Open Mike 27/11/2016

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 27th, 2016 - 137 comments
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137 comments on “Open Mike 27/11/2016 ”

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  1. Pat 1
    27 November 2016 at 8:02 am

    “It’s probably necessary to stop here and point out a couple of things. First of all, the fact that free trade is bad policy doesn’t mean that every kind of trade barrier is good policy. The habit of insisting that the only possible points along a spectrum are its two ends, common as it is, is an effective way to make really bad decisions; as in most things, there’s a middle ground that yields better results than either of the two extremes. Finding that middle ground isn’t necessarily easy, but the same thing’s true of most economic and political issues.”

    http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.co.nz/2016/11/the-free-trade-fallacy.html

    deja vu…..plus climate change

  3. save nz 3
    27 November 2016 at 8:52 am

    Inside The Invisible Government: John Pilger On War, Propaganda, Clinton And Trump

    https://newmatilda.com/2016/10/28/inside-the-invisible-government-john-pilger-on-war-propaganda-clinton-and-trump/

  4. James 4
    27 November 2016 at 9:37 am

    Andrew little showing his class. Might as well have called him a scab.

    Makes him look like the “union man” he is.

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/politics/nick-leggett-wasnt-true-labour—andrew-little-2016112615

    • Anne 4.1
      27 November 2016 at 10:17 am

      That link was discussed here yesterday. Glad you brought it up again.

      Excerpt:

      “People who are aligned to the Labour cause actually genuinely take action about improving housing, about lifting incomes, about making sure that schools are properly funded, and our hospitals are properly funded.

      “What they don’t do is go around looking for those on the highest incomes to back them – to challenge whoever because that’s all they want. Labour people, passionate Labour in their heart – they stick with Labour, they campaign on Labour issues, and for the Labour Party. Nick’s not one of those people.”

      Andrew Little is bang on. Pseudo supporters who are only in the party for what they can get out of it. Having used Labour to its fullest capacity, they then scarper off to greener pastures. I think you could put people like Phil Quin and Josie Pagani into much the same boat.

      I note on Q&A today that Pagani has given herself a new title – Public Affairs specialist.

      • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1
        27 November 2016 at 10:20 am

        I note from Q&A today that Pagani has given herself a new title – Public Affairs specialist.

        Ah, so she’s gone full RWNJ.

      • Pete George 4.1.2
        27 November 2016 at 10:54 am

        Yeah, Labour can afford to be really picky about who they approve as left wing enough.

        Leggett, Pagani, Quin and the other 10-15% of voters that Labour has lost are all dispensable. If they lose some all they need to do is accept their reduced party status and use Greens and maybe NZ First to make up the difference.

        • save nz 4.1.2.1
          27 November 2016 at 11:04 am

          Labour moving away from the RWNJ’s (Leggett, Pagani, Quin) will mean the missing millions might feel confident voting for them again..

          • Pete George 4.1.2.1.1
            27 November 2016 at 11:09 am

            Good luck with that one. It’s a strategy that has failed before, but maybe if it’s repeated enough times it will work eventually.

            The problem is that Labour seems to expect the non-voters to understand them and support them. They don’t seem to try let alone succeed in understanding the non-voters.

            Repeatedly trying to sell a a failed product to very reluctant buyers is a bit of a challenge.

          • chris73 4.1.2.1.2
            27 November 2016 at 11:36 am

            Were the Greens not left enough for the missing million, were Internet Mana too right wing?

            Its not like there weren’t options for the voters, I think the idea that the missing million are all disaffected Labour voters is pie in the sky stuff

            • Peter Swift 4.1.2.1.2.1
              27 November 2016 at 11:42 am

              If two terms of key’s government wasn’t enough motivation to get the missing million off their bums on election day and voting for any opposition party to prevent a third, then their hearts, and minds, really can’t be in it.

              I wouldn’t advocate writing them off, they’re still a huge potential voting block, but I wouldn’t build a campaign around them or labour under the expectation they’ll all of a sudden engage.
              Labour/Greens just need to keep the policy coming.

          • herb 4.1.2.1.3
            28 November 2016 at 3:22 pm

            For a start there aren’t millions of missing voters .
            Arrogantly assuming there are and not only that they will vote left is silly.

            Are you saying this indolent class of person who can’t get of there arse to vote , ipso facto demonstrating left wing characteristics .

            Aren’t there any indolent right wing voters?

        • Psycho Milt 4.1.2.2
          27 November 2016 at 11:06 am

          Oh for fuck’s sake. It’s the “Labour” Party – even for someone as incapable of understanding what people are telling him as you are, that name should be a bit of a giveaway as to whom the part exists for. Just in case you are as obtuse as ever, it’s for people who are on the side of labour – Leggett, Pagani et al are not and should be pissing into someone else’s tent.

          • Pete George 4.1.2.2.1
            27 November 2016 at 11:14 am

            Oh FFS yourself.

            Leggett, Pagani, Quin, Shane Jones, the Maori MPs et al are people who helped get Clark’s Labour into Government and stay there for for nine years.

            If Labour wants to ditch it’s ‘broad church’ appeal and piss on anyone who won’t accept their narrowing appeal without criticism then they are heading towards voluntary minor party status.

            They’ve already ditched ‘Labour’ and replaced it with ‘Labour+Greens’ and expect to appeal to non-voters who don’t even like large and confident parties.

            • weka 4.1.2.2.1.1
              27 November 2016 at 11:31 am

              Oh ffs again. Legget is considering standing for National. So unless you think that Labour should be so broad as to also be National, you’re spouting a self-serving, the centre is god mythology that isn’t born out by what is happening in the world.

