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Open Mike 27/11/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 27th, 2018 - 230 comments
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230 comments on “Open Mike 27/11/2018 ”

  1. Ed 1

    Headline news!
    Shock horror!

    Have we tipped over 1.5 degrees C ?
    Have 70% of all species disappeared since the 1970s?
    Has the government decided to abandon neoliberalism?
    Is the Ukraine about to invade the Donbass?
    Is Idlib about to be liberated?

    No, don’t be silly.
    This is New Zealand.
    And this is the Herald.

    They’re talking about the All Blacks……

    • solkta 1.1

      You should boycott them.

    • James 1.2

      So much outrage so early in the morning.

      And the news was surprising.

      Less so was hartly being dumped by Toro rosso.

      Let me guess Ed – you don’t like formula 1 either.

    • mauī 1.3

      Thank you Ed. Interesting to also see the right and the left will attack your discussion of real issues. Thank you for posting.

    • cleangreen 1.4

      Hi Ed,

      Yes the media are aways using ‘deception’ to get us off any subject that may be an embasassment to their buddies in the national Party.

      All blacks are such a tool to fill our heads with other mindless crap instead od us concentrating on ‘real issues’ that affect us all.

      • Ed 1.4.1

        Good to hear some common sense, after the ridiculous rants of right wing reactionaries dominating Open Mike today.

  2. Ed 2

    In a country where apathy doesn’t rule….

    ‘Paris protest: ‘People are in the red. They can’t afford to eat’.
    The people of France are rising up against failed neoliberalism. Macron is a failure like the Tories.’


    • DJ Ward 2.1

      Its also not understanding things.

      Putting petrol up with taxes does not hurt his voters directly as city living people don’t have cars. People in the provinces can be reliant on cars for getting groceries and getting kids to school.

      This little boy who had an affair with his school teacher is not very bright. His nationalism vs patriotism comment was idiocy.

  3. Ed 3

    Glenn Greenwald on Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem.

    “One can’t help notice that there is an enormous amount of sympathy and even affection among US media and DC think tank circles for a government that has clear, systemtic & deeply ominous ties to actual Nazi groups & neo-Nazi factions.”


    • Tuppence Shrewsbury 3.1

      Putin resorts to soviet style imperialism on its borders again and Ed cranks up with some blame the victim propaganda from a kremlin mouth piece.

      • Ed 3.1.1

        Glenn Greenwald
        Tuppence Strawberry.

        Standardistas, make up your mind who is more credible….

        • Incognito

          I’m with Groot because of his simple consistent message. Nails it every time. And he’s a greenie through and through.

        • James

          Ok. I’m with tuppence.

        • Tuppence Shrewsbury

          It’s you who lacks credibility Ed.

          Worldwide condemnation of Russia’s imperialist actions denying Ukraine access to it’s own ports from International sea lanes, and you decide now is the time to point out that ukraine has a neo-nazi problem. Russia does too, though I think they are referred to as Ultra’s there.

          • adam

            Woohoo, silly binary politics to attack a commentator.

            What fun, can I join in??!?

            Because it seems this commentator can’t have a far right loony Russia nor a far right loony Ukraine – one has to be the good guy, so they have picked their fascist of choice – Ukraine.

            • Tuppence Shrewsbury

              The comment isn’t about supporting the Ukraine, this is about condemning russian actions and calling out the mouthpieces who try to deflect attention away from their atrocious actions.

              I didn’t deny Ukraine had a neo nazi problem. i did point out russia has one too. I don’t deny the the Ukraine is essentially turning into a one party state, but I also don’t want to see Putins russia controlling that party.

              But you keep playing the man not the ball so that Russia can persist in setting up new soviet satellites. that’ll be great for the world again.

              • adam

                No you played the Ed rather than context, I just pointed out you did and you seemed to have got upset by it.

                So you missed enactment of martial law in Ukraine?

                Greenwald is not a puppet for Putin, and if you think that he is – you need your head examined.

                • Tuppence Shrewsbury

                  I pointed out the coincidentally timed comments of Ed’s just as Russia seizes Ukraine’s boats. He has form for propagandising for Russia just as they behave badly.

                  Your probably right about greenwald, but Edis bought and paid kremlin

            • te reo putake

              Actually, this is the first ‘binary’ comment:

              “Glenn Greenwald
              Tuppence Strawberry.

              Standardistas, make up your mind who is more credible….”

              I’d be nice if we could concentrate on the message, not the messenger, people.

              • gsays

                Hey TRP, a good point, but belated or ill aimed.

                I have pulled Ed up recently on his pooh pooping of the media coverage of the ABs and called him out on the binary nature of his attitude.

                Tuppence’s comment include a barb that is no more than an attack on the messenger-Putin mouthpiece.

                I don’t think it is an unreasonable response to compare Tuppence’s I reckon to Glenn Grenwalds analysis.

                Your comment of “I’d be nice if we could concentrate on the message, not the messenger, people” seemed to be for ED, but Solkta was first cab off the rank, close my followed by James in having a crack at the messenger, therefore setting the tone.

                A tone not too far removed from bullying.

                I agree, attack the message not the messenger but In this case I reckon your target is incorrect.

                Having said all that, it can’t be easy moderating and navigating your own biases, conscious or not.

                Insert smiley peace face here.

                • Cheers, gsays. I wasn’t too concerned with the original comment, which made a reasonable point about people on the internet running interference for the Russian mafia state. Though it could have been done without personalising it.

                  The second comment was quite literally offering readers a binary choice; one person or another.

                  However, my ‘why can’t we all get along’ comment wasn’t aimed at Ed specifically. I’ve been offline for a few days and on on reading the comment stream* tonight I noticed how many were personally directed. It’s really not that hard to write “your argument is poor”, or “your conclusion isn’t justified on the facts” rather than “you’re an idiot”. I’m even trying to do that myself.

                  *Authors can see comments in the order they arrive in list form. Problem is, that like Benjamin Button, it starts from the present and goes backwards, which makes following the arguments rather challenging 😉

      • Morrissey 3.1.2

        You don’t know anything about Ukraine and Russia. Why are you commenting?

        • Tuppence Shrewsbury

          This from the rich vein of russophilic knowledge that is Morriski

        • Ed

          The wilful and bullish ignorance of many on such topics is stunning.
          I don’t they even know who Greenwald is – yet they change he on relentlessly.
          Foolish to put it mildly.

          • Tuppence Shrewsbury

            pretentious wanker. As if only you possess the knowledge of the world.

            • Ed

              I quoted Greenwald.
              You pretended you knew more than him.
              Thus I can conclude you are either wilfully ignorant or deliberately trolling.
              In either case, conversing with you about the Ukranian war isn’t going to be very enlightening.

              • Tuppence Shrewsbury

                Hiding behind quotes to advance your agenda and justify your immoral behaviour doesnt make you right and me wrong. It demonstrates the paucity of intellectual ability that you are able to muster. It’s shilling of the worst kind.

                You don’t even make an argument. You post a link and make a statement that could be the by line of the article you’ve linked too. It’s intellectual dishonesty masquerading as an opinion.

            • Morrissey

              It’s not that Ed knows so much more than everyone else; the problem is that people like you know so little about anything. Ed is correct to point out your willful and bullish ignorance.

              • Tuppence Shrewsbury

                Morriski, where to start. Ignorance is taking what others say and regurgitating it as fact without adding any argument beyond that someone said it and published and Therefore it must be true. Amen, praise allah.

                Which is what you and Ed do…….

                • Morrissey


                  As I said, you know nothing. Your arrogant style doesn’t make up for your ignorance.

                  • Tuppence Shrewsbury

                    Another ordinary comment from an ordinary person

                  • greywarshark

                    Morrissey et al
                    Quite good if you can sort out in your mind who are the trolls and concentrate your time and thought on the others. We need thinking people to help sort any future we might have. The trolls are taking useful input time away from important stuff from our brainboxes here.

                    Or are you just pussy cats? Get a piece of newspaper and tie a length of string and drag it along and they can’t resist chasing it. Or have a dog and walk to the park and throw balls or a stick and it will keep it up for hours. So good for you to get fresh air and some exercise.

        • Tuppence Shrewsbury

          little portrait of you Morriski


    • McFlock 3.2

      next the Ukraine will be viciously attacking Russian shells with their ships…

  4. Ed 4

    Dreadful news.

    ‘Rents soar 50pc in some parts of New Zealand.
    Since 2013, rents have risen 25 per cent in Auckland, 33 per cent in Wellington and 32 per cent in Waikato.
    But some of the fastest rises happened in the regions – rents were up 45 per cent in Otago and 48 per cent in Bay of Plenty.’

    New Zealand is no longer a country that looks after its citizens.
    It is a neoliberal vassal State.
    The traitors who sold this country , reducing it to such a dire state,should be tried and sentenced.
    Foreign millionaires and billionaires should have their properties appropriated.
    This was the crime of the century.

    • BM 4.1

      Going to get a lot worse.

      Fewer rentals, greater costs and requirements = higher prices.

      I’d hate to be renting these days.

      • James 4.1.1

        Yep. Labour’s changes are going to make a poor situation worse.

        • BM

          The left seems to be deluded that landlords getting out of the rental market is a great thing.

          Free’s up houses for first home buyers, problem is that you lose around 2 rental spots for every house that becomes owner-occupied.

