulator that integrated fresh water, wastewater, and stormwater together.

    Press on Minister Mahuta!

    • adam 5.1

      Now, if only we had a strong regulator that integrated fresh water, wastewater, and stormwater together.

      Press on Minister Mahuta!

      100% agree, well past time.

    • Peter 5.2

      Wow, $9.60 per kilo for milk solids! Farmers will have enough confidence in their cash flow to buy more utes and tractors and drive to their groundswell protests and complain that their world has ended.

  6. Rosemary McDonald 6

    The takeaway here for NZ is that when we look at a country like the US which has had a very high death toll and a big chunk of its population resistance to protection measures, we see how it could be for us if we go with 'omicron is mild'.

    All is most definitely lost if we in any way compare ourselves and our Covid outcomes with the US. Think about it for a few seconds weka. There are quite profound differences between us and the US in terms of our general health and living conditions and our public health systems.

    The only real common ground is that us and the US are the only countries that allow Big Pharma to advertise their wares direct to the consumer.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-to-consumer_advertising

    Seriously…this 'frantic hand waving spittle flecked we are all doomed run and hide, lockup/down, jab jab jab until the jab works, mask until all you're breathing is CO2 and your brain clouds over, make little children feel like plague carriers so they can't dance/read/play sport without a jab that won't stop them infecting anyone anyway, ignore completely to the point of blackout censorship the adverse effects from the jab on our young people, and spend the next however long waiting for Big Pharma to come and save us all has really got to stop. Or we should simply bend over and kiss our collective arse goodbye because this is it The Apocalypse.

    Have you never heard of 'self fulfilling prophecy'?

    If there ever was a time for us to exercise mind over matter it is now.

    Collectively.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • Robert Guyton 6.1

      Hi Rosemary. Might I ask you(particularly) a question, or at least, pose an idea for your response?

      There is much anguish about the harmful effects, to some people, from the vaccine (myocarditis etc.) due to the spike protein in the vaccination.

      Omicron, which is regarded as highly contagious and likely to reach most or all of us eventually, carries these spike proteins, responsible for the harmful side effects as described for the vaccine.

      Do you think it stands to reason that there will be a far greater incidence of these harmful effects, following Omicron's spread across the country, at all levels of society?

    • weka 6.2

      that's two ways you've misrepresented my arguments.

      One, I don't believe that all is lost, at all. I think we are in a good position to limit the damage if we take omicron seriously and stop with the 'omicron is mild' narrative. I made a compelling case in the post for why that matters.

      Two, you said,

      this 'frantic hand waving spittle flecked we are all doomed run and hide, lockup/down, jab jab jab until the jab works, mask until all you're breathing is CO2 and your brain clouds over, make little children feel like plague carriers so they can't dance/read/play sport without a jab that won't stop them infecting anyone anyway, ignore completely to the point of blackout censorship the adverse effects from the jab on our young people, and spend the next however long waiting for Big Pharma to come and save us all has really got to stop. Or we should simply bend over and kiss our collective arse goodbye because this is it The Apocalypse.

      This has absolutely nothing to do with my feelings or views on covid, omicron or NZ's pandemic response. It's from your imagination. Yours. You can think whatever you like, but you cannot project your own personal doomer fantasies into my posts, beliefs or comments.

      This is now a clear pattern of behaviour from you. You twist what I say to fit your own agenda about the pandemic. You are welcome to comment under my posts again when you stop doing that, but not today. Have it out in OM.

      There are a few reasons I am doing this. One is for my own wellbeing, you're basically just trolling now. Two, it's better for the community to contain this particular pattern in OM. Three, I have a long and deep commitment to the pathways out of the binary and looking for solutions for all of us (covid and climate/eco crises especially). Which you would know if you got off your high horse, listened and engaged with people where they are at instead of using their comments as a spring board for yet another diatribe.

    • Incognito 6.3

      https://www.health.govt.nz/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-vaccines/covid-19-pfizer-vaccine-side-effects-and-reactions

      https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/vaccine-report-overview.asp

      If you consider this a “blackout censorship the adverse effects from the jab on our young people” then you have a vivid imagination or poor literal skills (or both).

