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Open mike 28/02/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, February 28th, 2021 - 121 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

121 comments on “Open mike 28/02/2021 ”

  1. Robert Guyton 1

    Will Simon Bridges also dismiss ol' Chester as a "wokester"

    "While it is politically attractive to pretend we can arrest our way to success with methamphetamine, we need to see the same passion for providing rehabilitation, understanding, and pre-emptive strategies across society to try and turn the tap off in this burgeoning trade.

    Chester Borrows is a former police officer, and served as Courts Minister in the Key government. He currently sits on the Parole Board."


  2. KSaysHi 2

    Good to see something is being done. In particular I would like attention on how the changes to welfare either completely skipped disabled, or in many cases made their situation worse (remember the PM saying that nobody would be worse off? Not true).


    • Rosemary McDonald 2.1

      I wish them well, I truly do, but I fear it will be a waste of time and effort.

      No government in NZ has ever committed to addressing inequities and inequalities for disabled people. Neither of the Big Two give a shit, and minor parties lack the power and influence to move the mountains more than a few millimetres.

      The single digit salute given to the advice from the Welfare Expert Advisory Group by this Current Mob is a dead giveaway…

      And speaking about death…and because NZ tends to trot behind the Motherland in social policy…pesky disabled are going to be less of a drain on the UK economy by virtue if the fact that Te Virus kills them off at a horrifyingly higher rate than the rest of the population.


      Of course that article fails to mention this quiet little initiative that has been going on for some time…


      (Cue the resident euthanasia promoters here on TS…just what is needed is another lecture about the ethics of spending more $$$ on disabled people at the expense of the poor.)

      • Treetop 2.1.1

        I saw on Aljazeera TV a few weeks back that 3 out of 5 in the UK who died were disabled. It was confronting that many in the disabled group had a do not resuscitate on their medical file which they were not aware of.

      • Foreign waka 2.1.2

        Point well made Rosemary.

        We could put this simply: Humans are animals and resources on this planet are finite.

        Reaction: aggression, defensiveness, me me me, no compassion. its is the same story since the ape started to stand upright. Very, very few will raise above that. NZ is no different. With Euthanasia a door has opened to justify to end the suffering…. this, not even animals do.

  3. Pat 3

    Whats the difference between nipping down to the vape store during isolation and loading up the car and heading to Coromandel to avoid lockdown?

    • David 3.1

      Or bailing Auckland midday two weekends in a fortnight to make a late evening lock down announcement for Auckland from Wellington.

  4. Treetop 4

    From day 1 the classification of contacts at Papatoetoe College gave the wrong impression of who was more at risk. Being in the same year class or travelling on a school bus with a student who was infectious without knowing.

    I would like to know the failure rate for a nasal swab not picking up Covid-19 when it is in the lungs?

    Were it known where the first community case of this outbreak became infected this would have been an advantage.

    It is about dealing with the situation as it is at this time and the required information being given clearly so it understood and followed.

  5. Anker 5
    • Hi Treetop, I looked that up ie the failure rate of the nasal swab. It’s 96% accurate, which is great, but when you think of that every four in 100 are false negatives.

    I am no expert but it would seem the most obvious explanation is case M and N caught it off their family member who was at PapatoetoeHS and she returned three negative tests.

    the geonome is the same in case m and n as the papatoetoe cluster

    • Treetop 5.1

      Thanks for that.

      Unlikely to be 3 false positives on all of the nasal swabs so other reasons for not showing a positive. Could be a combination, not infectious yet, in the lung (not sure if would show being symtomatic), or a case outside the home is the likely source of contact for the older sibling and his mother and nothing to do with the household.

      Genome sequencing is helpful to tie it to a cluster.

      • Andre 5.1.1

        Unlikely to be 3 false positives on all of the nasal swabs …

        Well, just on the straight numbers of 1 in every 25 tests of a positive person returning a false negative test result, that would be one in every roughly 15,000 covid-positive people returning 3 false negative results.