          Those people still need somewhere to live, which puts more pressure on remaining rental stock, which pushes up prices.

          • solkta

            “you lose around 2 rental spots”

            Except you don’t because your flawed argument includes statistics that include old people who are now just a couple or single who paid there houses off years ago. The figures you need to compare are bottom end recent first home buyers and renters.

            • BM

              I read an interesting comment on another board.

              Many first home buyers aren’t even renting when they buy their first home, they’d gone back to living with Mum and Dad so they could save for the deposit, they’re not even in the rental market.

              So for many ex-rentals, it’s the whole house lot that has to find a new place to live within a market of constantly diminishing rentals.

          • AB

            The ‘left’s’ primary aim is not to get landlords out of the rental market, nor does it imagine that such a thing increases housing supply in any way.

            The objective is to lower the demand for houses as investment vehicles. In the long run, the expectation is that this puts brakes on the price inflation caused by the sort of casino economics we have seen in housing. Landlords exiting the rental market is merely a sign that such a policy might be working, it is not the original intention at all.

            Nor does anybody on the left believe that this is the only thing that needs doing. Houses also need to be built – supply needs to be increased and demand growth suppressed simultaneously.

        • Sabine

          nope, what is driving rental prices in rural areas especially high Tourist areas is Air BnB.

          Cashed up people – that have the money to buy up property – and then rent it for a huge amount to those on holiday or short weekends.

          I live now in Rotorua, and this is what happened, and is happening.

          its happening in Mangakino, where the local population can’t rent anymore, can’t buy anymore, cause some out of towners buy the properties at inflated prices, and keep them empty all year round to rent them at several hundred dollars more per week on Air Bnb then they ever could ask for a standard rental.

          This is happening in Taupo, Taumaranui, Whakatane, Gisborne, Papamoa (known issue there) and so on and so on.

          I know you would rather blame Labour, and the only blame so far that I lay at their feet is that they have yet to discover the power of levying taxes on these businesses. And hopefully they will grow the spine and guts to start levying these taxes on people that have no issue making money of the misery they create.

          But that is the issue, we have an surplus of properties that are kept empty, rented for about three month to tourists, internal or external, and nothing is being build to fix the gab, and what is being build is not coming on fast enough.

          Its ok to be partisan, its not ok to pretend that shit don’t stink. This shit stinks.

          What we need in this country is a complete breakdown of houses that sit empty all year long, for tax purposes as a write off against income, or sits partially empty as an Air bnb, untaxed income etc. and tax it.

          • Gosman

            If the property is not used for AirBnB then what will the tourists do for accommodation?

            • McFlock

              A tent.

            • Sabine

              Hotels. Regulated, taxed, with paid staff, and such.
              Camping grounds. Regulated, taxed, with paid staff and such.
              Freedom Camping. Could be a little more regulated, especially lack of public facilities.

              You have heard of Hotels, Motels, Camping grounds and Freedom Camping?

          • patricia bremner

            Rental shortages were so pronounced in times past firms built or bought properties for their workers… even built whole villages and towns.
            Many positions had a house as part of the stipend.
            When we were young renters in 1965 to 1973 rentals were like hens’ teeth.
            So this is part of a cycle. Building will increase and so will rentals.

            It won’t be instant but it will be exponential.

        • Draco T Bastard

          You do understand that you’re describing the failure of the market right? And all because of the bludgers desire to get ever more from the poor.

      • Muttonbird 4.1.2

        Once again beyond anecdotal evidence there is limited study and information on why there are apparently fewer rentals.

        You say it’s owners selling their older stock which they feel is going to be too costly to bring up to compliance (or at least that’s what I think you are saying).

        Shifting old stock to larger operators is a good thing because they’ll be able to improve them unlike the so-called mum&dad investor whose prime objective is to spend as little as possible on their portfolio.

        The are many other factors contributing to increased rents and a supposed lack of rental stock are among others:

        High immigration, particularly students coming in the back door, and low skilled workers. Slow infrastructure development required for expansion of housing areas. Lack of Airbnb regulation. High house prices and tight lending restrictions forcing people to rent longer.

        It’s a world of pain the John Key government left us.

        • BM

          Shifting old stock to larger operators is a good thing because they’ll be able to improve them unlike the so-called mum&dad investor whose prime objective is to spend as little as possible on their portfolio.

          Larger operators will expect a larger return.

          I remember red logix discussing this a while back, with larger operators, you’ll get a better quality of rental but it will come at a far greater cost.

          High immigration, particularly students coming in the back door, and low skilled workers. Slow infrastructure development required for expansion of housing areas. Lack of Airbnb regulation. High house prices and tight lending restrictions forcing people to rent longer.

          If you look at the immigration stats it was comparable to the Helen Clark era, what blew it out was the unexpectedly high numbers of Kiwis returning from Australia, what do you do, tell those New Zealanders to stay in Oz?

          The only low skilled workers coming into NZ were from the islands, to do jobs New Zealanders don’t want to do.
          Did you know that Jones tree planting plan will probably need to import workers because there’s no one available to or willing to plant trees.

          • OnceWasTim

            I see you’ve learned you lines well …. polly wanna cracker? I’ve a little cracked pepper pate you can have with it.
            Having said that @ BM, not many seem to see the hypocrisy. That is the expectation that we should be able to swan around all over the planet (such as low-skilled Koiwois taking a Jetstar across the ditch to earn higher wages, or professionals taking to mother Britain or most other 1st World destinations where currency values are greater – the fast track to paying off the student loan) on the left hand, whilst on the right hand, denying anybody else (usually from the developing countries Royal WE once colonised) the right to the same, or even holding similar ambition. Would they be those nasty ‘economic migrants’ do you think that the like of the neanderthal Dutton tries his best to label ?

            What’s worse is that our immigration and other public service ‘officials’ will sometimes leave NZ on a NZ passport and arrive in Old Blighty on a British passport (in order to speed all that inconvenient fluff doncha know).
            Of course many of those ‘officials’ have been recruited and are earning the bigbucks because (not unlike most other corporates), we have to pay them way beyond their level of competence because it’s a global market ….. usually a market of complete wankers as (is it?) Nissan has just had “robust learning going forward”
            Rhubarb rhubarb

            • OnceWasTim

              Edit (due to phat fingers hitting the Control Key alongside some other key sending it all titis upis)
              I wanted to add that Divine Right to return home on the next Jetstar if and when the going gets a bit too tuff (or when the Blighty visa they’ve deigned to give us is due to expire)

              Gawd strewth Nu Zull has made a complete pig’s ear of ummigration policy – especially over the past decade – but apparently its ‘best practice’

      • millsy 4.1.3

        Landlord greed. Nothing else. Doesn’t help that National purged the HNZ wait list and made it harder to get a state house. Landlords have used their tenants as ATM machines for too long in this country.

        • BM

          It used to be anyone with an income of 75-80k or less could go on the list for a housing corp home.

          Someone making 80k doesn’t need a rental which is heavily subsidized by the taxpayers of NZ.

          • Grant

            “It used to be anyone with an income of 75-80k or less could go on the list for a housing corp home.”

            Citation required

      • Tamati Tautuhi 4.1.4

        The [Chinese] own most of our houses that the reason IMHO.

        [Casual racism edited out. No more, please. TRP]

    • SaveNZ 4.2

      Rents are high because high levels of immigration is making more houses owner occupied or part occupied which is reducing supply. At the same time there are a lot more expensive measures for landlords, a very poorly regulated property manager industry (in fact no regulation) and more tenants who are in poverty and can’t afford to pay the rent and in general a very negative attitude to landlords by government that seem to be adding ‘magical thinking’ to what is going to happen. Adding to the idea that the new builds are still able to be bought without any restrictions by anybody in the world, makes a mockery of the idea that all this construction is going to save the day because the demand has not been stopped in any way for the new supply! Crazy!

      If the private sector is not going to be a landlord and the state is not going to be a landlord then there are not going to be enough houses! (In real terms there is inadequate provision from the state for the amount of people now in poverty in our low wage economy or in insecure work and could lose their job tomorrow). Even Santa got sacked the other day! How can they afford market rents?

      So it ain’t looking good with all this ‘magical thinking’ and ‘assumptions’ that the government and woke lefties are making that these rentals will somehow appear, the wages will somehow be increased in line with the cost of new construction and growing levels of fixed costs like power, petrol and water, to rent the new builds and somehow hundreds of thousands of working and non working poor are somehow going to make $180k in wages and have a secure job to afford Kiwibuild or these houses coming up??

      The areas like Hawkes bay are just showing the shift of people out of Auckland into places like Hawkes Bay as owner occupied because they can’t afford Auckland as more people from overseas come into Auckland and Wellington to work or study here.

      As well I seem to remember that Hawkes Bay was one of those areas that apparently had a huge amount of illegal workers that the immigration department were apparently told not to bother doing anything about. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12111595

      Don’t forget the human trafficking as well!

      P>S> with the botched census and the inability of our government to control our borders and understand how. many people are in NZ at any time.

      Example asked someone who is Chinese/NZ how they managed to come in and out of NZ without paying their student loan. They said, easy, they have multiple passports, they have a Chinese one, A NZ one and another one with their married name.

      So it sounds like the government has no idea or can monitor who is in NZ and even gauge residency and if someone is in or out of the country, so has little clue how many houses we need or residents we have here.

