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Open mike 28/03/2020

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, March 28th, 2020 - 130 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

130 comments on “Open mike 28/03/2020 ”

  1. Molly 1

    Bit of mixed messaging coming out here from the Civil Defence director Sarah Stuart-Black.

    "Can I drive to where I want to exercise?

    Yes, but stay local.

    "If you're able to walk the dog around the block, it might not be the dog's idea of a good time but that will work," says Civil Defence director Sarah Stuart-Black. "You don't have to get in the car and drive."

    I'm thinking this probably could've waited a bit longer, and let the non-drive recommendations take time to get used to.

    We share the property with our tenants who have spent both days out visiting. Unfortunately, they have also invited others to the property and responded agressively when they arrived back home with more visitors and I informed them that the Alert 4 meant they should be at home by themselves (I was in on the front porch on the phone enjoying the sun when they got home). After asking what that meant, they then told me that they had been to the supermarket (while dressed in togs, with towels around their waists like the carload of previous visitors.)

    Any relaxation of driving rules will allow those who already aren't following them to self-justify.

    (BTW, any advice on how to deal with tenants without impacting on their rights in this matter would be appreciated. Have told them we don't care about where they go, but they cannot invite visitors to the shared property during the lockdown period. The second visitor was someone who does tattoos, and they couldn't do it at his house because he has seven kids…)

    • KJT 1.1

      What you can and can't do is pretty clear.

      The police, and some other organisations, as well as others with a strong authoritarian bias, appear to be making up their own rules, instead of doing their job, enforcing the rules Government has put in place.
      Making for unnecessary mixed messages and confusion.

      People getting told to go home here, when out walking with more than two, even though they are from the same, “bubble”, by the cops, for example.

      https://covid19.govt.nz/

      "You should stay at home as much as possible, except for going for a walk or picking up essentials. You should not enter other people’s houses or arrange meetings in public places.

      If you leave your home, keep a two metre distance from other people at all times. When you return home from being in public, thoroughly wash your hands. Stopping physical contact with people outside your household is the single most important thing we can do right now to stop further community transmission.

      Be kind. People may want to act as enforcers of others, but report any concerns to the correct authorities through nhccselfisolation@health.govt.nz.

      See more information on staying at home

      Can I use my car?

      Using private vehicles for transport is allowed. You can only travel if you’re accessing essential services, if you’re an essential worker, or if you’re driving to a local area for a walk or to exercise. You should only travel in your car with people from your household.

      Personal walks and other active travel like cycling or scootering, is fine, provided you keep a two metre distance from anybody outside of your household. Stick to simple outdoor exercise and avoid areas where you can get injured or lost. It’s important the emergency services remain available to support the response to COVID19".

      I would take that to mean rowing, kayaking, swimming and fishing in your local area, in sheltered water, is fine also, but the amount of people indulging their “control freak” about activities that actually have no effect on virus spread, so long as you can keep your distance, is amazing.

      I can understand why higher risk activities, such as power boating, and surfing, are discouraged.

      • Molly 1.1.1

        Thanks, KJT.

        We have a fairly good grasp of the restrictions.

        My question was more about how to deal with tenants on our shared property, who are not following the alerts, and inviting others back to our shared property without overstepping the mark as landlords – or infringing on their rights as tenants. (As well as noting, that the advice to drive to parks for leisure will be taken as justification for their current approach to Level 4).

        • KJT 1.1.1.1

          I think just pot them, link above, and say you are concerned to the authorities.

          Let them deal with it.

          • Carolyn_Nth 1.1.1.1.1

            Yes. There were a fair number of reports to the dob in line in the first day of lock down.

            The police are taking a community policing approach in the first instance – visiting the alleged offenders and explaining what is required for the lock down. They get tougher if people fail to heed their advice.

            There are some clueless people about. First day of lock down, a tweeter said they'd reported a neighbour who had about 50 people arriving for a barbeque. An idiot from somewhere in NZ told them to chill because this virus had been around since 2017 and nothing bad had happened. He provided a screenshot about SARS as his source.

            When we told him not the same virus, he said there were thousands more people die of the flu – and he said the fact that is not known is all a Big Pharma conspiracy.

