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Open mike 27/06/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 27th, 2022 - 233 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

233 comments on “Open mike 27/06/2022 ”

  1. pat 1

    “What are you asking me to change to?” he says. “What will you give up? Will you give up your house, your car, your retirement fund, your super fund, everything that you own and have strived for, your retirement and walk away from that?”

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/dairy-on-the-canterbury-plains-was-it-a-big-mistake

    “If the government or the people of New Zealand believe that is what they want, then pay me out, and I’ll walk away. But in the interim, don’t just tell me I need to cut cows or do something different, when I have no pathway,” he says.

    • DB Brown 1.1

      An ECAN councillor, has no way forward. Seems like another lying manipulative victim of his own inaction and hubris, now attention seeking [deleted].

      He would know exactly what others are doing to create change, and clearly he's not prepared to do any of it. "Buy me out" – much preferable to hearing him out, what a tosser.

      • DB Brown 1.1.1

        You know that child you keep yelling at to get ready for school, and when it's time to go they clearly haven't lifted a finger, so you say buddy you got to move, NOW. So they go outside and yell to any and all who care to listen that they're being abused…

        That's this guy.

        • Ad 1.1.1.1

          You know that patrician scolding left that juts fucks everyone off?

          That's you.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 1.1.1.1.1

            …that juts fucks everyone off?

            Not everyone Ad – there's plenty of room for GROWTH. Juts imagine 2030!

            Bringing this all together, achieving 10% reduction in methane emissions by 2030 looks feasible but challenging. It can only happen if some of the marginal sheep and beef country is converted to forestry – something in excess of 500,000 hectares. My key concern is that this occurs on the genuinely steep marginal country, and with a focus on non-harvested forests, rather than short-cycle production forests of which we already have close to two million hectares. [+ 102 comments]
            https://www.interest.co.nz/rural-news/116182/big-challenges-and-change-lie-ahead-if-methane-emissions-are-be-reduced-10-2030

    • Ad 1.2

      That farmer is not wrong. Uncomfortable though it is, the dairy industry is the single largest exporting business we have, and it pays for a whole bunch of the taxes that in turn pay for our hospitals, police, and teachers.

      That farmer responded to powerful market signals from central government including major direct public investment in South Island and particularly Canterbury irrigation machinery and systems during the Key administration.

      Can the combination of the new water quality regulator, water pricing regulator, and new water management entity reverse all of that in Canterbury? Probably not – until there is an agricultural industry that is even more profitable than dairy.

      • Descendant Of Smith 1.2.1

        That farmer is wrong. Us the workers pay most of the tax in this country. Dairy farmers pay not a great deal in comparison. Turnover and taxation are not the same thing as that famer lobbyist Bill English explains here.

        I’ve long advocated for a turnover tax however which if put in place at 3% would mean they make a meaningful tax contribution in line with their GDP contribution that they love to spout on about so much.

        There is also good GDP and bad GDP e.g. some places in the US rely on prisons in their towns to increase GDP. Chopping a forest down will increase GDP e.g. Amazon forest. That is bad GDP. GDP isn’t necessarily a good measure.

        IRD figures showed the 17,244 entities registered as being in the dairy sector, including companies, trusts and individuals, paid only NZ$26 million in tax.

        The data showed that 9,014 or more than half reported a loss for the 2008/09 year and 2,635 reported trading income of between NZ$1 and NZ$20,000. Nearly 40,000 of the 72,000 companies in the primary sector were unprofitable.

        https://www.interest.co.nz/rural-news/53495/dairy-farmers-pay-lower-tax-couple-pension-ird-says-fonterra-gets-tax-credits-fair#:~:text=Meanwhile%20DairyNZ%20put%20out%20a,not%20%2426%20million%20as%20claimed.

        • Poission 1.2.1.1

          Thats 2011 during the gfc,since high prices for dairy and other agriculture due to the global food shortage,dairy and pastoral farming have decreased both borrowing and repaid substantive capital.The substantive capital appreciation both decreased our overseas borrowings,paid interest on overseas debt,and allowed the banks to lend to the village idiots to buy a fully overpriced house.

          Dairy and agriculture exports will sustain mortgages to 10% in this mortgage cycle,without dairy and beef and lamb,mortgage interest rates will double to 20% with a substantive housing crash ie we will have the same economic conditions of the first oil shock and agriculture price ( due to EU quota) crash of the late 70's .

          At present we have sufficient Forex reserves to last 2 quarters (13B) which only pays our current account trading deficit.

          The austerity measures that would be needed would be similar to Sri lanka

          • Descendant Of Smith 1.2.1.1.1

            Show me the actual tax paid data. I looked for more recent as a comparison but couldn't find any. The oft reiterated we pay large amount of tax always seems in contradiction to the continual moaning about how hard it is and how inputs are increasing and costs going up.

            It can't be both – either these farmers are making large profits and paying large amounts of tax on those profits or they are not.

            High amounts of tax but low profits simply cannot co-exist.

            “As shoppers recoil at the rising cost of staples like milk, cheese and butter, Aotearoa’s largest dairy company, Fonterra, says it’s not reaping bumper profits. In fact, its consumer business in New Zealand is “struggling,” with low margins and profit down more than 80%.”

            https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/128805146/fonterras-nz-consumer-business-doing-it-very-tough-profit-down-80

            • Poission 1.2.1.1.1.1

              Dairy farming loans april 2020/2022 decreased by 10% ie capital repayment.If they are not paying tax on profits and can repay capital debt,then there is a problem with the tax system,and not with the farmers who milk cows for a living.

              now how much untaxed capital gain is going unpaid with every house sale? Over the same period of time 60 billion went into the housing market to fund capital gains.

              • KJT

                How much of that decrease, was sales to overseas interests?

                • Poission

                  Loan repayments,not capital sales.

                  • KJT

                    Loans do tend to get repaid, when you sell.

                    • Poission

                      So would be the same in the housing market.The dairy farms do however (as all farms do) pay tax on the sale of the land and assets,(both gst and capital gain ) which the untaxed capital gains on residential housing do not.

                  • KJT

                    Farms are not subject to Capital gains tax on sale

                    Hence the transfer of income, which would be taxed, to increase untaxed capital gains on sale.

                    Capital gains farming.

                    Which is why we have all the screams from farmers when CGT is mentioned. Currently farmers pay little tax.

              • Descendant Of Smith

                So you are agreeing that dairy farmers don't pay much tax on actual farming but are proposing that they pay copious amounts of GST when they sell their farms and that is their contribution to the tax system – ignoring the fact that GST is netted off as it becomes an expense against other GST paid for the new owner. Unlike working people who pay the full cost of GST on purchases to the tax system business people only pay the difference between the GST on purchases and sales.

                You keep making excuses and provide little evidence to support your original proposition:

                "and it pays for a whole bunch of the taxes that in turn pay for our hospitals, police, and teachers."

                I know farmers who have several farms who have community service cards. Community Service cards are based on taxable income. That is a dead giveaway they are not paying much tax. They do go overseas regularly though on farming trips.

                • Poission

                  The produce that is sold overseas pays for our imports including debt.You need overseas funds to pay for the imported goods such as vaccines,computers, wind turbines.

                  They exported goods also pay the interest on our debt.As we have high inflation we also need to find increased funds to pay the interest on our sovereign debt such as inflation bonds of which the government has 19.5B$ of,and a doubling of interest debt as bonds roll over.

                  How do you propose we pay for that debt? all overseas derived.As the government has a budget deficit,the deficit is funded by debt.

                  Markets are pricing in this year another 1.75% increase in rates at the sovereign level where is the money to come from?

                  • Descendant Of Smith

                    You're still not talking about the amount of tax the industry pays to pay for the cost of hospitals, roads etc.

                    We get GDP and the balance of trade and surpluses versus deficits and the impact that has on interest rates and but your claim, and farmers like to proclaim this quite loudly, that they pay lots of tax.

                    Bear in mind all company tax in NZ only makes up 14% of the tax take. Individual people like myselves paying tax make up 40% of the tax take – without being able to claim expenses back and GST including customs GST makes up 32% of tax take again with individuals like myself paying full GST as we cannot net off our GST like businesses can.

                    So how much of the 14.8% of company tax is from dairy farmers – sweet FA.

                    • pat

                      Tax is NZD…exports offset our USD requirements…they are two seperate issues

                    • Poission

                      How much tax does the building industry pay,being a larger part of the domestic economy and net importer.the builder, or plumber, plasterer? or electrician using just about all imported parts.

                      They are all small to large businesses,all paying wages,gst,corporate tax and all part of the 17250b forcast corporate tax this year.

                      How about the banks,their total tax bills on record profits what are those?

                      You are struggling to make a formative point.

                    • Descendant Of Smith

                      Nah you just keep deflecting.

                      My original post was responding to this comment:

                      "and it pays for a whole bunch of the taxes that in turn pay for our hospitals, police, and teachers."

                      It is oft said but patently false.

                      The other industries aren't the ones claiming that without them we wouldn't have hospitals or roads etc. The proportion of company tax as part of the tax take peaked in the 60's.

                      I don't think a banker has ever suggested that without the tax they pay we would have no hospitals.

                      https://www.treasury.govt.nz/publications/wp/average-marginal-income-tax-rates-new-zealand-1907-2009-html#section-6

                    • Poission

                      Have you thought of getting some recent data (not data that includes the gfc etc) or data distorted from anomalous capital injections such as the CHCH eq.

                      You first used an item from 2011,now 2012.Try forging some stronger arguments Smith.

