Open mike 26/08/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 26th, 2021 - 214 comments
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214 comments on “Open mike 26/08/2021 ”

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  1. Stephen D 1
    26 August 2021 at 6:23 am

    Trouble at t’mill.

    Todays Herald. Thomas Coughlan writes.

    “Collins was unhappy with the way some MPs had publicly suggested they were less than supportive of the caucus’ decision to vote against a ban on conversion therapy.

    Collins allegedly unloaded on one of the most high-profile detractors, Covid-19 spokesman Chris Bishop.

    Bishop, with Nicola Willis and Erica Stanford, is considered a standardbearer of the caucus’ liberal wing.

    One source told the Herald that Collins “completely lost it” at Bishop. Another source described her tirade as “f***ing ballistic”.

    It was said to be the most tense caucus meeting of Collins’ reign. Stanford was allegedly given an unsparing dressing down for being upset over the way the vote played out.

    The MPs had disagreed with National’s decision to bloc vote against a ban on conversion therapy, which happened the week prior.”

    Oh dear, oh dear, what a shame, what a pity.

    Is Aotearoa really a Christian Conservative country? National are heading down a blind alley with this sort of policy.

    • roblogic 1.1
      26 August 2021 at 10:29 am

      National have correctly identified that they can split the Labour vote on identity politics stuff. There is a significant constituency of religious or conservative voters who went Labour because of Jacinda's leadership. But Labour should not take that for granted. The conversion therapy "ban" is another identitarian effort to undermine democratic freedoms (along with hate speech & transgender self-ID). Highly questionable legislation and the framing in the media is incredibly one sided.

      https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2021/08/17/will-gay-conversion-becomes-jacindas-anti-smacking-curse/

      • Anker 1.1.1
        26 August 2021 at 10:52 am

        100% Roblogic.

        National are right to. realize this. And again I point to the MInister of Justices interview that suggested rugby coaches and parents could be covered under the converstion therapy bill.

        You are 100 % correct about the framing in the media being one sided. The gender self id bill is being introduced under the radar. Most people I talk to about it (and my friends are mostly politically aware) have not heard of it.

        Erica Standford has put Jan Tinetti to shame in her speech in parliament about the bill. She gave a balanced speech where it was clear she was considering both sides. Unlike the Minister of Women who wouldn’t listen to a feminist group.

        She talked about reading every email people had sent her, including from parents who are concerned about the rapid onset decision of their teens to identify as members of the opposite sex. And some of the experiences of these parents being told that automatically have to affirn the new gender. Despite people refuting on this site that kids under sixteen are getting puberty blockers, a Listener article at the end of June gave at least two examples of a 13 year old and a 14 year old being prescribed these drugs. In this article there was also the case of a 23 year who was given a masectomy at 16 and a hysterectomy at 18 years old and now regretted this.

        This is part of gender ideology that is sweeping the Western World and the self id and Conversion Bill are part of this. There is significant back lash now in the UK.

        Unfortunately NZ hasn't seemed to learn from their mistakes.

        • I Feel Love 1.1.1.1
          26 August 2021 at 11:06 am

          Bollocks. Conversion Therapy is evil & should be banned. National & Ani & the Tamakis are wrong & shame on anyone supporting Conversion Therapy.

          • Red Blooded One 1.1.1.1.1
            26 August 2021 at 11:11 am

            100% yes

          • joe90 1.1.1.1.2
            26 August 2021 at 11:18 am

            +++

          • roblogic 1.1.1.1.3
            26 August 2021 at 11:34 am

            5 year jail terms for parents teaching their children traditional ethics is overkill. Non coercive faith based counselling is being pointlessly endangered in the middle of a mental health crisis. Because of a stupid woke crusade against something that is already illegal.

            • McFlock 1.1.1.1.3.1
              26 August 2021 at 1:11 pm

              Whether they get the full five years depends entirely on how they're "teaching their children traditional ethics".

              • roblogic …
                26 August 2021 at 1:15 pm

                Child abuse and assault are already illegal. Legislation like this is a license for harassment

                • McFlock …
                  26 August 2021 at 1:24 pm

                  Among other things, it's a prohibition against harrassment by parents and other people with social or economic power over another person.

                  "Conversion therapy" is quackery that can kill. Fuck your traditional ethics.

                • Populuxe1 …
                  26 August 2021 at 2:55 pm

                  The exact nature of this particular form of coercive psychological abuse, while recognised by medical authorities, is not recognised in the extant child abuse and assault legislation. Nor, thanks to ACC, do we have the option of suing for medical malpractice because that's exactly how conversion therapy is regarded by reputable medical agencies.
                  Try again.

                  • roblogic …
                    26 August 2021 at 3:18 pm

                    & how many cases of this malpractice are there? who is doing it?

                    This is a law that does nothing but create division and acrimony and alienate half of Labour's base.

                    • Populuxe1 …
                      26 August 2021 at 3:23 pm

                      It doesn't just apply to psychological therapy, it also applies to organised religion and there are countless LGBT people raised in religious families who could explain to you exactly what goes on with the sanction of the Catholic Church and LDS without even starting on outfits like Gloriavale.

                    • roblogic …
                      26 August 2021 at 3:33 pm

                      similar legislation elsewhere in the world is rightly restricted to professional practice… the new zealand version is Orwellian in its policing of families and churches… i expect to see an outbreak of vexatious accusations after this law is passed

                    • Stuart Munro …
                      26 August 2021 at 6:29 pm

                      Agreed – ill-conceived and at odds with comparable law around the world. Whoever drafted it omitted the 'reasonable citizen' test.

                    • roblogic …
                      26 August 2021 at 8:07 pm

                      It's bad law based on false premise designed to coerce/enforce a particular belief structure. And it's surrounded by bad faith arguments. The coercion is not coming from the churches but those who want to use the power of the State to subjugate dissent.

              • Anker …
                26 August 2021 at 1:32 pm

                Oh so McFlock you are ok with a lesser sentence for parents who say to their gender dysphoria teen, "hold on, lets wait, lets try to understand what is going on that you feel you are a different gender". Thats a big choice to make and you need to be an adult so you can make the best choice for you. Once you make that choice if you go through with medical treatment it might be hard to change. Now tell me about what lead to you feeling you were the other gender?"

                And later on telling the child that they need to give it more time and that you will support them when they are an adult if they want to transition. And that a lot of people are unhappy with their bodies when they are teenagers.

                • McFlock …
                  26 August 2021 at 1:41 pm

                  I'm okay with judges applying sentences up to the maximum in proportion with the specific crimes' relationship to the maximum possible severity of commission, multiple offences, and so on. You know, the usual judicial practise.

                  I don't even agree with mandatory minimum sentences for crimes, let alone a mandatory maximum.

                  • weka …
                    26 August 2021 at 1:44 pm

                    will the legislation allow for people that use affirmation only models to be charged for transitioning lesbians who later detransition?

                  • Anker …
                    26 August 2021 at 1:45 pm

                    But you haven't really answered my question McFlock. Would the hypothetical scenario I outlined, which I think is a fairly realistic one, constitute grounds for a visit from the police? A possible prosecution? Would it constittue the need for the Attorney General to cast their eyes over it?

                    • McFlock …
                      26 August 2021 at 1:59 pm

                      If the cops get involved, who called them? Unlikely to be the parents. So maybe the teen is asking for help getting the care they actually want.

                      And if any person calls the cops for help, the cops should turn up and ask questions, no? And that might lead to a referral to AG. I'd be surprised, if your hypothetical parents werre actually as calm and reasonable about it as you portray, that it will get that far. But if it did and a jury found them guilty, then I'd be happy if they did not receive five years imprisonment for their actions. So to answer your specific made-up scenario, yes I would be ok with the judge handing down a sentence of less than five years.

                      Heck, I might even be ok with a discharge without conviction, depending on how the teen feels about it all.

                    • Populuxe1 …
                      26 August 2021 at 3:03 pm

                      Who exactly is calling the police in this scenario? The child? Or has the child seen a doctor? Has there been a medical referral?

          • Rosemary McDonald 1.1.1.1.4
            26 August 2021 at 11:51 am

            "Conversion Therapy"…aka "pray or talk the gay away" and "watchful waiting" for gender dysphoric children are two completely different things.

            Two completely different things.

            As critics of those with serious concerns about this Bill would know were they to wander slightly outside their bubbles and echo chambers.

            Or are you being deliberately ignorant? Are you genuinely comfortable with medical and surgical interventions for otherwise physically healthy children who in all probability just going through a phase?

