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Open mike 24/08/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 24th, 2021 - 123 comments
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Step up to the mike …

123 comments on “Open mike 24/08/2021 ”

  1. bwaghorn 1

    Apparently there is a movement gaining momentum to change the nz football team's name from the All Whites,

    Peak stupid rapidly approaching.

    • I Feel Love 1.1

      You care that much? Really? Teams change their names on all the time, get over it.

      • mpledger 1.1.1

        He doesn't care about the name, he cares about the reason for it. I guess it does give the wrong impression if you don't know the origin of the name but it seems like there are way more worthy things for people to give their energy to.

      • logie97 1.1.2

        It appears to be one of those "World famous in New Zealand" nomenclatures. Remember the mystery and then release of the name for the NZ cricket team… wait for it… drum roll "The Black Caps!" And that was followed by a plethora of national team names (Black Socks, Black Sticks, Black Magic … Black Ferns – the list goes on). The problem is that when these teams travel they are invariably referred to as New Zealand. And even the All Blacks are listed and introduced when playing internationals as "New Zealand". They used to play smaller county and rugby matches as the All Blacks and were referred to by those unions outside NZ as The All Blacks. A bit like the MCC which is the official title for the English touring team but they are England when it comes to test matches.

    • KSaysHi 1.2

      Until it goes mainstream it's just a bunch of fringe idiots who have an empty life.

    • Morrissey 1.3

      The NZ football team is called the All Blacks.

      • The Al1en 1.3.1

        Not according to the Fédération Internationale de Football Association, though they do feature on the governing world rugby website.

      • gsays 1.3.2

        Only in your world. 😉

        The word Football was dropped from the name New Zealand Rugby Football Union (NZRFU), in 2006.

        Quiet day in your neck of the woods? Looking to wind up a few boof-heads.

        I trust you are keeping well and the lockdowns aren’t getting you down.

        • Morrissey 1.3.2.1

          It's football all right. What do you think they kick around the field—a cricket ball?

          • Gypsy 1.3.2.1.1

            Except most of the contact in rugby is with the hands.

            • Morrissey 1.3.2.1.1.1

              There's a great deal of kicking in rugby football. That's why it's called football.

              Your argument is valid in the case of that American "game" in which hardly anyone ever kicks the ball, and "play" stops after a couple of seconds.

              • Gypsy

                Gridiron is an odd game, I'll give you that, but I would have the split between handling and kicking would be about the same as in rugby. And Australian rule for that matter?

                • Morrissey

                  Gridiron is an odd game, I'll give you that,

                  The game is called, bizarrely, football. The "gridiron" is the very narrow field, marked up oppressively with lines every ten yards, on which it is played.

                  but I would have the split between handling and kicking would be about the same as in rugby.

                  No, it is completely different. Kicking is the primary skill in rugby; there is only one way to move the ball forward, apart from carrying it, and that is to kick it. Kicking is routine in rugby, and it's the reason why the game opens up and flows, rather than being a form of trench warfare. To kick the ball in general play is utterly unthinkable in American (and Canadian) football—which is football in name only.

                  And Australian rules for that matter?

                  As in rugby, kicking is paramount in Australian football. Although the ridiculous "handball"—punching the ball from a closed fist instead of kicking it as in rugby— has marred the game for decades.

              • Nic the NZer

                Your just going back to outdated stereotypes. Modern Rugby teams prefer to run the ball out.

                • Morrissey

                  Of course, running the ball instead of kicking it is always an option. But kicking is essential a lot of the time. Look at the way the Tricolors destroyed the All Blacks in the 1999 World Cup semi-final: all three of their tries in the second half were the result of kicking the ball.

                  • Nic the NZer

                    You can let it go, it was 22 years ago.

                    • alwyn

                      Some things can never be forgotten. I'll bet the players will never forget it. Neither will the French of course. They never forget anything.

