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Open mike 26/06/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 26th, 2020 - 267 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

267 comments on “Open mike 26/06/2020 ”

  1. Dennis Frank 1

    Being woke doesn't necessarily make someone braindead. It just often seems that it does:

    In a 1945 essay, Notes on Nationalism, George Orwell described a rumour among leftists that the real reason American troops had been brought to Europe was to suppress English communism, not fight the Nazis. “One has to belong to the intelligentsia to believe things like that,” Orwell famously noted. “No ordinary man could be such a fool.”

    Even by Orwell’s high standards, those words have aged extremely well. Tell an ordinary Canadian schlub that white people aren’t allowed to quote Beyoncé, and he will be smart enough to laugh in your face. Dress down a superbly intelligent Peace and Conflict Studies PhD candidate for the same act, and she will fall over herself with apologies. I refer here, of course, to federal NDP leadership candidate Niki Ashton, who back in March tweeted “Like Beyoncé says, to the left. Time for an unapologetic left turn for the #NDP, for social, racial, enviro and economic justice.” The Vancouver chapter of Black Lives Matter tweeted a demand that Ashton retract her appropriation of Beyoncé. And she complied, meekly replying: “Not our intention to appropriate. We’re committed to a platform of racial justice + would appreciate ur feedback.” https://nationalpost.com/news/world/jonathan-kay-on-the-tyranny-of-twitter-how-mob-censure-is-changing-the-intellectual-landscape/amp

    What's going on here? Herding. On the basis that it is inappropriate for white folk to acknowledge the merit in what a black person says. Apparently. If you feel the woke doing the herding of the politician in the above instance are not doing so on that basis, feel free to explain what you believe their basis actually is…

    • SPC 1.1

      Or a man to quote Mary Wollstonecraft on the rights of women or any later feminist.

      I do not wish them [women] to have power over men; but over themselves.

      Lately Taika W linked to video of Killer Mike's advice to blacks to use theuir anger constructively


      • I Feel Love 1.1.1

        and TW rightly got told told to F off with his unwanted "listen to this eloquent black man" comments.

        • SPC

          So you say.

          In fact he described Killer Mike’s comment as eloquent. I am sure he has described a womens expression of a viewpoint as eloquent on occasion as well. Or a fellow Maori/Polynesian. Has he been attacked for that?

          It's a nonsense charge, and note since Killer Mikes comment there was less violence – looting and so on and progress is now being made. So who was right?

          • I Feel Love

            It's a nonsense charge, unless you're black and find "eloquent male and/or female" offensive, coz it implies black people are not eloquent, it's a historical thing, but hey, I got my view, you got yours, KM has his and a few 1000 pissed off black Americans got theirs… yet the protests did bring change?

            • SPC

              It's become a political issue rather than activist only one. You've got Congress divided between Dem (House) and Rep Senate positions on nationwide police reform, so its now an election issue (what happened to Engel in New York). And at city and state level regulatory changes on police practice.

              When the right is prevented from portraying it as some black violence threat they lose their power to control the narrative.

          • Gabby

            After and because aren't synonymous.

      • Grafton Gully 1.1.2

        "a standing cock knows no conscience" – probably the the same for a turgid cunt.


        I'm here because cock met cunt and grateful for it. How much power did she have over herself – let alone he over himself.

    • weka 1.2

      without looking any further than your comment, I'd guess it's contextual to that particular politician eg she *is appropriating a well known black woman's politics for her own political ends and she's not known for being an ally to black people or there is some history there. I take those situations not to be that white people can never quote black people, but that black people are pulling white people up on it when they do it inappropriately and this is very visible at this time. When white people actually get on with the business of changing institutional racism, things will change.

      I also think that there are serious issues with the potent mix of social media, call out culture, the neoliberalisation of social justice issues, and that some shit is getting out of hand. How to tell which is the out of hand stuff and which is the useful stuff is not always that easy.

      Btw, 'woke' has a different meaning for black communities in the US than it does here. I can't tell which you were meaning.

      • Dennis Frank 1.2.1

        Gosh & golly, you're right! Oops, I said a naughty word. 😉

        Woke as a political term of African-American origin refers to a perceived awareness of issues concerning social justice and racial justice… By the late 2010s, woke had been adopted as a more generic slang term broadly associated with left-wing politics, socially liberal causes, feminism, LGBT activism, and cultural issues

        The term 'woke' and 'wide awake' first appear in political culture and political ads during the 1860 presidential election in support of Abraham Lincoln. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke

        So looks like I was using the "generic slang" version. Life in postmodernism sure does get complicated sometimes. I get why some guys retreat to a hut in the woods…

        • weka

          I'd say most people in NZ use it in its more recent meaning. I try an avoid using it, (it's a word fraught with sociopolitical complexities) although this is becoming more difficult.

          • maggieinnz

            I try an avoid using it, (it's a word fraught with sociopolitical complexities)

            Agreed. The labels are loaded and not always in a predictable way.

    • RedLogix 1.3

      Dennis, do you remember before the internet it was thought that the cause of collective human stupidity was the lack of access to information? Well it wasn't that.

      • Dennis Frank 1.3.1

        Excellent & profound observation, RL, take a bow for that! My favourite theory is that the cocktail of additives that the capitalists put in the food to keep people compliant is the culprit. But don't tell anyone – already enough folks freaking out about other stuff… 🤐

    • swordfish 1.4

      What's going on here?

      The endless nightmare of psychopathic power-plays, guilt-trip manipulation & control-freak behaviour that naturally flow from Intersectionality. Nutty little Cult.

      • SPC 1.4.1

        I was reading a few days ago a Jewish (well something written by a Jewish male) opine that if people were going to allow blacks to be arbiters of racism, why were they resistant to Jews defining and determining the antisemtism of others.

        • swordfish

          An unhealthy culture of aggressively competitive victimhood, outrage & power-seeking. Deeply divisive & destructive. For all its cynical appropriation of high-minded Left-sounding rhetoric, Intersectionality inevitably produces a cutthroat world where power is transferred & opportunists advance through character assassination & something bordering on reputational homicide. Constant denunciation & ritualized public humiliations. It's a Cult pretty much pre-programmed to eat its own … the Woke soon discover they can never be quite Woke enough.

          All predicated, of course, on a crude, childlike monocausal distortion of history. Eternally evil & sinful demographics vs eternally innocent & virtuous ones. Almost guaranteed to produce Social Injustice on a massive massive scale.

          • Drowsy M. Kram

            Are there any just ‘social equally causes‘ that can be safely pursued, or are they all "a crude, childlike monocausal distortion of history", equally deserving of derision?

            IMHO the NZ anti-apartheid and anti-nuclear protests were an expression of support for worthwhile causes (what the heck, I’m going to lump in BLM, and be damned), although some have characterised them as 'virtue signalling'. Fortunately it's difficult to control what people consider to be worthwhile/worthless causes, at least in NZ – vive la différence.

            "Conscious expressions of moral values are attacked as "virtue signalling" or, more recently, "woke". Both terms are intended to slight."


            • Dennis Frank

              In 1970, I marched behind HART's banners in my first protest. Hated it but knew I had to. Antinuclear most of my life. Have expressed moral judgments since the early '70s too. Seems to me the difference is stylistic.

              In the old days people in minority groups had a focus on articulating common ground. First within the group, then to the people at large. That involves rapport, an effort at understanding others, etc. Nowadays groups focus on intergroup competition, make no effort to establish rapport, and the value of identifying common ground never seems to occur to them.

              • Drowsy M. Kram

                "Nowadays groups focus on intergroup competition, make no effort to establish rapport, and the value of identifying common ground never seems to occur to them."

                You could be right Dennis (sigh), but it's difficult for me to accept such broad generalisations. I believe that (even) nowadays some groups (still) embrace intergroup cooperation, make an effort to establish rapport, and try to identify common ground.


                • Dennis Frank

                  No, I agree your scepticism is sensible. Hindsight is misleading, inherently, due to our subjective bias. I'm not saying I'm correct in what I wrote, it's just how it seems to me. 🙂

            • swordfish

              The great Civil Rights Movements of the recent past (some of which I participated in locally) were explicitly liberal projects, grounded in a universal concept of human rights & mobilising core moral intuitions of fairness and reciprocity … in other words a noble universal liberal ethos recognising shared humanity & individual worth that emerged out of Renaissance Humanism, before further refinement during the Enlightenment … Contemporary Identity Politics has certainly attempted to trade on the good name of previous civil rights projects but it's a radically different beast … both ethically & philosophically … As dangerous, divisive & destructive as fuck.

              • Drowsy M. Kram

                "As dangerous, divisive & destructive as fuck" to who/what?

                Are any contemporary civil rights causes just, and how is that decided?

                "Identity politics covers a broad array of theoretical and practical interventions that ground themselves in, and take as their point of departure, the lived experience and group interests of groups of people who share social identity categories. Examples of “identities” in this sense include but are not restricted to gender, race, ethnicity, sexuality, and religion."

      • Dennis Frank 1.4.2

        So I had to read the wiki for it – turns out to be a worthy notion. Problematic in usage then. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

        "The ideas behind intersectional feminism existed long before the term was coined. Sojourner Truth's 1851 "Ain't I a Woman?" speech, for example, exemplifies intersectionality, in which she spoke from her racialized position as a former slave to critique essentialist notions of femininity."

