Open Mike 27/09/2016

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 27th, 2016 - 175 comments
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175 comments on “Open Mike 27/09/2016”

  1. So much for “If Nikolas Delegat had been poor and brown he would have got gaol time:”

    Wellington rugby player discharged without conviction

    This dumb-cunt boofhead managed a much higher score of injured victims than Delegat, feels the same “remorse” that could be better described as “sentence mitigation tactic” and has escaped a prison term because it might hurt his “career” prospects, to the extent that playing a game for a living can be called a career. Still, nice to see consistency from NZ rugby in the role models it provides for us.

    • vto 1.1

      everyone who comes before the court must be able to run the “will harm my future prospects” line ….

      what “future prospects” are acceptable to the courts, and what “future prospects” are deemed of no value?

      • Draco T Bastard 1.1.1

        what “future prospects” are acceptable to the courts, and what “future prospects” are deemed of no value?

        Whether your future prospects are capable of making you a millionaire or not. It’s essentially the courts deciding who’s worthy or not which is something that the courts simply should not be doing.

    • Richard Rawshark 1.2

      White Privilege
      Sport privilege
      Wealth privilege

      I could go on.

      Classless society all right,

    • Garibaldi 1.3

      Yes , another bullshit case from a thoroughly Neolib society.
      It’s all about ‘personal responsibility’ if you’re a designated loser, but ‘nice guy- give him a break’ if you’re a designated winner.
      It’s not so much a matter of class, it’s a matter of total bloody hypocrisy.

    • ianmac 1.4

      On Morning Report they read out the Judge’s reasons for his judgement on the 17 year old school boy. Not quite so black and white.
      @ 9:20 http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=201817670

      • The judge says:

        Obvious mitigating features would include his age (he was only 17 at the time); his lack of previous convictions; his remorse; willingness to undergo restorative justice; the large body of community support he enjoys suggesting an unlikelihood of ever re-offending; his commitment to counselling and voluntary community work and the like.

        Judges’ willingness to call some particular bullshit a “mitigating feature” is entirely subjective.

        In this case, “remorse” from the kind of person who hangs out on the street looking for people he can issue with an unprovoked beating should be treated with skepticism, not just accepted at face value. Is there any evidence that the shithead perp felt “remorse” at any time other than when he was facing sentencing? Because, according to his victims, there’s evidence that he didn’t.

        The “commitment to counselling and voluntary community work” is likewise easy to say when facing sentencing – actual intent to carry it out is another matter.

        And “the large body of community support he enjoys” is as likely to endow him with a feeling of entitlement to impunity as it is to discourage further offending.

        • ianmac 1.4.1.1

          All that is true Psycho.
          Maybe though the issue of support and remedy and compensation for the victims should be a vital part of the story. Victims do seem to be neglected. Of course whatever happens to the assailant will not change the victims’ position.

          • The New Student 1.4.1.1.1

            +1

            If he got chucked on the scrap heap and left to rot in the company of career crims, would that change anything for his victims? What would they, or anyone, stand to gain?

            Ugh he deserves to have the book thrown at him, and hard. I’m just thinking as to what that would actually achieve tho?

            • Puckish Rogue 1.4.1.1.1.1

              Would going to prison preclude him from a professional sports career?

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Packer

              • Craig H

                Not so important for League because you can have a viable sports career in one or two countries easily, and it helps that NZ and Oz have softer rules for each other than anyone else.

                For rugby, you have to be able to travel for at least Super rugby, and once you get into international and overseas pro comps, international travel is a big part of it.

                The case law on the subject is that loss of careers in these circumstances amount to fines to the amount of the lost income, which can be hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars for a young player with 10-15 years ahead of them, particularly if they from lower socio-economic backgrounds.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  By all accounts hes pretty good at league as well so really protecting his career shouldn’t have come into it as he would still have options after a sentence

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    Yep, including being a truck driver.

                    Protecting a persons possible career is not the job of the courts.

                    • Chuck

                      “Protecting a persons possible career is not the job of the courts.”

                      Agree, its a disgrace that he avoided a criminal conviction. This thug not only stomped (multiply times) on one of his victims head, but also male v female assault.

                      If he was a truck driver, jail time would of been a real possibility…

                    • Craig H

                      In my recent line of work, I have, among other things, been trying to place people (mostly beneficiaries) into low-skilled jobs. It is nigh impossible to place people with convictions of any sort at this level because it’s one of the first filters applied by the employer, rightly or wrongly.

                      I agree with the judge’s reasons because the alternative, in my view, is worse, and will involve throwing a teenager on the scrapheap until the Clean Slate Act saves him, and he can’t even rely on that if he’s jailed. Meanwhile, the gaps in his CV will also make him hard to employ later on.

                      When people say “he deserves it for his actions”, understand that a conviction makes life much, much harder, particularly for young people with no employment history to overcome the conviction in employers’ considerations. Also understand that the outcome is massively expensive to the taxpayer, both in terms of immediate sentence, and in terms of long term welfare dependency.

                      I realise not everyone agrees.

                      However, it’s not just potential pro sports players who receive discharges without conviction. Here are a couple of manslaughter cases which resulted in discharges:

                      http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5981533/Mum-walks-free-after-daughters-drowning

                      http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/69124061/no-conviction-for-woman-in-manslaughter-of-her-son

                      Yes, they are negligent rather than deliberate offenses, but on the other hand, people died.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      In my recent line of work, I have, among other things, been trying to place people (mostly beneficiaries) into low-skilled jobs. It is nigh impossible to place people with convictions of any sort at this level because it’s one of the first filters applied by the employer, rightly or wrongly.

                      You know, the whole idea behind a sentence is that the person convicted has paid their debt to society for the crime that they committed, that there is an end to the punishment. What you’re describing is people continuing the punishment after the punishment is supposed to have ended.

