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Open mike 25/05/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, May 25th, 2019 - 287 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

287 comments on “Open mike 25/05/2019 ”

  1. Robert Guyton 1

    "I May be some time…"

  2. Jenny - How to get there? 2

    Any sober reading of the Zero Carbon Act would have to conclude that, like the ETS, the Zero Carbon Act is another cynical attempt to put off doing anything about climate change in the here and now.

    • solkta 2.1

      Fuck off. There is nothing "cynical" about it. Compromise it may be, but Shaw has worked extremely hard and done the very best faith best job he possible can. You on the other hand spend your life bleating on the interwebs.

      • James 2.1.1

        It’s just his best job isn’t very good according to a lot of people.

        • solkta

          You can fuck off too.

          • Robert Guyton

            I support solkta's comments.

            • Jenny - How to get there?

              Kia ora Robert,

              The Zero Carbon Act has not one measure to cut GHG emissions.

              Not one.

              It also lays out no measure at all of meeting the various targets.

              Without any measures to restrict them, or penalties for exceeding them, emissions will keep on rising under this legislation.

              “The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.”

              Winston Churchill

          • Adrian Thornton

            Nice to see such civil discourse unfold so early on a beautiful Saturday morning..nice.

            • Incognito

              TS is what people make of it. Same with politics, same with everything really …

              • Adrian Thornton

                Don't I know it!, still seems a bit brutal to start your first reply with ‘fuck off’, I mean I am known by some as a bit of a immovable and often insufferable hard arse, but at least I try and keep it a bit civil to begin with, it’s just good manners.

            • greywarshark

              Adrian James likes rough handling; that is his addiction. He presents so he can get tongue-lashed. Applied psychology and sociology is the major way we will grope our way through the fog of mishaps and occasional beneficent activities to the uncertain future that is there for some of us.

              • James

                “ James likes rough handling”

                i guess you use comments like that to women who cop it from their partners – don’t worry ‘they love it’

          • Cinny

            You may feel strongly about the issue Solkta, as do I but geeez, some of the wording in your comments don't help anything or anybody or your cause.

          • Psycho Milt

            I also support solkta's comments. We've had plenty of polite correspondence with people who can't seem to understand that Labour and the Greens don't have either the numbers in Parliament or the electoral mandate to implement the radical agenda these people would like. Every gain like the Zero Carbon bill is the product of hard-fought negotiations resulting in inevitable compromises. The people who continually greet those gains with contempt and dismiss the effort it took to achieve them can just fuck off, enough with the polite approach.

            • observer

              Agree. I'm all for civil discourse, but there comes a point where you just lose patience. "Wah wah only 5 out of 10 what's the point they're all the same blah blah …".

              Those idiots gave us John Key, and if they've forgotten everything in only 18 months, then they deserve Simon Bridges as punishment. (Unfortunately if they get him, so do we).

              • Sam

                It comes across as idiotic when you've got people like Cinny(apologies if I got that wrong Cinny) or people like [McFlock] who are infatuated with powering down and cutting growth rates while at the same time desiring to take pole position on the technological, financial and political philosophies of climate change. There's probably more to recommend against signalling how virtuous some one is by the level of internally incoherent dialogue of being outraged by political decisions than can be recommended. Y'know? If you're arguments with friends are stupid it's probably not the governments fault.

                • Robert Guyton

                  Sam – you have a particularly corrosive way of expressing yourself and I wonder if you are aware of it. Reading your comments leaves me feeling as if part of me has been attacked by acid and that's even when your discussion is with someone else; are you conscious of the effect I'm describing? Others here express similar uneasiness with your comments, I've noticed.

                  • Sam

                    Probably the more some one articulates their feelings to me the more I careless about it. If there's an attempt to communicate together then I'd take it under advisement.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Interesting response, Sam. Are you easily able to differentiate between feelings and observations? My observation is that people sometimes react to your comments negatively because of the corrosive manner in which you express yourself. Did you not think my comment to you was an attempt to communicate with you? Your response is unclear, regarding that point.
                      It seems to me that despite your dismissal of the expression of “feelings” by others, you delight in provoking feelings/emotions through your use of language. It seems a cynical ploy to provoke, then deride, the expression of feelings and emotion. Again, I wonder if you are aware of this.

                    • Sam

                      Well, the way I debate and I'll let you in on a little secrete is I want to convince the person I'm arguing with that there arguments are low IQ, dog shit basically.

                      I suspect it's more that words don't trigger me the way that users would normally intend. Y'know, I argue that being woke, that wearing feelings on ones sleeves or keyboard has morally bad consequences and leads to political polarization. And there's increased levels of cynicism about moral values in public life now that people are suffering from outrage exhaustion from being outraged at everything in order to show how good one is then outrage no longer becomes a reliable signal of serious injustice in the world.

                    • Incognito []

                      That is quite insightful for me, thank you.

                      Arguments don’t have an IQ; they have more or less merit and this is what should be debated IMO. If somebody makes an argument that has little merit, in your eyes, then commenting on their IQ is not debating the (merit of the) argument but a personal attack.

                      Similarly, judging somebody as “woke” is a personal judgement; you could be right or wrong, but when it becomes a ‘green light’ to attack them personally you are not addressing their arguments but tilting at your own personal judgment of them.

                      Being “woke” has become an overused and badly used cliché that further divides, separates, and polarises. Mean what you, say what you mean, and don’t use lazy labels that mean something else.

                    • McFlock



                    • The Al1en

                      Much more than a little secrete

                    • Sam

                      Here's another little secrete that differentiates me from the woke: I'm not trying to tell people what to do. I prefer people think for themselves.

                      Oh, and secret 😏

                    • The Al1en

                      Secrete – Discharge lol

                    • Sam

                      Do us a sneaky patero

                    • Sam

                      Sure if you want to nitpick, Incognito. I'm sure you are well with in your rights as a moderator to put certain words you are uncomfy with on some endangered species list. I'm sure some other description of internally incoherent rhetoric designed from the bottom up to signal how virtuous one is will again find some other meaning in pop culture.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Your little secretion, Sam, wanting to convince someone that their IQ is low (I presume that's what you mean. Incognito makes a good point re the difficulty of assigning IQ to an argument) is an unpleasant one. There are few people who would care to debate you, knowing of your intention. Many people who comment here enjoy debate and aim to prove their assertions right and their opponent’s wrong, I suppose, but only you, it seems, seek to label the arguments of others, "dog shit".

                      You claim to "prefer people to think for themselves", yet seek at the same time to denigrate their thinking with demeaning labels?

                      I find your claims unconvincing and lacking integrity, by which I mean your reasoning is poor.

                    • Sam

                      Sorry, just skim reed your comment rob. It's more probably that I didnt say or claim anything that's in your own head in an attempt to undertake Herculean mental gymnastics.

                      I would argue that IQ is a low form of measuring intelligence. Testing for IQ began as far as I'm aware as away for the US army to judge who was suitable candidates to join and I just don't think that's worth admiring.

                      Prefer EQ myself.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      You didn't say or claim anything that's in my head?

                      That's a relief.

                      Further to that "bot" thing: you often combine words in a way that looks like faulty programming, rather than a grammatical failing of a human: "away", for "a way", "careless" for "care less".

                      It's quite peculiar.

                    • Sam

                      Like I say. I'm not trying to tell people what to do. If I was trying to be a cancerous wanker then I'd apply for a job and speaka da interview language so I could tell people what to do for cash, not for nothing.

                • Cinny

                  Honestly, for me it was just too early for all the 'fuck you's' in the conservation.

                  • Sam

                    Just going to take a wild guess that you don't much drive over the Harbour bridge from about 5 in the morning to 9am.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Who could possibly "drive over the Harbour bridge from about 5 in the morning to 9am? That's 4 hours continuous driving? Is there a bridge-sweeping truck that might do that? Some one who's lost their way? Your logic is … loose, Sam.

                    • Sam

                      The Ferry. It's the only way.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Many of your responses seem only tenuously connected to the comment you are responding to, Sam. Many of the phrases you use seem more like those generated by a bot than a human mind; just an observation, not a criticism. I enjoy trying to make sense of your wilder witherings. The ferry surely isn't "the only way" given there's a bridge…

                    • Sam

                      I'd rather swim across the hauraki than drive in peak hour.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      5 till 9 is "peak hour"?

                      I see 4 in there.

                    • Sam

                      Least we know congestion hasn't eased.

                    • Cinny

                      Sam, ferries run from 6am JS.

                    • Sam

                      Northcote point jetti is the knurliest at that time of morning.

                    • Cinny

                      It's heartening to know then Sam, that more people are using public transport if that's the case.

                    • Sam

                      Aucklands transport corridors are not optimal. They're $100 billion behind.

                  • The Al1en

                    “Honestly, for me it was just too early for all the ‘fuck you’s’ in the conservation.”

                    That's what rapey assange thought

              • Rapunzel

                Unless you have a similar sort of agenda as National prioritised which was pretty much based on levels of immigration that pushed house prices rapidly into the stratoshpere and suppressed wages for the lowest income earners no govt would deliberately work against an agenda that would bring some rebalancing for the majority of NZers. Whether it is water issues, nurse and teacher wages, education, housing etc etc this coalition govt would I am sure love to hand every NZer what they wanted on a plate. It just can't happen and NZ needs them to be re-elected or be faced with another National govt and most thinking NZer know they do not want that.

                As for the media when it comes to "leaders" why after a story in the NZ Herald about the PM's "closest confidantes" does the one on Bridges begin from a fawning Audrey Young (I think) that he has fewer than the PM as if he is practising some "economy" in the face of her "excess". NZ knows how he can fritter $100k in a couple of months to try to prop himself up.

            • Incognito

              Personally, I don’t have a problem with ‘strong’ language, although it think it is no more effective that polite language. I do have a problem with pointless personal abuse and attacks. Problem is that the two easily cross over.

            • sumsuch

              Next a declaration of climate emergency, then doing what is needed.

          • mauī


          • James

            Ooh. Feeling a little pent up this morning are we snowflake?

            shaw is a waste of space – a laughing stock. From your comment I guess you can see it as well.

            • Robert Guyton

              James, if I may; in trying to wind solkta up, you are saying foolish things about a politician I support and while you have the right to do so, you are coming across as a light-weight and as frothy as.

              • Rapunzel

                I really wanted to comment on this "the phrases you use seem more like those generated by a bot than a human mind" but can't reply on that one

                Anyone reading as I am courtesy of Mothers' Day, how well my children know me – Ben Elton's new book "Identity Crisis". If ever a "truer word was said in jest" it is in there, the main theme is how people are sucked in and exactly how the "word" is spread – by the bot.

                I recognised myself in the variations as well I must admit but the problem is who has the most funds as usual to claim the majority of the "field", the only way to combat it is with numbers on social media, and even better in person out in the community, as well as getting people actually out to vote when they need to.

                • Robert Guyton

                  Convivial discussions amongst friends is the most powerful political force there is, Rapunzel, I reckon.