        • mikesh 1.2.1.2

          If the farmer's profit is 3% of turnover a 3% turnover tax would wipe out his income. The poor bugger would starve!

          • Descendant Of Smith 1.2.1.2.1

            South Africa use a sliding scale of 1%, 2% and 3%. Particularly if you replaced other taxation with e.g. personal taxation and GST.

            Net off wages at its introduction so a worker gets to keep all their income. The idea isn't to collect more tax – the idea is to spread it more evenly so all businesses pay tax and it is simple. Wage costs would be reduced for companies that have workers and as they transition to robotics for instance to improve productivity the tax revenue would not be affected. They would need to make more sales to pay more tax.

            It would enable all tax to be collected at point of sale as well as well. This would help prevent businesses going bust owing IRD millions / hundreds of thousands. That in itself would be of great benefit to pay for hospitals.

            Expenses should be between the shareholders and the people running the company.

            I would also suggest when a surplus occurs in a good year all governments should have a commitment to determine how much of that should be returned to businesses.

          • Descendant Of Smith 1.2.1.2.2

            The poor bugger would starve!

            Nah he has cows to eat and can put in a vege garden.

            • joe90 1.2.1.2.2.1

              Will no one think of the farmers.

              But it is also important to remember that while farmers were severely hit
              by depression, rather less than a quarter of all farmers actually sought formal mortgage relief under the 1936 Act; moreover, farming always provided at least subsistence, whereas urban dwelling did not. And within the rural sector, farmers were not always the worst off. As Alfred Coleman, Chairman of the Taranaki Commission, observed early in 1935:

              It is the prerogative of the farmer . . . to grumble, but he has by no means lost heart.
              He appears to motor into town, attend race-meetings, picture shows, etc., as freely as ever. No doubt he economises by patronising cheaper seats etc., but he nevertheless still avails himself of all social amenities. The people who appear to be losing heart and drifting into a state of despair are those in the towns throughout the Province who are either out of work or whose avocations barely afford the necessities of life. Their condition is pitiable.”

              http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:-5daeurrD7MJ:www.nzjh.auckland.ac.nz/docs/1987/NZJH_21_2_03.pdf+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nz

      • Muttonbird 1.2.2

        The occupation of Canterbury by the dairy industry at the invitation of the Key government is equivalent to the occupation of Palestine by Israeli settlers at the invitation of conservative Israel.

        Get in there by any means necessary, encourage it, fund it, and it's a whole lot more difficult to wind back later. This is the narrative now, that you can get rid of cows families now they are settled in…

        • Muttonbird 1.2.2.1

          *can't get rid of cows and families.

        • KJT 1.2.2.2

          Actual farmers know, that intensive dairying in Canterbury was not a long term business proposition. You know, the ones that have actually studied things such as soil depletion and nutrient balances. Several told me, just that.

          Not those who are farming capital gains, expecting to sell to a "greater fool" before realisation hit.

          "Farming families" is a good propaganda meme, but it appears that land speculators, or even "Queen Street farmers" is more accurate.

      • Stuart Munro 1.2.3

        responded to powerful market signals

        And he did so in pursuit of personal profit. Now all he needs is more powerful societal signals, since he has chosen to operate in a fashion that causes damage beyond the narrow confines of his property.

      • Grumpy 1.2.4

        Can the combination of the new water quality regulator, water pricing regulator, and new water management entity reverse all of that in Canterbury? Probably not – until there is an agricultural industry that is even more profitable than dairy.

        Probably, seeing as one of (if not the) biggest diary farm operators in Canterbury is Ngai Tahu…………

        • arkie 1.2.4.1

          Can you cite any evidence for this claim?

          • Belladonna 1.2.4.1.1

            No idea about farm ownership across Canterbury as a whole, but this from Ngai Tahu about their dairy holdings

            Eyrewell is a region 40km north west of Christchurch which sits within the tribal area of Ngāi Tūāhuriri, a Ngāi Tahu sub tribe. At Eyrewell, there are six operational dairy farms that cover 2,000 hectares in total with each farm having a 64-bail rotary dairy shed and a herd of 1,400 cows.

            https://ngaitahu.iwi.nz/investment/ngai-tahu-farming-2/

            • arkie 1.2.4.1.1.1

              Yes, then there's Dairy Holdings Ltd

              Dairy Holdings' 75 farms – 59 dairy and 16 grazing – are all in the South Island and predominantly in Canterbury. It is Fonterra's largest supplier with 54 farms, with the remaining five supplying Westland Milk Products.

              The figures are impressive: in the 2017-18 season its 59 dairy farms milked almost 50,000 cows on 14,300 hectares, producing an estimated 17.26 million kilograms of milksolids.

              https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/104314481/biggest-corporate-dairy-farmer-lowcost-and-lowprofile

              So Grumpy here is spreading effluent, to continue with the dairy theme.

            • arkie 1.2.4.1.1.2

              As well as Purata Farming formerly Synlait Farms, larger than the Ngāi Tahu holdings:

              In February 2016, Standard Farm New Zealand Ltd of Shanghai Pengxin Group becomes the sole owner of SFL Holdings Ltd.

              Commencing 31st of August 2016 Hunan Dakang to acquire fiduciary management rights in respect of 100% of New Zealand Standard Farm Limited’s shareholder rights in SFL Holdings Limited, including Purata Farming Ltd which owns 13 farms in Canterbury.

              Our 13 irrigated South Island dairy farms as of August 2016 three are certified with Gold Plus supplier for Synlait Milk. The total effective area of the farms is around 3,942 ha with annual production of 5.4 million kgMS.

              https://milknewzealand.com/our-business/theland-farm-group/purata-farming/

              And yet Grumpy feels fine to just spray and walk away. This is how the pollution spreads.

    • KJT 1.3

      If farming wasn't such a "sacred cow" we would be telling that guy the same as we would tell anyone else who over invested in a business with an obviously unsustainable future, expecting to sell to a "greater mug" for an untaxed capital gain before reality hits.

      Tough biccies!

    • pat 1.5

      Mike Joy is quite correct…the growth of dairy in Canterbury was a mistake (as was the RBNZ promotion of the 'wealth effect')…the question remains how do we readdress that mistake?…Canterbury dairy is around 20% of output and dairy is our largest export…if we are to reduce our exports, we must be willing to reduce our imports…what are we willing to forego?

      Unless someone has a solution that has evaded our best minds for the best part of 5 decades.

      • In Vino 1.5.1

        I would say cut off the importing of cheap cars. We are stupidly flooding our roads with them faster than even National could build new roads.

        But that is yet another holy cow: "Oh, You must not interfere with the market of a healthy, thriving economic industry!"

        Yeah, Right. Lots of bleeding hearts, please…

        • pat 1.5.1.1

          K..at least you are willing to nominate something…do we only then import expensive new cars?…and if so do we limit the number?

          • In Vino 1.5.1.1.1

            If we have any brains at all, we have to stop what we are doing. Fat chance.

            • pat 1.5.1.1.1.1

              Am inclined to agree we lack grey matter, however i ask would you support a political party that advocated some form of import licensing, knowing that you may not be able to access some goods you desire?

              • Descendant Of Smith

                I've never been convinced that having a choice of 38 brands of baked beans instead of 10 is beneficial to me in any way.

                • pat

                  Have you been to supermarket lately?….you may be lucky to find 2 varieties of baked beans..and a lot of gaps on the shelves.

                  And a distinct lack of acknowledgement of the issue.

        • Poission 1.5.1.2

          We have under 6 months of foreign reserves now,It would require a substantive correction of the economy (as the dollar went through the floor and investment grade bonds went to junk)

          We would need to remove around 200k jobs at least across the economy.

          • pat 1.5.1.2.1

            so what is the solution?…we cant do without our dairy exports (at current or near to volume) and we cannot continue at current volume?

            • Descendant Of Smith 1.5.1.2.1.1

              We should encourage more investment in areas that involve intellectual capacity – gaming is one that springs to mind. Strengthen our university science research capabilities, invest in areas like trades, etc as we know we will be losing many of our tradies to age and Australia. I pointed out twenty years ago to one ITO that Australia had identified their aging trade workforce and planned to get 20% of their future tradies from NZ.

              National sadly missed a great opportunity with the Christchurch earthquake to beef up the NZ skillset in this area.

              Personally I would reduce the amount of crap imported into the country as well. The used car comment being but one example. Improving public transport and making it free would be one way of doing this.

              If we continue to reply on physical production of things and not expand to other opportunities we will run out of workforce with an aging population.

              I despair at the lack of planning and discussion around this very important aspect of our population. We are going to be whacked by it and GDP will be going down as a result. I'm also unsure why famers get a special thought this time round – uneconomic farms fell by the wayside when subsidies were removed in the 80's, car manufacturing, clothing manufacturing, etc were all allowed to fall over with nary a thought, as beef and sheep farming reduced freezing works closed everywhere.

              • pat

                farming fell over at the same time…land values halved and a hell of a lot of farmers were sold up.

                Id suggest we dont have time to develop a range of new industries. (even if we could, which history suggests not)..as you note we have wasted decades already, so as far as I can see if we are to reduce our export capacity we must also reduce our import demand…the question then is how and what?

                • Descendant Of Smith

                  Some were really uneconomic though e.g. the farmer up the Whanganui River who could only get sheep to his farm a few at a time by jet boat. Was profitable with subsidies.

                  Business is in my view bad at forecasting the future even when warned and predictable – the Pandemic planning 10 years ago and the actual preparedness and response when COVID hit is one example. Preparation for an aging workforce is another.