      Also to make matters worse, we have large amounts of people ‘coming and going’ because our permanent residency only takes a few years and after that, you can come and go freely. This means supply of housing, is going to be ‘boom’ & ‘bust’ because in some years there are going to be a lot of people needing housing, then poof, they can all leave the country leaving a lot of houses and apartments empty.

      Laissez faire housing doesn’t work just like Laissez faire economics.

      • SaveNZ 4.2.1

        P>S> Construction does not keep people staying in NZ. Quality of life, quality jobs and the quality of opportunities does.

        So making everyone and everything in NZ about construction and agriculture and clipping tickets on neoliberalism does not provide quality of life that is needed across the board to retain highly skilled working people. In fact, in many ways the emphasis on the above and the churn out of bad lawyers, engineers and chefs with NZ qualifications just makes other people’s lives a misery because you can have gleaming construction, lots of litigation, poor food getting worse, and a horrible society. No wonder people with money coming to NZ love the high country stations, so they don’t have to deal with the riff raft or how the rest of the country is going.

        Remember the days before neoliberalism, when we had BA and arts students. Fuck before we had our narrow miserable focus on education we even had specialist libraries, music and artists… society needs to be made of of ‘quality’ of life and diversity of skills.

        Having bigots, morons (left and right wingers) and very narrow people devoid of culture, critical thinking and desperate for a $, is not really the way to keep people in NZ or drive the economy which everyone know that creativity is essential for the future. Obviously in NZ our government and tertiary Chancellors missed that memo from business, because they have a very weird ways they are going about with future skills of the country being of a very narrow focus.

        Selling poor quality degrees and luring in overseas workers ain’t a very long term strategy for NZ and the wheels are already falling off.

        nor is having people working or studying here so that some third party can profit from it and send the eventual bill and social problems from the Ponzi onto the next generation…

        I’m not against offering overseas students a NZ education here, but lets be honest about it, and have the quality of life and education here the reason they come, not the residency scams. And work out, how having so many new people into NZ whether tourist, students, or resident is going to effect housing, congestion and pollution and SOLVE that FAIRLY before they open the floodgates .

        Our economy is all about people profiting and clipping the ticket off others, also setting off the Ponzi happening now of new construction.

        The way NZ is structured means is NZ going to be able to retain high skills in this country, because skilled people don’t want to work for long hours, for low wages and it doesn’t matter whether you are a migrant or a Kiwi born here.

        So we will be left with the crap workers and those satellite families not working in NZ unless the government, thinks about their strategy and the messages they are sending and what is going to happen to our groaning health and welfare system when everyone they get in or train keeps leaving after a few years and many gaining residency stop working or have many family members who don’t work or work very little.

        • gsays

          I don’t disagree with most of what you are saying but the answer ain’t kick the migrants.

          I am a chef, my wages are under downward pressure partially because of migrants.

          The answer is the same, change the environment that landlords and hospo employers operate.
          I.E. remove the tax benefits that landlords receive.
          Also make my wages akin to at least the living wage once certain boxes are ticked.

          Good luck though, waiting for pollies (landlords) legislating themselves out of passive income.

    • Draco T Bastard 4.3

      NZ has been sold into serfdom at the behest of the capitalists.

    • gsays 4.4

      I find it highly amusing the knowledge, concern and agitation by our resident tories now we have a regime seeking to fix the mess their party created.

      Are all tories born under the star sign hypocrisy?

  5. Ed 5

    Martin Bradbury nails it.

    “The mad cult worship of consumerism that is Black Friday on a warming planet is a cultural tumour. The White house dropping a major new report showing the full impact climate change will cause on Black Friday is heavy with symbolism…

    ‘A Grave Climate Warning, Buried on Black Friday
    On Friday, the busiest shopping day of the year, the federal government published a massive and dire new report on climate change. The report warns, repeatedly and directly, that climate change could soon imperil the American way of life, transforming every region of the country, imposing frustrating costs on the economy, and harming the health of virtually every citizen.’ “



    Meanwhile fools reading the Herald worry about the All Blacks…..

    • Cinny 5.1

      Morning Ed,

      Brazil is now facing the same problem as the USA.

      Bolsonaro the idiot, says that climate change is just a marxist plot.

      • Ed 5.1.1

        Yes, we have two dangerous leaders in the U.S and Brazil.
        Both countries are pivotal to us mitigating climate change below a catastrophic level.
        Another major warning of the imminent severe impacts of climate change comes out on the day the capitalist world binges on an orgy of consumerism.
        It’s not looking hopeful, yet we must try to do our best.

      • Ed 5.1.2

        Bolsonaro sounds like some of the trolls on this site.
        Sadly he has power.
        Over the largest rainforest in the world.

      • Antoine 5.1.3

        > Bolsonaro the idiot, says that climate change is just a marxist plot.

        His deputy (General Mourao) does however admit that it exists – and I suspect Bolsonaro might say the same privately.



      • Muttonbird 5.1.4

        That’s James’ hero you are taking about.

      • Gosman 5.1.5

        This is the problem when you tie the issue of tackling climate change with attacks on Capitalism. It is called blowback. You can get upset and jump up and down and cry that it is all unfair or you can maybe look at how you frame the climate change debate.

        • DJ Ward

          Climate change needs to be solution driven. Not a destroy things movement. A solution that recognises pollution and results in less pollution without lowering standards of living, or increases profitability will be accepted.

          Ideas like prohibition will be rejected.

          Ideas like CO2 economies. You remove 400 units but output 500 units will be rejected if you have 1000 jobs but will have no jobs with your solution.

          • mauī

            So no real solution at all.. just continue down the same road we have been heading.

            Decades ago we produced products of much better quality, used a lot less resources, put less strain on the environment, and gave us full employment. Ask your elders.

            • Gosman

              I suggest you have zero evidence for that claim. Decades ago NZ manufactured items were generally of mixed quality. Some were good. Many were not great.

              • mauī

                Yes zero evidence.. What do you think the average product life is for a product from the Warehouse?

                Compared to the average product life for a product bought from a store in the 1970s?

                • Gosman

                  I have no idea of the average product life of an item bought from the Warehouse is nor of what they were in NZ in the 1970’s and I strongly suspect neither do you. You are most likely guilty of the “Golden Age Fallacy”.

                  • mauī

                    You have no idea? None at all?

                    But up above you seem to have a good idea of the quality of old New Zealand made items??

                    • Gosman

                      Knowing that NZ manufactured products were of variable quality in the 1980’s and before is different to knowing what the average product life is and was of products both now and in the 1970’s. One requires actual data to compare. The other just needs some basic knowledge of the time or reading of information about the era in question.

                    • gsays

                      Funny, we require data when our position is untenable.

                      I own an old school food processor.
                      Made in Aotearoa, got it from an opportunity shop.

                      It will outlast any mid range processor you want to pick up from Harvey Normans today.

                      Add shoes and teles to the list as local made is better built than modern imported stuff.
                      You know, before planned obsolescence was a thing.

                    • Gosman

                      Again gsays anecdotal evidence is not great at determining if something is actually true or not.

                  • Tricledrown

                    Bullshit Gossipboy you can still find many items NZ made in perfect working order in 2nd hand shops garage sales etc. There were tough consumer laws back then washing machine had to last 10 years companies had to keep spare parts for much longer. Even clothing had to be well made. Now we have a disposable society with some items barely functional that maybe lucky if they last one use.

                    • Gosman

                      Fisher and Peykel was making washing machine in Nz until quite recently. Are you claiming the ones they made here are superior to the ones they make offshore now?

                    • RedLogix

                      Two trends seem to be happening at the same time; in some ways materials and technology improvements mean that new appliances are better. But at the same time the drive to reduce costs has a negative impact. Take a look inside of them and it’s all bits of flimsy plastic wherever the designers think they can get away with it (or at least the duration of the warranty.)

                      In some respects they’re better, in others I think they’re worse. Certainly I recall older appliances being generally good to run for 20 years or more. These days that would be exceptional.

                    • Tricledrown

                      Yes gossipboy they are inferior because
                      They are competing with cheaper products fisher & paykel are 100% Chinese owned by Haia.

              • Tamati Tautuhi


            • DJ Ward

              Come up with ideas with viable solutions.

              I can suggest a few since you can’t or won’t.

              -Put solar panels on cow shed roofs to charge electric 4 wheelers.
              -Use city waste water for aiding pumping nutrient carrying processed human waste onto commercial forests. Rather than ocean dumping.
              -Requiring large forestry operators to have diversity of species.
              -Rights to have commercial new Native tree forests with garuanteed right of harvest.
              -Open ocean floating reefs, for mussels etc.

              I could go on. Any problems you don’t have ideas for specifically?

              • mauī

                Looks like all of those would increase emissions…. I thought we were trying to reduce.

                • Gosman

                  Why would those increase emissions?

                • DJ Ward

                  EV 4 Wheelers don’t use petrol and solar is a renewable.

                  Using waste water etc reduces pollution going into the sea, helps trees absorb more carbon.

                  Diversity of species, self explanatory.

                  Right to cut down, enables investment in diversity.

                  Floating reefs, create habitat for biodiversity, absorbs CO2 if seaweed grows on it, supplies protein solutions substituting reduced land made protein.

                  • mauī

                    How much extra fossil fuel are you going to use making all these new EV’s and same goes for the solar panels?