                  • Rapunzel

                    Convivial and I would hope productive.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      They generally are, Rapunzel and these days, increasingly so. I reckon it's the "new way" to effect change; inspired, good hearted discussion, followed by whatever opportunity for action presents itself.

              • James

                Robert – just because you support him – it didn’t prevent me (and others) seeing him as a useless waste of space.

                • Sam

                  So what duties are you saying James Shaw is performing poorly or are you using more eccentric views of the government? If I need examples of poor execution of policy I'd look no further than NOVA pay of the ANZAC upgrades. I get that Shaw's performance is below par but be honest, this government was handed piles and piles of dog shit by the previous government.

                • Robert Guyton

                  James; Sam answered you best.

                  • James

                    nice we have you to judge Robert.

                    You prefer it so a simple fuck off you supported earlier ?

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      "so a simple fuck off" James – language!


                    • Sam

                      It's just really difficult to shine shitty policy. I mean what the fuck was all those water quality targets Nick Smith tried to Shepard in.

                      New Zealand is a free society and open economy. If you can't handle that then the alternatives are limited to dictatorships, I hope Y'know.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Solkta said: "Shaw has worked extremely hard and done the very best faith best job he possible can" and I support that wholeheartedly. Your silly, lightweight wittering hasn't helped your cause at all, James. Sam made an accurate comment about "the previous government" and I support that comment as well. It's really not a good round for you, James; perhaps an early night with a cup of hot Bovril?

            • solkta

              I don't know why you would think from my comments that i am unhappy with Shaw's performance. I think he is doing an excellent job.

              My objection though was not about an appraisal of his performance but rather of his character.

      • Jenny - How to get there? 2.1.2

        I am presently having trouble posting more than a few lines at a time, or at most a paragraph, on this site. So post comments on the Daily Blog.

        “A reading of the Act reveals that it has not one single measure to cut GHG emissions, nor any measures at all to keep to the targets set out in it.”

        I defy anyone to say that it does….


        • solkta

          I barely care what you say here, except when you get offensive, so why would i care what you say over there.

          • Jenny - How to get there?

            Hi Solkta. I sorry that you find what I have to say offensive. I am not trying to be offensive. Believe me I don't wish to offend you. I am trying to deal in facts. And the facts are that the Zero Carbon Act does not include one measure to cut or even limit greenhouse gas emissions. Nor does it have any measures at all to bind a government or anyone else to the targets set out in it.

            My conclusion that, "the Zero Carbon Act is another cynical attempt to put off doing anything about climate change in the here and now." In my opinion is a reasonable conclusion to make, afterall the authors, including James Shaw, are not stupid people. They know that their bill, as set out, will make not one blind bit of difference.

            Yes a Climate Commission will be set up, whose task will be to hold the government of the day to account if they don’t meet the targets. The job of holding the government of the day to account is the job of the opposition parties.

            Under the Act the Climate Commission is being given zero statutary powers.

            The only way the Climate Commission can hold the government to account is in a letter to the papers. Or through a proxy raising it in parliament for them.

            And just like all opposition attempts to hold a government to account, can be ignored, and will be.

          • Jenny - How to get there?

            Hi Solkta. I sorry that you find what I have to say offensive. I am not trying to be offensive. Believe me I don't wish to offend you. I am trying to deal in facts. And the facts are that the Zero Carbon Act does not include one measure to cut or even limit greenhouse gas emissions. Nor does it have any measures at all to bind a government or anyone else to the targets set out in it.

            My conclusion that, "the Zero Carbon Act is another cynical attempt to put off doing anything about climate change in the here and now." In my opinion is a reasonable conclusion to make, afterall the authors, including James Shaw, are not stupid people. They know that their bill, as set out, will make not one blind bit of difference.

            Yes a Climate Commission will be set up, whose task will be to hold the government of the day to account if they don't meet the targets. The job of holding the government of the day to account is the job of the opposition parties.

            The only way the Climate Commission hold the government to account is in a latter to the papers. Or through a proxy raising it in parliament for them.

            And just like all opposition attempts to hold a government to account, can be ignored, and will be.

            • solkta

              I am not trying to be offensive.

              You suggested that Shaw was "cynical". If you asked me for an antonym of "cynical" one of the best i could come back with would be "James Shaw." If you don't understand why your bile is offensive then perhaps just give up commenting, you really don't seem to have a clue.

      • Jenny - How to get there? 2.1.3

        “The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.”

        Winston Churchill

        • Robert Guyton

          "In my opinion is a reasonable conclusion to make"

          That and "the truth" are not necessarily the same thing smiley

    • SPC 2.2

      It's fast following the international regime. Any change (GW at least) is international not local.

      Realising change locally is like waiting for philanthropy to finance public health and education one family at a time.

    • Macro 2.3

      While it's not what many who truly understand the situation would like it to be, it also puts demands for change on the many who either don't understand what the future holds, or do know and don't care. James Shaw has at one point said that if it upset every one equally then he would know that he had done his job. By that he means that he will have achieved what is politically possible and moved our country someway towards addressing our excessive GHG emissions.

      Having said that there was a student strike here yesterday joining the many thousands globally demanding action on addressing Climate Change.

      For a positive read I link to this article on Vox:

      One of the largest environmental protests ever is underway. It’s led by children.

      Kids are fed up with grown-ups’ inaction on climate change.


  3. Ad 3

    Anyone feeling any sympathy for Theresa May?

    Me neither. Inequality spiraling upward, Conservatives preparing to strip labour standards and regulation to smash workers and race the poorest of Europe to the bottom, and she fueled the vilest anti-immigrant rhetoric within her own Ministers.

    May the Conservative Party eat itself to death.

    • I think the best that historians will be able to say about her time as Prime Minister is that it wasn't quite as appalling as the term in office of her successor (whoever that turns out to be).

    • SPC 3.2

      Sure. Impossible job. Voted Remain and the grown up thing for a PM of the UK to do was to negotiate a deal.

      But making a deal the EU and getting her party to support it was difficult (most of her caucus preferred a no deal Brexit and were just stringing her along – running down the clock). So she was Bruised, Raabbed, Mogged, Haunted, slandered as Loathsome, but she never Gave in but Jived to her own beat until time placed the inevitable Mordaunt stake in her post Stewart dynasty heart.

      The soon to be (in June) caretaker PM (should that not be undertaker) will still have the privilege of hosting Donald J Trump in his orange spray painted face and hair brand glory. Delivering a blunt message – hand over Assange or you won't get a FTA on my terms. The USA will run a future Tory government as the Germans did the Vichy regime.

      • Incognito 3.2.1

        Is POTUS going to meet with ERII?

        • SPC

          Yes. And Melania. And all the adult children and their spouses.

          However those at the Palace are spared the overnight presence of the family because of renovations …

      • Macro 3.2.2

        Yep that just about sums it up. She was handed a hospital pass by Cameron. In many ways she did her best to make some sort of sense out of a can of worms. The rare possibility of a 2nd confirmatory vote on any "deal" is now a gone burger as well. There are 3 possibilities.:

        • accept the current terms as offered by the EU
        • no deal
        • revoke article 50.

        I don't think UK Labour come out of this smelling of roses either. Indeed, UK politics is probably at it greatest ebb ever. There is far too much factional discord across both major parties, and it is not good for the country.

        Indeed, I'm almost coming to the conclusion that the best way forward is for a no-deal Brexit! This would indeed shut up the alt-right and alt-left – they would have their way, and the reality, from the resulting chaos would be such that even the most ignorant of non-thinking voters who voted Brexit would suddenly be demanding to rejoin the EU. Whatever happens – the UK will never be the same again, and it will take years to recover from this disaster – if at all.

    • RedLogix 3.3

      Well I can empathise with how she felt at that moment and I can respect her persistence in the face of what turned out to be insurmountable odds. I know I certainly would not have had the courage to face down the situation she was in.

      This doesn't mean I have to sympathise with the political austerity the Tories have inflicted on Britain the in the slightest. But neither is reflexively demonising all conservatives a useful tactic either; it just promotes more polarisation and more failure to actually get anything done.

      • Incognito 3.3.1

        Well said.

        • Anne


          Theresa May is not a demon. I don't like her political bent but she did what she thought she had to do. I have empathy for her situation.

      • Adrian Thornton 3.3.2

        You are right in totally rejecting Tory austerity, any person with any kind of human empathy at all would feel the same,but by the same token I would also say that instinctively I feel that trying to move any Tory left would be as fruitless as Labour NZ's own abortive attempts to this in the past. Those who vote that way, don't move in any significant numbers politically (which is the one and only thing I respect them for, at least they know what the believe).

        Corbyn is right in steadfastly holding to his and Labours Socialist manifesto, and aim at bringing on voters from other demographics and persuasions, thereby when Labour (hopefully) win, it will be on the back of a public mandate, and so they can govern without constant comprise and kowtowing to the right, which as we are witnessing in NZ today, is a bit of a disastrous way to try and govern.

        But of course these sort of politics takes real conviction, something that even Corbyn’s most severe detractors would acknowledge him to have.

      • greywarshark 3.3.3

        I don't respect her or feel sympathy for her. She was a brainwashed class-ridden fellow-traveller from the Tory camp. She wanted to be PM and get the glory that they gave to Margaret Thatcher. She wasn't as good a schemer and didn't have the same level of advice I think. She took on the job but wasn't bright and politically nimble enough to resile from the impossible and unreasonable actions that had been left for someone truly thick about applied education in real life but merely trained to be head girl prefect always doing his/her best.

        She attended a Roman Catholic primary school in Begbroke – which closed down – such an unfortunate coincidence of name and circumstance. May 'won a place' at a State Grammar School and attended the University of Oxford, read geography at St Hugh's College, and graduated with a second class BA degree in 1977. …After graduating in 1977, she worked for the Bank of England. She also served as a councillor for Durnsford in Merton.

        A woman plotting her way to power – but it's uneasy for the top banana. When the coalition government was formed after the 2010 general election, May was appointed Home Secretary and Minister for Women and Equalities, but gave up the latter role in 2012. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresa_May

        Aspirational women may not want to be concerned about 'women and inequalities' but if May had been she would not have agreed to be involved in getting out of the EU which would inevitably increase inequality. She requires daily medication – May was diagnosed with diabetes mellitus of type 1 in November 2012. She is treated with daily insulin injections. Breaking with the EU means that flows of imported medication will be disrupted. She must know this and how important medicine is to her, and also to the many who rely on them for maintenance of life. She gambled with the UK at the European casino table and lost. Respect for her – no dice.

        • Rosemary McDonald

          May 'won a place' at a State Grammar School

          To put this into context…she will have had to pass the 11-plus exam in order to get into the more academic grammar school as opposed to the more vocational secondary modern.

          And, she considered the whole primary kids having to prove their academic worth while barely weaned so wonderful that she put some effort into resurrecting the 11-plus.