                  Even now where is the business community discussing things like supply chain risk (needing ramped up production in NZ) or considering that normal has changed and we won't ever see the same volumes of workers centralised in a CBD or that substantially more people now would like to order meals delivered online and eat in comfort watching their movies on a large TV at home rather than go out on a cold and windy night and eat at a restaurant or even that young people drink less than the older generations.

                  Things like transitioning skills and knowledge from one (mainly white) generation to another with a much greater, proportion of Maori and Polynesian workers. How we utilise the potential of those with disabilities in a much more meaningful way – especially now as since COVID-19 there is much more acceptance of working from home.

                  Not everything needs a massive change to make a difference – lots of smaller things can start to accumulate quite big change.

                  We do need to think wider than roads and dairy and cutting down trees and low paid tourism. What I keep hearing from business is "when can we go back to normal". Normal has changed.

                  • pat

                    And does any of that provide export dollars?

                    • Descendant Of Smith

                      Depends on the business doesn't it? What a weird question.

                      Aging workforces go across export businesses as well or do you think they somehow magically have a special ability to attract young people.

                      Horticulture and forestry are prime examples where they have instead of developing the local Maori workforce they have treated them badly and those communities are now saying "fuck you". There are whole families who will no longer work in forestry as they have had too many family members die. The flooding slag issue in Ruatoria has pissed the whole community off – especially as many hapu were warning about the risk and raising concerns.

                      I know people now who as a result of working from home are now working for overseas companies here in little ole NZ – their income comes directly from overseas without having to pay shipping costs. One earns well over $100,00 a year with basically very few overheads.

                      We need to be smarter.

                    • pat

                      So one person working in IT making 100k plus is the sum of fx….

                      Your statement was…

                      "Even now where is the business community discussing things like supply chain risk (needing ramped up production in NZ) or considering that normal has changed and we won't ever see the same volumes of workers centralised in a CBD or that substantially more people now would like to order meals delivered online and eat in comfort watching their movies on a large TV at home rather than go out on a cold and windy night and eat at a restaurant or even that young people drink less than the older generations.

                      Things like transitioning skills and knowledge from one (mainly white) generation to another with a much greater, proportion of Maori and Polynesian workers. How we utilise the potential of those with disabilities in a much more meaningful way – especially now as since COVID-19 there is much more acceptance of working from home"

                      …all non tradable activities…and you may wish to consider the following

                      "The latest figures show that of New Zealand's asset classes, Māori own 50 per cent of the country's fishing quota, 40 per cent of forestry, 30 per cent of its sheep and beef production, 30 per cent of lamb production, 10 per cent of dairy production and 10 per cent of kiwifruit.

                      Collectively, Māori own $13 billion in primary sector assets, according to the Māori Investors Guide 2017."

                      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/agribusiness-report-three-concerns-underpinning-maori-agribusiness/N7BAMSISLFEBSEBLSL6MJYYC3U/

                    • lprent []

                      Yep, and the iwi corps are also heavily into urban property. And they appear to be starting to take positions in export IT startups.

                      that substantially more people now would like to order meals delivered online and eat in comfort watching their movies on a large TV at home rather than go out on a cold and windy night and eat at a restaurant or even that young people drink less than the older generations.

                      That made me laugh. This ancient programmer has stopped going to pickup food on Ponsonby Rd becauae of the frigging crowding. I miss the those brief periods at the end of lockdowns when it was posible to find a park outside of the Ponsonby fast food like Boy and Bird.

                      Ponsonby is pretty much back to normal. Jervois Rd as well. Not sure about K Rd – it is closer than Ponsonby Rd, but I seldom walk that way.

                    • Descendant Of Smith

                      I'm well aware of the growth in Maori business.

                      That needs to accelerate is the point and will offset some of the reduction that dairy may have to endure. The more we support Maori to do well the better off the country will be.

                      Now if we could only tap the potential of our disabled workforce.

                    • pat

                      "I'm well aware of the growth in Maori business."

                      Apparently not

                      "Things like transitioning skills and knowledge from one (mainly white) generation to another with a much greater, proportion of Maori and Polynesian workers."

                      "Horticulture and forestry are prime examples where they have instead of developing the local Maori workforce they have treated them badly and those communities are now saying "fuck you".

                    • Descendant Of Smith

                      Both those things exist simultaneously – it isn't one or the other.

                    • Descendant Of Smith

                      Well the industry disagrees with you. Three quarters of the use of online apps for food delivery comes from people who would normally eat at a restaurant.

                      And this doesn't include those that do their own on-line ordering and delivery.

                      The study estimated food apps added around $59,000 to the 2019 revenue of the restaurants using them – about $19.6m in total. It also found about 26 per cent of the orders came from people who would not have usually chosen a restaurant meal.

                      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/food-delivery-wars-doordash-uber-eats-menulog-delivereasy-and-yummi-compared/XS6DEEL2X6HPALTM4IQ6CH2VGQ/

            • Poission 1.5.1.2.1.2

              The Joy paper has a lot of problems,especially for the Christchurch city aquifers.The age of the water is around 300 years old in the west to 1400 years in the east.( south cant,and north has water 10k old)

              The hydrology into the aquifers is horizontal not vertical,as there are two clay layers above the deep aquifers.So horizontal transport from the waimak will be above the take zone.

              If we are to redesign the economy ( limits to growth are required under the IPCC SE scenarios) then we have to limit severely immigration,and expansion,and most probably tourism (which if the flights and full costs were accounted for would make steel smelting look green)

              The moving to 1990 levels,also require a population decrease as energy efficiency is limited to the cost of the respiration of a human.

              We would need to also still have to repay our debt obligations.

              • pat

                I dont know about the time lag for Christcjurch's aquifers but I do know that Selwyn is already experiencing problems with Rolleston (pop 25,000 and growing) and the wider plains have a huge problem (as Joy notes, the bulk of Canty water is artesian)…our own levels well exceed the current (high) limit…I would suggest that Christchurch will not be immune from the impact for long.

                As Joy notes the cow population has grown tenfold (in 20 years)…curiously so has land value…i doubt a rapid reduction to 1990 levels is viable but a reduction is definitely needed, probably in conjunction with other mitigations.

      • pat 1.5.2

        and late edit…"redress" not readdress.

      • KJT 1.5.3

        Cutting our imports of oil, and finance, would be a good start.

        • pat 1.5.3.1

          Agree…pre current inflation we were spending around 6 billion a year on oil.that would be a very good place to start…and the aussie banks took around another 4 billion,…but even without all that (some is unavoidable) we still need to export to maintain demand for the NZD and in reality that means ag/hort.

  2. Luxon and the Natz getting a lot of, well justified, stick on social media for their equivocal stance on Roe vs Wade.

    Although Luxon has said the Natz won't re-litigate our laws on the subject, for some unfathomable reason, few people appear to believe him.

    I wonder why? "We won't increase GST."

    • Sanctuary 2.1

      No need to revisit the law, just borrow from the GOP playbook and pass a new law defunding abortion services & forbiiding DHBs offering them so they become unaffordable and/or unavailable in any DHB. That way, abortion remains decriminalised you just won’t be able to get one.

      That is how those lying Evangelical fanatics work. Roe v Wade was settled law, until it wasn't and then it could be repealed with a fig leaf of not having lied.

    • tc 2.2

      No further asset sales etc. Luxon fronts a party with zero credibility on what they promise v what they do.

  3. dv 3

    Telling cartoon in Stuff

    Emma Cook cartoon for June 27, 2022

    • dv 3.1

      Top right Chloe Swarbrick

      Bottom right Simon O'Connor

      • Visubversa 3.1.1

        And we note who does, and who does not, use the word "women".

        • Sabine 3.1.1.1

          And who dare not use the word ' abortion' but rather wants a very open minded, de-sexed, gender neutral return to rights and healthcare that some un – named people seem to have lost.

          No one really lost rights and or health care altogether, but fertile women lost the right to a safe and legal medical service called abortion in the states that legislate against abortions thanks to federal rules.

          Abortions are a small part of sex based rights and female centric healthcare they are not the sum total of 'healthcare' and/or sex based rights.

        • Robert Guyton 3.1.1.2

          May I ask, Visubversa, if Vi Subversa is the inspiration for your handle (guessing she must be) and whether this,

          "Highly intelligent, with a voice honed by nicotine and late-night rants, Subversa refused to take the expected, often requisite, left-wing stance" describes your position well?

        • arkie 3.1.1.3

          Should we also note those who make no comment at all?

          Acknowledging that transmen and NBs will also suffer due to these law changes isn’t worse than the complicity of silence on this issue.

          But that’s just my opinion, you go off.

          • Visubversa 3.1.1.3.1

            Trans "men" only ever hit the headlines when they do that most female of things – give birth. And "non binary" is non sense. Human beings come in either 1 of 2 sexes. The rest of it is ideology and twaddle.

            • arkie 3.1.1.3.1.1

              The rest of it is ideology and twaddle.

              In your opinion. Which you are entitled to, but it is only an opinion.

              Just as an aside I do remember many headlines and much commentry made about the ‘loss of lesbians’ and other such things when Elliot Page came out in 2020

              • Visubversa

                As is their opinion that they have a "gendered soul" or are neither male nor female. Both of those things are produced by an ideology – a belief system.

                • arkie

                  And are they not also entitled to their opinions?

                  Yours too is an ideology – we all have our ideologies/belief systems.

                  • Anker

                    Biological sex is not an ideology, only females can get pregnant. Fact

                  • Sabine

                    oh they can have opinions and ideas as we all do.

                    but neither their opinions nor their ideas will ever get pregnant. That would be their female sexed body who does that, generally after a penis ejaculated into their vaginas and sperm meets egg and bingo voila a future human was created.