          • Molly 1.1.1.1.2

            It is a bit difficult because we are on a shared property. We are landlords by default because we have a no longer required granny flat.

            Although we had issued a notice to end tenancy before the alerts, when the lifting to Level 3 and notice for Level 4 was announced, and it was apparent that their expected next dwelling had changed, we told them to consider it void and that they would be there for the duration of the lockdown. We will issue the notice again, when the lockdown lifts as my son wants to return to Auckland to look for work. However, that means minimum of four months with them in close proximity, more if we find ourselves moving in and out of Alert levels.

            They can be a bit threatening, bluster mostly. Along the lines of "I'm a madman, people don't piss me off because they know what I'll do" and "In my family, women don't speak" which kind of confirms their first statement. In the next instance he referred to his girlfriends tendency for violence and how we better watch out. My concern is that we still have teens at home, and how to avoid them having to deal with any fallout.

            I know what we can do legally. If the threats are considered we may also have the right to immediately evict.

            However, I was wondering if anyone had suggestions strategic approaches to deal with this that we could try out. Although they are not the most model of tenants, I want to avoid involving authorities if possible.

            • Molly 1.1.1.1.2.1

              Thanks, everyone. Have to participate in some lockdown renovations while the sun is shining, but appreciate the suggestions.

              Here's hoping they will settle down, and we only have to go on to the next step if another incident occurs.

        • anker 1.1.1.2

          I really feel for you Molly. That is a tough position to be in. I, like almost all of us who are giving up stuff in order to do the right thing would be very angry with your neighbours.

          Everyone reading this, I think Molly needs some help here i.e. our collective brain power to give her ideas of what to do.

          I would call the police (unless you think these people could be threatening towards you. I would tell the police I am concerned about repercussions and if they visit the neighbours (and they should) could they warn them if they retaliate in any way there will be very serious consequences.? The police may even be able to phone them as a first step.

          • Molly 1.1.1.2.1

            Thanks Anker. I think yours (and similar) will be the advice we'll follow if another incident occurs.

            Though I will be reluctant to involve the police in this matter, I'm sure that they are going to be under considerable pressure as it is.

      • Carolyn_Nth 1.1.2

        According to RNZ, kayaking is not fine. Anything likely to require emergency assistance means other people needing to come in close contact with you. I think that is also what Bloomfield said. Staying local also means less likely to need roadside assistance.

        The reporter in the video at the RNZ link said people should only be going to Mission Bay in Auckland, if they can walk there from home. I suspect it's more likely in more rural areas that people might be OK driving a short distance to their local beach.

        • Wayne 1.1.2.1

          Kayaking,

          Is it ok or not?

          I think it depends. So for instance in Ngataringa Bay, no kayaker could ever be more than 500 meters from the shore, and it is probable the water would be no more than 1.5 meters deep. At the very centre of the Bay it would be 2 meters. Bear in mind that is at high tide.

          So I can't see how going for a kayak on Ngataringa Bay could be a risk of any significance. Basically if you fell out, you can probably stand up and walk for about 75% of the Bay. Maybe people should stay away from the centre where it is deepest. In my 20 years living here, I have never seen anyone in trouble. I have seen a few centreboard dinghys tip over. But the people righted them, or in one case towed it to shore. But kayakers have never got into difficulty.

          Can you ever say there will never ever be problems, notwithstanding there have been none in the 20 years I have lived here. I guess not. But the risk has to be minute.

          So I guess it depends on the circumstances. For instance could a farmer go out and shoot rabbits on his/her farm? I would say, yes. Again there is a minute risk that they could shoot themselves.

          Life can't be totally risk free. No doubt there will be many accidents in the home and in the garden over the next four weeks. And we are not saying, don't garden.

          • Cinny 1.1.2.1.1

            A friend died kayaking a number of years back, he did not know he had epilepsy, and the glint of the sun off the water caused a seizure and he drowned. He was paddling in thigh high water in an estuary.

            A old boy died kayaking in the calm waters around Ruby Bay and Mapua the other week, he had a heart attack on the water.

            Both were competent kayakers. As for me, I've a kayak, and live a block from the beach but I'm going to wait, riding the waves is even more fun after a break from doing so.