      Then again, asphyxiation can do strange things to your perception and cognitive abilities. I’d loosen your mask & nose clips to avoid “mask until all you're breathing is CO2 and your brain clouds over”.

      When you say “mind over matter”, do you mean exercise your mind to alter facts and reality to construct a narrative or to fit with one that suits you and/or found somewhere on the internet?

      The irony is that you mention “self fulfilling prophecy”.

      • weka 6.3.1

        thing that really fucks me off about this is that immunity is impacted by stress and our response to stress in particular, and that includes our beliefs. Not so much mind over matter, as mindfulness within matter.

        What could have been an amazing opportunity for the hippy crowd to teach mindfulness and meditation, and curation of belief, and how it helps wellbeing in multiple ways has been lost, and instead we have people who are just as fearful in their own way attacking those who depend upon the pandemic response.

        And yes, massive irony.

        • hamish 6.3.1.1

          Dr Chriss Martenson on Peak Prosperity did a video on first years medical data on covid comorbidities. ( sorry no link… )

          He was not surprised that the single worst risk factor was obesity

          But was surprised at the second worst

          Fear and anxiety based disorders…

          One poster joked that the more worried you are about covid the more likely it is to kill you…

    • Craig H 6.4

      From a study published by the US CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e3.htm

      In a multistate analysis of 222,772 ED and UC encounters and 87,904 hospitalizations among adults with COVID-19–like illness during August 26, 2021–January 5, 2022, estimates of VE against laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 declined during the Omicron-predominant period compared with VE during the Delta-predominant period. During both periods, VE was significantly lower among patients who received their second mRNA COVID-19 vaccine dose ≥180 days before the medical encounters compared with those vaccinated more recently. VE increased following a third dose and was highly effective during both the Delta- and Omicron-predominant periods at preventing COVID-19–associated ED and UC encounters (94% and 82%, respectively) and preventing COVID-19–associated hospitalizations (94% and 90%, respectively).

      Estimates of VE for 2 doses of an mRNA vaccine were higher against COVID-19–associated hospitalizations than against COVID-19–associated ED or UC encounters, especially during the Omicron period, which is consistent with possible vaccine attenuation of severity of COVID-19 disease but was not observed in this network previously (1,8). This study also found that immunocompromised adults had lower third dose VE against COVID-19–associated ED and UC encounters and hospitalization, which is consistent with trends observed for VE following a second dose (9) and is consistent with recommendations for a booster dose for this group 5 months after the additional primary dose.§§§

      The findings in this report are subject to at least seven limitations. First, VE estimates from this study do not include COVID-19-associated outpatient visits or non-medically attended COVID-19. Second, the median interval from receipt of dose 3 to medical encounters was 41–44 days; thus, the observed performance of dose 3 is limited to a relatively short period after vaccination. Third, the reasons for the decline in VE during the Omicron period are unclear; however, the drop in VE during a short period suggests increased immune evasion by the variant. Fourth, limited data during the Omicron period reduced the precision of the VE estimates and precluded tests for effect modification. Fifth, despite adjustments to balance the differences between unvaccinated and vaccinated adults, unmeasured and residual confounding (e.g., wearing a mask and close contact with persons with COVID-19) in this observational study might have biased the estimates. Sixth, genetic characterization of patients’ viruses was not available, and analyses therefore relied on dates when the Omicron variant became predominant based on surveillance data. The Omicron period of predominance in this study likely includes medical encounters associated with the Delta variant. If VE is reduced against medical care associated with Omicron variant, this study likely overestimated VE. Finally, although the facilities in this study serve heterogeneous populations in 10 states, the findings might not be generalizable to the U.S. population.

      These findings underscore the importance of receiving a third dose of mRNA COVID-19 vaccine to prevent both moderately severe and severe COVID-19, especially while the Omicron variant is the predominant circulating variant and when the effectiveness of 2 doses of mRNA vaccines is significantly reduced against this variant. All unvaccinated persons should get vaccinated as soon as possible. All adults who have received mRNA vaccines during their primary COVID-19 vaccination series should receive a third dose when eligible, and eligible persons should stay up to date with COVID-19 vaccinations.