        • theotherpat

          SPC Comment/quote above i think is the secret to all this for everyone…"I do not wish them [women] to have power over men; but over themselves."….all else becomes moot when this succeeds for men and women.

          • Dennis Frank

            I thought so too. Does indeed seem to be the key point. Liberation was a powerful ethos, which is why feminism emerged from Women's Lib. Autonomy is the more general notion (applying to nations as well).

  2. gsays 2

    A bit like males are not allowed an opinion on abortion…

    • Molly 2.1

      Of course, males can have an 'opinion on abortion'.

      Are you saying that because some males opinions are criticised or challenged, that you feel that should not be allowed?

      And you conveniently ignore the fact that the legalities around abortion are often designed, voted on, and implemented by a male-majority in many countries. So, your comment is both a bit whinging and failing to comprehend the real-life situation we have in the world today.

      I would propose that anyone – male or female – who wishes to put forward their opinion on such a divisive and emotive issue as abortion, would need to have the ability to listen much more than the ability to talk.

      However, females, in this situation have lived experiences that gives them much more to talk about, so the balance of listening better and for longer, falls on males. There is no avoidance of that reality, either.

      • gsays 2.1.1

        Yep, I did leave out 'dissenting' from the sentence.

        Often when the discussion about abortion gets going around these parts, more than once, a male antagonist is told to butt out.

        I don't disagree with what you have said above, the lawmakers etc being male.

        • Molly

          " Yep, I did leave out 'dissenting' from the sentence. "

          No, you didn't.

          You assumed that dissenting means in opposition to female opinions. Females – like males – encompass a wide range of views.

          Your late addition of 'dissenting' emphasises your underlying presumption – males vs females. Telling.

          " Often when the discussion about abortion gets going around these parts, more than once, a male antagonist is told to butt out. "

          Often, I notice that a person who continually avoids consideration of another person's viewpoint or experience, and doesn't engage honestly or with the intention of learning or gaining insight, sometimes find that the patience of the person with whom they are engaging often runs out.

          This is normal. Once again, nothing to do with gender, everything to do with communication skills.

          " I don't disagree with what you have said above, the lawmakers etc being male."

          Of course not. Hard to disagree with reality.

          But interesting that you don't admit that it has some context in this discussion you initiated.

          • gsays

            Yes, I did leave out dissenting from the first utterance.

            I can't see much point in carrying on as you claim to know what I think and what I mean.

            • Molly

              No, I claim to have good reading comprehension. Try it, it might lead somewhere.

              "I can't see much point in carrying on as you claim to know what I think and what I mean. "

              Yes, because I’m reading what you are writing, not reading your mind. How does it feel? (And once, again no comment on the content of my comment, just on the supposed misunderstanding)

              Has my 'dissenting' voice caused this heed to disengage?


      • Cinny 2.1.2

        This bit Molly….heart

        However, females, in this situation have lived experiences that gives them much more to talk about, so the balance of listening better and for longer, falls on males. There is no avoidance of that reality, either.

        A thousand times yes yes

    • Cinny 2.2

      If a person is against abortion, the solution is simple, don't have one. 🙂 Problem solved.

      • I Feel Love 2.2.1

        Nice one Cinny and Molly, of course us men are allowed to opine, jeez I've never yet met a man who doesn't have a view on everything. "Not allowed", ffs.

        • Cinny


        • gsays

          While I didn't make it clear enough (too early, rushed), I meant in 'woke circles', a dissenting male opinion often isn't tolerated.

          Going to work this morning I figured I had stood on my own landmine.

          • I Feel Love

            I still don't know what Woke is, or care, but male opinions are not threatened, we often have the loudest most abrasive voices, "zip it sweetie" has never been aimed at men.

            • SPC

              Short version, a new term for PC (especially when on social media) and often accused of seeking to deplatform others not woke.

          • Cinny

            Gsays 🙂 🙂 🙂

            I meant in 'woke circles', a dissenting male opinion often isn't tolerated.

            I wouldn't say that, but I would say such opinions would be challenged rather than not tolerated.

            The whole 'woke left' thing has been cracking me up since it first came on the lingo scene, the reason being is that tories think it's a put down. However, I'd much rather be a woke lefty than a sleepy righty 🙂

            • SPC

              What about half awoke Sleepy Joe? Right wing for a left winger but too left wing for the GOP.

              • gsays

                Probably right there, SPC.

                There are plenty of issues where my opinion has moved.

                Rather that than being certain all the time.

              • Cinny

                Too true SPC. Deepest sympathies to the USA, what a choice, poor buggers.

                Hugs Gsays 🙂 you are awesome my friend yes

            • gsays

              I figure I have dug deep enough with my shovel now, any more commenting I will have to get a digger out.

          • Patricia Bremner

            gsays, have a good day and don't fret the small stuff. I find myself being sexist at times when dealing with things designed by men for that mythical other lol

            • gsays

              Thanks Patricia.

              The notion was well formed in my head, then clumsily executed.

              And while it wasn't a contest, explaining is losing.

    • weka 2.3

      it's not that men can't have an opinion on abortion (anyone can have an opinion about anything). It's that they shouldn't get to have a say on what women do with their own bodies. So if a man comes into a conversation with women about abortion and thinks that his voice holds as much place as women's, that's probably going to cause some problems. Often it's about how something is said, but also after decades of trying to get change on this issue, many women are just fed up with the reckons.

      • SPC 2.3.1

        It's all been covered long ago.

        Mary Wollstonecraft on the rights of women.

        I do not wish them [women] to have power over men; but over themselves.

      • Rosemary McDonald 2.3.2

        So if a man comes into a conversation with women about abortion and thinks that his voice holds as much place as women's, that's probably going to cause some problems…

        The man can always claim to identify as being a woman then she can opine on an equal footing. Problem solved.

        Strange times we live in.

        • weka

          I was using the term 'woman' in its biologically female sense 🙂

          • francesca

            Don't go there Weka…also a mine field in these days of our lives

            • SPC

              But in the game of intersectional thrones, is not the lesser or smaller minority the most discriminated against and therefore …

              In one of the greatest ironies of recent times, Gorsuch the literalist and originalist used his take on the word sex in the 1964 Civil Rights Act to deliver an extension of civil rights to the greatest number possible. And this after Rowling herself said there was no same sex without birth sex.

              However I somehow doubt that some people will give her any credit.

              • greywarshark

                While we are thinking about human behaviour and control over others, can we also think about giving others the right to follow a process that enables them to die quietly when they wish it?

                This would be after following a thoughtful, practical preparation set in law, at a time and in a way that is fair to their family and friends as well, when they are terminally ill, and have been diagnosed as such clearly beyond error.

                The present clauses of the suggested law don't even allow that, they are much more stringent, but please can we have freedom for those who wish it, done in a way that protects them from bad methods and stress.

              • weka

                Who is Gorsuch, and what did they say about the word sex in the CRA?

                • SPC

                  SCOTUS, Gorsuch was a Trump appointment (the place Garland was chosen for by Obama). Their 1964 Civil Rights Act said no one could be fired on the grounds of their sex, Gorsuch along with more liberal judges decided (a few weeks back) that sex included sexuality and gender ID, thus providing homosexuals and the transgender with protection from employment discrimination.

      • Draco T Bastard 2.3.3

        So if a man comes into a conversation with women about abortion and thinks that his voice holds as much place as women's, that's probably going to cause some problems.

        The problem with that is that it is a moral issue and not just women having a say on what to do with their own bodies.

        Is abortion, as a matter of fact, murder as some would say?

        Because if its murder then it is a whole of society issue and not just a women’s issue.

        • weka

          It's no more murder than contraception that prevents implantation of a fertilised egg. I don't actually care if it is killing a being or not, it's still the woman's choice because of the impact on her and the risks. Society should just trust women on this, and support them to make the best choices. Free access to contraception and abortion, a decent level of DPB, freedom from violence and coercion, free access to education, and the problem largely resolves itself.

          Men wanting a say in abortion access is antithetical to that. Maybe if we lived in a non-patriarchal world it would be different, but we don't.

          • Draco T Bastard

            It's no more murder than contraception that prevents implantation of a fertilised egg.

            I agree but not everyone else does and thus it becomes a question that the whole of society, including men, needs to answer.

            Society should just trust women on this, and support them to make the best choices.

            Pretty sure that men used to say the same thing and look where that got us.

            No matter what some think people don't make the best choices just because of their gender.

            • McFlock

              No. Society has no role in answering theological questions, and "god says it's alive from sperm meeting egg" is a theological position.

              Additionally, abortion is a medical decision, which lowewrs the number of people who should have any input whatsoever. Basically to patient, doctor, and medical council. And if any of the latter two have an ethical problem with a specific person having a specific procedure, they'd better have a lot more than "a self-contradictory text says it's bad".