                      I was in Paris about 3 years ago. At lunch my wife and I were eating in a Bistro when a couple of French men nearby asked where we came from. When we said New Zealand they insisted on apologizing for the bombing of the Rainbow Warrior. I could, only just, remember exactly which year it was. They behaved as if it was just yesterday.

          • gsays 1.3.2.1.2

            As we both know, they kick a rugby ball. Although more exciting teams don't kick as much as less entertaining teams do.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 1.3.2.1.3

            Hands off NZ Football? Try searching the NZRU website for "football" or “footy“. C'mon footy players, it's only change – just run with it.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_(word)#New_Zealand

            • Morrissey 1.3.2.1.3.1

              The NZRU, which has allowed Sky Television to ruin every broadcast by insisting on “exclusive” interviews with coaches during matches, and inflicting seemingly endless talking heads shows on us, and is busy selling the “brand” to a New York venture capital outfit, is hardly a credible or reliable source for anything relating to the history and heritage of the game. And no one except those boofheads on Sky uses the puerile five-letter word for football.

              • Drowsy M. Kram

                Can't comment, not being a Sky Sports subscriber, but this 'boofhead' refers to NZ's national game by that "puerile five-letter word".

                Imho the tide’s going out on the term 'rugby football' in NZ (where everyone knows rugby's name), but I admire your 'reverse Cnut' principles. Time will tell whether your (bitter?) rearguard action bears fruit.

                https://www.newzealand.com/nz/rugby/

      • Nic the NZer 1.3.3

        Stand up for Football, Morrisey.

      • bwaghorn 1.3.4

        Oh ffs ,I carefully decided to go with football due to having had uptight tossers rant when I've called it soccer. Although you successfully stopped any conversation on whether the all whites should drop ther name.

        • Nic the NZer 1.3.4.1

          Changing the All Whites name because some people (who have no interest in football anyway) can't get over their amateur phychology of projecting racism is not going to be popular.

    • Gabby 1.4

      I'm not a big fan of them 'fuck your feelings' tshirts cobbah..

  2. aom 2

    Oh really – do we really have to know that "Islamic State-affiliate Suhayra Aden's family moved to New Zealand after Australia refused to accept her" as reported by Stuff. Besides, how is she still and 'affiliate'. If she was, she wouldn't be here – doh!

    How long will it be before some perverted reporter thinks we will have to know about the contents of the woman's drawers, unless some enterprising cereal manufacturer gets in first to use her to advertise their burka friendly new product.

    Let's leave Ms Aden and her family alone so that she and her and they can become ordinary New Zealanders who contribute to the rich fabric of the country. She doesn't need 10,000,000 eyes looking over her shoulder to see if she is putting together a bloodthirsty Caliphate that will over-run the country.

    • Johnr 2.1

      Couldn't agree more.

      Most of us do daft things in our youth and most of us get away with it gaining knowledge of a lesson well learnt

    • Kiwijoker 2.2

      People are saying she’s been seen with leading members of the opposition!

  3. David 3

    Adern can chair an APEC leaders summit virtually but apparently not a democracy.

    • dv 3.1

      She doesn't chair parliament

    • Barfly 3.2

      The thing I love most about right-wingers is their accuracy and attention to detail.

      That being said can you please tell me who the hell this "Adern" is?

    • Red Blooded One 3.3

      Parliament TV in the afternoon for democracy in a Level 4 Lockdown. You're welcome, any more delusions you are suffering from need assistance. Enjoy your 1pm walks and if necessary mask up and pop into your local supermarket and slyly turn a couple of magazines around, you'll feel so much better.

      • David 3.3.1

        Wooooosssssh

        • weka 3.3.1.1

          Maybe explain what your point is then. This isn't FB.

          • David 3.3.1.1.1

            Point is Parliament TV is not a replacement for debate in the house / over a virtual forum! It is a way to the public to watch. No more, no less.

            • Red Blooded One 3.3.1.1.1.1

              Here we go. Quote from the Herald. (Don't have a link.)

              "Robertson is the first of a line-up of ministers expected to front to Opposition and other MPs in virtual select committees this week after the Prime Minister's decision to suspend the sitting of Parliament."