              “They’ve already ditched ‘Labour’ and replaced it with ‘Labour+Greens’ and expect to appeal to non-voters who don’t even like large and confident parties.”

              Telling lies this early on a Sunday Pete, really. (that or you simply don’t understand the MoU and what it means).

              • Pete George …
                27 November 2016 at 11:45 am

                National and Labour are not mutually exclusive, as has been pointed out here many times. There’s quite an overlap in the centre and has been for a long time.

                And get stuffed with your accusing me of lying just because you happen to disagree. Try arguing on the issue, if you have an argument.

                • One Anonymous Bloke …
                  27 November 2016 at 11:48 am

                  🙄

                  So you don’t understand the MOU or what it means. It’s more charitable to assume you’re a liar instead.

                  • Pete George …
                    27 November 2016 at 11:50 am

                    No, you keep calling anyone a liar you try and set up for weka to ban.

                    Can you clearly explain what the MoU means to the Greens, and to Labour?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      27 November 2016 at 11:57 am

                      Poor little martyr battles evil conspiracy 🙄

                      Have you even read the MOU (pdf)? I doubt it, because it’s written in plain English.

                      Which particular clause or clauses are you incapable of grasping?

                    • Pete George …
                      27 November 2016 at 12:14 pm

                      Yes, I’ve read it, it’s so vague that you can’t clearly explain it.

                      It appears to mean that Greens and Labour are open to building relationships with other parties, people and organisations that share their goal but recognise that is a decision for themselves.

                      Unless Greens and Labour have decided they are from the Maori Party, the Mana Party, or are amongst the 15% of voters who have previously voted for Labour or Greens, but have now been deemed to be RWNJs?

                    • Pete George …
                      27 November 2016 at 12:18 pm

                      3 b) has some points you could learn something from, if you understand it.

                      “We support each other’s right to express alternate views”. And “we agree to articulate differences in a collegial and respectful manner”.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      27 November 2016 at 12:20 pm

                      Incapacity it is then.

                    • weka …
                      27 November 2016 at 12:58 pm

                      Wilful ignorance.

                      At least we have this though. PG has just admitted he doesn’t understand the MoU, which makes his original statement about Labour having ditched Labour and is not L+G a confirmed idiocy.

                    • Pete George …
                      27 November 2016 at 3:24 pm

                      I didn’t admit I don’t understand the MoU. I said it appears to be too vague for OAB to explain it, but OAB seems to rarely try and explain anything, they seem more intent on playing dirty.

                      The way Labour and Greens have worked with each other and not worked with each other suggests to me that it isn’t a hard and fast agreement, it is simply a general understanding that they will try and work together better until the election to present a Labour+Green alternative to voters and to defeat National.

                      Can you explain what the MoU means to you weka?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      27 November 2016 at 3:56 pm

                      Meanwhile, on Earth, I encouraged this dishonest bore to explain which clauses he can’t understand. It’s written in plain English. Instead, the lying troll puts words in my mouth.

                      It’s because he’s an astroturfing waste of bandwidth.

                      There’s nothing vague about agreeing to work together in Parliament and select committees, for example, unless you’re a lying trolling petty poison-pen.

                      There’s nothing vague about “no surprises”, unless you are pretending to be an illiterate idiot to advance your ongoing unoriginal repetition of right wing smears.

                      There’s nothing vague about monthly meetings, unless you have no original thoughts of your own and a list of right wing memes to faithfully copy.

                      No wonder people 🙄 whenever his latest ban expires.

                    • Pete George …
                      27 November 2016 at 4:02 pm

                      It’s vague where it’s most critical – what Labour and Greens might do after the election.

                      The MoU seems to be an attempted con, selling Labour+Greens as a viable alternative to National (Labour having conceded they can’t go head to head with National any more) but with no indication what the end coalition would look like.

                      That’s been Winston’s trick in the past (and still is, the ‘wait until the voters decide’ trick, but the voters don’t know what to base their decision on).

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      27 November 2016 at 4:13 pm

                      More venomous lies then.

                      No concession from Labour: a recidivist liar made it up.

                      No “attempted con” either – the MOU means exactly what it says. Unless you’re determined to bad-mouth the parties in question, that is. Because you’re motivated by hate.

                      Yes: the reason Petty George runs these plagiarised lies is pure and simple: malice, and a desperate cry for attention.

                    • weka …
                      27 November 2016 at 4:59 pm

                      The comparison with NZF is a lie too, because unlike Peters, L and the G are being very up front about who they will do deals with post-election.

                      Can’t really fault the rest of your assessments OAB, although I would say the nasty comes from fear of the left and wanting to consolidate power in the centre because that’s the only place he can tolerate.

                      No, Pete, I’m not going to tell you how I understand the MoU, because you are a troll who looks intent on running attack lines against the left.

                    • Pete George …
                      27 November 2016 at 5:23 pm

                      “L and the G are being very up front about who they will do deals with post-election.”

                      The wording of the MOU implies it will run only until the election and it is not being presented as a coalition deal.

                      Asked about NZ First’s role Little said: “We both agree this is not a monogamous relationship.”

                      He would welcome any other party committed to changing the government and advancing progressive policies.

                      But he refused to say whether he would leave the Greens out in the cold and form a government with NZ First if it had the numbers and its leader Winston Peters insisted.

                      http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/80592598/labour-and-green-leaders-announce-closer-cooperation-agreement

                      That doesn’t look up front to me.