              • Incognito

                If you take the position that society is a collective of individuals then social acceptance, ethics and morals, tolerance is the emergent result of all those individual views. This includes decisions about the practice of abortion and euthanasia, for example, and the provision of such practices, including education and training of (the) practitioners. The lines are never as sharp and the issues are never in focus as much as people would like when they advocate for or against something and formulate a narrative that not only suits and supports their advocacy but also often morphs it into a compelling absolutism. The result makes for poor debate because with challenging and controversial issues, views tend to polarise into simplistic binary positions. A by-effect is the exclusion of groups of people from the ‘debate’ because they don’t meet certain eligibility/inclusion criteria or do meet certain exclusion criteria. To me, it is a huge flag when criteria are applied to a commenter for allowing/disallowing their comments and/or judging the merit/veracity of their comments.

                • McFlock

                  I wouldn't say abortion and euthenasia are in the same category.

                  Euthenasia consists of a single actor deciding when their existence does them more harm than good, and the repercussions on society of enabling that. There are other issues (some religious) around the debate, but small beer compared to those two.

                  Whereas abortion is a medical procedure, but the bulk of the political debate around it concerns the idea of what constitutes human life.

                  Church and state should be separate, and that involves not making theological legislation.

                  • RedLogix

                    I wouldn't say abortion and euthenasia are in the same category.

                    Only if you make your categories narrow enough. But if you expand the cases to include say suicide and murder, then it's clear what we are really talking about … the sanctity of human life.

                    Personally I tend to err towards an absolutist position on this, because those who compromise on this usually cannot be trusted to know where to stop.

                    • McFlock

                      You really think the law on murder is about the sanctity of human life rather than maintaining the security of an ordered society?

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      I trust you to the extent that you will make the right choice for you. Can you please trust me enough to believe that I will make the right choice for me? I'm actually pleading here, although why I should need to is beyond me.

                  • roblogic

                    So you're claiming that running cult of death isn't a theological position?

                    • McFlock

                      It's not even a coherent sentence.

                      What is this "running cult of death"?

                    • roblogic

                      I meant "running *a* cult of death"… a bit of hyperbole.

                      Many cultures in NZ that hold life to be sacred; trying to disqualify them from entering the conversation because "theology" is the antithesis of democracy

              • weka

                are you saying that there should be access on demand to all abortion services? i.e. it should be completely decriminalised?

                • McFlock

                  In the manner of any other medical procedure, yes. The only regulation for abortions should be the standard medical regulations around competence, informed consent, and so on.

                  It should be handled the same way as every other significant procedure. Especially in that it's nobody else's business.

                  • weka

                    I'm just wondering how the medical profession would manage gatekeeping if the decisions were passed to them without legal guidance. It would be nice to think it would become a health issues, but history suggests it wouldn't.

                    • McFlock

                      Yeah, but the law around medical care should encourage good care, not put barriers between patients and care like the old "convince two doctors you'll go crazy" abortion legislation.

                      The new law seems to be almost at the point of just telling doctors to do their damned job. Especially that bit about objecting doctors having to refer the patient to a doctor who will actually do their job.

                      I don't like the 20 week limit (seriously, as anyone ever been pregnant for almost six months and then decided to terminate for shits and giggles?), but if it's a barrier I guess women will keep the struggle going.

                    • weka

                      I wasn't thinking about the new legislation, but what would happen if the whole thing was taken off statute and how the medical profession would handle things if they weren't being given specific legal guidelines. Lots of areas of health care where doctors don't live up to good care, or where there are conflicts of interest. This isn't an argument against decriminalisation per se, just hadn't thought about this aspect before. But maybe having something in law give protection. Looking at the US and imagining if those laws weren't in place.

                    • McFlock

                      There might be a country in the world that always just lumped terminations in with any other procedure within basic medical regulation, and it probably worked out pretty well.

                      But with our baggage in NZ, just leaving it for patients to make Medical Council or HDC complaints is no good for that patient, and the Medical Council might be reluctant to censure for a period. Having the clarity in legislation overrules any conflict they might feel, in essence shortening the period of adaptation to the new structure.

              • Draco T Bastard

                Additionally, abortion is a medical decision, which lowewrs the number of people who should have any input whatsoever.

                And what proves that?

                It's not a theological question but a philosophical one, what should be.

                • McFlock

                  Sure, if you want to pretend that medical decisions have no current regulation whatsoever.

                  But if terminations are a medical decision only, then the framework around privacy, decision making, and informed consent is already extant and operational.

  3. Dennis Frank 3

    Heh. "The Trump administration delivered more than a million stimulus payments worth about $1.4 billion to dead people" reports the New York Times. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/25/us/politics/coronavirus-stimulus-dead-people.html

    But will it stimulate them sufficiently to make them get up, zombie into the polling booths & vote for him? Time will tell…

  4. mpledger 4

    I think one of the lessons to be learned about the recent surge in cases at the boarder is that repatriation flights have to be early – there is no point waiting around for an epidemic to blow-up and infect the people waiting to come home.

  5. Cinny 5

    Miss 15 has a bad cough, decided to be a good parent and take her to the Dr's. She was given a Covid test and now we are in self isolation, waiting the results. Am 99.9% sure it's not Covid, but I guess these are the rules now and we are OK with that.

    I'd be devastated if we took no notice of the rules and possibly infected or worse, killed others.

    On the upside, thanks to lock down, we understand how to do quarantine and I'm set up to work from home.

    • SPC 5.1

      We are lucky to have no known cases of community spread of coronavirus, imagine the panic during cold and flu outbreaks if that were not the case?

      • In Vino 5.1.1

        For Miss 15's sake, I hope that the Covid test was not too uncomfortable, as I have heard it can be. Good on you both, Cinny.

  6. Gabby 6

    How are we going to quarantine all those yanker , brazilian and pom sarker fans who will be arriving in 2013?

    • The Al1en 6.1

      “arriving in 2013?”

      Using a time travel machine 😆

    • Dennis Frank 6.2

      Don't worry about those time travellers, we've moved on from 2013. Too soon to worry about those coming in 2023 as well. Cross that bridge when we come to it.

      • Gabby 6.2.1

        That's the sort of ad hockery thinking that keeps us in this shitshow.

        • Dennis Frank

          I spell it adhocery and call it faith in the future. In other words, faith that Ardern will continue as PM post-election, and replace Clark with someone who can actually do the job. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/adhocery

          I wouldn't go so far as to have faith that non-performers will be replaced by competent public servants. Everyone knows that will never happen.

          • Gabby

            You are welcome to spell adhockery any way you like and to practise your touching faith in the future but then to admit that your faith is misplaced is… curious.

  7. Dennis Frank 7

    Craft ethos is ancient, but likely to become evident once again as an essential strand of the trend towards a resilient sustainable economy. Here's a relevant portal: https://craftsmanship.net/about/

    And from the online mag they produce:

    While COVID restrictions shutter businesses right and left, a more positive picture is emerging from worker-owned companies like Mondragon, the Spanish enterprise that's become the world's largest co-op, and Evergreen Cooperatives in Cleveland, Ohio. Both operations keep proving that, during economic crises, co-ops adapt better than traditional companies, and they continue paying their workers more equitably as well. Why don’t more businesses follow “the Mondragon model”?

    They don't because collective ownership and management only results from collective competence. Few employees have organising skills. Even the basic requirement of consensus decision-making is too hard for ego-driven folk, too hard for self-reliant individualists, too hard for those who talk working together without walking their talk. Most employees choose this default position: "I want an employer to do it all for me". And then leftists wonder why rightists win business support by default.

    • Draco T Bastard 7.1

      They don't because collective ownership and management only results from collective competence. Few employees have organising skills.

      What a load of bollocks.

      They don't because our laws and customs are about having individual ownership and dictatorship control over a business.

      Put employees into a position where they have to learn the skills necessary to run a business and, IMO, they will.

      Most employees choose this default position: "I want an employer to do it all for me".

      You're assuming that they have a different choice available to them which they, realistically, don't.

      • Dennis Frank 7.1.1

        Well, I've been watching this space since I first learned about Mondragon during the 1970s. I expected the left to adopt the model and was puzzled when they failed. My explanation is an attempt to account for that historical failure, and why it has persisted for so long. So how many employee-generated co-ops have you noticed in Aotearoa??

        • Barfly

          Is the bunch that started at the old Cadbury factory 1? Ocho is it?

          • Dennis Frank

            Looks like a hybrid: "Almost 3500 investors, of which 35% were local, snapped up shares in the company following its successful "Own the Factory" PledgeMe campaign in 2017." https://www.odt.co.nz/business/ocho-seriously-underperforming

            Google didn’t find me anything that said employees are co-owners though. So maybe not a co-op. Also Mondragon (Semco too) use employee participation in management decisions.

        • Draco T Bastard

          I expected the left to adopt the model and was puzzled when they failed.

          I wasn't. The Left, after all, are still capitalists.

          So how many employee-generated co-ops have you noticed in Aotearoa??

          Several thousand.

          Of course, they're still very much in the capitalist mindset due to our laws that force ownership.

          My explanation is an attempt to account for that historical failure, and why it has persisted for so long.

          There is, of course, more than one explanation. Off the top of my head there's also:

          • Lack of knowledge that coops even exist
          • No money/time to start one
          • Don't know how to start one
          • Don't know enough people to start one with and no known way to find such people

          Just labelling people as lazy is both pathetic and condescending.

          • Dennis Frank

            I didn't (label them lazy). And that page you linked too does not specify the number of co-ops you claim.