            • arkie 1.1.1.1.4.1
              26 August 2021 at 11:53 am

              Are you genuinely comfortable with medical and surgical interventions for otherwise physically healthy children who in all probability just going through a phase?

              Yes

              • Molly …
                26 August 2021 at 12:58 pm

                Yes.

                Are you being sarcastic or just ignorant?

                As someone who has had 'top surgery' and is taking ongoing hormone suppression therapies, it is not something I would recommend for young people. I ask myself, why would anyone?

                Given the added impact on fertility, and negligible improvement in mental health outcomes it makes me wonder if this village raising the child is made up of idiots.

                It is appropriate to avoid permanent harm for many, until a person has the brain development and maturity to choose medical interventions for themselves as an adult.

                • Rosemary McDonald …
                  26 August 2021 at 1:22 pm

                  …it makes me wonder if this village raising the child is made up of idiots.

                  Do you think that perhaps the same folks advocating for what amounts to vivisection on teenagers are the same ones who claim that human brains do not mature until our late twenties?

                  If you're in you mid to late 20s and still struggling to feel like a fully fledged "adult", don't stress – because according to science you only truly become a "grown up" in your 30s.

                  While in the eyes of the law, you're classed as an adult at 18, brain experts say this idea is "increasingly absurd".

                  In fact they note that the path to become an adult is different for each person, with some people becoming mentally mature much faster than others.

                  I find it quite distressing that some are happy to take that gamble that a particular young person has completed the maturation process and is capable of consenting to medical and surgical transitioning.

                  There's no going back.

                • left for dead …
                  27 August 2021 at 6:26 am

                  yes yes to Molly's last three sentences.

            • Red Blooded One 1.1.1.1.4.2
              26 August 2021 at 12:53 pm

              But what if it is not "just a phase". If I'm not mistaken there are many hoops to be jumped through before a person can transition, Time periods, Councillors, Doctors etc. It is not as simple as a child waking up one day and going against their parents wishes. Many years ago I worked in a crisis centre in Auckland and met some lovely but sad Trans Women who had no choice, at that time, but to wait, or maybe never receive surgery that would've made their life complete. There was no amount of Make-up that could be applied to hide the masculinity that these women couldn't erase. My best wishes go to parents struggling to come to terms with the fact their children may not be all they hoped they will be, but my ❤ goes to the person genuinely trying to be who they believe they are.

              • Molly …
                26 August 2021 at 1:07 pm

                Go and have a look. I don't want to direct you, but search for studies that look at the persistence of gender dysphoria as compared to same sex attraction.

                Although, a small percentage will persist, how do we ensure that permanent harm or consequences don't occur for those that don't?

                When we can define that, we can write appropriate legislation. At present, we are using the history of gay conversion therapy as impetus for a different cohort of young people.

                There is also a concerted push for an affirmation only approach, which makes a wait and watch response difficult if not impossible.

              • Anker …
                26 August 2021 at 1:35 pm

                Red Blooded One a fair question "what if it is not a phase……..Then that person when they are able to understand the consequences of their decision and have had the opportunity to fully explore it with good, non directive therapy, must absolutely be supported to transition. No question about that.

                • Molly …
                  26 August 2021 at 1:39 pm

                  Agree.

                • Joanne Perkins …
                  27 August 2021 at 9:17 am

                  The problem, Anker, is that if left until the age you apparently think is ok for a person to make a decision an awful lot of hormonal activity as happened that will have caused the development of secondary characteristics such as body hair, voice changes etc that are as equally irreversible as surgical interventions. Thus the use of puberty blockers which certainly are reversible, you just stop taking them, But then you don't approve of them either so what are we left with that would satisfy your apparent desire to control the lives of people you don't even know? I suspect nothing. I transitioned late and I can tell that body hair and voice changes do not help a person who is struggling with gender dysphoria and are a big part of suicidal ideation in such people.

              • weka …
                26 August 2021 at 1:43 pm

                I think you might be mistaken RBO, partly at least. I don't think it's as bad in NZ, but there is good reason to be cautious about the affirmation only approach taken by a wide range of professional people (counsellors/psychiatrists), schools, medical practitioners and so on). This is where a young person (child or teen) presents either with mental health issues based around gender, or presents with gender non-conformity (eg young girl wants to wear trousers, cut hair short, play with the boys and the boys' toys and is then affirmed as being a trans boy, I kid you not). The idea is that the adults around the child or teen must affirm the child/teens gender identity or the young person will be harmed.

                This has led to increasing numbers of young women having radical surgeries to transition and them later realising they're not trans but are instead (lesbian) women. Please stop and think that through.

                The Tavistock Clinic in the UK uses this model and is unable to present statistics on success. It also fails to treat those teens for other mental health issues such as abuse, eating disorders. Please stop and think that through as well. They're medicating and putting kids on a transition path to radical surgery and hormones without looking at the whole picture.

                In some places there is enormous pressure on practitioners to use the affirmation model.

                Look up the Keira Bell case in the UK. Start listening to the stories of detrans people. None of this is new and it's not hard to find. Happy to provide links if you need them.

                None of that precludes trans people needing to be protected from people in authority trying to suppress or convert their transness. But it looks like there is a clear conflict here, in that the Greens and Labour are unwilling to look at the conversion therapy of young women including lesbians described above. That ideological position leads to bad law.

                • Red Blooded One …
                  26 August 2021 at 2:11 pm

                  Thanks Weka and Anker for your considered comments. I'm not disputing anything you are saying but I just wanted to highlight my limited experience and remembering the sadness that went with the Ladies I met who would have loved to have not waited and have to hide their masculinity every day. As I've mentioned before, I know of a friends Grand daughter who is transitioning and is now a beautiful feminine woman and I know she had to take quite some time of supervision of her decision from professionals before being allowed to start the process. Hopefully she will always be happy with her decision and when she looks in the mirror isn't confronted with the masculinity that would have developed if she was forced to wait till adulthood. I'm not, and don't want to be a spokesperson for the trans community I will just retell my limited exposure to them when catchphrases I dislike are thrown around. Regards

                  • Questioning …
                    8 September 2021 at 2:13 pm

                    The problem with puberty blockers for young men is that their genitalia do not develop and so although their outer presentation is more feminine, there is less material to work with if they wish to have surgery to make a neovagina and often end up having to use part of the colon which apparently often gives a nasty smell and is not ideal.

                    Also, what is meant by conversion therapy? Many commenters mention same-sex attraction, however do not seem to be aware that the youth support agencies (eg Rainbow Youth and Inside/Out) define homosexuality as being "same-gender" attracted. Am just being naive in feeling that this is in itself a form of conversion therapy – as according to their definitions there is no longer a valid sexuality that involves same-sex attraction. According to some people, same-sex attraction is transphobic. (Note that homosexuality is not mentioned in the bill – only sexuality and gender identity/gender expression). In fact, I cannot see any support agencies for young people that provide support for same-sex attracted youth. Perhaps someone could enlighten me?

              • weka …
                26 August 2021 at 1:47 pm

                But what if it is not "just a phase".

                The only way I can see to protect both trans people and people being transed institutionally from conversion therapy is to have an open discussion about all of it. Labour and the Greens have failed to facilitate that. It's shockingly bad.

                We can protect everyone, those going through a phase, those who really do need to transition to whatever degree.

                • Populuxe1 …
                  26 August 2021 at 3:16 pm

                  The only way I can see to protect both trans people and people being transed institutionally from conversion therapy is to have an open discussion about all of it.

                  "transed"? Jesus. Look, I appreciate you have a point of view, but that sort of language is just dehumanising. If it's something that people need protected from, then you ban it. That's really all the compelling argument you need. The current proposed legislation sets the bar high enough in my layperson's opinion that affirmation therapy isn't impacted. That said, case by case, if affirmation therapy isn't enough or proves inappropriate for an individual, it is very much parental neglect to rule out transition on medical advice.

                  Labour and the Greens have failed to facilitate that. It's shockingly bad.

                  That's what the consultation phase is for, surely? Did you make a submission?

                  • weka …
                    26 August 2021 at 5:29 pm

                    I haven't made a submission. I haven't even read the Bill yet, nor a range of explanations. Like many people I've got a full plate, and it's a very complex area to understand.

                    It's not what consultation is for. Labour and the Greens should be leading on the detrans issues. Why aren't they?

                    "transed"? Jesus. Look, I appreciate you have a point of view, but that sort of language is just dehumanising. If it's something that people need protected from, then you ban it. That's really all the compelling argument you need. The current proposed legislation sets the bar high enough in my layperson's opinion that affirmation therapy isn't impacted. That said, case by case, if affirmation therapy isn't enough or proves inappropriate for an individual, it is very much parental neglect to rule out transition on medical advice.