          • greywarshark

            Thanks Rosemary – I didn't have time to go into that aspect, wondered but moved on. The conservative woman wants everything to be competitive I think; you have to prove yourself worthy to be alive and don't expect to have fun while you do it. And worse, if you don't prove worthy and have your hand out for regular help, then don't ever consider laughing again. No choccy biscuits either, or hot showers.*

            (Jenny Shipley, Ruth Richardson, and most Nationals and women from the rigid, frigid relidgious would be the same. (They could stand one of them in a kitchen pantry near glass shelves to keep food cool in summer.)
            *Thinking of hot/cold showers made me think of the schools that were set up to harden up sissies like Gordonton that I think Prince Charles went to.

            Looked it up and up comes abuse. Abuse is in the news constantly lately after that soldier talked about it happening in the NZ Defence Forces in the past. It is a constant it seems so here is a link to the Scottish school.

      • Ad 3.3.4

        About 25% of single parents in Britain now live in poverty.

        About 30% of children are in poverty.

        Income of the lowest three-fifths has barely kept up with inflation in 20 years.

        The poorest fifth now spend over 40% of their income on accommodation.

        25% of the poor have anxiety or depression.

        In Scotland, nearly half of all households live in unfit dwellings.

        40% of working-age UK adults have no qualification.

        I haven't even got to the health system.

        This is the responsibility of the Conservative Party.


        Great stuff Cameron passed the same-sex marriage legalization.

        If you are not clear about what the Conservatives wanted to do with the UK economy once it leaves Europe, May's Chancellor spells it out in black and white for you here:


        The Conservative Party should die, as an entity. Die.

        If it weren't for the fact that millions of citizens will suffer needlessly as a result of their continued policies, I would welcome a further leadership selection in which Conservative leadership candidates are about to be turned into pieces of media-meat to be ripped apart by their own colleagues, just as they have been for the last three years.

        • sumsuch

          Care more for the Scots. A recent history series about my people's country showed our competitive advantage in the 20th century was cheap labour. Still haven't discovered if they were poorer than the Irish, which I would feel like a scythe. Given the diaspora's massive success if we'd known we could have helped.

      • Siobhan 3.3.5

        Well I can empathise with how she felt at that moment and I can respect her persistence in the face of what turned out to be insurmountable odds.

        ….speaking of insurmountable odds..

        "More than 17,000 people have died while waiting to hear whether their claim for disability benefit had been successful, it has emerged.

        Ministers have been accused of “failing people at the most vulnerable point in their lives” after figures revealed 17,070 disability claimants have died while waiting for decisions on their personal independence payment (PIP) claims since 2013."

        Do you think Theresa empathised with those people? Respected their persistence in the face of what turned out to be insurmountable odds?

        Its not demonising..its called the brutal truth. The people of Britain are polarised, economically, socially, and Tory, and Centrist Labour policies are the number one factor. They are the people with power, they promoters of policies that nurture polarisation. The nutters just slip in there and take advantage of the situation.

        (Crikey..what a mess, still trying to get on top of ‘quote’ with this new set up.)

        • Incognito

          Do you think Theresa empathised with those people? Respected their persistence in the face of what turned out to be insurmountable odds?

          Are you saying that TM or some people simply do not deserve (our) empathy? If so, have you thought through the logical consequences of that? In addition, how do you judge people who empathise with TM?

          • Sabine

            she does not deserve empathy.

            she could have said no to the job – after all the choose remain

            yet she choose the job, she failed – and who ever else will take the job will fail as you cant' work with a party that actually does not want to work – see republicans in the US.

            it appears that her husband made a tidy coin – cause why not i guess



            so no, that evil women is gone, she will live her life in awesome riches and polite company meanwhile people in the UK throw themselves of quarries cause their pension got cut to nothing and a men weighing in at 6 stones is declared fit for work. May karma find her and give her her dues.



            The fellow at this video states it very well and so politely.

            why on earth would should anyone have empathy for her, when clearly she gives not a flying fuck about anyone but herself. It was her party that made her life to hell.

            • Incognito

              If you could save her life, in an emergency, for example, would you do it?

              • Sabine

                i live by the credo of 'above all do no harm'.

                yes, i would, i would give her painkiller, medication, take her to the hospital and make sure she be good, and then i would tell her that i hope she meets all those who died during her reign in the after live.

                This women has served no one but herself. She fucked her country so many ways. She and her party oversea the death of about 10.000 people – poor people, old people, disabled people, sick people, and she has the fucking gall to cry because she was fucking useless, was appointed to be useless? Nah, may she live a life of plenty, may she life long, and may the death visit her every night of her long, cushy life.

                I have enough of this empathy bullshit. these people kill us, err cull us. They starve us, our children, our elders, they sell our houses, our infrastructure, our hospitals to the highest bidder even tho it is us that financed it, build it, and maintain it. And they have the gall to cry because they are so openly incompetent that literally you have to resign because no one is standing for her bullshit anymore.

                You look to France, England, US and various other nations and you will realise that it is us who looses freedom and life, not them.

                so i have the exact amount of empathy for her that she has for me/us.

                and the same counts for the orange shit show in the us.

                • Bewildred

                  Dear you do go looking for extreme articles and extrapolate that as the norm Rather depressing I would have thought as a daily routine , a female Ed or Paul ( with more expletives) or what ever he goes by these days

                  By the way being back Ed I miss him

                  • mauī

                    Yes, we all miss him as shown by how much he still gets talked about here.

                    "being back Ed"

                    Well said.

                    • Incognito

                      People who try to circumvent a ban by using sockpoppets clearly are not fit to re-join TS as it shows bad faith on their behalf.

                      I personally don’t do requests for lifting bans place by others or handing out bans.

                      By all means, point out bad behaviour when you see it, but please stop making requests for people to be banned.

                      [This is a general comment]

                • Incognito

                  That is a good credo to live by, Sabine, but with it comes with consequences, as always.

                  Do no harm, help people in need, and empathise with others are what makes us human, good humans IMO. I can and do (albeit infrequently) empathise with people whose actions I detest. This is not virtue signalling but understanding that people are complex beings and without walking in their shoes, we have no idea about their reasons or motives. In fact, their reasons and motives may well be sub-conscious.

                  To be honest, I have no idea how you can withhold empathy!? You either have or feel it or you don’t. When I empathise with a person I intensely dislike – yes, it has happened – it opens up a whole series of questions. To be even more honest, I sometimes avoid those questions because I choose or want to dislike that person and continue that … This is quite a confession to make in a public forum but it shows you how important empathy (and its twin, compassion) is, for you, for me, and for humankind.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    Got me thinking. The effort required to empathise (e.g. to 'see' point(s) of contention from the opposition's point of view), can be proportional to the strength of belief in one's own view.

                    OR, the more certain I am that I’m right, the less time and effort I’ll put into considering alternative viewpoints. Does that make sense?

                    "Empathy is a multidimensional construct and requires the ability to perceive, understand, and feel the emotional states of others. According to most models empathy consists of at least three core components: (1) The ability to recognize emotions in oneself and others via different communicative cues such as facial expressions, speech, or behavior; (2) a cognitive component, also referred to as perspective taking or theory of mind, describing the competency to take over the perspective of another person, though maintaining the essential distinction between self and other; and (3) an affective component, that is, sharing of emotional states with others or the ability to experience similar emotions as others."

                    "As empathic abilities form an essential part of social functioning, the described deficits may lead to impairments in social interaction…"

                    • Incognito

                      That’s quite a handful there. Got a link?

                      I’d struggle most with the third component.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    Oops – the book chapter (if you can access it – it's behind a 'paywall' for me) may not be particularly relevant, but the free introduction began with that breakdown of the components of empathy which suited my reductionist turn of mind.


                    It was the first article to come up in this link on empathy, found using Google.


                    Maybe ‘Blog communication‘ is empathically challenged?

                  • Sabine

                    Good grief, this is patronising bullshit if ever there was.

                    the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
                    synonyms:affinity with, rapport with, sympathy with, understanding of, sensitivity towards, sensibility to, identification with, awareness of, fellowship with, fellow feeling for, like-mindedness, togetherness, closeness to;


                    i have no olike mindedness, togetherness, closeness, fellowship, sympathy, rapport, affinity with her. I don't identify with her. I am no fellow of hers. I am the currently lower middle class person that she would tax into an early grave/homelessness. I am that poor person that she would let starve. I am that person that would die under her austerity rules and you want me to have empathy with her?

                    I can't because i am not filthy rich. I can't because i don't want to kill people in the name of profit. I can't because i don't want to deport people to please racists. I can't because i don't want to take mobility vehicles away from disabled people. I can't because i don't think that a raise in foodbanks is a sytom of how the 'system' functions.

                    I don't have empathy for her, because i am so far removed from her life i don't have any idea how she could do the myriad of things she and her government did that could kill over 10.000+ people.

                    I don't have empathy with a mass murderer, even when that mass murderer is a state sanctioned multi billionaire in an expensive suit who was useless at her job, who was so useless that she could not get her party to do what her party wanted to do. She was as useless as tits on a bull. if And she killed a whole lot of people with her austerity measures, threw a whole heep of people into homelessness, hunger and misery. NO i don't have any empathy with her, and frankly i would check my moral compass if i would have .


                    • Incognito

                      I feel a little sad about your comment and that you view my deeply personal reply to you as “patronising bullshit”. At no stage did I tell you or anybody else how to feel about TM. Obviously, I have completely misunderstood and misinterpreted your comments and I apologise for that. I’m going to leave it at that.

                    • Pat

                      lol…well perhaps he meant to write ‘sympathy’…but I doubt she would warrant that either

                    • Incognito []

                      No, I meant empathy (and compassion) and I was quite clear about that, I thought, but it spectacularly missed and got thrown back at me. Not my intention and not what I was expecting, that’s for sure. It has been a pretty shitty day here on TS 🙁

                  • Pat

                    OK …would suggest difficult to expect empathy for an ambitious and blind to the point of self delusion politician from anyone other than that I would have thought….most people are a little more self aware

                    • Incognito

                      Yes, intention was good, example was wrong, delivery was poor. I’ve learned my lesson and will pull back on contentious issues where emotions flare up too easily as it only backfires. Still, there are other forums that are more suited for these kinds of in-depth conversations.

            • sumsuch

              I find care for animals often goes with disdain for people. Bit too much demonization of the opponents in Left blogs. Ruth, Roge and Jenny were worth it but since, whatever they were doing it doesn't deserve a media noose.

          • Siobhan

            I'm asking if TM empathised with the people dying and having lives of abject misery due to her policies. Given her determination to stick with those policies among many others, its clear she did not.

            To my mind that would indicate a very very unpleasant, nasty, individual.

            You are welcome to 'empathise' with such a person. I passed no judgment on that.

            But if If you are asking me to judge you, well, I don't know, empathising with someone who represents such a selfish nasty ideology puts you in Nelson Mandela territory, I guess. The power of forgiveness and acceptance..who knows maybe she will feel that understanding and go on to do good works throughout the world. Or maybe not.
            Though you must carry a dreadful burden, if you empathise with Theresa May you must be absolutely paralysed with grief for the victims of her policies.