            PS No one ever drowned in the vege garden

            • Andre 1.1.2.1.1.1

              No-one ever drowned in a vege garden, but plenty of people have had to go to hospital from gardening. Cuts, infections, legionnaires from compost and so on. Different activities, different hazards.

              • Cinny

                No one ever called out emergency services including the helicopter and coast guard for a gardening incident.

                Sure, different activities, different hazards, but perspective is everything.

                • Andre

                  Coastguard probably not, but helicopter definitely has happened. The incident I was closest to involved anaphylaxis from insect stings that got riled up by the gardening activities..

                  Then the medical care needed for something like legionnaires is vastly more demanding on medical facilities in comparison to the quick in-and-out that would be needed for almost all kayaking incidents.

                  Perspective indeed. I'm not arguing for or against gardening or kayaking. I'm arguing against claiming activity A should be allowed while activity B shouldn't, when activity B also has a lot of hidden factors that might also contribute to increasing the burden on our healthcare system.

                  • Cinny

                    That would of been scary as with stinging insects Andre and for KJT and the broken ankle. Hopefully they were once in a lifetime events for you both

                    It will be interesting looking back at ACC incidents post lock down.

                    Maybe part of being mindful doing 'approved' activities during the lockdown is having a plan B in-case something happens.

                • KJT

                  Well. I nearly had to call an ambulance, gardening.

                  Fell over and broke my ankle carting tree clippings.

            • KJT 1.1.2.1.1.2

              In fact. You are much more likely to need help from first responders, gardening or cycling, than kayaking.
              Just had a thought I may trigger people wanting gardening or cycling banned, now. Shit.

              I wouldn't go surf swimming or white water or ocean kayaking, though.

              • Cinny

                Dang, really? Crikey.

                Mental note, if there are high accident rates for housework, never ever tell the children, least they use it for leverage to escape their chores 🙂

                KJT, good idea re the article, a cabin fever post would be super helpful.

              • Carolyn_Nth

                It's hard to be certain about each instance of what's in or out during lock down. To some extent it requires common sense, and focus on the main aim.

                Many people staying home will choose to do DIY, but some care should be taken about taking unnecessary risks where a person could do themselves the kind of harm requiring emergency services.

                I am quite impressed by how the new neighbours have changed to adjust to lock down. No more tradies doing their major home and property upgrade.

                This morning the whole family is out – looks like making a garden. I'm not so impressed by the young man who just started using a pneumatic drill to drill some rock – not such a peaceful lock down for the hood.

              • Robert Guyton

                Countless people have died in bed – end the lethal practice, now!

              • Wayne

                Very good point about the comparison of risk. Bike riding is probably more risky than swimming in 1.5 meters of smooth water. All my sporting accidents have been bike riding related, some involving X-rays, physio, etc. either coming off the bike at speed, or in one case running into a parked car because I wasn't looking. These have been on longer rides, up to 160 k. But I have had incidents on local rides.

                Swimming, my major risk would be a heart attack, and in that case 1.5 meters of water would not necessarily be shallow enough. I keep myself quite fit, but all of us run a heart attack risk. Is that enough of a deterrent?

                So here is a thought for KJT, when you do your item on what is acceptable and what is not, it would worth checking the stats on various activities and their risk profile.

                As an example, people used to say about recreational flying that the biggest risk was driving to the airfield. It was completely wrong. A detailed analysis of accidents rates per hour of activity showed powered flight in small aircraft was 8 times more risky than driving a car. And Gliding was 32 times more risky. Motorcycling is about 8 times more risky than a car.

          • observer 1.1.2.1.2

            Sure, it may well be fine. Lots of regular water activities may be fine. But are they necessary?

            It's often called a "war" against the virus. People aren't being asked to survive the trenches of WW1, or the Blitz of WW2. We're not being conscripted to serve, and nobody has to be Willie Apiata.

            To be Heroes in this "war", we only need to make a tiny sacrifice in our leisure activity, because it is our best hope of saving lives.

            If we can't even manage that, then we should probably cancel all ANZAC Day services forever, because we are an embarrassment to those we honour.

            • KJT 1.1.2.1.2.1

              I planning on an article about that.

              I'll just say at the moment. Cabin fever is a real thing, for many people.

      • Rosemary McDonald 1.1.3

        So, you can drive to exercise?

