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Open Mike 28/01/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, January 28th, 2018 - 113 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

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Step up to the mike …

113 comments on “Open Mike 28/01/2018”

  1. One Anonymous Bloke 1

    The man problem.

    New Zealand Cricket public affairs manager Richard Boock said 10-20 patrons were ejected from the Basin Reserve for a number of reasons, including “offensive language or behaviour, intoxication, and bringing contraband into the venue.

    I think the solution to the man problem starts with trespass notices. We can already prosecute the assaults they commit, and that hasn’t worked. So, on top of proecutions for assault, ban them from all sporting venues, whether public or private, by court order, for say, twenty years. If they want to go and see their children play, perhaps the Police can issue special licenses for good behaviour.

    Not really fair blaming the security guard for “losing control” where no control existed in the first place. At least they weren’t selling glitter /sarc.

    • Ed 1.1

      From the article

      “The 39-year-old was sitting on the Wellington venue’s grassy bank with her girlfriend, among a group of 100 or so men, who were mostly drunk and aged in their 30s and 40s. She said the men were chanting obscenities, skolling beer and harassing the Pakistani cricketers.”

      Mostly in their 30s and 40s.
      Racist
      Sexist
      Drunk

      “ a pack of dogs.”

      Now let’s look at our sports broadcasters and the message they convey, the laddish, sexist message they put out.

      Veitch
      Devlin

      • One Anonymous Bloke 1.1.1

        All two of them?

        You didn’t blame the music industry when the man problem occurred at Rhythm and Vines. It also happens on the streets. Do you blame NZTA for that? How about when it happens in homes?

        The point is the man problem has one thing in common and it isn’t the venue.

        • Ed 1.1.1.1

          I agree there are more than two.
          Two of the most notorious just came to mind.

          Yes and the music industry has issues.

          And sport plays to male stereotypes in its marketing thereby making sport a particularly bad place to see this underbelly of NZ culture.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 1.1.1.1.1

            *headdesk*

            Toxic masculinity is a problem. It exists no matter the venue. But hey, try and turn this into one of your pet hate hobbyhorses by all means 🙄

            • Ed 1.1.1.1.1.1

              I am not trying to do that.

            • weka 1.1.1.1.1.2

              You think sports celebs who exhibit and promote toxic masculinity aren’t part of the problem?

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                No, I think they’re a symptom of the problem. Someone has to employ them, and continue their employment (I note this is now a moot point in Veitch’s case). People have to buy advertising on their effluent, consumers have to buy the stuff in the adverts.

                We reward their behaviour. No wonder they feel little incentive to change.

              • Incognito

                Yes, I do, inasmuch as they help to reinforce the problem; they may not be the root cause of it though, if that’s what you’re asking, and indeed be symptomatic.

      • Psycho Milt 1.1.2

        Drunk people do what’s acceptable to their peer group. The only contribution of “drunk” is to make public what’s acceptable to that peer group. So the problem here isn’t that these guys drink, the problem is the shit that’s considered normal in their peer group.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 1.1.2.1

          +1

        • Incognito 1.1.2.2

          Peer pressure or influence is not the only contribution of alcohol consumption to ‘misbehaving’. Drunks misread and misinterpret social cues (e.g. micro-expressions and body language) and even become almost completely unresponsive to any communications from others and the outside world. For example, they misinterpret certain cues (e.g. the simple fact of accidentally making eye contact or just looking in their direction) as disgust or aggression or they think that other cues signal acceptance, encouragement, or invitation even. All this can and does happen without any peer group being present and not always in a ‘social situation’ either. Let the mess start …

        • Ed 1.1.2.3

          I agree.
          And excessive drinking is part of the problem.
          Public intoxication should be discouraged.

          • Psycho Milt 1.1.2.3.1

            Providing a cricket ground is also part of the problem. Should public cricket be discouraged?

            • Ed 1.1.2.3.1.1

              I think alcohol exarcebates the sexist behaviour not cricket.
              But it’s too nice a day to argue.

            • weka 1.1.2.3.1.2

              If people are being assaulted and the organisers can’t stop that then yes, public cricket in that ground should be discouraged. Just as well we have some other options, like limiting the amount of alcohol people consume.

              I agree with the toxic masculinity argument, but before the revolution comes how about we put in some easier to access solutions as well.

              • If people are being assaulted and the organisers aren’t bothering to stop that then something needs to be done about the organisers, not people who drink alcohol.

                Alcohol restrictions are an easy go-to for people who don’t drink, or are anti-alcohol activists to start with, like Ed. I’m not interested in sport, so my immediate knee-jerk response is that this is what sports fans are like so there should be restrictions on sporting events. Ed’s response is no different. Figuring out what problem we’re trying to solve here is a better process than leaping straight to prejudice-based solutions.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                before the revolution comes how about we put in some easier to access solutions as well.