                      Can you show where Labour or Greens have been up front about what they would do after the election?

                    • weka …
                      27 November 2016 at 5:29 pm

                      “That doesn’t look up front to me.”

                      Yes, we’ve already established you either have no idea what is going on or are lying.

                      I”m not going to show you anything because you are a troll.

                      Labour and the Greens were explicit that the MoU lasted until the election and that any coalition deals would be negotiated after the election. And they’ve also been explicit that they are willing to work together in government. And they’ve also been explicit that they’re not guaranteeing that, because obviously how the voting goes will have a big impact on who gets to form govt. Duh.

                      Only a fucking idiot* would criticise them for not having a coalition deal 12 months out from an election.

                      *or troll, and round and round we go.

                    • Pete George …
                      27 November 2016 at 6:02 pm

                      I haven’t seen anyone say they should have a coalition deal before the election. No one does that, it would be absurd to even suggest it.

                      Yes Labour and Greens have indicated they would work together in Government – maybe. Greens will almost certainly need Labour if they still won’t work in government with National.

                      But Andrew Little wouldn’t rule out jilting the Greens and doing a deal with Winston if that allowed him to form a government.

                    • weka …
                      27 November 2016 at 6:07 pm

                      🙄

                      Only you needed half a day to state the bleeding obvious. You just prefer to lie and smear along the way.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      27 November 2016 at 6:47 pm

                      Even this “statement of the bleeding obvious” is barbed with Petty’s feeble smears – “jilting” – seriously? Is Petty George in fact a teenage fashion victim with a very unfortunate skin condition?

            • Paul 4.1.2.2.1.2
              27 November 2016 at 1:28 pm

              Blairites.
              Power for power’s sake.
              Haven’t you learnt from Brexit and Trump yet?

        • Ad 4.1.2.3
          27 November 2016 at 5:57 pm

          I think it would be more useful for New Zealand if Labour and National just went into a long-term coalition. Spare me the tedium of another election.

          National under Key have hardly cracked down on social welfare as they have done, accelerated resolution of Maori issues, retained all the Helen Clark government’s innovations and in some places improved them, plus the earthquakes and Auckland’s needs have simply forced Key to become more and more Keynesian as he stays on.

          Whereas Labour in policy terms are about the same as when Helen Clark left – even dumping the 90 day fire at will clause was beyond fighting.

          Sure, there’s lots to differ on, but it’s too small and country, and our politics overall now too centrist.

          Labour and National’s caucuses should simply get together over Christmas, share a good long bong session, and move in together.

          We’ve been waiting for a long-term compact that would steady the country and push it along harder. Well, Labour and National, do it.

        • Anne 4.1.2.4
          27 November 2016 at 6:24 pm

          @ Petey boy:
          Leggett, Pagani and Quin are dispensable. No-one in the LP has shed any tears at their loss Pete dear. Labour has not been so unified since the departure of these trouble makers, but we know that is all a bit hard for someone like you to comprehend.

          • Pete George 4.1.2.4.1
            27 November 2016 at 6:33 pm

            Unified at 28% support compared to National on 50% (Greens 11%, NZF 10% in the latest Colmar Brunton poll). Labour+Greens are 11% behind.

            I guess those left in Labour can rejoice in their unity.

            • weka 4.1.2.4.1.1
              27 November 2016 at 6:44 pm

              Pete thinks effect = cause. Nothing else has happened since Clark to drop Labour’s vote.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.2.4.1.2
              27 November 2016 at 7:03 pm

              And there it is: Petty’s concern trolling at it’s maximum strength: point two on the Richter scale.

        • Red Hand 4.1.2.5
          27 November 2016 at 8:30 pm

          “picky about who they approve as left wing enough”. Right wing is not acting to improve housing, not lifting incomes, not making sure schools and public hospitals are properly funded,

      • The Chairman 4.1.3
        27 November 2016 at 2:17 pm

        @Anne

        James thinks Leggett saying Labour are anti immigration and anti free trade is going to win-over voters.

        Like Leggett, he’s out of touch.

        http://www.newshub.co.nz/politics/poll-kiwis-want-to-cut-immigration-2016080915

        http://www.newshub.co.nz/nznews/kiwis-still-to-be-convinced-on-tpp-2015112017

    • Morrissey 4.2
      27 November 2016 at 12:13 pm

      A scab is someone who betrays his or her fellow workers. Nick Leggett has never violated a strike, to my knowledge, so of course Andrew Little would not call him a scab.

      Your comment is ignorant.

  5. Colonial Viper 5
    27 November 2016 at 10:10 am

    Dr Paul Craig Roberts, former Reagan White House official, talks about the state of Anglo-US imperial activities with regards to Syria, Russia and other hot spots around the world.

    ‘The west is about to devour itself.’

    An excellent talk.

    • Peter Swift 5.1
      27 November 2016 at 10:37 am

      Russia:
      Gangster state led by a KGB dictator where political opponents and non compliant journalists just disappear, get murdered or are jailed.

      Initiates an aggressive expansionist policy, which threatens several independent sovereign nation states on it’s borders who commit to and view western Europe as their ally, as is their given right.

      Sanctions and tactical slashing of oil prices hit the bank balance of Putin and his crony pet pussy cats, and faced with diminishing wealth, and above all, dents to his ruskie male chauvinist ego, he sets in motion a plan to destabilize.