              I believe some of these are being broadcast on Parliament TV. So in fact they are a replacement to debate in the house. whoosh.
              Democracy in action.

              • joe90

                Here ya go.

                Schedule of meetings

                1. Home
                2. Parliamentary Business
                3. Select committees
                4. Schedule of meetings

                The select committee meeting schedule lists the time, date, and venue for each select committee meeting planned for the coming week. It also shows the business items that will be considered at each meeting. To find out who is booked to speak at select committee hearings please see the submitters list.

                Under COVID-19 Alert Level 4 any select committees meetings will take place virtually over Zoom. The schedule is subject to change at short notice and the meeting format is dependent on changes in the COVID alert levels.

                Meetings marked as 'Parliament TV' can be viewed at Freeview 31, Sky 86, Vodafone 86, Parliament On Demand or the Covid-19 Response select committees page.

                Items marked “open to the public” will continue to be livestreamed to the committee's Facebook page.

                https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/sc/schedule-of-meetings/

              • David

                Jeepers, you really are slow aren't you!

                Parliament TV is in no way a replacement for Parliament. It's TV for goodness sake! MPs can't interact with it.

                Most everyone else has been able to conduct business via Teams, Zoom or some other forum. Meanwhile Ardern cancels Parliament. Why when there is no need. There are technology solutions to allow Parliament to continue virtually.

                Wooossh.

                • Red Blooded One

                  Settle Petal, it's you being slow, I suspect on purpose. Parliament TV is where you can watch Democracy in Action, the opposition questioning the government during the lockdown. You were whining about the PM not being able to run Democracy Virtually. We have pointed out that is exactly what they are managing to do. Get a grip.

                  • McFlock

                    I love the idea that David might think that when MPs aren't in the House they're actually watching parliament TV rather than doing all the parliamentary business that isn't in the House.

                    Or is it some sort of tory shorthand for zoom meetings rather than infecting each other face-to-face?

                    • Red Blooded One

                      I suspect he knows exactly how ridiculous he sounds, but once he’s thrown out a Nat/Act slogan there’s no going back for him.

                    • David

                      A spark of light might have come on in your second paragraph McFlock. The Red Blooded One still seems all at sea.

                      Apparently everyone else can do zoom, but Ardern is a bit special and needs to cancel rather than move to the virtual world.

                    • Red Blooded One []

                      OMG. David. Even RNZ had live coverage of the committee ZOOM meeting holding the government to account. The ZOOM meeting with David Seymour and Shayne Reti asking Grant Robertson and Ashley Bloomfield questions. How much flipping democracy do you want.

                    • David []

                      Sorry I’ll have to give up on you and cut you loose.

                      A select committee is not parliament!

                    • Red Blooded One []

                      This was your rant that I was reacting to.

                      "Adern can chair an APEC leaders summit virtually but apparently not a democracy"
                      No mention of Parliament, only Democracy.

                      Yep, happy to have you give up on me, cause we can see right through you. Bye bye.

                    • Incognito []

                      A select committee is not parliament!

                      You are soooo right; for your further edification: https://www.parliament.nz/en/visit-and-learn/how-parliament-works/fact-sheets/pbrief7/

                      HTH

                    • McFlock

                      Mate, no spark needed: everyone can see you a mile off.

                      Select committees are as much a part of parliament as debates in the House.

                      You don't even want all business conducted in the House to be done. You just want the opposition to yell nonsensicalities as soundbites for the 6pm news.

                      boohoo. The nats continued implosion can be put on hold for a couple of weeks.

            • fender 3.3.1.1.1.2

              There hasn't been any debate for a very long time. All we've seen are petty and childish stunts by an opposition that have proven what a waste of space and taxpayers funds they have become.

              • dv

                Yes

                Be good if some one could list 10 salient point the nat and act have made about covid.

              • David

                Are you advocating we do away with Parliament?

                I guess it’s an option. History is littered with countries that have given that option a go.