            My point was the ongoing failure of the left to adopt the model. I've never seen or heard of any leftist group or organisation in Aotearoa doing so. And I wonder how many other leftists agree with your statement about them: "The Left, after all, are still capitalists." I therefore await the appearance of written declarations from the other commentators agreeing with your view! 🙄

            • Draco T Bastard

              My point was the ongoing failure of the left to adopt the model.

              It's a point I agree with and would love to see further support for cooperatives.

              Mostly what I'd like to see is the elimination of ownership of cooperatives. IMO, a cooperative should be a legal entity that has no ownership and is controlled by all who work there.

              And Fonterra is more accurately called a cartel.

              I therefore await the appearance of written declarations from the other commentators agreeing with your view!

              So, you're waiting for them to say that they're all communists?

  8. Rosemary McDonald 8

    Senior government employee plants hidden camera in gym changing room capturing nearly 40,000 images.

    Pleads guilty to a representative charge and walks Scot free with permanent name suppression.

    And a promotion…gained after the charges were laid and with the knowledge of his Boss.

    Our government.


    Clearly we have no option other than to suspect all male government employees as possible perverts.

    • SPC 8.1

      When one talks of privilege in society, institutional racism, sexism etc and how it manifests itself. Well there are those charged and convicted and those not. And why.

      PS your link may now be out of use.

      • Rosemary McDonald 8.1.1

        PS your link may now be out of use.

        Funny that.

        About on a par with Grainne Moss' CV.


        I'm loving this open and transparent shit.

        • SPC

          Some seriously good journalism there.

          • Rosemary McDonald

            Those of us with an interest in matters health and disability (including care facilities and how complaints are handled by the HDC) wondered at the time how on earth Moss got arguably the most scrutinized top government job.

            And gets to bring four of her BUPA employees with her.

        • Anne

          Thanks for that link Rosemary @ 8.1.1. Interesting story, the basis of which was repeated in other Public Service entities following the neoliberal changes in the 1980s.

          I went through a similar experience only in my case it was a male boss – an American – who burst on to the scene in the late 1980s. Suffice to say it was in the middle of the US/NZ standoff over the anti-nuclear legislation passed in 1986 and there was a link to that event within the govt. agency I worked for. He abruptly left his position late in 1992 and was never seen again. The Public Service entity in question went to considerable lengths to cover up the circumstances of his departure.

          Transparency was not the name of the game for 30 plus years and it will take a long time to clean out the Public Service and return it to something akin to what it used to be.

          • OnceWasTim

            +1 @ Anne.

            We both know that weird shit happened in the PS (Yes Minister type crap since Adam was a boy), however something fairly radical changed with the reforms of the 80s and it seems that even with Chippie's desire for reform, nothing substantial seems to be happening, and even his proposals seems pretty lame.

            I'll be party voting Green this election after a lifetime of supporting Labour, and despite my admiration for JA. (As will a good percentage of family members) The main reason is to do with the state of our neo-liberal PS, the lack of ethics and accountability, the fact that in the senior ranks, they've lost sight of the fact that they're 'servants' rather than leaders of little (sometimes very large) feifdoms, and any sort of accountability seems to be a 'nice to have'.

            The amount and seriousness of the number of fuckups that are now apparent in many Ministries and Depts now seem to be tolerated as a matter of 'the cost of doing business'. (Bizzniss being the operative word)

            My reply to @ Weka on the Daily Review (23/6/20) PARTIALLY sums it up at 6.2, but there's a lot of other stuff. And even WITHIN the current structure, there are/have been mechanisms where people could have been called to account.

            The ONLY thing that might change my intention to party vote Green might be something like the old 'pledge card' – controversial as it was, but the promises substantially kept, and I doubt that's going to happen.

            The NEWSROOM article came as absolutely no surprise, but if we think all that kind of shit is limited to OT, I can get you a nice price on the Auckland Harbour Bridge.

            • OnceWasTim

              Well it's not just the PS, but other stuff like the snails' pace in doing something/ANYTHING about the state of PS broadcasting and media – including preserving plurality of voice and the independents. There are ekshully one or two simple solutions (in that space going forward).

            • OnceWasTim

              Oh, and as for Grainne Moss: here's my impressive CV. I tick all the boxes. And just by the way – did I tell you I'm compassionate?

              Why no you didn't!

              Hark! panel. I think we may just have the perfect specimen for heading up a new improved CYFS. I think that about does it team. Why don't we off down to Astoria? We can discuss the next steps there. Job well done 'team'

            • Anne

              The NEWSROOM article came as absolutely no surprise,

              It read like a re-write of my own experiences and what I have witnessed.

              These narcissistic, psychopathic individuals who manage to ingratiate themselves with their superiors are far more prevalent in society than most people know. They are clever at passing themselves off as competent, trustworthy people, and can fool even the most experienced management in both the public and private sectors. They inevitably cause a great deal of damage not only to their victims but also the entities who employed them.

              They are rarely called to account and this can be due to the fact they compromise their superiors in some way so end up being allowed to get away with it. Very upsetting for the victims who have had their lives and/or their careers destroyed.

              I read a Canadian article years ago and the author noted they are most prevalent in organisations who have a degree of control over the lives of people. He cited the military, police, public services such as health and education as prime places where to find them.

              • Ae!

                As I read you and follow your comments here at TS, I suspect you've been through employment courts????

                If so, I sincerely hope you NEVER ever agreed to any confidentiality agreement. That's the usual trip. Even Mr Hager fell for it, but another trick is to try and wear you down financially.

                Anyway – nanna nap time. but Kia Kaha – I just see them all as rather pathetic these days, and they'll eventually run out of places to go and rocks to hide under

                • Anne

                  As I read you and follow your comments here at TS, I suspect you've been through employment courts????

                  No. There were no employment courts that I knew of back in the 80s and early 90s. The PSA was all there was, but they were still picking themselves up off the floor after 9 years of Muldoon bashing and were very weak.

      • Rosemary McDonald 8.1.2

        Link now working….


        Read it while you can!

        A high level government manager with porn "obsession" who planted a "spy" camera in the bathroom of an Auckland gym, capturing almost 40,000 images of people in various states of undress, has escaped conviction and been granted permanent name suppression.

        The secrecy around the case was driven in part by the man getting a promotion just before the Covid-19 lockdown and fear that his job and workplace would be negatively affected if his name and details of his offending went public.

        The person who found the camera and alerted police is "disgusted" that he has gotten off "completely scot-free" and believed the man should be outed for his "gross crimes".

        The man was a manager within a government agency when the offending occurred.

        He remains working for that agency but is now is a more senior role – a promotion that came after he disclosed his offending.

        Suppression orders prevent the Herald from publishing any further details about his occupation, role or workplace.

        • Cinny

          The man was a manager within a government agency when the offending occurred.

          He remains working for that agency but is now is a more senior role – a promotion that came after he disclosed his offending.

          What the fuckery !!!???

          • Rosemary McDonald

            What the fuckery !!!???

            Or as I politely (for me) put it…'What the fucking fuck?!?'

            Sincerely hope many will read the entire article…I'm rattled by this…and I don't rattle easily.

            If I were a man, working in a government department in a senior role, with a recent promotion on my record…. I would be demanding that this decision be strongly appealed.

            Or….risk prosecution and out this sex offender.

        • RedBaronCV

          So the agency that he works at still has no idea of his offending? So they cannot know despite him maybe breaching his employment contract?

          Are the crown prosecutors going to appeal this? or are they part of it. I find it pretty disturbing all around. I'd have thought that having a high powered job should be more reason for accountability not less.

          • SPC

            He was promoted after informing his boss he was facing a court case.

            Presumably if the matter is kept private it does not impact on the workplace and his position there – thus no contract issue.

            • RedBaronCV

              Well we can see that he is desperate to keep his little snooping private but why did his boss not react to this? The boss can't unknow this if it was presented honestly to him. At a minimum he probably should have arrange for a workplace sweep for bugs and hidden camera's.

              • Draco T Bastard

                The boss can't unknow this if it was presented honestly to him.

                Well, I suppose that's the question isn't it?

                Did the person honestly communicate with his boss?

                • RedBaronCV

                  That would be really interesting to know. And I imagine somebody has been finding this out today.

          • Rosemary McDonald

            Are the crown prosecutors going to appeal this? or are they part of it.

            Brings the whole system into question, doesn't it?

            Idiot me thought perhaps that a guilty plea for such an offense was grounds for instant dismissal. In a government department.

            • Molly

              " Idiot me thought perhaps that a guilty plea for such an offense was grounds for instant dismissal. In a government department. "

              Me, also.

              Be good to see some moves to ensure that if not, this will be the case.

            • RedBaronCV

              Okay anyone know which agencies have a senior presence in Auckland?

              • greywarshark

                Three monkey stuff. If this person is outed, named and dismissed, it presumably becomes a stain on the reputation of the manager in charge, the HR people being used, and the whole cosy fuckery of private business interests doing the government's work for them.

                It also stains the whole neolib system that is embedded, like a stake driven into our hearts though not those of the actually evil people who knowingly run this corrupt system in this world nefarious financial heist.

                • Rosemary McDonald

                  …the manager in charge,

                  From the article describing his rise through the ranks of this government department, it seems very likely he is the manager.