                      Perhaps what we should be doing at the end of the sentence is clearing/hiding the conviction so that people understand that the punishment is over.

                      I agree with the judge’s reasons because the alternative, in my view, is worse, and will involve throwing a teenager on the scrapheap until the Clean Slate Act saves him, and he can’t even rely on that if he’s jailed.

                      I don’t. People who commit crimes should be convicted. What we should be doing is far more in rehabilitation for those convicted and making people understand that the punishment doesn’t go on forever no matter how much those at the Sensible Sentencing Trust want it to.

                    • Craig H

                      I’d love to see it, particularly with substantially stronger Clean Slate legislation (ours is weak compared to elsewhere) and following the Scandinavian model of rehabilitative prisons, but until we do, judges are required to make that decision based on the rules and society we have, not the rules and society we’d like to have.

                      I’d also add the Basic Income and better employment to decrease the 100 applications for 1 job which leads to that kind of filtering – almost as if this stuff is interlinked…

            • Psycho Milt 1.4.1.1.1.2

              If he got chucked on the scrap heap and left to rot in the company of career crims, would that change anything for his victims?

              A prison sentence for him isn’t about improving things for his victims, it’s about protecting his future victims for the duration of his sentence, and hopefully giving him a reason to want to not do stuff that would put him back there again.

              Compensation would change things for his victims – it’s a pity the courts can’t put a lien on his future earnings.

            • Puddleglum 1.4.1.1.1.3

              For me the issue is not what effect putting someone in prison has – clearly not a good effect in many, many cases.

              The issue, however, is that many, many people ARE thrown in prison, and certainly convicted, for just this kind of offence – yet not this person.

              That he has lots of support, ‘mentoring’ and the like actually suggests to me that a conviction (which is what he completely escaped, never mind the sentence) would not be as severe a penalty as it would be for someone who has little social support, ‘mentoring’, etc.. He could ‘bounce back’ from a conviction given all those in his corner.

              He’s actually in better condition and circumstances to sustain a conviction than many who come to court in these circumstances – yet he is the one who is let off.

              Makes no sense.

        • Kevin 1.4.1.2

          No doubt the community work will be rugby centric.

          I have been responsible for ensuring someone doing community work actually does it and it is a bit of a joke really. Very easy to manipulate and abuse.

          His community work involved working with kids around his chosen sport. All his games and practices ended up being community work as well. He probably did about a quarter of what was required.

      • I’m pretty sure Filipo’s not responsible for that one.

      • Colonial Viper 1.5.2

        There are no “moderate” rebels in Syria. Just Islamists who pretend to be moderate in order to get aid and arms from the US, and then go back to being Islamists after receiving the aid and the arms from the US.

        • Morrissey 1.5.2.1

          Colonial Viper, did you hear John “Lord of Empathy” Campbell’s little performance on National Radio yesterday? He seems to have bought in to every single bit of propaganda from the White House about Syria.

          • Colonial Viper 1.5.2.1.1

            oh yeah i heard a bit of that; I replied that Campbell needs to instead interview Stephen F Cohen, Professor Emeritus of Russian Studies, Princeton University and New York University, Contributing Editor to the Nation Magazine.

            • Paul 1.5.2.1.1.1

              This was the interview.

              Miller’s own blurb. This is the propagandist Campbell accepted without question.

              “JAMES MILLER is the Managing Editor of The Interpreter where he reports on Russia, Ukraine, and Syria. James runs the “Under The Black Flag” column at RFE/RL which provides news, opinion, and analysis about the impact of the Islamic State extremist group in Syria, Iraq, and beyond. He is a contributor at Reuters, The Daily Beast, Foreign Policy Magazine, and other publications. He is an expert on verifying citizen journalism, and has been covering developments in the Middle East, specifically Syria and Iran, since 2009. ”

              “The Interpreter is a daily translation and analysis journal funded and presented by Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty. In addition to covering political, social and economic events inside the Russian Federation, it chronicles Russia’s war in East Ukraine and its intervention in Syria in real time.
              Founded in May 2013, this online journal set out with the modest goal of translating articles from the Russian press, the better to lower the language barrier that separates journalists, analysts, policymakers, diplomats and interested laymen in the English-speaking world from events taking place inside the Russian Federation.
              Little did we realize then that The Interpreter would devote as much energy to covering what the Russian Federation got up to outside of its own borders.
              The Interpreter is a leading real-time chronicle and analysis resource on all aspects of the crisis in Ukraine. Every day since violence first erupted in Kiev’s Independence Square, The Interpreter’s Ukraine live-blog has documented a revolution that became a war on European soil, often breaking news stories about Russia’s annexation of Crimea, its maskirovka insurgency in the Donbass, its cross-border shelling of Ukraine, the downing of MH17, and the Minsk II “cease-fire.”

        • Psycho Milt 1.5.2.2

          There are no “moderate” rebels in Syria.

          None? Not a single one out of the entire 20 million people living there? Please keep in mind we’re talking about this planet, not the alternative one inhabited by RT watchers, in which the US government blew up the WTC and the Russian air force magically kills only “terrorists” when it rains phosphorus incendiaries on Aleppo.

          It’s an especially astonishing claim because you’ve previously described the Assad regime, one of the most brutal dictatorships in the Middle East, as “moderate.” Those “Islamist” rebels must be demons in human form…

    • Michelle 1.6

      He escaped a sentence because of section 106 of the crimes act when the punishment may outweigh the crime.

      • Puddleglum 1.6.1

        So why doesn’t everyone whose employment (and future employment) might be jeopardised by a conviction get similar lenient treatment under that section of the crimes act?

        Or does only having a low wage job that’s at stake somehow make a conviction easier to bear?