                    How much energy is required to make all the new infrastructure required for your new e-trucking wastewater industry?

                    How much energy will it require to administer your forest diversity thing?

                    New forests are pointless if your end goal is to cut them down at some point in the future.

                    Again, floating reefs are going to take an awful lot of energy to build and then the upkeep/harvest time requires more.

                    • DJ Ward

                      The EV are being made now as ICE, net effect 0.

                      I would pipe it using windmills, possibly waste heat Stirling added to a factory polluting.

                      The forest was going to planted anyway, but since natives take longer = less energy.

                      Wood can replace plastics in furniture products, etc. The land is not conservation estate. It is required to pay its way.

                      The energy can be from renewables, and recyclables that build the floating reefs. Properly planed one could drive them into a bay for easy harvesting using their inbuilt sail and solar powered motor, GPS guided remote system.


                    • mauī

                      I think you’ve mostly avoided answering my questions.

                    • RedLogix

                      How much extra fossil fuel are you going to use making all these new EV’s and same goes for the solar panels?

                      You do it on a life-cycle replacement basis, when the old ICE machines reach end of commercial life, you transition to the new EV tech.

            • joe90


              Ask your elders.

              Locally made after-market car bits, tyres, batteries, machinery, home ware, clothes, shoes, home appliances and electrical goods, were all over priced, poorly made shit.

              Locally assembled cars were shit, too, and duties and protectionist tariffs made damn sure imported goods were priced well beyond all but the wealthy end of town.

              And as for the strain on the environment, in my youth both the Waikato and Whanganui* were virtually open sewers blighted by untreated discharges, septic tanks ruled, the Mangere treatment plant was a thing that most provincial centres aspired to and responsible farm effluent management was yet to come.

              Oh, and significant rainfall ensured that Auckland harbours reeked, too.

              And that aside, the place was a censorious, racist, sexist, shithole inhabited by way too many moralising, intolerant bigots, too.

              btw, our current unemployment rate is nearing the late seventies rate

              *In the early eighties locals pelted traveling surfers with human turds found bobbing in the lineup.

                • Andre

                  From a global warming perspective, the greenhouse gas emissions from that old technology is way worse than what even a mediocre modern internal combustion engine would produce to do the same work. It’d be way further worse again if that old tech was ruminant rather than monogastric.

                  • greywarshark

                    The making of a machine takes a lot of energy and results in emissions. If you can keep an older, not so theoretically efficient, machine going it has probably amortised its greenhouse emission costs over its years of life to now emitting quite small amounts.

                    • Andre

                      That really depends on the relative efficiency of the new and old machines. So for instance, my cars are a 2001 nanna’s shopping trolley Daihatsu Sirion (17km/l) and a 1994 Landrover Defender (10 km/l). Upgrading those to something new that does the some jobs for me would probably only improve fuel efficiency maybe 15%, so it would be decades before the reduction in emission from use offset the emissions from manufacturing new replacement vehicles.

                      On the other hand, I’ve just bought a new fridge that claims to use 320 kWhr/per year, while my old fridge was probably up around 700. If we make an assumption that all that reduced electricity use goes to reduce fossil fuel burn at Huntly, then the emissions payback time is only a year or two.

                      Edit: I also think you missed the point of my comment above – which is that live animals emit a lot of greenhouse gases. From a global warming perspective, one cow in a paddock for a year is roughly equivalent to a car driving 12000 km in a year. A horse in a paddock for a year – roughly equivalent to a car doing 4000 km in a year

                  • Pat

                    there is nothing to stop us being a whole lot smarter about it….take any product and say the 3 most efficient are the standard. nothing else may be sold in our market….add in a requirement for longevity/repairability. If someone comes up with a better product the worst one drops off the list. Continuous improvement.

              • gsays

                Got to disagree about poorly made home appliances.
                As I say above (below?), I am using an old Aotearoa food processor.

                TBF, I got it from an op-shop so can’t speak for the relative price, but at least the cost back then was employing kiwi folk who would be on a better wicket than today’s workers.

              • Pat

                “Locally made after-market car bits, tyres, batteries, machinery, home ware, clothes, shoes, home appliances and electrical goods, were all over priced, poorly made shit.”

                They were no worse quality wise (in the main) than those produced offshore…and crucially the appliances were repairable.

                “Locally assembled cars were shit, too, and duties and protectionist tariffs made damn sure imported goods were priced well beyond all but the wealthy end of town.”

                Again ,they were no worse than UK, Italian or US assembled, granted the German and Japanese assembled were superior.

                “And as for the strain on the environment, in my youth both the Waikato and Whanganui* were virtually open sewers blighted by untreated discharges, septic tanks ruled, the Mangere treatment plant was a thing that most provincial centres aspired to and responsible farm effluent management was yet to come.”

                There were indeed areas of pollution but not to the degree or in the remote locations we see now….the cause was ignorance and a belief that we were too few to make a complete fuck up…obviously we were wrong.

                When comparing 40 years ago with today it would be wise to consider the fact that systems then would have progressed anyway, even without the radical reforms of the eighties….and maybe without many of the downsides.

                The scandanavians managed it

                • greywarshark

                  Thanks Pat
                  That is a practical and fair comparison – mid 1900s to our advanced higher standards now. /sarc

                  • Pat

                    apples with apples….I recall working on a lot of imported crap back in the day, indeed in many instances locally made was better

              • McFlock

                Dunedin water supply sucked.

                Other than that, one fridge from those days only now needs a new seal, and I accidentally stabbed the cooling line of the other deicing with a knife when I was young and dumb.

              • weston

                lol im enjoying visualising surfers pelting foreign surfers with human turds found bobbing in the lineup they were prob their own so they didnt mind handling them and i imagine it was a hellovalotof fun !!
                Sure there was plenty that couldve been improved on and we would have improved those things too but instead we jumped on the free market bandwaggon and look where weve ended up ;totally dependent on junk imported from other countries especially china .More and more we shop in so called “Mega “stores soulless vast cavernish spaces reeking of chemicals where soon we will be served by robots who will click our cards deduct funds and assess us for potential or actual anti social tendencies as is already happening apparently in some parts of the world .
                The way i see it the shithole you speak of is only just beginning !!

      • Tricledrown 5.1.6

        He is on the oil Co’s payroll.

    • James 5.2

      “Meanwhile fools reading the Herald worry about the All Blacks…..“

      Meanwhile Ed forgets people have wide and varied interests.

  6. Incognito 6

    What a coincidence, we were talking about this on OM two days ago:


    • WeTheBleeple 6.1

      The microbes involved in rain formation via ice nucleation were genetically modified to not nucleate ice, and then released in California to ‘save the strawberries.’ California is now experiencing record drought but connecting the dots is frowned upon.

      “The whole of the available data suggests that it is not unlikely that there are conditions under which there are sufficient numbers of ice nucleation-active bacteria to incite the processes that lead to rainfall.”


      “These bacteria… sub-units align in a manner that permits water molecules to bind in a pattern that favors the formation of ice embryos for subsequent crystal growth.” (This is illustrated in the Feb. 2012 issue of Microbe magazine).

      Ice hastens the process of micro-droplets of water aggregating into larger droplets that lead to rain.

      Trees house the bacteria, thermals lift them into the atmosphere, conditions and species composition determine expression and copy number of ice-nucleation proteins, rain is formed, microbes return to earth.

      As we increase the critical mass of trees we increase our ability to intercept rain, but also, via the processes of evapotranspiration and microbial export, to produce it.

      As both the water and microbes make their way to the atmosphere, the big question is then, where will it rain?

      The obvious answer is where the wind takes the water and microbes. Many other variables, however, will need to be taken into account: wind speed; concentrations of water, inorganic particulates, organic particulates, species composition and concentrations of microbes; air temperature; geography, and more.

      On a continent like China, prevailing winds towards deserts outline areas where afforestation might bring rain to distant (but targeted) lands.

      This ‘absurd fantasy’ to manipulate weather as scientists are calling it: it seems more PR than practical.

      Trees are the bees knees.

      • greywarshark 6.1.1

        Jolly interesting. I have always thought that making rain would be so helpful? Trouble is anything we devise gets to have a military checkout before it can be used for the good of da people; and then we fight over it and it all goes to mush.

      • Gabby 6.1.2

        It rained in the Chilean desert and killed all the microbes bleepy.

        • WeTheBleeple

          Killed 8/12 species. That is truly a desert in biological terms as well as being so extreme. With no rain for 500 years you’d expect rain to cause havoc on the system.

          Microbes are bio-engineers. It’d be interesting to check the diversity over time should rainfall continue. I predict it goes up exponentially with the new arrivals in the rain.

          Deserts can be turned back. China is doing this, there are also examples on small scale in Australia, Jordan, USA’s dust bowl and more.

          Mankind is a desert making species. But we don’t have to remain so ignorant.

      • Graeme 6.1.3

        In my cadet days with the old Forest Service, the urban (or should that be arboreal) legend was that dairy farming in the Galetea basin was only viable once Kaingaroa got reasonably established, increasing the rainfall around Galatea.

        • greywarshark

          In the old days with our forests we had high lookouts for fire didn’t we? How many do you know, where they common? Surely we need to have those now. Fire is so destructive and we are growing for the next half century, can’t afford to relax with the weather getting chancier.