                • Incognito

                  Are you advocating we do away with Parliament?

                  Wooooosssssh

                  If anything, I think they’re advocating doing away with the current Opposition and build back better.

              • Drowsy M. Kram

                All we've seen are petty and childish stunts by an opposition that have proven what a waste of space and taxpayers funds they have become.

                They're not a complete waste of space – consider their entertainment value. Collins' eyebrows (not joking – or am eye?), Seymour's twerking, Bridges' cavorting at a recent party conference, a Bridge too far (Merv from Manuwera), Boag, Ngāti Goldsmith, Woodhouse's concern for the homeless – and who could forget Maureen Pugh.

                Such fascinating creatures. Calling Puckish Rogue – come in Puck.

                Btw, what's Luxon (Local Govt, Māori Development, Assoc. Transport) been up to lately? https://christopherluxon.national.org.nz/news

            • joe90 3.3.1.1.1.3

              Edgeler explains.

              • mac1

                "prorouged"? Heaven forbid.

                I blush at the thought. Far too many commo agitating, lefty comrade, fellow travelling, pinko, woke, virtue-signallers already without Parliament being prorouged!

                Better check under the beds!

            • Stuart Munro 3.3.1.1.1.4

              In principle debate in the house is really important. But in practice it is asinine. If the opposition respected the institution enough to ask relevant questions and research and meticulously critique government policy and actions, you'd have a good point.

              Sadly, Parliament disgraces itself pretty much every day. It is quite dispensable for the duration of lockdown.

    • Incognito 3.4

      I wonder if can you tell the difference between a stag night and a marriage?

    • Incognito 3.5

      Democracy has a chair!? Just as well I was sitting down when I read that.

  4. Jenny how to get there 4

    The kindest parliament on earth

    Even crustaceans are cared for.

    The government is being kind to lobsters

    ….lobster complaint upheld by parliamentary committee

    Bonnie Flaws – Stuff.co.nz, Aug 23, 2021

    Last week, Parliament’s Regulations Review Committee released a report agreeing with the Animal Law Association position that freezing lobsters prior to slaughter was not consistent with the objectives and intentions of the Animal Welfare Act 1999…..

    …..Stedman​ said slaughter practices were based on outdated scientific knowledge. Lobsters experience significant pain and distress when chilled and boiled alive, according to research…..

    Lobsters that have been frozen then boiled will recover consciousness and experience pain during the boiling process, and evidence shows they also remained conscious for longer as a result of the freezing and had complex nervous systems, she said.

    MPI had worked with the industry to ensure people were aware that lobsters were sentient and needed to be stunned and killed according to regulations, an MPI spokeswoman previously said.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/126151650/animal-law-association-lobster-complaint-upheld-by-parliamentary-committee

    • Adrian Thornton 4.1

      Good job by govt there, the way we treat all sea animals is usually pretty horrific…now they need to get on to banning big game fishing which is without doubt the most disgusting and violent 'sport' legal in this country…once the cruelty of it is witnessed by any human with any empathy for animals, it can never be forgotten.

  5. Sacha 5

    Kids are pretty smart.

  6. millsy 6

    If you are bored, someone has put the 1984 election coverage up on YouTube..

    • weka 6.1

      that TVNZ opening music is so 80s.

    • Craig Hall 6.2

      Most of the election coverage is online somewhere on Youtube and as a tragic, I rewatched some of it last election. Even knowing the outcome, the 2005 election coverage is amusing as Mike Williams spends all night predicting that Labour will come from behind on the back of South Auckland and is proven right in the last hour or two.

    • Adrian Thornton 6.3

      The worst election result for New Zealand in it's post war history IMO..the end of the NZ Labour Party as a serious political machine for workers and the dispossessed, marked the introduction and ascension of centrist third way neo-liberalism into New Zealand like an incurable cancer…I for one had no idea what I was voting for at the time to be honest, I was young idealistic and could only see the anti nuke position, taught me a good lesson though..governments lie, and always be a critical thinker, especially when it comes to politics and politicians.