        Given that our total case count is now up to around 2400, it's not wildly implausible that we have had enough instances of infection for the very rare event of repeated false negatives to have actually occurred. Just like your individual chance of winning Powerball is almost indistinguishable from zero, yet someone in New Zealand does in fact win Powerball every few weeks.

        That's without considering the nuances of what conditions make false negatives more likely, or the possibility of timing issues that the first negative test might have been so early in the infection that it would be very unlikely to produce a positive, and so on.

        • Peter

          All of which highlights that it's a very complex business. And that's without getting into the intricacies of what the virus does in bodies or the involved, problematic things around communities and transmission.

          Wasn't it brilliant a year ago that overnight we developed a couple of million microbiologists and epidemiologists who could tell everyone what could and should be done.

          The theme today in some places is more base of course. Ardern resigning, (and Hipkins and Bloomfield,) seems the minimum. Funny how those who so rapidly advanced through the ranks of the scientifically knowledgeable and qualified could just as instantly turn into lynch mob morons.

          • McFlock

            I still love the if these trends continue comments from some of the ebola-era google-trained epidemiologists. Total zombie apocalypse territory.

  6. Andre 6

    On the topic of Navalny, Kremlin propaganda campaigns, western useful idiots, Amnesty International:


    Personally, this omnishambles adds another major point of evidence discrediting Amnesty International's judgement, along with their really clueless adoption of Mumia Abu-Jamal as a poster boy.

    Along with how it highlights how readily convergence moonbats happily amplify Kremlin propaganda without any attempt at critical examination, or consideration of nuance of the big picture.

    • The Al1en 6.1

      Same sort of thing happened to James Le Mesurier

    • Brigid 6.2

      Prisoner of conscience?

      Jesus Andre do get a grip.

      Navalny is a simple criminal who is now serving jail time for numerous violations of his suspended sentence.

      And you talk of propaganda.


      • Nic the NZer 6.2.1

        The original charges do seem pretty sketchy.

      • Stuart Munro 6.2.2

        Navalny is by no means a simple criminal – and reinstating a suspended sentence because the convict could not meet contact requirements while recovering from novichok poisoning is a pretty sketchy basis for reimprisonment.

        But since you are repeating Putinist propaganda, it seems only fair that the other side of the story be put. (1) Why Putin wants Alexei Navalny dead – YouTube

      • Incognito 6.2.3

        Andre did not coin the term “prisoner of conscience”; you are taking aim at the messenger.

      • Adrian Thornton 6.2.4

        @ Brigid, these guys are so malleable I seriously believe if we were living in 1941 they would get in behind the Nazi invasion of Russia in a flash if they were told too, they seem to have absolutely no critical thinking facility for processing any new incoming information whatsoever.

        Of course they will willfully either ignore or justify this…

        Reuters, BBC in Covert UK Program to Push Western Agenda

        • Stuart Munro


          • McFlock

            meh. He's not usually so explicit in his accusations about which camps commenters he doesn't agree with would willingly staff.

            Just because they [checks notes] think Putin is a totalitarian, murdering, kleptocrat.

            I'd be offended, but only if I thought Adrian's opinion was worth more than dogshit.

            • The Al1en

              You have to wonder about someone who repeatedly refers to concentration camps to defend a losing point of view.

              Now if camp guard meant Charles Hawtrey or Kenneth Williams in carry on sergeant, that would be much less barking and, of course, somewhat amusing.

            • Adrian Thornton

              I don’t believe there has been a bombing, a sanction, an assassination, a droning, or in fact any sort of aggressive foreign action from western countries directed outwardly across the planet, that you bunch of mindless fucking maniacs haven’t supported if told it’s OK by Liberal media…and that is why I often compare you to camp guards, because there is a long sad history of people like you lot of brainless arse lickers who end up being actually really dangerous to fellow citizens when/if shit ever hits the fan.

              Like I said a couple of weeks ago, when someone comes along, who you guys think is the right authority, and that authority says jump, and you lot instantly yell back…HOW HIGH SIR…..no questions asked, ever…it’s really quite scary and unsettling to watch in real time.