                    And btw, Arkie, no matter the Lady feels of penis havers, non of these ideas, opinions and feelz of a penis haver will ever need an abortion.

                    • arkie

                      Transmen and NB people aren't 'penis havers' hence why they may need an abortion. No one except you has previously mentioned transwomen I would note.

                    • Sabine
                      • but neither their opinions nor their ideas will ever get pregnant. That would be their female sexed body who does that, generally after a penis ejaculated into their vaginas and sperm meets egg and bingo voila a future human was created.

                      that refers to women who want to be non binary or transmen.

                      • this refers to men who want to be women or are non binaries with women feelz so they need access to all the wominz things.

                      And btw, Arkie, no matter the Lady feels of penis havers, non of these ideas, opinions and feelz of a penis haver will ever need an abortion.

                      Only one of them is able to give birth, and its the body of the female. 🙂

                      And i mention transwomen, as they too want to have a say on what rights females – the real ones – not the 'my feelz' ones, can have and not have. Never mind, that NO Transwoman will ever need an abortion as they are Men.

                      So women have lost the right in the US to female centric spaces such as toilets, changing rooms, rape centres, domestic violence shelters, retirment homes for women, hospital wards and so on and so froth. All of trhat came thanks to the left, while the right sat by and said 'thank you, may i have another please'. Heck they even lost the word women, pregnancy, child bearing, birthing, breastfeeding and so on and so forth. All to men. And this can and will happen here, and the left paved the way all the way.
                      Case in point Biden Signing and ED to cancel Title IX in favor of Gender ideology.

                      The right does not need to do much, they can just sit by and watch the left undo not only the work of women over the last century but to literally take women back into a time were they were not even considered human.

                      But go on and pretend that Transmen are not women. Until they need an abortion or female centric healthcare.

                      As for Chloe Swarbruck, that poor thing will sooner or later come out as non binary/transmen. She has no other option in this current Green Party, literally as she presents the worst of the worst human beings that exist – namely white cis gendered women. Heck even as a white cis gendered lesbian she would not win in the grievance/minority board game that is the Green Party.

                      Play pretend all day long, but deny biology on your own risks.

                    • arkie

                      And btw, Arkie, no matter the Lady feels of penis havers, non of these ideas, opinions and feelz of a penis haver will ever need an abortion.

                      This is the third time you have brought this up unprompted. It's not relevant in this discussion and no one but you has connected this idea to the discussion of Abortion rights. I understand you don't like transwomen, we all understand.

                      Think what you want about Chlöe Swarbrick but I think what you've said is distasteful and not remotely true. The Green party will continue to advocate for minority rights whether you see that as valuable or not.

            • Anker 3.1.1.3.1.2

              100% Visu!

              you can only get pregnant if you are a women/female sex.

          • weka 3.1.1.3.2

            Acknowledging that transmen and NBs will also suffer due to these law changes isn’t worse than the complicity of silence on this issue.

            Acknowledging TM and NB females isn't the problem. Removing women's language is.

            • arkie 3.1.1.3.2.1

              'Removing women's language' really is just a negative reframing of 'language that includes transmen and NB people'. Scare phrasing. The history of the fight for women's rights is evidence that the use of 'woman's language' didn't prevent men from 'deciding' before the common use of inclusive language.

              I find it easy (and inclusive) to argue for abortion rights from a position of advocacy for bodily autonomy. Women and other people that need access to abortion services should have that access unrestricted, because it's their body, their life.

              And I still question whether the language difference is worse, for abortion rights, than the inaction of those whose silence on the issue tacitly endorses the status quo ante.

              • Sabine

                would that be inclusive enough for you?

                Sophie Lewis

                @reproutopia

                · Jun 23

                It is a hard pill to swallow for a misogynist society, sentimentally attached to its ideology of patriarchal motherhood, but the truth is that gestators should get to decide which bodies to give form to.

                • arkie

                  My body, my choice is as succinct a demand as is possible, no one is excluded while emphasising that we all should have autonomy over our own bodies.

                  Again my question is why the language used by some is more concerning than the silence from people not prepared to stand up for women and others who might need abortion access.

                  • Sabine

                    That poor women in that tweet was not even able to state that. Lol

                    But let me explain her tweet for you as you seem to have gotten lost in all that 'non sexed' bull.

                    Gestators is referring not to males, or males with feelz about things that are stereotypically associated to the female beings, or non binary males who like to wear ladies silk/cotton and lippy, or males who moonlight as partime women.,

                    Gestators it is refering ONLY TO female bodies regardless of their presentation and self id.

                    Forming bodies – that would be referring to the incubating of a human being., something that takes 9 month and culminates with a baby either exiting via the Vagina (female sexual organ – not an inverted penis) or via a cesarian if the need arises. It is called Pregnancy.

                    Also, does My BODY MY CHOICE apply when the government wants you to take three + shots of vaccine that one may or may not approve of? ?

                    No? Then my body my choice has no meaning and must be abandoned by those that would like hte government to force people into taking medication they don't approve of. It either is MY Body MY choice, or it is not. In that case, also legalize all drugs, my body my choice, the amputation of healthy limbs or removal of eyes for those that feelz like amputees or want to be blind, and so on and so forth.

                    Choose Arkie. Choose. But understand that this Roe vs Wade decision is not a win for the right, it is however a great loss of the left. And any lefty women who is not captured by Party Ideology must ask herself what other rights the left is happy for women to lose in their quest of sex and biology denial.

                    Fear mongering does not work anymore when you stood by and lost the right to control ones body. And fwiw, quite a few Dem leaders could have done something.

                    Biden signed an Executive order to repeal Title IX in favor of Trans. He could sign an Executive order to codify abortion rights into law on a federal level. But then the left needs women to vote for them, and Losing Roe Vs Wade was a good vote getter. Now women in the US should really ask themselves how well they are served by this current administration. And guess what, they just lost the right to a lifesaving procedure in the states that don't allow abortions.

                    Maybe we need a better left, one that is not engaged in total denial of biological reality for the 50% of humanity that birthed the full 100% of humanity since the dawn of time.

                    As for the rightk, they did what they advertised since the day Roe vs Wade was decided. Be that they Hyde ammendment, trigger laws, or now R vs W.

                    It is the left that has dropped the ball on that one and it will be the poor women of the US who will pay the bill. It will not be the non binary kid of a white well to do family that will be forced to carry a pregnancy to term, or worse die because abortion as a medical life saving tool can no longer be used, worse even taught in Universities to future medical doctors. (mind these doctors will probably not know a man from a women)

                    • arkie

                      Your animus for transwomen is clear but irrelevant to anything I or Swarbrick or Sophie Lewis were saying. Women, Transmen and some NBs will require abortion access and they all should have that access as needed and without restriction. It's not that deep.

                  • Anker

                    Arkie one of the things I hear from women who support trans ideology is that they don’t like being called chest feeders etc.

                    just because some people don’t want to face up to the reality of their biology ie trans men and non binary who are actually women, we are changing our language for their beliefs that are a denial of reality.

                    I am afraid that’s a no from me and many others. Our bodies our language our choice mate. End of

                    • arkie

                      That's fine, that's your view and your choice, but don't be upset when others disagree with your determination about other peoples identity, or when people use inclusive, less gendered language, that's their choice. End of.

                • weka

                  Sabine, you have to link. Click on the date/time stamp, then copy and past the URL to the TS comment box.

                  • weka

                    please supply a link now

                    • Sabine

                      this link?

                      sorry did not realise it did not copy.

                      Mind i follow this one up with her 'clarification' about here tweet. lol

                  • Sabine

                    What did I do? where? I generally take good care to link.

      • Anker 3.1.2

        Chile comment is a good example of what happens when you degrade language….meaning is lost. She could be referring to anything

    • Jimmy 3.2

      Simon O'Connor….Labour's best performing MP!…..LOL!

  4. Ad 4

    Looking forward to the Nelson Police investigation of this recalcitrant.

    Defiant counsellor ignores conversion therapy ban | RNZ News

  5. Puckish Rogue 5

    Another nail in the coffin of woke* entertainment:

    https://variety.com/2022/film/box-office/top-gun-maverick-highest-grossing-movie-globally-1235303535/

    First Tom Cruise movie to break a billion and without having to pander to China.

    Lightyear failed, Dr Strange needed to break a billion (what does it say when a movie needs to make a billion to make money) and didn't

    A few more of these and a few more Disney flops and soon even the money men in the studios might start asking questions

    My prediction is The Little Mermaid and The Marvels will also fail, being able to hide your lack of box office behind covid and streaming will soon be over

    I can't wait for more, better, entertainment

    *I just don't mean to focus woke, I also mean intersectionality, diversity and representation, bullshit like that but woke is just a useful shorthand etc

    • Stuart Munro 5.1

      Diversity is not the death knell for movie profitability – it just isn't a substitute for a decent story. I expect most of the other irrelevancies are in the same boat too.

      • Puckish Rogue 5.1.1

        I agree, diversity doesn't have to be a death knell:

        https://www.mensjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/predator-main-223.jpg?w=1000&quality=86&strip=all

        https://s3.amazonaws.com/static.rogerebert.com/uploads/review/primary_image/reviews/aliens-1986/Aliens-image-2.jpg

        The problem is diversity seems to be more important than the storyline, just see how long you can get through this video without cringing, I'd say take a drink everytime someone says something woke but that would probably lead to hospitalization/death:

        I'm currently working my way through New Who at the moment and its woke but its still in the basis of a good storyline so its fine (I will not be watching the 13th Dr, Dr Karen though)

        Too many entertainment properties are looking at what woke elements they can add at the expense of the storyline, imho and they’ll start paying the price at the box office

        I just wonder how many more properties will be ruined before this period is over

        • Stuart Munro 5.1.1.1

          Well, it's hard for Americans. They struggle with fantasy & scifi, having had relatively poor role models like Robert Jordan & Terry Brooks. Half the genre for their market (the better half) is made in Canadia – which has a better education system, hence The Expanse.