      That's the discussion of findings and although it's quite long, seems pretty clear that vaccination works, and while 3 doses are better than 2, 2 are better than 0.

    • aj 7.1

      NATO is not a defensive alliance, and we never meant to be one. And that's the nub of the issue.

      Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty does speak to collective defense, it is difficult to see NATO's military operations since the end of the Cold War as being defensive in any way.

      • Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia had not attacked any NATO member, yet this did not stop this “defensive” alliance from launching an offensive war on Yugoslavia and facilitating its dismemberment.
      • Libya. The Gaddafi regime launched no attack on a NATO member; however, that did not stop this “defensive” alliance from launching an offensive war to usher in an era of mass rape, open slave markets and a litany of war crimes.
      • Afghanistan. Not legal under international law, and certainly not the act of a defensive alliance.

      And we are expected to take the UK, USA seriously when they talk about freedom and democracy, at the same time they turn a blind eye to authoritarian regimes that are pro-West. Poland, Hungary, Egypt or Saudi Arabia, and Saudi involvement in Bahrein and Yemen?

      • aj 7.1.1

        Much has been made of Putin's 22nd Feb speech, selectively quoting paragraphs to suit their own narratives.

        From francesca's Guardian link well above:

        Does he want to turn the clock back? People often quote his statement “the demise of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century”.

        But it bears pointing out that he enlarged on it later, saying: “Anyone who doesn’t regret the passing of the Soviet Union has no heart. Anyone who wants it restored has no brains.”

  7. I think the government's announcement of further help for struggling businesses is next to useless in terms of helping the businesses in most need.

    https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/02/21/govt-announces-new-business-support-scheme-for-omicron-outbreak/

    For those hospitality and tourism businesses already having had huge drops in income, it is going to be very difficult for them to demonstrate a further 40% drop from a base that is already very low.

    It seems to me that the businesses most likely to qualify are those that have been OK, but may have had a substantial drop in income due to freight delays and the like caused by Covid that have affected their income and cashflow in the short-term. Or building companies that can’t get supplies of gib or whatever at the moment and hence can’t finish houses.

    It will be much easier for them to demonstrate a 40% drop in revenue than many hospitality and tourism business IMO..

    If I am correct on this, then the businesses who need the support the very most, may well be the ones who miss out.

    That would be very sad, and evidence of a poorly targeted policy.

    • Blazer 8.1

      I was a bit surprised to see an Air BnB operator on T.V moaning about the Govt support package being too little,surprise given his loss of revenues.

      With a rental shortage,I thought it may have crossed his mind to change his business… model.

  8. Belladonna 9

    Dunedin Covid testing rate is extraordinarily high – 1 in 5 positive.

    My pick is this either indicates a very, very substantial outbreak (way higher than the current numbers), or that people are only going to get tested where they have symptoms, or are a very close contact (family member). No 'worried well'

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-omicron-outbreak-very-high-rate-of-dunedin-cases-shocks-epidemiologist/VZUVZN7VD2U7Y54CEVMG7M3OFM/?c_id=1&objectid=12506778&ref=rss

  9. Belladonna 10

    Also schools making a strong case to be allowed to use RATs to keep teachers in front of classes.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-omicron-outbreak-12-rapid-antigen-test-last-resort-for-schools-spending-300-a-day-on-relievers/INUP7CV43B2576TQKWMF2CA5SQ/?c_id=1&objectid=12506650&ref=rss

    I know one teacher who's been out of school for 4 weeks – close contact (though not household contact) on 3 separate occasions, so required to isolate. [Note, all were friends/family members – she's not out nightclubbing!] She doesn't have Covid. RAT testing would have allowed her to be back in class.

    The current testing and isolation regime also does nothing about asymptomatic cases (much more common with vaccinated people and Omicron) – where a teacher has an asymptomatic case, caught from an asymptomatic case – so no symptoms prompting anyone to get tested. Routine RAT tests catch that situation as well.

    • logie97 10.1

      4 weeks out of school? Would you mind advising when that school year started? Presumably that teacher has yet to be in front of a class.