          What fire breaks do we need now, do you think? Is it better to fill them with sappy green stuff and not let grass grow and dry out?

    • One Two 6.2

      The question is…

      Which nations/states/military/private entities have already been developing/testing in the weather modification arena?

      And what impact is it having…

    • gsays 6.3

      While it is tenuously related, a colleague of mine (tinfoil hats on), reckons Paradise, the US town recently burnt to a crisp, was microwaved.

      Part of the support for his argument is that it was so hot to melt alloy rims of cars, and yet there are trees near them seemingly untouched…..

      • weston 6.3.1

        This particular CT has been arround since last years cal wildfires at least gsays Ithink its a kinda coppy cat CT stemming from dr judy woods’s theorys related to the 9 11 event where she put up a very detailed case for the use of a secret energy weapon capable of zapping some things but not others for example serriously degrading vehicles but not paper .Its useful to know in deciding things for yourself the relative melting points of different metals …for starters

        • gsays

          hey weston, i do recall my mate mentioning the wildfires from last year.
          i had a look at some footage and had a vibe that those trees looked remarkably untouched.

          not strong enough to stand on a street corner and proclaim we are being lied to, but a seed has been planted. how mutated that seed is however…

          you elude to melting points, aluminium melts at 660 degrees C, google says wood will combust at 572degrees F (300degrees C).

          jeez mate, what a rabbit hole you have lead me to in regards dr. judy white,,,.
          i was going to have an early night but that has gone out the window.

      • McFlock 6.3.2

        Assuming the apparently untouched trees weren’t a perspective effect of cameras with a long depth of focus, weird things happen in chaotic situations. Maybe the wind changed direction, or they were a different and more resilient type of tree, or maybe they weren’t as dry as other threes because they’d tapped into a leaky sewer line.

        Eliminate the probable before grasping onto the highly improbable.

  7. Bearded Git 7

    This is what we need to guard against in NZ. Rich pricks in choppers screwing up world heritage areas for their own gratification.


    • SaveNZ 7.1

      More slide, down the slippery slope in every way imaginable. From allowing richer folks access to pristine places that poorer folks who live there and actually pay for the conservation don’t have. As is the amount of truely natural and unmodified areas shrinking daily around the world, likewise the flora and fauna in it. To allowing the use of a public conservation area for private profit.

    • greywarshark 7.2

      Also going to Antarctica on any transport. The rich don’t know what to do with themselves eventually, been there, done that, nothing is exciting and has to be saved up for. Looked at everything in the world as if we were all part of a supermarket. Hey perhaps we are!

  8. Cinny 8

    Couple of weeks ago the bike track was opened at our local school, it included around 50 bikes for the kids to wizz around on. The track is part of the ‘bikes in schools’ project.


    Every day kids are flat out using those bikes and the bike track. They love it.

    Kids go there after school with their own bikes. It’s a huge success.

    So last night when I heard Julie-Anne Genters news, I was like YES!

    Awesome, it’s making a difference for the kids in our town, absolutely bikes will benefit other kids and other schools.


  9. DJ Ward 9

    News from The Feminist Republic of NZ.

    The government has added another blatant sexist law to its agenda.


    13C Employee may raise pay equity claim
    An employee of an employer, or a group of employees who perform the same, or substantially similar, work for an employer, may raise a pay equity claim if that employee or group of employees considers that the claim is arguable.
    A pay equity claim is arguable if—
    the claim relates to work that is predominantly performed by female employees; and
    it is arguable that the work is currently undervalued or has historically been undervalued.


    This is blatantly in contempt of the bill of rights.
    The Atourney General has not been informed as is the legal obligation. Because they are so sexually bigoted they fail to see they are bigots.
    Men have groups with traditional jobs with the same issue, pointed out in a submission you can read at Menz, at “another sexist law on the way”

    The law is presented by Mr Galloway and the Ministry for Women.

    Simon has handed in his man card ages ago so silence from national.

    The last part “is arguable” is a terrifying concept as it sets no limit of proof. If you have an argument however erroneous you win.

    There is no excuse for this sexual bigotry in law.

    • Cinny 9.1

      Are you saying that gender pay equality is sexual bigotry?

      • DJ Ward 9.1.1

        No obviously.

        If 9 out of 10 cases happen to be for females but the male case is excluded because of gender excluding law then it’s sexual bigotry.

        The law can still be passed and attempt to address the pay gap without being sexually bigoted in the process.

        Feminism is not about the exclusion of men. It’s about being treated equally. This is not feminism, it’s bigotry.

        Desires for pay equality is a seperate issue, and is a seperate debate. It has many issues not related to traditional roles, while it’s also obviously a factor.

        The right to examine traditional roles is not gender exclusive, just something happening to females, or something females only should have a legal framework for.

        • Molly

          When a bias or discrimination is historical or systematic, there often requires a regulatory or form of positive discrimination necessary to address it.

          It has been recognised that work primarily performed by women employees is often been underpaid consistently as opposed to similar work performed by males in other industries.

          That is why the legislation is drafted – to bring parity to identified groups. This does not impact on men’s pay – because it is already there.

          What employment/industry were you thinking of where men have consistently been underpaid in contrast to women, where a more convoluted form of this legislation would need to be enacted?

          • DJ Ward

            Wow you must have blinkers on.

            2(a) Any group covered by the Human Rights Act.

            Men have many traditional roles in society that are dirty, and low paid, dangerous (far more than women), life expectancy reducing (far more than women), family isolating jobs, psycologicaly harmful, reduced wage training ending in unemployment etc etc. Just as women or another group like Maori might have a case for something.

            This is just women. Everybody else is meaningless.

            Pay is the focus because it’s one of the only things that feminists can think of complaining about. Even then it’s mostly propaganda. Everything else is biased agianst men.

            • Molly

              OK. I would describe myself as a feminist – in regards to the goal of women and men sharing equal consideration and rights. Acknowledging there is a disparity and making moves to address that disparity is a practical way of aligning current reality with that view.

              Are you saying that you believe that men and women are given equal consideration already? Or that they are not, but men have a hard time too? I’m unsure of your point in your comment.

              ” Everything else is biased agianst men.”
              Why is it considered bias against men to ask for equality?

              Men have many traditional roles in society that are dirty, and low paid, dangerous (far more than women), life expectancy reducing (far more than women), family isolating jobs, psycologicaly harmful, reduced wage training ending in unemployment etc etc.
              And quite rightly they have people working hard to ensure those aspects of their jobs are considered in conditions of work and remuneration. Helen Kelly was a high-profile advocate for these industry workers, both male and female.

              That fight can occur alongside the feminist movement, it is not one or the other.

              • DJ Ward

                This law fits the term positive discrimination.

                Equivalent to addressing a problem with descrimination.
                Examples, only allow women to be new Judges. Only allow female political candidates. They are both positive discrimination. They both address a real measurable resultant for women.

                They are both examples of discrimination.

                With this law.
                Both men and women work within a legal framework. Presently that framework does not descriminate. Employers like the crown may discriminate but the law used to address it does not. The present law is ignorant of the gender of the applicant.

                Helen Kelly may work for Bus Drivers, predominately male and be stuck using present law to fight for them.
                Helen Kelly may work for pre school teachers and get to use this new easier law, bypassing laws Bus Drivers are forced to use (because they are predominantly men)

                A feminist movement wouldn’t blindly write a law that excludes a gender.

                Imagine if the law said.
                2 (a) the claim relates to work that is predominantly performed by male employees; and

                That’s blatant bigotry. So is the proposed law.

                There would be hell to pay if someone proposed that. Women would be marching in the streets. They would call themselves feminists.

                I call bullshit on that.

                I have no problem with a new law. I think this one if it reduces legal costs and increases pay integrity would be good. My own opinion is it trends towards communism were everybody is paid the same. Or puts a compulsory value to a degree, ignoring what that degree is, or its economic productivity, or other ‘arguments’ that suit.

                • gsays

                  Mate, you lose what sympathy I had for your argument when you bring Helen Kelly’s name into it I. The manner you did.

                  • DJ Ward

                    I didn’t bring Helen Kelly’s name into it. That was Molly. I expressed the stupidity of what Helen Kelly faces in the future, for bus drivers, welders, linesmen, rubbish truck workers, scrap metal yard workers, truck drivers, tractor drivers, pilots, police officers, soldiers, prison guards, electricians, plumbers, apprentices, security guards, etc. All these workers are being legislatively discriminated against.

                    I showed how people, men and women, the comment I was responding to, can find themselves subject to the law.

                    Helen Kelly is not responsible if the ability for her to represent a male dominated industry is different than representing a female dominated industry.

                    Women in a male denominated industry become by association discriminated against

                    Sympathy is an excuse to a logical argument you can’t win.

                    I have no idea how you reached the conclusion I defamed her or whatever you think I did wrong.

                    I apologise to Helen Kelly for mentioning her name in this argument, no intention to misrepresent her was intended.

                    • Mate, Helen died two years ago. Now go away and think about what you’ve done.

                    • gsays

                      Yep, ok, I didnt read Molly’s contribution fully.
                      Rereading it i see, and agree that Helen Kelly was and advocate for male and female, and an advocate for non unionised workers. E.g. the security guard who was meld on his first night of work.

                      I still find your example using Helen Kelly’s name distasteful and inappropriate.