            • Incognito

              Thank for your considered reply. I won’t make any further comments on this given my apparent faux pas with Sabine and I don’t want to inflame the situation any further. FWIW, I could only dream of being anywhere near “Nelson Mandela territory” …

              • Sabine

                i gave you a considered response to your very loaded question ' what would you do if she were in an emergency'

                that question alone in my book was not in good faith. I politely explained the first time around why i have no empathy with a women who looses her job to incompetence. She should have never taken that job in the first place. She was and is an expensive suit full of cruelty, egoism, vanity and incompetence.

                You are questioning my 'empathy and ability to feel for others' you question my 'credo' that i live by and you get a big sad when i tell you to bug off and take my answer for what it is.

                I have no empathy for her, i have no compassion for her. As i stated earlier, i have the empathy and compassion for her that she shows to those of my class. None.

                so please don't use "Sabine was mean' when you simply could not take my first answer as the truth that applies to me, and only tor me.

                Above all do no harm, something that Theresa May has never considered.

                • Incognito

                  Fair enough. I have already apologised to you and I did act in good faith but went about it in a bad way, evidently. As much as I have to respect your feelings you have to allow me to feel sad about your response to me. I commended you on your credo and whether you think I questioned your “empathy and ability to feel for others” is now a moot point; the harm is done. And please don’t put words in my mouth as I never said nor implied that "Sabine was mean”. Maybe best if we leave it at that.

    • bwaghorn 3.4

      They say shes clever but if your clever you let the next falla catch the hospital pass that leadership over there is at the mo.

    • greywarshark 3.5

      Ad or Mod Could you look for a comment I put up re May about half hour ago or more please. It had a wikipedia quote in it that had more linked info than I realised. I think it was in OM but if you can change post, it could go into the Mayhem in the UK post as it has info about her educational and early work background and wikipedia link. I found her intransigence and Sisyphus like approach to the job perplexing. So thought a bit about her would round off the comments.

    • Morrissey 3.6

      Anyone feeling any sympathy for Theresa May?

      Not a bit. If she had any sense of honour, she would have resigned years ago. She was a remorseless liar.

      • Sam 3.6.1

        The U.K. Will find very little love in ASEAN and OCEANIA after they unceremoniously dumped Singapore and the rest of South Asia pre WW2 after being imperial douche novels. And dumping Australia, New Zealand and the rest of the pacific commonwealth to join the EU. They're just juvenile amateurs. We don’t need em.

    • OnceWasTim 3.7

      I did in the early stages, then She just went on and on and on and on – not unlike some days in here. May Her Holier Than Thou stubbornness comfort her. I've got better people to feel sorry for, and there's only so much to go around. I'm probably not a good enough toff anyway that she'd even want my sympathy.

  4. francesca 4

    re the carbon zero bill
    Its pathetic
    Politics is the art of whats possible

    In the current climate heh heh any change is incremental

    Thats why a massive ground swell movement is whats needed to make the politicians aware their electoral base demands change

    Magnify the kids climate strikes by 10, join with them, every last Friday of the month

    keep doing it

    Thats where change comes from…as well as all the changes you make in your own life…actually for your own health and well being primarily.Notching back the consumer goods, having the courage to ignore fashion, living a real life

  5. SPC 5

    Post May forecast.

    1. Brexit with no deal.

    2. a vote of no confidence motion is passed in parliament and new elections are held.

    3a. If Labour and LD and the SNP form a government afterwards they will hold a referendum to get public consent to return to the customs union and single market.

    3b If the Tories win,Trump tells them to hand over Assange and sign the FTA he writes because they have no alternative, they have no leverage.

    4. The UK will become like the Ukraine (each election is a pro EU or Russia referendum) each election would be lacky of the US or part of the EU choice. Hardly the stuff of proud national independence.

    • James 5.1

      “3a. If Labour and LD and the SNP form a government afterwards they will hold a referendum to get public consent to return to the customs union and single market.”

      if you think that you are in idiot. There is no chance of a referendum to rejoin parts.

      And Assanage will be heading the the Us regardless- as he should to stand trial for crimes he has (supposedly) been responsible for. Along with standing trial for rapes.

      • SPC 5.1.1

        Given they wanted a deal with May where the UK stayed in the customs union and single market witha referendum to get public consent – why would they not campaign on that and then deliver it if they won government majority in the Commons?

        Your not wanting their policy, or them to be in govenment to apply it, is not an argument you know …

      • Andre 5.1.2

        Well, there's actually a lot of very good reasons why Assange shouldn't be surrendered to the US. As unpleasant a duty as making that argument actually is, given what a monumental asshole (and alleged rapist) Assange actually is.

        Most important is that the US going after Assange is an attack on the free press. It's an attempt to overturn centuries of precedent protecting the activity of publishing factual information, regardless of how that information got into the publisher's hands. That right to publish really is an important safeguard, and it's no coincidence that it's one of the first thing to be lost on the path to vicious authoritarian and totalitarian dictatorships.

        But that’s certainly not an argument against sending him to Sweden to answer for the rape allegations. Indeed, given that Assange will actually have more opportunity to fight against extradition to the US from Sweden than he does from the UK, that’s even more reason to send him to Sweden.

        • SPC

          An alternative timeline.

          He does not betray those who put up his bail money and serves a short sentence in Sweden (they have degrees of rape levels). He would have been out before Obama left office.

          He still exposes the DNC and Clinton and plays a part in Trump's election. Trump tries to have him extradited from wherever he lived at the time – if he got advance notice he would be in an apartment in Moscow next door to Snowden. If not he would be in custody while the extradition trial was going on.

          As it is he needs to go to Sweden (and serve some time) to improve his chances of not being extradited while Trump is in office. Like the strongman Trump postures as being, he is not really a defender of a free press. He is probably trying to make the extra charges against Assange a point of difference against the MSM in the USA (and their Democrat candidate) for re-election purposes.

          • Andre

            In that alternative timeline, he would have been out and freely moving about for several years with Obama and the DOJ having decided it was not in the US national interest to prosecute him (because of the potential chilling effect on legitimate publishing). Then when Genghis Don comes after him, Assange has a much stronger argument against extradition that it's politically motivated.

            Yet another reason to be pissed off at Assange on a personal basis; that his running and hiding in the embassy has actually opened an opportunity for Hair Fuhrer to mount an attack on the free press that might actually succeed.

        • francesca

          Finally, some common ground

          But Andre, you are more optimistic than I am about Sweden being guided by its own laws versus bowing down to or accepting some quid pro quo deal with the US re extradition

          In the current political climate there seems to be a lot of lip service paid to "the international rules based order", but not a lot of shame attached to flouting it

          eg https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/22/uk-suffers-crushing-defeat-un-vote-chagos-islands

          The UK should have bowed to the decision of the ICJ long before it got to this

          Also this


          It is perfectly possible constitutionally for Sweden to assure Assange of immunity from onward extradition , particularly given the new charges under the espionage act

          Amnesty International has advocated for Assange in this respect, repeatedly


          • francesca

            That was in response to your remarks at 5.1.2

            The following remarks

            dear god!

            To add to the list Assange is now responsible for the the attack on press freedom

            A little like rape victims being blamed for being female

        • RedLogix

          Given the instability of the UK at the moment I'd be superficially inclined to agree that Sweden might be his better bet at the moment.

          When I think back to the billions of pixels expended on this relatively modest matter (the original inquiry to the Swedish police revolved around a simple request for STD testing) … compared to the millions of women who have undergone horrendous oppression and sexual violation in numerous countries since … it's clear that we utterly lost any sense of proportion and significance over this.

          Here is one random link illustrating what I mean:


          What do you imagine these women would think about the Assange affair? Why do they count for so very much less than one very privileged Swedish woman?

          Assange has maintained his innocence from the outset and made his case:


          On the face of it the most desirable way forward for Assange should be to go to Sweden and fight the matter in Court. But this always was a politically motivated prosecution, and therefore the Swedish justice system is corrupted and cannot be trusted. Moreover minds are made up and even if a Swedish Court was to exonerate him, many progressives will obdurately regard him as a vile sexual offender of the worst kind.

          Innocent or guilty, the Americans have achieved their corrupt aim, Assange is now damned for life.

          • francesca

            Thank you Red Logix

            I really appreciate that

            There are degrees of rape , just as there are degrees of assault and verbal violence and libel and fraud and theft and dishonesty

            What Assange is accused of is several degrees beneath violent sexual assault

            I get pretty tired of men here , often with violent phallic based language prosletysing about rape as if they're more feminist than feminists.

            Until they themselves get raped up an orifice they can take my word for it , there's a difference between getting woken up by a lover for further sex, or a torn condom, or no condom, and a violent sexual attack

            In that respect there is such a thing as a non consensual issue over condoms or "lesser rape".

          • SPC

            Under Swedish rape law (degrees of rape – including without a condom if this is required for consent), he would be found guilty. The reason being the women went to police after they compared experiences – corroborating stories would convict. They knew he was guilty of an offence and their first concern was the STD matter. Knowingly infecting them would have been an offence also.

            The politicisation came later. It was a minor rape charge matter and he was not a local, so persistance was the politicisation – for some feminist credentials as a prosecutor for others becoming an agent for pro American political bosses.

            • francesca

              The Swedish record for prosecuting rape is not great, success rates low, tardiness, bungled evidence keeping , general dissatisfaction amongst survivors with the justice system, in other words not a huge will to see justice for rape victims in the legal system

              Leads me to the notion that the Assange case is hugely politically motivated, and the rights of the women complainants have taken very much a back seat.


              • Sam

                Theres the age of consent, giving consent and retracting consent. Did I miss one?

                Its not wrong to ejaculate into the woman's vag with out a condom on once consent has been given. If the passage is able to accept and woman strong enough to carry a baby it's really not a bad thing to do.

                Sex with out consequences is more of a problem than giving birth to some causal acquaintance. That's just not egalitarian. Planning a society should be moving towards a situation of nurturing children under any cicumbstance not recoiling from it.

          • Sam

            TBH I don't much care for the plight of woman beyond that which immigrate to New Zealand. I'd be happy increasing defence and law enforcement funding to deal with a global sex trafficking ring, perhaps if I was 20 years younger I would like to join in on such operations again but kicking in doors Taken stylez is a young mans game.

            Criminal investigstions is quite unsexy do people really want to know what it takes or are people willing to hand wave all the subtle details as need to know, don't be a conspiracy theorist ect. And I'm challenging people's perception of police and defence spending because not always does the rhetoric match the will to fund.

          • McFlock

            So what if worse things happen elsewhere? Those perpetrators should be charged, too.

            But this always was a politically motivated prosecution, and therefore the Swedish justice system is corrupted and cannot be trusted.

            Of course, that falls down if the prosecution merely submits its case to a court. Even if "politically motivated" were true.

            Moreover minds are made up and even if a Swedish Court was to exonerate him, many progressives will obdurately regard him as a vile sexual offender of the worst kind

            lol I don't think anyone's calling him a Jimmy Saville. Nice straw man.

            As for the "innocent or guilty" line, if he's guilty, him committing sexual assault has nothing to do with the yanks. If he's innocent, a trial is the closest he'll get to demonstrating it.

