Open mike 26/06/2016

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 26th, 2016 - 122 comments
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122 comments on “Open mike 26/06/2016 ”

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  1. Paul 1
    26 June 2016 at 6:55 am

    Another day in John Key’s neo-liberal nightmare.
    We have become a cruel, greedy, uncaring and selfish nation under his wretched leadership.

    Selfish, greedy.
    Max Key.

    David Slack: ‘Greed, and hair gel, is good’

    New Zealand. It might not be a great place to bring up children any more but it’s still a really good one to bring up Max. If he and his friends like the idea of a Wall Street career and aren’t too troubled by the deepening gulf between the vastly wealthy and the poor, we could hardly be shocked and ask: “where did that come from?”
    He might say I’m judging him without really knowing him. Perhaps the next video will make things more clear. But there does seem to be a pattern and I’m not picking up much of a Buddhist monk vibe.
    What the Max character seems to be saying is: “Greed, and hair gel, is good.” There’s no overt political statement in that, but in a funny kind of way, as his Dad likes to say, it’s political all the way through.’

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/social-networking/81397094/david-slack-greed-and-hair-gel-is-good

    • marty mars 1.1
      26 June 2016 at 8:31 am

      it is creepy being so concerned about the son.

      • tc 1.1.1
        26 June 2016 at 10:04 am

        Yes he is 100% distraction so criticism just gives it oxygen when it needs to be ignored along with all the others celebrity reality BS.

      • ianmac 1.1.2
        26 June 2016 at 10:06 am

        Though Max does push himself into the front line with his father’s pride and his blessing. Otherwise who would mind what he did. Didn’t Thatcher have an errant son?

      • Naki man 1.1.3
        26 June 2016 at 1:31 pm

        “it is creepy being so concerned about the son”

        Yes, i have thought Pauls obsession with the Key boy is very creepy.

  2. Paul 2
    26 June 2016 at 7:03 am

    Another day in John Key’s neo-liberal nightmare.
    We have become a cruel, greedy, uncaring and selfish nation under his wretched leadership.

    Greedy.
    New Zealand property investors.

    ‘Housing ‘mess’ has spread from Auckland to Tauranga
    New Zealand First leader and MP Winston Peters last night told a crowd of 150 people that Auckland’s “housing mess” had spread to Tauranga.
    Speaking at Matua Hall, Mr Peters said Auckland’s problems had become Tauranga’s, with the influx of Aucklanders fleeing the housing shortage and creating one in Tauranga.
    Property prices and rent prices were going through the roof and he acknowledged those in desperate situations, living in cars, tents and caravans.
    Mr Peters said in the last quarter of 2015 figures showed 29 per cent of houses sold in Tauranga were to Aucklanders.’

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/bay-of-plenty-times/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503343&objectid=11663358

    • tc 2.1
      26 June 2016 at 10:06 am

      Hamilton also

      • Colonial Viper 2.1.1
        26 June 2016 at 10:15 am

        yep buying up of houses in Hamilton for investment is huge at the moment.

    • ianmac 2.2
      26 June 2016 at 10:08 am

      I saw a headline from Bryan Gould predicting house price bubble burst, but can’t find it now.

        • Ad 2.2.1.1
          26 June 2016 at 3:24 pm

          The Reserve Bank have been tracking the same risks.

          And yet, all the factors that are holding up Auckland’s real estate are still tracking there for quite a while.

          1. Net immigration has tracked up, is still tracking up, and looks like it will continue for at least a couple more years.

          2. There are not enough houses, either to rent or to buy. This has been building for years, and will take years of building to even out, just a little.

          3. Inflation rates are at rock bottom, and tracking to stay this way for several more years.

          4. Our tax regime is still highly favorable to real estate. This appears to be the case whoever is in power in 2017, so it’s stable for at least 4 years.

          You all know these factors, they are not going away.
          There’s a risk of an Auckland real estate crisis. Of course. But let’s not overplay it.

    • Incognito 2.3
      26 June 2016 at 7:18 pm

      If Winston Peters has his way he’d drastically reduce the number of ‘immigrants’ coming from Auckland to the Hinterland and ‘interview’ every new-comer at the ‘borders’.

      New Zealand is for all New Zealanders and Peters is preying on people’s fears again; same tune, same hymn sheet, same old same old.

  3. Paul 3
    26 June 2016 at 7:09 am

    Another day in John Key’s neo-liberal nightmare.
    We have become a cruel, greedy, uncaring and selfish nation under his wretched leadership.

    Greedy.
    New Zealand property investors.

    ‘Market tough for renters
    A Whangarei mother has “given up hope” searching for a rental because of high demand and a spike which has seen the average rent increase by about $30 per week over the past six months.
    Kristie Lowe has been trying to find a rental closer to her family in Ruakaka so she is able to work full time. But an increase in rent prices has made the hunt difficult.
    “It’s a pretty crap situation. If you apply for a house you can’t get one simply because you’re like me and have a bad credit rating, or you’re a single mum on the benefit,” she said.
    “I’ve given up hope.”
    Renee Wilkinson, new business consultant at Harcourts Just Rentals Whangarei, has been tracking the rent increase since January this year by going on Trade Me, adding rental prices of properties listed in Whangarei together and dividing that number by the number of houses listed. In January the average rent was $338.33 and up to the end of this week it was $368.20.
    “In six months, that’s quite a large increase,” she said.
    Ms Wilkinson said there were a number of things contributing to the price increase – including homeowners who had become “accidental” landlords after the market crashed in 2007 and have decided to sell and take advantage of the today’s housing market.
    “Basically houses are being sold but there aren’t enough to go around. Based on what I’ve noticed, I can’t see it [the rent increase] is going to stop any time soon.”
    ……………
    Ms Lowe said she had been to Housing New Zealand and was currently on a waiting list.’

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503450&objectid=11662998

  4. Paul 4
    26 June 2016 at 7:12 am

    Another day in John Key’s neo-liberal nightmare.
    We have become a cruel, greedy, uncaring and selfish nation under his wretched leadership.

    Greedy, selfish, uncaring.
    New Zealand’s private landlords

    One of the worst years for housing problems, says union.

    More people require emergency accommodation in Palmerston North but community members say housing options are too sparse.
    About 20 people attended the Manawatu Tenants Union AGM on Friday, where various community members spoke of growing concerns about the city’s housing.
    Social worker Debs Radley told Stuff she had seen an increase in people needing emergency accommodation in the city.
    She was currently working with four families living in motels because of the city’s shortage of housing and emergency accommodation.
    But big weekend events for the city, which increased tourism numbers, also booked out motel rooms that could be needed to accommodate homeless people.
    These were people on the brink of homelessness with nowhere to go, she said.
    In the meeting Massey University advocacy co-ordinator Kerry Howe said the price of increasing rent was still a growing concern for many students.
    She said despite the increasing prices in rent there was little, if any, change to accommodation supplements for students and community members.
    TradeMe property statistics show nationally, the median weekly rent has increased by 4.8 per cent over the year.
    While rental prices in the Manawatu and Whanganui areas have increased by 8 per cent over the year.
    In the meeting Manawatu Tenants Union co-ordinator Kevin Reilly said this year had been one of the worst years he had seen in terms of housing problems in the city.
    He said issues ranged from people having problems with landlords and high rents to others in desperate need of social or emergency housing.’