                    • Molly

                      Sorry, DJ Ward. Didn’t really mean to drop you in it. I thought you would have had some knowledge of the ongoing fights for workers rights in the not too distant past. It is apparent you did not. Many NZers have a lot of respect for the work and integrity that Helen Kelly showed, and are still grieving her early passing.

                      Genuine question: How would you address the systematic disparity between gender, or race or otherwise without utilising a positive discrimination method?

                    • lprent []

                      Many NZers have a lot of respect for the work and integrity that Helen Kelly showed, and are still grieving her early passing.

                      Sure do. She was doing a damn good and very smart job up until the time that she had to stop work. Reminds me that I need to dig out her early guest posts on this site.

            • greywarshark

              Oh tut tut DJW. Rub soothing hand over fevered brow.

  10. Kevin 10

    “A Young Nats event in Auckland is being investigated by police after a 17-year-old girl complained of inappropriate behaviour by a male attendee”.


    • ianmac 10.1

      Oops Kevin. Surely not. The Young Nats are all as pure as fresh snow. So different from those nasty Labour folk. And will there be endless publicity for this one? No. Inappropriate touching is much more acceptable when it is a past PM or a Young Nat.

      • Kevin 10.1.1

        Looking forward to ChrisT and BM getting stuck into National over this.

        • Puckish Rogue

          My personal thoughts are as follows:

          1. Auto name suppression for the survivor
          2. Name the guy
          3. If found guilty then sentence the guy to the max

          • Chris T

            “1. Auto name suppression for the survivor
            2. Name the guy”

            Neither or both till guilt is proven/dis-proven

        • Chris T

          If it is true I hope the alloeged perpetrator gets what is coming to them.

          Couple of things I would add though

          It doesn’t say he is a young Nat. In fact it calls him a man, and he got away with saying he is a wealthy doctor, so he is obviously too old

          It was at a private residence, not the event

          • Nick

            Police are investigating an incident following a Young Nationals event in central Auckland last week in which a teenage woman reported inappropriate touching and behaviour by a male Young Nats member.

            • Puckish Rogue

              Well you missed this bit out:

              ‘A man claiming to be a wealthy political donor allegedly approached the young woman at the bar and asked her and her friends to join him at his apartment nearby, the report says.

              There, the man allegedly grabbed the young woman’s face and tried to kiss her. When she tried to pull away from the man, he pulled her back by the wrists, the report says, before she fled the apartment block and hid in a fast food outlet’s toilet area.’

              So it happened at the apartment not the event itself, I know its a small thing but when the information is right there its not that hard to copy and paste the correct information

    • James 10.2

      Good to see National we’re right into it and now it’s with the police.

      Labour could learn a lot from this in regard to the right way to handle a situation like this.

      Hope that the police act quickly and lay charges if needed.

      Also – I believe the offender should be named if found guiltily.

      • cleangreen 10.2.1

        James = snow white = National party.

        I call bullshit on your deciption of your ‘snow white’ nationall party.

    • DJ Ward 10.3

      Complex issue. The attempting to kiss is not an offence, as a false belief of consent can exist. Once she rejected his advances and he physically acted against her for compliance he committed assualt. It’s not indecent assualt as holding hands is not indecent. A stretch would be to say he attempted to commit indecent assualt as well in that the intent was to kiss.

  11. Morrissey 11

    Rupert Murdoch’s gruesome gang of liars is still pushing the discredited
    fantasies of Yenta Hodge; now they’ve got Seumas Milne in their gunsights.


  12. greywarshark 12

    Interesting survey Ed has started 5 comments before 8 am? That got everybody awake. Like Alice’s Queen with six impossible things before breakfast.

  13. Morrissey 13

    When Jim Mora, Chris Trotter and Noelle McCarthy laugh at the suffering of Julian Assange, they’re merely following the lead of “liberals” like Eric Alterman

    Al Jazeera’s The Listening Post did a piece on Assange on Saturday night. It was “balanced” in the sense it featured two decent journalists and two weasels.

    We also saw brief clips of CNN and BBC (the egregious Evan Davis) interviewers pushing the ludicrous false rape charges in the face of Assange and his lawyer, long after those false charges had been dropped.

    Host RICHARD GIZBERT: Now he’s at the mercy of an Ecuadorian government that’s running out of patience, and he may be running out of time. …. Even Julian Assange’s supporters conceded that WikiLeaks’ practices can be contentious, such as exposing material without redaction… releasing Hillary Clinton’s emails has damaged WikiLeaks’ journalistic standing and infuriated anti-Trump voices in America. … Assange also has issues with his new landlord. The Ecuadorian President who granted him asylum, Rafael Correa, has been succeeded by Lenin Moreno, who wants better relations with Washington. The new government hasn’t evicted Assange, but his internet connection, his communications with the outside world, are now controlled by the embassy. With his health reportedly failing, and the lack of sunlight getting to him, Julian Assange cannot even go to a hospital for fear of being arrested. And Assange also has cause to feel aggrieved by the same news outlets that once feasted on the material that he handed to them on a plate. Not unlike his Ecuadorian hosts, many of those news organizations have turned against him…

    Grauniad columnist JAMES BALL: [smirking] There’s nothing like a cock-up to make the truth come to li-i-i-iight. If you are in the embassy of a country, you should probably try and be a good house guest. He’s also, on multiple times, acted against Ecuador’s diplomatic interests, uh, he picked a fight with Spain, which is sort of one of their key European allies. He interfered in the U.S. election, and so-o-o-o-o, in the end, they will find something to get him ou-u-u-u-ut. Or Assange’s patience will crack and he’ll try and make a break for it.

    The Nation reporter ERIC ALTERMAN: The left was very excited about WikiLeaks and excited about the fact that things that governments had traditionally kept secret were no longer going to be kept secret. It seemed to be part of this whole new wave of “nothing is secret any more in the age of the Internet. … It’s true that Julian Assange used to be a lot more popular before SOMEBODY undermined American democracy with the help of, uh, the Russians, and gave us this President who is destroying democracy in the United States and threatening the entire world. I don’t see Assange as a VICTIM any more, I see Assange as someone who helped to victimize American democracy. And if Julian Assange is being demonized for that, then count me among his demonizers. [smirks]

    La Repubblica reporter STEFANIA MAURIZI: They fear a dumbing effect. They realize that inside the U.S. intelligence community there are many people who have seen all sorts of abuses, they are terrified that there could be a hundred Chelsea Mannings, a thousand Edward Snowdens. They cannot kill Julian Assange, so all they can do is use legal cases against Julian Assange and WikiLeaks, which they have done. … Thanks to my Freedom of Information Act requests in Sweden it was possible to reveal the crucial role of the U.K. authorities in creating this legal and diplomatic quagmire, for example, advising the Swedish prosecutors to question Julian Assange only after his extradition to Sweden. They write: “Please do not think that the case is being dealt with as just another extradition request.” The press was running some stories like: “SWEDEN COULD DROPE CASE SAYS ASSANGE” and the U.K. authorities wrote to the Swedish prosecutors: “Don’t you dare get cold feet.”

    GLENN GREENWALD: If you go and challenge and threaten and undermine the world’s most powerful institutions, as WikiLeaks has done, they are going to impose on you retaliation. It was actually a 2008 U.S. Army intelligence report that described WikiLeaks as an “enemy of the state” and talked about different ways that they could destroy the organization and we can read about that document because ironically it got leaked to WikiLeaks which then published it on its own website. …. What we’ve never seen any evidence for is that there’s been any collaboration between WikiLeaks and the Russian government, even though for some reason now it’s totally acceptable in Western media outlets to simply assert as though it’s fact. … Whatever you think of Julian, whatever you think of WikiLeaks, what has been done to him over the last six to seven years is a very sustained, serious, and deliberate violation of his basic liberties, and yet that has been almost entirely disregarded by the Western media, instead the attempt is to make you view him with such disdain and contempt. It’s incredibly insidious because essentially what they’re doing is the dirty work of those who are violating Julian Assange’s rights. Being turned over to the U.S. government, being prosecuted for journalism, for publishing documents has always been his principal worry, and it ought to be the worry of anyone who does journalism anywhere in the world.

    “How to get rid of an unwanted housemate”—Juno Dawson, The Grauniad, 17 Oct. 2018

    “Julian Assange, Cat Hater”—Lia Miller, The New York Times, 9 March 2011

    “The only barrier to Julian Assange leaving Ecuador’s embassy is pride”—James Ball, The Grauniad, 10 Jan. 2018




    • weston 13.1

      I saw that too morrisey the ease with which the journo hacks injected subverted truth into the narrative and as if they had never read any of the Vault 7 releases etc .Glenn greenwald spoke honestly and well as usual but he looked rather odd did u think ?looked like he was pumped up on steroids or something ?

  14. greywarshark 14

    I was thinking about Orwell and 1984 and language. This is relevant to now.
    Duckspeak is a Newspeak term that means “to quack like a duck” (literal meaning) or “to speak without thinking”. Duckspeak can be good or “ungood” (bad) depending on who is speaking, and whether what they are saying aligns with Big Brother’s ideals. To speak rubbish and lies may be “ungood”, but to do so for the benefit of The Party may be good. Orwell explains in the appendix: “Ultimately it was hoped to make articulate speech issue from the larynx without involving the higher brain centres at all.