              And BTW, you have proved time and again here on this site, that if they told you dog shit was chocolate ice cream, you would shovel that down your throat as quick as you could. of that I am sure.

              • mauī

                Thank you.

                Also note they won't/can't counter the reasonable content you provide that falls outside the establishment narrative they vehemently hold on to.

              • McFlock

                Yes, you are sure of many scary and unsettling things.

                The relationship of those things to reality, however, seems tenuous and ephemeral. If only you could form a coherent, rational argument to support the reality of those things, rather than merely producing flecks of froth around the mouth.

              • The Al1en

                I don’t believe there has been a bombing, a sanction, an assassination, a droning, or in fact any sort of aggressive foreign action from western countries directed outwardly across the planet, that you bunch of mindless fucking maniacs haven’t supported if told it’s OK by Liberal media

                With that statement you not only show you haven't read what people have posted in opposition to some western military actions, you admit to having no real clue about politics – especially global insight, and then self confess to being the sort of moron wiser heads think you are. Well played.

                when someone comes along, who you guys think is the right authority, and that authority says jump, and you lot instantly yell back…HOW HIGH SIR

                That’s exactly what you do.
                You’re like one of those Trump supporters who believes the voting machines were hacked because the my pillow guy told you.

              • Incognito

                Could you please do all of us here on TS a favour and rinse your mouth out with soap and tone it down, thanks. The three of you love to fight here, and who am I to judge, but your personal insults keep crossing the admittedly fuzzy boundaries of robust debate and it is a tad embarrassing.

                • Adrian Thornton

                  I am not the least bit embarrassed, why should I be, I stand behind everything I said today, and say whenever I am on The Standard.
                  As I have always said, I am very easy to find, so if anyone wants this debate face to face, that’s fine with me.

                  Will try and tone the swearing down a bit though if that is a problem.

                  • Incognito

                    Will try and tone the swearing down a bit though if that is a problem.

                    Yes, I think that would be appreciated all around, thank you.

                    • McFlock

                      Because it's the naughty words that are a problem, not calling people "camp guards"? Especially now he's made it clear precisely which camps he means?

                    • Incognito []

                      It’s all of it.

                      Adrian doesn’t like me “micro managing” you (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-25-01-2021/#comment-1776224 and https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-25-01-2021/#comment-1776230), which I think is fair enough and I rely on you self-moderating. However, that doesn’t seem to be working so well for so long so soon I will resort to ‘macro managing’ and I personally don’t give a toss who are going to be caught in that when it happens. When you treat other commenters with obvious disdain, you severely diminish your demands to and of Moderators.

                    • McFlock

                      Fair call.

                      Trouble was, when I tried ignoring most commenters I have disdain for, it's fine. But with one or two, sooner or later they drop something along the lines of the lack of response "speaks volumes", which is a flat-out lie.

                      So sometimes it feels like the old rock and hard place.

                    • Incognito []

                      When your drunk uncle at a party starts whaling that nobody loves him it is better to call a taxi for him than to beat him even more senseless.

                    • McFlock

                      It's not the morbid drunks who are a problem for other people – it's the one who's taking swings at random folk and calling them the c-word in lieu of being able to form a rational position.

                      By the way, he’s been doing it for over a year now so yeah, I’m getting tired of it.

                    • Incognito []

                      Noted, thanks.

    • Morrissey 6.3

      "Useful idiots", "Convergence moonbats", "Kremlin propaganda", "clueless". Lots of epithets, zero argument. Reminds one of this thoughtful analyst:

      • Incognito 6.3.1

        Indeed, it is frustrating when people offer no argument or (political) analysis but only ad homs and cheap labels ‘supported’ with meaningless and distracting YT clips.

        • Morrissey

          With respect, Incognito, my choice of that Keith Olbermann montage was hardly meaningless. All of the ad homs and cheap labels in this thread come from Andre; I placed them in context.

      • Gabby 6.3.2

        You upset cos the best insults have been used already?