          Not sure about Rings of Power – my pirate site of choice doesn't have it yet. Overall I expect Carnival Row will be more fun. House of the Dragon has been fairly good from what I've seen – GRRM may be hanging on to A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms though, until he meets a crew that won't screw it up.

          • Puckish Rogue 5.1.1.1.1

            The Expanse was good, we just need more like it. The Orvilles not bad either.

            I haven't watched Carnival Row but René Echevarria looks to have a pretty decent track record.

            I'd like GRRM to pull finger, stop faffing about and get back to finishing The Winds Of Winter but I don't think he ever will, check out what hes done since A Dance With Dragons and thats only writing

      • Descendant Of Smith 5.1.2

        Most films lose money. Indeed, 80% do.

        https://www.forbes.com/sites/schuylermoore/2019/01/03/most-films-lose-money/?sh=47ec3d95739f

        And without a push for diversity we would likely never have seen a Black Panther movie (or indeed a Whale rider or a Boy and might have had to watch reruns of the dreary The Piano over and over and over.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_(film)

        You can't view the Marvel stuff as just the movie though. There's money made from the merchandising even if the film doesn't make money. I've enjoyed watching them in time sequence order – much more coherent and sensible. Some definitely better than others though. And I like the Jodie Whittaker Dr Who. She has the same degree of eccentricity that I like in The Doctors and frankly that it is a female rather than male for me makes not one iota of difference. Got used to that type of change when they rebooted Battlestar Galactica with Katee Sackhoff being the new Starbuck. After that it just became normalised.

        I'm not sure why people get upset about it and going on about it being PC or woke is just being a dick. I like variety and diversity. It is the quality of the script and the acting that is much more important.

        • Stuart Munro 5.1.2.1

          The push for diversity is secondary to the narrative – or you have a sermon, not a movie.

          And, in the event that there is a pre-existing artwork upon which the cinematic adventure is based, the original deserves enough respect to protect it from egregious and bad taste changes. Looking at you, Peter Jackson, mutilator of The Hobbit.

          The woke crowd have never done anything for me, and when my colleagues were committing suicide like flies, they not only didn't give a fuck, but in fact began harassing me for mentioning it. I say "quack".

          • Puckish Rogue 5.1.2.1.1

            "The woke crowd have never done anything for me, and when my colleagues were committing suicide like flies, they not only didn't give a fuck, but in fact began harassing me for mentioning it. I say "quack".'

            Damn dude, thats harsh. What job do you do to have colleagues like that?

            • Stuart Munro 5.1.2.1.1.1

              They were deepsea fishermen – the generation that lost their job security to the slave fishermen. Can't compete with folk on $2 US a day.

              • Puckish Rogue

                For what it's worth I feel for you

              • Descendant Of Smith

                I don't get the connection between the woke crowd and the suicides.

                I know tradesmen who committed suicide after then businesses failed after being forced to become self-employed contractors (good tradesmen but not good at bookwork and a really short learning curve, men who were laid off in their 50's via Rogernomics who were never able to find a job again, and recently a young friend after losing his job through a business ceasing got sick of applying for job after job and in most cases not even getting a response. Good kid, never been in trouble. Good worker. Watched him grow up since 5. There's quite a few more I can think of.

                Nothing to do with anything but employers and capitalism that chews people up and spits them out. The example you give to me looks like the race to the bottom type of capitalism as well.

                Unsure why the woke aspect unless it is a bit like my wife. She grew up with a lot of church / youth group influence but when she needed some support from who she thought were her friends it wasn't forthcoming. All talk but when the chips were down they didn't want to know. I've seen that scenario play out a few times and picked up the pieces – ended up a few times with people living with us for months while they got into a good space.

                Wife is still angry at times about this which I don't blame her. I'm not that sympathetic to the notion you should forget about it. I think it is OK to be angry about it now and then and to remind people that these things occurred. If it never gets talked about it is like it never existed.

                • Stuart Munro

                  The woke crowd had taken over Labour – when I went for support to the party of the workers, it transpired than they did not care about sending young New Zealander workers to their deaths, nor were they concerned by being complicit in a slaveship operation.

                  A lot of their moral logic on tolerance of rainbow issues is predicated on a narrative of reducing youth suicides. Faced with real instances however, it turned out that youth suicides didn't matter to them at all. The hypocrisy was breathtaking. I believe they have improved slightly in the meantime – but they have considerable ground to make up.

                  • Descendant Of Smith

                    I understand now.

                    I feel the same way about their response to poverty (and WEAG only reinforced that). Youth in particular. Too many of my kids friends have passed away with the struggle and grind through suicide.

                    It became obvious to me as well that they didn't really care that much about the reality of peoples situations. But then it was Labour that started Rogernomics so I'm not too surprised actually.

                    This lie by Roberston made me feel ill. He's only referring to the $20-00 per week cut which over time had the least effect. I can only re-iterate time and time again that benefits and NZS used to be the same amount before Ruth Richardson did her budget.

                    “With the changes that we have made today we will finally return all main benefits to their values before that budget,” he said of former National finance minister Ruth Richardson’s mother of all budgets. “This is righting a wrong.”

                    What is the point of making all these people struggle from day to day?

                    Even when experts do their analysis they fuck it up by ignoring the delinking of benefits from the average wage and only doing an inflation assessment comparison which is a self-perpetuating fuck-up. Because benefits were linked to inflation now of course they rose at the same rate as inflation. That was the intention.

                    We'll just pretend that the actual biggest change – decoupling from the average wage didn't occur. NZS which wasn't uncoupled streaked ahead.

                    So does the 2021 budget directly undo the 1991 benefit cuts? Not exactly. By 2020 benefits had already been returned to similar levels in terms of purchasing power to what they were before the cuts in 1991. The 2021 budget closed what small gap remained and then added some more. Perhaps such a statement about reversing the ‘Mother of All Budgets’ says more about the politics of budgets than about the economics.

                    https://www.canterbury.ac.nz/news/2021/fact-check–did-the-2021-budget-reverse-1991s-mother-of-all-budgets-benefit-cuts.html

                    WEAG also pointed out the youth issue and recommended all youth be paid the adult rate. I had miles more time for Sue Bradford than anyone in the Labour Party in the end. It was just like talking to a brick wall.

                    Are they better than National – yep. Are they better enough to get my support – nope. Still a long way to go.

        • Puckish Rogue 5.1.2.2

          That is simply incorrect.

          Here is a movie trailer from 20 years ago. I could have used Blade but Blade 2 is the superior movie:

          I could also have used Halle Berry in either 2004 or as the leader of the X Men from 2000

          I have no issues with any entertainment being made, I do have an issue when an existing property is changed merely to suit the whims of present day woke culture

          • Descendant Of Smith 5.1.2.2.1

            Blade, a movie I am fond of, was a movie with a good action movie black lead actor. Nearly everyone else in the movie was white. I do like Kris Kristofferson in the movie as well. That was cool.

            Black Panther was much more of an African story and resonates much more as different – even though I don't think it is as good a movie.

            I suspect that is the main difference between the two in terms of thinking or wokeness – take your pick.

    • Incognito 5.2

      You have identified the unidentified enemy in TGM. Well done! I’ll know what anti-woke jetfighters look like, if I were to watch it (over my dead body); they’ll be the ones with the cheap bumper sticker labels that blow off so easily that overzealous fans have to keep sticking them back on all the time.

      • Puckish Rogue 5.2.1

        Thats nice Spanish Archer

        • Robert Guyton 5.2.1.1

          What does that mean, Puckish Rogue?

          I understand that to give someone the "Spanish archer" equals giving them the elbow, but why do you say that to Incognito?

          • Incognito 5.2.1.1.1

            That would be you (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-25-03-2022/#comment-1878545) and me (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-25-03-2022/#comment-1878600) and then a Mod note from me to PR (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-26-03-2022/#comment-1878762). Since then, PR has been using this new-found epitaph as a silly snide attempt aimed at me and it really hurts 😀

            • Robert Guyton 5.2.1.1.1.1

              Kinda like we created an eddy and Pucky's still caught in it.

            • Puckish Rogue 5.2.1.1.1.2

              (At an appointment so have to be quick)

              You called yourself that so I'm merely following your example but I get why you're salty

              National/Act able to form a coalition, the attacks on Luxon not working and now Roe v Wade consigned to the history books

              • Robert Guyton

                National/ACT able to form a coalition?

                That's a hoot.

                Have they won an election?

                If they haven't, you're blowing.

              • Incognito

                National/Act able to form a coalition

                18 months out from the Election!? Well, that would save a lot of money 😀

                the attacks on Luxon not working

                Then why is he sweating like a pig?

                Roe v Wade consigned to the history books

                We must learn from history or else we’re doomed to repeat it here in NZ.

                Zorro says sajonara.

                • alwyn

                  "National/Act able to form a coalition" and "18 months out from the Election!? Well, that would save a lot of money".

                  Many a true word is said in what the speaker thinks is a jest.