                    I don't actually understand what you are saying there, which makes me wonder if you didn't understand my comment.

                    If a young teen girl with mental health issues presents to the health system saying they're a boy, and an affirmation only model is being used (with no other exploration of mental health or gender non-conformity other than trans), and that person is affirmed as a boy and given puberty blockers and later hormone therapy and radical surgery, and then in their early 20s comes to realise that they're not a boy but a GNC lesbian and so detranses, was their health care a form of conversion therapy?

                    If you don't like the words transed, what word would you use for what the system is doing to that girl?

                    • Morrissey …
                      26 August 2021 at 5:32 pm

                      If a young teen girl with mental health issues presents to the health system saying they're [sic] a boy…

                      Surely, weka, that should read: "If a young teen girl with mental health issues presents to the health system saying she's a boy…"

                    • weka …
                      26 August 2021 at 5:41 pm

                      I don't have a problem with teens trying on trans identity (although I think there should be limits where that impacts on others).

                    • McFlock …
                      26 August 2021 at 6:45 pm

                      If a young teen girl with mental health issues presents to the health system saying they're a boy, and an affirmation only model is being used (with no other exploration of mental health or gender non-conformity other than trans), and that person is affirmed as a boy and given puberty blockers and later hormone therapy and radical surgery, and then in their early 20s comes to realise that they're not a boy but a GNC lesbian and so detranses, was their health care a form of conversion therapy?

                      How does your example get covered by the current proposed definition?

                      Besides the exemption criterion of "a health service provided by a health practitioner in accordance with their scope of practice", of course. Because I'm not even sure it would count as "performed with the intention of changing or suppressing the individual’s sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression." (my italics)

            • Nic the NZer 1.1.1.1.4.3
              26 August 2021 at 1:22 pm

              There is an interesting interview up on 'Benjamin A Boyce' you tube channel with a father and his autistic son. They describe Canadas anti conversion therapy laws as requiring therapy to practice affirmation. The rest of the story is about how father refused the unhelpful and confusing (for an autist) therapy and found some helpful therapy (which has helped). This also seems to be what is made illegal if Chris Faafoi is being interviewed on the topic.

          • solkta 1.1.1.1.5
            26 August 2021 at 11:54 am

            Yip, and double shame on those who oppose gay conversion therapy while supporting gender conversion therapy.

            • Rosemary McDonald 1.1.1.1.5.1
              26 August 2021 at 1:29 pm

              ….and double shame on those who oppose gay conversion therapy while supporting gender conversion therapy.

              Perhaps you could tell us what you mean by "gender conversion therapy"?

            • weka 1.1.1.1.5.2
              26 August 2021 at 1:34 pm

              who is supporting gender conversion therapy? Can you please give some examples so we know what you are referring to?

          • Molly 1.1.1.1.6
            26 August 2021 at 12:43 pm

            There is a difficulty here with conflating gay conversion therapy, with therapy as a whole. This is especially important to remember when dealing with children, teens and young adults.

            If a child presents with body dysmorphia such as anorexia, then we would hope some investigation would go into why this disconnect has developed before a diagnosis is made and a course of treatment proposed. This is appropriate and best practice..

            If a child presents with same sex-attraction, we know from a wealth of studies that this attraction would most likely remain throughout their life. The appropriate treatment does not require any pharmaceutical or medical intervention, but may need an individual program of counselling and support, depending on that person's living environment, religious and/or cultural beliefs.

            So far, so good.

            Now, we come to gender dysphoria, which has the following differences from same sex attraction:

            1. Studies show that up to 86 per cent of teens with gender dysphoria, will lose that dysphoria by their mid-twenties, usually after an acknowledgement of same sex attraction,

              2, There is a fairly recent and quantifiable emergence of Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria which most notably presents in cohorts of teenage girls, which can resolve, once again with acknowledgement of same sex attraction. There are studies looking into heavy social media use, and the impact this has on a multiple number of self identification, esteem and mental health outcomes.

            2. Many countries that have adopted a gender affirmation policy, have used same sex attraction conversion therapy as their evidence of harm, while ignoring the difference between persistence of same sex attraction and gender identification.
            3. There is evidence that mental health outcomes for trans gender people do not improve even after transition. Why not? Is the existing diagnostic and treatment standard already failing our trans gender community by not considering the whole?
            4. So, how do we ensure that those that present with gender dysphoria, are ensured comprehensive diagnostic care, if an "affirmative model" is adopted? This is a particular concern, if investigation into alternative causes could be seen as denying self-proclaimed identity.

            We need to ensure that legislation that originated in preventing harm for gay and lesbian people, appreciates the difference in persistence between that and gender dysphoria and ensures individual and appropriate care is provided. That may mean not affirming gender without question.

            There's more but I am picking this out letter by letter and it is enough to start discussion.

            • Anker 1.1.1.1.6.1
              26 August 2021 at 1:24 pm

              Thanks Molly, you saved me the effort.

            • Joanne Perkins 1.1.1.1.6.2
              27 August 2021 at 9:34 am

              "there is evidence that mental health outcomes for trans gender people do not improve even after transition"

              Funny, as a transwoman, who knows a lot of transwomen I can't say this is born out in my experience and that of my friends. In fact the main issue with post transition mental health issues has little to do with the persons self view, which generally improves remarkably, and much more to do with social support and acceptance. There's a lot of talk here of accepting but little actual evidence in the ongoing attempts to vilify young trans people that I have seen in this and other threads. I personally knew what I was at age 9, but wanting to remain a partof my family I didn't do anything about it for many years which has led to a great number of complications and hurt a huge number of people not the least my ex and my kids

              • Sabine …
                27 August 2021 at 9:54 am

                There's a lot of talk here of accepting but little actual evidence in the ongoing attempts to vilify young trans people that I have seen in this and other threads.

                Please point to anywhere on this blog where some of the commentators are 'vilifying' trans people, young or old. Because frankly there are none. There are points raised that seem to be fairly normal to me, i.e. is it healthy for a ten year old to be put on hormone blockers, to then be put on testesterone, to then undergoing a full a double masectomy at the onset of breast development, to then undergoing a hysterotomy at 18 to then discovering per chance at 26 (or any other date after that) that one has been sterilized while transing from Female (Biological) to Male (Trans).

                I have yet to work the guts up to find out what is done to boys in order to trans them to female. Just so that they wake up at some stage in their lifes to find out that they too have been neutered.
                And as with always, it works well for some, and it works not well for others.

                I have two issues with the self id and the race to 'affirmation'.

                A. Not everyone who self ID as 'women' is trans, many other simply gender queer. To me this is a big difference, but to some it is not i guess?

                B. To affirm kids as toddlers in my mind is insane and bordering on child abuse and grooming behavior. Kids can obviously know a lot at various ages but toddlers should not 'worry' about body issues, they should simply be let kids. Ideally without any notion of gender impacting on childhood.

                Anyone who is gong to undergo such life changing surgeries such as the removal of healthy body parts, and essentially reproductive organs should be old enough to a. understand what is done to them and b. want it.

                Anyone who is going from no medication to daily injections/pills of hormones etc should be old enough to understand what 'lifelong' means.

                Because if we don't err on the side of caution, we are going to end up with a generation of people in bodies they can no longer change at all, and bodies that will have been neutered, and in bodies that need daily medication at a high cost.

              • solkta …
                27 August 2021 at 10:06 am

                Thanks for coming here and sharing. We often hear how this site can feel unsafe for cis women to contribute yet those same people don't seem to consider what it might be like for trans women to do so.

              • Molly …
                27 August 2021 at 12:55 pm

                Hello Joanne

                I am glad that you have improved quality of life. Usually in discussions on TS, we are often asked for more than anecdotal data to make decisions for populations.

                When looking for studies regarding mental health, there are quite a few hits proclaiming the advantage of transitioning. But further investigation into those claims shows those studies often have peer critiques that are not addressed. So, I tried to find studies that had been thoroughly scrutinised.

                This 2020 Public Discourse article outlines the difficulty of conducting research, and the common (but not supported) conclusions that are often made without statistical validation.

                This is not to say that individuals don't experience benefits, but it is not a universal given as is often claimed.

                What this means, I don't know. Perhaps, it is simply that better and/or longer support systems need to be in place.

                What is important to everyone, particularly the trans gender community, is that studies are accepted only when data is robust, and the conclusions are based on statistically valid empirical evidence. If mental health remains neutral, or worsens then a priority to improve outcomes should be a priority.