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/81431262/one-of-the-worst-years-for-housing-problems-says-union

  5. Paupial 5
    26 June 2016 at 7:20 am

    Firstly: I do not condone child abuse (to preempt any facile splutterings), & trigger warnings aplenty for those who chose to follow the links (the quotes should be low impact).

    Is anyone else uncomfortable by the way the Moko Rangitoheriri killing is being exploted? This was in this morning’s ODT:

    Dunedin members of the Sensible Sentencing Trust will lead a peaceful march to the Dunedin courthouse on Monday… Co-ordinators of the Dunedin SST march, Amy Telfer Chiles and Robert Washick… A recent arrival from the United States, Mr Washick said New Zealand was “a paradise” and he wanted to ensure the country avoided going down a “bad road”.

    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/388037/sentencing-group-march

    Googling Washick shows that he is involved in Rotary, and works; “Yacht Buying, Selling and Chartering”. I wish I could be more certain that he had no involvement with Cerco &/or isn’t riding a cause for publicity. Monday the 27th of June is the day set for sentencing:

    The man and woman accused of killing a Taupo 3-year-old have pleaded guilty to manslaughter and ill-treating a child.

    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/381774/pair-admit-taupo-boys-manslaughter

    The main contention of the SST seems to be that they should have been sentenced for murder. The problem is that murder implies intention and that doesn’t seem to have been provable in this case. This is supported by the police adding the lesser charges in February of this year, after the killers had plead not guilty to murder in September 2015. It reads more like a desperate covering up of abuse leading to death.

    All kinds of trigger warnings if you follow this link:

    Moko and his sister were left in the care of the couple on June 12 for what was expected to be a short period of time.

    During the two months Moko was living with Haerewa and Shailer, their animosity towards the toddler grew.

    Haerewa told police he “didn’t like [Moko’s] ways” and that he was “angry at him for taking us for granted”.

    The couple began assaulting the toddler, with the severity of the assaults escalating…

    On August 10 Shailer phoned 111 saying Moko had fallen from a wood pile the day before, sustaining severe bruising. She told the operator that he had been fine earlier in the day but was now “really cold, unconscious, not breathing properly and that his stomach was really hard”…

    [The Mother] said Shailer was in regular contact until two weeks before Moko’s death.

    “Her phone was off and I couldn’t call to talk to him. Those are signs that I should’ve picked up on.”

    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/383481/mokos-mother-speaks-out-about-sons-death

    What makes me uncomfortable is that the Sensible Sentencing Trust were adamently opposed to the amendment of section 59. Their solution never seems to be prevention, only ever longer incarceration – I generally refer to them as “Predatory Prisoning”. Read this McVicar editorial from 2009 if you need confirmation:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/hawkes-bay-today/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503462&objectid=10984999

    This Unicef piece from 2014 seems to coincide with my understanding:

    Along with the Section 59 law came increased public
    awareness that violence against children shouldn’t
    be tolerated. Increased awareness and reporting are
    important for ensuring action is taken on behalf of children
    living with violence. The law is part of creating social
    norms that don’t tolerate physical punishment.
    In the period 2008-2013 there was a dramatic increase
    in notifications to Child, Youth and Family. There was a
    60 percent increase in notifications (representing 60,000
    additional notifications) and a 40 percent increase in
    substantiated cases of child abuse and neglect…

    However, child abuse is a complex problem requiring
    complex solutions. Anyone interested in reducing child
    abuse must focus on ensuring that the appropriate legal
    protections are in place and we have a culture of respect
    and care for children, that parents are equipped with child
    management skills, that parents are well supported and
    have good mental health, that alcohol and drug abuse are
    reduced, and that families are not living with the constant
    stress caused by poverty.

    https://www.unicef.org.nz/__data/assets/pdf_file/0013/11281/Section59informationsheet.pdf

    [Hmm, this is very long for OM – perhaps better suited as a post? The problem is that I’m only going to sporadically near a keyboard today to repond to comments. If someone else wants to take it up and put there own spin on it that’d be fine by me.]

    Anyway, my suggestion is that anyone who agrees with me should go along to the marches with; “yay for Bradford!”, “Better funding for CYFs”, “Enforce s59” banners.

  6. Paul 6
    26 June 2016 at 7:21 am

    Another day in John Key’s neo-liberal nightmare.
    We have become a cruel, greedy, uncaring and selfish nation under his wretched leadership.

    Yet there are people who still care and who are unselfish.
    Marie Retimana represents the best of New Zealand.
    A government that does not ensure its citizens are not paid enough to feed themselves represents the worst of New Zealand.

    Helping the needy through social media
    Tokoroa’s Kelly Marie Retimana and her family of six decided to gather extra food while doing their shopping last week to help out a family in need that they came across on Facebook.
    Retimana said she made the “on the spot decision” while out doing her weekly shop.
    She saw the specials and just bought extra for a food parcel.
    Having felt the struggle themselves in the past, Retimana and her family were often giving to people in need.
    “It feels good”, Retimana said.
    “We (my family) have felt the struggle and it doesn’t feel nice, so when we do have enough to share we do so happily, every time.”
    The number of people each week who struggle with buying food is high, Food Bank volunteer Ruth Ramea said.
    Basic supplies are given in food parcels such non-perishable foods, flour rice and
    recently milk powder, which is all funded through donations and trustees.
    The situation is made worse because there are a lot of people moving from out of town, she said.
    The Tokoroa Food Bank helps families from areas as far apart as Lichfield, Tokoroa and Atiamuri.
    Ramea said the year is constant, but Christmas and school holidays are the busiest times.
    The team of about 30 staff involving volunteers, trustees and helpers, buy and collect the food to put into parcels, but Ramea said more was always needed.
    “We are always looking for donations.”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/south-waikato-news/80479414/helping-the-needy-through-social-media

    • Paupial 6.1
      26 June 2016 at 10:25 am

      Paul

      If you’re going to spam OM everyday by cut&pasting entire articles, could you at least learn how to use blockquotes (or even simple quotation marks). You surely don’t want to be a plagiarist – support journalism by leaving people a reason to click on the link to the original article.

      • Paul 6.1.1
        26 June 2016 at 12:19 pm

        Paupial

        I try and use quote marks.
        I try and edit reports so only excerpts are used.
        If you look at some of the stories I have referenced, they are in provincial papers, so hopefully, I am increasing the readership of these articles and creating greater awareness of these journalists’ work.

        Have you a problem with my highlighting the housing crisis in New Zealand?

        • Pasupial 6.1.1.1
          26 June 2016 at 12:55 pm

          Paul

          If that was your attempt at using quote marks, then it was an abject failure. Everything from; “Helping the needy…” in the third paragraph, through to; “…looking for donations” just before the link was a direct quote. The only quote marks are those in the original article which you then cut&pasted in total (the only change I could see is that you deleted the many spaces between paragraphs, which admittedly is an improvement).