      During the Arab spring, in Syria, instead of supporting the popular people led call for regime change he frustrated attempts in order to protect his energy deals and local influence, which in turn caused the vacuum in which isil filled and has led to propping up a barrel bombing, chlorine gas using murderer who because of this has no hope of ever running a united country, ever, no matter how many hospitals or aid convoys the Russian military can target and destroy.

      Best you stick your “anglo-US imperial activities with regards to Syria, Russia and other hot spots around the world” up your agenda motivated cossack.

      • Colonial Viper 5.1.1
        27 November 2016 at 10:51 am

        A perfect summary of false smear focused Anglo-US centric imperial propaganda, thank you.

        By the way, do you not understand that Russophobic PR, economic sanctions against Russia and undermining the oil price has finally successfully forced Russia to diversify its economy.

        It has become more self reliant on localised manufacturing and technology, accelerate its military modernisation and to seek new ties to India, China and South East Asia.

        • Peter Swift 5.1.1.1
          27 November 2016 at 10:58 am

          “By the way” lmfao

          Who you spin and shill for and why you’ve accepted the mission is your call, but don’t expect all the people all the time to be as dimwitted and gullible as you’ll need them to be to have your version of history regarded as fact. There just isn’t enough RT propaganda around to do it.

          So yeah, insert your “false smear focused Anglo-US centric imperial propaganda” up your swollen Gorky.

          • Paul 5.1.1.1.1
            27 November 2016 at 1:30 pm

            You still believe the corporate media after ‘weapons of mass destruction.’
            You are either a fool or a shill.

        • Psycho Milt 5.1.1.2
          27 November 2016 at 11:01 am

          By the way, do you not understand that Russophobic PR, economic sanctions against Russia and undermining the oil price has finally successfully forced Russia to diversify its economy.

          Most of us don’t need “Russophobic PR” to tell us that an authoritarian right-wing kleptocracy in charge a huge military isn’t a good thing. Also, it’s superfluous to say “Russia” has been forced to diversify “its” economy, as though it had some kind of representative democracy running it. Putin and his cronies have been forced to diversify their economy – no need for euphemisms.

          • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.2.1
            27 November 2016 at 11:17 am

            You have to recognise that other countries, not just ours, have legitimate national and security interests. With NATO moving more and more forces and bases to within 100km of Russian borders, of course Russia will respond accordingly.

            Russia runs a managed democracy just like the USA does, though of course not managed in the same way.

            However, Putin has far higher public approval and favourability ratings than either Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump – neither of whom the American people would choose if they had a true choice.

            In contrast, most Russians would far more enthusiastically vote for Vladimir Putin.

            • Peter Swift 5.1.1.2.1.1
              27 November 2016 at 11:22 am

              Kool-aidski for sale. Who will by my lovely Kool-aidski? Someone please drink the Kool-aidski lol

            • Psycho Milt 5.1.1.2.1.2
              27 November 2016 at 11:41 am

              Russia runs a managed democracy just like the USA does, though of course not managed in the same way.

              “…not managed in the same way.” Ah, yes – let’s draw a discreet false-equivalence veil over the hugely consequential difference between an actual democracy and a pretend one, because… well, damned if I know why you do it, unless you’re a right-wing authoritarian yourself.

              • Colonial Viper …
                27 November 2016 at 12:34 pm

                Putin is popular electorally based on his results and his leadership. From failed oligarchic state to prosperous re-emerging super power in under 20 years.

                Having said that most Russians do seem to think that the machinery of their government remains bureaucratic, slow and inevitably corrupt to one degree or another.

                • Psycho Milt …
                  27 November 2016 at 3:55 pm

                  Putin is popular electorally based on his results and his leadership.

                  So was Hitler. Which I mention not to compare Putin to Hitler, just to illustrate that a leader’s popularity or lack of it says nothing useful about quality of governance. As a general rule, Big Brother making the trains run on time isn’t a substitute for rule of law, separation of powers, press freedom and a functioning democracy.

                  • Colonial Viper …
                    27 November 2016 at 4:29 pm

                    Every western country is deteriorating in each one of those counts, while Russia is getting its act together.

                    Especially compared to the 1990s. When a disastrous US engineered post-Soviet collapse put Russia in the hands of a dozen hand picked oligarchs loyal to foreign powers and criminal ethnic mafias causing havoc in local communities.

                    And the Russian people credit Putin for putting that disintegrating chaotic country back together.

                    One more point. I’m quietly confident that the rest of the world has had quite enough of western colonialists trying to tell them how to behave and how to run government.

                    Especially given the incompetent rigged display of a US democratic debacle this year.

                    • Macro …
                      27 November 2016 at 4:45 pm

                      When I was a teenager my day would be given a magazine smuggled out of Czechoslovakia by one of his friends who was a communist. I remember it well, for it contained wonderful descriptions of the superb life the people there enjoyed under the Russian rule. Of course it was all bull shit.
                      RT delivers much the same now.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      27 November 2016 at 5:06 pm

                      You know Macro, I tire of old cold war types and old cold war stereotypes.

                      If you can’t understand that Putin’s Russia is a completely different nation to Yeltsin’s Russia, which was completely different to the Soviet Union which was a completely different nation to Tsarist Russia, there is no way that you can make sensible judgements on important issues to do with that nation.

                      Anyway for a laugh, here is Steven Seagal receiving his Russian citizenship from Putin this week.

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      27 November 2016 at 5:34 pm

                      Every western country is deteriorating in each one of those counts, while Russia is getting its act together.