      • Incognito 10.1.1

        pre-school cheeky

      • Belladonna 10.1.2

        School started back in last week of January. Person had 2 days in front of the class – and has been out since then. Due back at school tomorrow. How long for, is anyone's guess.

  10. Just Saying 11

    Completely agree, Julian.

    Thing is, the severity has been over-hyped because it was decided that we needed to be treated like children in an authoritarian family. Anything to get everyone vaccinated. And surprise – there been a backlash.

    Omicron has proven to be less dangerous and less unpleasant than the flu. The flu is awful, but for most it ends. For some it is too much. What is critical is how infectious this virus is.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • weka 11.1

      Omicron has proven to be less dangerous and less unpleasant than the flu

      If you want to make claims of fact like that on this topic, you have to back them up with evidence at the time. Back up here means a quote, an explanation from yourself and a link (videos need a timestamp). Don't expect other people to take claims like this at face value, or to do the mahi of reading off site to find out what you mean, onus is on the commenter to do the work.

  11. Adrian 12

    It is not the government installed red zone restrictions that are hurting hospitality, people just do not want to go out and understandably too. If all restrictions were dropped right now these places would still be empty. The hospo mouth-almighties just can’t get their head around the fact that it’s a fucking pandemic.
    For their information I’ve heard there is a few bars and cafes going cheap in the Donbas and I’m sure the authorities there would be pushing shitloads of subsidies their way!

  12. weka 13

    Not infallible, but if you put this into a twitter search box, you will get a list of locations of interest.

    location (from:nzcovidbot)

    eg Dunedin (from:nzcovidbot)

    https://twitter.com/search?q=Dunedin%20(from%3Anzcovidbot)&src=typed_query&f=live

    Official listings are here https://www.health.govt.nz/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-health-advice-public/covid-19-information-close-contacts/covid-19-contact-tracing-locations-interest

  13. Just briefly from the 12 noon press conference Hipkins Bloomfield on phase 3

    over 5000 cases today

    205 in hospital

    More detail on locations etc at 1.00pm.

    Protest at Parliament has become a location of interest.

  14. Just Saying 15

    Weka, there is so much contradictory info and commentary. This is one of a ton of articles. Tim Spector, based at Kings College, London, is tracking Covid symptoms in the UK. There have been millions of participants in the past two years:

    What are the symptoms of Omicron? | Medplus

    Is it omicron or a cold?

    As we head further into the depths of winter here in the UK there are some pretty nasty colds going around, as well as the perennial flu. The ZOE COVID Study app data tells us the symptoms caused by the current COVID variants are very similar to those of a regular cold. This means that it's not possible to know for sure what you've got based on symptoms alone. When the rate of COVID is high, a new sore throat, runny nose or unusual fatigue should be treated as COVID until you've been tested.

    Because contributors to the ZOE COVID Study app log any daily symptoms they're experiencing, as well as any COVID test results, we're also able to track the prevalence of non-COVID colds. Just three months ago, around one in 12 people with new respiratory symptoms tested positive for COVID. However, with omicron around 50% of "new colds" currently are, in fact, COVID.

  15. joe90 16

    Get boosted and if you can't stay home, wear a mask and scan in.

    New Zealand will move to phase 3 of the Omicron response at 11.59pm Response Minister Chris Hipkins confirmed today.

    Hipkins confirmed ahead of the Ministry of Health 1pm press release that the community case total today sits around 5,000 cases.

    The new case numbers meant New Zealand will move to the third phase of the Omicron response.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-omicron-outbreak-covid-cases-top-5000-today-omicron-phase-3-response-from-midnight/ZNICOD2BFJ2MSFMUY76X3E5VXA/

  16. Jenny how to get there 17

    How to get there?

    Well here we go. (Well it's a start anyway).

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/127872839/we-drive-new-zealands-first-allelectric-ute

    Let's hope this marks the beginning of the end of the Groundswell rebellion against the Ute tax.

    (Which is really an anti-government, anti-science, pro-extinction rebellion).

    • Tiger Mountain 17.1

      This got some of the blokes going below…wanking on about specs etc.