                Cut off the abusers’ access to public events. Half the problem is that they drag impressionable dupes into their orbit: a visceral illustration of the way right wing political beliefs enthral generation after generation.

                Remove the role models from the situation: let them fester at home during the game/gig/Cabinet Club foodfight.

                The culture has to change: in the meantime lets put the needs of the victims (to be free from assault) first.

              • McFlock

                It basically comes down to having enough security staff and giving them clear rules on what is unacceptable behaviour.

                Promotoers want as little security as possible (to save money) before it starts to impact on profits (event cancellation/license issues/pirate recordings). If they don’t have enough staff so everyone is in a zone of control, the staff can’t see what’s going on or aren’t in a position to do anything about it.

                Security staff often just work along the lines of which box a punter should be slotted into: ignore, direct to bogs etc, start ejection process. That covers most of it.

                Frankly in my opinion the way to knobble them is make it an OSH issue. If promoters aren’t providing a safe environment for members of the public, the promoters should be charged. Then you’ll see a complete sea-change in how events are run.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  That scenario sounds ok for large venues. Smaller venues, small-scale promoters, utilising small town security staff, all will be disadvantaged – far better for them to be able to access a register of known problem customers.

                  ..and I don’t much care for the idea of entertainment/hospitality workers maintaining that sort of database.

                  • McFlock

                    Oh, everyone has their own list of barred patrons, and some areas have “blanket bans” where trespassed from one pub means trespassed from them all. Yes, knowing jerks works to some extent, but then there’s always a first offender. And then it comes down to which box you put them in – clear guidance is often needed. I worked a few places back in the day, and they always gave the same security briefing: “hands-off, polite, use your words, it’s a good place and a good crowd, be low key”. Only one place really meant it. Others thought choke holds (not a come-along, an actual throttle) were hands off and low key.

                    But small scale venues are the same as gigs for several thousand people. Actually easier, because you probably have glassies or other staff on the floor as well as security, and they can give you a heads-up (or you can play their role just to let likely lads know you’ve got your eye on them). I’ve worked events and venues from sole-security up to a security team of 30 or 40. So big venue size, but not full stadium level.

                    Some gigs you really couldn’t control anything more than a couple of feet in front of you because of the crowd density, sound and lighting. Basically it was up to the roving folk (or if there was a mezzanine to spot it from a different angle), wade through the punters, grab the nearest static worker for backup and sort it.

                    Calculating the safe number of security staff comes down to access points, then a function of crowd number as what I call the radius of influence shrinks (so crowd number also as in density in venue floor area, not just crowd size).

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      How do local lists of banned patrons make it to organisers of eg: Rhythm & Vines or NZ Cricket? Maybe if they use the same security crew…

                    • McFlock

                      They wouldn’t, because most punters at R&V would be from out of town.

                      In that case they’d be relying on alcohol service enforcement and roving security, mostly.

                      For bigger events, you’re normally exceeding the locally-available supply of regular security staff. Back in my day I worked a cricket match at the ‘brook (just to give the idea of the time lapse) and they had the main contractors for the tour who hired local security staff who also picked up likely locals/folks they knew.

                      At another gig the regular security team was supplemented by a rugby club whom we put on static/numpty positions that needed to be filled but weren’t big on nuance.

                      Regarding R&V, I was surprised the promoter had apparently declined anti-harrassment posters. Those would be an easy way to start the process of gently reminding people there are rules and they are being watched. Additionally, if there was drinking there then there would be empties and litter. And easy thing to do is wander around with a wheelie bin and clean up – speaking with people as you go. It’s relaxed, laid back, but still takes the edge off the “I’m wiv me mates” feedback loop that happens. It’s not an overt “I’ve got my eye on you”, it just reminds folk that other people are around.

                      Of course, normally it’s cheaper just to have the bare minimum security, throw some bins around, and clean up with brooms and shovels after everyone has left.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 1.1.2.4

          When some of my former peer group were sozzled, pretty much anything could be acceptable to them at that time. Hard to predict/control what they might do and the behaviour they might sanction in the moment; a few of them were pretty good at post-booze justifications too.

          • Psycho Milt 1.1.2.4.1

            People tell themselves that, but it’s not actually true. If your peer group doesn’t have any problems with you taking a piss in a shop doorway or picking a fight with someone, you might well do those things when you’re drunk. If your peer group would be horrified by those things and would likely shun you and certainly never drink with you again if you were to do them, you just don’t do stuff like that when drunk. Or, you do and eventually you’re a drunk with no friends. Very few people end up in the latter category.