        How come a friend drove to a largely deserted beach to walk her dog and was closely tailed by a police car? Which parked up her tailpipe until the other two police cars arrived to combine forces to coax two surfers out of the water?

        Mind you, In some parts if the rohe the constabularly do this kind of stuff just for shits and giggles while largely ignoring more serious doings like meth related crime.

        And then, when they're not intimidating grey haired women walking their dog, they wonder why ordinary law abiding folk struggle to respect them.

        I assumed that knocking on folks' suburban doors and getting up in their faces trying to sell them " moisturiser" would also be a no no. The jars contained a thick clear substance unlike any moisturiser I have ever seen.

        I sent Mr. Entrepreneur on his way, but when I could hear him banging away on the neighbouring doors loudly selling his wares I became a little concerned. The desperate, almost crazed look and his aggro reaction when I challenged him led me to call the Constables. I suspect I should have saved my breath.

        Those committing crimes Before in order to finance their lifestyles are often as cunning as shithouse rats. This is going to present untold opportunities.

        The police have been losing that battle already…and now they have dog walkers and surfers to deal with I'd hazard that other war is on hold.

        Interesting times.

    • observer 1.2

      Sounds like you're being very patient, Molly. A difficult situation.

      They are – like many people – obviously violating the spirit of the lockdown, big time. And I'm getting fed up with people saying "Oh, we need clearer guidelines", like they are 5 year olds. They're looking for excuses, not explanations. STAY HOME.

      When all this is over I hope we don't hear any more rubbish about "nanny state" and "individual responsibility". We've got the responsibility now, and some of us obviously can't handle it. There's a lot of Kiwis who don't need Mary Poppins, they need Robocop. STAY HOME.

      • KJT 1.2.1

        Most people we have observed over the past ten days, are being sensible.

        Even from a week ago, before the lock down, avoiding group activities and staying two metres apart.

        Some of my family went walking yesterday. Everyone they met crossed over, or stayed well away.

    • Cinny 1.3

      Wow, some people are super selfish.

      Send a text to 105 and report them.

      On a different note.
      Was wondering how P heads were going to get on during the lock down.
      All the weed growers will have pulled their plants, as it’s harvest time, so they will be happy in lockdown trimming and drying their pot.
      The boozers were able to stock up and some can still buy it, so they will be sorted.
      I’m predicting a few P busts as the police follow peoples movements. Not saying your neighbours are on P, just thinking out loud.

      • anker 1.3.1

        Everyone excuse my previous plea to help Molly. By the time I had written my bit a whole lot of other commenters had responded to her.

        Interested to see post text 105 Cinny. Is this a new way of dobbing people in?

    • JanM 1.4

      Next time they do it ring the police because they're obviously not listening to you

      • weka 1.4.1

        I'm in this camp. Explain clearly and calmly once, give them an online reference to something official (because then they know it's not just you). If they do it again, hand it over to the police or text number. We get one chance at not having community transmission and what we do in the coming week matters hugely.

        • Molly 1.4.1.1

          Thanks, weka. We had already had a talk with them about the issues, when we advised that they would be staying during the lockdown. Have also given them the official government site details.

          I think as most suggest, we will involve authorities if another incident occurs.

    • weka 1.5

      "I'm thinking this probably could've waited a bit longer, and let the non-drive recommendations take time to get used to."

      I think we should start as we mean to go on and get as many people as possible understanding that driving creates risks and should be limited.

      What is someone going to do if their car breaks down or is in accident? Are they going to expect someone else to give them a ride home? I'm not even sure that there re mechanics avaialble now (although emergency towing and AA etc still are functioning). This is why the stay local message makes sense. If something happens it's easier to manage.

      I've been thinking about this a fair bit, because I live in the country and it's normal to drive a distance to go for walk. Local is really going to depend on the person's situation and location. Needing to get out once a week somewhere in nature that's a 20 min drive, for mental health sake is different than going out every day to do stuff.

  2. aj 2

    Playing For Change is a movement created to inspire and connect the world through music, born from the shared belief that music has the power to break down boundaries and overcome distances between people.