                      I’m not sure what you mean by “getting its act together,” since Russia is deteriorating on all those counts a lot faster than any western democracy and from a much lower base.

                      …western colonialists…

                      Just for giggles, how do you think the Russian Federation got to be the size it is today? And why do you think it considers various of its neighbours to be part of its “sphere of influence?”

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      27 November 2016 at 5:37 pm

                      If Russia really is falling apart as you say, then the Anglo-US empire just needs to wait it out.

                    • marty mars …
                      27 November 2016 at 6:02 pm

                      falling apart – ha! the 5 year plan is well above target, everyone is happy and well fed and everyone love vlad oh yes that is the truth I am not being forced to say this…

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      27 November 2016 at 9:23 pm

                      If Russia really is falling apart as you say…

                      As I said where? The Russian Federation isn’t falling apart. Russia could continue to deteriorate on those good governance measures to the point where it’s one of the shittiest countries in the world and still not fall apart – in fact, it’s already done that once, as the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Putin’s got a long way to go before he could even aspire to the same league as earlier Russian efforts at bad governance.

        • Red Hand 5.1.1.3
          27 November 2016 at 8:47 pm

          It’s what Russia always needed, to get out more and smell the roses. Anglo-US centric imperial propaganda aside. Who do think Russia’s new ties with India, China and South East Asia will really benefit ?

          • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.3.1
            27 November 2016 at 8:57 pm

            Mostly the 50%-60% of the world’s population living right there.

            This is an Eurasian 21st Century.

            Marked by the return of the old civilisations of the world: Russia 1100 years old, China 3000+ years old, India 3000+ years old, Persia 2500+ years old.

            NZ, while remaining aligned with our strong US-Anglo roots, has to realise that we have to be flexible and adaptable to the change at hand.

      • Morrissey 5.1.2
        27 November 2016 at 12:16 pm

        You really embarrass yourself every time you come on this messageboard. I cannot imagine you spouting such ignorant comments in any half sane work place, so the question arises: Are you a radio talkback host?

        • Peter Swift 5.1.2.1
          27 November 2016 at 12:25 pm

          You use that ‘you embarrass yourself’ line a lot and, in context, it doesn’t bother me a bit what you think. I can easily live with your fragility.
          I’m not the one whose been stalking a radio show for years and years. lol

          • Paul 5.1.2.1.1
            27 November 2016 at 1:33 pm

            But you clearly are not in any way informed on this matter.
            Do you read widely on the issue or is ZB your one source on this matter?

    • Ad 5.2
      27 November 2016 at 11:11 am

      Thanks CV. It was a good listen.

  6. Draco T Bastard 6
    27 November 2016 at 10:25 am

    The RWNJs go on about the oppression of the USSR, China, DPRK etc and then they go round doing this sort of shit:

    Last week, the U.K.’s Parliament approved the Investigatory Powers Bill, dubbed the “Snoopers’ Charter” by critics. The law, which is expected to come into force before the end of the year, was introduced in November 2015 after the fallout from revelations by National Security Agency whistleblower Edward Snowden about extensive British mass surveillance. The Investigatory Powers Bill essentially retroactively legalizes the electronic spying programs exposed in the Snowden documents — and also expands some of the government’s surveillance powers.

    And then they wonder why we compare them to Hitler and Stalin.

    • Colonial Viper 6.1
      27 November 2016 at 10:39 am

      As Paul Craig Roberts states, the few countries left with independent foreign and monetary policies (Iran, Syria, Russia, China, and formerly Libya and Iraq) must be demonised and destabilised.

      But you get a total pass if you are a co-operative part of the Anglo-US empire.

  7. save nz 7
    27 November 2016 at 11:01 am

    Big business bristles at possible $86m tax crackdown (from Granny Herald)

    “Green Party co-leader James Shaw said the delays made it seem that Inland Revenue had double standards in tax enforcement.

    “What it looks like is the Government is sending in metaphorical SWAT teams to catch beneficiaries and student loan borrowers, while they’re letting [large taxpayers] not pay millions of dollars in taxes, year after year,” he said.

    Labour finance spokesman Grant Robertson said Woodhouse “needs to decide whose side he’s on. Is he on the side of working New Zealanders who pay their PAYE every week and do the right thing, or is he on the side of companies who seek to limit their tax paid in New Zealand?”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11754352

    • save nz 7.1
      27 November 2016 at 12:09 pm

      On a similar note from Bernard Hickey (also on Granny Herald)

      “The default position for many now is to distrust apparently rootless multinational companies who have played countries off against each other to reduce their tax bills and generate ever-bigger profits for their equally rootless investors.

      Prime Minister John Key has his ear close to the ground and this week he told Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg to win back the trust of the globalised masses by paying its taxes.

      “I think if they don’t, the same people who are its users will wake up one day and say, ‘Why do I have to pay my tax if this company is not going to?'” Key said.

      It’s a bit late for that now. People are wide awake. Key hopes the social contract supporting globalisation here can be repaired with a few tweaks and some good PR.

      The trouble is globalisation is global. It only works when everyone globally believes in that social contract, and that is broken.”

  8. save nz 8
    27 November 2016 at 11:09 am

    More profiteering on apartments – so helpful for first home buyers (sarc) (from Granny herald)

    “At the St James Suites planned for Queen St, a buyer who in 2014 signed a contract to pay $775,000 was stunned last week when that figure escalated to $999,000 for exactly the same two-bedroom place.

    Across in Takapuna, one buyer at The Sargeson apartment project told how the price of a unit was rising from $465,000 to $535,000, while at Rose Gardens Apartments in Albany, where work is well advanced, buyers were being asked for 15 per cent more.