      • roblogic 6.3.1

        Labour lost a lot of core supporters after the Lange years. Left voters had no representation for 20-odd years because of constant neoliberal bait and switches.

    • swordfish 6.4

      .
      This is gonna be a Big Big Night !

      … latest Heylen Poll suggests we should have a Socialist Govt by Midnight … (Heylen 7 July 1984 … Lab 49.1%, Nat 33.2%, Socred 8.9%, NZP 8.8%).

      But bear in mind, the Nats were still in front as recently as May (Heylen 26 May 1984 … Nat 43.8%, Lab 42.7%) … so might still be a little nail-biting … can't entirely rule out Muldoon once again clinging to power by his fingertips …
      angry

      But overall, looking forward to a decisive return to the protection of working class interests & local industry and a censure of the ostentatiously wealthy under a superb team of Socialist Intellectuals: Mr Douglas, Mr Prebble & Dr Bassett in particular. Rest assured, the Country will be in mighty safe hands.

      But let’s sit back with the popcorn & see what Mr Bryant & Mr Cockram & their exciting state-of-the-art technical wizardry deliver us.

      • swordfish 6.4.1

        .

        Fantastic !!! young Peter Dunne currently ahead of Templeton in Ohariu by 162 votes ! Peter has a big future in Left politics.

        • Ad 6.4.1.1

          That gawky little trouper Helen Clark looks consigned to to bumbling around forgotten committees.

  7. Reality 7

    Very strange and rather sick critique of the PM by a Graham Adams in today's Herald. Wonder if he will do a follow-up of Judith Collins.

    • Patricia Bremner 7.1

      Yes Reality, that Adams has a need to paint Jacinda as an "indoctrinated religious crafty politician". Trying to paint her nature as Mormon kindness, because…

      I think he is muddling her with Scot Morrison. Now there is a crafty religious nutter with ties to Hillside and a henchman called Dutton.

      • tc 7.1.1

        The mud continues to be slung by nationals herald in many forms.

        Scotty the other day shall we look forward to a Pauline Hanson oped soon.

  8. Incognito 8

    This is a balanced and highly informative article on how children might be affected by Covid-19 and what role this might play in the overall thinking and approach to the pandemic. Note that there are no exaggerated conclusions or extrapolations from what we currently know and do. The language is plain and non-technical for a general audience.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/how-the-delta-strain-will-affect-kiwi-kids

  9. Robert Guyton 9

    What might life be like, post-oil?

    This magazine article explores the possibilities.

    https://www.yesmagazine.org/environment/2020/02/25/life-after-oil

  10. alwyn 10

    A fair chunk of the British Press seem to have cooled of in their opinion of our PM it would appear.

    "Mark Dolan from the GB News took aim at New Zealand and Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern for putting the country into lockdown"

    "Living with this virus is going to be the only show in town. Zero COVID leads to zero economies, zero society, zero freedom and zero democracy."

    "Another writer from the Telegraph wrote a brutal opinion piece on Ardern's decision to move New Zealand to a level 4 lockdown. Matthew Lesh called the decision "poetic justice" and New Zealand's approach has "frightening consequences".

    "Elimination becomes a costly strategy with very limited benefit. What's the point of lockdowns and maintaining closed borders for a virus that, with vaccines in the mix, no longer causes much harm to individual people?"

    We are obviously stuck in this time warp until the vaccination status of the population gets up to at least a second world country status. The virus isn't going to go away. We will have to live with it unless we go over to the world of North Korea and lock everyone up for ever. Well stop talking about how wonderful our approach is supposed to be and get on with the vaccination of everyone who wants to have it. Then, as an old Negro spiritual put it "Let my people go!"

    https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/isolated-dystopia-world-reacts-to-nzs-bad-to-worse-frightening-lockdown-move-nearly-a-week-on/ar-AANCkUg?ocid=msedgntp

    • Morrissey 10.1

      A fair chunk of the British Press seem to have cooled of in their opinion of our PM it would appear.