    A remake of the Band's The Weight, from Music from Big Pink. A timeless classic featuring Ringo, Robbie, and other musicians from around the world. A great way to start the weekend.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph1GU1qQ1zQ

  3. KJT 3

    More information from health authorities for those that have "essential workers" in their household, which you all may find useful.

    Already finding this very difficult with three still working.

    "I'm an essential worker – what do I need to do to keep safe?

    Workers need to take reasonable care of their own health and safety, and the health and safety of others, while working. This means following and cooperating with any reasonable health and safety instructions, policies and procedures that you're given, to stay safe and to make sure you don't risk the health and safety of others that you come in contact with through your work. Work with your employer to help develop any new ways of working that are needed to keep you and others safe.

    In addition, there are a number of things people can do to keep safe when they get home.

    The most important thing for essential workers to do when they get home is to wash their hands immediately and practice good hygiene.

    This includes

    • Cough or sneeze into your elbow or by covering your mouth and nose with tissues.
    • Put used tissues in the bin or a bag immediately.
    • Wash your hands with soap and water often (for at least 20 seconds).

    before eating or handling food

    after using the toilet

    after coughing, sneezing, blowing your nose or wiping children's noses

    after caring for sick people.

    • Try to avoid close contact with people who are unwell.
    • Don’t touch your eyes, nose or mouth if your hands are not clean.
    • Avoid personal contact, such as kissing, sharing cups or food
    • Clean and disinfect frequently touched surfaces and objects, such as doorknobs.
    • Stay home if you feel unwell and call Healthline.

    If you are very concerned you may wish to:

    • Minimise close contact with people by avoiding situations where you have face-to-face contact closer than 1 metre for more than 15 minutes.
    • Use your own toothbrushes, eating and drinking utensils (including cups and glasses in the bathroom and bedroom), dishes, towels, washcloths or bed linen. Do not share food and drinks or prepare food for others. Wash your clothing and dishes separate to others in your home.
    • Clean surfaces like kitchen benches and sink tops after you use them and try to avoid touching them after you have cleaned them.
    • Make sure you use separate towels from other people in your house, both for drying yourself after bathing or showering and for drying your hands. Ask your family or the people you live with to remember to use their own towels.
    • If you use a shared toilet and bathroom, it’s important that you clean them every time you use them (for example, wiping surfaces you have come into contact with). You may wish to be the last to use the shower/bath in the morning or evening to make this easier on those you live with. You should use your own toilet paper, hand towels, toothpaste and other supplies during your self-isolation”.

    [Adjusted font size]

  4. mac1 4

    The Headmaster of a college at which I taught very memorably (forty five years ago) summed up the school rules in two sentences."Anything against common sense is against the school rules. Anything against the law is against school rules".

    Rabbi Hillel was asked to explain the Torah while standing on one foot. Hillel replied, "What is hateful to yourself, do not do to your fellow man. That is the whole Torah; the rest is just commentary. Go and study it".

    Jacinda Ardern has done something similar with her injunction to "act as if you yourself have the virus".

    • Craig H 4.1

      Good stuff. Jesus sums up the 10 commandments as love God and love your fellow man.

      • sumsuch 4.1.1

        Oh, I wish my bac sibs left it at that. But they continued on into bat crazy. It was always about themselves. Not reality.

    • Treetop 4.2

      I realise this is necessary and it is time consuming for an already tired frontline worker.

      I would like to see free nutritious meals provided at work for health workers and police officers. Supermarket workers need to have their hours reduced but be paid there usual hours.

      I am not sure of the percentage of people who are keeping the country running, they deserve respect, care and kindness.

      This comment was suppose to be 3.1

  5. Cinny 5

    United Kingdom Prime Minister Boris Johnson has tested positive for coronavirus and is self-isolating.

    "Over the last 24 hours I have developed mild symptoms and tested positive for coronavirus," Johnson announced on Twitter on Friday.

    "I am now self-isolating, but I will continue to lead the government's response via video conference as we fight this virus."

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/british-pm-boris-johnson-tests-positive-coronavirus-200327111847798.html

    • Carolyn_Nth 5.1

      Spot the differences between the UK government response and NZ.

      NZ parliament activities have been more strongly restricted at a much earlier stage than in the UK. So MPs now only meet physically with some other MPs and staff "inside their bubble".