        When you’re on the bones of your bum, having trouble finding menial work because of a conviction can tip you into far more suffering than missing out on a professional rugby career and having to settle for an ordinary job.

        • Craig H 1.6.1.1

          There are many examples of diversion and discharge without convictions for precisely those reasons – two manslaughter cases are up thread. This gets press because of rugby, but with good legal representation, anyone else could have argued a similar case, and may well have been granted it as well.

  2. Halfcrown 2

    Breaking News.

    CORBYN IS UNELECTABLE.

    That is according to prat Henry. You know the one who had his nose so far up Keys arse yesterday morning it was embarrassing.
    Why I am not surprised by this prats right wing rant. Also, the Guardian is saying the shit against Corbyn is continuing.
    It won’t be Corbyn that is unelectable, it will be the Labour Party that is unelectable if the shits don’t screw their heads in and get in behind the leader, and work to get Thatcher MkII and the Tories out.

    Pat Mc Fadden calls for the party to seek inspiration from Wilson. Wilson who helped to destroy the British Aircraft Industry and fucking Blair a war criminal that should have been arrested years ago for war crimes, was so slippery earned the nickname of “Teflon Tony” McFadden must be fucking joking.

    Quote from the Guardian

    “Pat McFadden, the former minister, called for the party to seek inspiration from its “three great postwar leaders”, who he named as Clement Attlee, Harold Wilson and Tony Blair.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/25/jeremy-corbyn-critics-will-not-be-silenced-despite-unity-calls

    • RedLogix 2.1

      Maybe Corbyn is just feeding them rope ….

    • Kevin 2.2

      Funny how ‘Mr Unelectable’ has held his own seat for 30+ years and now won two leadership elections and increased his majority.

    • Morrissey 2.3

      Corbyn’s detractors want to replace him with someone electable, like THIS BLOKE…

      https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2014/12/11/15/ed-miliband.jpg

    • swordfish 2.4

      “the Guardian is saying the shit against Corbyn is continuing”

      I’m in the UK at the moment and can confirm that – surprise, surprise – the vilification continues. A whole series of spurious, utterly contrived little Gotchas in the broadcast media since Corbyn’s latest victory.

      Same old “Left are Anti-Semitic” smears (eg arch-Blairite Tristram Hunt on ITV’s Peston on Sunday last night) , same sad attempts to portray Corbynite support-group Momentum as a hotbed of violent misogynist larrikins (unfortunately for the Blairite-Brownite brigade – almost two thirds of Women Labour Party Members voted for Corbyn – including, incidentally, my strongly-feminist cousin – a kiwi domiciled in London since the early 80s. Momentum activists, meanwhile, appear to be disproportionately female and middle-aged)

      … and a few new variations on these themes …

      For example, after a post-leadership election TV interview yesterday in which Corbyn’s Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell made very conciliatory gestures towards the PLP, he gets condemned by both the MSM, the Tories and the Establishment Centre-Right of the Labour Party for calling former Tory Minister Esther McVey “a stain on humanity” wayyyyy back in 2014 and refusing to apologise now. (also suggestions that he joked back in 2014 that McVey should be lynched – though he strongly disputes that allegation, suggesting he’d simply reported to the media what had been shouted at him at a public meeting).

      McDonnell actually accepted in the interview that he’d sometimes “gone too far” in criticism of opponents but said voters wanted honesty rather than spin and he had been expressing honest anger back in 2014 over savage Tory Govt cuts to services for people with disabilities (McVey had been Disabilities Minister at the time) … Cue media beat-up over the last couple of days that McDonnell is encouraging a culture of intimidation, abuse and violence in the Party.

      These tropes really are looking increasingly tired and desperate.

      Meanwhile, the PLP plotters are pursuing a strategy of forcing Corbyn into a corner – either give whole-hearted support for the restoration of Shadow Cabinet elections (thus greatly empowering Corbyn’s critics in the PLP and possibly influencing which faction ultimately controls the NEC) or we’ll use every opportunity in the media to portray you as aggressive, divisive and insincere in your calls for unity and compromise.

      • Puddleglum 2.4.1

        Thanks for your report swordfish. Pretty much the impression I got over here from reading the UK media.

        Those who control the narrative … just won’t give up their control of that narrative.

        Makes sense when you don’t have popular support and it’s the only power going. But it results in such transparently silly hypocrisy it’s quite embarrassing. Dignity flies out the door when your grip on the levers starts to get a bit greasy.

        • swordfish 2.4.1.1

          Cheers, Puddleglum.

          Yes, Corbyn’s election has certainly shone a bright light on the enforcer role of various Courtiers and Bottom-feeders to the UK Establishment. Particularly the ruthlessly ambitious network of Blairite fellow-travellers within the “liberal” MSM and academia (not least, my own former lecturer in British politics, Tim Bale).

          It seems that the moment they sniff a perceived threat to their interests, the UK Establishment swiftly closes ranks – and its those desperate souls out on the periphery of power – the most precarious of hangers-on – who appear to be the most aggressive in their defence of the Elite. Much like the legendary social snobbery of the Aristocracy’s leading Servants.

          I enjoyed your Of bewildered herds blog post from July, incidentally. At roughly the same time as you, I was looking through Thrasher and Rallings’ National Equivalent Share of the Vote to try and get an unbiased take on the 2016 UK Locals in comparative perspective (I put all the detailed results going back to the late 70s in a draft post on my blog for future reference but, here in the UK, I’m locked out of both my email and my blog. Happens every time !).

          Although some of Corbyn’s more enthusiastic supporters got a little carried away in their celebration of Labour’s result, the much more obvious spin came from the PLP plotters and their chums in the UK media who outrageously claimed that it was Labour’s worst performance in decades (They had a pre-prepared script and they were determined to stick to it)

          For me, Labour’s Local Election results were mediocre but a long way from the disaster Blairites and Brownites were both predicting beforehand and desperately claiming afterwards.