                  …like a stake driven into our hearts…

                  Very much so.

                  • RedBaronCV

                    If he's the manager then where is the state services commission. Although I imagine the yelling match at upper levels has already started. The court stuff can't be accessed but I imagine the employment disclosure can be.

                • RedBaronCV

                  I'd have thought that the appropriate course would be to put on gardening leave pending the court case and an employee hearing. How does this advance the health welfare and safety of the rest of the staff? And do we know which Gym it was? Are people going to be advised that their images are out there. Are they female images only?

                  • SPC

                    One might presume the behaviour is male and he only had access to the male changing rooms (given the risk of being found in the female ones while setting it all up makes that quite unlikely).

                • Anne

                  If this person is outed, named and dismissed, it presumably becomes a stain on the reputation of the manager in charge, the HR people being used, and the whole cosy fuckery….

                  Got it one.

                  • Maybe you recall the guy who thought it OK to refer to people as "SCUM" on social media and had to be 'managed out' of the place.

                    To suggest other people who worked with him didn't know what he was like, and therefore said nothing stretches credibility.

                    And the way the 'team' he was a part of behaved sometimes, was more suited to a Julie Christie reality TV show. I recall talking to one of those 'old school' cops (not sure if he was retired) who was telling me how embarrassed he felt at the way some of them behaved.

                    You have to wonder why the SSC didn't consider that, OR wonder why there is/was a huge staff turnover in places, OR delve deeper into a few other things. As far as I know, many of the people who should have been moved on are still in the place because the ministers have "complete faith in their officials". They seem to be reluctant to tell the SSC to clean up his act

    • Herodotus 8.2

      I gather that the photos were only of those over 16, as would it not rachit the seriousness of the act up should and if these be of minors ? The actions imo are more serious that what our legal systems appears to view them.

      It makes you really wonder & why some in an equal society are more equal than others 🤬 and it was not so long ago that there was a similar act at our USA consul ?

      • Rosemary McDonald 8.2.1

        This pathetic prick, clearly not as well connected, gets named and shamed and his photo in the media. To the distress of his victims and the cops he did not get the jail sentence these crimes warrant.


        • RedBaronCV

          Yep – he looked under punished – but he should from now on always have a male carer. At the first sign of any issues this should be what the outsourced provider does.

          • greywarshark

            Will this fade out of sight under the creeping overwhelming hegemony of surveillance that is being rolled out on us? Will it be commonplace soon and hardly worth a yawn? This is the sort of thing that the anti5G people are concerned about when the streets will have little boosters in every second tree with the sparrows, on each lampost, giving perfect coverage, everything will be connected to the large system.

            So why not pics of shapely women or men over 16 years, what is there to be ashamed about etc.? What loss of our human dignity and freedom are we suffering? Empty minds and mouths will question.

            • SPC

              Consent is the issue in play.

              • greywarshark

                I'm saying that it will become almost normalised. Consent will be assumed if you enter these premises. Complaining about privacy will seem quaint. We are already having problems abiyt respect for citizens in the police practice of setting a road search outside a meeting about euthanasia, getting people's details, then instigating search and remove items they had in the house which were illegal. Similar to a search on gang headquarters.

                Consent is a want to have.

        • Gabby

          Prison wouldn't really be much of a deprivation. That's pretty much on a par with digging up Oliver Cromwell to execute him.

          • Rosemary McDonald

            Seriously Gabby? My man is also a tetraplegic and would certainly not have the hand function to place such a device with such accuracy. From his wheelchair to boot. Unless he has a complicit mate who did the work.

            My man would find prison a massive deprivation. Most tetraplegics, despite what folks not in the know might think, actually have lives outside of the home. Not imprisoned at all.

            And all of the tetraplegics I know would be mightily pissed this pathetic prick got off so lightly after treating his carers with such contempt. Arsehole. And a paedophile to boot. Yuck. Open prison. And as for playing the pathetic lonely cripple card….

            (Not really getting at you Gabby, personal like… the Judge (who has a rep for OTT sentences btw…https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503450&objectid=11491031…) has also obviously not met any real life tetras, so knows no different.)

            • In Vino

              Sort of agree, Rosemary, but I think Prison is such a negative solution that helps nobody. This knob should have been sentenced to permanent (ie, LIFE!) Community Service with strict supervision for many, many years. That might give a positive effect. Prison never does.

    • Gabby 8.3

      I guess the judiciary use the same sex workers as the senior public servants they went to school with. Notthattheresanythingillegalwiththat.

  9. joe90 9

    Lotsa work goes into a good coincidence.


    Nascar officials on Thursday released a photo of the rope found in the garage stall of Bubba Wallace that prompted an FBI probe that determined it had been there since last October. Photograph: NASCAR/Reuters

    Declaring “the noose was real”, Nascar officials on Thursday released a photo of the rope found in the garage stall of black driver Bubba Wallace that prompted a federal investigation that determined it had been there since last October.


  10. SPC 10

    Gorman the public health academic of Auckland University who reckons there is risk of public transmission from people after their 2 week quarantine (if they are not tested) – agreeing with Radio Mike and Todd (despite there being none of it during Level 2 when there was no testing) argued for us to leave Level 3 because the economic cost was too high from trying to stamp out community transmission.

    Des Gorman, who used to head the University of Auckland's School of Medicine, told The AM Show on Monday things like social distancing, "fastidious hygiene" and isolating at the first sign of sickness are the "new normal". As a result, there's "no point in us sitting at level 3", with the financial harm it's causing.

    The Government and most epidemiologists – experts in the spread of disease – that have spoken publicly say eradicating the disease will allow us to fully reopen the economy and be better in the long run. Dr Gorman isn’t sure that’s true. “

    Dr Gorman believes most experts actually agree with him, but are too afraid to speak out.


  11. logie97 11

    Have I missed something.

    The Nats and their press lackys have cooked up a storm over those released from quarantine without testing.

    Have they been advising the populace to be cautious by moving back voluntarily to a "Level 2" approach to the disease? Would seem the prudent thing I would have thought.

    • Stuart Munro 11.1

      They've been playing the odds. Since testing was enforced, we've picked up 1-3 a day from isolated travelers. All things being equal, one or more cases getting through among those who were not tested is likely. Should a cluster providentially turn up, the Gnats plan to lose their shit so epicly that Bridges' fulminations will be utterly eclipsed.

      Their plan is outrage driven reelection – public health outcomes have never been a serious priority for them.

      • SPC 11.1.1

        Not sure about likely. More people went through the 2 weeks without testing before June 9 while we were at level 2 and no community spread.

        Muller's belief that community transmission was likely can be seen as a scare campaign to complement the targeting of the Health Minister and ultimately the government over performance.

        He's rolled the dice out of desperation, but his longer term credibility is likely to be undermined.

        • Stuart Munro

          Muller needs a hail Mary – a new community bubble is probably his best chance. If one gets through now however, in an environment including numerous experienced contact tracers and a health system on alert, there's still a respectable chance of containment. I think we should be ready for an attempt to parley half a dozen cases into "the end of the frickken world".

  12. SPC 12

    David Seymour has been claiming he was advocating for tighter borders back in January and February.

    Has anyone fact checked this? All I can find is a story on Feb 26 about him asking for the PM to return from Fiji to deal with the coronavirus matter. She went from Fiji to Oz to talk to Morrison and then both nations closed their border to those from China.


  13. RedBaronCV 13

    From the dump of government papers. A note about how the community feels about the various levels. Looks like the media were well out of step with what the community actually felt. Hence should we be very doubtful about most of what the media says? Because they have a predetermined narrative of their own and just look for anecdotes to support it?

    There seems to be little doubt that seeing our government in action first hand rather than through the media filter has greatly increased public respect for it. How can we maintain this?

    “Some are frustrated by the limitations on their freedom and inability to see their loved ones. Media stories published about people unable to visit loved ones as they are dying are driving negative sentiment.

    “However, a significant proportion of the conversation on social media is in support of maintaining safety throughout the levels.”


    • francesca 13.1

      Thank god for Gordon Campbell, just a pity he's not more widely published


      I would so love these journalists with big audiences to be themselves interviewed rigorously on why they have chosen to cover certain stories in a less than honest manner

      • francesca 13.1.1

        Would make great television I reckon

        • RedBaronCV

          If anyone would do so. I haven't done any particular analysis yet but when did the media journalists become the story. I happened to see seven sharp last night and there was Hillary and Jeremy interviewing their own parliamentary correspondent?

          What? Given the level of the questions asked in the press conferences I'd have though that just about anybody else's opinion would have been better than that. Why not interview Gordon Campbell if you have to have a journalist.

          And when it comes to the stories headed " calls for resignation" – who are these calls coming from- the journalists trying to be part of the story or the opposition over a particuar issue?

          I had hoped stuff would be better away from corporate ownership.

          • francesca

            “If anyone would do so ”
            Id like to do so

            Members of the public, academics , media students could have the oppurtunity to ask questions of particular journalists and how they presented particular stories
            Could be educational

      • ianmac 13.1.2

        A great review of the Media crookedness. Well done Gordon Campbell. Wouldn't be so bad if they treated the Nats with the same "rigour." For example since the Muller Brigade keeps on talking about the Government's "lack of a plan" but the Media fail to question what their plan is to save "Small Business."