                  Oh, if only they could form a coalition now it certainly would save a lot of money, wouldn't it? How many billions do you think? I would think $10b would probably be at the bottom end of the scale.

                  By the way I wouldn't look forward to 18 months before the election. Down to 16 months I should think

                  • Robert Guyton

                    "Oh, if only they could form a coalition now it certainly would save a lot of money, wouldn't it? How many billions do you think? I would think $10b would probably be at the bottom end of the scale."

                    It's irresponsible of them not to. Dreadful money-managers, both!

                  • Incognito

                    You think it’ll be late Oct 2023? Possibly, but I wouldn’t be so sure 🙂

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_New_Zealand_general_election#Election_date

                    As to how much money we would save, nobody knows because they have lost their envelope.

                    • alwyn

                      I personally would pick the end of October, although it could easily go back into November. That was the common month in the 1950s and 60s.

                      That would be it though. It is a long time since they had an election in December and they won't try for a January one. People are simply too distracted after the end on November to take any notice.

                  • Incognito

                    OMG! Your JC fetish has made way for a TC obsession!

                    • Robert Guyton

                      "JC" … who?

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Hes the last, great movie star.

                      Hell the guy scored his biggest hit and first billion dollar box office at 59 years old

                      I do admire his work ethic and his desire to create great entertainment

                    • Incognito []

                      Hes the last, great movie star.

                      Nope, that was Johnny Weissmuller and he died decades ago.

                      Hell the guy scored his biggest hit and first billion dollar box office at 59 years old

                      Not bad for a solo act but how does this prove anything, e.g., his ‘greatness’? He does look remarkably preserved.

                      I do admire his work ethic and his desire to create great entertainment

                      I know nothing about his “work ethic” and when some people mention “work ethic” and “hard work” it makes my skin crawl because they really mean something different from getting up on time each morning and brushing your teeth after breakfast.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      I'm not surprised you think this, you thought using Spanish Archer was something that made you look, what you consider, hip or cool rather than the reality of being obscure and out of touch

                      Word of advice for you, if most people have no idea what you're talking and have to google it then the phrase probably isn't working as well as you think it is

                      Firstly Tom Cruises range.

                      Drama, Comedy, Thriller, Action, Sci-Fi shows he has a very good range

                      The accolades he, rightly, received for Born On The Fourth Of July shows hes a very good, very under rated, actor

                      His physical acting and willingness to push the boundries shows hes right up there with Buster Keaton and Jackie Chan

                      So yeah hes a great and at his age when most people are slowing down hes doing best work

                      But then I'm guessing you're just a bit down over emerging trend of the polls showing National/Act leading, worried that Ardern will be given the Spanish Archer? cool

                    • Incognito []

                      Yup, hip & cool is the stage of life I’m at after my short phase of obscure & out of touch. It’s called development (aka wise down). Soon I’ll be watching Blue’s Clues for guidance and Barney as my lifestyle coach. I’m afraid I’ve never had a Tom Cruise phase and I don’t think it is gonna happen this lifetime.

                      Cruise may have done some good stuff but that doesn’t make him great let alone “the last, great movie star”. A box office hit doesn’t make him great either, it makes the movie franchise successful.

                      I prefer Johnny Weissmuller’s physical ‘acting’ because he had real physical presence that was and could not be faked.

                      BTW, I’m surprised if you need to Google anything of the above and/or of the comment that you replied to; was it “brushing your teeth after breakfast”? If yes, this link might help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tooth_brushing

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      I absoludely refute ant suggestion that you, Spanish Archer, is out of touch and talking out his arse.

                      You are of course entitled to your opinion as I am to mine (personally speaking making a sequel over 30 years after the original, and bettering it, is pretty damn impressive) so instead I'll leave it to some others to see what they have to say

                      https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/20/business/media/tom-cruise-top-gun-maverick.html

                      [excessive number of links deleted. That’s spam and the comment gets held up in Pending which annoys mods]

                      Toodles

                    • weka []

                      mod note.

                    • Incognito []

                      LOL!

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      To Weka:

                      Noted and out of interest is there a max amount of links we can put in, just so I know for next time

                    • Incognito []

                      10

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      To Spanish Archer

                      Simon Pegg disagrees with you:

                      https://fandomwire.com/hes-perhaps-the-only-movie-star-left-simon-pegg-reveals-why-tom-cruise-is-last-of-his-kind-in-hollywood/

                      The Guardian and the LA Times also disagree with you (yes I chose left wing papers)

                      https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jun/08/top-gun-maverick-tom-cruise

                      https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/story/2022-05-27/the-inexplicably-ageless-and-fearless-tom-cruise

                      But hey you do you Spanish Archer, if its popular it must be bad because what do the plebs know

                    • Incognito []

                      That’s nice to know but none of those others are commenting here and you are, so what matters is your opinions and how you can put your arguments together. I actually like Simon Pegg as an actor, but that headline fooled me, and I cannot see how it shows that he [Pegg] disagrees with me 🙁

                      I doubt that I’ve said that TGM is “bad” because I have not seen it.

                      I doubt that I’ve called you “plebs”.

                      It looks to me that you cannot argue your own opinions very well, which is why you have to call in support from and hide behind others’ views to impress me into bowing to your opinion of TGM and TC – how can I not be in awe of TGM and TC as the greatest actor alive! I must be outdated and out of touch! – and which is why you start putting words into my mouth. I don’t take my cues from infotainment sources or talk-back unlike some others here.

                      If you hadn’t made those stupid anti-woke comments in the context of TGM I wouldn’t have given you so much rope.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      'That’s nice to know but none of those others are commenting here and you are, so what matters is your opinions and how you can put your arguments together.'

                      Cool so from word of mouth Spanish Archer no one needs to link to anything because its all about your opinions, good to know moving on

                      'I actually like Simon Pegg as an actor, but that headline fooled me, and I cannot see how it shows that he [Pegg] disagrees with me'

                      Did you miss this: ‘He’s perhaps the only movie star left’, let me guess you'll dance on the head of pin to argue that doesn't mean hes the last great movie star

                      'I doubt that I’ve said that TGM is “bad” because I have not seen it.'

                      'I doubt that I’ve called you “plebs”.'

                      You did say this:

                      'I have greatly enjoyed Hollywood movies in the past, even the action flicks, but taste develops with time & experience just as good wine ripens [intentional pun; hope it wasn’t too subtle for you]'

                      So now of course you'll claim you weren't saying Hollywood movies are 'bad' nor the people that enjoy them plebs

                      I'll admit you didn't say the exact words but we both know what you were implying

                      'It looks to me that you cannot argue your own opinions very well, which is why you have to call in support from and hide behind others’ views to impress me into bowing to your opinion of TGM and TC – how can I not be in awe of TGM and TC as the greatest actor alive!'

                      Well yes people do use links to back up their words especially in areas where they're less informed, is this a surprise to you?

                      'I must be outdated and out of touch! – and which is why you start putting words into my mouth.'

                      Well yes, your use of Spanish Archer certainly proved that

                      'I don’t take my cues from infotainment sources or talk-back unlike some others here.'

                      When its entertainment related I go to a wide range of sources, infotainment being one.

                      However I can't recall the last time I listened to talkback

                      'If you hadn’t made those stupid anti-woke comments in the context of TGM I wouldn’t have given you so much rope.'

                      Woke is ruining movies, I stand by the comments but since you yourself admitted to not watching Hollywood movies for years who are you to say if I'm right or wrong as only one of us here watch Hollywood movies

                      So I suggest that watch a few Hollywood movies and then, and only then, can you come back and argue badly whatever point it is you’re trying to make

                      Ta Ta Spanish Archer, its been real

                    • Incognito []

                      Nope. Links (but not too many) are good and sometimes required to support assertions and claims of fact, not to wave opinions around from others to hide behind as if they’re one’s own but then to claim that they were not when one is challenged on them, which is disingenuous commenting behaviour. Nice try though, but a Fail nonetheless.

                      Yes, I missed that, so perhaps Simon Pegg would disagree with me on that if Simon Pegg were to comment here, but he isn’t, is he? You’re clutching at straws.

                      So, taste develops and usually gets more refined. That doesn’t imply at all those previous experiences were ‘bad’ nor that people who do enjoy those guilty pleasures are ‘plebs’. You’re clutching at straws.

                      Odd, my taste has moved on and become more refined and you argue that I am outdated and out of touch. Very odd, indeed, almost contradictory, wouldn’t you agree?

                      I don’t think I’ll watch TGM, also because of the anti-woke message it contains according to you or isn’t that what you’ve been implying?

                      I now remember watching Arrival and I quite enjoyed it. Apparently, it passes the Bechdel Test. Is that too woke for you?

                      TTFN

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      No.

                      Hollywood is still where the most popular movies come from.

                      You admit to moving on from Hollywood which means you're not watching Hollywood movies

                      So yes you are out of touch

                    • Incognito []

                      Indie movies, all the way. Move with the times, you dinosaur, celebrating old actors in old franchises. You’re so stuck in your habitual tastes that you have no idea what you’re missing out on. I don’t give a toss about popularity because it is a meaningless measure of joy, for me, and thus I give it the Kondo treatment. When I check a movie on IMDB I don’t look at its popularity at all, ever. What a silly way to make choices!

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      'When I check a movie on IMDB I don’t look at its popularity at all, ever. What a silly way to make choices!'

                      Its a great way to keep in touch with what the majority of people are into

                      You know so you can keep in touch

                    • Incognito []

                      I’ll let you know when I turn into a sheep.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      I'm sure you will

                    • Incognito []

                      You liked it so much that you liked it 13 times! Wow, no wonder you liked Tom Cruise.