      The world will end if you can’t get your fossil fuel double cab apparently–but that's what blokes said when cigarette smoking was banned from public buildings, and when “poofters” got rights like heteros, and gays could marry, and when NZ went Nuke Free and when digital took over from analogue…but of course the world did not end–yet–if more people wake up and get active.

      p.s. I have owned 15 US V8 powered cars in my life, mainly FE block Fords ’61 Galaxie Town Victoria, ’58 Custom 300, 60/61 Fairlane x 3, ’59 Ranchwagon 2 Dr, etc. but have not used one as a daily driver for 20 years. Those days are gone imo. Car fans should keep them if they want and use them a few times a year like a vintage railway and leave it at that.

      • Shanreagh 17.1.1

        As one who saw the original convoy arriving in Wellington from start to finish I was struck by the numbers in the convoy of those double or single cab utes with one or two scowling male occupants in the 30-40 age group.

        I have often found (by unscientific observation) this is the group that is fiendishly threatened by the PM being a youngish, attractive female person and the source of those 'pretty young …etc sayings and billboards. .

        The scowlers could have been influenced, on the day, by me giving them the fingers or thumbs down* as I passed on the day but I have noticed that these ute drivers seem to be a generally scowly bunch.

        *Conclusion drawn from wind speeds, meteorology and physical conformation is that it is easier to sustain a thumbs down position than a fingers position – whether two (NZ) or one.

        I am sure that when this protest is written up in the annals of history this will be an important point on why ordinary citizens were powerless to stop the convoy in it tracks!

        • Tiger Mountain 17.1.1.1

          Agree Shanreagh. Male insecurity and blatant sexism accounts for a lot of the nastiness the PM receives.

          I put a big banner sign on the front fence outside our place on a state highway for the “Tractor and Ute” protest last year and the sour looks we got. The sign said “Natz = Climate F**kers!”

  17. Ad 18

    For those who missed the release of the latest child poverty statistics:

    Government Lifts 66,500 Children Out Of Poverty | Scoop News

    Not easy to see the impact of most recent benefit increases or most recent COVID impacts,

    Government Failing On Child Poverty | Scoop News

    Be interesting to see CPAG's take on it.

  18. Adrian 19

    Unfortunately Jenny it’s rubbish, looks like a Ute, weighs more than a Ute, using twice as much resources as a small car, goes half as far as a ute, tows a third as much as a ute., it is only two wheel drive so for its weight can not be driven on a sloping slippery surface. It is the worst form of green washing, incredibly wasteful and likely to be dumped when owners find out how useless it is. Proper large useful EVs are still a few years away, best to wait for one of them and not waste valuable resources on junk.

    • logie97 19.1

      Adrian, where did you get your information from? What do most agriculturists and tradies need their utes for? Not mountainous four wheel terrain work. They have tractors for that. On the other hand you could pop down to many rural golf courses this afternoon and see how many tradies "essential" vehicles are parked there.

      • Ad 19.1.1

        From experience we need our utes to come onto site which is usually offroad, carry many different kinds of equipment, carry four people, never break down, have low maintenance and high resale, and be treated like a ute should. We have several thousand of them.

        As for the likes of golf courses, soccer fields, triathalon courses, yacht clubs, hunting forests, cycle forests, and rugby fields, far be it from me to tell the moist left to stop trying to reinvent the whole of New Zealand culture into some eco-pony-fairy tale.

        • logie97 19.1.1.1

          So what did you use before these all important utes came on the scene?

          How often did you need to replace your vehicles, really? Was it as soon as you had depreciated them on the books so you could then sell on a perfectly good one in order to get the latest. I know some humble farmers who are still managing with their 15 year old Toyota 4wd drives – not the flashest vehicles but doing what they wanted them to do.

          Hang on to your 3-4 year old vehicles for the moment, they are probably still under warranty anyway.

      • Puckish Rogue 19.1.2

        Adrian is right, it doesn't take much mud or even just wet ground with a slight slope to render a 2wd basically useless

      • joe90 19.1.3

        Its' braked towing capacity of 1000kg v the diesel version's 3000kg tells you all you need to know.

    • Ad 19.2

      We have no choice but to be a market follower here anyway.

      We'll only ever get Singapore's castoffs as usual.