          • Anker 1.1.1.1.7
            26 August 2021 at 1:23 pm

            How would you define Conversion Therapy I feel love?

            The Minister muddied the waters by talking about rugby coaches and parents.. Rugby coaches and parents aren't therapists.

            As Roblogic says down this thread there are already laws and processes for child abuse and rightly so.

            BTW practices of punishment, electric shocks and corrective rape (I understand these are past practices of Conversion Therapy are abhorant and evil. Exorcism too.

          • weka 1.1.1.1.8
            26 August 2021 at 1:33 pm

            "Bollocks. Conversion Therapy is evil & should be banned. National & Ani & the Tamakis are wrong & shame on anyone supporting Conversion Therapy."

            Can you please explain to me how affirmation only approaches by health professionals and counsellors will be dealt with under this Act for detrans people?

            • Populuxe1 1.1.1.1.8.1
              26 August 2021 at 3:19 pm

              Given that conversion therapy applies to mental states I can't even see how this applies. In that context it would almost certainly be dealt with in exactly the same way as any other medical procedure carried out in good faith that has to be reversed – ACC.

              • Anker …
                26 August 2021 at 3:36 pm

                Populuxe 1. But it is a bit more complex than that. It is just not about reversing these procedures, as some of them can't easily be reversed. Re-creating a penis after castration., losing ones testicles. Fertility issues from cross sex hormones…………Its about the age at which these are done and informed conset.

                Keira Bell in the UK took the Tavistock Clinic to Court as she had puberty blockers, cross sex hormone and surgery. The puberty blockers were at age 16 years. The judge found in favour of Keira saying that she would not have been able to give informed consent at that age.

                There is also the case of a psychotherapist in Bath UK who was doing a masters or PHd studying detransitioners. His research was initially approved, but then the universtity changed their mind. He believes it was to do with the the likely back lash the university would face.

                BTW the Karolina Institute in Sweden has recently changed its approach to the prescription of puberty blockers to the age of 18 years, based on the evidence from NICE.

                Can post links if required, but already have on a number of occassions.

                Still no one has come forth with a defiinition of Converstion Therapy (unless I have missed it)

                • Macro …
                  26 August 2021 at 4:08 pm

                  Still no one has come forth with a defiinition of Converstion Therapy (unless I have missed it)

                  It's here

                  Conversion Therapy defined in the proposed bill as any practice that:

                  • is directed towards an individual because of the individual’s sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression; and
                  • is performed with the intention of changing or suppressing the individual’s sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression.

                  The bill provides a list of things that are not considered to be conversion practices, including:

                  • a health service provided by a health practitioner in accordance with their scope of practice
                  • assisting an individual who is considering undergoing, or is undergoing, a gender transition
                  • assisting an individual to express their gender identity
                  • providing acceptance, support, or understanding of an individual
                  • facilitating an individual’s coping skills, development, or identity exploration, or facilitating social support
                  • the expression only of a religious principle or belief that is not intended to change or suppress an individual’s sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression.

                  Having witnessed the fundamentalist, and frankly unchristian, fervour and unfeeling venom of those on the religious right towards LGBT folk and advocates of "conversion therapy"; I can only say that as a past member of the Presbyterian and Methodist Public Questions Committee in the 1970's and 80's which advocated for Fran Wild's Homosexual Law Reforms in the mid 80's, and a number of of other social justice issues, including the revised adoption law which was essentially drafted by one of our members (until then persons adopted could never get to know their birth mother or the birth mother ever get to know her adopted child)*, I can only agree that this is a most need piece of legislation.

                  • roblogic …
                    26 August 2021 at 4:23 pm

                    Ridiculous. When a 5 year old claims to be a dinosaur or a tree you don't take it seriously. Identity and sexuality evolves and changes over a lifetime, especially during puberty. The idea of an innate/ fixed identity disconnected from physical reality is a controversial belief with religious (gnostic) overtones.

                    • Macro …
                      26 August 2021 at 4:29 pm

                      Well thank you very much for putting words into my mouth. Where in the above comment have I suggested anything that you claim I have?

                    • roblogic …
                      26 August 2021 at 4:42 pm

                      I was responding to the definition of CT that you quoted. It has inbuilt assumptions of immutable characteristics and it doesn't take account of adults who want therapy in order to better live in accordance with their own religious beliefs.

                      In other words the proposal holds a particular view of the human person that undermines biology and religious freedom.

                    • McFlock …
                      26 August 2021 at 4:49 pm

                      Take it to the select committee then. See how many cross-party fucks there are to give.

                    • roblogic …
                      26 August 2021 at 5:11 pm

                      The debate has been poisoned by misinformation.

                      When academics, politicians, and social commentators, continue to trade in false claims, vague generalisations and caricatures—all the while, ignoring what churches actually teach and practice—then what we have is not an honest dialogue but bullying bigotry.

                    • McFlock …
                      26 August 2021 at 5:22 pm

                      lol

                      nice article – pretending that "conversation" forced, at length, on vulnerable people by their religious leaders doesn't approach "coercion".

                      It's a bit like the "parent" hypothetical – a simple "conversation" probably wouldn't even be reported to the cops.

                      But an ambush intervention-style harrassment designed to break someone down with guilt and self-loathing? Oh, that's just "conversation", too, right?

                    • Populuxe1 …
                      26 August 2021 at 5:43 pm

                      If the child's claims to be a dinosaur or tree was completely unwavering, causing clear and enduring emotional distress in the child, and was diagnosed by a medical specialist as severe body dysphoria, you might have a point.
                      You don't.

                    • roblogic …
                      26 August 2021 at 6:06 pm

                      Reinforcing delusion with ideas that one can be "born in the wrong body" is malpractice

                    • McFlock …
                      26 August 2021 at 6:36 pm

                      Malpractice? Report them to the medical council, then.

                    • McFlock …
                      26 August 2021 at 8:41 pm

                      damn hit the wrong reply tab

                  • Molly …
                    26 August 2021 at 4:25 pm

                    Does the second list include:

                    "Appropriate diagnostic, medical, counselling and support services that do not follow the "affirmation only" model."

                    Because that is the clarity being sought.

                    Questions on this are not being answered by the MP's responsible for the bill, and your list only relates to affirmation models.

                    Young people may have other issues being missed if we cannot guarantee that all diagnostic tools and treatments remain available to them.

                    • Macro …
                      26 August 2021 at 4:38 pm

                      You see you and others are reading far too much into this than is intended. As far as I can see this legislation is directed solely at the unethical, unprofessional, and fundamental religious based "programs" of badgering young people.

                      McFlock linked to a few articles above on what sort of damage these programs can do to those who suffer such treatment.

                    • Molly …
                      26 August 2021 at 5:05 pm

                      I think we both agree on the harm that can be caused by gay conversion therapy, as we know that same sex attraction persists into adulthood,

                      However, given historical and ongoing research into the majority percentage of gender dysphoric young people who resolve their dysphoria in adulthood, how do we ensure this legislation does not put appropriate treatment under "conversion therapy".

                      If this assurance was guaranteed within the legislation so that it could not be misinterpreted, then most of the concerns raised here would be addressed.

                    • Macro …
                      26 August 2021 at 5:11 pm

                      In that case I think you need to put that concern to the select committee – there are 13 days left to make such a submission.

                    • Molly …
                      26 August 2021 at 5:15 pm

                      Jesus, macro.

                      It's obvious you didn't read the link. Try to inform yourself at least.

                      And have a discussion..

                      Your ‘make a submission response…” added to a failure to address actual points is NoDebate in all its glory. (Also, very hard to make a submission on proposed legislation that the minister himself has trouble explaining.)

                    • McFlock …
                      26 August 2021 at 5:24 pm

                      Telling someone to participate in the only debate that will affect the outcome of concern is now "no debate", huh.

                    • Macro …
                      26 August 2021 at 5:27 pm

                      Molly I have been following this endless "discussion" for the past 2 – 3 weeks. There is little more to be said on the topic. If you feel that there is a need for that particular aspect to be addressed in the legislation – it certainly wouldn’t be fixed talking about it endlessly here – then please make a submission. It's not difficult. You can do it on-line and you do not need to appear before the committee in person.

                    • weka …
                      26 August 2021 at 5:39 pm

                      You see you and others are reading far too much into this than is intended. As far as I can see this legislation is directed solely at the unethical, unprofessional, and fundamental religious based "programs" of badgering young people.

                      I haven't read all the comments today, but maybe we're talking past each other.

                      I'm assuming what you say there is true, that the Bill is aimed at people who try to convert trans people to being non-trans. What I want to know is why the Bill isn't also aimed a people who try and convert non-trans people to being trans. i.e. the people who end up as detrans.