        • Incognito

          It has been a while since anybody here received a ban. You’re currently in pole position and the nearest competition is not even in sight, I’m pleased to say.

        • Morrissey

          They're not any good as insults because they are either worn out or they have no basis in reality.

          Worn out insults: 1) Stalin's "useful idiots" crack. This is no more than a cliché and it has no power at all; Andre and a few others use it on this forum quite a bit. It usually says nothing about the target, but a great deal about the attacker.

          2) "clueless"–same as for "useful idiots."

          Insults with no basis in reality: 1) The flaccid "convergence moonbat" slur is an invention of one of the beleaguered propagandists who churns out copy for the faux-liberal Clintonista rump of the tedia, AKA “the blogosphere” (Daily Kos, Daily Beast, Vox, Huff Po). It is predicated on the nonsensical idea that, since principled people on the left criticised the Democratic Party's "leadership" and right wingers from Fox News railed, often incoherently, against Democratic "leaders", then both left and right must be the same. They converge, in other words. To quote Noam Chomsky, in order to accept that theory, you need a very expensive education.

          2) "Kremlin propaganda"—sane and reasonable people will of course realize that if the Russian government happens to agree with one on a point of principle—for example, that supporting the Al-Nusra Front in Syria is not a good idea—that does not necessarily mean that one is a supporter of the Russian government.

          • Sacha

            Chomsky inspired me to use 'useful idiots' without even making the Stalin connection. I'm sure that says lots about me.

    • Adrian Thornton 6.4

      ,,, without any attempt at critical examination, or consideration of nuance of the big picture."

      …here is some of the 'critical examination' you so rightly point out is sorely missing in coverage of this topic, and from actual Russians on the ground in Russia, who would ever have thought actual Russian citizens might have their own diverse opinions about their own affairs?

      For Russian leftists, Western favorite Navalny represents same corrupt elitism
      Two Russian leftists, Katya Kazbek and Alexey Sakhnin discuss why they don't see Navalny as a genuine alternative to Vladimir Putin, and instead as a representative of a different faction of the ruling Russian elite — one more willing to cater to Western counterparts."

      In Navalny poisoning, rush to judgment threatens new Russia-NATO crisis
      Guest: Fred Weir, veteran Moscow correspondent for the Christian Science Monitor.

      • Stuart Munro 6.4.1

        The thing is Adrian, all you do is repost trash like this.

        You never entertain the obvious questions – like, "How legitimate can a person who declares himself president for life be?" – a question Xi also needs to answer.

        The lack of critical thinking lies with you Putin dupes.

        Find yourself a few primary sources on Russia instead of what Putin's PR machine spoonfeeds you, and you'll be less of a public embarrassment.

        • Adrian Thornton

          And what is your problem with the people that Aron Mate' interviews in those two clips exactly?

          • Stuart Munro

            It's not obvious to you?

            You have selected them for their subservience to the corrupt Putin regime. You need to balance such perspectives – you might start here: Blowing up Russia: the secret plot to bring back KGB power Download (236 Pages) (pdfdrive.com)

            The second fellow is a very poor commentator also. You should be aware that Russia has a significant intellectual culture – these people wanted, in the post Gorbachov era, to have an actual democracy.

            They are absolutely furious with Putin reverting to the corruption that characterized the late Soviet era. When that autocrat took power, Russian presidential terms were limited to five years – specifically to keep scoundrels like Putin out. He has betrayed the reform of the post-Soviet era – and his management has been economically disastrous as well as deadly to journalists and industrialists that were not part of his clique.

            And of course you have not answered the question. How can a leader who pretends to be a democratic president declare himself president for life? This is the act of an autocrat – and autocrats are not legitimate.

            • Adrian Thornton

              “You have selected them for their subservience to the corrupt Putin regime. You need to balance such perspectives” FFS!!!

              I don't want to be rude here Stuart, but it really looks like you are either being willfully stupid or are desperately trying to just remain ignorant of other facts around this issue, so you can, for some unknown reason, only ever talk or comment on it in half truths and rhetoric….try actually putting a pin into that bubble of yours once and awhile, the fresh air might do you some good my friend.