            • RedLogix

              Those perpetrators should be charged, too.

              But they won’t be.

              a trial is the closest he'll get to demonstrating it.

              Everyone knows the entire charade is politically motivated. By now I simply don't trust either the Brits, Yanks or Swedes to do anything other than fuck him over.

              Or all three take turn about at gangbanging him into oblivion for speaking truth to power.

              • marty mars

                "Or all three take turn about at gangbanging him into oblivion for speaking truth to power."

                please watch your language – those who have actually suffered abuse and sexual violence may well be triggered by your 'bishoptamaki-like' remarks.

                • One Two

                  please watch your language – those who have actually suffered abuse and sexual violence may well be triggered by your 'bishoptamaki-like' remarks.

                  Were you triggered by that comment ?

                • francesca

                  I find Red Logixs analogy to be totally apt, and I am not triggered by it

                  Assange is being raped, thoroughly and absolutely and with impunity by the many who need him to be destroyed

                  • marty mars

                    "Assange is being raped, thoroughly and absolutely and with impunity by the many who need him to be destroyed"

                    what a load of fucken bullshit.

                    • McFlock


                    • One Two

                      what a load of fucken bullshit.

                      In response to a woman, who also stated she was not triggered by RL's comment …

                      Who else are you pretending to represent?

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      Maybe not raped, but certainly f**ked over – right-wing politicians, and management of the MIC and intelligence agencies, are drooling in anticipation of revenge for being embarrassed by WikiLeaks.

                      Opinion: Julian Assange Did A Lot Of Bad Things. Publishing Leaks Isn’t One Of Them.

                      What the WikiLeaks founder did to receive secret military and diplomatic documents — the crime of which he is now accused — is what a free press does every day.


                    • Morrissey

                      You think Assange is being legally and fairly treated by the U.K. regime, do you, Marty?

                    • marty mars

                      "Maybe not raped…"

                      ummm yeah maybe nothing at all like raped eh unless you think rape is like when you drool.

                    • Sam

                      Marty… What does rape mean. Can you define it for us because your definitions are not what the EU would call rape… So enlighten me real quick so I can access whether it's useful.

                    • marty mars

                      sam – I think you are a low rider and I don't bother with your types.

                    • McFlock

                      if any commenter genuinely doesn't know what "rape" means, leave the conversation.

                    • One Two []

                      Or else what?

                      You'll start up screaming rape enabler …

                      Marty can't wait to scream racism …

                      You're the guys who cry wolf…

                    • Incognito []

                      How is this helping except for starting a flame war?

                      BTW, that is a rhetorical question. So, do not answer it but please take the hint.

                    • Sam

                      Even by Swedish standards rape has to involve a threat of violence or coercion, or unconsciousness, sleep, intoxication or influence by drugs, illness, bodily injury or mental impairment. From what either you, Marty or McFlock (sniggers) have you heard that Assange committed either of those offences in the course of intercourse.

                    • McFlock

                      Sex without consent. None of the above necessary.
                      I refer you to my previous comment.

                    • marty mars

                      One Two – you are not contributing to the discussion apart from meaningless abuse – just butt out if you can't discuss respectfully eh.

                    • One Two []

                      what a load of fucken bullshit.

                      That's your comment to Francesca…

                      Did you forget already?

                    • McFlock


                      Or else you'll be taking part in a conversation you cannot possibly understand, and will probably end up just once again recycling tropes used by men to get away with (or enable others to get away with) women since time immemorial.

                      And yes, if someone is making an effort to enable men to rape without accountability, I'll call them a "rape enabler" or some variation on that theme.

                      But that's a risk one takes if one insistsa on discussing rape without knowing what the term means.

                    • One Two []

                      Nah, you just like using insults…IMO…

                      Your definition of rape is sufficiently warped to be so narrow , no wonder you have no idea what you're talking about…

                      RL' s analogy , is appropriate.

                    • Incognito []

                      Assange may or may stand trial in Sweden for rape allegations according to Swedish Law. He’s innocent until proven guilty of rape according to Swedish Law. No other ‘definitions’ of rape need to be evoked. Please stick to the facts, everything else is assumption or wild speculation and an exercise in futility that only seems to raise tempers here.

                      [This comment is directed to all of you]

                    • One Two []

                      Any particular reason you put that reply on my comment and not on the original by RL?

                      You've done that more than once now and on separate occasions, different subjects…when I was responding to McFlock…

                      Are you providing cover for McFlock and/or others here?

                      Or is it personal for you, from an exchange you and I have had previously?

                      Both, are questions…not accusations…and not rhetorical…you're welcome to reply…or not.

                    • Incognito []

                      No particular reason and it was not personal, which is why I left a bolded note as well.

                      I think there are a number of commenters, including you, who are skating on thin ice. Anything Assange is controversial and people tend to be divided (polarised). Rape is a very sensitive topic and should not be used for ‘scoring points’ in any debate, not even about Assange, or most definitely not about Assange. His journalistic efforts have absolutely nothing to do with his bedroom escapades.

                      I think RedLogix’s choice of words @ was very poor but tried to make a point, badly IMO. Nevertheless, it didn’t need to descend into a war of words between a bunch of commenters who appear to have an axe to grind, mainly with each other. In the pursuit of the truth, you have to stay focussed on facts and not be distracted by loud voices.

                      Anyway, it is up to you and others to take heed or not.

                    • One Two []

                      Given that I stay away from passing an opinion on the so called assange situation…regarding the allegations…

                      You must be referring to something or someone else…

                      I've involved myself in exchanges specifically when others (who don't get moderated)…become abusive in ways which are are absolutely intended to be hurtful…and I call it out..

                      Perhaps you can provide examples of why you believe I'm on thin ice..

                      You called it..back it up so I can get context of your opinion…because given what I read on this site…the insults, the abuse and regular tirades…almost exclusively unmoderated …

                      And your comments regarding self moderation …which is really a cop out ..and appears to be empowering a few regulars here to continue with rampant abuse…including against women here…go un moderated for the most part…

                      Even when their behaviour is called out…nothing seems to change…

                      Yeah I get it…the system admin like to flex ..when I pointed out some of the insults the response was…

                      stop attempting to playthe victim…or ill make you one…(para..almost verbatim)…

                      This site empowers misogynists from the top…despite numerous past female and male commentators and authors leaving because of it..

                      Despite the meagre few female commentators calling it out from their perspective when under repeated attack by the sites angry little men…

                      Still nothing is done…

                      When a long time commentator, and former moderator uses a phrase ..which IMO…could to read as a direct challenge to poor state of this sites contributers…

                      Still nothing is done…

                      Your recent article about online speech and anger being essentially unavoidable…

                      Yet you (flying almost solo it seems) have moderator rights now…which you appear to not understand how to use…but the misuse and non use of them … is actually fanning the flames by endorsing the angry misogynists and abusive men on this site…top down.

                      Either moderate…or don't at all…sitting on the fence you should hand back mod rights..IMO…you don't need them…

                      So yeah…thin ice..examples.

                    • Incognito []

                      It shows good manners if you ask nicely and say please. Good manners show respect. There is a distinct lack of either in your comment.

                      Nevertheless …

                      Your comment @ 25 May 2019 at 10:04 pm had nothing to do with any of the Assange allegations and was an overtly aggressive attempt to start a flame war, especially with two other commenters with whom you have ‘sparred’ before.

                      That’s thin ice and I was perhaps too lenient by giving you and others a chance to self-moderate. It seems that giving the benefit of doubt is not always the right thing to do.

                      You would have been on much safer ice when commenting on Assange instead of on other commenters.

                      You talk about calling out others but fail to acknowledge your own behaviour and the impact it has.

                      I understand that you don’t agree with the moderation or lack thereof on this site. I understand that you don’t think much of my moderation here either. Your criticism, however, lacks any constructive aspects except telling me (and other Moderators) what to do and what not.

                      That’s very thin ice, again.

                      Finally, I refer you to my comment (made today) to mauī @ 26 May 2019 at 10:36 am.

                      This thread about (my) moderation is now closed. I have given you the courtesy of engaging with you, but Moderation here is not up for litigation.

                    • One Two []

                      it shows good manners if you ask nicely and say please…

                      I'm addressing you as a commentator…

                      What sort of misplaced and inflated opinion must you have to make that statement…rhetorical.

                      Your perceived sense of self importance…where others should say please to satisfy that self perception… has lead you into a poor space, incognito…a deluded and transparent space at that…

                      Please and thank-you are words which can't be overused…

                      But your inference I should have said please…is to misappropriate use of the word against your own incorrect self perception of how you show respect…

                      You've misinterpreted and made incorrect assumptions…

                      …it happened because you reckon I should have said please to you…you reckon that pious statement …what…somehow gave you a high ground…

                      Actually, it completely undermines the sentiment of faux respect which you're toting around…

                      See if you can grasp that concept…

                      This comment is to you the commentator…as well as the personality which sits behind the online words…

                    • Incognito []

                      That is an interesting analysis of me, which I will take on board, thank you.

                      There is no point demanding respect and politeness from someone who clearly does not want to give it, and I wasn’t; I made an observation about the fact that asking nicely goes a long way and that you hadn’t asked nicely, at all.

                      To be very clear, and I have said this to you before, I don’t need your respect but you need to adhere to this site’s rules and policy.

                    • One Two []

                      It was an observation. wink

                      and that you hadn't asked nicely, at all..

                      Ok, you're not getting it , at all…

                      It was the very first sentence, and you were clearly seeking to empart your self perception of respect onto another…

                      Or why bother writing it…eh.

                      There was no disrespect in my comment…it was neutral…so you reached… for please…


                      despite protestations that you don't need respect…

                      …that statements appears to be in direct conflict with your observation … I would say…

                      If you don't need respect..no need to observe that you didn't receive any…is there..

                      Your final sentence is written from a moderators perspective apparently…

                      I am…once again responding to you…as a commentator…

                    • Incognito []

                      Please hire a digger.

                      You have criticised me as commenter, author, moderator, and as a person. In addition, you have criticised the moderation on this site. It is starting to become rather boring. It is also a very nice distraction from you skating on thin ice in your other comments, which you have completely ignored. Not even a thank you from you for my considered and polite explanations and taking the time to engage with you. How disappointing, indeed.

                      You seem to think that by repeatedly and explicitly stating that you address me “as a commentator” you avoid criticising me as a Moderator. I’m sure that you’re not that naive and I find it laughable that you think you can get away with it. You have tried this trick with me several times before, so I’m calling a stop to it.

                      [Enough about me!]

                    • One Two []

                      I'm not laughing…yet.

                      Are you simultaneously a moderator and commentator ?

                      ..because it sounds like that is the position you're painting yourself into…at least towards my comments…

                      Have I interpreted your sentiment correctly there?