    Are we getting near Ownlife attitudes and with the desire for consensus getting into groupthink?
    Wikipedia describes Ownlife:
    Ownlife refers to the tendency to enjoy being solitary or individualistic, which is considered subversive. Winston Smith comments that even to go for a walk by oneself can be regarded as suspicious.

    Does this describe what we see every day?
    ‘To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy’.

  15. greywarshark 15

    This morning a spokeswoman? for some parts of the gay community was talking about one of their splinter groups who are called TWERFs or something and whether they exist or not if they aren’t allowed to Twerf. It seems that Gay demands will never stop as s/he said that they have or are trying to get a bill through that gives men who consider themselves women, to have the same rights as women. And pooh-poohs the idea that will give men more opportunity to attack or prey on women. How silly can people get. Of course that will happen. It isn’t women who put cameras at ground level looking up women’s skirts.

    Then there is the practice of giving girls male-sounding names, and a first name that sounds like a surname – did I see Mackenzie Taylor was a female, and Michael Learned also. Females seem to like names of more than one syllable being reduced to one as in Sam for instance. Not too many boys called Sue, but who knows. Nothing has any lasting meaning or definition any more. Protean and disruption are the words for today.

  16. veutoviper 16

    Simionn Liusk on Waleoily [Misspelling intentional]

    Having clicked up TS early morning to only find it was a “Ed overkill start of the day”, I did what I do on such days which is close TS immediately and head elsewhere – anywhere elsewhere, even, if necessary, KB, WO and the Beige one.

    Sometimes even the latter three can come up with interesting reading and insights. This morning WO came up trumps with a fascinating “Must Read” post authored by none other than the (other) man himself, Mr SL. A glimpse into the other side …

    Mr SL advises that “Sick’ Todd McClay will present the (Farrar’s) latest polling numbers to the Nat Caucus today: and

    “Presenting polling is an art form, and Steve Joyce was the master at it. The view of the leadership’s success is dependent on this 5 or 10 minutes when a slideshow of crucial information is put before the troops.

    The stakes are high. Present too much information, and the MPs will know too much and be able to question decisions made at the top. Present too little and they will think they’re not being given the respect they deserve.”

    Mr SL goes on to say that ST (Sick Todd) has a mammoth task ahead as the future of the Leader (and Deputy Leader?) rests on those numbers and the view of the 50-odd MPs have of the current Leader and Deputy Leader.

    In SL’s view, “Run of the mill backbenchers (except the “fucking useless” ones like Maureen Pugh)” know what they hear on the ground and in the news and look for reassurance from the top when they are concerned about the direction of the party.

    “If the presentation does not have a plausible explanation for the numbers presented, backbenchers will want to know why, and they will also want to know if they are going to get re-elected.

    SL goes on to postulate how ST will spin it …

    I will leave it there, but it is actually a fascinating read and (I never thought I would ever say this) well worth the click !!!!! The comments are also worth reading although only a few so far.


    UPDATE – While I was typing the above, a further SL post popped up on the same subject where SL lists a number of questions that Nat MPs should raise re the polling presentation today. (SL also asks WO readers to email links to the post(s) their local Nat MP beforehand.)

    Again, this post provides interesting information as to how apparently the Nats work, building on the following quote from the post:

    “Polling, for very good reasons, is kept close. Only the most senior MPs and staff get a look at Farrar’s numbers. Other than ‘Sick’ Todd, only Bridges, Bennett, Adams, and Collins get the polling. Add on a few staff and consultants, and that’s the tight group. Not even the wider front bench are trusted with the full report containing raw numbers.”


    FURTHER UPDATE – Just noted that Cam S has actually commented on the latter post. Pretty sure that is the first time Cam S has posted/commented for many weeks which cover the period during which both he and Spanish B have turned 50.)

  17. joe90 17

    In one piece.

    My first picture on #Mars! My lens cover isn’t off yet, but I just had to show you a first look at my new home. More status updates:https://t.co/tYcLE3tkkS #MarsLanding pic.twitter.com/G15bJjMYxa— NASAInSight (@NASAInSight) November 26, 2018


  18. greywarshark 18

    Does Search work on finding anything? If so what brower are you on? I can’t get it to work.

    • veutoviper 18.1

      It has not been working for many months – almost a year?

      • greywarshark 18.1.1

        Thanks I thought it might have been just me. And I keep trying it out thinking surely it’s fixed now. And I get a rejection of the email address to lprent in the Contact section so I hope the wheels aren’t falling off.

  19. joe90 19

    Spend months demonising the others, threaten to close the border, ramp up build the wall hysteria, slow legal processes to a crawl, close ports of entry, create a choke point to mass immigrant families and bingo, a manufactured crisis to legitimise the use of force.


    On Fox & Friends, Border Patrol Foundation president defends pepper spraying latinx migrants because “it’s natural. You could actually put it on your nachos and eat it.” pic.twitter.com/QLdQXqqNno— Bobby Lewis (@revrrlewis) November 26, 2018

    • Sabine 19.1

      someone should have done just that and offered it to him with a hardy ‘ bon appetit’.

      Ahh, the economic anxiety of the white working male, it needs pepper spray against the poor, to assuage any further economic anxiety. Just spray a little on your taco, use the tears of children for a bit of salt, and voila bingo, satisfied.

    • Gabby 19.2

      If I was Mexico I would be hurt, nay wounded, by these asylum seekers passing right through. What am I, chopped liver?

  20. greywarshark 20

    Meanwhile beyond Santa Claus, Gay Pride, and Simon Bridges there are bridges crumbling that affect our trade, and our nation’s livelihood. While it is so important for us to all take positions on what that male Santa Claus said, there is a looming problem that we should take to the table before we start on Christmas dinner.

    Gordon Campbell in Scoop writes briefly and effectively on Brexit and it leaves a sinking feeling.

    The New Zealand Interest
    In previous times of trial for the Mother Country over the past 100 years, New Zealand has rushed to Britain’s aid. Not this time. Uncertain times lie ahead for us too though, post Brexit. At best, it could be 2020 before we will finally have to cope with the reality of life beyond the sheep and beef quota access to UK/EU markets that effectively bequeathed to us as Britain’s entry terms when they joined the EEC in 1973.

    A “no deal” Brexit would expose us to those chilly new winds as early as March next year. Both the EU and the UK want a clean break from their obligations to us.

    Right now, the only deal on the table is an offer to split our EU/UK quotas between the two markets according to the historical patterns of trade. We don’t like that prospect one bit.

    Ah, free trade. It is always so bracing.
    (He also brings us up to date on this new vaccine for the bad strain of meningoccal disease.)

    Scoop 3.0 Crowdsale And Crowdfunding Campaign!
    NZ$21,460 pledged
    154 people pledged
    5 days left
    NZ$35,000 minimum target
    Yahoo! Good news and hopefully more of it.

    • Sabine 20.1

      But but, i thought Brexit was the best thing ever.

      it is not? Oh dear.

      • greywarshark 20.1.1

        51.9% voted in Britain FOR this huge, unimaginable change, so of course the government had to follow this clear lead. /sarc

        51.9% for
        48.1% against
        majority of 3.8%

        71.8% of eligible voted (30 million people)
        (That means 28.2% did not vote or non-eligible votes?)
        Stoke-on-Trent voted highest to leave with 69.4%

        Stoke-on-Trent regrets:
        I thought that 350pounds for NHS was promised but the day after I saw this on the side of a bus, Nigel Farage said that was a mistake. I feel duped. I realise it is so complex.

        They want a second referendum that gives an option to remain, saying they were not given all the facts, even told lies by both sides.

        One person says we are calling for a rerun of referendum for Stoke-on-Trent – ‘we don’t want our friends and neighbours to suffer.’
        (It was probably Stoke-on-Trent vote that nudged the leave vote to a majority.)

        • Sabine

          i honestly don’t care about it much.

          It again goes to the notion that the right will vote lockstep while the left will argue itself into a binder of no importance to be ‘inspired, ‘fall in love with’ and all that stuff.
          Fact is more people voted to get out then stay in. Sucks for anyone under 50, really, and sadly many English migrants living in European countries will learn that they indeed are not ‘expats, but migrants. But then, do unto others as you wish others do unto you, and all that jazz.

          as for the trading partners of the EU and England they have had a few years now on their own side to come up with any plans to make up for the shortfalls in trading etc. IF they have not done so, they too deserve what they get. Again, it will be the younger generation that will end up paying the bill, but then it seems to be a global consent atm that apres moi la deluge is the best phrase ever uttered next to I have mine and yours, and ooops there ain’t nothing left.

          Brexit is just another ‘anxiety of the white working male’ maladie, cause this is obviously the only anxiety that matters. So there, you voted, you won, now see where your food comes from, (by boat most of it) and how you pay for it.

          As for NZ, maybe growing less animals for others peoples food ain’t that bad in the long term.

      • Draco T Bastard 20.1.2

        Brexit is bad if you believe in the ‘free-trade’ of FTAs.

        Brexit is good if you understand what free-trade really is and why it will go the way of the dodo.

        • Sabine

          i believe in the stupidity of people, as that one is proven over and over again.

          The kids however, have been screwed over, and anyone over 50 has to some exetend done some of the screwing. If we would be honest we would admit this.

          Now we can argue about going back to the times before ‘free trade ‘ agreements, and how NZ literally grew sheep for England, and how all was well for everyone, except it wasn’t.