          What I have a problem with, is the way you mass dump your spam onto OM every single fucking day. Today you posted at; 6:55, 7:03, 7:09, 7:21, & 7:37 am, with barely enough original material between these five to fill one post. Your slogan does at least seem original (though just as cut&pasted), and is catchy enough:

          Another day in John Key’s neo-liberal nightmare.
          We have become a cruel, greedy, uncaring and selfish nation under his wretched leadership.

          See how easy that was; the FAQ in the header bar will tell you how. [Edit – here I’ve even found it for you:]

          http://thestandard.org.nz/faq/comment-formatting/#quoting

          The problem with your spamming OM is that it makes everyone else’s comments less salient. Say there are 15 posts in OM in a day (probably more like 10 since you’ve been doing your little routine), that means a third (if not half) of today’s posts are yours. However, despite your obsessive firsting of this forum, you will see that your posts now generally have short discussion threads (especially by the last of them). Why? Because you are not saying anything new, or adding anything much beyond unattributed quotes.

          If you think that you are highlighting anything for me anymore except the imminent RSI in my scrolling finger you are sadly mistaken.

          • BM 6.1.1.1.1
            26 June 2016 at 12:59 pm

            He’s the new Penny Bright.

            • reason 6.1.1.1.1.1
              26 June 2016 at 5:15 pm

              I think Paul highlights the relentless failings of a uncaring incompetent government ………… they are a disgrace from which there is no hiding.

              Once people read Dirty Politics they can understand why John Keys Government supports things like tax havens while hurting poor children and vulnrable families.

              Freeze them in cars over winter ……………. poison them with fecal soup river water in summer.

              Check out their values and jokes in parliament …..

              “David Seymour: In what century did the wine-box inquiry take place?

              Rt Hon JOHN KEY: One so far back I can hardly remember it.”

              Also note JKs admiration for a guy who attempted to steal $2.2 billion of revenue………………. That would have been a HUGE handout to the aussie banks.

              Did shewan support the wine box tax scam? http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/8515361/Money-trail-leads-home-to-New-Zealand

              • BM …
                26 June 2016 at 5:23 pm

                Nah, it’s boring spamming.

                Same article, video posted again and again, seriously you’ve got to wonder if Paul isn’t a bot.

                • reason …
                  26 June 2016 at 6:06 pm

                  whereas we do not have to wonder if BM is a miserable troll.

                  I keep asking you to drink a glass of Johns river water while wearing white disco pants ……….

                  just to show how full of shit you are……

                • Paul …
                  26 June 2016 at 6:12 pm

                  Lots of different articles.
                  All showing up the wretched government you defend.

        • Ad 6.1.1.2
          26 June 2016 at 3:33 pm

          Be a better author:

          – Be succinct
          – You better have a clear and original twist if you’re using someone else’s material
          – Be a punchy, not preachy, author
          – Have a sense of humor (at least about yourself)
          – Don’t take attacks personally, you might learn something
          – Try and imagine being as good a writer as your favorite columnist. Bin the drafts that aren’t as good for a while.

          I betcha if you can be a better author than the current authors, the quality of your writing will get more hits and hence be rewarded with better placement.

          And if you can’t be as good as a current author, just admit it, and practise until you can be.

          Time to step up to the plate Paul.

          • b waghorn 6.1.1.2.1
            26 June 2016 at 5:55 pm

            Good advice sensei !

          • Sans Cle 6.1.1.2.2
            26 June 2016 at 11:52 pm

            Paul I appreciate the watch you keep on some of the deteriorating social conditions in NZ. Your scanning and synopsis is very important. However I also agree with Ad, that it could be condensed into one post.

  7. Paul 7
    26 June 2016 at 7:37 am

    Another day in John Key’s neo-liberal nightmare.
    We have become a cruel, greedy, uncaring and selfish nation under his wretched leadership.

    Yet there are people who still care and who are unselfish.
    Park Up represents the best of New Zealand.
    A government that does not house its citizens adequately represents the worst of New Zealand.

    ‘Park Up For Homes camp out on Beehive backdoor.
    Around 150 people have gathered in Wellington, to sleep in their cars in a show of solidarity with those who have to.
    The group Park Up For Homes has been joined by politicians, city councillors, the Child Poverty Action Group and everyday families, young and old for “Park Up Parliament.”
    Spokeswoman Bex Rillstone said it’s just one part of a nation-wide campaign for better homes.
    “We’re outside the Wellington Cathedral of St Paul, which is just on the doorstep of the Beehive, and we are here to say to the Government that we need better housing policies.”‘

    http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/national/park-up-for-homes-camp-out-on-beehive-backdoor/

    More expected at Park Up For Homes events
    200 people are expected to attend each of the two Park Up For Homes events tonight.

    One is being held at Wellington Cathedral, opposite The Beehive, and the other is taking place at the Otara Town Centre carpark in Auckland.
    They follow one in Mangere last week that attracted around 1000 people.
    Child Poverty Action Group housing spokesman Alan Johnson said it’s a chance for people to make their voices heard.
    “If you’re not happy with the way in which we’re failing many tens of thousands of children with their housing, then just come up and participate in a quiet, peaceful protest.”
    Mr Johnson said it’s also a chance to show support and acknowledge those who are doing it tough, living on the streets and in carparks.
    He said ordinary New Zealanders are now starting to understand the problems poorer people are facing.
    “And I think they’re becoming more concerned about that, and I think that’s starting to change the political response to this.”
    Another Park Up For Homes event, organised by boxer David Tua, is scheduled for Onehunga on the 2nd of July.
    Others are in the pipeline for Napier and Papakura.

    http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/national/more-expected-at-park-up-for-homes-events/

    Strong community support for Park Up Otara
    https://www.maoritelevision.com/news/regional/strong-community-support-park-otara

  8. save nz 8
    26 June 2016 at 8:52 am

    Why they voted ‘leave’.

    Meet 10 Britons who voted to leave the EU

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/meet-10-britons-who-voted-to-leave-the-eu

  9. Pat 9
    26 June 2016 at 8:57 am

    the pressure is showing….they are really working this one hard …

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/81429047/small-number-of-taxpayers-bear-the-brunt-of-new-zealand-tax-bill

    “By comparison, the top 3 per cent of individual income earners, earning more than $150,000 a year, pay 24 per cent of all tax received.

    Mark Keating, a senior lecturer in tax at the University of Auckland Business School, said the idea of “net tax” – the amount paid after credits and benefits were deducted – was hard for some people to get their heads around.

    But he said people who received any benefit, or superannuation, as well as people who worked and met the criteria for Working for Families tax credits could end up with a net result that was negative or neutral.”

    A tax lecturer and an accountant making misleading statements on net tax positions and conveniently ignoring half the forms of taxation and the impact of time……even the “balancing ” view fails to note this.

    Slanted reporting, advertorial or sponsored piece.