                      It is no trick Incognito, and it should be blatant enough that a demarcation needs to exist between those who are also mods…

                      …if you're going to assume both roles at the same time …all the time..that would be farcical…

                      not even a thank you from you for my considered and polite explanations…

                      blah…how disappointing…

                      Oh you're taking the piss…that's how ill assume it to be taken…

                      Otherwise you're being serious in using such commentary…

                      Which I would then find, laughable…but unsurprising…

                      If my comments go over your head…you’re welcome to ask questions…

                      [Take some time off to carefully study this thread, in particular from where you attempted to start a flame war and my comments @ 10:13 PM, 11:23 PM, 11:42 PM, 12:41 PM, and 1:29 PM, in that order. You may find that all those comments of mine were in fact gentle moderation. However, on the one hand, you call for (more) moderation, yet on the other hand, you argue and detract from your own slip-ups and wilfully ignore explanations and warnings from a Moderator who also happens to be a commenter in other threads. In other words, you don’t care for moderation and blatantly disrespect the rules and policy of this site. You are welcome to re-join the fray after the teachers’ strike – Incognito]

                    • Incognito []

                      See my Moderation note @ 4:02 PM.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      "unless you think rape is like when you drool" – MM @9:25 pm

                      Wide of the mark, and unnecessarily personal IMHO.
                      I'll steer clear of delving into your thought processes, and reiterate:

                      Julian Assange Did A Lot Of Bad Things.
                      Publishing Leaks Isn’t One Of Them.

                    • Sam

                      It is my belief that there is a couple things you, Marty and McFlock are not being truthful and forthcoming about. So,

                      …, When was it that Assange was alleged to have committed the crimes you accuse him of,

                      …, and when did the sexual consent laws you seek to cover him in come into force in the Swedish jurisdiction?

                    • marty mars

                      You said it drowsy – if you have changed your mind then good but no one forced you to write your comment did they. I just highlighted why it was a poorly thought out response from you that's all.
                      You’ll notice I said “unless” – this is a self selection device – if it doesn’t relate to what you think then it isn’t relevant to you. I think I’ve treated you with respect actually considering what you wrote – don’t worry I’ll consider if I change that approach for next time.

                    • The Al1en

                      “That’s your comment to Francesca…
                      Did you forget already?”

                      White knights to the rescue 🙄

                    • Sam

                      So what I'm looking to do is assess both yours Marty, and Mc Flock (gets me in the feels every time) so I'm looking to assess your credibility by establishing a simple time between the the time Julian committed the offence he is accused of to the time you say the consent laws came into effect in order to check if there is any ideological connotations in either of your arguments.

                      Take your time. I'll pour myself a big fat drink and wait for you to google the answer and report back.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      Marty (@10:26 pm), I wrote – "Maybe not raped, but certainly f**ked over"

                      Apologies if it wasn’t clear that I was agreeing with you, i.e. I think that it is incorrect and unhelpful to use the word ‘rape’ to describe the treatment of Assange by the ‘authorities’.

                      I’m not brave enough to describe it as “what a load of fucken bullshit”.

                    • marty mars

                      @ drowsy – sorry for getting it wrong. I was a bit surprised by your response as it seemed out of kilter – but alas it was me that was off. Apologies again.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      Thanks Marty, all good – could/should have made it clearer by dropping 'Maybe' from the start of that sentence.

                    • The Al1en

                      Seriously, 12, grab a tissue and dry your eyes.

                      It's quite clear what game you and playing here, though when you play the victim, it's wise to have all your ducks in a row if you want a half decent shot at credibility. All you're getting at present is half arsed.

                      Just like you've used the death of innocent children to attack members on here, now you're using the smear of misogyny to attack those who have previously bested you in debate. I don't buy it as genuine concern for a minute.

                      If you were really concerned about the 'fucken bullshit' language used to rubbish a rubbish argument, why did you not post your new found, heartfelt distaste for the comments at 2.1 and above?

                • greywarshark

                  I'm amazed that civilised RL could come out with that. I said the other day that mention of sex seems to wind up many like clockwork toys and press the button marked sex and Off They Go jumping up and down from soapboxes – keeping it clean you see.

                  • francesca

                    Red Logix has to be one of the most patient ,considered , and thoughtful commenters on this site.I don't always agree with him, but he's always respectful in reply, and I've modified some of my views because of that

                    So when he uses language like that it I take him seriously

                    Many other commenters are on a hair trigger and quickly descend to foul abuse, for them its like some sort of boxing match

                    • francesca

                      or rather cage fight

                    • greywarshark

                      But you have been triggered by it francesca.

                      1 You have written in.

                      2 You have defended an extravagant sexual comment from RL.

                      3 You have put aside your standards of behaviour to support someone else and are taking 'sides' instead of judging matters dispassionately for yourself.

                      Just saying.

              • aj

                It's got nothing whatsoever to do with justice. The USA (and UK) have to be dragged kicking and screaming to even think about prosecuting war crimes committed by their own armed forces. The My Lai massacre in Vietnam is a good starting point to learn.

                "Australian documentary-maker and occasional independent journalist, James Ricketson, was convicted of espionage in Cambodia and sentenced to 6 years in prison, for allegedly using his film-making as a pretext to collect information that would harm national security. He served 15 months before receiving a King's pardon and being deported back to Australia."

                In a recent Guardian article, "Ricketson said he was concerned that Assange’s “polarising” position among journalists as well as the public at large would mean he is “forgotten”.

                “A lot of well-informed people I know hate Julian Assange for reasons of character, and what I think is that I have no idea about his character and nor do I think it is important,” he said.

                If you went through the upper echelons of society in business and politics and journalism you’d find a lot of arseholes and narcissists but I don’t think that should matter. We are all members of the fourth estate and I think it’s an attack on everybody in the fourth estate to prosecute Julian as is happening.

                “My feeling is that unless there’s a huge concerted effort, a public outcry, that Julian Assange will spend 10 months in jail and then be extradited it’ll be one of those news items that will pop up every now and again but that Julian will be forgotten, and I don’t think he should be forgotten.”

                (My bold)


              • McFlock

                they're not in Sweden though.

    • Ad 5.2

      1. Boris Johnson becomes Prime Minister in June, and government continues until 2022.

      2. Brexit with No Deal goes ahead. Immediate trade, pharmaceutical, and grocery supply crisis with trucks at both borders for miles. Brexit together with US-China trade war tips the OECD countries into economic stagnation.

      3. Prime Minister Johnson announces massive and deep deregulation of the British economy to outcompete the EU. Economic growth crashes and unemployment goes from 4% to 7% inside a year.

      4. Scotland votes to join the EU independently.

      5. Wales protests mount, also seeking a referendum to join the EU.

      6. Decline in the City of London as a financial centre compared to Frankfurt, Berlin, and Paris.

      7. Queen dies by 2022. No one knows what happened to the country.

      8. By 2022, India overtakes UK in economic size.

      • Sam 5.2.1

        9. The UK vagabond tells stories to his other UK vagabond friends about how much money they used to make before BREXIT 😂😂😂

      • greywarshark 5.2.2

        Macabre thought. Queen goes onto Lazarus-type support to give breathing time for damaged UK to gather itself together and decide to become monarchy again, as the Barons have gutted the country.


  6. greywarshark 6

    Noelle McCarthy on for Kim this morning. I hate her inflected speech, almost theatrical. She is on RadioNZ more and more and though she has slightly improved over the years, I still want to hear NZs and just because Kim was an immigrant, it doesn't mean that she should be followed by another.

    And Mora, does anyone else feel that Sunday mornings are getting more into celebrities and light stuff that would interest and amuse those who have everything. Wallace was both grounded and reaching for ideas, Mora doesn't measure up.

  7. Observer Tokoroa 7

    The Trump Trip

    It fascinates me that a war mongering, liar, narcissist, child abusing leader of a Nation should be invited to the Uk.

    Trump, he who separates little children from their parents, never to be found again, will be fondled by the Aristocracy of England. An Aristocracy that since the year 1100 AD has built up a dreadfully shameful and massive taste for slavery and poverty within the UK.

    A Taste it maintains until today, by denying equality, opportunity and a secure future to all the Citizens of the United Kingdom.

    Mrs Teresa May thought she had only one thing to do as an English Prime Minister. She had only to continue the weird Ways of Elizabeth 1, and the weird ways of Margaret Thatcher and the weird ways of the Lords and everything would be her Triumph.

    The Prize she would get and clutch – was the opportunity to fondle Donald Ridiculous Trump. She couldn’t 't wait.

    Neither Mrs May or Mr Trump have ever done anything for their workers or the poor or the Ill. They have done only for the few. Never for the Many.

    They never wanted to. The two of them make you utterly Sick !

  8. Cinny 8

    Thanks ever so much for publishing this particular bullying story Stuff and leaving it open for comments. This shit is way too common, and any input helps those who are struggling with this kind of shite so very much.


    At the bullying meeting last week the principal told me that bullying had been an issue in every school he had worked at…. made me wonder if he was part of the problem. Spinning the zero bullying tolerance is just lip service to keep parents quiet.

    • Rosemary McDonald 8.1

      Cinny. Barely a day goes by without me expressing relief that my children's schooldays are well and truly over. The bullying thing was bad enough in the days before 24/7 social media exposure, so much worse nowadays when the bullies follow you home.

      Reading those comments below the Stuff article I am inclined to agree with those suggesting face to face contact with the parents/caregivers of the bullies. AND record/film these discussions. From experience it may turn out that the parents of the bullies are at their wits' end and their offspring are terrorising their own family as well. They may be desperate for help with dealing with their child's bullying behaviour, and being confronted by their child's victim's parents might just be the catalyst to effect change.

      The effects of being bullied at school can be long lasting and can lead to the bullied becoming the bully later on. And so the cycle continues. No wonder our youth suicide and self harm rates are so high.

      Back in the day we were told….'sticks and stones…' and to just walk away from confrontation, and these strategies do have a place and can be effective. But there are some perpetrators that simply can't pass up the opportunity to have a go at an individual they feel is weak or on the margins already. When I read that bullied kids are still being advised to leave the school my heart just about breaks. Same shit. Different day. Nothing changes.

      With your daughter Cinny….it is down to you and the rest of the whanau to always be there for her so that whatever else in going on in her life (and I do understand that school and her mates are more important than anything else at times) she knows where she really lives and where she is safe.

      This too shall pass. All the very best.

    • Anne 8.2

      Thanks for the link Cinny.

      It is appalling almost beyond comprehension. In a roundabout way the principle is telling the victim she has to take some of the blame. What for? Existing? And to send her home for 5 days (ostensibly for her safety) and not do likewise to the perpetrators only shows they don't have a clue how to handle the problem.

      As you know I went through an adult version of this dilemma and it went on, on and off, for years. The authorities did the same thing to me and I was left feeling like I was the one who was to blame for my predicament.

      It's time all teachers – and principles in particular – attend classes/seminars and are properly trained in handling bullying and other similar behaviours within the school precincts and nearby surroundings.

    • greywarshark 8.3

      This is an example of today's principal under BoTs. These often are people who lead well ordered lives in which they are able to organise everything to their own satisfaction.