            You can figure it out for yourself via a handy thought experiment: how drunk would I have to be to shout homophobic abuse at someone, grope a woman, take a shit in a shop doorway or king-hit someone for no reason? The answer should be “There is no level of drunkenness at which I’d do any of those.” If your answer identifies a level of drunkenness at which you’d do any of those things, the problem isn’t alcohol, it’s you.

            • Ed 1.1.2.4.1.1

              Totally agree

            • One Anonymous Bloke 1.1.2.4.1.2

              I have this way of relaxing; it’s called “drinking”. But I always know when I’ve had enough because I fall over, throw up, and hit a policeman.

              Alexei Sayle.

            • One Two 1.1.2.4.1.3

              Or, don’t be drunk…

              Alcohol is a masking agent

              What are you masking?

              What are ‘they’ masking?

              Root cause…

            • Drowsy M. Kram 1.1.2.4.1.4

              I’m not against the use of alcohol and other mood-altering recreational drugs (knock yourself out!), but your peers clearly manage(d) the effects of alcohol on their behaviours and personalities better than the peers of my youth.

              I see behaviour and personality as ‘products’ of the brain, a bioelectrical organ of remarkable complexity nevertheless subject to physicochemical processes. IMO it is magical thinking to contend that alcohol cannot temporarily alter what individuals ‘consider’ to be acceptable behaviour.

              There are very few individuals who can, by training and/or sheer force of will, consciously (ha ha) resist general anaesthesia. Similarly, the mood-altering properties of ethanol are typically quite reliable, contributing to the popularity of the drug.

              We have different experiences regarding the ability of ethanol to temporarily alter a persons judgement and behaviour – I’m happy to agree to disagree about the extent of those effects.

              https://www.nature.com/articles/mp201625

              “Acute and chronic alcohol exposure significantly affect behavior but the underlying neurobiological mechanisms are still poorly understood.”

              https://www.nzma.org.nz/journal/read-the-journal/all-issues/2010-2019/2012/vol-125-no-1360/editorial-sellman

              “As the evidence of alcohol harms accumulates, especially harm to others, we must continue to urge our elected representatives in government to enact effective legislation in order to help reduce these harms, rather than use outdated neoliberal economic models, which result in doing little more than watch from the sidelines.”

    • Rosemary McDonald 1.2

      “I think the solution to the man problem….”

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_castration

      …or what you said. Plus ban ALL alcohol from the venue. (yeah, as if.)

      If nothing else…at the end of the match, I’d lock the gates and not let anyone out until they picked up the bloody rubbish.

      Yes, I know, local junior teams often do the grounds clean up for fundraising, but ffs, its as if the basic rules of decent behaviour completely disappear.

      And its been well over a decade since I went to a cricket match…same as it ever was.

    • Carolyn_Nth 1.3

      The “man problem” goes right to the top in NZ sporting culture.

      So, NZ women’s sevens rugby team are into the final in the tournament in Sydney this arvo. The women’s sevens runs parallel to the men’s.

      Meanwhile, in the upcoming sevens tournament in Hamilton, there will only be a men’s competition.

      As RNZ reports, Natalie Portman does have a point.

      Sport is big in NZ’s dominant culture. And the way it’s dominated by implicit assumptions about masculine superiority is indicative, plus sends messages that can have all kinds of repercussions in the behaviour of men at events.

    • mauī 1.4

      This is what the embankment at the Basin has been like for decades. It starts off with chants targeting businessmen walking past with their ties on – “Get your tie off.. “, then moves onto cat calls and “get your gear off..”

      It’s more an environment thing, 1 against the rest. People walking below a crowd by themselves are easy targets and have no defence, and you only need a couple of instigators and the group will follow along.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 1.4.1

        …so sexual assault is a time-honoured tradition and there’s nothing that can be done about it?

        • Ed 1.4.1.1

          How would you deal with it OAB?
          I have suggested alcohol is a key problem and been abused by you for that?
          What then would you do?

          • One Anonymous Bloke 1.4.1.1.1

            I refer you to comment 1 on open mike, and please attempt to learn to distinguish between criticism of your behaviour and abuse.

            As a guide to what constitutes “abuse”, see the comments I aimed at Chuck yesterday.

  2. james 2

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2018/01/glittery-march-report-a-misunderstanding-organiser-says.html

    Something isnt adding up here – esp when looking at the original quotes.

    Looks like it might be set up to sell photos to tabloids from the original quotes that she now denies.

    • chris73 2.1

      Are you thinking the charity to be suggested will something like Children Adult Support Helpline?