    • Colonial Viper 9.1
      26 June 2016 at 9:01 am

      if the courtiers to the power elite want more people to pay more income tax, then the dickheads should increase the income of ordinary people.

      • Richardrawshark 9.1.1
        26 June 2016 at 9:20 am

        That would be to bloody logical for these people CV.

        Everyone including the dump rat knows wages need to rise dramatically.

        Sit back and listen to the stupid, weak and crazy excuses they make for not doing it.

        Why is it National, seem to work for an entity called business, and not a person who actually votes.

      • Pat 9.1.2
        26 June 2016 at 9:21 am

        there is no antipathy between the haves and the have nots in NZ, it is an overseas problem.

        • Paul 9.1.2.1
          26 June 2016 at 9:33 am

          If you say so

          • Pat 9.1.2.1.1
            26 June 2016 at 9:47 am

            “Gareth Kiernan, an economist at Infometrics, said the data showed that New Zealand did not have the same issues that had driven protests such as the Occupy Wall Street movement, which rallied against a rich “top 1 per cent”. ”

            was a sarc tab necessary?

        • Colonial Viper 9.1.2.2
          26 June 2016 at 9:41 am

          one word: Talleys

        • Richardrawshark 9.1.2.3
          26 June 2016 at 9:57 am

          Should we dumb it down just a bit, for the reason any prospective people who visit the site, I would hope we all have a gut wish to show them National and capitalism, John Keys policies are failing and there are better options,

          I wonder how many of the people who come here straight off understand the meaning of the intellectual conversations here? Antipathy?

          It’s all great using big words and making out we are not stupid and know what the word economy is, but we should not lose our ability to make our points using language we commonly employ day to day

          I don’t know what others think about what I said, it’s just a thought that’s been bothering me for some reason and keeps nagging at me to blurt out.

          This is not a go at you either Pat , I have no issues with you at all mate, it just came out at this point of reading and seeing the word antipathy.

          • Pat 9.1.2.3.1
            26 June 2016 at 10:04 am

            my apologies….hadnt considered antipathy an intellectual word, and computers provide instant access to explanation if any are unsure.

            I was expressing my disgust at what passes for journalism now….among other things.

            • Paupial 9.1.2.3.1.1
              26 June 2016 at 10:17 am

              If antipathy is to be binned, then can we still use sympathy? Animosity is a bigger word, though roughly similar and widely understood. Not everyone uses language the same. Should we not use Māori terms because we want to; “dumb it down”? And our conflicting opinions and discussions might put “prospective people” off the site too – why don’t we all just endlessly type: “rugby is great, mate!”, at one another.

              In response to your earlier comment Pat – evidently; “a sarc tab [was] necessary”. I should probably use one myself at that.

              • marty mars …
                26 June 2016 at 10:44 am

                Have you lost your ‘s’?

              • Richardrawshark …
                26 June 2016 at 11:03 am

                Ouch.. but damn good reply.. lol damn good.

                Perhaps the fact I had not seen the word antipathy often, in my circle and had to check I knew the correct meaning was the reason I actually wrote that.

                Bloody googling wastes to much time when your a commoner like me.

                And some bloody spell checker here auto changes my typing. Sometimes when I re read I wonder how a certain word got there I never typed?

    • Greg 9.2
      26 June 2016 at 9:29 am

      With wage growth being barely near inflation, if not on the lower side,
      few workers will be affected by bracket creep. However, the fiction creation of the average wage in total statistics figures paints another picture.

      https://home.kpmg.com/nz/en/home/insights/2016/05/nz-budget-2016-bracket-creep.html

      In December 2014 John Key made a prediction that wages would rise in 2015 by 3.6%
      I believe this was on the back of receiving reports about power company share sell of, and CEO’s pay rises, National have used this wonderful fictional creation statistic to crow about economic performance and workers income is wonderfully improving.
      This also gives opportunity for overseas landlords to raise rents, .

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11466255

      It would be nice to see some challenges to National in Parliament when they make these fictional economic claims, but their is none.

      Because I belong to a union, we are getting a begrudged 2% pay increase next year, the first one hopefully above inflation, since 2008

    • riffer 9.3
      26 June 2016 at 9:29 am

      Seems false equivalence to state the top 3% pay 24% of all tax as if the $$$ were what counted. Those that can, should.

      As CV said, the problem lies not in the rebates paid to those who don’t earn enough to exist in our society, but that we have a society that is unable to remunerate a significant percentage of the population enough for them to exist in it without additional state benefits.

      • Richardrawshark 9.3.1
        26 June 2016 at 9:47 am

        Wouldn’t personal tax be trivial compared to the tax take from businesses for the governments coffers, ?

        If this is in fact so, dropping the business tax rate effected the coffers far more than any changes to people’s personal tax rates.

        Secondly switching business up a percent would probably allow us to drop personal tax more.

        If the above is true this could be used to curry voter favour if spun correctly.

      • Greg 9.3.2
        26 June 2016 at 9:47 am

        After nearly a decade of working for families rebates for the breeders, and Kiwisaver being used to offset wage increases, workers are now going backward without the compounding wage increases to counter rising living costs.
        What more evidence is there that is needed why NZs productivity is low.

        National are also relying on fictional economic prosperity in trade deals.
        There is simply no evidence primary producers increase their employment costs on the back of higher export volumes, in fact the opposite happens.
        Hence why there has been no media reports on the Dairy economy over the last decade, it will show employment costs reducing. Despite the Rock Star Economy preceding 2008, Did farmers employ more kiwi workers or immigrants.

        Or do a report on apples, any increase in employment costs since the Aussie market opened up, meanwhile apples have tripled in price in the supermarket, for export rejected cases.

        • Richardrawshark 9.3.2.1
          26 June 2016 at 11:29 am

          Do automated milking sheds increase or decrease staff costs?

          Automation is the enemy of personal employment.

          • Greg 9.3.2.1.1
            26 June 2016 at 2:59 pm

            Meat works will all be automated with a decade, especially when the Chinese own all of them,

            If non living entity corporations can be given legal status as a person, Reagan did this,
            =then robots should be taxed,
            overseas owned businesses are welfared off tax …
            making corporations pay tax on their real profit will come to nothing.

    • DH 9.4
      26 June 2016 at 9:37 am

      I despair whenever I see this bullshit promulgated. It makes a mockery of our education system that so few people can immediately see through it. We all did percentages and averages at school, I expected it would be second nature for most of us.

      The actual claims are false or misleading and the net tax concept they portray is worthless.

      The last chart I saw can be found here…

      https://www.beehive.govt.nz/sites/all/files/Net_Tax_Paid_by_Households,_estimated_for_the_tax_year_ending_31_March_2015.png

      It’s patently absurd and dishonest. The overwhelming majority of beneficiaries are on low incomes so of course the low income households will show more Govt transfers than the high income households (yes their numbers include welfare beneficiaries)

      • KJT 9.4.1
        26 June 2016 at 11:30 am

        Net tax, excluding petrol tax, user pays fees, GST etc etc is meaningless, but looks good in reinforcing the right wing narrative.