              Aaronn Mate' interviews from the above clips…

              Interviewee 1;
              Alexey Sakhnin is a Russian activist and a member of the Left Front. He was one of the leaders of the anti-Putin protest movement from 2011 to 2013. He later emigrated to Sweden and lived as an exile there, before returning to Russia to continue his work as a left oppositional activist and journalist. He is also a member of the Progressive International Council.

              Interviewee 2:
              Katya Kazbek is originally from Russia. She is a feminist and an LGBTIQ issues freelance writer. Her work has been published in Creative Times Report, Russian GQ and Vogue. Katya’s main fields of interest include the post-colonial struggle in the ex-USSR territories, race, migration, class, sexual violence and queer identities

              Interviewee 3;
              Fred Weir has been the Monitor's Moscow correspondent, covering Russia and the former Soviet Union, since 1998. He's traveled over much of that vast territory, reporting on stories ranging from Russia's financial crash to the war in Chechnya, creeping Islamization in central Asia, Russia's demographic crisis, the rise of Vladimir Putin and his repeated returns to the Kremlin, and the ups and downs of US-Russia relations.
              Fred is the co-author of Revolution from Above: Russia's Path from Gorbachev to Putin, Routledge, 2007.

  7. Jester 7

    From NZ Herald: "The new case – "Case M" – attends the Manukau Institute of Technology (MIT) and is the older brother of a Papatoetoe High School student. The man, who also works at Kerry Logistics (Oceania) Limited, went to MIT for three days and to the gym twice – including once after taking a Covid test – when he should have been isolating at home".

    He is not going to be popular with his work mates at Kerry Logistics or MIT!

    Its all very well for Seymour to blame Ardern for this lock down, but how the hell do you stop idiots like this! (other than locking them up or something).

    • Tricledrown 7.1

      If Seymour was our leader he would be like Trump no masks no lock down.

      The UK variant is much more easily spread we need to be much more careful and be prepared for sudden lockdown.

    • georgecom 7.2

      Some months ago on the radio I heard the account of a bloke who was feeling unwell and thought he might have covid, that chap got a test and immediately voluntary self isolated. I felt gratitude toward him for doing the right thing and helping ensure the virus remained under control.

      We have heard similar a number of times since. So and so recorded a positive test however the risk is low as they person had been self isolating for so many days before infection.

      Fest forward to this past week. Ardern has said it was right to drop levels last week as those who posed a risk had been identified and had been told to isolate. If people had done the right thing we would have a firewall around the virus.

      The problem of course if that some people DIDN'T do the right thing. And for all the reasons they might have felt 'compelled' or 'needed' to go out, there was an element of choice in them not doing the right thing, they chose so. Now thousands of people are at risk; at risk of contracting covid19, at risk of seeing a precarious business going under, at risk of missing a mortgage payment, at risk of missing bills, at risk of losing a job.

      Most people will do the right thing. With those who choose not to the question that came to my mind is – do we from now on have to go to a level 3 or similar each and every time, rather than rely in contact tracing and isolation for some, to give no option to those who cannot make the right choice. Everyone goes to level 3 because some people cannot do as asked an cannot do the right thing. Due to a few placing us all at risk, we take away the option of doing the right thing, and automatically apply a blanket level 3 across everyone

    • Treetop 7.3

      I sent someone a text this morning to say that MPs need to be tested. An hour later on Q+A Collins was on, she attended the Joseph Parker fight.

      At some point an MP is going to test positive.

    • Stephen D 7.4

      Seymour now wants a police state?

    • georgecom 7.5

      In terms of covid and employers, have been musing on the "not being popular with workmates" bit. Someone may have been exposed to covid and was instructed to self isolate. They however chose to go to work (as opposed to the employer demanding they go to work). So the person goes to work and is then confirmed as having covid. The employer is required to close their business, clean it, and send a number of staff home to isolate and get a test. The risk the employee created might lead to discipline action. I am not saying it will automatically lead to punitive action however I think the employer has open to them initiating discipline action on the employee for the chaos created by not self isolating.