                      Populuxe has said elsewhere in the thread that those cases are simple medical misadventure and should be dealt with via ACC. This is a massive fail for young people who end up altering their bodies, sometimes drastically and permanently, because the adults around them believed that affirmation is the only appropriate response to gender dysphoria. It's not medical accident, it's an ideologically driven, intentionally chosen practice that is blind to detrans people.

                      I'm unclear if NZ is at risk of ending up with an affirmation only model that will lead to what is happening overseas. This needs discussion and people saying 'oh submit' are missing the point: Labour and the Greens don't even recognise the issue or they would be talking about it. The Greens have actively suppressed debate within the party including in policy development. I gather that Labour has some pressures not to talk too.

                      None of that says that trans people shouldn't be protected. They should be. What I don't yet know is if detrans people are invisible or just considered collateral damage.

                    • Molly …
                      26 August 2021 at 5:43 pm

                      In spite of numerous attempts to have some discussion, you participate only to dismiss, not to inform yourself on how similar legislation has been interpreted in practice in other countries, to the detriment of practitioners and clients in trans gender services.

                      All we all want, is the minimisation of harm.

                      We could learn from the consequences and adapt accordingly.

                      But so many are refusing to even consider that unintended consequences may result, that we can't even propose that changes are made without being accused of malicious intent.

                      Just by-the-by, do you know how prevalent gay or gender conversion therapy is in NZ?

                    • Molly …
                      26 August 2021 at 5:48 pm

                      @McFlock.

                      As always on this topic, you contribute nothing but insults and/or misdirections.

                      At least try and participate beyond that.

                    • Anker …
                      26 August 2021 at 5:58 pm

                      Populuxe 1. I think body dysmorphic disorder (aka in laypersons terms imagine ugliness syndrome) isn't about believing you are a dinosaur etc,. It is the belief that you or a particular feature is physical ugly/repulsive.

                    • roblogic …
                      26 August 2021 at 6:11 pm

                      @Molly there is no CT in NZ professional practice. That's why they are broadening the legislation to try and discriminate against religious teaching. It’s a cause in search of a bad guy

                    • Molly …
                      26 August 2021 at 6:26 pm

                      @roblogic, I hope that is not true.

                      I'm going to have to research the level of harm that's been identfied in N Z, to reassure myself that this proposal was written specifically for our institutions, practices, and citizens.

                    • McFlock …
                      26 August 2021 at 6:39 pm

                      As always on this topic, you contribute nothing but insults and/or misdirections.

                      And links to articles showing an increased risk of suicide attempts associated with attempts at conversion therapy. That's pretty fucking relevant, IMO.

                      edit: also, as always, you should see the stuff I delete before posting.

                    • roblogic …
                      26 August 2021 at 7:25 pm

                      From the American Psychological Association:

                      To date, there are no scientifically rigorous outcome studies to determine either the actual efficacy or harm of "reparative" treatments. There is sparse scientific data about selection criteria, risks versus benefits of the treatment, and long-term outcomes of "reparative" therapies. The literature consists of anecdotal reports of individuals who have claimed to change, people who claim that attempts to change were harmful to them, and others who claimed to have changed and then later recanted those claims

                    • Molly …
                      26 August 2021 at 7:50 pm

                      @McFlock, I have already conceded the harm done by the practice of conversion therapy.

                      For someone who refuses to look at links provided, there is a fair whack of hubris to you providing one link as a discussion, but we can keep on, keeping on.

                      Let's try again. Read that then comment.

                      How do we ensure that appropriate care is given to all, if anything other than affirmation may be considered "conversion therapy"? (Noting there are significant differences in persistence between same sex attraction, and gender dysphoria).

                      The impact of affirmation models for same sex attraction is not the same as for gender dysphoria. It does not involve puberty blockers, hormone treatment or surgery at ages where the person has not reached physical, cognitive or emotional maturity The interpretation of the proposal seems to indicate that any failure to affirm gender identity in a counselling or support service capacity may fall foul of this legislation:

                      From macro:

                      "Conversion Therapy defined in the proposed bill as any practice that:

                      • is directed towards an individual because of the individual’s sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression; and
                      • is performed with the intention of changing or suppressing the individual’s sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression."

                      We are treating sexual orientation, and gender expression as if the are the same in occurrence, persistence and appropriate support.

                      They are not.

                      "edit: also, as always, you should see the stuff I delete before posting."

                      I don't have to, I write it… then delete as well.

                    • McFlock …
                      26 August 2021 at 7:53 pm

                      lol "to date".

                      Which date? At least before 2001, apparently. Even despite that proviso, they were opposed to conversion therapy.

                      They've maintained that position. 2013:

                      The American Psychiatric Association
                      does not believe that same-sex orientation should or needs to be changed, and efforts to do so represent a significant risk of harm by subjecting individuals to forms of treatment
                      which have not been scientifically validated and by undermining self-esteem when sexual orientation fails to
                      change. No credible evidence exists that any mental health intervention can reliably and safely change sexual orientation; nor, from a mental health perspective does sexual orientation need to be changed.

                      2018:

                      The validity, efficacy, and ethics of clinical attempts to change an individual's sexual orientation have been challenged14,15,16,17,18. The literature also consists of anecdotal reports of people who claim that attempts to change were harmful to them, and others who claimed to have changed and then later recanted those claims19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31. Along a similar vein, gender diverse patients have been shown to benefit from gender-affirming therapies32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39.40, and given the documented harm of “reparative” or conversion therapies regarding sexual orientation, it would likely be seen as unethical to research reparative therapy outcomes with gender diverse populations.

                      They've even put out a handy little fact sheet on what it is and why it sucks.

                      Update your reference sources, there's a good chap.

                    • McFlock …
                      26 August 2021 at 8:00 pm

                      @Molly

                      If the gender expression really is just a phase, then a parent wouldn't be trying to change it by opposing permanent treatments.

                      That's where the intent comes in to ensure that the needs of the child are being met, rather than simply intending to change the child's expression or orientation because the parents don't like it.

                    • solkta …
                      26 August 2021 at 8:10 pm

                      A google search of rob's quote shows that it is a quote from a book from 2008 not a statement from the American Psychological Association.

                    • Molly …
                      26 August 2021 at 8:14 pm

                      @McFlock.

                      Your perspective is too narrow because it has a fixation on parents while the legislation is much broader, and can you please read the link first so we are both discussing the same therapies that may or may not be covered?

                      (You seem to be focused on gay conversion therapy instigated by parents, to the exclusion of all else).

                      Also, there is harm done to individuals and families as interpretations are tested by our justice systems. Legislation should be as clear as possible from the outset to minimise this fallout.

                    • McFlock …
                      26 August 2021 at 8:21 pm

                      @molly

                      given that there seem to be three distinct arguments going on in one thread, I'm not surprised there's some confusion.

                      Skimmed your link. Seems to have been a clinician acting according to his specialty being disciplined via peers and employers rather than a criminal process, so has nothing to do with the legislation currently being considered in NZ.

                    • roblogic …
                      26 August 2021 at 8:24 pm

                      It's turning into ideology-based medicine. Perhaps it doesn't bother you that something weird is going on and professional organisations are cancelling therapists who speak out.

                    • Molly …
                      26 August 2021 at 8:35 pm

                      If you only skimmed the link, you are skimming the conversation. Take the time to read.

                      I'll wait till you can go deeper.

                      The article does relate to how appropriate individualised therapy can be considered as suppression of gender identity, and practitioners accused of harm, despite a lack of evidence.

                      Because the legislation refers to any practice of gender suppression, rather than the outcome, this may well apply here in Aotearoa.

                    • McFlock …
                      26 August 2021 at 8:43 pm

                      How would it inform the debate on Labour's support for the current bill? The bill has nothing to do with medical discipline, and health practitioners have an exemption if they're acting in their own specialty.

                    • Molly …
                      26 August 2021 at 8:53 pm

                      "The bill has nothing to do with medical discipline, and health practitioners have an exemption if they're acting in their own specialty."

                      The article shows how professional integrity is no protection against conflation of harm by affirmation only activism.

                      If it is appropriate for some health practitioners to address gender dysphoria by approaches that can be considered suppression, then it can also be appropriate for others to take this approach, including parents. There is no one size fits all. There cannot be a blanket approach to such a diverse number of presentations.

                    • McFlock …
                      26 August 2021 at 9:10 pm

                      The article shows how professional integrity is no protection against conflation of harm by affirmation only activism.