    • McFlock 19.3

      Fair call compared to an actual working ute. Looks a bit shit, really.

      But I suppose going for the SUV crowd is a start. It looks like a station wagon with an uncovered boot.

      I think I've travelled behind one of those salespeople making a long trip with power left over, too: bloody thing was going at half the speed limit down the highway, pissing off the queue of vehicles behind it. When you're being tailgated by a 49cc, you're holding up traffic lol

    • Jenny how to get there 19.4

      OK Guys. Think of it as a test bed for that number 8 wire Kiwi male tinkering.

      Chuck a couple of Tesla power walls in the back and hook them up, see what that gets ya.

      Or how about trying to fit one of those drives to the front axles?

      Now get the government to subsidise the price down to the third of a standard ute.

      No fuel tax, no fuel full stop.

      That should spark that creative Burt Munroe back of the garage spirit.

      Just don't blow yourselves up. A&E are at capacity at the moment.

  19. logie97 20

    The ACT party's leader has released a further policy on Covid today, and it's all about cost/benefit analysis of the current government health policy.

    I have heard people talk of this and the extension of it has been that the world needs a pandemic, there are too many people anyway and its just sad if the older people suffer.

    Now it might be stretching a long bow, but on April 25 these same people will strut around their neighbourhoods, chests out, wearing their poppies… you watch.

    • Barfly 20.1

      There's votes in it so they will be there….

    • McFlock 20.2

      I have heard people talk of this and the extension of it has been that the world needs a pandemic, there are too many people anyway and its just sad if the older people suffer.

      Fucksake, the avengers really deserve shit for popularising the "snap" theory amongst those morons.

      A dramatic reduction (say halving) in population will do nothing, n o t h i n g, to cure the world's problems, and all it will do is take us back to the halcyon, environmentally-pristine days of the 1970s.

      What ACT and the hand-wave-death-away crowd will never do is address the actual cause of our problems, including overpopulation: capitalism. It's solved a lot of problems, too, but things like climate change and tobacco use and leaded petrol were continued far longer than necessary due to capitalist industry lies to suppress the truth and the data. Hell, opioid addictions and 737max crashes can enter that list, too. Same cause, different problems.

  20. Puckish Rogue 21

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300524723/corrections-pay-offer-a-kick-in-the-teeth–managers

    Doesn't state what their pay offer was, I wonder if its more or less than the 3% (over two years) frontline officers were offered

  21. Puckish Rogue 22

    Things I learned today:

    Honk honk is, apparently, an acronym for Heil Hitler:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJXmtVtsoLU

  22. Barfly 23

    Asking for advice I intend to get a will kit and complete it my issue may be

    I married in October 1995 wife left the country February 1996 not to be seen again – I am still married – am I free to regard this a relationship of short duration and therefore irrelevant to my will or do I have a problem in allocating my meagre possessions to be distributed as I wish?

    Any help is greatly appreciated.

  23. McFlock 24

    shit missed the “reply” button again

    • Barfly 24.1

      Tried community law centre they state they do not deal with wills … periodsad I was planning to make my nephew executor and sole beneficiary (he knows what I want to be done). No one would be challenging it I just don't know if it has to be registered or approved or et cetera – could it trip up on something stupid indecision

      • McFlock 24.1.1

        argh bugger. Some family did it through Public Trust, some used local lawyers. I have three beans and a teapot, but will get around to it sometime.

        But yeah, it's best to do it early and careful, apparently.

      • Belladonna 24.1.2

        Suggest Citizens Advice Bureau – they often have a lawyer volunteering, that they can refer issues to.

        IIRC – if you are married – regardless of the length of the relationship, your spouse is entitled to half the estate. Now, if they never come to claim it – that may well be moot. But I think that whoever is doing probate is obliged to try and find them.

        If you want to tidy things up yourself – then you could simply apply for a dissolution. The paperwork trail is fairly long, but not impossible.

        https://www.justice.govt.nz/family/separation-divorce/apply-for-a-divorce/apply-for-divorce-on-your-own/

      • Brigid 24.1.3

        Gah

        Just read this.