  8. Jester 8

    On the plus side, thanks to case M, the traffic around Saint Heliers and Mission Bay should be fine due to no Round the bays!

    • alwyn 8.1

      I'm off to YouTube to watch the Monty Python Life of Brian tune "Always look on the bright side of life"

      You really are a little ray of sunshine, aren't you?smiley

  9. Incognito 9

    If you want to address gang numbers, you deal with the problem.

    If you want a headline and a soundbite, you criticise the police and name the Government ‘soft on crime’.

    It’s a long road to the next election, and the National Party still has plenty of time to decide what sort of opposition they want to be.

    One that creates solutions, or one that creates headlines.



  10. Herodotus 10

    With schools unable to have galas and other fund raising since late 2019, the drop off of international students and a dramatic reduction in school donations being received for those schools D7+, (that the labour govt decided not to keep its promise to fund ALL schools in lieu of dropping donations). Just listen out to schools following Heath boards with deficits and boards under severe pressure (like Health Boards) to work within inadequate funding levels.

    • Foreign waka 10.2

      So in other words schools can only survive with donations and foreign students. This means NZ has no functioning school system in place.

      Similar situation for the Health system. Not far off for the vulnerable in society.

      But millionaires and billionaires made a bundle, some with the money that should be going to the need of the community. How telling.

      • Incognito 10.2.1

        I see, take a scattergun, shoot at something, then connect the thousands of dots into a coherent self-consistent narrative to discern and communicate ‘the truth’, and come up with ‘solutions’. That’s called constructive criticism and rational debate. It is in short supply, here and everywhere else.

        • Herodotus

          I see continual under funding by ALL governments creating stress at a local level and the acceptance that under funding is to be compensated by the goodwill of teachers, nurses etc fund raising, parking fees, with anything that can makeup shortfalls any options to source funds. With covid many areas of alternative funding has greatly diminished or disappeared, and my comment was directed to Schools experiencing this so early on in the year. Other examples St Johns.


          • Foreign waka

            All policies are human constructs and not set in stone, follow natural laws etc. This can be changed. It takes a strong willed government and enough people fed up with all that BS we are being fed daily to act.

            I am for one not optimistic.

    • Muttonbird 10.3

      I would have thought if there is a provable drop in revenue, in this case through fundraising, the schools can apply for Covid-19 subsidy assistance just like anyone else?

  11. Herodotus 11

    That unfilled promise means that 30% of schools were not covered, and most schools have galas etc to top up shortfalls Not happening.

  12. Muttonbird 12

    Oh yeah. I knew this was coming because I saw the alert when paying GST on Friday (forgive me a little indulgent virtue signalling there).

    But, perfect timing, right?

    Covid 19 coronavirus: IRD website down, businesses can't apply for support payment


  13. Ad 13

    This Ngati Maru settlement seems pretty small for all the Waitara wrongs of the 1860s and Parihaka on top of that.

    $30m plus a few reserves, and rights to buy a bit more: the full set of settlement documents is here:


    Of course the iwi themselves have signed on to it.

    I'm just marking that this is a damnably small settlement for the scale of injustice perpetrated against them by the Crown.

    In 1865 this iwi had control of about 220,000 hectares, from the sources of the Waitakere to Stratford and to Whanganui.

    As always the Crown's reps recognise it's not enough …. "While no redress can ever fully compensate for the destructive and demoralising effects of Crown actions, I hope this settlement will allow Ngāti Maru to realise their aspirations for a vibrant economic and cultural future, and restores a relationship based on mutual trust, respect, and cooperation." – Minister Little

    But TBH if that had happened to my family I wouldn't be letting Minister Little off with it. I'd just keep fighting until I was good and done.


    If they manage to acquire any cutting rights, I sure hope they cut them fast before the Chinese locally-grown glut collapses our log prices. Because if they don't they won't be worth much.

    Looking forward to the post-settlement entity going from strength to strength.