                      If one reads the article uncritically (especially in regards to bias) and comes to that conclusion, then that still has nothing to do with the proposed NZ legislation because the proposed legislation deals with criminal (rather than professional) misconduct and gives health practitioners like the chap in your article a specific exemption from prosecution.

                      Activists whinge on both sides. Sometimes folks get fired. Sometimes they end up with a steady income from patreon and etsy. This has nothing to do with criminal prosecutions. It is… what was the term? "Misdirection".

                      I've read multiple articles today on this topic and frankly managed to do more work on this than on my actual day job, so please at least link to something relevant to the NZ bill.

          • mary_a 1.1.1.1.9
            26 August 2021 at 2:01 pm

            @ I Feel Love (1.1.1.1) … Absolutely agree with your sentiments. There is no place for conversion therapy in any civilised and decent nation.

            • Molly 1.1.1.1.9.1
              26 August 2021 at 2:17 pm

              All good agreeing with sentiments, mary a.

              But we are trying to get reassurance that the proposed legislation as it stands will not result in unintended harms.

              And the discussion needs to look at a number of issues, some of which I've outlined above.

              Do you have any discussion points to raise about ensuring appropriate individualised care, which may be considered by some to be "conversion therapy" if it does not confirm gender identity automatically?

              Faafoi’s response on this issue does not reassure.

              • Anker …
                26 August 2021 at 6:05 pm

                Reply to Macro…."there is little more to be said on the subject"….well you are entitled to that view. I don't think you control what people discuss on the Standard though. I think people are entitled to raise the issues they want to and a current bill before parliament seems like a suitable topic for the Standard.

                I think people know they can make a submission on the Conversion Therapy Bill. And many probably will. That is irrelevant to discussion here.

                I did find your link helpful Macro. But there are gaps still. What about parents saying "you are too young to make this decision. We want to wait and see? " re puberty blockers, cross sex hormone and surgery.

                What about if people refuse to use peoples pro-nouns?

        • Gypsy 1.1.1.2
          26 August 2021 at 11:55 am

          Well said. BTW IMHO Stanford is very impressive. Alongside Willis she's one of a new breed of MP's who are likely to be the future of National.

        • Nic181 1.1.1.3
          27 August 2021 at 8:42 am

          This is no area for politics. Individuals have the right to make their own choices. I taught teenagers for 32 years so I know how difficult they can be. If you allow their choices and support them, you will have happier teenagers and families.

          Conversion therapy is a flawed concept that can only lead to more harm. Ban it!

  2. Drowsy M. Kram 2
    26 August 2021 at 7:12 am

    Not Everyone Can Afford to ‘Learn to Live With’ COVID-19 [25 Aug]
    If history is a guide, infectious diseases exploit inequities not just within societies but between them.
    This two-track recovery, where protection against the disease mirrors wealth and power, unfortunately reflects a historical pattern that is several centuries old. The world’s only hope lies in breaking it.

    NZ and Australia are currently under the pandemic pump, but once we're in a position where nearly all of us will be able to live with COVID-19, we should take action to distribute wealth more evenly, both within and between societies. But will/can we?

    ‘Living with COVID’ could end up two very different ways [24 Aug]
    We should demand that political leaders lead us into a 21st-century world of living with COVID safely, not into the 17th-century world of living with COVID dangerously.

    Simple steps experts say we can take to learn to live with the coronavirus [25 Aug.; a Regence (Oregon) sponsored 2-minute "Health Minute" video]

  3. Tony Veitch (not etc.) 3
    26 August 2021 at 7:14 am

    It really annoys me to hear the likes of Chris Bishop taking the moral high ground (on Morning Report this morning) on the supposed failings of the government.

    We all know (but cannot prove) that the Natz in power would

    a) have opened this country much earlier than the present government, with resulting cases of covid,

    b) would have applied a lockdown-lite similar to that in New South Wales, with infection trends like in Sydney, and

    c) would have priotised the economy over the lives of citizens.

    Sure, the opposition’s task is to hold the government to account, but their hypocrisy beggars belief.

    • dv 3.1
      26 August 2021 at 7:16 am

      Chris Bishop and moral in the same sentence , Geez weird

    • tc 3.2
      26 August 2021 at 9:02 am

      Allowing bishop the high ground shows how ineffective RNZ has become.

      It's an easy house of cards to topple with a decent set of questions rather than the provided soapbox.

    • Pete 3.3
      26 August 2021 at 10:50 am

      Opposition politicians say it's the media's job to hold the government to account. Does the media hold opposition politicians to account too?

      e.g. Was Bishop questioned about the way he would have gone about things

      a) opening this country much earlier than the present government, with resulting cases of covid,

      b) applying a lockdown-lite similar to that in New South Wales, with infection trends like in Sydney

      c) priotising the economy over the lives of citizens?

  4. Jenny how to get there 4
    26 August 2021 at 8:22 am

    ‘

    New Zealand Carbon neutral by 2050?

    Sure, but only on the condition that we are allowed to continue polluting like crazy in the present.

    From No Right Turn;

    Climate Change: NZPAM takes the piss

    Idiot/Savant – Wednesday, August 25, 2021

    Last month, the Labour government outraged Aotearoa by granting two new fossil fuel exploration permits in Taranaki. In a context where the planet is literally on fire and even the International Energy Agency is saying "no more fossil fuels", it seemed like an extraordinarily stupid decision,…..

    http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2021/08/climate-change-nzpam-takes-piss.html

  5. Ad 5
    26 August 2021 at 8:33 am

    The ex-Prime Minister of Samoa accuses Jacinda Ardern of actively undermining him so that a woman would replace him:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/26/samoas-former-pm-accuses-jacinda-ardern-of-plot-to-replace-him-with-a-woman

    TBH it would be fun if it were true.

    • dv 5.1
      26 August 2021 at 9:02 am

      From the link

      Ardern was one of the first world leaders to congratulate Fiame on her election to the office of prime minister after the court ruled her victory was legitimate, which was seen as a key moment in the global community accepting her victory.

      Tuilaepa said her prompt congratulations was “proof” that the New Zealand government had “planned this all along”.

      Deluded !!!!

    • mac1 5.2
      26 August 2021 at 9:34 am

      Another way to read this is that Samoa for several months was in a political crisis because a man did not want to be supplanted by a woman.

      O the shame! O the ignominy!

      Mrs Mac1 says it's becoming an overseas thing to blame our tall poppy, Jacinda- in the case of Covid for daring to even look like getting our response caring, careful and right.

      The revealing part, in the above-cited Guardian article, of the utterances of the former Samoan male PM was where what he observed about timing became what he thought, became what was a fact, and finally became proof.

    • Maurice 5.3
      26 August 2021 at 10:01 am

      Samoan distrust of New Zealand goes back to the World War One "invasion" and subsequent Spanish Flu infection.

      https://my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/samoa-pasifika-involvement-in-the-first-world-war/

      "After war was declared by Britain, it was imperative that Samoa be taken back from the Germans to disable the potential utilisation of the Samoa group as a Pacific launch base. There were no permanent means of defence in Samoa, and the Germans put up no resistance when the New Zealand Samoa Advanced Force arrived in Apia on 29 August 1914. The British flag was hoisted at the courthouse."

      "On Thursday 7th November, 1918 the Talune, a New Zealand steamer ship that operated a supply service through Auckland, Suva, Nuku'alofa and Samoa, docked in Apia Harbour. Its holdings contained passengers, supplies for trading and the deadly Spanish Flu …..

      The ship ironically carried news of the Spanish influenza break out in the Northern Hemisphere to Samoa, and the fatal cases that had reached New Zealand and beginning to affect the Māori population. Two days later a family of four were reportedly all sick, and their five-month-old baby died. The bonfire that was held in Apia on Beach Road, to celebrate the armistice would have escalated the spread of the flu to the outer villages. 19% of the population was wiped out within months"

      “A 1948 United Nations study described Samoa’s exposure as “the most disastrous epidemic recorded anywhere in the world during the present century.”

  6. Jester 6
    26 August 2021 at 9:51 am

    There is always one trouble maker! Well done to the Four Square staff for handling this so well, they do a fantastic job.

    Covid 19 coronavirus Delta outbreak: Anti-masker's rant caught on video – NZ Herald

  7. Reality 7
    26 August 2021 at 10:06 am

    Chris Trotter on Daily Blog has written an interesting article on why right wing media are in such a frenzy and are always attacking our PM. She is young, a woman, popular and enjoys people.

    • AB 7.1
      26 August 2021 at 11:51 am

      Nice piece by Chris Trotter – he can still produce good stuff when working outside his currently vitiating obsession with 'free speech' etc. But I do think he has overplayed the sexist aspect of the right's reaction to Ardern and underplayed their fear of ideological contagion, i.e. if a government and its citizens can collectively mobilise to battle a pandemic, why can't it do the same for climate change or economic inequality?