          A lot of the things we take for granted will go the way of the dodo, but not because of free trade agreements but simply because the planet is well on its way to heat up above the much vaunted 2 degrees, rising sea levels, and ongoing droughts to just name a few of our issues that are only to be spoken in hushed voices. And no brexit will prepare anyone of it , nor save it. .

          The idea that every country now closes its doors to the ‘undesirables’ and will only let in a few select with the right education is laughable. Cause guess what, the other countries will do the same. Exempt of course are the rich and richer. But that is par for the course, right? Theresa May and her ilk will never suffer the consequences of any of it.

          Brexit, is laughable. Trump is laughable. The saviour of Bresil is laughable. Putin is laughable. Its smoke screen and mirrors, divide and conquer tactics by those too old and to rich to suffer the consequences. A take over of the world by corporation and the mafia (by any other name), but at least Free trade agreements will be a thing of the past.

          and nothing, absolutely nothing is done about the elephant in the room, changing climate, weather weirding, floods, droughs, mega fires that kill people left right n centre. ’twas gods will, really ’twas. And if i survive ‘god was on me side, and if i don’t ‘god wanted me with him. So yeah, lets discuss brexit and the importance of free trade agreements or not.

  21. Ad 22

    Accidental discovery of the day: a news site with a memory.


    • arkie 22.1

      I met a traveller from an antique land,
      Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
      Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
      Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
      And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
      Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
      Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
      The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
      And on the pedestal, these words appear:
      My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
      Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
      Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
      Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
      The lone and level sands stretch far away.

      We were founded on the belief that more is possible and a determination to question assumptions about how the world operates and what lies ahead. And we built those convictions into our name, which comes from “Ozymandias” by Percy Bysshe Shelley. The poem is commonly read as a warning against outsized egos and the impermanence of power. But we choose to read it differently.

      A news site with a silly name based on a deliberate (and hilarious) misreading of an excellent poem. Seems appropriate.

  22. Professor Longhair 23

    Is this inordinately crass and stupid fellow
    trying to suggest that HE is interested in “learning”?


  23. greywarshark 24

    Thanks Ad

    More from the USA.

    Ohio Now Takes Tax Payments in Bitcoin
    Starting today, the Buckeye State will become the country’s first to accept the cryptocurrency from businesses filing their returns. State Treasurer Josh Mandel hatched the idea as part of a bid to push the state’s tech-friendly image: Columbus already boasts a budding tech hub, while Cleveland is attempting to integrate blockchain into its economy. With bitcoin still lacking broad acceptance, Ohio’s move could provide the cryptocurrency an important boost — though given its volatility, it’s unclear whether businesses will be rushing to embrace it.

    General Motors Will Lay Off 14,700, Closing up to 5 Factories
    The American multinational could close the plants – including the Lordstown, Ohio plant that makes the Chevrolet Cruze – amid restructuring efforts to cut costs and realign focus toward electric and autonomous vehicles. 8,100 white-collar and 6,000 factory workers will be impacted as well as 2,500 jobs as part of broader restructuring plans. GM’s chief executive said the action was being taken, ”while the company and the economy are strong to keep ahead of changing market conditions.”

    (What will Trump’s supporters think of this? Whose fault will it be – who will get blamed? Will the company turn its operations to making drones for war use instead?)

    A new report by The Daily Beast has found that President Donald Trump has launched 238 drone strikes in Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan since his inauguration, while experts say the “burden of proof” needed to authorize such attacks has diminished.

  24. greywarshark 25

    I have been getting too serious so am going to regularly put up some comments drawn from Guardian readers in a book of them called “I Think I Can See Where You’re Going Wrong.”

    The more serious things are, the more we need to take time for a quip. Is that a British thing? Some will think these tasteless. That is a matter entirely for you to decide.

    On eco-matters when shopping.

    What about ethical shoplifting; how’s that doing? Just because I’m too skint to afford food doesn’t mean I don’t have ethics you know.

  25. Ed 26

    France Teaches World How To Protest Properly

    • joe90 26.1

      Well, you could get out there and show us how it’s done, eh, Ed.


    • Tricledrown 26.2

      They are protesting against a right wing politician who promised tax cuts and reform he is taking away workers rights but not following through on any other promises. The French bearaucracy is out of control corrupt and stifling productivity he hasn’t got the balls to do anything so is leaving the door open for Le Pen and the Fascists to connect with voters. Le Pen is subtlety fanning the Fascists who are causing the violence!

  26. Ed 27

    Insightful as ever.
    Every word is pure gold.

    [Ed, we’ve had this discussion before. This is not facebook and spamming the site is a no no. Please put up a summary of what readers can expect to find in the videos you link to. Even better, give your own opinion and give time stamps to relevant sections of the vid that support your argument. TRP]

  27. Tricledrown 28

    IfRT is Russia Fox news they are fanning the flames of Divisivness. Russia gets away pushing the boundaries as well as helping weaken and divide Europe.
    Galloway is full of his own self importance another populist.

  28. Tricledrown 29

    Dirty Politics from Nationals Dirty backroom Deals has Slater/Graham/Rich on the back foot with Court rulings that will expose how desperate they are trying to avoid defamation.

  29. eco maori 30

    Kia ora The Am Show.
    The Black Caps did fine especially with the way the wicket changed if you won the toss well I say no more.
    Yes a humane response is needed for our refugees of the world after all they are human.
    Phil that’s a great Idea banning all traffic from Queen St it will make Auckland a cleaner greener city ka pai.
    There you go Age discrimination in the work place this society need to learn to treasure our elderly and stop kicking around the super topic to score points.
    The Prime Minister need good security so 3 million is small fry compared to some other heads of state security bills.
    Its not OK to say harden up some people thrive off bulling others and that has to stop as there are other effects from that bad behavior.
    That was a huge Steer in Australia those Holstein Friesian is to big for the works to butcher well he will have a long life.
    I dispute the fact saying NZ is the second highest place for bulling one just has to cast there eyes around the world to see many other country’s with bad behaviors.
    The hand glider was holding on for dear life the Adrenalin soon starts pumping
    Ka kite ano

  30. eco maori 31

    This is reality Tamariki if we dont drop carbon YOUR world is going to be a place that is very hostile to life its self you need to tell your mothers and fathers that it is not on that they are going to leave you a world full of disasters so let everyone know that you know whats going down humanity.
    World is well off course on goals to cut greenhouse gas emissions
    definitive United Nations report has found that the world is well off course on its promises to cut greenhouse gas emissions – and may have even farther to go than previously thought.

    Seven major countries, including the United States, are well behind achieving the pledges they made in Paris just three years ago, the report finds, with little time left to adopt much more ambitious policy measures to curb their emissions.

    “We have new evidence that countries are not doing enough,” said Philip Drost, head of the steering committee for the United Nations Environment Programme’s (UNEP) annual “emissions gap” report, released in Paris on Tuesday.

    That verdict is likely to weigh heavily during a UN climate meeting that begins in Poland next week, where countries are scheduled to discuss how well they are, or aren’t, living up to the goals set in the landmark 2015 the Paris climate agreement.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/108918120/world-is-well-off-course-on-goals-to-cut-greenhouse-gas-emissions Ka kite ano

  31. eco maori 32

    Eco Maori supports all our School Children who are letting there Governments know that doing nothing to mitigate human caused climate change is a fools move and the Children are not fools they know that they will suffer because of Greedy peoples LIES
    School students protesting climate change have arrived in Canberra after the prime minister told them to be less activist and go back to school.

    Hundreds of students lined up outside Parliament House on Wednesday wanting to speak to Scott Morrison and government ministers about taking emergency action against climate change.

    On Tuesday, the Senate approved a motion to support the students in their decision to strike from school and hold a series of planned national protests.

    Students across the country plan to leave school this week, with protests in Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Perth and Hobart scheduled for Friday.

    On Wednesday it was the turn of Canberra students, who waited in the rain outside parliament and met with Labor, Greens and crossbench MPs, including the federal Greens leader, Richard Di Natale Kia kaha ka kite ano


  32. eco maori 33

    Kia ora Newshub There you go shonky’s tax on smokes has turned smokes into a smugglers enterprise.
    Thats the correct move to deport that Guy who has a very shady past.
    chris finlayson Its cool that he retires and his views can retire with him please don’t go hiring him for Treaty settlement claims .
    The Australian fire season is starting early and now a huge Storm in Sydney to.
    Someone and national cost someone a life because of the toxic culture they created at Work & income /Winz.
    Thats shocking that person is trying to blame the pilot for the Lion Air plane crash when one pays hundreds of millions they don’t expect it to break down being so new know.
    Its correct to educate people on the reality’s of a HIV suffers as the are human to the phobia needs to be cleaned up.
    The Grandchildren favorite cartoon and the Alaskan Crab fisherman’s Sponge Bob the writer died condolences to the writers love ones .
    Ka kite ano

  33. eco maori 34

    Kia ora The Crowd Goes Wild James & Mulls Shawn all the best on your new journey. Kia kaha to the Black Caps.
    Sir Peter Blake was a great man and a Great loss to Aotearoa .
    His memorial will be ka pai Blare I miss Tangaroa .
    Those waves look good to at the wahine surfing .
    He is a Spanish guy and he is playing with the reporters lol.
    Ka kite ano P.S Its ka pai Wahine Sports Stars are getting good media coverage this year

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