      The extreme right wing British press, which you have chosen to quote here, was never laudatory of Jacinda Ardern. Your case was dead in the water the moment you chose to quote the partisan and scabrous filth that is the Daily Torygraph.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/18539457.norman-tebbit-telegraph-cant-let-off-hook-rewriting-nazi-history/

      • AB 10.1.1

        "Living with this virus is going to be the only show in town…"

        "Living with the virus" is a completely meaningless phrase – because every response to date by every government around the world is a version of "living with the virus". That's because the virus exists – and so by definition we have to live with it. These different versions of living with the virus do differ from each other in how much death and disease they will tolerate in the community.

        What we are seeing is an appropriation of "living with the virus" to mean one particular version of living with the virus that has a particularly high tolerance for death and disease. It is scummy propaganda of the highest order – because instead of having to justify their high tolerance for death and disease, its sociopathic proponents can hide behind an illusion of inevitability. A decent media with half a brain would shoot down this filthy deceit.

    • Incognito 10.2

      How do you fancy your chances of surviving an epidemic of influenza or Covid-19 in NZ with open borders? Do ya feel lucky?

      • alwyn 10.2.1

        When I have had my 2 doses of the vaccine, and we have booster shots available I think my chances of surviving, even at my age, are pretty good. I might get ill but I am unlikely to die from the disease.

        With those precautions I don't think it will be any more dangerous than flu is. Yes there will be a chance of dying but I will accept that for the chance to travel overseas, and have people travel here.

        After all, a complete closure of the borders and having no one enter the country without a couple of weeks of quarantine is going to end sometime anyway. Politicians are never going to accept that limitation on their lifestyle.

        So I feel lucky. What about you, punk?

    • Robert Guyton 10.3

      I feel your excitement, Alwyn!

    • Gabby 10.4

      Got to wonder why the sudden brit campaign by Murderoch to slag off the NZ response. Right wing regime seeks likeminded for free trade and virus swapping?

      • McFlock 10.4.1

        passing the "130,000 dead" threshold might have some asking questions about whether it's really "over" despite all the partying…

    • Well, somehow I can't insert a text extract from FB so I'll just type what was said by Ciaran Irvine:

      "The right wing media here (and also in the rest of the world) NEED Jacinda to fail at this – because how she has handled Covid indicts them all as not just clueless spoofers but in many countries actual mass murderers,

      "The Right has been utterly, catastrophically, psychotically Wrong all over the world at every single step of this pandemic, so Aotearoa's success thus far infuriates them and they NEED us to fail."

      No idea who Ciaran Irvine is, but their comment seems absolutely to the point.

  11. Joe90 11

    Majority responce from a group of at risk teens offered covid vaccination – nope, not having that, the gummint will use it to track me.

    Well done to the fucks who platformed/spread this shit.

    //

  12. Reality 12

    What an appalling rant from Kate Hawkesby in the Herald yesterday(?). Venomous woman filled with loathing. Actually that shows in her face, as are the embedded sneers of Hosking.

    • Morrissey 12.1

      Those two deserve one another.

      • Cooper oil 12.1.1

        I set my radio alarm to her show in the morning

        She is aural shit the bed

      • Johnr 12.1.2

        I understand they have children and one has to worry about the effect those two nasty negative people, from the same household have on them

    • roblogic 12.2

      Best response

  13. joe90 13

    Thread.

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1429560918917074947.html

    • miravox 13.1

      That's an excellent thread

      I've also heard so much commentary about how lockdowns create uncertainty and how this is difficult for people to manage. It leads to emotional stress and mental health problems (I have no doubt about this being the case for some people).

      Personally, I like living with the certainty that we will have lockdowns rather than the uncertainly of who I’m going to contract a life-altering / life-threatening illness from if we have to “learn to live” with the virus in the community before we understand and can safely manage the game of catch-up between variants and vaccines.