      • roblogic 7.1.1
        26 August 2021 at 4:11 pm

        freedom of speech is rightly the domain of the anti-authoritarian left. we should not cede that argument to idiots in ACT

        • AB 7.1.1.1
          27 August 2021 at 9:35 am

          Yes I agree – but I think Chris has been unable to frame his position on the subject in a way that sufficiently differentiates himself from ACT. He thus ends up amplifying them, rather than undercutting them.

      • Incognito 7.1.2
        27 August 2021 at 6:34 pm

        Good comment, particularly this:

        … if a government and its citizens can collectively mobilise to battle a pandemic, why can't it do the same for climate change or economic inequality?

        The pandemic feels real, it makes people very ill and kills them. If not here in NZ, but overseas where many Kiwis have lost friends, family, and workmates. Fear is a good motivator.

        Climate Change feels a long distance and time away and doesn’t quite have the same fear level, yet. I’d say we’re at Level 1.5.

        Economic inequality is just life and we’ll have to accept as a fact of life and live with it. If you’re a home owner*you’ll know how it feels: it feels good, it feels right.

        *not all home owners feel this way, but they’ll take the money anyway

  8. Jenny how to get there 8
    26 August 2021 at 10:17 am

    The 'staggering' hypocrisy of Judith Collins

    Collins has accused the government "staggering cruelness", for not being quicker in getting our Afghani supporters out of Afghanistan.

    The Prime Minister pushed back;

    "I would just simply point out that people we're bringing into New Zealand whose lives are at risk are individuals who weren't eligible in 2012 when the National Government first implemented the ability for some interpreters to come."
    Prime Minister Ardern.

    "Either Labour is unkind or tragically incompetent across foreign policy, defence, and immigration", said Collins.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/08/judith-collins-brands-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-staggeringly-cruel-for-snail-s-pace-response-to-afghanistan-crisis.html

    The Prime Minister is right. With her own words Judith Collins has just condemned her own former National Party Government;

    From 2012

    Ex-Afghan interpreters say they're excluded from refugee deal

    Kathryn Ryan – Radio New Zealand, 9:09 am on 26 October 2012

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2536635/ex-afghan-interpreters-say-they're-excluded-from-refugee-deal

    2012, transcription of the RNZ interview with Diamond Kazimi

    I need to some help from the media to get my point out there for the government to hear. There are people that remain in Afghanistan and I don’t want to leave them behind…….

    ….I don’t have any authority, and I can’t do anything, and as I have said before they have tried to email them, those former commanders and those former officials but it is really disappointing how they didn’t even email them back. Because they have got kids, they have got families. How hard will it be for them to hear the news that they are only going to take 23 to 26 interpreters who are currently working, and not these poor people who have worked for more than a decade, and it is just heart breaking for them….

    ….the forces (that are working with them) do agree that everyone should be included in this deal. But it is just like; I just don’t understand this decision that John Key made regarding of this. Because there are like, contractors, electricians, builders who first worked for the New Zealand army in there to build the base. I mean, they’re the ones, that we need to look into that too. They have actually helped us build the base and they are still waiting they are locals they need New Zealand’s help…..

    There are more than five or ten, there are a hundred of them…..

    There is a female who works in the base and she usually cooks for the soldiers, I mean, what a great danger she is going to be (in) when New Zealand leaves……

    These people, the contractors, the interpreters, the former interpreters want their families to become residents of New Zealand. Because these people have actually showed commitment, they have done service to New Zealand and they deserve to come here.

    Diamond Kazimi Nine to Noon with Kathryn Ryan, 26/10/ 2012

    Only 23 to 26 families were to be given sanctuary in New Zealand by the previous National Government. The majority were abandoned to their fate.

    National’s Defence Minister Johnathon Coleman said at the time that those left behind could apply as refugees, and if their lives were in danger their applications will be looked on “reasonably”. Coleman went on to say this favourable eye would not be extended to cooks cleaners and other contracted support staff. As they had “not had a high profile“.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/7865719/Afghan-interpreter-resettlement-deal-confirmed

  9. mpledger 9
    26 August 2021 at 10:26 am

    I wish RNZ would stop catatrophising the govts/MoH contingency plans. For example the MoH opens up two hotels to be quarantine facilities because they don't want to be caught short if cases take off but then RNZ is like "so we're going to be caught short".

    No, there is a risk that we'll be caught short and the MoH/govt is trying to lower that risk. It doesn't mean that there is a large chance it will happen but it's something that should be planned for because the cost of not sorting it out is high.

    I am an introvert so lockdown is fine for me but for some people this really drives their anxiety when it's totally unecessary to report things in that way.

    • Anne 9.1
      26 August 2021 at 10:53 am

      Damned if they do and damned if they don't. I think its become a contest to see which media outlet can come up with the most outlandish shock-jock story of the day.

      What really annoys me is the media’s apparent inability to distinguish between operational matters which are the realm of individual DHBs and general policy directions as laid down by govt. Either they know and deliberately mix the two together, or they are the most ignorant bunch of journos ever seen in this country.

      Yes, I concede there are a few exceptions.

      • Ghostwhowalksnz 9.1.1
        26 August 2021 at 4:39 pm

        One RNZ guy made a big deal of the Anti Lockdown protest outside TVNZ, maybe a dozens turned up , along with a dozen media.

        Yet the RNZ ' opinion piece' ran as though there was an uprisising in the offing against our harsh overlords. ( cant find it online anymore)

        The 'reward' for the journo was it was syndicated to the NZ Herald

    • gsays 9.2
      26 August 2021 at 11:12 am

      Like Collins upthread, the media are struggling to take a trick. The government response to Covid has been spot on.

      The culture created around the vaccinations is a reflection of this. A vaccinator made a boo-boo during their day. They weren't afraid to put their hand up and start the process of sorting it.

      I would far rather this state of affairs rather than the sort of carry on voiced on the RNZ this am.

  10. francescange 10
    26 August 2021 at 10:41 am

    Interesting piece informed by OIA documents throwing a light on our foreign policy positions

    With foreign policy shielded from public scrutiny in New Zealand, these documents provide a rare glimpse of how decisions on issues of crucial international importance seem to be made between officials and ministers. In this case, it was a decision to relax intellectual property rules for Covid-19 vaccines. But what does this tell us about how NZ will decide its global position on other global existential threats like climate change

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/aug/25/new-zealands-stance-on-peoples-vaccine-for-covid-undermines-its-principled-reputation

  11. francesca 11
    26 August 2021 at 10:44 am

    Yep

    sorry about the extra bits on moniker, extra trouble for you and unobservant of me

  13. Sacha 13
    26 August 2021 at 12:19 pm

    The (paywalled) online link to the story about Nat caucus ructions mentioned in #1 above before that thread got diverted into conversion therapy: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/covid-19-coronavirus-thomas-coughlan-knives-out-in-national-as-caucus-struggles-to-show-unity-despite-obvious-division/PKJ2PZM6ABLWKZQCLRXK2BKYZE/

    Subscribers, have at it..

  14. Incognito 14
    26 August 2021 at 1:33 pm

    What does the Press Gallery think of the 1-pm press conferences?

    Is it all orchestrated by the Government spin doctors to feed us ‘massaged’ data & info?

    If you have a strong bias you might want to give this a miss we know who you are.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/podcast-card/dark-and-light-twists-in-our-daily-1pm-dose

  15. Incognito 15
    26 August 2021 at 1:44 pm

    When calling out BS it pays to be blunt and clear.

    University of Auckland epidemiologist Rod Jackson said the [Scott Morrison’s] comments were inane and ridiculous, especially Morrison talking about forever.

    “I’m unaware of anyone in New Zealand saying forever,” he said. He believes part of the problem is the conflation of the terms eradication and elimination.

    “Elimination refers to a specific population at a specific point in time,” he said. “Eradication means no more of the virus in the world – perhaps like smallpox. It’s a shame the words are so similar.”

    I share his optimism; the biggest hurdle/obstacle is the same as always.

    However, his view of the future had an optimistic tinge as well. Jackson said because Covid has not proven to be as quickly-mutating as influenza, world-wide vaccination may get it under control.

    “Covid is not a super mutator like the flu,” he said. “We have to have a new flu vaccine every year – we can reduce the flu but we can’t stop it. In comparison, Covid mutates quite slowly.

    “I see life and death at the end of the tunnel,” he said. “It could become much more severe – or it could disappear.”