        So as you said, just get a will kit. I'm assuming it will tell you who you need for a witness, and who needs to retain a copy – you and the executor, I guess

    • Incognito 24.2

      did it hit the fan, again?

        • Incognito 24.2.1.1

          you found it!

          • McFlock 24.2.1.1.1

            The evil bigdata youtube AI has been trained to give me Airplane, Police Squad, and Die Hard (only 1 & 3 but mostly 1) content up front.

            • Incognito 24.2.1.1.1.1

              LOL

              I was meaning the reply button.

              With YT, you’d need to clear your browser and cache or it will remember everything, including what you had for lunch as The Chairman can attest wink

              • McFlock

                lol fair call

                new things that lawyers reckon should be put into wills these days – passwords etc so social media knows you're dead easily, and the other is clearing the browser history 🙂

  24. Puckish Rogue 25

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/covid-19-omicron-jacinda-ardern-plots-path-to-end-of-some-vaccine-mandates-but-warns-omicron-wave-will-hit-first/T5WKTX7MHCF3A6XKJOG63TUSUI/

    'Ardern cautioned that the traffic light system was likely to remain in place for the winter to combat not just Covid, but the return of the flu, following two winters where the flu has been kept largely at bay thanks to Covid measures.'

    The Never Ending Lockdown

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WN0T-Ee3q4

  25. Joe90 26

    Today I found out that Russian has 14 verbs of motion.

    https://twitter.com/hannahgais/status/1496273304340025347

  26. Sanctuary 27

    The Russian invasion of the Ukraine has begun by the look of it.

    • Puckish Rogue 27.1

      When Bush (Dubya) was in power Russia invaded Georgia

      When Obama was in power Russia invaded the Crimea

      With Biden in power Russia invades the Ukraine

      When Trump was in power Russia didn't…

      • Shanreagh 27.1.1

        Russia didn't have to invade anything with Trump as they already had the biggest prize – Trump's fealty and mind.

        • McFlock 27.1.1.1

          Well, it was only the biggest prize because of the fealty side of it. His mind actually cheapened the deal somewhat.

          • Shanreagh 27.1.1.1.1

            Yeah I think the mind was an added extra by Trump, he was sure it was worth something. Putin probably put it in the nearest rubbish tin as he left.

      • KJT 27.1.2

        They had already bought, Trump!

        • Puckish Rogue 27.1.2.1

          So why not invade then, surely it'd be easier to invade a country when you have the President of the USA bought and paid for right?

          Or is it because Biden is weak, ineffectual and has dementia?

          We all know its because like all Democrats, except Hillary Clinton interestingly, Biden is weak

          Also capitulating in Afghanistan and supporting China probably doesn't hurt Putins chances either

  27. Sanctuary 28

    Good luck and God speed to the men and women of the Ukraine who are now defending their country from an invasion.

  28. weka 30

    Can someone please get me up to speed on how the RATs work for most people? Are they separated from the tracking system? Ie you pick one up and test at home and there’s no connection to MoH unless you contact them? Or do you have to register when you pick one up?

    Why is it taking 2 hrs to pick one up?

    • Cricklewood 30.1

      At the moment in Auckland you can only get them from a testing station the queues are massive. You're expected to selfreport your result on my Covid record. Sounds like they'll be easier to get next week.

      They're at least week late on the rollout, got a series of cases at work now from an asymptomatic staff member. Possibly would have picked if the rapid tests work had ordered had arrived. Planning on 3 x per week testing for all staff.

    • Belladonna 30.2

      Article about testing queues in Auckland. It's only dealing with the beginning of the day. But I can confirm our local testing centre was experiencing this level of volume right through the day (2 hr + queues)

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300525269/covid19-long-wait-times-at-auckland-testing-centres-despite-rat-handout

      I think that most people don't know you can get RATs from your GP. And, I know for a fact, that our local pharmacist was turning symptomatic people away – just too high a risk for the sick and elderly people getting prescriptions. They're not set up for contactless testing.

  29. Robert Guyton 31

    "Actually been, quite a few people down there, getting sick…"

    Brad Flutey.

    Casserole.