    • Ad 9.5
      26 June 2016 at 10:06 am

      GST has been spectacularly regressive.

      As is petrol tax.

      And school fees.

      Mr Keating would do well to show the full cumulative weight of all taxes, then work that weifht out across all income brackets.

      Just a couple of intelligent bar graphs would do it.

      But no, he would rather just make a political point.

    • save nz 9.6
      26 June 2016 at 12:42 pm

      @ Pat Quite frankly would not surprise me at all. The reality is that PAYE workers are one of the few groups paying tax. Those who are self employed, through trusts and businesses etc can manipulate their income legally and use copious legal loop holes to pay less tax. Obviously we seem to want to attract offshore investors who don’t pay GST… corporations that can manipulate their income so they make losses on millions in income…etc etc (sarc). Those on lower incomes are now propped up by the state for their employees with working for families, accommodation benefit etc

      The problem is that the government are just not interested in looking at the 21st century globalism, and how to make tax fair again. They are certainly not interested in looking at why transnational profits are now one of our biggest exports. in front of milk powder and fishing.

      • Pat 9.6.1
        26 June 2016 at 10:03 pm

        one of the aspects of WFF that appears ignored is it is a temporary position….those receiving the benefit of it only receive it for a limited period and then return to a net positive tax position, often a very short period….this sort of framing (demonstrated in the linked article) pisses me off no end especially when so called experts are quoted and such outrageous bullshit is unchallenged by the journalist.

    • Richardrawshark 10.1
      26 June 2016 at 9:32 am

      Ok I made a statement Corbyn was in the leave camp yesterday and this comes out.

      I repeated this fact too mum, who explained in detail to me, Corbyn was definitely in the LEAVE camp personally, he was Pusauded by party members to vote remain, or back the remain camp.

      She has just returned from ten years there and is also a UK citizen born there and lived there about half her life, she’s now 72. Basing m,y facts on mummy, but I have to go with her inside knowledge.

      HE was always Pro Leave, on a personal basis, but party politics have meddled again.

      Hope that clears it up.

      • Colonial Viper 10.1.1
        26 June 2016 at 10:12 am

        Corbyn is closer to ordinary working people than most of his MPs. He should be forcing them to his beliefs not the other way around. He’ll be gone if he keeps this up.

        • Richardrawshark 10.1.1.1
          26 June 2016 at 10:19 am

          Mum doesn’t like him, she’s saying he’s more a green than a Labour. She uses a lot of nasty words about him when I ask. throw back, cardy wearing lib, err. not nice stuff.

          Unfortunately my mums a love Thatcher woman, something excited a lot of women about a woman rising to British PM. She’s from that era.

          We have fun convo’s here, I have pretty much won the war with intellect and a better argument showing her outcomes of policies, she hates key now, can’t understand the policies and thinks he’s batshit crazy along with all the other National MP’s, she also uses the word arrogant a lot.

          Not bad for a Tory to come here and in(3 weeks ish) hate national!!!!

          • Colonial Viper 10.1.1.1.1
            26 June 2016 at 10:26 am

            ha very well done!!!

            • Richardrawshark 10.1.1.1.1.1
              26 June 2016 at 10:35 am

              I know, CV, and like me she is no slouch in the upstairs dept. But the one thing that helped and I had not seen it before or thought of it this way.

              Too a British born Tory, it appeared after she got to know things, John Key is not a Tory, Nor does it appear he rolls the Tory way..if you get it.

              The BIGGEST epiphany is John Key is a Tory Hoon, he acts as PM like they imagine a Labour leader would behave.

              He has no dignity, He does not hold himself as a Tory would in power. He is a fact a common born YOB.

              HA

              Real Tories don’t run and hide. refuse interviews. At All. Thatcher did not hide.

              • Colonial Viper …
                26 June 2016 at 2:07 pm

                Common born and state house raised. Neuveau riche, even worse. Clearly wasn’t taught the ‘proper’ etiquette and demeanour from youth.

                An interesting observation you’ve made here.

        • Richardrawshark 10.1.1.2
          26 June 2016 at 10:29 am

          I got as gut feeling from the way mum goes on about him, he’s toast, he’s not viable, he’s a joke.

          His party is heavily divided over him, he has to go. Apprently

  11. Richardrawshark 11
    26 June 2016 at 10:13 am

    Perhaps today is a day to rejoice.

    The people of Britain just slapped that non elected body in Brussels a right slap in the face, and a great, grading on their performance. If Brussels was doing such a great job of running the EU perhaps the British may not have quit.

    It’s also a giant slap in the face to Germany and Frau Merkel no one likes(gen) and especially how She seems to be running the purse strings. Politically correct or not, most grass roots Britain’s despise Germany having ANY power.

    A giant slap over Brussels and immigration. The thing they feared came true as soon as it happened mass immigration and people coming to claim instant benefits.

    Immigration policies that Key thinks are different but the grass roots feelings are the same here.

    To many immigrants changes from interest in their culture, to crikey they are everywhere.

    • Sabine 11.1
      26 June 2016 at 10:15 am

      https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/25/boris-johnson-michael-gove-eu-liars?CMP=fb_gu

      “Now they have won and what Kipling said of the demagogues of his age applies to Michael Gove, Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage.

      I could not dig; I dared not rob:
      Therefore I lied to please the mob.
      Now all my lies are proved untrue
      And I must face the men I slew.
      What tale shall serve me here among
      Mine angry and defrauded young?

      Sign up to our EU referendum morning briefing
      Read more
      The real division in Britain is not between London and the north, Scotland and Wales or the old and young, but between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded. What tale will serve them now? On Thursday, they won by promising cuts in immigration. On Friday, Johnson and the Eurosceptic ideologue Dan Hannan said that in all probability the number of foreigners coming here won’t fall. On Thursday, they promised the economy would boom. By Friday, the pound was at a 30-year low and Daily Mail readers holidaying abroad were learning not to believe what they read in the papers. On Thursday, they promised £350m extra a week for the NHS. On Friday, it turns out there are “no guarantees”.

      If we could only find a halfway competent opposition, the very populist forces they have exploited and misled so grievously would turn on them. The fear in their eyes shows that they know it.”

      Poor England. So scared of the rest of the world, and still not being able to escape it.

      • Richardrawshark 11.1.1
        26 June 2016 at 10:26 am

        I am assuming, your assuming the people actually heard these broadcasts, promises, and that the people who did, believed every word of it.

        People are way past the point we trust a word spoken from Media and Politicians, the planet is full of sceptics right now. IMHO

        Truth being people voted more on the right to self direction and control, and immigration. These two issues were totally a failure of Brussels and that’s where any blame lies.

        Let’s not forget the body that controlled the EU. They don’t get to sit there holier than thou.