    • Rightly or wrongly 2.2

      It was pretty obvious from the start that it was a set up.

      More fool the msm and various commentators who were frothing at the mouth at the video captured misogyny.

      This sort of fake ‘reality news’ happens for 2 reasons:

      To help assist the maker’s philosophical beliefs or

      To generate publicity and money for the makers.

      In this case I believe the 2nd reason applies.

      It is a shame as it denigrates the cases of genuine abuse which occur and the culprits of which deserve public ridicule.

      • joe90 2.2.1

        it denigrates the cases of genuine abuse

        So the woman who was groped by the vile prick wasn’t genuinely abused?

        • Rightly or wrongly 2.2.1.1

          In the same way actors in a movie who appear to get beaten up aren’t actually beaten up.

          If you arrange for someone to come and ‘grope’ you in order to capture this on video this is a form of implied consent.

          A question for you:
          If this indeed was a case of genuine Indecent Assault (which carries a punishment of 7 years in jail) why has the ‘victim’ not made a complaint to Police?

          She has perfect evidence and it would be a strike of the sisterhood against pawing neanderthals.

          However if it were all fakery then her statement to Police would be false and she might end up in trouble herself but fakery is fine for generating social media publicity.

          Beware, not all that glitters is gold. (Pun intended)

          • joe90 2.2.1.1.1

            Oh, so she arranged someone to come and ‘grope’ her?.

          • Psycho Milt 2.2.1.1.2

            If this indeed was a case of genuine Indecent Assault (which carries a punishment of 7 years in jail) why has the ‘victim’ not made a complaint to Police?

            I take it this is your first time reading a left-wing or feminist blog if you can ask that question without putting a /sarc on the end.

    • Carolyn_Nth 2.3

      Here is the version updated yesterday on the Wireless. Doesn’t make it any more clear, but suggests lawyers were involved to restrict what is being said.

      UPDATE: The woman who has become the public face of “A Glittery March for Consent”, which aims to raise awareness of issues of consent, sexual harassment and assault, now says a British news agency is only providing her with “advice” on the march.

      Corporations and their predatory capitalists will do what they do anytime, anywhere, without a moral compass. The Wireless article ends:

      Attempts by companies to profit from the #MeToo movement, which has been used online to help show how widespread sexual assault and harassment is, are not unheard of.

      Two weeks after the New York Times first published allegations that led to the Harvey Weinstein scandal, cosmetic company Hard Candy applied to trademark#METOO.

      The company’s CEO told TMZ that it was “not a straight cash grab,” but was intended to be used to “give back to women worldwide”.

      Another company, Fuzzy Logic, has tried to trademark #metoo for use on silicone wristbands.

  3. Carolyn_Nth 3

    Holiday highways.

    Yesterday was was first journey up the so-called “holiday highway”, with toll road, early in a holiday period, since it’s been opened. A real eye-opener. I thought at least t was going to make for an easy journey for people in cars during their hols.

    I went for work, as I was working on a workplace stall at an outdoor event. Foolishly, I assumed leaving Auckland at 8.30am would mean I would get there in 45-50 minutes. But then the electronic signs started appearing saying “queues before the tunnel”. And so it was… before and for a long while after it. Crawling along – stop star, crawl, stop…..

    So this magic tunnel, on a busy 2-3 lane motorway, has one lane in each direction – so of course, a major bottle neck.

    These motorway designers really have some weird logic!

    • Rightly or wrongly 3.1

      We were caught in the same jam and I had the same thought.

      I think the problem is the highway narrows back to a 2 way road directly after the tunnel and so the 2 into 1 has to occur somewhere.

      With the amount of traffic heading north you would think an expressway expansion would be a priority.

      • Carolyn_Nth 3.1.1

        I would like more mass transit options – and that would alleviate the amount of cars on the motorway.

        I travel up to the northern reaches of Auckland often for work. Our work policy is to use mass/public transport where possible. If that’s not possible, then take one of the work fleet cars.

        At the moment the fleet cars are the only option for work to get there and back in a timely manner.

        We desperately need a rail system, plus better local bus services in the north of Auckland.

    • Andre 3.2

      Careful, much more talk like that and you’ll become a convert to the MoRONS cult! I assume you’re talking about the Johnstone’s Hill tunnels just south of Puhoi.

      The logic of narrowing it down to one lane northbound before the tunnel is to ensure the bottleneck and merging happens outside the tunnel. That way the cars are moving a bit more freely through the tunnel, in theory*, and it’s less likely there will be an incident inside the tunnel. Southbound there’s two lanes through the tunnel since it’s continuous two lanes going south beyond the tunnel and it’s much less likely to be queued up through the tunnel.