  30. Incognito 32

    Despite your recent ban warning (https://thestandard.org.nz/new-zealands-omicron-options/#comment-1853108) you’re doing it again 🙁

    I’ll let weka, who also happens to be the Author of this OP, deal with you. I hope she bans you for a good time!

    For the record, your italics appears to be a selective quote, but you have not provided the source link. Selective quoting can stem from ignorance (in this case science illiteracy) or from being disingenuous or both. Looking at the first linked paper, I’d say you are definitely science illiterate. Looking at your previous behaviour on this forum, I’d say you are definitely disingenuous.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • julian richards 32.1

      The use of italics wasn't a quote, it was emphasis, as I had been requested to do in the past…. but okay? If it's cancel culture you wish to cultivate, I'll accept this.

      I'm sorry if the sources weren't acceptable to you, I'll try harder.

      And if my previous comments didn't meet your virtuous ideals and your opinions… so be it. Yes I disagree with ‘some’ of the regular commentators here on some narratives, but it’s healthy to have debate isn’t it?

      • Incognito 32.1.1

        The use of italics wasn't a quote, it was emphasis, as I had been requested to do in the past…. but okay?

        No, not okay.

        Your italics are a selective quote from here: https://weather.com/en-IN/india/coronavirus/news/2022-01-19-omicron-infection-enhances-immunity-against-delta-variant.

        Why not acknowledge that?? As it stands, it is plagiarism and disingenuous.

        Don’t give me this BS about cultivating cancel culture when you fail to adhere to basic rules of quoting and citing. Similarly, my virtuous ideal and opinions, whatever you think they are, have nothing to do with your sly behaviour.

        The irony is that you think you’re contributing to 'healthy debate' angry

      • julian richards 32.1.2

        The real irony is @Icognito, Julian Richards is my real name. Nothing to hide, nothing to fear, right Icognito?

        Yes I piece together different pieces of information to formulate sentences, that as you point out, are also the same as others use of words… unbeknown to me, it doesn't make me as you claim disingenuous, nor a reason to dismiss and ask for bans/cancelling… It was a pretty general statement!

        And as you should be able to see and read from my posted comments, I provide quotations and links to these, as I have been requested. Call me sly, what ever, you don't bother me, but I clearly bother you. And I'm okay with that. Grrrrr

        • Incognito 32.1.2.1

          This is what you wrote in italics @ 5:37 pm:

          individuals previously infected with Delta variant could contract omicron, while the ones who caught Omicron could not catch Delta.

          This is from the link, the one and only, that I found and provided (you’re welcome, BTW):

          individuals previously infected with Delta variant could contract omicron, while the ones who caught Omicron could not catch Delta.

          Can you spot the difference? I cannot; they’re identical, word for word. Even the odd English and inconsistent use of capitals are identical. Yet, you claim that they happen to be the same “unbeknown to [you]” by chance? And you call the italics “a pretty general statement”!?

          Another ‘coincidence’ is that your second link @ 5:37 pm (to the Sigal study) has the same URL as in the link that I found. Wow! What a coincidence!! Your first link is to another submitted article on medRxiv but it has the expected URL.

          I don’t believe one word you’re saying. I think that you’re lying and that, as with so many liars when found out and challenged, you double down and dig yourself deeper into your hole.

      • weka 32.1.3
        1. we allow pseudonymous commenting here, because it means a wider range of people can take part in the debate. I take a dim view of people claiming they are using their RL name criticising people using a pseudonym, as if RL names are somehow more virtuous.

        2. I find it hard to believe that you didn't copy and paste that italicised phrase (it's not a common use of words), but really you could just have acknowledged it was a copy and moved on. Instead you've picked a fight with one moderator, and now have the attention of the author of the post. You got banned last time for wasting moderator time.

        3. don't make shit up about moderation. No-one is being moderated for their views, it's all about behaviour, not following the rules, and wasting moderator time. You've been told this before.

        I said last time I'd ban you if you did it again, but I'm actually impressed that you listened to UncookedSelachimorpha and acknowledged their argument was right. You've also been making an effort to provide links. In the hope of encouraging good behaviour, I'm just going to shift this to OM because it's now so off topic. I also suggest you stop arguing with Incognito and just accept that you got it wrong.

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