        • Sabine 11.1.1.1
          26 June 2016 at 10:39 am

          actually yes, i would assume that many did listen to Farrage and the likes. Just like in NZ they listen to Hoskins, the other jerk and Key and his mates.

          and yes, fear is the biggest killer of them all.

          lower, middle class England saw their benefits eroded, bedroom tax installed, draconic sanctions handed out to everyone who ever dared to be unemployed, being declared fit for work while dying of cancer two weeks later, schools being turned into academies, NHS being prepped to be offered for a coin to the next crony or bestie of Cameron, Ian Duncan Smith – aint he a lovely fellow, and so on and so on and so on.

          So yes, i would assume that the English would have listend to the ones that offered easy ways out, Namely Make Britain Great Again….tell me when was it ever great? Under Queen Elisabeth 1? Under Queen Victoria? Under Thatcher?
          Blame the Polish builder? The Hungarian fruit pickers? Or rather blame their own elected officials, which btw. like in NZ the wast majority of people elected several times in a row? No, that would not happen, that would mean the voters actually have to take responsibility for their votes and the consequences. A bit like the tory voter who realised that after the unemployed, the handicapped, the sick and unable to work, they are now coming for their tax credits and benefits….(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11935413/Ex-Tory-voter-breaks-down-on-Question-Time-over-tax-credit-cuts.html) . Pretty much what now is happening in NZ…..oh noes i did vote to have the benefits cut of the lazy bludger, of the slutty mother of many who is not married, of the pretend sick who should go work, and so on and so on, but i did not vote for my children to not find an affordable house or a decent paying job.

          You know what, they listended and they voted. And with it they removed a lot of options from their young one (just like they did in NZ), namely to work in 27 countries without needing a visa, being able to start a business anywhere within the EU, being able to access health care and the likes anywhere in the EU, and so on and so on.

          but yeah, lets be scared of Germany being made Great again. And worry about the Polish geezer coming to seek work in England, cause no English Fellow did the same.

          they fucked over their young ones. Just like they did in NZ…..and they voted for it. Several times in a row did they vote for the fine English Man and Women that fucked them over every day of the year, just like they did in NZ.

          • Richardrawshark 11.1.1.1.1
            26 June 2016 at 10:55 am

            Yeah it’s silly, but that’s how the grass roots talk.

            I think studies have been done on this particular social behaviour.

            • Sabine 11.1.1.1.1.1
              26 June 2016 at 11:11 am

              You are still ignoring the main point about all this raging against polititians and the likes, namely that people vote for them, and that voting has consequences.

              • Richardrawshark …
                26 June 2016 at 11:25 am

                I was very young when the EEC, EU started , I cannot comment on how it started, mums saying the Brits refused to join for ages, but the French kept pressuring and finally Tory Ted Heath signed up.

                What was said to promote it by Heath I have no idea, I certainly see the outcomes of the choices those voters made, and should it not now be the right for the generations who have lived this choice and seen it’s effects to now evaluate and have a choice in their future? Who says anything is binding on future generations?

                They made their choice it’s done now, we can sit back and criticize in the negative or we can positively support them, using positivity and look at the good not just the bad.

                • Peter Swift …
                  26 June 2016 at 11:32 am

                  You’ve been incorrectly informed.

                  1963 Britain’s first attempt to join the Common Market was vetoed by Charles de Gaulle, who was said to be worried about English taking over as Europe’s main language.

                  1967: A second UK attempt to join was blocked by President de Gaulle.

                  • Richardrawshark …
                    26 June 2016 at 11:39 am

                    So what was the real story about GB joining the EU Pete, I need a wider circles perspective then, obviously mums at that age then when she’s getting a tad mixed up… walks off to label the salt and sugar jars., and the one I keep the Ajax in.
                    .

                    • Peter Swift …
                      26 June 2016 at 11:42 am

                      You could start looking on google.
                      Here’s the first one that came up after searching for ‘britain’s attempts to join the eec’

                      http://www.politics.co.uk/reference/political-guides-eu-history-timeline-of-key-eu-events-politi

                    • Richardrawshark …
                      26 June 2016 at 12:04 pm

                      Thanks pete, bloody De Gaulle eh, wise man or fool?

                      then Heath became Prime Minister after winning the 1970 election. In 1971 he oversaw the decimalisation of British coinage and in 1972, he reformed Britain’s system of local government, reducing the number of local authorities and creating a number of new metropolitan counties. Possibly most significantly, he took Britain into the European Economic Community in 1973. Heath’s Premiership also oversaw the height of the Troubles in Northern Ireland, with the suspension of the Stormont Parliament and the imposition of direct British rule. Unofficial talks with Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) delegates were unsuccessful, as was the Sunningdale Agreement of 1973, which caused the Ulster Unionist Party to withdraw from the Conservative whip.

                      Heath also tried to curb the trade unions with the Industrial Relations Act 1971, and had hoped to deregulate the economy and make a transfer from direct to indirect taxation. However, rising unemployment in 1972 caused Heath to reflate the economy, attempting to control the resulting high inflation by a prices and incomes policy. Two miners’ strikes, in 1972 and at the start of 1974, damaged the government, the latter causing the implementation of the Three-Day Week to conserve energy. Heath eventually called an election for February 1974 to obtain a mandate to face down the miners’ wage demands, but this instead resulted in a hung parliament in which Labour, despite winning fewer votes, had four more seats than the Tories. Heath resigned as Prime Minister after trying in vain to form a coalition with the Liberal Party.

          • Greg 11.1.1.1.2
            26 June 2016 at 3:10 pm

            immigrants work cheaper and harder because the locals cant live on the wages.

            Bill English admitted this when he said we are lazy or unable to work because of a certain lifestyle, how many unemployed have they tested and kicked of the benefit, they cant call the policy a success because the numbers are so low,

            And then Max Key does a music video, saying how wonderful it is in Paradise,
            only for the rich, or subliminally, i have another girlfriend,

      • miravox 11.1.2
        26 June 2016 at 10:56 am

        +1 Sabine.
        and all this because a few old public school boys had a bit of a power play.

  12. Robertina 12
    26 June 2016 at 10:27 am

    I am just about Brexited out having read just about every tortured piece of analysis on the Guardian . . . but Nick Cohen’s j’accuse to Gove and Johnson is a must:

    ”The media do not damn themselves, so I am speaking out of turn when I say that if you think rule by professional politicians is bad wait until journalist politicians take over. Johnson and Gove are the worst journalist politicians you can imagine: pundits who have prospered by treating public life as a game. Here is how they play it. They grab media attention by blaring out a big, dramatic thought. An institution is failing? Close it. A public figure blunders? Sack him. They move from journalism to politics, but carry on as before. When presented with a bureaucratic EU that sends us too many immigrants, they say the answer is simple, as media answers must be. Leave. Now. Then all will be well.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/25/boris-johnson-michael-gove-eu-liars?CMP=share_btn_fb

  13. ianmac 13
    26 June 2016 at 10:30 am

    There is a petition being mounted in Britain to limit the final result of Brexit. And call for another Referendum whereby the winning numbers would have to be 60%+
    2 million have signed the petition already!
    (Some voted for Brexit not expecting it the exit to happen???)
    PS “We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the Remain or Leave vote is less than 60 per cent based a turnout less than 75 per cent there should be another referendum.”
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-petition-latest-eu-referendum-rules-change-force-second-vote-poll-government-a7102486.html

    • Richardrawshark 13.1
      26 June 2016 at 10:49 am

      I think you should read the individual results, In Brittain apart from London the leave poll was so much higher the two people who wasted there vote won’t matter, nor do I think the poll will.