      And still there are op eds in NZ media saying NZ should have gone into lock down a month or 2 earlier.

      A lock down requires a lot of logistical reorganisation, plus messaging to the general population.

      Things are still not totally clear or sorted in NZ, but consider all that's required: not just having the protective gear for front line workers, but working out which workers should get what and how many protective kits; deciding which businesses are essential when loads are trying to get classified as such, often for commercial reasons rather than the national good; preparing and organising the police and military for appropriate responses; changing benefits so all can survive; then all the responses to suspected and confirmed Covid-19 cases, including testing, contact tracing, health support…. and more.

      • Cinny 5.1.1

        Am seriously impressed at how fast the Covid-19 website was put together by our government. That's been super informative and helpful for us.

        Also with the warning we got by the PM, about being ready to move quickly when we were at level two. It helped our household so much in getting our heads around the lock down.

        My girls have been in lock down since last Sunday afternoon and every day it gets a bit easier. Sure we've had our moments, but they are adjusting really well.

    • Gabby 5.2

      How convenient for blobby, he'll have to take it easy(er).

    • Carolyn_Nth 5.3

      Idiot Johnson, possibly at the beginning of March, saying he continues to shake people's hands and has been in hospitals where there are patients with Covid-19 and he's been shaking everyone's hands.

  6. Cinny 6

    The Nation is on, live stream here. They are currently interviewing Jacinda.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/shows.html

  7. observer 7

    Understandably there is "information overload" at this time, so forgive me for this reminder –

    From the official site:

    COVID-19 can remain on plastic and stainless steel surfaces for up to about three days and less than that for other types of surfaces. This will depend on the surface.

    So when we go out for our "harmless" walks or drives, we need to avoid sitting on benches, opening gates, pressing buttons, and a hundred other things we do without even thinking.

    If your walk takes you far from any hand-washing, and you're not carrying something to wash/sanitise with, then it's too far.

    Distancing from people we see is not hard. Distancing from the virus is another matter.

  8. Adrian Thornton 8

    Krystal Ball talks about Tara Reade's Joe Biden sexual assault allegation and #MeToo's role.

    • Cinny 8.1

      Dodgy joe, have you seen his trump attack ad re the virus? It's off the hook, put's simon to shame. Will find the link later.

      Agent orange is about to do his daily update, stream here, updated with sound.

      Sorry for being so chatty on TS this morning, but when one is the only adult in the house it really helps with ones sanity.

    • Morrissey 8.2

      Tara Reade is not the first woman to be betrayed by the MeToo racket. Two years ago, as they paraded one after the other in their jewels and silk dresses, they studiously avoided even mentioning Ahed Tamimi….

      Middle east Teenagers

      Open Mike 03/02/2018

      • McFlock 8.2.1

        At the moment I'm trying to avoid some fringes of the commentariat, but curiosity compells me in this case. What on earth do those links have to do with the Metoo movement?

      • Adrian Thornton 8.2.2

        Thanks Morrissey that second link was a classic, I don't know why, but I keep forgetting how easily lead by the MSM to follow the party line so many of the regular contributors on TS are.

        I guess I just keep hoping that these obviously smart people will start using the critical thinking part of their brains at some point, But there is no sign of that happening any time soon… half the people on here at one point or another have shown some sort of support for Biden, have defended his obvious mental decline as "gaffs" etc…stupidly going along with the Biden nomination like bit characters from The Emperor's new clothes, it really feels like we are have entered pure fantasy land with Biden.

  9. A 9

    Watching this I felt that I had been very sheltered and naive.

    This discusses how foreigners are treated in China, and there is a little bit on how China responds to their own mistakes.

    • RedLogix 9.1

      Winston is an interesting character. He started out pretty much as a lifestyle blogger, but as Xi Xinping's regime has become increasingly authoritarian and hawkish he's started to become more political.

      There is a great deal hanging on the CCP's true intent as events unfold.

  10. ianmac 10

    Rod Oram has some good ideas about now and after.

    Over the next few months global economic activity will likely plummet more than the 15 percent it suffered during the first three years of the Great Depression.

    For the record, New Zealand’s GDP plunged 17 percent from 1929 to its nadir in 1931……

    Fourthly, as many businesses as possible across the economy should work out how they can drastically reduce human contact through online ways of working and serving customers. Huge creativity is vital.