    Rising construction costs, funding cost hikes and difficulty getting access to funding are some of the issues being mentioned in letters sent to buyers, citing clauses which allow changes, offering to cancel and pay interest on deposits.

    Auckland apartment developer Marty Kells said some overseas players were ratcheting up unit prices.”

    • Ad 8.1
      27 November 2016 at 11:15 am

      Those developers are getting screwed by the materials suppliers; in particular Fletchers and its subsidiaries in cement, steel, hardware, and wood.
      They are also having their construction workers sucked away by the big public sector infrastructure jobs.

      While interest rates stay low, immigration goes high, and demand for housing continues to climb and climb, prices will continue to escalate by the month.

    • weka 8.2
      27 November 2016 at 11:26 am

      What Ad said. As far as I can tell, “Rising construction costs” = the rort that exists within the materials supply chain.

      • save nz 8.2.1
        27 November 2016 at 11:40 am

        I heard that the cost per m2 of building has gone up some astronomical amount this year. I tried to find the article but it’s disappeared.

        It’s also not the cost of new builds effected, but the costs of upgrading older houses too (aka rentals).

        The cost of wool, timber and steel all the raw materials that we produce seem to be rising…

        • Ad 8.2.1.1
          27 November 2016 at 5:12 pm

          Materials are run by the duopoly. Which is bad.

          What is the killer is shortage of staff and hence labour rates going through the roof.

          • KJT 8.2.1.1.1
            27 November 2016 at 6:08 pm

            Labour rates are about 20% more than when i was building. Hardly through the roof.
            Materials, however, have more than doubled.

            • save nz 8.2.1.1.1.1
              27 November 2016 at 6:17 pm

              Also it is not just ‘bodies on the build’ – it is the level of building skills that’s lacking – they should never have taken away the apprentices and so forth.

              But I think the main factor going up is materials not labour. But MSM does not talk about that as nobody is lobbying for cheaper materials and investigations into building monopolies and price fixing.

              It seems that there is price fixing going on at all the major building firms. As soon as one puts up the prices the rest follow.

  9. weka 9
    27 November 2016 at 1:02 pm

    The Army Corps of Engineers has issued an eviction notice to one of the Standing Rock camps (which is on Indian land, but the govt think it’s theirs). They’re meant to leave by 5th Dec. As far as I can tell the camp is continuing to build in prep for winter.

    This impressive rant from a US Navy Vet on what’s going down,

    https://www.facebook.com/kashjackson2016/videos/573518852854067/

    • Colonial Viper 9.1
      27 November 2016 at 1:22 pm

      Hmmm saw this decision come out last night. The Commander and Chief Barack Obama could of course rescind this order with a phone call. I hope he does.

  10. joe90 10
    27 November 2016 at 3:17 pm

    Was Trump lying then, or is he lying now?.

    /
    In his meetings, Flynn is said to have claimed Trump’s controversial campaign-trail remarks were merely part of the rhetoric needed to secure an election win, according to informed sources. His actual policies after taking office would be different from what he said to galvanize his support base, Flynn predicted.

    http://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Economy/International-Relations/Trump-adviser-meeting-pays-off-for-Suga?

  11. swordfish 11
    27 November 2016 at 4:17 pm

    The revenge of ‘the Oxy electorate’ helped fuel Trump’s election upset

    http://normanfinkelstein.com/2016/11/25/why-the-deplorables-voted-for-trump/

    … Frydl too saw the Trump win in such areas as a vote against the status quo in the same way that a vote for Obama was in 2008. In that way, she thinks Trump’s upset is a “de facto” judgment on Obama’s failure to be the “change agent” many thought they were voting for.

    “The people in Pennsylvania, Ohio, and the steel belt that voted for Trump were aware that the steel mills closed in 1983,” she said. “They were aware of that in 2012 when they voted for Obama. There is something specific to the opioid crisis in the last four years that is a social policy failure that deserves to be treated as discrete.”

    Frydl, who has written a history of the drug war in America, believes that the Obama administration’s response to the opioid crisis signaled to many addiction-ravaged areas that “their suffering was not registering with the Democratic Party establishment.” …

    … After decades of systemic economic decline and the government’s failure to address the subsequent public-health crisis, Trump’s outsider campaign was perfectly primed to capitalize on the so-called Oxy electorate’s fears about foreign influence and loss of status.

    • Colonial Viper 11.1
      27 November 2016 at 4:33 pm

      Every time Trump turned up in New Hampshire he would talk about stopping drugs coming in from Mexico, he would talk about stamping out the heroin/opioid problem, he would talk about getting addicts proper treatment and making sure they get better and that they could get good jobs again, he would meet with public officials and community groups dealing with this problem.

  12. Draco T Bastard 12
    27 November 2016 at 6:49 pm

    Jo Cox’s murder was followed by 50,000 tweets celebrating her death

    More than 50,000 abusive and offensive tweets were sent celebrating Labour MP Jo Cox’s murder and lauding her killer, Thomas Mair, as a “hero” or “patriot” in the month following her death, prompting calls for the government to do more to tackle hate speech online.

    It’s a difficult line to draw but there has to be some limits to free-speech. It’s this type of stuff that leads to stuff like this:

    They include the killing of 77 and injuring of 242 people in Norway by Anders Breivik in July 2011 in shooting and bomb attacks fuelled by his rightwing views and belief in the Islamisation of Europe.