      *In practice, the tightest bottleneck is at Warkworth, so the slow queue usually starts there and grows southwards until it backs up traffic through the tunnel. But even so, cars are moving through the tunnel twice as fast with only one lane than they would if there were two, so there’s less time spent in the confined space with concentrated exhausts, and there’s more room for emergency access if needed.

      • Carolyn_Nth 3.2.1

        Yes, it is too easy to get caught up in some dodgy logic when we don’t have travel options.

        I get frustrated when my only choice is to use a car, and it turns out to be a pretty poor means of travel.

        • Andre 3.2.1.1

          What bunches my undies about the Puhoi-Warkworth motorway being built is there was an alternative that would deliver almost all the benefits for around a third the cost. Bevan Woodward had been pushing it for years, and my contacts in civil engineering consultancy all thought it was a better option, even just looking at it from a cars/trucks view rather than a wider whole transport system view.

          Yes, Warkworth is a bottleneck, even at moderate traffic times. So a bypass there looks justified, so may as well build a new bypass to motorway standard to give a good long passing lane each way. Schedewy’s hill really is a hazard, so eliminate the corners with a cutting or tunnels under the hill. The narrow Pohuehue viaduct is a minor bottleneck, so double it up for a continuous passing lane up the hill.

          Do those three upgrades, and the rest of SH1 Puhoi-Warkworth is easily upgradeable if traffic volumes ever grow enough to justify it. Meanwhile, just doing upgrades rather than a whole new motorway would free up resources to tackle problems further north like Dome Valley, a bypass around Wellsford, the Brynderwyns etc.

          • Carolyn_Nth 3.2.1.1.1

            Warkworth needs a more comprehensive public/mass transport system. It is becoming a commuter suburb to Auckland city (ditto Wellsford), with the increasing development of greenfields development in these areas.

            I know one or two long time Warkworth residents who, now given limited work choices, need to commute daily, or fairly regularly, to Auckland CBD. This means a long commute, and very early start and late end times to the day.

            The biggest traffic congestion is between Albany and the CDB.

            Warkworth town centre gets clogged with cars on weekdays because, for most people, currently the best way to travel around the area is by car.

            That, plus eliminating the awful intersection with SHI and the Matakana, Snells Beach roads, would reduce the bottleneck.

            And getting more trucks off the roads by an increase in the amount of freight travelling to the north by rail.

            I don’t now the locations of places by the names you mention, though can make a guess.

            Dome Valley is a major problem. It’s not so bad in good weather. However, I had to travel back from Wellsford one time during a big storm. With limited visibility, slippery conditions, and all those “high crash area” signs in the Dome Valley, it was a very stressful journey.

            And there are way too many trucks travelling through the Dome Valley.

            • Andre 3.2.1.1.1.1

              That Hill St intersection that’s such a nightmare for Matakana and Snell’s Beach residents shouldn’t be anywhere near as bad when the main road there is no longer SH1. Because it will be able to allocate much more more of the traffic light time to other users, whereas now it has to prioritise SH1 traffic.

              Nevertheless, AT has a proposed Matakana Link Road. Which is of no use to Snell’s Beach residents. But surprise, it makes it very convenient for people getting off the new motorway to go to Matakana and Omaha.

              https://at.govt.nz/projects-roadworks/matakana-link-road/

              Going south not far from Warkworth, there’s the long straight passing lane going up a hill, that narrows down to a two-lane bridge, then has a short passing lane after the bridge. That bridge is the Pohuehue viaduct. Then you have the straightish bit along the top of Windy Ridge, before going down the hill with some tight corners (where there’s a couple of stretches of passing lane for northbound traffic). That downhill windy bit is Schedewy’s Hill.

              • Rosemary McDonald

                “That bridge is the Pohuehue viaduct.”

                We regularly travel between Waikato and the Far North in our 5 ton housebus. If we opt to go down SH1 and the Pukeko Tunnel (our name for the Johnstone’s Hill ) it is that two lane/one lane each way/two lane thing happening at Pohuehue that will literally give me nightmares.

                I’m not sure what can be misconstrued by the old Bus in the left lane indicating left so vehicles behind know I’m aware and its safe to for them to pass in the passing lane…then, when the passing lane is running out I do the right indicator thing to let following cars know that the passing lane is fast disappearing and I need to move right so I can cross the bridge.

                And yes…I’m probably, optimistically, rocketing up the hill at 60 kph… but still no excuse for the fifth car in line behind me thinking…OH! It’s my turn to risk a head on collision on the Pohuehue Bridge today!!! Yay!!! And proceeds to floor it and pass the other four patient cars plus moi.