    This might be the end of face to face shopping. Guaranteed germ/virus free home delivery might be the new norm?

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2020/03/27/1102149/we-face-two-herculean-efforts-to-save-economy?utm_source=Friends+of+the+Newsroom&utm_campaign=d19f92abcb-Week+in+Review+280320&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_71de5c4b35-d19f92abcb-95522477

    • Carolyn_Nth 10.1

      Home deliveries may be less risky re-germs than shopping in store, but right now there is no way they can be germ free. From supermarkets, there's no way of knowing who handled the products in the process of getting them into shopping bags (they use paper bags at cost of $1.00); then there's the potential germ contact from the deliverer.

      • Incognito 10.1.1

        The skin is a formidable barrier against infections. The key is to wash your hands properly after handling the deliveries and always wash your hands before eating and/or touching your face. If the virus doesn’t get to your respiratory system, it won’t get in and take hold. Paper bags are not a smooth surface and I’d imagine virus particles don’t transfer all that efficiently back to humans. Just don’t eat the paper bag when you’ve emptied it 😉

        • Carolyn_Nth 10.1.1.1

          The GP receptionist I talked to on the phone recommended disinfecting all groceries that arrive in the house and letting dry before storing. My first home delivery arrived in the last hour (I thought they were coming on Sunday?).

          Anyway, I tried wiping down all the frozen veg packages plus stuff that needs to go in fridge pretty quickly, and other stuff for the freezer with disinfectant on paper towel – that's all pretty tricky really. Left the rest to sit in the bags for a few hours, and washed hands 2-3 times in the process.

          • Incognito 10.1.1.1.1

            I’m not sure that trying to wipe everything is necessarily a good thing as it could spread things around. Too much of a ‘good’ thing can backfire. My suggestion is to try avoiding contact between what you put into your mouth and the outside packaging. Don’t put packed groceries on the kitchen bench for easy unpacking. Keep the food preparation area separate from others. Don’t use one cloth for everything – IIRC there are many stories from way before COVID-19 on how to keep your kitchen cloth germ free. Don’t become paranoid.

            • Carolyn_Nth 10.1.1.1.1.1

              That sounds better. I won't try the wipe down of groceries again. Just doesn't work.

              • KJT

                Suggest unpacking grocery bags at the door, and throwing them in the washing machine.

                • Carolyn_Nth

                  Yep. Sound like good advice for those doing their own shopping. Supermarket home deliveries are in paper bags. I understand they don't have an easy surface for virus drops to land and stay on, but I'll just leave them where they are for a couple of days.

      • ianmac 10.1.2

        Maybe the day will come when courier/delivery vans are fitted out as fumigation units. Order online and have delivered "clean"items. Rod says think of innovative ways to adapt.

    • pat 10.2

      Oram does outline the near future problem but mispurposes the current Government largesse…

      "Governments have started to put money into people's hands to stimulate the economy, writes Rod Oram. Now we need to start restoring business activity and consumer spending"

      The current packages purposes isnt economic stimulus but rather life support and capacity banking…but he does have a much better handle on the impacts than some others as demonstrated in this other Newsroom piece

      https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2020/03/27/1103673/how-covid-19-has-shocked-the-global-economy

      • Incognito 10.2.1

        Am I missing something? Where and how can people spend their money when we are in lockdown and at Alert Level 4?

        • pat 10.2.1.1

          no you are not missing anything….that is precisely why it isnt a stimulus package….that is yet to come (one would assume)

          • Incognito 10.2.1.1.1

            yes

            • pat 10.2.1.1.1.1

              There is another obvious concern with his recovery strategy….

              "A good way to begin expanding economic activity would be to allow courier services to resume handling non-essential items. E-commerce could then play a bigger role. TradeMe’s website gives a very clear explanation how restricted the current trading system is.

              But for e-commerce to function, businesses and government would also need to design protocols for warehouses and fulfilment centres to operate. Currently, we are far more restrictive than some other countries. In the US, for example, Amazon is still functioning, albeit for essential items; and in many US states restaurants have switched to doing takeaways only delivered by services such as Uber Eats."