      Principals under the control of BoTs and who have been chosen by them? I think that's the case, are their pawns and must think about what the Board thinks first and foremost. (I noted that the Principal at the school you are dealing with Cinny wanted to ensure that further communication was directly to him.)

      In this era of tick-boxing and targets, there isn't too much room for latitude and working with problems. Having a clean desk and arena is what is noticed. Brush things to the side – it's SEP is a very strong inclination. Too much caring and experimenting is likely to backfire on the Principal.

      Note the attempts of one school to use a locked quiet room to place a belligerent or very stressed child with mental difficulties until they were manageable, and to allow those affected to get on with their expected teaching and learning. It was thumbs down for the school and the Principal.

      How can people carry out their required work in these circumstances? I have heard that techniques for handling bullying have been available for some time and why BoTs can't be instructed to learn about them and apply them as best practice , along with Principals and Teachers, I can't imagine.

      But I believe that this is down to the NZ government dropping the right to ensure that matters are properly handled in an informed and sensible and reasonable fashion under Tomorrow's Schools? and local decision-making. That has left the country's children to the reckons of elected people who have projected self-confidence, status and correctness to other parents, which is of limited value to estimating their knowledge, skills relating to education and biases.

    • Puckish Rogue 8.4

      "Spinning the zero bullying tolerance is just lip service to keep parents quiet."

      I'll bet that's part of it plus I wouldn't mind betting that if the victim retaliates then they'd get in as much trouble, if not more, as the bully

      • Rosemary McDonald 8.4.1

        if the victim retaliates then they'd get in as much trouble, if not more, as the bully

        Hmm…was a time, in an all boys school, when the victim fighting back and beating the living daylights out of the perpetrator was cause for congratulations and celebrations. One of the comments on the article Cinny posted says as much.

        Shakes head in despair.

        • Puckish Rogue

          Sounds like in this environment those that want to follow the rules are punished more than those that don't, I feel bad for the kids in this situation

          • Rosemary McDonald

            When I heard, I was horrified, and fully expected the victim who finally snapped to be in a wealth of trouble. By all accounts, (and the school was warned a meltdown was imminent due to constant harassment from the bully) it required more than two adults to part the pair. The family of the victim who finally snapped were not even informed of the massive fight and when they did speak with the DP were congratulated on having a son who was so physically strong. They (the school teachers) had no idea, as this kid was a nerdy academic who eschewed physical sports. The teachers assumed he was a weak wimp….just like the bully did.

            All very Lord of the Flies….do they still read that?

      • Anne 8.4.2

        I wouldn't mind betting that if the victim retaliates then they'd get in as much trouble, if not more, as the bully.

        You're dead right there PR.

    • Sabine 8.5

      Maybe have a chat with the Principal and talk to him about 'sexual harassment' rathen then bullying.

      Calling a girl a 'effn 4 letterword' because she does not want to date is sexual harassment text book. Yes, it falls under bullying, but maybe that is a bit more poignant.

      But yes, of course, let the harassers go to school and tell the victim to stay home and forgo education, its the easier and cheaper thing to do.

      And maybe tell the Principal if bullying is an issue at every school he worked then maybe rather then being a solution to the problem he is part of the problem?

      • Cinny 8.5.1

        Cheers for the comments, input is very much appreciated.

        At the meeting when I mentioned it was sexual harrassment, he said that the term 'fckn slut' was common and part of the online gaming culture, just the way of the world apparently.

        What's even more messed up, did some online research last night and apparently if a girl rejects a boys sexual advances it's part of the bro code to call her a fkn slut. Far out, that broke my heart that some think like that, but it explains why things are like that are for her.

        Last night Sab, Miss 14 got a message from another boy at school via social media, who was telling her she must want to fck this guy and that guy, she was real upset. Showed me on her computer, asked her if she wanted me to reply, which she did, so I gave him a taste of how it feels, then we blocked him. Probably shouldn't have, but am so over it.

        Last time I trolled a boy who was harrassing her online, he left her alone at school and continues to do so, that was months ago. It's immature of me go down the small dick, stop wanking and get a life road, but it worked, and that's just as messed up.

        Sheez I'm so glad she's honest with me and relieved I've never gotten her a cellphone.

        Just cause a girl is pretty dosen't mean she is a free for all that wants to have sex with everything.

        Thanks media etc for portraying pretty females as easy for the men, well done for ruining lives with that narrative.

        Going to the police this week, I'm over it. I'd like the police to come to assembly and give them all a shake up about the consequences of such behaviour. Fingers crossed can make it happen.

        Woooooooah time for a cuppa lolz and a calm down moment, am a bit meows.

    • Molly 8.6

      Cinny, I've tried googling but can't find it. An international study on bullying was in the media a few years ago, that singled out the approach that New Zealand takes towards bullying behaviour in schools. Perhaps someone else will be able to help out.

      Not only was NZ one of the highest countries in terms of prevalence, the approach used was considered to be less effective than others. Despite the myriad of bullying programmes in New Zealand, the practical implementation occurring within schools was to impress on the victim their need to acquire "resilience". The harm that was inflicted on victims, was considered almost to be learning opportunities to discover how to overcome obstacles. I don't know if this is the impression you will get from your daughter's school when resolving this situation, but at least you are able to act as advocate for her, and can ensure that any resolution will not place this additional burden on her.

      I am a supporter of programmes that address the bad decision making of immature minds at school, and attempt to make those decision makers see how they harm themselves as well as their targets when they act upon their impulses. But they must also ensure, that the targets of these bad decisions are not utilised primarily as teaching opportunities for bullies, and are supported and protected as they should be when in compulsory attendance at school.

      All the best to you and your daughter in this situation.

  9. A 10

    Speaking of votes…how would you feel if the area you lived (eg. State) voided the vote you cast in favor of whomever the most popular candidate was? Weird stuff from the land of the free.


    • Andre 10.1

      That particular effort is prompted by the way the Electoral College has twice recently gone against the overall national will of the people and delivered the US the two worst presidents in recent history. So it's a matter of the residents of those states choosing to respect the national result over their own local result.

      The potentially much worse possibility is the way state legislatures could simply ignore their state's voters and choose whatever electors they want. There's a bunch of states where the Repugs have gerrymandered themselves a solid majority in their state legislatures, even though the state as a whole and the governor is a Democrat. It's a real possibility that the Repug legislatures in those states could overturn the national popular vote, their state's votes and the Electoral College to steal the election and give Dolt45 a second term.


      • Macro 10.1.1

        Yeah I'm buggered if I can understand how America can call itself a democracy with such an abysmal electoral system. Pelosi is absolutely correct – there has to be an overwhelming victory by the next Democrat Candidate for there to be any overturn of this Repugnant spineless lot.

  10. Bearded Git 11

    Australian Election

    Labour plus Greens 43.5% 68 seats

    Coalition 41.8% 78 seats

    Thank goodness for MMP in NZ

    • Anne 11.1

      So Labs plus Greens won 1.8% more in actual votes. In a country with a population around 20 million plus that is quite a sizable amount. It means the polls were in fact not that far out after all.

      So much for the media characterised landslide. 10 seats represents a comfortable majority but not a landslide. Damm those b****y Queensland neanderthals. 🙂

      • greywarshark 11.1.1

        Keepers who go into tigers cages get killed, even though they have been looking after them for years. Tigers don't change their spots, and leopards their stripes! Labour should know by now that Queenslanders have their own idiotsyncracies.

      • bewildered 11.1.2

        Ann this comment from John of Qld may help your understanding

        We have been repeatedly informed by Labor that one of the main reasons for the party’s loss was that its policy message was “too complex”. This barb was mostly directed at Queensland, where Labor suffered monumental losses […]

        As a proud Queenslander let me be crystal clear: Labor’s policies weren’t complex, they were just dumb as a box of rocks. The genius trio of Shorten, Bowen and Plibersek cooked up a toxic brew of Greens insanity, topped by taxation madness and then sprinkled it with a dusting of identity and envy politics, served by a dislikable opportunist. Thankfully, sanity prevailed – “John”, QLD. end

    • SPC 11.2

      They use preferential voting so the candidate who gets 50% of the vote wins the seat.

      While Labour plus Greens is more than the Coalition there are other right wing parties, who make the Coalition their second pick.

    • swordfish 11.3

      Yeah … but … Two Party Preferred:

      ALP ………………………………. 48.4%

      Coalition ………………………. 51.6%

      Not to mention ……. First Preference:

      ALP+Greens …………………………… 43.5%

      Coalition+Other Right Parties … 48.7%

  11. joe90 12

    Pardoned war criminals would be loyal members of a Prince led Praetorian Guard.

    An attorney for Navy SEAL chief Edward "Eddie" Gallagher also represents the Trump Organization, CNN has learned, just days after reports surfaced indicating the President is considering pardoning Gallagher of charges that could constitute war crimes.

    Gallagher faces a slew of accusations connected to violations of military law while he was deployed to the Iraqi city of Mosul in 2017, including premeditated murder in the stabbing death of an injured person in Iraq. He has pleaded not guilty.

    Trump Organization lawyer Marc Mukasey started working on the case in recent months, according to sources familiar with the situation.

    Former NYPD Commissioner Bernard Kerik, a former business partner of Trump ally and former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, also is helping with Gallagher's case. Kerik, who once served three years in federal prison for charges including tax fraud and lying to officials, was nominated as homeland security secretary by President George W. Bush but withdrew from consideration due to potential tax violations.


  12. joe90 13

    Gotta pay back those Saudi loans.

  13. Morrissey 14

    Lisa Owen talking like David Seymour or Christine Spankin' Rankin. Why?

    Checkpoint, RNZ National, 5 p.m., Friday 24 May 2019

    Before the news is read, host Lisa Owen gives a quick menu for the upcoming show. She finishes with this:

    "….and who's the LOW-LIFE who stole a bunch of BONSAI trees nurtured over a period of forty years by their NINETY-THREE year old owner?"

    This is coarse, cheap, and sensationalist rhetoric, the sort of garbage you'd expect to hear spewing from Larry "Lackwit" Williams over on NewsnoreZzzzzzB.

    RNZ National continues to decline.



    • greywarshark 14.1

      I notice you put capitals on certain words that apparently had emphasis put on them. I have noticed that there is a jerky, and often shrill, outrage-seeking, dramatised presentation by Lisa Owen. And fast, slightly breathless, can't wait to tell you the next gossip approach from her. It grates, I expect mature delivery with emphasis put appropriately, not the sort of thing as if from a newbie from a journalism course. And saying mature doesn't mean slow and steady, it means measured and audible, pleasant and listenable, and not dropping the voice to inaudible when giving someone's name or designation, but not shouting either.

      I have thought FTTT about having street criers in special colourful outfits, (not bikinis or mankinis) during tourist times, who might call out the latest headlines and coming events in an audible way and that's when Lisa Owen's delivery would be good. They would also be good for street directions, local info, and perhaps a daily limerick to catch the funny bone. Idea? 💡

  14. mosa 15

    Botswana allowing the hunting of elephants.