        Or for that matter to highlight the fact that unlike any other country we have so far no recent Community infections. Instead the media just repeat the Opposition's litany of complaints.

        • I Feel Love

          Great article, and that has puzzled me, in The last month the UK had a 1000 people die a day, now that is a freakin disaster, a couple near misses than turn out to be fizzers are barely worth a mention. On the Late Show they were showing clips from the rugby game last week, utterly incredulous and envious, "People watching sports without fear".

      • maggieinnz 13.1.3

        100% agree.

        I was so glad to see that piece. I really was thinking I was going a bit nutty or coming down with a bad case of confirmation bias. We can only hope that articles like this will at least pique the attention of others to take note.

  14. RedBaronCV 14

    And today's sad little bunch of self focused people. Forget quarantine – much more important to let airlines fly – never mind the health costs to taxpayers and the tremendous economic damage to NZ of rampant covid.

    Board of Airline Representatives are an industry body funded one assumes by it's members who are with a couple of exceptions major airlines based offshore.


    • SPC 14.1

      Zombie economics, nations without community spread getting in the way of their business model – international spread until there is herd immunity.

      At the macro level of course business as usual while finite resources are depleted and the burning of carbon impacts on the global habitat for life.

  15. SPC 15

    I see the Taxpayers Union has launched a petition calling for the Minister of Helath to be sacked.

    Given this has nothing to do with use of taxpayers money – it's becoming blatantly obvious what sort of political action group this really is. And they claimed government money to subsidise their wages.

    • RedBaronCV 15.1

      Another sad little bunch of self focused people. Wonder if they have paid back the wage claim or been investigated.

      • Pataua4life 15.1.1

        Ha Ha Ha

        You say your comment on a blog site. Own goal Much

        • RedBaronCV

          Er unlike the taxpayers union or Board of airline reps I do not have my hand in the government pocket for funds nor am I wanting favours that would improve profits at the expense of others.

          But hey it's great that you manage the odd little one liner here and there. looking forwards to some long form contributions from you. Or would you be promoting your own self interest a little much?

  16. observer 16

    NZ has another day of no Covid-19 cases in the community.

    Todd Muller will be disappointed, again.

  17. JohnSelway 17

    So the final update on my clusterfuck of getting tested due to leaving managed isolation without being tested. This morning I called and made an appointment to go get my testing done at 12:40pm. They were very specific that it was urgent so I was there on time and ready to be swabbed. Once I pulled in and put a mask on they approached my drivers side window and asked how long I had been sick for. I said I wasn't sick so they asked why I was even there. I told them I had gotten out of isolation without being tested. So they asked if the Ministry of Health told me to come in. I said "No one has called me so I'm just doing this to be on the safe side".
    "How long ago were you released"?
    I told them "10th June"
    They said I didn't even need to be there. But whatever, I got it done.

    A bit of an omni-shambles. Not sure if there is any central control at all but nonetheless testing complete.

    • The Al1en 17.1

      What was the reason you didn't demand a test before you left managed isolation?

      • JohnSelway 17.1.1

        There was never any mentioning of a test and no one else was tested while I was there (I got to know some of the other people who came in with me). I just followed all the advice from the nursing team and did what I was told

        • Adrian

          You are alive, Covid free and in the safest place in the world and have had 2 weeks of free food and accommodation at a cost of $4000 that the rest of us, most on reduced wages, have paid for, and you are still fucking complaining.

          If you ever wanted a definition of an entitled arsehole then you are the perfect example. Fuck you.

          You should have stayed in Australia preferably Victoria.

          • observer

            Adrian, that is way out of line.

            • Adrian

              I have no problem with and wholly support the free provision of quarantine and isolation for the health of returning NZers but I have had a gutsful of the tiny minority's entitled and whining behaviour.

              • SPC

                He was yesterday explaining that he had not been called for testing (they were looking to test those who had left the managed isolation since June 9 without being tested, and had to make his own arrangments to be tested). He was actually helping them out, rather than whining.

                • JohnSelway

                  I'm entitled by going out of my way to make sure I am not an asymptomatic carrier…again, an interesting take on things

                  • Just Is

                    What? After 14 Days in isolation and zero symptoms you consider you may have the virus and would like to be checked to make sure, is that your beef?

                    The 14 Day Isolation period is the most important part of the process, if you were tested every day for seven consecutive days in row there would be no guarantee you don't have the virus, but because you were in Isolation for the full 14 days, without any symptoms during that period, you're deemed to be virus free.

                    • SPC

                      This was about someone making the effort to assist the government's own exercise in testing all those who left managed isolation without a test since June 9, given he had not been contacted.

                    • JohnSelway

                      I said below because of this my flatmate wasn't allowed into his office because I left isolation without being tested and without being contacted by the MoH – that was part of the reason

          • JohnSelway


            Simply amazing.

            • Adrian

              Yes, your behaviour is, along with all the other whiners. The vast majority of the country is sick of it.

              • observer

                You seem too angry to grasp a really basic difference here. Calm down and consider it, please.

                People in isolation complaining about their food are only thinking about what affects them.

                People complaining about not being tested are not. That affects all of us.

                Two very different issues. Not all "whiners".

                • Adrian

                  Observer, the first example of this was back in February when a symptom-free woman returning from a U.S holiday demanded a test at the border with a "don't you know who I am " attitude and promptly went to the media, and BTW she wasn’t actually anybody anyone knew outside her own echo chamber. It was in the Herald , I think. No surprises there.

                  Selway said earlier that he too was of to the media. People who don't know how lucky they are, are what piss me off when the rest of us have done the hard work over 3 months without complaining.

                  And for your and Selways information the tests are still only 65% accurate. That's why physically diagnosed cases are still running at 35%+ above tested ones. So he is complaining that he didn't get a grossly inferior product when the ONLY true test is 14 days symptom free in isolation/quarantine which he had completed.

                  • JohnSelway

                    If you read the last three days of me posting about this I haven't complained once. All I have done is told my story of isolation and having to get myself tested after MoH dropped the ball.

                    Read that again: I haven't complained once.

                    I've done all the right things and told my story here. That's fucking it. So fuck off buddy

                    Oh and –
                    ‘So he is complaining that he didn’t get a grossly inferior product when the ONLY true test is 14 days symptom free in isolation/quarantine which he had completed.”
                    *cough* asymptomatic transfer *cough*
                    *cough* 14 days mingling in a hotel with people at different levels of isolation *cough*

              • JohnSelway

                So it's my fault MoH didn't test 100's of people arriving at the border? And my behaviour in going to get myself tested of my own volition so I make sure I don't spread it to others in the community is that of an entitled arsehole?

                Interesting take

                • Adrian

                  There was no reason to test anybody at the border as your and everybody elses temperature was remotely taken at the border and far more information was known about you before you even got to the exit.

                  If you actually had read anything about the whys and wherefores of border testing you would realise that testing at the border can easily lead to dangerous assumptions of being infection free. If people have been in self isolation yet need to travel on crowded public transport and transit through terminals then a time period is essential for proper detection of only 65% of actual cases. The only fail safe test is 14 days symptom free even for asymptomatic cases.

                  You sound wilfully ignorant of the science around the Virus but a virulent Entitlement Syndrome victim.

                  • JohnSelway

                    Mmmm, yeah.


                  • SPC

                    This was about someone making the effort to assist the government's own exercise in testing all those who left managed isolation without a test since June 9, given he had not been contacted.

                    Your opine is better targeted with the Muller scare campaign belief in community transmission because of lack of the testing, and media amplification

            • Ad

              Don't worry about Adrian.

              Welcome home to the best and safest little country in the world.

              Do the whole Dave Dobbyn song every morning in your head.

          • SPC

            Us and them.

            Race, religion, gender, sexuality, political creed and birth citizen and other citizens/permanent residents/migrant workers/tourists.

            And of course a new one, those resident when a pandemic starts and those returning home during one.

            Thanks for sharing.

        • The Al1en

          Not being judgemental as, contrary to some commenters, it's a massive failure to let people leave a 14 day isolation without an all clear test, regardless of when the dates were imposed. Common sense dictates it, surely.

          Imagining myself in the same situation, I probably wouldn't have left without demanding a test (if none were given before), baring in mind a symptomatic carriers etc. Lucky for you and your recent contacts, you appear not to have it, and soon you'll have the result to prove it and peace of mind all round.

          • JohnSelway

            An issue with the tests though is they take 48 hours (as I was told today after having mine done) so you have a test 2 days before leaving the hotel but during those 2 days you might get exposed from someone else who just arrived while your busy checking out.

            They need better planning around separating new arrivals from old arrivals

            • The Al1en

              Ideally it would be a seperate bubble situation with no mingling at all, which would be harsh, but then no harsher than for all of us in level four lockdown.

              Failing that, the fourteen days should be sixteen, with the last two after a test in isolation.

            • SPC

              Yeah the risk is week one people meeting week two people (especially after the day 12 test).

              For mine the week one people should be kept in their rooms and thus kept separate from week 2 people.

            • McFlock

              Not really.