                Result…I have to slow down/stop to let suicidal maniac pass…thereby losing my precious revs and now a steady 20kph is all I can manage from a standing start.

                No amount of road building will fix the problem of the impatient psychopath behind the wheel. 🙂

                • Andre

                  I suggest adopting a somewhat more bullying attitude at the end of the passing lane.

                  As soon as the dashed line ends, start drifting over to the right while maintaining speed. The idiot attempting a too-late pass can slow down to your 60kph in a very short distance if need be on a fairly steep hill like that. There’s plenty of sealed road to the left if the idiot doesn’t get the message and keeps coming anyway and you need to make emergency room so there isn’t a head-on.

                  That’s the technique I eventually arrived at when I was regularly towing a large trailer up there at about the same speed.

              • Carolyn_Nth

                Thanks. Yes, I pretty much guessed the places you were talking about.

                The SH1 move will relieve the congestion around the Hill Street intersection. However, it will do nothing to relieve the road congestion, and parking issues in the town centre.

                More buses in the area would be useful.

                I’m told some of the residents around the Snells Beach area are from Pacific communities, attracted to the area for work. One of the main factories that employs them is some way down Woodcocks Rd – so why not better bus services through those areas? Especially with the planned increase in residential housing around the outskirts of Warkworth.

                And a better bus service for retirees living out around the Matakana Road would maybe also relieve some of the congestion.

  4. Ed 4

    I would not call neoliberalism a 30 year old disaster.
    It is a living disaster for millions of New Zealanders.
    Pretending neoliberal economics doesn’t exist is one of Labour’s blind spots.
    You only solve problems by confronting them.

    [Same as below. Picked a point. Cut/shifted the sub-thread.] – Bill

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • indiana 4.1

      Was it a disaster for the billion people lifted out of poverty?

      • Ed 4.1.1

        I do not debate issues with trolls.

        • Stunned mullet 4.1.1.1

          Yeah, but you could get one of your sock puppets to chime in.

        • cleangreen 4.1.1.2

          Yes Ed there are to many snide bad remarks from the right here now that they re turning folks away now.

      • Brigid 4.1.2

        Indiana yours is exactly the sort of comment that is part of the unfortunate detritus that The Standard could do without.

        The ‘billion people lifted out of poverty’ claim is simply neo liberal rhetoric, not fact.

      • OncewasTim 4.1.3

        I call bulshit @Indiana.
        I’m in a place with a billion people (not too disimilar to your handle),
        Trickling down and rising tides …. like hell.
        Like elswhere the wealth transfer is to the few at the expense of the many

      • KJT 4.1.4

        A billion peoples, Average dollar, income going up.
        Does not equal lifting out of poverty, except in right wing fantasies.

        Especially when the income lift goes to 1%, of them.

        Meanwhile local farmers and suppliers have lost what little income they had.

        Forcing them into city slums, work for Foxcon, and across borders, to survive.

  5. adam 5

    So 42 individuals own more personally that the bottom 50%. Yeah this economic system is working so well.

    Just a short piece.

    https://leecamp.com/new-billionaire-created-every-2-days-millions-go-hungry/?mc_cid=731a89d5aa&mc_eid=524e48683c

  6. Observer Tokoroa 6

    Hi Stuart Munro

    So why didn’t you demand all your demands from your friends the Capitalists?. You have had many years to do it. And you did nothing.

    As predicted – the same old rants are pouring out.

    You clearly have not even read a word of what has been written in the first 100 days of the new Government. Immigration for instance.

    Really Stuart. whats wrong with you Labour Haters. ?

    In the meantime, The Standard stays as the laughing stock of NZ thought and activity.

    Well done Stuart.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • Ed 6.1

      So what is your view about the Labour Party signing the TPP?

    • Stuart Munro 6.2

      I have in fact been banned with some frequency for sledging the Gnats. But Labour’s original defection remains relevant, because the poor require political representation whether their original party chooses to represent them or not.

      Labour have said a number of things in respect of immigration changes, but although Indian student numbers have dropped significantly the expectation in rural industries remains that they have access to ‘skilled’ foreign workers. We will be able recognize material change by the volume of rightwing angst, should it materialize.

  7. joe90 7

    Corrupt AF right winger loots the state to finance his campaign, overrides the courts and then sez, we must sit down for dialogue openly and without barriers. ..

    TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras (AP) — President Juan Orlando Hernandez was sworn in for a new term in the Honduran capital Saturday, while across town tear gas drifted across flaming barricades in clashes between police and protesters angry over an election the say was marred by fraud.