    We are intent on killing every last living thing on

    Elephants themselves appear to know this. Facing excessive poaching and hunting elsewhere in Africa, they have limited their roaming in recent years to Botswana. As Elephants without Borders’ Dr Mike Chase said in 2016:


  15. Morrissey 16

    What the F*&#IN' HELL is their country doing near our military bases?

    Nice illustration of the problem starts at the 1:10 mark…

  16. gsays 18

    Having a tough time of it here.

    The local ED has had a few assaults recently on medical and clinical staff. One I have intimate knowledge of.

    A client had used a knife on themselves in a toilet cubicle and the police were called after restraining and cuffing him the police decided to uncuff him against the wishes of mental health crisis team and medical staff. The police intimated that hospital security could take it from here.

    When the police left he then assaulted a few members of staff and was threatening people.

    The police were called again it took 27 minutes for them to arrive when asked about releasing the client the police replied 'well you have your processes we have ours.'

    A senior nurse was offered stress leave. Leave she felt she couldn't take because of the very low staffing levels and a very junior skill mix.

    A couple of observations, the security at our hospitals are not up to keeping up with the demands that are created by the public. The police attitude has shifted since events in ChCh.

    These assaults are not making it into the public awareness.

    I understand there is a law proposed to make it an offence to assault ambulance personnel. Excellent, and extend it to hospital staff too.

    Anecdotally, tempers would be frayed because of wait times. This seems to be managed better now, a lot of the tensions come from folk with mental health issues in crisis e.g. shelter issues, meds etc.

    • McFlock 18.1

      That's a tough job. I know of at least a couple of ED staff who take self defense training to keep themselves safe from patients and patient visitors.

      In general in security I encountered definite A and B team streaming – some were highly professional and would move into situations, others were just statues who would radio for support if you were lucky – otherwise their best bet at stopping a fight in front of them would be to have a heart attack and collapse on top of one of the fighting parties. Not always a distinction based on pay scale, but often was.

      • gsays 18.1.1

        Cheers McF.

        The $ seems to discern what does or doesn't happen. The DHB sub contracts to a security company therefore paying the profit for that company's services. So perverse.

        Perhaps there is scope for well trained orderlies to perform the security role.

        You are so right about A and B stream folk.

        The day after ChCh, the security guard on duty had to be reminded that as the hospital was on high alert, the person with a CROSSBOW in the waiting room had to be asked to leave.

        The local DHB has told staff to be ready for belt tightening, as budgets…..

        What about the DHB telling the ministry there is not enough money in the coffers, increase yr budget.

    • Puckish Rogue 18.2

      I'm assuming its part of this bill and its about time:


      The Protection of First Responders and Prison Officers Bill, currently before Parliament, seeks to impose a mandatory minimum prison sentence of six months for anyone who deliberately injures a first responder or a corrections officer.

      “A provision will be added which will ensure that if a corrections officer is assaulted, extra time will be added onto the inmate’s original sentence, rather than being served concurrently” Mr Ball says.

      • gsays 18.2.1

        I assume you are not against the principle of the bill extending to health care workers?

        I have to ask (not you, PM) where is the union in all this?

        • Puckish Rogue

          “I assume you are not against the principle of the bill extending to health care workers?”

          Personally I’d like to see this extended to everyone but yes health care workers absolutely

    • greywarshark 18.3

      The police should know that hospital staff aren't just people, they are superhumans, but also vulnerable ones as a result. They should be hanging around and making sure that the hospital is coping not buggering off and leaving them to it.

      And as for hospitals having security systems, and police having their separate system that is a cop-out. Hospital systems are so that police aren't always being called out, to relieve them of much of the trivial stuff. Hospitals shouldn't be treated like private/business venues; and even private hospitals should be places that can ask for police attention to help people who are citizens.

      The bloody government is not making sure that so called public services are doing their job. They are trying to get the public or some other people to do what the public are expecting to be provided.

      This sort of thing makes me wild. Another instance is the poor firefighters are being asked to do ambulance stuff when they volunteer their time, and their employers also, and their health and families are put on the line, because government is so devious and is degrading our country because it wants to suck up and not tax properly the very community that demands the highest service.

    • Sabine 18.4

      Friend of mine is a St. John medic. Her comments, assault is a regular thing. Sexual assault is not uncommon.

  17. Incognito 19

    "It's not his big life goal. He [her 12-year old son] wants to be an orthopedic surgeon, so I'm perfectly fine with a little YouTubing on the side."


  18. Muttonbird 20

    This was in reply to a comment greywarshark just posted but has disappeared:

    +1. Sam appears to have massive personal issues but it's not the job of the commenters here to counsel him.

    His diatribes make the place look ugly to genuine newcomers and I suspect he's doing this forum a lot of damage.

    He needs some boundaries.

    • Incognito 20.1

      Sam is not the only one who needs boundaries.

      This site works based on robust debate and self-moderation. This means that all who participate here take a good look at their own contributions and their impact and self-regulate and, when necessary, self-moderate.

      • greywarshark 20.1.1

        Sounds like consensus, that's a nice word to throw around but it has fishhooks. We need leadership, some authority in the background. Or doesn't it matter who comes here and says diddlysquat and it takes precious time from our own affairs to try and sort it out.

        I can see from the fewer number of careful commenters that some are tired of the blog. I don't see it as a playground. Do you? If you do I might seem like a bully. But I want to keep it so we can talk about how we can get out of a mess of decades high, not just squawk about things we don't like, cos we have developed a highly complex language.

        And a highly complex world and I wish it was as simple as birds have, but no. But we can lose it all, unless we really try. Do people care?

        • Incognito

          Hi Grey, it is my personal view and has nothing to do with consensus as such.

          The “authority in the background” are the trustees and SYSOP of TS.

          The site is what we make of it, together. We can do with more authors; MickySavage is carrying (too) much of the load IMO.

          Because I care, I put time and effort into TS, not nearly as much as MS and Lynn, but we all live busy lives.

          As I said to Andre the other day, I’m flexing my Moderator muscles more but I don’t want to come down on people who stray like a ton of bricks.

          As with authors, commenters come and go but the ‘readership’ of TS is pretty steady and as far as I can tell, about 90% are returning visitors, so we (authors + commenters) must be doing something right.

    • greywarshark 20.2

      Muttonbird I was doing some self restriction there. But this goes beyond Sam; there is too much freedom for multiple comments. An automatic guillotine required after three I thought. Get told to take a break, and the moderator only has to say, that's an equal playing field for all flamers, no aggro – a stop for a day, or week – I am willing for it to be applied to me if I go on like a loony for too long, in a flame war that is. Then the verbally loose can take turns to play in the sandpit, and get cleared out before we need to clean up.

  19. marty mars 21

    Shaneo doesn't mind greasing if he has to.

    Cabinet Minister Shane Jones has apologised – for a second time – for calling farmers a bunch of bleaters.


  20. greywarshark 22

    Brian Tamaki may have good bones to be a star. This guy could be Brian with big dark glasses with real gold rims.


    From Nine To Noon, 10:06 am on 24 May 2019

    Gianni Russo didn't need acting experience for the role he's best known for – Carlo Rizzi, the husband of Connie Corleone, in the iconic 1972 film The Godfather. That's because he began working in organized crime from the tender age of 13 as an errand boy for crime legend Frank Costello.

    • Sabine 23.1

      they will use him to make it so.

      the US has been a a totalitarian regime (pretending to be a republic) for some time now, capitalism and being able to buy shit made it affordable for many, but with the arrival of the shart cannon it has been turned into an openly roque totalitarian regime and trump is now the hostage taker of the world. People voted to have shit shook up and the system collapse, well buckle in my friend cause the ride is gonna be rough.

      the old saying comes to mind:

      go to bed with dogs, wake up with fleas.

  21. mosa 25

    Should the CIA stooge Guaido and his white supremacists grab power, it will be the 68th overthrow of a sovereign government by the United States, most of them democracies. A fire sale of Venezuela's utilities and mineral wealth will surely follow, along with the theft of the country's oil, as outlined by John Bolton.


  22. greywarshark 26

    It's NZ Music Month. Radionz tonight to midnight all NZ music.

    Poi E – All about it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Evx3J-bzNRQ



    ♪ Poi E ♪ official lyrics

    (intro – solo a cappella: chanted by lead female kaea.)
    Te poi!
    patua taku poi patua kia rite
    pa para patua taku poi e!

    e rere ra e taku poi poro-titi
    ti-taha-taha ra whaka-raru-raru e
    poro-taka taka ra poro hurihuri mai
    rite tonu ki te ti-wai-waka e
    Ka pare pare ra pī-o-o-i-o-i a
    whaka-heke-heke e ki a kori kori e
    piki whaka-runga ra ma mui-nga mai a
    taku poi poro-titi taku poi e
    poi e whaka-tata mai
    poi e kaua he rerekē
    poi e kia piri mai ki au
    poi e-e awhi mai ra
    poi e tāpeka tia mai
    poi e o taua aroha
    poi e pai here tia ra

    poi… taku poi e!
    Repeat solo a cappella: chanted by lead female kaea.
    Patua taku poi patua kia rite
    pa para patua taku poi e!
    Verse & chorus repeated again, same sequence.
    Instrumental break, usually poi percussion.
    Then key change: repeat chorus on key change.
    At end of song:
    poi… taku poi e! 4 times
    Then everyone chants at song's end:
    rere atu taku poi ti ta' taha ra
    whakarunga whaka raro taku poi e!

  23. Morrissey 27

    The War against Dissent continues

    Hilla Dayan discusses the right-wing Zionist group Im Tirtzu, and the scare campaign against leftist and progressive professors going on in Israel…

    Question No. 5: Gideon, you’ve been called “the most hated man in Israel.” Do you suffer from Shin Bet surveillance, in the way that Donald Woods was spied on in South Africa?
    GIDEON LEVY: It was the Independent that called me the most hated man in Israel. However, I am not the story. Yes, there have been some physical attacks. But we are still a liberal democracy for Jewish citizens. I was arrested once for entering the West Bank. My car was shot once, and we counted nine bullet marks. It was an armor-plated car, however. The Israeli regime is aiming now at NGOs and the Supreme Court. Their next target will be the media.

    Question No. 6: What can you tell us about the Knesset bill to ban the police filing corruption charges against any government officials?
    GIDEON LEVY: There are many cracks in Israel’s democracy, in particular that bill. There are many anti-democratic bills in the Israeli parliament now. Soon, even the notion that Israel is democratic for Jews will be gone. However, it still survives for the moment, and I enjoy full freedom to speak and write.

    —Gideon Levy spoke in Auckland on Dec. 3, 2017


  24. sumsuch 28

    Glad to hear next census we the irreligious will be in the majority. Versus the politicisation of the religious for the Right in America. With b.a.s in my family I was a little alerted about that. But what do we make of Kiwiblog having 4 times the comments of demo-cratic NZ, which is really the only one?

  25. sumsuch 29

    I think if we understood ourselves — the advantage the Scandies and Holland have over us — we'd all come out onto the streets for the poor, sick, weak and outcasts. Poisons everything not doing that.

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