        • Incognito 5.2.1.2

          No, it’s not. The irony is that you hail this as an example and benchmark of entertainment without a message, woke or whatever, and are tripping over yourself to attach your own message to it. It must have been some story-less and message-less vacuous movie to create such an urge in you.

          • Puckish Rogue 5.2.1.2.1

            Heres why it matters:

            "politics is downstream from culture"

            'if you want to change politics you first have to change culture because politics flows from culture. If you want to change culture, you have to first understand what the units of culture are, and the people are the units of culture. So, if you want to change politics, you first have to change people to change culture.'

            Whats the most popular movie this year in the USA:

            https://www.boxofficemojo.com/year/2022/

            The people are voting with their wallets, they're saying what they want and what they don't want.

            There are messages in Top Gun:Macerick but its not the message the Left want to champion.

            Even Hilary Clinton gets it:

            • Incognito 5.2.1.2.1.1

              There are political messages in TGM?? Do tell, besides the anti-woke epitaph that you and others have attached to it with fervour without realising the immense irony. You seem to see TGM as some kind of backlash!? In other words, the absence of a message is the message, which is just too deep for me and Mr ‘Maverick’ Cruise, I suspect, but then again, he’s used to subliminal messaging.

              I just wasted 3:17 min on some garbage about HRC 🙁

              • Puckish Rogue

                You'll see.

                Trump or De Santis in 2024.

                Luxon and Seymour 2023.

                Get used to it broken heart

                • Sabine

                  De Santis 2024 has a good chance, mind if Biden does not last till then and Kamala Harris get the care taker role all bets are off.

                  In NZ, yes I can see a N/A coalition, but would not be surprised if N manages to go along.

                  L under Cunliffee was 26.7 % in 2014, and i doubt that the Leader of the L's will be running if they get any more non affirmative press or the polls go down another few points which they will. And fwiw, like after Helen Clark, the dudes of the Labour Party are still the same unelectable beige suits they were before the elevation of the current leader and this time they have run out of presentable quota non males /uterushavers /brithing people to shove to the forefront to hide a losing dude.

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    The only way forward for the Democrats at the moment is for someone, anyone, other than Biden and Harris

                    The issue for De Santis is hes a doing a really good job in Florida and maybe he should stay there a bit longer

                    I really can't see National getting anywhere near winning by themselves, nor would I want them to

                    • Sabine

                      i agree with you on most, but the last line. While i don't want them to win, they stand a good chance of doing so.

                      My friend went into the family shower room of a large public pool just to come across full bodied male showering in it cause women feels.

                      that will peak one after another, slowly slowly. And while N signed up to that bullshit most women will not know that. And the question is for women voters, be a publicly traded utility for all under the Left or be private property under the right.

                      Suck 40 dicks a day for dinner /shelter, or suck one dick. What do you think it is going to be? Edit: Or for those that don’t want to marry / suck one dick only for ever, they can make money then for their upkeep by being birthing bodies for others, lactating for others, selling their ova whilst they are fertile. Honestly someone please answer me that question? Because this is were this is going to.

                      Insert a picture of Quark saying ‘female’. Naked, no rights other then to negotiate their wombrental for the Ferengi Female.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      'Suck 40 dicks a day for dinner /shelter, or suck one dick.'

                      Probably the same question a lot of Hollywood actors and actresses (do we still say that?) have had to ask themselves to get a role

                • Incognito

                  You’re diverting away from the political pseudo-non-messages in TGM.

                  I will never get used to an imaginary future because it may never happen! It’s just foolish wishful thinking, like hoping to win Lotto.

    • swordfish 5.3

      .
      Woke is the perfect term … short, snappy, initially adopted with some gusto by the ID Pols cadre themselves but now hitting a raw nerve & deeply upsetting to them.

      They would have you believe it's all about "anti-racism" & "anti-sexism" in the broadest & vaguest of terms … but, of course, it refers to a very specific, extreme & highly discriminatory dogma serving the interests of a segment of the professional middle class & guaranteed to create whole new forms of social injustice on a massive scale.

      An elite authoritarian vanity project that systematically scapegoats swathes of the Left's traditional constituency: working people & the poor.

      • Robert Guyton 5.3.1

        "Woke" is the perfect term for commenters who operate at the name-calling level.

      • Incognito 5.3.2

        LOL! Are we still talking about that elite vanity project by that working class hero Tom Cruise? Instead of letting them eat cake they have an even better opiate for the masses: mindless parading of military masculinity and jingoistic patriotism. If Trump were still president, he’d bestow an honour on Mr Cruise (missile).

        • swordfish 5.3.2.1

          .

          Was commenting on the current subversion & perversion of core Left principles & democratic norms … precisely zero interest in whatever inane shite Tom Cruise is currently promoting … his only relevance here is his devotion to Scientology … a dogma that bears some resemblance to the various sub-branches of Wokedom's Critical Theory in its cultish attributes, tendency toward struggle sessions / purity spirals & total disconnect from anything approaching reality.

          • Puckish Rogue 5.3.2.1.1

            He can be as mad as he likes as long as he keeps putting out quality movies like he has been (hes been on a real tear of late) and that he doesn't do anything seriously illegal

            • Incognito 5.3.2.1.1.1

              So, pretty legal is ok then?

              • Puckish Rogue

                I'm not a judge nor my brothers keeper Spanish Archer

                • Robert Guyton

                  I love it when Incognito gives you the Spanish archer!

                • Incognito

                  We know your current job and I’m not interested in your CV nor your family situation, just in your fascinating statement about “seriously illegal” and what that means, to you. For example, parking in a disabled spot, or not picking up the doggie doo after a number two, or being a peeping Tom?

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    Case by case basis innit but as an example of actors going off the deep end

                    Mel Gibson = not so bad

                    Juicy Smollet = bad

                    • Incognito

                      So, “seriously illegal” is context-dependent and sometimes it is just “pretty legal”?

          • Nic the NZer 5.3.2.1.2

            While I didn't see any branches of Critical Theory which fall in this category, for many involved in Scientology it appears to function as a harmful cult. Members of the sea org in particular who appear to be recruited into being a slave work force.

    • Subliminal 5.4

      So long as you realise that its the same type of fantasy as the Marvel movies which at least are recognisable as such. US N and AF are having a field day in signing up young fantasists to a life with a very high rate of suicide. Pentagon written and produced with an absolute right to dictate the story and actors.

      • Puckish Rogue 5.4.1

        Of course its a fantasy but its certainly not the same type as Disney Marvel (you have to differentiate between Marvel and Disney Marvel)

        It is fantastic entertainment though, what movies used to be like, what movies people still want today

        • Subliminal 5.4.1.1

          I find the star wars story line is getting a bit tired now. Once again the rebel forces fly their fighters down a narrow channel flanked by enemy weaponry to deliver the killer missile down the air duct that is the one weak point.

          • Puckish Rogue 5.4.1.1.1

            Theres a homage to that (or Dambusters) in Top Gun:Maverick

            But yes since Disney bought out Star Wars (and Marvel) they've bot gone downhill

            Can't think why…

            https://www.piratesandprincesses.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Kathleen-Kennedy-THe-Force-is-Female.jpg

            View post on imgur.com

            https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/20161119-skywalkerranch8400-h_2016_thr.jpg?w=681&h=383&crop=1

            • weka 5.4.1.1.1.1

              Because women make shit movies?

              • Puckish Rogue

                Some women make great movies, some women make bad movies.

                This particular woman destroys franchises (remember this if Indian Jones 5 ever comes out)

                Now I could point out how bad the movies and TV series shes overseen have been or I could just post this:

                Its from Marcia Lucas, I assume you've heard of her:

                https://variety.com/2021/film/news/star-wars-marcia-lucas-kathleen-kennedy-jj-abrams-1235069465/

                'And they think it’s important to appeal to a woman’s audience, so now their main character is this female, who’s supposed to have Jedi powers, but we don’t know how she got Jedi powers, or who she is. It sucks. The storylines are terrible. Just terrible. Awful. You can quote me'

                • Nic the NZer

                  How long have you thought that movie series is called Indian Jones?

                • weka

                  nope, haven't heard of her.

                  You're problem here is that you are conflating a number of things: someone who makes shit movies with being female (yes, you did post that photo), and bringing woke into film equates to shit movies.

                  Do you know what the Bechdel Test is? Changing filmmaking to make films more interesting to women is a good thing.

                  Plenty of shit films out there made by men. Is the film in question shit because it's made by a women (or man), or because it's too woke, or because it just is a bad film in terms of plot, character, acting etc?

                  Multiverse is second on your box office list. I wouldn't call it a great film. I like the Dr Strange storylines, so I watched it and mostly enjoyed it but its a 3/5 kind of thing. I found the America character stereotyped and boring. I'm getting burned out on the contrivances of let's make up any old magic/alternative reality stuff, but I don't know the comics so have zero sense of if this is true to form or they're just doing whatever the hell they like. It wasn't too bad on this, but some films are obviously structured for the pleasure of the special effects team (I also find this boring because too often it tries to stand in for storyline or character).

                  Can't see the woke causing a problem in there though. The stereotpying is embedded in Hollywood, the alt reality contrivances are probably because the series has been running so long. Dunno why they can't just write good stories. Maybe they're spread too thin.

                  • weka

                    exhibit B:

                    Could be woke, there was a female pilot.