  3. Pasupial 3

    This was a timely and welcome return with the first presidential debate being imminent:

  4. adam 4

    A couple of really good points from the Pope.

    All about corruption…

    https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2016/09/18/pope-francis-says-corruption-addictive-drugs/

    You can just see some priests kicking themselves over that one.

    And for all of you who take peace seriously…

    http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/peace-requires-us-to-do-more-than-change-the-channel-pope-francis-says-95272/

    Good to see a more united Christendom

    • Muttonbird 5.1

      Yawn.

      • Puckish Rogue 5.1.1

        You’re really not interested in the Trump v Clinton debate?

        • Draco T Bastard 5.1.1.2

          Two establishment figures working for the establishment?

          No.

          • Paul 5.1.1.2.1

            pr sees politics are a form of entertainment, not a means to improve our society and our world.

            • Puckish Rogue 5.1.1.2.1.1

              It can ackshully be both so I’m interested in seeing how Clinton is going to handle Trump and vice versa

              Its probably going to determine the US election (or at least a large part of it) so yeah I look forward to it

          • Puckish Rogue 5.1.1.2.2

            I’m actually genuinely surprised about this, the amount of posts and threads on Clinton v Saunders and then Clinton v Trump I’d have thought people would want to see this

            • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.2.2.1

              Definitely, though I may not be able to watch it live this afternoon unfortunately

              • Puckish Rogue

                I’m wondering if I have the sound down real low I might be able to catch it on line though management tend to look down on that sort of thing 🙂

                • Colonial Viper

                  It won’t be as fun but there’s got to be a live subtitled version somewhere for the hearing impaired

            • mauī 5.1.1.2.2.2

              Jennifer Saunders is from the UK and isn’t running for Pres.

            • Draco T Bastard 5.1.1.2.2.3

              I’m pretty sure that there’s a lot of people interested in it. I’m not one of them and I’ve been keeping myself out of the Trump/Clinton debate as well. I don’t think either of them will be good for the US or the world.

      • Bearded Git 5.1.2

        +1,000,000 Muttonbird. Hype and more hype-Trump/Clinton will have been coached and scripted to the nth degree. Nothing new to learn here.

        What gets me is the financial commentators are saying the stock market is jumping around on the basis of this debate, rather than on economic fundamentals.

        On the same theme NZ’s awful trade figures today have been spun by the media as showing how strong the economy is where in fact it shows that we are not paying our way in the world. Borrowing and spending on flash cars and boats cannot go on ad infinitum, though Key and Blinglish seem to think it is fine.

  5. adam 6

    If you watch no other music video this year.

    The wonderful and thought provoking Saul Williams.

    I’m a candle…

  6. Paul 7

    A dose of reality in the msm for once.

    Today’s greenhouse gas levels could result in up to 7 degrees of warming

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/84687810/todays-greenhouse-gas-levels-could-result-in-up-to-7-degrees-of-warming

    • Bill 7.1

      Dunno about that Paul.

      The piece couches seven degrees in a 1000 year time frame. So, nothing to be concerned about. (Forget that we’re on track for something like four or six on our present course or that even if all Paris pledges honoured we’ll be hitting three or four)

      Then the vid has talk of rectifying climate change – y’know, like we’ll just stick everything back together after we’ve broken it.

      • Garibaldi 7.1.1

        Don’t count on your time frame Bill. No-one knows exactly how this planet is going to behave because we have no record of such rapid change to make comparisons with. Anything is possible, and it’s not too far away (say ,about two decades).
        Of course if you are an expert , like Hosking , then everything is business as usual and all will be honkydory as soon as these sunspots go away. Afterall these leftie plonkers that believe in Climate Change have just made a poor choice haven’t they?

        • Bill 7.1.1.1

          I didn’t give a time frame.

          No-one knows exactly how everything will respond to rising CO2. But we can extrapolate from ‘bench top’ experiments and employ concepts of probability to account for the uncertainty that a complex set of systems introduces to matters.

          So we know that ‘x’ amount of CO2 will result in ‘y’ warming in a bench top scenario.

          From that we can suggest carbon budgets for the planet and attach probable outcomes to each budget total. Not full proof. But bloody useful.

          And when we throw in known rates of CO2 emissions, we can give a range of likely outcome. So. At present rates, we’re looking at 4 – 6 by century’s end. With Paris commitments, we’re looking at 3 – 4 by century’s end.

          ‘Century’s end’ doesn’t mean that we don’t hit that range of temperature before then – just that it’s the likely temp at that snapshot in time.

          And, of course, that’s consciously and necessarily ignoring any and all non-linear tipping points that would set temps soaring and render any climate action redundant. All we know about them is that we don’t want them and that they become more likely with each incremental rise in temp.

          • Colonial Viper 7.1.1.1.1

            So we know that ‘x’ amount of CO2 will result in ‘y’ warming in a bench top scenario.

            That’s fine for a simplified, highly linear world, as you have identified.

            However, you have also pointed out the reality which largely invalidates the usefulness of those bench top scenarios – or even the most complex climate models of today – as they do not account for all the positive feedback loops that climate change has already kicked off.

            Everything from methane releases from fracking and melting permafrost (today’s increased atmospheric methane levels are equivalent to an extra 40-50ppm CO2), to the reduced albedo due to lost arctic sea ice, to the increased level of water vapour (a powerful greenhouse gas) in the atmosphere as the planet warms, to the cooling effect of the reflective heat shield that industrial pollutants in the atmosphere give us – which will disappear as we reduce the amount of coal and diesel that we burn, to the fact that large areas of rain forests – like the Amazon – have now become net contributors of CO2 as they become ravaged by climate change droughts and fires.