    […]

    The inauguration came after soldiers and riot police fired tear gas to block thousands of demonstrators from marching to the National Stadium to protest. Masked protesters shot rocks from slingshots and kicked canisters back toward security forces as barricades burned and gas billowed on the streets.

    “This is how the dictator oppresses his people,” said opposition presidential candidate Salvador Nasralla, who says the election was stolen and he was the true winner of the vote.

    “We remain in the struggle to rescue the country from dictatorship and without recognizing Hernandez as president,” Nasralla told The Associated Press.

    Hernandez, a 49-year-old lawyer, is Honduras’ first president to be re-elected — a key point in the protests against him.

    The 1982 constitution bars presidents from seeking a new term and conservative politicians deposed a leftist president in 2009 for allegedly even considering re-election. But Hernandez won a Supreme Court ruling in 2015 to get around that prohibition.

    https://www.apnews.com/fcc1e19345464dc6a5fed11a8aeb04ba/Honduran-president-starts-new-term-as-fiery-protests-erupt

  8. Ed 8

    Martin Bradbury has written a superb piece over at the Daily Blog .
    It is a blunt reminder, despite the Jacindamania, that neoliberalism still has New Zealand in a vice like grip.

    An excerpt.

    “ We cheer Team NZ and sneer at those homeless in cars.

    We property speculate ourselves to false illusions of wealth and decry public spending on state housing.

    We lose ourselves in the labyrinth of neoliberal identity politics while the richest 1% own almost 30% of everything.

    We cheer Lord of the Rings while trashing worker rights.

    We shoot a bloody business card into the sky and tell ourselves this individual success of a medium sized enterprise is actually a metaphorical Plato-esk intellectual lantern to light the future of humanity!

    The vanity of modern neoliberal NZ is Trump-like in its delusion.”

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2018/01/28/why-the-vacant-optimism-of-the-humanity-star-perfectly-sums-up-the-vanity-of-modern-neoliberal-nz/

    • red-blooded 8.1

      So how does that sneering remark about losing ourselves “in the labyrinth of neoliberal identity politics” square with your earlier comments about toxic masculinity (an “identity politics” issue), Ed?

      Martyn Bradbury relies too much on easy (and lazy) hyperbole and sweeping generalisations for my taste.

      • Ed 8.1.1

        Fair point.
        I like the fact Martin speaks truth to power.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 8.1.1.1

          Relying too much on easy lazy hyperbole isn’t “speaking truth to power”. Power loves easy lazy hyperbole because it’s completely nonthreatening and steals oxygen from more informed, more cogent critique.

    • cleangreen 8.2

      100% Ed,

      yes Martyn did well also today on another article regarding how our political system which mirrors the US election style also now and that we need to take stock of what our Labour coalition also may face in 2020.

      Warning signs are there for us to be aware of going forward.

      “To be forewarned is to be forearmed.”

  9. Ed 9

    Rereading Merchants of Doubt by Orestes and Conway.
    Worth the time when you hear New Zealand scientists like Rowarth and Edmeades and journalists like Smith, and Mora deliberately muddying the waters here..

  10. Louis 10

    To Ed. Obviously a matter of opinion, but I think this is worth repeating.

    “This is the first round of employment law changes that this government plans to make. It is the first steps towards reversing 30 years of working people having their rights diminished and losing their fair share of a growing economy”

    Workplace Relations Minister Iain Lees-Galloway

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11981946

    Bottom line.

    Changes will occur in steps, over time. It was never going to be an all or nothing in one big swoop. It’s a coalition government. There’s an element of compromise. Patience is required. I’m just thankful and grateful that change has begun.

    [Had to pick “somewhere” as the place to shift that huge drift off into Labour Party stuff. The post was specifically about “the standard”] – Bill

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • Carolyn_Nth 10.1

      The time for incrementalism by a progressive party is past. That’s a late 20th century third way approach, when what we need right now is a significant change with strongly articulated left values and policies.

      The time was ripe for a change, but the dominant people in the LP caucus chose to go to the electorate timidly, with cap in hand. (I’m looking at Parker and Robertson, particularly).

      It always seemed to me the message I was getting, was that the Labour caucus leaders would prefer an alliance with NZ First to one with the Greens. I thought this before Ardern became leader, but it was reinforced by some of her early responses on becoming leader. I said so at the time.

      So, in a way, they set up the conditions to weaken the vote for the Greens – that and the way they worked to adopt and weaken some of the GP policies on climate and social and economic justice.

      To me, refraining from being critical of Labour is a lost cause. They have set the left in NZ back by about a decade or two. [Damn right I am angry about it!]

      The only hopes are a revival of strong left wing values through a movement at the flax roots, plus a re-strengthened Green Party (with Maramar Davidson as co-leader outside cabinet or a ministry shackle), or a new left wing party.