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    You haven't heard of Marcia Lucas, well from the article it says:

                    'She served as an editor on “Star Wars,” for which she won the Oscar for film editing in 1977, and “Return of the Jedi,” and she was an uncredited editor on “The Empire Strikes Back.” Lucas was credited with editing the thrilling Battle of Yavin and Death Star assault sequences in the first film of the trilogy. Her other editing credits include “Taxi Driver,” for which she earned an BAFTA nod, “American Graffiti,” which nabbed her an Oscar nom, “Alice Doesn’t Live Here Anymore” and “New York, New York.”'

                    So you know what I feel confident that she knows what shes talking about when it comes to Star Wars AND movie making so I'll defer to her when it comes to her views on Kathleen Kennedy

                    'You're problem here is that you are conflating a number of things: someone who makes shit movies with being female (yes, you did post that photo), and bringing woke into film equates to shit movies.'

                    Yes, I posted those pics to show how woke Star Wars has become and who was to blame.

                    Rey was an afterthought, Finn was going to be the main star of Disney Star Wars until KK pulled rank and had a self-insert added and Finn got absolutely crapped on.

                    'Do you know what the Bechdel Test is?'

                    The Bechdel Test doesn't tell me if as movie is good or not.

                    As an idea I googled best movies to pass the Bechdel test and this what came up:

                    https://www.gamesradar.com/au/best-movies-that-pass-the-bechdel-test/3/

                    Some of my favourite movies are on this list (see if you can guess) but also Ghostbusters 2016, The Last Jedi and Frozen are on this list as well

                    'Changing filmmaking to make films more interesting to women is a good thing.'

                    Absolutely and I agree with that. Just stop using, and changing, established series to do it.

                    Start a new series, make new titles, show some originality and create more entertainment.

                    'Plenty of shit films out there made by men. Is the film in question shit because it's made by a women (or man), or because it's too woke, or because it just is a bad film in terms of plot, character, acting etc?'

                    There are, my views on Disney Star Wars are well known. The problem is, especially with Disney movies, is that most of the answers is yes because of how much imput KK has

                    Shes the main reason the movies suck

                    'they're just doing whatever the hell they like.'

                    This. Absolutely this. Remember this film was basically remade on the fly very quickly because of the success of the previous Spiderman movie.

                    The bosses then decided that because people reacted positivley to all the characters coming back they should have more characters in Dr Strange so they filmed a shit-ton of new scenes and added even more cameos which is why it had to break a billion (it fell just short)

                    What they didnt understand is that the additions in Spiderman worked because it was part of the story, because you could tell the actors were into it and the characters were treated with respect

                    Also the Dr Strange movie also followed on the events of the WandaVision series which started strongly but ended really badly

                    Dr Strange was supposed to be in that but Kevin Feige didn't want a man teaching Wanda, even though hes the Sorcerer Supreme:

                    https://tvline.com/2021/05/03/wandavision-doctor-strange-cameo-benedict-cumberbatch-kevin-feige-marvel/

                    'Dunno why they can't just write good stories'

                    Gee I wonder why…

                    https://jezebel.com/the-oscars-best-picture-inclusion-requirements-turn-div-1844997080

                    https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/sep/05/warner-bros-adopts-company-wide-inclusion-policy-to-boost-diversity

                    https://deadline.com/2021/06/amazon-studios-inclusion-policy-playbook-1234776831/

                    They literally (yes literally) have people with checklists going over scripts and deciding if the script is inclusive enough

                    • Sabine

                      A really neat Syfy Western with an awesome female role, lots of gender non conforming roles, etc and diversity!!!

                      Kill Joys.

                      epic on all accounts. Excellent actors, excellent scenery, excellent world building, and no woke prostelising what so ever.

                      Sadly they finished the show (yei for that) and stopped it. Mind that could have been a good thing, but gosh did i enjoy that series.

                      https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3952222/

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      I thought you were talking Firefly at first but I'll check out Killjoys as well

                    • Sabine

                      You could call Kill Joys the sequel to Fire Fly – or related kin a few hundred years down the track.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      A damn shame it was cancelled after one series

    • Muttonbird 5.5

      I reckon Top Gun: Maverick is pretty woke.

      I ask my whanau who have seen this film, "who is the enemy"? The answer is the enemy is unnamed. The studio and producers are too scared to show the enemy of Tom Cruise's west as Chinese, Russian, or Arab. Instead we are treated with opaque black visors with no clues to what manner of communist and/or Muslim villainy is behind them!

      Why can't Hollywood call a spade a spade?

      BLM gone mad, I tells ya'.

  6. Stephen D 6

    Talking about the SCOTUS, is Brown V Board of Education safe?

    • joe90 6.1

      Mr Jackson has questions.

    • Red Blooded One 6.2

      Is it still SCOTUS or is it now SCROTUS with the uneven balance of Republicans?

  7. Incognito 7

    The defence will give its closing arguments on Monday 27 June, after which it's likely Justice Jagose will reserve his decision.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/469693/crown-calls-nz-first-foundation-deed-a-sham-as-it-closes-donations-case

    Any updates yet?

    A nice example of a small party wielding disproportionate political power and a warning against the weak arguments suggesting that National will not touch present Abortion Law in NZ.

  8. arkie 8

    The Greens,
    Necessary to spur Labour into action;

    In a statement, Allan said an Electoral Amendment Bill would soon be introduced to tighten the rules for disclosure of political donations and loans, and temporarily widen access for overseas voters.

    The bill would require the identity of donors of more than $5000 to be made public – down from $15,000 – along with loans to candidates from unregistered lenders.

    Parties would also be required to make public their financial statements, the number and total value of non-anonymous donations below $1500, and the proportion of total donations that are non-monetary.

    Allan, who came to the role two weeks ago, said public and targeted consultation showed New Zealanders wanted greater transparency about how candidates and parties were funded.

    "Better transparency of party and candidate financing helps support public trust and confidence in our electoral system. These changes will provide the public with more of the information they want," she said.

    The bill offers a more constrained and Labour-led approach to similar changes proposed in a member's bill from Green Party justice spokesperson Golriz Ghahraman.

    Drawn from the biscuit tin last month, the member's bill would also have allowed Māori roll voters to change roll at any time, lower the voting age to 16, overturn the prisoner voting ban, and implement the recommendations of the 2012 MMP review.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/469854/political-donations-overseas-voting-rules-to-change-before-election-minister

    “No one wants an American style of politics in New Zealand. Together with a cap on how much can be donated to political parties each year, we can truly remove the risk of big money interference in New Zealand democracy. And this is precisely what my Electoral (Strengthening Democracy) Amendment Bill, which was introduced to Parliament last month, will achieve.

    “The Green Party also welcomes the changes to eligibility rules for overseas voters, also introduced in my Democracy Bill. Throughout the COVID-19 pandemic we were the only party calling for an extension to the three-year time-frame so New Zealanders stuck overseas can still exercise their democratic rights.

    “The changes announced today are a step forward but it is disappointing that it is only a temporary measure for the 2023 General Election. The residency requirement must be removed for all citizens, as is the case in most other countries, so that there are no longer unnecessary barriers to participation.”

    https://www.greens.org.nz/democracy_reforms_green_win_but_need_cap_donations

    • Sacha 8.1

      Parties would also be required to make public their financial statements

      And won't Winston just love that.

      • Robert Guyton 8.1.1

        "won't"

      • Belladonna 8.1.2

        Apparently it doesn't matter, there's some form of group just floating around that take money in and dole it out as the whim of the leader dictates. Financial statements? Who needs 'em!

        /sarc/

  9. Stephen D 9

    With NATO, does anybody know if it can go on the offensive if attacked. Should Putin attack Lithuania to “defend” Kaliningrad, would NATO forces push back deep into Russia, or do they have to stop at the border?

    • Subliminal 9.1

      I dont recall Nato abiding by any "rules". Not sure which Nato country was invaded when they bombed Belgrade? Same with Libya.

    • Cricklewood 9.2

      You would certainly see retaliatory strikes on key infrastructure inside Russia but boots on the ground would be most unlikely and pretty much impossible to do effectively.

      Basically a missile war that once started will be disastrous.

    • Joe90 9.3

      After the debacle of their 3 day special operation, it's obvious they have no ability to conduct conventional military operations against NATO.

      But torpedo oil tankers in Dutch ports and use tactical nuclear weapons against the EU?

      Even tankie twerps should be appalled by these rants.

    • Sabine 9.4

      The day Nato attacks Russia directly there will be explosions in Non Russia. Be that London, Paris, Berlin or somewhere in the US. And that is a guaranteed.

      .

  10. Stephen D 10

    So, theoretically they could missile the living daylights out of Moscow and the Kremlin.

    • Stuart Munro 10.1

      Other targets would likely take priority – Chernyakhovsk being a nuclear bomber base in Kaliningrad, the Kerch Strait Bridge, and the various Severomorsk bases on the Kola peninsula near Murmansk.

      • Subliminal 10.1.1

        Right. And I wonder what the response to either of those scenarios would be… Hmmmm…

        • Stuart Munro 10.1.1.1

          Well, controlling Russia's nuclear bomber airfields is what you do when they've totally lost it, and they need to lose their nuclear options.

          Moscow really isn't important at that point – Arguably it's not now – it's not as if one can negotiate with Putin.

    • weston 10.2

      Although Russia has excellent air defense systems and prob superior missiles as well so i would think NATO would think twice before not minding its own business and acting rashly Russia will be thinking enough is enough and Nato hopefully isnt stupid enough to prod the bear further .

  11. Puckish Rogue 11

    The Judges of the SCOTUS are getting all fired up, strange days indeed

    • Sabine 11.1

      What are women? Do they exist? Where do they exist? Are they allowed to exist? do they need permission to exist?

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