              The day 12 test should be a formality. Mostly just a backstop to confirm the isolation period. Meaning you'd expect next-to-fuckall positive results. If it comes back positive, they're out for a few hours. Sure, the contacts have to be tracked down, but no big harm.

              As opposed to three days of contacts if they get tested on departure, or maybe missing an exposure if they are tested on day 10 and they get it on day 13 because the iso is too lax.

              The fact is that the proof is in the pudding, and this pudding has left no covid in the community (even if Toddy Mu- Mu- Muuuuuu Corona can sense it using the Force).

              Fair play to your concerns, but you'll be ok. The test will hopefully put your mind at ease on that count.

          • SPC

            There was no testing of those in managed isolation (without symptoms) until June 9. And before managed isolation people were in self isolation for 2 weeks without a test.

            MOH determined that the risk of spread after 2 weeks in isolation was low.

            Of course the consequences goes up a lot at Level 1, so with that move to testing is to be extra safe.

            • The Al1en

              Yeah, I know, and it's still a slack way of doing it. The process was flawed, but at least it should be sorted now.

        • francesca

          I wouldn't worry too much John after the length of time thats elapsed.Isolation is way more important than testing.

          Its the numbers here that are important

          Zero in ICU

          Zero in hospital

          Zero community transmission

          Zero additional deaths

          All new cases in managed facilities

          Just be careful , wash your hands etc , if you continue to be worried that theres been a shambolic approach .

          Despite the media beatup its the stats that do the talking

      • SPC 17.1.2

        They brought in tests from June 9 for those on day 3 and day 12.

        June 9th was his 13th day and June 10 was his 14th day.

        The lack of testing is all really about those who arrived before June 9th.

        • JohnSelway

          No not quite – I had to stay an extra night so technically the 9th was my 14th day but I had trouble getting transport back to Wellington so they kept me another night because they didn't want me crashing at a friends in Auckland then heading to Wellington because they wanted to know where I was going next was where I would be staying for the next 14 days

          • SPC

            That might be why you were not on a list for being called in for testing – seen as one at the June 9 cusp.

            • JohnSelway

              I don't know – everyone I have spoken to on the phone and at the testing station seemed to think I had been called already by the MoH but nope. They have all my details so the ball was dropped somewhere. S'all good though – I picked the ball up 🙂

    • observer 17.2

      Glad you are all right.

      But it shows the basic difference between health care and health politics. Obviously you should have been tested in isolation, and that's a failing. But 16 days after isolation, and with no symptoms – a doctor would say you don't need a test.

      Unfortunately test numbers have now become a political measure, a stat like inflation or unemployment or whatever. Over 80,000 tests in past 2 weeks, people queuing for hours in their cars (and statistically in more danger from the road they're queuing on). Massive over-reaction.

      • JohnSelway 17.2.1

        I got tested for the sake of everyone else really. I actually saw my doctor yesterday and he said not to bother but thought I would do the right thing. Which, according to Adrian, makes me an entitled asshole.

        EDIT: Oh yeah – my flatmates work said he couldn’t come back to the office unless I was tested so I did it for him too

        • aj

          my clusterfuck….

          an omni-shambles….

          Not sure if there is any central control….

          And despite all this we have no community transmission, only imported cases being caught at the border, level one controls that permit an almost normal social and economic life, and are probably the safest place in the world. Oh, perhaps not, the Antipodes Islands will be safer.

          So many countries would give everything for a clusterfuck, an omnishambles, or the lack of central control you describe.

        • RedBaronCV

          Thanks from me- doing the right thing is never wrong

        • Patricia Bremner

          Better "Safe than sorry" But you could have done this quietly without unjustified accusations along National's attack lines.

          • JohnSelway

            I don't know what Nationals attack lines even are – I am just telling you my experience. Individual results may vary

  18. SPC 18

    Shaw is celebrating the RMA amendment that allows environmentally-damaging projects to be refused.

    The amendment to the Resource Management Act closes a loophole which allowed consent for new builds without consideration for the environment.


  19. RedBaronCV 19


    Dear Greg Foran,

    The problem we have is not with the aircrew it is with you. We understand that it is stressful laying over in a disease ridden state before flying back with a bunch of potentially disease ridden people and then potentially going back into the community. You then note that the reduction in flying hours had hurt the crew financially. You are supposed to be a top flight manager. You actually appear to have the vision and flight capacity of a dodo.

    Which bit of the following could you not manage:

    asking for crew to indicate where personal circumstances are more favourable to managing some isolation.

    rostering a crew for 1-2 USA flights followed by isolation ( maybe at home) then less rigorous routes – to share the social burden.

    getting some of that fashionable full hazmat gear singapore airlines have managed plus a dedicated crew toilet facility. ( even if you take a few less paying passengers)

    making sure crew bear no financial penalty by topping up wages for non flying but isolation time. A deduction from your own over large salary which you are clearly not earning should make this a neutral exercise.

    Lastly but not least – lockdown and associated costs have cost the NZ taxpayer around $30 billion plus so far as well as large social and emotional costs. Any penny pinching by you shows a complete lack of vision or engagement in the wider economy or welfare of the country. Can you remedy this please by making sure that salary deduction is sufficient to bring your annual income into line with the minimum wage.


    This NZ taxpayer

    PS Could I also recommend that you read Richard III by shakespeare. “For the want of a nail a kingdom was lost”.


  20. greywarshark 20

    The Telegraph advises about UK getting air bridges agreements with certain other countries. They must be pretty desperate over there. Of course they are getting near their summer break when they could go somewhere warm by the sea. But they have had 30 degrees lately I think in UK so why not encourage people to holiday within their bubble now that they are out of Brexit and Europe and want to make UK great somehow, by hook or by crook. Do they think they can have their cake and eat it too? Build UK up and spend somewhere else – I wonder if it is the wealthy feeling that Europe was stopping them from having everything they thought they wanted.


    "Air bridges" with a series of short-haul destinations are set to be unveiled at the weekend as the Government plots a three-stage approach to revive flying.

    The first tranche of bridges are expected to be with popular "low-risk" holiday destinations including France, Italy, Spain, Greece and Germany, largely to "re-fire" the Mediterranean tourist industry from July 4, according to sources.

    Portugal is not expected to be included after its spike in coronavirus rates, but the bridges mean people going on holiday to the other destinations will not be required to quarantine for 14 days on their return to the UK.

    Ministers hope the plan will enable families to start planning Mediterranean summer breaks to the most popular destinations this weekend….

  21. Chris T 21

    Forgive me if already mentioned, but see the Governer General has sent the Scott Watson case back to the court of appeal.

    Personally don’t know enough about it atm to make a proper comment, but will read up.


    • Barfly 21.1

      The razor cut in the evidence bag with the female victims hair in it was a bit "Arthur Allen Thomas cartridge case" to me – plus the photograph used for identification versus Watson's appearance on the evening was very funky. The water taxi driver swearing Watson wasn't the bloke that was with the victims…well…..

      • I Feel Love 21.1.1

        Def a bit murky this one, no harm in appeal, I'm amazed he was convicted on SFA evidence but so it goes.

  22. aom 22

    Here we go again! Passengers from South Korea are being isolated in a Wellington hotel so it is time for a few reporters to stir the pot: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/121954765/coronavirus-returnees-from-korea-arrive-in-wellington-for-14day-isolation. Since there is a school across the road parents must be warned to be concerned, even though there is little chance of children being within 2 metres of anyone who is symptomatic. Parents were advised of the situation, but not days in advance as the media seems to think is necessary. Perhaps the logic of the reporters centres on wanting more time to report on the pre-emptive protest activities of the self-entitled that they attempt to stir up. Of course, any reporter worth his or her salt will make enquiries of the 'affected'. Good job Bryce Edwards, the political scientist who seems to have lost his opinion column gig at the Guardian was available and has two children at the school. The whole stir-up appears to have had the big yawn from the school principal though, judging by her comments. Best of all was the real 'grown-up', a delightful girl with an incandescent smile standing at the hotel entrance with her 'Welcome home. Be kind to everyone' sign.

    • Chris T 22.1

      Was there any comments on why they have to be housed in a 5 star hotel, when there are a shit load of empty Halls of Residence up the road at the uni?

      Or does the coalition not consider things like that?

      • Peter 22.1.1

        Contact them and ask them, then let us know.

        Generally people employed do what they need to do, consult, make decisions and proceed on the information they have. Quite often out here in computer land we know better.

        • Chris T

          The unis have no foreign students in the halls. And are losing money like water.

          The govt needs to house people in isolation.

          It is not the hardest thing in the world to see an opportunity to work with each other.

          But appreciate Hipkins seems to have his vendetta against them.

      • Gabby 22.1.2

        Wouldn't be surprised if the hotel was cheaper.

        • Chris T


          Yes because 200 odd dollars a night is cheaper than a week.

          • Gabby

            You know what the halls of residence would charge?

          • The Al1en

            Hotel can't be that busy if there's plane loads of arrivals getting booked in, so I'd imagine occupancy levels were pretty low, with no foreign tourists to fill the vacant rooms.

            Aren't you nat types supposedly wanting the government to look after the hospitality industry? So it follows the national parties concern li(n)es are, in fact, not crocodile tears but more like regular bull shit.

            Good to get the insight straight from the blue donkey's arse.