    Also looking forward to visiting the Parihaka village upgrade once it's all done.

    • alwyn 13.1

      This is just the first bite, as I am sure you are aware.

      "Full and final settlements" are no such thing.

      It is unavoidable.

  14. Ad 14

    Great to see a 'funeral for a river' done with such panache and also with lots of local farmer support.


    It's one of the first times in a long time I've seen art and activism intersect really well.

    Maybe those artists can come over here and do the same.

  15. alwyn 15

    This seems to be a very quick turnaround by the PM.

    On Tuesday last she seemed to be saying she was in no hurry to get vaccinated.

    "Asked whether she is willing to be vaccinated publicly, Ardern said she will, when it's her turn." ….. "Ardern's decision is a move away from other world leaders who have chosen to receive the vaccination early and in public, in the hopes of inspiring confidence in the vaccine."


    By Saturday she was saying

    "However, she told the Weekend Herald that she would not wait until the middle of the year, when the wider public rollout begins." …. " However, a vaccine will potentially allow Ardern to travel overseas again in the near future, and try to reinvigorate trade talks." …. "The timing and order of any trips would depend on how easy it was to travel. However, global leaders are working on a "vaccine passport" to try to open up travel again."


    Given that she generally travels on an Air Force jet the only inconvenience would seem to be the need to quarantine. Does she know that a vaccination provides immunity from carrying the disease or do our leaders plan to excuse themselves from obligations we have to bear?

    If it is the former it would seem to me that the first group to be vaccinated should be anyone planning to come to this country. After all, if the vaccination is fully effective we could wipe quarantine for anyone who is fully vaccinated. If it doesn't work that way is out PM planning to bypass quarantine for herself but keep it on for everyone else?

    [lprent: Would you care to substantiate “Given that she generally travels on an Air Force jet…” since you have made it as an assertion of fact. However I strongly suspect that you are merely lying (again) for effect. But hey, if you make the assertion, then you own it and are expected to substantiate it. Or you could apologise to the people reading this site for making up false facts?

    Substantive links only please. Possibly comparing it with John Key and/or Bill English broken down by roles.

    Incidentally, as far as I am aware, the most common reason for her (like all previous prime ministers, MFAT ministers, and trade ministers) to use a Air Force 757 jet is to carry trade or diplomatic missions – not specifically for her own travel. If you were being rigorous, then you’d exclude those when they are far larger than her and assisting staff members – but I suspect you might have data issues.

    The nearest viable alternative for the numbers of people on those trips especially to low traffic destinations in the pacific, would be to charter a plane for the people invited or required for those missions. Even then I vaguely remember comments in Hansard by the head of the AF, that it was usually an opportunity to send aid and diplomatic freight as well.

    I’ll put you on auto-moderation for a day or two until you assemble your facts and/or apology. If I don’t hear back from you then I’ll make a sentencing decision. ]

    • Gabby 15.1

      Well she's probably planning to come back into this country after leaving it.

    • Incognito 15.2

      Do you know how long it takes after the first and second shot of vaccine to achieve full immunity?

      Do you know how many days between the two shots?

      Do you know how long new arrivals are mandated to stay in MIQ?

    • lprent 15.3

      see my moderating note.

    • alwyn 15.4

      Travel on an Air Force plane.

      I don't have any opinion on whether she travels on an Air Force plane. It is normally the most convenient way to do it, particularly when there is a large group of people going to some out of the way place.

      [Irrelevant twaddle deleted. ]

      [lprent: Read my note again and stop wasting my time. Doing searches isn’t a rare skill these days. I did that in the couple of minutes after I read your assertion.

      But that wasn’t what I moderated on. You didn’t state your sentence as an opinion – you stated it in a way that claimed it to be a fact. I wouldn’t have bothered to moderate on an opinion expressed as an opinion.

      What you said about Ardern was that “Given that she generally travels on an Air Force jet the only inconvenience would seem to be the need to quarantine.”. Showing that she sometimes flies on air force planes or jets isn’t ‘generally’. By your apparent definition of ‘generally’, my few flights on air force planes and helicopters decades ago could be expressed that the air force are my personal airline that I generally use. Something that is false to fact.