      • Ed 10.1.1

        I think a Marama Davidson led Green Party would provide the changes needed

      • Louis 10.1.2

        You may think its past, but change will happen in steps. That’s what we are seeing. What we’ve got, is what we’ve got, working against that achieves what exactly? and I disagree that “they set up the conditions to weaken the vote for the Greens.” It’s not about refraining from criticism, but we should at least be constructive about it.

      • Bill 10.1.3

        Whole-heartedly agree on the NZ Labour/Green/NZF dynamic.

        Curious (neutrally so) as to why Maramar Davidson over Julie Ann Genter though.

        • Carolyn_Nth 10.1.3.1

          Julie Anne Genter is very good in all areas of the Green 3 planks. But her main focus is on the environment, much like James Shaw, and transport.

          Davidson has always been for the strong and equal integration of the 3 planks, even before joining the Greens. But she puts a stronger focus on participating in community engagement at the flax roots – and does this in the crucial low income areas of South Auckland. where she has experienced first hand the struggles of brown renters, and low income people.

          Davidson also engages directly with Māori and Pacific communities.

      • Chuck 10.1.4

        As Labour and the Greens compete for the same voter pool (in the main) they cannibalize each other’s vote. Just look at the swings before the election.

        NZF was the only way to power for Labour (and the Greens). Hence Winston was always in the box seat.

        For the Green Party to re-strengthen will require Labour to lose support. Unless you can convince some of the 45% or so of center – center-right voters they should swing left (a lot) it will just be the status quo.

        The last thing you need is another leftwing party!

        You need the Labour party to be strong while trying to also grow the Green voter base.

    • Ed 10.2

      I agree.
      I am also happy we have got rid of Key, English, Joyce, Collins….

    • Louis 10.3

      It was in response to Ed’s comment.

  11. adam 11

    The first 10 minutes are hilarious. The US military are awesome at killing everyone! The US military are the world’s biggest polluter. Over all, video 32 minutes long.

  12. Observer Tokoroa 12

    To: Stuart Munro

    You come in with punches against the new Government. As if you were wishing to floor them the first opportunity you can get.

    You want them to ban 1080. Full stop.

    But you do not succinctly state what you will replace 1080 with.

    You go on against the Government for not having a full anti immigration policy. Again you want to floor the Government in its first days. It is a great pity that the green party had not skilled all jobless Nnew Zealanders – so that no immigrants would be required.

    But they didn’t – did they.

    Can you see why I The Standard gets let down Stuart.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    [Take a week off. The post isn’t about anything you wrote in either of the two comments you made that I had to shift over here. And I can’t be arsed to check future comments to see if you’re still wasting space/threads and attacking Stuart Munro. Come back next Sunday.] – Bill

  13. Ad 13

    C’mon Federer.

  14. joe90 14

    I’m not too familiar with Halsey, but her poetry, oh boy,….

    (careful, detailed description of sexual abuse)

  15. joe90 16

    It gets worse.

    (1&2/30)

    In light of what's going on with #Dreamers, it's time to talk about Japanese internment. Because the #DACA showdown is Japanese internment 2.0.— Sarah Taber (@SarahTaber_bww) January 20, 2018

    Japanese immigrants in the 19th & early 20th centuries came to the US in large part for manual farm labor in California. Sound familiar?— Sarah Taber (@SarahTaber_bww) January 20, 2018

    Unrolled.

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/954774752970801152.html

  16. Rosemary McDonald 17

    Nonononononono…..

    The price of Winston’s handshake…

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/349096/nz-to-get-new-all-weather-horse-racing-track

    I can’t bloody believe it.

    “The Racing Minister Winston Peters made the announcement at the official opening of the annual bloodstock sales in Karaka in South Auckland today.

    Several races around the country have recently been called off due to rain.

    Mr Peters said the track would be funded by both taxpayers and the industry.

    “The idea is a very sound idea and it will stop the huge losses that are happening because events that are clearly going to be cancelled have no alternative.””

    Horse racing, second only to rodeo in the animal abuse stakes.

    And we, the taxpayers, are going to be coughing up mega millions so there can be even more of it.

    Jesus wept.

    • 38% of NZ roads are unsealed. We have a rickety old single lane bridge over the Hurunui River on SH1. We have parents being driven into the arms of loan sharks to buy school uniforms and stationery. Kids go to school hungry and without adequate clothing. People live with chronic pain because of hospital waiting lists. And, and, and….. Winston’s idea of what NZ needs as a priority is an all weather racing track so he and his buddies can bet and booze – because let’s not pretend otherwise – that’s what horse racing is all about.

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