      The percentage of Britons is far higher to leave than the overall voting including scotland.

      Got a feeling Scotland will soon be independent Nation under the Eu, the split has been now forced upon them. Good luck Scotland I mean that Sincerely.

      As the Chinese say, “it is fortunate to live in interesting times”

    • Greg 13.2
      26 June 2016 at 3:12 pm

      changing the goal posts, that sound familiar,

  14. The Chairman 14
    26 June 2016 at 11:49 am

    Little said he would have preferred Britain to stay in the EU.

    Surely Little is aware how anti-democratic the EU is, thus does his position imply he is anti-democratic at heart?

    Thoughts?

    • te reo putake 14.1
      26 June 2016 at 11:56 am

      Thoughts? You should try having one that wasn’t stoopid.

      • The Chairman 14.1.1
        26 June 2016 at 11:59 am

        It was a question, not a thought. Don’t attack the player.

        • Te Reo Putake 14.1.1.1
          26 June 2016 at 2:16 pm

          So it was a thoughtless question? That changes everything …

          • The Chairman 14.1.1.1.1
            26 June 2016 at 10:47 pm

            Far from it.

            Ponder this. Some say voters are still getting to know Little. What kind of impression do you think they’ll get from a comment such as that?

            One would expect a Labour Party leader to be supportive of such a move.

    • Richardrawshark 14.2
      26 June 2016 at 11:58 am

      More likely this is a deeply thought out response more about stability and not about personal preference, as PM in waiting his answer would be of a governmental position. No Government I think would want an unstable Europe where we have had the conflicts of the past IE 2 world wars.

      • The Chairman 14.2.1
        26 June 2016 at 12:05 pm

        More about stability opposed to sovereignty?

        Surely a nation is more stable when making it’s own decisions?

        Leaving the EU doesn’t impact the NATO agreement.

    • The Chairman 14.3
      26 June 2016 at 1:15 pm

      Winston Peters has long spoke up in favour of a Brexit, putting him at odds with Little.

      Shaw, on the other hand, said he was quite sad about the decision to leave. Therefore, can we take it he’s another that is anti-democratic at heart?

      Thoughts?

      • Colonial Viper 14.3.1
        26 June 2016 at 2:05 pm

        Shaw’s CV and professional skills fit right in with the City of London corporate scene so no surprise there.

      • Stuart Munro 14.3.2
        27 June 2016 at 4:21 am

        Perhaps Little wishes the EU were worth staying with.

    • b waghorn 14.4
      26 June 2016 at 3:36 pm

      Globalization is the only way, that doesn’t mean that people should quietly accept unelected rulers like the eu and or being run by corperates and their rent boys like key , but once you sulk off the field your out of the game.

    • miravox 14.5
      26 June 2016 at 11:25 pm

      Is the EU more anti-democratic than a Tory FPP government in the UK?

      Thoughts?

      • Colonial Viper 14.5.1
        26 June 2016 at 11:41 pm

        Look at the austerity and poverty that has been forced on to the people of Ireland, Greece, Spain, Portugal from Brussels right over the tops of their sovereign parliaments. So the answer is yes, definitely.

        • miravox 14.5.1.1
          26 June 2016 at 11:50 pm

          Fair call. But that’s not more anti-democratic. That’s undeniably vicious decision-making from a democratic institution.

          The UK Tory government has done exactly the same to its people (as has the NZ government) without the EU.

          • Colonial Viper 14.5.1.1.1
            26 June 2016 at 11:56 pm

            Yes I agree that the final effect in terms of austerity and human suffering may be the same, but the democratic aspect of it, i.e. whether the harmful decisions come from fellow citizen politicians you elected or from foreign bureaucrats whose names you don’t even know, who have never even been to your home town, its quite different.

            • miravox 14.5.1.1.1.1
              27 June 2016 at 12:57 am

              But communities/nations did elect their representatives in the EU. That’s the democratic bit. Nor are the bureaucrats citizens of some foreign place called EU, they’re from the nations that make up the EU.

              Your point that people may prefer elected neo-lib representatives and anonymous bureaucrats closer to home to destroy their lives is valid. But if they were these closer to home representatives that’s not more democratic. If the point is about geography, local issues and visibility the argue that point. I guess I just get tired of seeing framing through shorthand phrases that sound like they mean something, but don’t and are often fudging the truth. The EU is democratically elected and executive has no more power, some times less, than the national governments of the EU countries.

              The left and other supporters of the people who are suffering under austerity should be up in arms about what is being done to the less well-off people and their communities. I wish they would think about what’s behind these right wing phrases instead of parroting them.

              Question – what if Yanis Varoufakis put himself up for election to the EU parliament and won, and then got his parliamentary group to reject the executive who are the purveyors of austerity measures. Meanwhile George Osborne became PM in the UK and continued with his destruction of social support and the NHS. Would you still be complaining about the anti-democratic, unelected and faceless bureaucrats in the EU, or start talking about the validity of policies and which should be implemented?

              • Colonial Viper …
                27 June 2016 at 1:11 am

                You do understand that elected MEPs have zero power over the ECB, IMF and Euro Group don’t you?

                That’s why it is utterly undemocratic. Schaubles attitude has always been: Greek voters and the Greek Parliament have zero say over what economic and monetary policies are to be implemented in Greece. The rights of the creditors is ultimate.

                • miravox …
                  27 June 2016 at 1:21 am

                  That’s about as much power as the House of Commons has over the Bank of England, IMF and Euro Group… and cabinet.

                  Once again, is it more undemocratic than the Tory government, or as you suggested earlier, more culturally and geographically distant?

                  • Colonial Viper …
                    27 June 2016 at 4:27 pm

                    I’d pick rule by the NZ National Government any day of the week ahead of rule by the EU, ECB and German finance heads like Schauble.

                    At least David Cameron, a Tory, acknowledges the validity of the BREXIT poll result, unlike all the tap dancing lefties on this site.

                    • miravox …
                      27 June 2016 at 6:01 pm

                      “I’d pick rule by the NZ National Government any day of the week ahead of rule by the EU, ECB and German finance heads like Schauble.”

                      Obviously that’s your prerogative.

                      And I have not argued the validity of the result. Save that criticism for when you find someone who did thanks.

      • The Chairman 14.5.2
        27 June 2016 at 8:16 am

        “Is the EU more anti-democratic than a Tory FPP government in the UK?”

        It sure is. And one would assume Little is aware of this.

        • miravox 14.5.2.1
          27 June 2016 at 4:17 pm

          another link

          and just in case it’s too long…

          The verdict

          Clearly the EU structure has defects when assessed by the normal standards of Western democracy – but I would argue that the British parliament, with its unelected House of Lords and an unrepresentative House of Commons (in terms of the balance of political parties to votes cast), is even less democratic.