            • Bill 7.1.1.1.1.1

              The dynamics of feedback loops are not known. What the threshold is for initiating any of the numerous feedback loops is also not known and probably not knowable. Feedback loops can only be learned about in retrospect – hardly useful. Given that, they can’t be factored in. Now, what’s your problem? Things aren’t being made to sound terrible enough?

              Atmospheric concentrations of various gasses can be and are taken. Again, given the nightmarish complexities involved, extrapolations are made from basic knowable ‘bench top’ observations. Those extrapolations become more refined as better knowledge is gained from the observation of the real world situation.

              What has been said to date – and this won’t hold in the future – is that the clutch of negative and positive forcings more or less balance out so that just looking at CO2 gives us a useful and usable ball park view of things.

              But are you really saying that all the science around CO2 should be thrown away or disregarded and that we should just grapple blindly? Shining any light into a dark room is useful.

              As a comparison. You know that the world view we use for navigation is a croc of shit? We place the world at the centre of things…and that’s not how things are. But it works – it’s accurate enough. The alternative is a complex tangle of head wrecking nonsense that produces results that are no better for most day to day, real world applications of navigational knowledge than the ‘wrong headed’ or simplistic one most people employ.

              By the way – did you note that I wasn’t referring to models at all? No matter what complexities you want to feed in, they work on assumptions – circular walks in other words. Simply change an assumption (or two) if the results aren’t what are being sought. That’s useful for gaining understanding or insight.

              • Colonial Viper

                Well, I think the whole mindset of – we still have this many more hundred gigatonnes of carbon dioxide we can put up, we have until 2030/2040/2050 to do this and do that – all that needs to be ended, right now, and some realistic talk take its place.

                The dynamics of feedback loops are not known. What the threshold is for initiating any of the numerous feedback loops is also not known and probably not knowable.

                However, at least some of these aren’t theoretical future phenomena. All the feedback loops I mentioned, defrosting permafrost, darkening of the arctic etc, are already well in motion.

                • Bill

                  I’ll indulge you one last time on this. (Will it finally get through to you?)

                  Until now, governments and NGOs have not quantified CO2. All they’ve done is push everything out into the future, disregard accumulated and accumulating amounts of CO2 and promised to cellotape everything back together after we’ve smashed it up.

                  The introduction of budgets provides a quantitative measure to work to/from. So all the unscientific and deeply insane talk of 30 below 1990 by 50 or whatever becomes redundant. Carbon budgets mean we have to look at what carbon we are releasing today and sort out what we are doing today.

                  Analogy?

                  How CC has been treated.

                  We’ll undertake to only drink half as much as we’re drinking now by the time 2 a.m. comes around. We’ll be right. We’ll have developed some detox wonder drug or technique by 2.30 am.

                  With carbon budgets.

                  If we carry on drinking like this, we’re on track for severe alcohol poisoning. We know that, by and large, the human body can only tolerate x amount of alcohol. So we can consume no more than y amount of alcohol if we want to avoid severe alcohol poisoning.

                  But you’d dismiss the latter because it wasn’t tabulating precise body weight or individual tolerances and a host of other factors?

                • Bill

                  However, at least some of these aren’t theoretical future phenomena. All the feedback loops I mentioned, defrosting permafrost, darkening of the arctic etc, are already well in motion.

                  See, here’s the question that you need to ask. Is defrosting permafrost (etc) currently irreversible? If it is, then we’re looking a non-linearity. If it’s not, then we’re not.

                  Can you answer that question one way or the other without the answer just being a matter of opinion?

                  Then – and even if your opinion is correct (that feed-back loops are proceeding) – what’s the point in clutching feverishly at the cock of doom?

        • Colonial Viper 7.1.1.2

          We are in the midst of “abrupt climate change.” While there is no strict definition of what this is, major climate alterations occurring within one human life span would seem to count.

          Methane release craters hundreds of metres wide, being discovered on land and on the sea floor.

          I pick two degrees centigrade increase by 2030 (we are over one degree now) and four to six degrees centigrade by 2100.

          That’s on average of course. Warming of five deg C to ten deg C over the last century has already been identified in various regions of the Arctic circle.

          Which means that over the next 2 to 3 human generations (assuming a “generation” = 30 years or so) we are going to see multi metre sea level rise.

          By the way, in the 1990s and early 2000s, serious scientists were talking about how anything over one degree C warming meant that we would cause serious, dangerous damage to the planet as we know it.

          But like a frog in a pot of heating water we make excuses for how we can still manage things successfully.

          • Paul 7.1.1.2.1

            Professor Guy McPherson’s November 2016 NZ Speaking Tour

            In November 2016 Professor Guy McPherson will be returning to NZ for another speaking tour on Runaway Abrupt Climate Change. ,

            https://kevinhester.live/2016/05/15/professor-guy-mcphersons-november-2016-nz-speaking-tour/

            • weka 7.1.1.2.1.1

              People like McPherson need to stop flying. If they don’t, other people less commited will look at them and get the message that we can carry on BAU (see, the CC activists are still flying, it must be alright!). Actions speak louder than words.

              I’m not only talking about the GHG emissions of his flights (divided by the numbers of people on the plane). I’m talking about the bigger picture. How much of the infrastructure that McPherson will use to get here is precisely the things that are causing CC. eg demands for cheap flights creates demand for new infrastructure, including new airports, which in turn increase the number of flights. And following from that all the GHG emitting infrastructure from transport, accommodation, meals etc. Unless one believes that airplanes will soon run on something other than FF, we have to stop flying now unless it is essential. There is no way around that argument morally if we are taking CC seriously.

              We have the technology to share information without travelling (‘speaking tours’ are generally information sharing and not a lot else). And we need to be working towards relocalising as much as we can, and that includes activism (and making a living from speaking engagements). McPherson could instead be working with local activists remotely, training them up, getting them to work in their own communities, through NZ networks etc.