  13. Sam C 13
    27 November 2016 at 6:50 pm

    Latest Colmar Brunton poll has Labour at 28% and Andrew Little at 8% as preferred PM. Surely an outlier?

    • One Anonymous Bloke 13.1
      27 November 2016 at 6:56 pm

      If it translates into the voting pattern next year, it will mean more homeless working families and dead children, and you’ll have something to celebrate.

      • Sam C 13.1.1
        27 November 2016 at 7:14 pm

        Just stating the results, OAB. I hope you don’t choke on your own bile.

        These sorts of poll results just confirm that your odious politics of envy type of approach can’t get any traction.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 13.1.1.1
          27 November 2016 at 7:19 pm

          I am not envious of policies that can only achieve economic growth through increasing immigration. Nor do I envy the wealth that goes with crony capitalist corruption: I have enough of my own gained by honest means, thanks.

          If you had a rebuttal to my valid criticism you’d have stated it. Instead you chose to attack me.

          Thanks for conceding my point so quickly. Console yourself with your feelings for Dear Leader.

        • Cinny 13.1.1.2
          27 November 2016 at 7:25 pm

          Polls should be a tool, not a a crutch.

          However, the outgoing PM appears to be on a downward spiral.

          • Sam C 13.1.1.2.1
            27 November 2016 at 7:40 pm

            Yep. 36% vs 8% for Andy.

            I’m sure the PM will be battling to sleep a wink tonight.

            Cue the line about whoever is oppo always having single figure favourability numbers.

    • Roflcopter 13.2
      27 November 2016 at 7:13 pm

      It can’t be an outlier, OAB is even more stupid than usual.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 13.2.1
        27 November 2016 at 7:25 pm

        Even a complete thicky like me can spot the connection between the National Party and preventable infectious diseases.

        Don’t worry, the market will provide for the first time in history: magical thinking is the answer.

        • Sam C 13.2.1.1
          27 November 2016 at 7:34 pm

          Well, I suppose the polls were wrong about Trump, so there may be hope for you yet.

          50% playing 28% does seem a tad unfair though.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 13.2.1.1.1
            27 November 2016 at 7:38 pm

            In fact, 28+10+11=49.

            It’s nice that you tried to pretend MMP still exists though. It demonstrates that you are either dishonest or stupid.

            I’m going to be charitable and assume you’re dishonest

            • Sam C 13.2.1.1.1.1
              27 November 2016 at 7:44 pm

              The last time I checked, MMP does still exist.

              28+10+11=49. Go Einstein. And the Nats are on 50 in the latest poll.

              You’ve gone full retard OAB.

            • Hum 13.2.1.1.1.2
              28 November 2016 at 11:35 am

              If you think Winston will join a govt with the Greens you need your head read

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                28 November 2016 at 1:11 pm

                Pragmatically speaking that would lead to a Labour/NZF government with the Greens providing confidence and supply. However, I note that you seem much more confident in your opinion of what Winston will or won’t do than I am, so perhaps it is you who needs your head read.

    • BM 13.3
      27 November 2016 at 7:27 pm

      I’d be surprised if National don’t win out right next year.

      Apart from the left being a joke, Key has finally realised the jokey jokey stuff with the media isn’t the best idea as he loses control of the narrative so has peeled that right back.

      From now on the message will be Key the dependable, the guy you can rely on etc, Angry boy really doesn’t have a chance, if he was honest the best thing he could do is throw the towel in now and save the country quite a few million.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 13.3.1
        27 November 2016 at 7:35 pm

        Quavering wet says Dear Leader can’t control the narrative.

        • BM 13.3.1.1
          27 November 2016 at 7:40 pm

          Keys biggest weakness, far too trusting.

          After the soap rape debacle he’s finally realised certain sectors of the media really aren’t his friend and he shouldn’t waste his time with them.

          He’s going to be near on impossible to beat next year, tough times being a leftie that’s foe sure.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 13.3.1.1.1
            27 November 2016 at 7:42 pm

            Not as tough as being a child in a homeless working family. I’m sure he’ll cope somehow. Avoid any substantive long-form interviews is my advice.

            It won’t help him though.

            • Blade 13.3.1.1.1.1
              27 November 2016 at 8:11 pm

              Hey, OAB. Is it true you have hired Dr Death to relieve you of your miserable existence after the next election is won by National? I say that because you seem to be an abusive prick who is exempt from moderation and offers little to a debate. You also make a mockery of the good behaviour rule for this thread. Or doesn’t that apply to you?

          • Cinny 13.3.1.1.2
            27 November 2016 at 8:01 pm

            I heard he doesn’t trust the treasury, well at least not all their figures, he only trusts the figures that paints the outgoing government in a positive light. As demonstrated on the Nation yesterday morning.
            http://www.newshub.co.nz/tvshows/thenation/interview-john-key-2016112611

            BM why is Keys popularity on a downward trend?

            • BM 13.3.1.1.2.1
              27 November 2016 at 8:29 pm

              He’s been around a long time, still light years in front of David Little though.

              • Cinny …
                27 November 2016 at 8:50 pm

                BM you believe that Keys popularity has been dropping because he has been around for too long?
                I do agree with you, he has been around for way to long

      • Cinny 13.3.2
        27 November 2016 at 7:38 pm

        Outgoing PMs popularity is trending downwards and has been for some time. JS

        Arrogance does not keep a government in power, Northland springs to mind, and if the current government was any good (popular) they would be able to take Mt Roskill, but they won’t because they aren’t.