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/delta-needs-a-sledgehammer-not-a-scalpel-nz-epidemiologist

  16. Adrian 16
    26 August 2021 at 1:50 pm

    87,000 + vaccinations yesterday and 73% of over 30 yr old NZers have had the vax or signed up to get it according to today’s 1pm,er. Nothing like a glimpse of the ghostly man with the scythe to scare the shit out of some eh. If I was cynical I would say that the outbreak has done us all a favour, except of course the poor buggers who have taken one for the team, commiserations to you and best of luck.

    That figure once completed has to be the one of the highest in the world, no wonder Collins and Bishop et al are pissed off, my bet is they wanted a low turnout.

    • bwaghorn 16.1
      26 August 2021 at 3:59 pm

      Like myself alot of those people would have booked pre outbreak.

      But little bit of fair will be surely pushing a few hesitants over the line

    • mauī 16.2
      26 August 2021 at 5:20 pm

      People should never be scared into taking personal actions in the name of public health. I really don't see that as a good thing, but here we are…

    • I Feel Love 16.3
      26 August 2021 at 8:35 pm

      Those are astounding numbers for the over 30s! I dare say you're right Adrian, my anti vax GF got her first shot today, yay!

      I'm not so sure about that bwaghorn, people are booking now& getting appointments the next day, things have ramped up quickly. It's bloody impressive.

  17. Anker 17
    26 August 2021 at 1:52 pm

    Yes commiserations to those unlucky enough to have contracted covid. It must be terrifying.

  18. Pataua4life 18
    26 August 2021 at 2:59 pm

    I wonder if Mickey S will write about this. On the other hand if it was National?

    Labour lockdown ads: PM 'disappointed' after delivery in her electorate | Stuff.co.nz

    • David 18.1
      26 August 2021 at 4:29 pm

      Unlikely, but I've taken the liberty of giving the PM a hand with her speech from the podium for tomorrow:

      tena katoa katoa

      I want to start with some great news Aotearoa. We now have 5000 trained Labour propaganda distributors. Yesterday during Level 4 we delivered a record 80,000 propaganda pamphlets throughout the land. This is an amazing achievement and I want to thank the team of supporters.

      Now for the not such good news. In terms of vaccine delivery, we are still last in the OECD. I’ll hand over to Doctor Bloomfield to provide an explanation. Doctor, over to you.

      • mac1 18.1.1
        26 August 2021 at 6:43 pm

        You did take a liberty. When putting words into someone else's mouth, which is normally contra-indicated, get them right.

        Tena koutou katoa.

        • David 18.1.1.1
          26 August 2021 at 6:50 pm

          Thanks for the proof. Apologies

          Guessing lack of further comments you’re okay with the rest of the message.

          • mac1 18.1.1.1.1
            26 August 2021 at 7:36 pm

            Again, you presume more than you dare.

            Remember the old Latin saying, " Tacere non consentire".

    • Anne 18.2
      26 August 2021 at 6:52 pm

      What it tells us P4life is that Labour has a few idiots who apparently can't read among its ranks too, but nothing like as many as National and ACT and you're one of them.

      • I Feel Love 18.2.1
        26 August 2021 at 8:37 pm

        Ha! No, another own goal for the bored shit stirring right wingers, the pamphlets had been sitting in the bozos letterbox since last month!

          • mac1 18.2.1.1.1
            26 August 2021 at 10:21 pm

            He was overseas on holiday? Had to return home for level 4 lockdown? He was avoiding his creditors?He is one of the illiterati? He thought a letter box was a condominium? What?

        • David 18.2.1.2
          27 August 2021 at 7:54 am

          Haha. Thats why the PM felt the need to apologise at her 1PM standup yesterday! Did you read the link? Doh

          • Drowsy M. Kram 18.2.1.2.1
            27 August 2021 at 9:50 am

            Did "the PM apologise at her 1PM standup yesterday!" @41:40? Dave, ya dreeaming.

            It's really disappointing… let’s be open… it is frustrating, it is disappointing… human error… it's no excuse but simply an explanation.

            Our PM is a very good leader and communicator – a safe pair of hands – her integrity and openess will be incomprehensible and threatening to some.

            Unite against COVID-19 – https://covid19.govt.nz/

  19. Herodotus 19
    26 August 2021 at 3:04 pm

    I was asked this yesterday “Even better, if you think there's someone in NZ better to be PM or DGHealth or whatever, please “ and associated with this question and the focus in these 2 I feel that many are not recognising those who are supporting these 2 preparing the briefing and getting things done for our benefit and safety.
    These 2 are like the chairmen of the board fronting up and being the face of the company.

    • Pataua4life 19.1
      26 August 2021 at 3:48 pm

      I disagree.

      1, People who made an appointment or only had one dose are not "vaccinated"

      2, 71K or what doses administered or record they say have administered in a day is not vaccinated.

      3, Delta has been the only strain coming through MIQ since April or June Dr Bloomfield said. They have had months knowing Delta is the only strain out there.

      4, The PM herself said we are the last country in the world to have a Delta outbreak? Have we learnt nothing of those other countries and the research done on Delta. We should have had mass vaccination eventds months ago not just now when Delta has already broken out.

      You see strong leadership, I just see BS and PR spin and very little accountability.

      • Adrian 19.1.1
        26 August 2021 at 3:59 pm

        Vaccinated what with ? Cold tea, you Tory apologist Chicken Littles and your broken records stuck on repeat are nothing more than dickheads. God, I’ve had a guts full of your like.

      • Gabby 19.1.2
        26 August 2021 at 8:48 pm

        We've learnt that opening the border doesn't work.

    • McFlock 19.2
      27 August 2021 at 3:28 pm

      Board chairs have a function, too, like any leader.

      But the other thing is that the question was about who you would have doing the job instead of the incumbents. The thought that occurred last night was if you replaced DG health with an unknown bureaucrat selected on merit to do the briefings because of their training and specialist knowledge… that's just like getting the DG health to front up at press conferences.

      How many people knew NZ even had a DGH 18 months ago, let alone the name of the incumbent?

      • Incognito 19.2.1
        27 August 2021 at 6:18 pm

        How many people knew NZ even had a DGH 18 months ago, let alone the name of the incumbent?

        I think Herodotus is pining for Dr Chai Chuah, who truly was a CEO bureaucrat.

  21. Reality 21
    26 August 2021 at 4:24 pm

    Pataua4life – vaccine supplies have been in huge demand worldwide most of the year. Was NZ more entitled to be at the head of the queue than so many other countries which were in a dreadful situation and we were living a pretty as usual life?

    I liken the pandemic to winning a war. Looking back at the two world wars, some battles were lost but the wars were in the end won by the allies. For such a huge logistical, organisational, and staffing undertaking of course not everything went perfectly but lessons are learnt all the time.

    Give me the PM we have rather than Judith Collins with her sneers and nastiness and focus on opening borders to suit business interests rather than the health of New Zealanders. I can still hear her demands from last year to "open the borders".

  22. Adrian 22
    26 August 2021 at 5:11 pm

    Haste would have got an inferior vaccine, the SCIENTISTS waited to see what the vaccine with the least complications and the most effectiveness was, and that was Phizer. The governments job was to manage the political process to keep us as safe as possible until it was available, not helped by the Americans keeping all of their production within their own borders. It was a strategy that was brilliantly executed and became the worlds gold standard on how to do it properly, and because of that strategy, we have the most superior vaccine of the lot. The Australians on the other hand spent shitloads on a University of Queensland one that was to be manufactured in Melbourne. That went well didn’t it, exactly the same as every thing else they attempted. Right- wing stupidity begets the long lasting effect of Covid, Long Stupid. And you P4 are the poster boy for it.

  23. Reality 23
    26 August 2021 at 5:48 pm

    Pataua4Life – your reading comprehension needs improvement. If you are referring to my post about NZ being fortunate we have Jacinda Arden as PM, rather than Judith Collins, you need to re-read the post. You are confused.

  24. logie97 24
    26 August 2021 at 7:56 pm

    Electric Vehicles.

    In time there are going to be a lot of serviceable motor bodies in very good condition, but little to no hydrocarbon fuels to power them.

    Are there any plans for the major manufacturers to make electrical engines to replace the internal combustion units in these vehicles? Or are the incompatibilities just too great?

    Just wondering

  25. mac1 25
    26 August 2021 at 8:24 pm

    I have an engineering acquaintance who has converted an ICE ute to an EV as a backyard conversion, fully certificated and road worthy, and who is working on doing the same with a BMW.

    So, it can be done. The ute handily carries the battery pack in the tray.