              In order to respond meaningfully to CC we have to change our behaviour, all of us. And we have to stop using the cultural and conceptual tools that created CC in the first place (in this case flying, travel at will, globalisation,

      • Colonial Viper 7.1.2

        One reason it appears to be a “thousand year time frame” is because the scientists analysis wanted to cover several million years.

        There is nothing to say that the 7 deg C rise detected in any given millenia could not have happened in say just 200 years.

        Indeed, modern ice core analysis techniques can give researchers a year by year (or even month by month) account of how the atmosphere and climate changed. This is how scientists detected that in the past, parts of Greenland warmed by 10 deg C in just a few years.

        The researchers talked about in the article could not have given us this same year by year account as much of the research they were examining for their own work would have been done before such techniques were available.

        • Garibaldi 7.1.2.1

          Thanks CV… just what I said above, but with a little more verbosity!

          • Colonial Viper 7.1.2.1.1

            A bad habit of mine lol

            We’re already really fucked, but to have any chance at all we need to radically change everything we do today, and how we do it. And even then we’ll probably still be fucked but you might as well try and have fun doing it.

            • marty mars 7.1.2.1.1.1

              Yeah we could support deniers too – like you do.

              • Colonial Viper

                I’ve learnt a lot about climate change in the last 6 months marty mars, do yourself a favour and do the same.

                • I know deniers are the problem and hypocrites also. What have you learnt 5ppm?

                  • Colonial Viper

                    That during Democratic President Obama’s time, some of which Sec State Clinton was the top foreign policy officer, CO2 levels went up 20ppm, deep sea wells got green lit even after Deep Sea Horizon, the USA fought hard to water down the languaging at Paris COP, the fracking industry grew huge and Obama boasted how this would make the USA be energy independent.

                    But you support the Democrats if that makes you feel better, just make sure you understand what their true record on climate change actually is.

        • Bill 7.1.2.2

          Point is that a media outlet headlined a possible 7 degree increase in a thousand years from now. Most casual readers (most people) would take that as some eye-brow raising factoid about the distant future…and then get straight down to their carbon profligacy. Climate change (the headline suggests) is a thousand years away. If 7 degrees takes a thousand years, then 1 degree takes 1/7th of 1000 years. Nothing to worry about. Torch that oil.

          • Colonial Viper 7.1.2.2.1

            Ok that’s the casual reader, and yes they probably thought – hey that’s a long time away that makes it someone elses problem.

            How about our university educated political elite class? What message will they take from it?

            • Bill 7.1.2.2.1.1

              What is this ‘university educated political elite’ you refer to? You mean politicians?

              You think the piece in stuff was penned with politicians in mind? Even in the highly unlikely event that it was, why would a politician (assuming that’s what you mean by that phrase you used) be more or less likely to read it in any way differently to any other reader?

    • If the permafrosts melt, get ready for a methane overload. And some pretty nasty consequences to go with it.

      https://willnewzealandberight.com/2016/09/25/carbon-dioxide-not-th-only-gas-threat-to-climate/

      • Colonial Viper 7.2.1

        Quite true, although I am not sure why you used the word “IF”.

        The permafrost is melting.

        Entire Siberian towns are falling down as the foundations of buildings crumble over through softening permafrost and huge sink holes open up.

        Under the sea, researchers have taken video of mile long plumes of methane bubbles rising up from destabilised thawing methane hydrates as if the water is lemonade.

  7. Paul 8

    Heather du Plessis Allen writes some sense.

    New Zealand, we looked like hypocrites this week.
    We told the rest of the world to help with Syria, but we’re not doing our own share.
    Prime Minister John Key gave the United Nations a telling off this week.
    He said the international community had failed Syria.

    This is the exact quote:

    “Syria has become a byword for failure. Failure of the parties and their supporters to put peace, and the lives of innocent people ahead of self-interest and zero-sum politics.”
    It would be a bold statement, if not for our double-standards.
    If New Zealand had put “the lives of innocent people ahead” of “politics” we’d have taken more refugees.
    There are more Syrians who have fled their country than there are Kiwis living in New Zealand: an estimated 5 million of them.
    We offered to take an extra 750 a year ago (7 September 2015)​.​
    Lebanon is a country of roughly the same size as New Zealand. They’ve taken more than a million refugees. Admittedly, Lebanon doesn’t have much choice given its proximity to Syria, but regardless, the international burden isn’t being spread equally.
    The truth is, John Key would suffer politically if he accepted thousands of Syrians and things went wrong. Maybe they’d struggle to get jobs. Maybe they’d put pressure on housing.
    But hey, he reckons we should put the lives of innocent people ahead” of “politics”.

    http://www.radiolive.co.nz/HEATHER-DU-PLESSIS-ALLAN-Were-hypocrites/tabid/615/articleID/129036/Default.aspx

    Sharon Murdoch nails it.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CtJUd2VVUAAYDId.jpg:large

  8. Dvdr 9

    Has anyone noticed that since Key has been at the UN ‘helping’ Clarke her rating in the straw polls have been falling.

    • Enough is Enough 9.1

      Yeah – Because the International Media and Leaders of every country hate Keys and laugh at him

      He is a disgrace

  9. Manuka AOR 10

    Bunker bombs being used in Aleppo:
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/26/hell-itself-aleppo-reels-from-alleged-use-of-bunker-buster-bombs

    “Schools, orphanages and hospitals in Aleppo that moved underground to escape the destruction around them now feel that even they are at risk.

    ” “When I saw it I thought, my God, is it possible that there is so much destruction here and nobody wants to help us?” he said. “At that moment I knew that the international community had sentenced us to death, that we would be recorded as martyrs that they will weep over at some future date.”
    ————
    “I’ve been in Aleppo for five years and I’ve seen a lot of bombing, but the destruction of these bombs, I have never seen before,” said Omar Arab, a journalist who lives in the Mashhad neighbourhood..
    ———–
    “The mask fell a long time ago from Russia and the regime, but now the mask has fallen from human rights defenders, from the international community. This is hell itself.”