        Don’t rely on the polls, Brexit and Trump should have taught everyone that lesson by now.

        But hey if all you want to do is gloat, then gloat away, makes you look foolish considering the information I’ve just provided.

        Much love. Cinny x

        • BM 13.3.2.1
          27 November 2016 at 7:42 pm

          If those thoughts keep you from dissolving into a weeping suicidal mess, I’m not going to burst your bubble.

          Yeah, that David Little, he’s going to be PM and it’s going to be amazing.

          • Cinny 13.3.2.1.1
            27 November 2016 at 7:56 pm

            Dude, don’t make fun of suicide, the stats in our country are naught to be proud of, thanks to the current government, taking ones own life has never been more popular.

          • mauī 13.3.2.1.2
            27 November 2016 at 8:46 pm

            What a douche.

        • Sam C 13.3.2.2
          27 November 2016 at 7:57 pm

          You haven’t provided information, you’ve provided a completely subjective rant.

          You must be an MSM journalist!

            • swordfish 13.3.2.2.1.1
              27 November 2016 at 9:27 pm

              Colmar Brunton Polls: Key – Preferred PM

              2016

              Nov 36%
              Sep 38%
              May 39%
              April 39%
              Feb 40%

              2015

              0ct 40%
              Sep 40%
              July 40%
              May 44%
              April 42%
              Feb 41%

              2014

              Sep (late) 43%
              Sep (mid) 46%
              Sep (early) 48%

              • Pat …
                27 November 2016 at 9:44 pm

                looking like a trend

              • swordfish …
                27 November 2016 at 9:48 pm

                For a rough comparison with previous years …

                From my comment here in April 2016

                Preferred PM Averages – John Key
                (Colmar Brunton / Reid Research – combined)

                …………………………Average……………High……….Compare 2/2 2015-16
                2/2 2015-16………..39………………………40…………………………..-
                1/1 2015……………..42………………………44…………………..Down 3 Points
                2014…………………. 45………………………48……………………Down 6 Points
                2013…………………..41………………………44……………………Down 2 Points
                2012…………………..43………………………48……………………Down 4 Points
                2011…………………..53………………………59……………………Down 14 Points
                2010…………………..49………………………54……………………Down 10 Points
                2009…………………..52………………………56……………………Down 13 Points

                • swordfish …
                  27 November 2016 at 10:19 pm

                  Key’s Colmar Brunton / Reid Research – combined average is now just under 38% (for 2016)

                  So he’s Down 15 points on 2011,
                  11 points on 2010
                  and 14 points on 2009

                  His 2/2 of 2016 combined average is now just under 37%

                  In reality, he’s probably down a little more than that. Key is usually slightly weaker in the Reid Research polls. And an unusually small number of RR polls have been carried out this year (2 to Colmar Brunton’s 5). Usually these 2 Pollsters conduct roughly the same number of polls each year.

                  • Colonial Viper …
                    27 November 2016 at 10:40 pm

                    Let me ask you a question, swordfish.

                    Based off what Kellyanne Conway, Trump’s campaign manager, said about Hillary Clinton’s popularity.

                    Does Labour’s polling appear to be benefitting from Key’s weakening ratings relative to 2011?

                    Or is Labour’s polling still demonstrating a polling ceiling (that I would place at roughly 28% to 30%) which it cannot seem to break through and stay through, even as Key’s support declines?

                    And finally – is Little’s numbers going up as Key’s numbers over the last 2 years has been going down?

                    • swordfish …
                      27 November 2016 at 11:14 pm

                      (1) Nyet !!!

                      (2) Da (although has occassionally broken through to 32/33% over last 2 years)

                      (3) Nyet !!!

                      You’re quite right, of course, CV. I should point out here that I was simply backing up Cinny’s broad point – largely with a view to irritating our regular Tory chums.

                      Still looking just a teensy weensy weensy weensy bit grim for Labour and the Left at this juncture.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      27 November 2016 at 11:35 pm

                      Aaaaah thanks swordfish. That was my gut feeling.

                      Kellyanne Conway, who also runs her own polling organisation, said that they noticed every time their candidate Trump got hit hard with a new media revelation his poll numbers would briefly dip.

                      But those dips almost never translated into boosts for Hillary Clinton who they saw had a pretty hard polling ceiling of 45% to 46%.

                      So they knew that she was vulnerable to undecideds and wouldn’t tells moving against her.

                    • McFlock …
                      28 November 2016 at 12:31 am

                      The big difference is that while Key’s a bit of a dick who harms the country, he’s not quite the same level of racist fascist imbecilic fraudster who makes voters voters ashamed to admit what they intend to do in a secret ballot.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      28 November 2016 at 12:39 am

                      Undercover Trump voters had had enough of nasty lefty bullyshaming and condescension.

                      Bullyshaming and condescension that you still think is quite righteous and justifiable, by the sounds of it.

                    • McFlock …
                      28 November 2016 at 1:18 pm

                      Undercover trump voters were cowards who knew that they were supporting a fascist idiot and did it anyway.

                      At least the “red meat” deplorables baying for blood were too dumb to realise how contemptable they were.

                  • Cinny …
                    28 November 2016 at 6:42 am

                    Thanks SwordFish, for all those stats, really really appreciate it big time, you’ve put much work into supplying that info. Cheers.

  14. BM 14
    27 November 2016 at 8:27 pm

    More good news for NZ

    For the fourth consecutive year, Telegraph Travel readers named New Zealand their favourite country.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/telegraph-travel-awards-2015-16-winners/