      There was no ‘opinion’ in the first part of that sentence, the second part was opinion – and ludicrously false if the fact it was based on was false. It was also the kind of ‘fact’ that some moronic trolls would repeat like parrots for ever after. That irritates me.

      If you claim a fact as part of a debate here, then the responsibility is yours to prove it or even have a decent argument for saying it was correct. That is the core of having a robust debate. Now you appear to be now attempting weasel it down a mere opinion. Doesn’t work.

      You will either prove your assertion was at the very least to be something that can be argued about on the basis of verifiable facts, apologise to readers, or get a long arbitrary ban (that goes up each time that you waste my time). Which as a matter of fact becomes your choices because I won’t tolerate any others.

      I really don’t like people making claims of fact that are extremely unlikely. You can’t throw opinion off as being fact here without challenge and without sanction if you can’t support it. This is a place for robust debate and expressing peoples own opinions. It is not maintained for inventing magic ‘facts’ for political advantage and payment. In NZ that was known as the departed whaleoil site. ]

      • alwyn 15.4.1

        I am very impressed. I certainly wasn't capable of coming up with all the information you ask of me. To find that you are capable of, in just a few minutes, coming up with details of all the trips on Air Force planes taken by Key, English and Ardern was beyond my skills.

        That was even more beyond my meagre skills when you appear to have wanted me to break them down by type of trip and to be able to identify, at least by role, all the people who went on the trip including, I suppose, whether they were part of the PM's department, another department, the Press or private organisations. Even if you didn't want to know who they were you would seem to be capable of coming up with the number who were in each classification

        Is this really what you managed to do in a few minutes? How do you do it? Enlightenment would be much appreciated. What were the queries that you used?

        [lprent: Pointless diversion that doesn’t address the question of how you can show that your assertion of fact was in any way correct or arguable. My task was way simpler than your one because all I had to do was to seek any information that vaguely supported your made up garbage. Where as you appear to have to manufacture more idiotic bullshit arguments. I guess another day before I deal with you.

        BTW: I just scanned the first 4 pages of google on RNAF 757 and 40 squadron, had a quick search at Wikipedia site, a read through the 2019 NZDF report, and a search of Hansard on the parliamentary site.

        Plus of course I’ve been reading about the search for a replacement for the 757 and C-130s for quite a few years now in general background reading on the maintenance issues like this. ]

  16. RP Mcmurphy 16

    Watched tovid obrine alternatively trying to skewer the PM and then playing gossip columnist on newshub nationals yesterday. groomed to the max in black and red lippy. this morning she back on the telly trying to make out that her opinion on covid lockdowns carries more weight than the pm and the director of health. this time dressed in white no lippy and against a black backdrop so last nights excesses were not so obvious. my apologies for being so petty but if she wants to put herself up as a model of virtue and probity then it works both ways

  17. NZJester 17

    Republican have regularly been breaking rules 3 to 10 of the 10 commandments;

    Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain, Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy, Honour thy father and thy mother, Thou shalt not murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour, Thou shalt not covet

    But now it looks like they have found a way to get a full bingo of breaking all the10 Commandments by treating Trump as their god and worshiping idols of him.

    I think someone might have sent this as a joke, but those who claim to be Christians missed the fact they where breaking Rules 1 and 2 with it because most of them have never actually really read the bible, they just quote parts of it they have been told justify their bigotry.

  18. Ad 18

    22,000 seasonal workers needed within days in By of Plenty.

    Minimum picking wage for Kiwifruit is now $22.10.


    Sometimes markets work ok. The pressure on this rate can only go up now.

    • Foreign waka 18.1

      This is what is stipulated by government as the living wage hrl. rate.

      • gsays 18.1.1

        That would be the full time rate which would also have annual leave and sick days.

        I assume the kiwifruit picking is a casual contract. This hourly rate should be higher.

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