  10. Sacha 11

    At last a Council actually does what Penny Bright thinks has been going on elsewhere all the time – breach the Public Records Act: http://norightturn.blogspot.co.nz/2016/09/full-and-accurate.html

    As previously discussed, the PRA plays no part in decisions about *releasing* information – that’s the Local Government Official Information and Meetings Act (LGOIMA).

  11. Repateet 12

    Among the insanity it seems that if you do anything for the rugby player perpetrator of the violent attacks who has been in the news, that you condone what he did.

    So someone who serves him take-aways condones his behaviour.

    These deductions from the Paul Henry book of logic. Which it must be said, include more than a few chapters on the “look at me” syndrome.

  12. James 13

    Mood of the boardroom survey.

    Warning you have to scroll a long way down for Mr Little … Marks out of 5

    Jacinda however received a strong endorsement.

    1 – Bill English 4.51
    2 – John Key 4.00
    3 – Steven Joyce 3.51
    4 – Jacinda Ardern 3.37
    5 – James Shaw 3.21
    6 – Jonathan Coleman 3.17
    7 – Simon Bridges 3.12
    9 – Annette King 3.10
    10 – Anne Tolley 3.09
    11 – Michael Woodhouse 3.06
    12 – Phil Twyford 2.93
    13 – Nathan Guy 2.91
    14 – Todd McClay 2.90
    15 – Winston Peters 2.90
    16 – Grant Robertson 2.86
    17 – Hekia Parata 2.85
    18 – Murray McCully 2.77
    19 – David Shearer 2.72
    20 – Gerry Brownlee 2.66
    21 – David Parker 2.55
    22 – Nick Smith 2.52
    23 – Chris Hipkins 2.46
    24 – Julie-Anne Genter 2.42
    25 – Metiria Turei 2.37
    26 – David Clark 2.35
    27 – Maggie Barry 2.34
    28 – Andrew Little 2.22
    29 – Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga 2.15
    30 – Ron Mark 2.13

      • Red 13.1.1

        Get out of the cave Paul, the shadows are not reality

        • James 13.1.1.1

          Hes kind of ignorant like that. Head in sand and not very bright.

          • Paul 13.1.1.1.1

            I mean it.
            Why do most people care what CEOs think?
            If you could just answer the question as opposed to the usual ad hominems.

            • James 13.1.1.1.1.1

              Well. Some voters care for a start.

              And let’s face it – being on 7% preferred PM you would think Little would care as well.

              • Paul

                Yes the CEOs represent the 1%.
                So ACT voters care.

                • adam

                  It’s not who cares Paul. It’s so what you Tory scum bags, so business like you. Are you that retarded you need a survey to tell you that the party represents their issues is supported by them.

                  Seems the Tory scum in this country are that stupid…

      • Chuck 13.1.2

        “Who cares?”

        Well for one the Labour party president who’s job is to fund raise for the 2017 election.

        With Andrew Little rating below the grandmother of NZ gardening (Maggie Barry) it clearly indicates that Little has little respect (and confidence) from the business community.

        And Paul ask yourself why James Shaw is so high on the list…and for that matter Jacinda…

        • Paul 13.1.2.1

          Why would the leader of a socialist party want the support of neo-liberal business leaders.

        • BM 13.1.2.2

          Sausage sizzles Chuck, no need for these neo-liberal business swine.

        • adam 13.1.2.3

          I for one am getting tired of your straw man arguments Chucky. Go troll whaleoil, I’m sure he’d love to have your half baked conspiracy theories.

          • BM 13.1.2.3.1

            Where is the conspiracy theory Adam?

            Labour needs funds, business has funds, business thinks Andrew Little is a clown, therefore highly likely business won’t part with much needed funds.

            • In Vino 13.1.2.3.1.1

              He who pays the piper calls the tune. Getting money from business was Labour’s greatest mistake, and they are still paying for it. But your vision is limited to the importance of finance and business, it seems.

    • Halfcrown 13.2

      Well, that list has lost it’s credibility straight away when they list The Double Dipping Dickhead from Dipton who I would not trust with the local boy scouts jamboree money let alone the economy as the top of the hit parade.

      • Paul 13.2.1

        He is responsible for this.
        $111 billion and counting.

        http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/newzealand

      • BM 13.2.2

        And your credentials regarding finance are ?

        • Richard Rawshark 13.2.2.1

          Pretty much all of our credentials including yours are ” Not having added 100 Billion to the nations debt.”

          Bill English is , has and always will be a tool, a sly old double dipping no nothing tool. I suppose the best on economics they had was someone who was smart enough to claim housing costs whilst owning a home in Wellington.

          Isn’t that also about the time Rodney and a few others got greedy too.

          • BM 13.2.2.1.1

            Yeah, we should has slashed benefits,cut WFF and taken an axe to the public sevice , none of this borrowing money to get us through the earth quake and global recession 🙄

            And the left wonders why no one takes them seriously.

            • Muttonbird 13.2.2.1.1.1

              I reckon Cullen would have got us through, with a surplus, the two big debt excuses Nats like yourself always trot out, the GFC and the quakes.

            • ropata 13.2.2.1.1.2

              Or maybe English shouldn’t have done a regressive tax switch, or bailed out SCF, or trashed CoalCorp, or impoverished thousands of workers

    • Bearded Git 13.3

      Badge of Honour for Little

    • Gabby 13.4

      Bingles speaks their language. He’s really good at not noticing stuff and he doesn’t think anything stinks to high heaven. Ponyboy knows a not tax haven when he doesn’t see one.