      I do understand that it is really important to have certainty about what you need to do – tomorrow, in a week’s time, in a month. What I don’t get is how the people who are upset by the uncertainty lockdowns bring, are probably not the same people who worry about the uncertainty that people in the precariat live with every single day of their working lives.

  14. @LewSOS is being a bit trollish today… maybe he got out of the wrong side of bed this morning. Keeps equating socialism with mass murder. Calls himself a moderate?!

    • weka 14.1

      Does he?

      He's using a specific definition of socialism. Here's a list of socialist states. He's not wrong about the lots of murdering thing. Not so sure he's right about there being very few examples what have been non-murdering, or whether it's a feature of socialism rather than other sociopolitical dynamics.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states

      • roblogic 14.1.1

        The trollishness comes from not engaging the original argument for economic justice and obsession with counting dead bodies. Bloody revolutions were a desperate response to unbearable suffering, Marxism was the vehicle in some cases. But bloody revolutions were also necessary to overthrow feudalism and institute democracy; it's just that they didn't happen in living memory

        • weka 14.1.1.1

          The deaths in Stalinist Russia weren't just from the revolution though, right? They went on for a long time and were extremely excessive.

          • McFlock 14.1.1.1.1

            Well, there is a discussion to be had about whether the "revolution" is restricted solely to the overthrow of the monarchy, or includes (in the case of the USSR) the following process of repelling multiple massive invasions and turning an agrarian-peasant economy into an industrial power.

            But really, it all turns into a "no true Scotsman" argument: socialist nations that didn't get particularly murdery get labelled "social democratic" or whatevs while capitalist countries that get murdery are "imperialist" rather than capitalist, and on the other side murdery socialist govts get called "failed dictatorships of the proletariat" (at best) and reasonably stable and humane mixed economies have their benefits attributed to socialism and negatives attributed to capitalism.

            • solkta 14.1.1.1.1.1

              Yes in Marxist theory the revolution is not over until the state "withers away".

            • weka 14.1.1.1.1.2

              What did you think of Lew's original point, that many people viewing socialism through a freedom vs totalitarianism lens is due to socialism's history of murder rather than contemporary lack of class analysis? (I'd guess it is both).

              • McFlock

                Meh. Seems largely bollocks to me (especially in regards to yanks worried about "socialism", but we have it here, too).

                "Socialism" as a scareword is devoid of meaning, it's a label applied to a number of different nations without reference to the situations faced at the time.

                Is that label "socialism" more or less murdery than capitalist/imperialist nations? That's like arguing which billionaire is more wealthy today – comparisons are pretty meaningless when you get to that level. Take Cambodia, and then the Bengal famine. Did Beria kill more people than Zaharoff? Who really cares.

                And that's with a reasonably unbiased assessment – throw on decades of propaganda in both directions, and most people wouldn't recognise the polsci definition of "socialism" or "capitalism" if it hit them in the face (and the latter often does).

                But start talking about bosses and fair tax rates, and pretty soon the people who think socialism is a bit murdery start supporting policies that get them healthcare – until Fox calls it "socialism".

        • pat 14.1.1.2

          Tis disingenuous to draw attention to 'socialist' revolutions and death tolls.

          Societal breakdowns generally involve murder and death irrespective of their 'ism'

          it is entirely likely that a future death toll will be laid at the door of 'environmentalism'.

  15. McFlock 15

    Further to the idea that overseas politicians and media need us to surrender in order to stop making them look callous and/or incompetent: scomo thinks delta resistance is futile and we need to get out of the cave.

    • Incognito 15.1

      I quite like Plato’s cave allegory, ever since I had to translate that piece of text. This whole pandemic apparently started with a bat out of hell. So, staying in the cave sounds pretty safe. I wonder what cavemen would have done when a cave bear tried to enter the cave they were in: would they fight for their lives and defend themselves and the cave or run away and be exposed to all other dangers as well as having the bear chasing them? We will never know the answer, of course.

  16. In Vino 16

    I would like to think that with those words he has formed the basis of a great irony.

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