            • Chris T

              Get back to me when you can justify putting them in 5 star hotels.

              • The Al1en

                How many kiwi families are being supported by the wages these government funded returnees are paying, do you reckon? And not just the hotel staff, but all the support services, like laundry, food suppliers, delivery drivers, etc. And then the shops these people spend their money in etc.

                You blue outrage types – Anything for a pearl clutch 🙄


            • McFlock


              these are the rules:

              a tory makes an assumption based on reckons of what happens when an industry is healthy (e.g. the ministry is paying full sticker price on every room, there are no students in any hall of residence);

              the lefty must play along and pretend that the assumption is true, and that no government entity e.g. did anything close to a responsible assessment of available resources;

              the lefty must then provide copies of the actual correspondence and receipts in order to disprove the tory's half-arsed reckons.

              Apparently HoR are all higher security than a five-star hotel, and have expansive suites rather than a bed, a desk, and a closet.

              FWIW, I've been in HoR (aka "residential colleges" now – they provide academic support) rooms and hotel rooms, and the closest hotel room to a HoR I've been in was a youth hostel.

              Maybe we could iso people like a freaking monk for two weeks for cheaper, but then also maybe the ministry went "nice place, you're looking as 0-5% capacity for the next six months if you're lucky, wanna cut us a rate?"

              • The Al1en

                You can tell he's worried by all the panic posting yes

              • Chris T


                Nice try. But doesn't justify 5 star hotels.

                • McFlock

                  The assumption of someone getting five star service is fueling your outrage today? fascinating.

                  • Chris T

                    I'm not outraged about anything.

                    Just questioning the option of subsidizing massive corporate hotels when there are a lot of small time owned ones.

                    Or empty uni HoR

                    • McFlock

                      Assuming the govt isn't getting a decent discount.

                      And assuming the halls are empty (many aren't).

                      And assuming it's not a false economy to try to run an effective program of isolation if you're bussing a plane load to 20 different boutique locally-owned bed and breakfasts rather than finding a place that can take a planeload at a time.

                      But keep "questioning". Your financial inefficiency detector is probably about the same class as Muller's community spread detector: pessimistic and not based on anything in reality.

                    • Chris T []

                      Do you have a link to the govt showing they are getting a discount?

                    • McFlock


                      asking for links to disprove your half-arsed assumptions?


                      a tory makes an assumption based on reckons of what happens when an industry is healthy (e.g. the ministry is paying full sticker price on every room, there are no students in any hall of residence);

                      the lefty must play along and pretend that the assumption is true, and that no government entity e.g. did anything close to a responsible assessment of available resources;

                      the lefty must then provide copies of the actual correspondence and receipts in order to disprove the tory's half-arsed reckons.

                      Fucking playbook.

                      Apparently, even if you're absolutely pedantic about not having a discount, you can still end up paying half price.

                      How about you discover the govt was actually paying exhorbitant fees before you get all mouth-foamy again.

                • The Al1en

                  It doesn't have to justify anything you're pretending to be bothered about, but it does provide your fake outrage some context.

                  No cut through here, private. Fall out.

              • Chris T


                Corporate welfare

      • aom 22.1.3

        It seems there aren't small minded neighbours who would rather see the hotel boarded up and the staff without jobs. Besides, are the halls of residence empty and able to be serviced appropriately for isolation? The answers appear to be 'No' and 'No'.

      • weka 22.1.4

        Was there any comments on why they have to be housed in a 5 star hotel, when there are a shit load of empty Halls of Residence up the road at the uni?

        Or does the coalition not consider things like that?

        Aren't HoR communal?

        You want people to actually stay in their rooms and be comfortable enough to do that, HoRs (from memory) are designed for young people who spend most of their time in class or socialising.

        • Chris T

          Half are like any hotel room and have catering.

        • McFlock

          it's total bollocks.

          I've been in at least half a dozen HoR around UniOtago and a couple in wellington (work related, usually). Most are one bed, one desk, and showers/toilets down the hall (lol exaclty what you want when you're worried someone has a disease that causes the runs). Communal lounge, dining room, maybe a gym and tennis court.

          And the cheapest hotel/motel I've been in that wasn't a hostel or camp ground was a room with a large bed, desk, TV, fridge, kichenette, and en suite. Prospect of some manner of bug or fungus quite high in the cheapest places though.

          The bonus to a hotel beyond the basics is that they usually have commercial kitchens and conference facilities, so medics can work in the facilities and the kitchens can do the room service on a large scale.

          What the real whinge seems to be about is the assumption that moh, on some of the hotels, is paying five star prices – a gripe for which there is no evidence whatsoever. Which is funny, because didn't john banks say he didn't think he was being bribed/influenced/whatever because nobody pays sticker prices for hotel stays? lol

          • weka

            That's what I would have thought. Some of the Ak one's have an ensuite but they still look small and designed to be used with communal spaces.

            room map at the bottom of the page.


            • weka

              not sure why they haven't used motels though, giving people the option to cook their own food (I'd be pretty grumpy with catered food by the end of 14 days). I'm guessing hotels are easier to manage and keep an eye on large numbers of people.

              Really hoping they're doing right by families with kids, and disabled people.

            • McFlock

              Now, Otago might be a bit different to some of the other unis (if you read Critic over lockdown lol) but I do know they had students resident in colleges all the way through L4 and onwards. They're only just in the midyear break atm.

              For that reason I'd suspect HoR would be more likely to have some occupancy all the way through than any hotel.

              • weka

                That's my understanding too (Otago Uni students had the choice to stay or not. Not sure how they managed the distancing etc, but I assume there were protocols).

                • McFlock

                  There were schedulled mealtimes (e.g. floor by floor) in one hall a mate works at, but dealing with freshers is like herding cats. An earnest effort was made though 🙂

          • Just Is

            The final nail in Chris's argument cofin

            • McFlock

              He's only asking questions.

              • aom

                Yes, but what about the real 'grown-up', a delightful girl with an incandescent smile who was standing at the hotel entrance with her 'Welcome home. Be kind to everyone' sign. She is worth a hundred ChrisT's and any other fucker that thinks NZ citizens should come home to be isolated in cardboard boxes with meals of cold gruel, along with people from the service industries who don't have useful jobs because some half-arsed fucker thinks the Government shouldn't do cheap accommodation deals in hotels.

  23. Molly 23

    I have previously expressed concerns about the way that Fees Free was implemented, and find myself still frustrated on this.

    There was an article recently that said that the uptake for students from lower deciles was lower than expected.

    A primary reason for this is that if any student had made use of any Youth Guarantee programme that runs on the NZ Qualification Framework, that adds up to more than 60 credits, they are ineligible for Fees Free.

    This means that any student that has used an alternative pathway to tertiary study, will find that that pathway, delivered apathetically and worth – at most $2,500 – will not only not have provided the prerequisites for more academic study, but will have made them ineligible for Fees Free for Level 4 study in a tertiary institution.


    1. The NZQF framework is run parallel to the NZQA framework, but is regarded and delivered with a substantial amount of scorn and disregard in comparison. However, a NZQF course for over 60 credits – at Level 3 (secondary school level) – makes you ineligible. (Many attend these courses as a requirement of WINZ, which raises a whole raft of issues in terms of quality of delivery and engagement).

    2. Alternative pathways through Open Polytechnic that provide literacy and numeracy credits that can be used as pre-requisites for tertiary study, used to be available for free. They are still available but if utilised also make you ineligible for the first year of study Fees Free.

    Fees Free as it is – precludes many from being able to access it. Particularly those it said it aimed to assist.

    A badly designed and implemented policy. It needs comprehensive review and improvement.

  24. Gabby 24

    Rob not making a great fist of explaining why Rodney got 'set free'. Todmunter will pronounce the dumping to be Disgraceful.

  25. Eco Maori 26

    Kia Ora


    It is always sad when there are whale standings

    We do need to protect our sharks and the taonga Mako shark

    The Electric Truck will be awesome

    Ka kite Ano.

  26. Searing new clip from the Lincoln Project. It's hard to fathom the morality void that is Trump, but TLP is on point

  27. Eco Maori 28

    Kia Ora


    That's a good way to flip the bird

    That's a good move getting people coming into Aotearoa to wear PPE gear.

    That's awesome the whale has made its way back to sea.

    Ka kite Ano.

  28. Eco Maori 29

    Kia Ora

    Te Ao Maori Marama

    We have to look after our Awa.

    Ka kite Ano

  29. Eco Maori 30

    Kia Ora

    The Am Show.

    I think it's a good idea slowing traffic down to 30 klm in the Auckland city centre.

    That's is cool using virtual reality to help train people.

    Most Researchers do good mahi.

    Global warming is affecting our weather.

    Did you believe that line.

    What about the Phenomenon of creating it out of nothing and changing us heaps for something that cost them nothing.

    Ka kite Ano.

  30. Eco Maori 31

    Kia Ora

    Te Ao Maori Marama.

    Kiwis are over being slaved by dairy farmers.

    The Waitangi tribunal findings are great.

    Ka kite Ano

  31. Eco Maori 32

    Kia Ora

    The Am Show.

    No one can find that spanner that was thrown in the works.

    Plastic and alcohol free July That's great 2 products use that needs to be minimized.

    Ka kite Ano.

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