      Can’t imagine what a bunch of bonus hungry ceos could possibly see in them.

  13. Anne 14

    Anyone else had one of these from Spark?

    Hi there,

    As you may have heard in the news, on Friday 23 September our current email provider, Yahoo, announced that they had discovered a security breach that took place in late 2014 where a large number of customer accounts were compromised.

    Unfortunately we believe that your account was one of these. While Yahoo have advised that they have no evidence that the stolen passwords were used to gain unauthorized access to your account, we highly recommend you change your email password now to keep your email safe.

    Changed my password, but I sure would like to know which “foreign government” enabled the hacking. Russia or China?

    • Paul 14.1

      Did you notice this?

      “Please note: By resetting your password, you are also giving permission for Spark to bring my email home in the move early next year. Once your email has been moved, it will continue to be provided free of charge as long as you have a broadband, dial-up or mobile broadband service plan with us on the same account. If you don’t have one of these plans, Xtra email will cost $5.95 per month from early next year.”

    • Colonial Viper 14.2

      Changed my password, but I sure would like to know which “foreign government” enabled the hacking. Russia or China?

      The United States is a “foreign government” and they have worked closely with all the large internet providers to put back doors in all their systems.

      • Richard Rawshark 14.2.1

        Try the GSCB, five eyes n all that.., they know i’m a hard core sympathizer for the communist, isis, holy trinity roman catholic death squad lefty righty splinter group hell bent on planting another highly explosive bomb on the table at any meeting that might occur near Emperor Rimmer and Herr Keynocio in the future,

        Long live the rebellion alalalalalalalala

        Who knows if they want to trawl through some account I have I hope letters from mum were worth the several days it probably took them to get it.

        No doubt i’ll be getting mailing from readers digest and lotto’s in Europe saying that I won, can’t wait.

        A cousin in Kenya, left millions from a dieing spinster, my lucks changing.

  14. rsbandit 15

    What’s the dirty deal in Mt Roskill?

    I thought we were better than NACT….

    Not impressed.

    • Anne 15.1

      No dirty deal. I have no doubt the Greens decided it wasn’t worth the expense of standing a candidate especially when Labour’s candidate, Michael Wood is so highly regarded. Open and honest.

      Unlike National who pretended to stand a candidate in Epsom while making sure their voters knew to vote for the ACT candidate. Dirty and dishonest.

      • Chuck 15.1.1

        “No dirty deal. I have no doubt the Greens decided it wasn’t worth the expense of standing a candidate especially when Labour’s candidate, Michael Wood is highly regarded by both parties. Open and honest.”

        Oh please Anne can’t you at least be a little honest??

        Here is what Metiria Turei said today…

        “The Mt Roskill by-election will be closely contested, and we don’t want to play any role in National winning the seat.”

        http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11717757

        • rsbandit 15.1.1.1

          Right. There is no moral high ground here at all. If it’s dirty when NACT do it, it’s dirty when we do it.

          Dirty Politics. Disappointed.

          • In Vino 15.1.1.1.1

            False equivalence. Not putting up a candidate to avoid splitting left vote is far less despicable than National putting up a candidate, telling him not to campaign, then telling Nats to vote for a tiny party that would have no seat in Parliament without such skulduggery. Nats would normally win easily in Mt Eden. Not the same thing at all. Greens all that time ago won their electorate because enough people genuinely supported Jeanette. Nobody ever believed in ACT winners in Epsom = dirty rort; Greens are clean. And please note – Jeanette won her seat in 1993 before MMP, so no rort there. No extra seat in parliament, as Epsom gives.

        • framu 15.1.1.2

          and the rest of the article directly after your link makes it clear all it is is an independant decision by the greens to not run in that seat

          theres no deal
          theres no directing voters to vote labour
          theres no joint decision by labour and greens

          and most importantly,

          the greens arent engineering a situation that allows a sub 5% party to get a seat

          the whole thing is a dumb beat up

          • Chuck 15.1.1.2.1

            Its quite funny reading these comments…at least Bearded Git is being honest about the situation (apart from pulling a candidate, its not the same).

            Unlike framu, Anne, Paul, adam etc.

      • Paul 15.1.2

        Ignore the chuck troll.

    • Cinny 15.2

      MMP for the win, hope they do the same for the Nelson seat. MOU all the way.

    • Bearded Git 15.3

      @rsbandit It is an entirely sensible decision. If National is going to do deals in Epsom election after election, which it does, then any electorate is fair game for a deal on the Left.

      And the argument that National never pulls its candidate in Epsom is bollocks-it told people to vote for Seymour/Act and gave Goldsmith a high place on the list, which is 99% the same as pulling a candidate.

      Now the Greens need to pull their candidate from Ohariu in the election.

  15. Paul 16

    Dr Gabor Maté – Why Capitalism Makes Us Sick

  16. lprent 17

    For those who want to know why the site had some outages and now has a different performance profile…

    The caching plugin using on the site proved to have a nasty vulnerability. The update provided to fix it broke the site. I’ve been having too many issues with it, so I fixed by purchasing and installing a different one.

    Expect a few idiocies from the site while I tune this one up. Looks adequate so far.

  17. Richard Rawshark 18

    If MMP were a software program it’s got a massive bug and needs a programmer to fix it.

    Simply put.

    The ACT scam with National, shows how the bug can be exploited.

    But since this bug/glitch exploitation favours a particular party that’s ok.

    IF you want people to engage in the political system make the political system hold a smidgeon of integrity.

    But I don’t think ANY of you MP’s want that.

    • rsbandit 18.1

      Well said.

      We can’t say just because they do, we’ll do it. That makes us no better. If we don’t have our integrity, then why should we trust our politicians any more than we trust the other team?

      No deals. I hope this not the shape of things to come, because it makes a mockery of MMP.

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