          Eurosceptics have for a long time questioned the legitimacy of the EU – but that charge is difficult to sustain. Of course national parliaments have all agreed to pool sovereignty in the EU institutions, but they are entitled to do that and have done so with their eyes wide open. Many even asked their citizens to vote on the decision in a referendum.

          What’s more, national governments, through the Council of Ministers, are still the most powerful collective influence in shaping EU decisions – not the European Parliament. They have the right to raise a yellow card about EU legislation, which can cause the Commission to change it.

          And the EU is in the process of strengthening the ability of national parliaments to call a halt to EU legislation if they object to it.

          So all in all, the EU is, or is at least working to be, a democratic organisation. It has its failings but national governments have just as many – if not more.

          • Colonial Viper 14.5.2.1.1
            27 June 2016 at 4:24 pm

            Given this, I wonder if the EU is about to increase the say of the Greek people in their own economy and their own country. No? OK.

            • miravox 14.5.2.1.1.1
              27 June 2016 at 5:55 pm

              EU and Eurozone (and IMF) are exactly the same thing. No? OK.

              • Colonial Viper …
                27 June 2016 at 6:04 pm

                I understand the point you are making but do not believe that that is the end of it.

                Tell me, did the EU intercede on behalf of one of its member states, Greece, to protect it from the undemocratic actions taken by the ECB, IMF and Euro Group against the people of Greece which included interfering in elections, undermining the elected government, overruling decisions made by the elected government, etc.?

                You do know that the Euro Group of finance ministers are all finance ministers of EU nations right? They were also pivotal to fucking over fellow EU member Greece.

                As you know, even working class British yobs have visited the Greece and the Greek Islands. I bet you they noticed how the poor of Greece was being treated by these EU Finance Ministers and the ECB.

                • miravox …
                  27 June 2016 at 6:28 pm

                  In terms of Greece making its own financial decisions it would have to leave the Eurozone. This discussion has been had before and I think we pretty much agreed that it was disappointing the Greece didn’t do that.

                  Did the MEPs intercede? They certainly discussed the situation with Tsipras at least once and seemed to get Junker to concede to mistakes… as always, with a democratic institution there was a wide range of opinions
                  http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/news-room/20150706STO74708/Greece-MEPs-debate-the-country%E2%80%99s-situation-with-Prime-Minister-Tsipras

                  I also know, from listening in at a meeting in Brussels, that the Social Democratic group was extremely sympathetic to the Greek position and made that clear. However, in parliament there are several other blocks and they too had their own view, as obviously happens in most democratic parliamentary organisations most of the time.

                  I’m not arguing with the points you’re making about Greece – this situation is an on-going neo-lib nightmare (and yes, I have seen the evidence of that first-hand) – It doesn’t relate to the question of whether the EU is a less democratic organisation than the UK Tory government that has devastated its own communities though.

                  The evidence is that the EU is least as democratic.

                  Whether that is democratic enough is a whole other issue and stands for national as well as supranational governance.

                  • Colonial Viper …
                    27 June 2016 at 6:42 pm

                    Yes, a number of MEPs (including Farage…) expressed sympathy and solidarity with the Greeks.

                    In general terms the global elite seem keen to weaken the effectiveness of individual sovereign governments, and hand power to supranational/transnational arrangements and institutions.

                    In specific terms, it appears now that a majority in both Italy and France now want EU membership referendums to be held.

                    If the EU want to impress ordinary citizens of Europe with positive and democratic changes, now would be a good time.

                    • miravox …
                      27 June 2016 at 6:52 pm

                      “If the EU want to impress ordinary citizens of Europe with positive and democratic changes, now would be a good time.”

                      Absolutely.

                      And if media organisations decided to take the EU parliament seriously and give it a bit more scrutiny that would be right too.

  15. adam 15
    26 June 2016 at 12:34 pm

    You should read this from Frank Macskasy, apart from being very depressing the easy which this national government and it’s ministers can lie.

    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2016/06/26/tdb-exclusive-investigation-cyf-the-hollowing-out-of-a-state-agency/

    The mad drive to ideological purity has kicked up a notch.

    And no one is safe.

  16. Muttonbird 16
    26 June 2016 at 12:40 pm

    Lots of action in the British Labour cabinet over the weekend.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36632539

    Who will be left standing?

  18. Paul 18
    26 June 2016 at 2:20 pm

    The media is a major part of the problem.

    The Herald reports ‘Balmy June heading for a record’ and manages to avoid mentioning climate change. Rather than discussing this topic at a serious level, it turns a climate change issue into a ski report.

    ‘The unseasonably mild winter has been good news for some – but not if you are a skier.
    Nearly all the snow that fell on the Coronet Peak ski field, near Queenstown, earlier in the month has melted, and the “Big Defreeze” has impacted on the the town’s annual 10-day Winter Festival, which began on Friday.
    The lack of snow meant some events had to relocate.’

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11663518

    • save nz 18.1
      26 June 2016 at 2:57 pm

      @Paul – Maybe the business roundtable gives Granny an extra bonus if they avoid the word ‘climate change’.

    • Graeme 18.2
      26 June 2016 at 4:57 pm

      There were a couple of winters in late 80’s early 90’s that were as dire, one had a huge fall in May and then almost nothing, then another a couple of years alter when Coronet was only open for about a week all season, and keeping Remarkables open took a heroic effort, we were trucking snow down the mountain. It was pretty tough for the staff that year. There were other dry or warm years before that too. When they got into snow making in a big way it gave more reliability in dry years, but can’t do much in warm years. I was involved with snow making in the early years and remember weather figures that showed about 1 in 20 or 30 year return for a winter too warm for reliable snow making on Coronet. It was like 8 in 10 where it was too cold and dry for natural snow to maintain the snowpack.

      The traditional start of season was early July pre snow making. The changes to school holidays from late August to early July created an imperative to try and bring things forward, with a corresponding redefinition of normal by the media.

      The sign of a warming climate here will be snow making at Coronet becoming redundant or ineffective. (as the atmosphere warms it can carry more moisture, so more snow, to a point) I’ll reserve my judgement on that as it’s going to take 10 or so years to show a statistical variation, but the last couple of years have got my attention.

  20. Ad 20
    26 June 2016 at 7:27 pm

    Will it be too much to ask for Unidos Podemos and the Socialists to get their shit together and take Spain together, this time around?

  21. mauī 21
    26 June 2016 at 8:43 pm

    Hmm, another one. Have to say I’m disappointed, I had an idea that Foster-Bell is/was a religious man at least back in University days when he was my residential assistant and seemed like a nice enough guy then.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/81474280/high-turnover-of-staff-in-national-mps-office-and-claims-of-bullying

    • Rodel 21.1
      26 June 2016 at 9:43 pm

      Don’t think religiosity is correlated with non bullying. Quite the contrary.

  22. joe90 22
    26 June 2016 at 10:40 pm

    Delightful antidote to some of the shit going on right now.

    https://twitter.com/i/moments/746845931434287104