              Im not sure encouraging e commerce is a sound idea when the bulk of those goods will be imported and we have just seen our largest foreign currency earner wiped out for the foreseeable…..

              https://tia.org.nz/about-the-industry/quick-facts-and-figures/

              Whatever programme that is designed to mop up the unutilised capacity will have to have at least one eye on that fact.

        • Poission 10.2.1.2

          The only defense against CV at present is non pharmaceutical intervention ie lockdown and limited self quarantine.

          History seems to show that early intervention to contain has better economic outcomes with recovery.

          https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3561560

          Keeping the drawbridge up internationally is also a must.

    • dv 11.1

      Yes I thought so too. I don't know why stuff published it. Balance?

      As an aside I am working on a plan for investment in the markets.Not got the timing quite right yet
      I call it hindsight.

      • Chris 11.1.1

        I guess Stuff was duped by Elers' pathetic ploy to avoid accusations of political bias by calling Hone Harawira a leader.

    • bwaghorn 11.2

      Hes the same type of fukwit that if in 4 months we've stamped this bug out will write an article saying how the government overreacted and caused economic chaos because of it .

      • Chris 11.2.1

        Now that Bridges' comms people have told him to take the 'we're all in this together' line I guess someone has to do it. The irony is that you could bet your house on Bridges acting way way later: "We need to balance people's health needs with the health of the economy…" and "without a healthy economy we'd have no health system".

    • Andre 11.3

      Well, a quick google turns up links to kiwibog and that other defunct sewer. Haven't got the stomach to click on them, sorry.

      But absolutely nothing to suggest his opinion on epidemiological matters has any value whatsoever. That suggests he's another one of these academics scamming off his title to lend false credibility to his reckons totally outside his competence.

      https://www.massey.ac.nz/massey/expertise/profile.cfm?stref=656350

      • Psycho Milt 11.3.1

        Oh great, someone else from Massey publishing illiberal commentary. On top of being the anti-freedom-of-speech university it now gets to be the ignorance-based-reckons university. I hope I get to retire soon.

    • SPC 11.4

      Oh nice posted while writing and then claims its a duplicate and denies me the right to edit it.

      His past columns were 

      1. Waitangi Day column criticism of the PM as just words with no action on home building

      2. a column supporting the value of a communications degree where he suggests that despite being a lightweight the PM has succeeded because of her communications degree based capacity to network.

      3. March column supporting Oz deporting Kiwis and opposing the PM standing up for the rights of Kiwis there

      No column advocating a tougher response to Coronavirus threat or attacking any other government for having to resort to lockdowns

      Prediction – he seeks to stand for the Maori Party and be part of a National led government.

    • Gabby 11.5

      So NOW Stoive knew right from the start. How fortuitous.

      • observer 11.5.1

        Either he knew it all, and did not use his regular platform in a major media outlet to tell the rest of us. Not once. Or … he's lying.

        He should be charged with criminal negligence. Except of course … he's lying.

    • observer 11.6

      Elers' column itself is bad enough.

      What's worse is the Stuff Comments policy, where there's an outpouring of deranged misinformation, and then comments are closed so nothing can be rebutted.

      Stuff journos have been doing a terrific job on Covid19, especially in the past week when they must have been working overtime.

      Elers undermines them all.

  11. SPC 12

    I am still waiting for the mash up of My Sharona and Maxine remade as My Corona Vaccine … tick … tick

  12. Hooch 13

    Apart from preventing covid-19 what else might the lockdown stamp out? Will we see no cases of seasonal flu or the common cold for the rest of the year if everyone is cleaning like mad and isolating for a month or more breaking the chain? What about headlice in school kids if they’re not mixing for so long? Interesting times ahead.

    • bwaghorn 13.1

      Less car crashes. Drunken chaos on Friday and Saturday. The ers are possibly having some well earned quiet before the possible storm

  13. Morrissey 14

    John Pilger: Vanessa Baraitser achieves infamy for her wicked cruelty

    This outrage is happening in Britain in 2020, but the contempt for justice and the inhumanity of these "authorities" could be from the Soviet Union in 1938….

    https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/thread/1585233407.html

  14. mauī 15

    The next 4 weeks is the perfect time to be doing all those disruptive roadworks and rail upgrades across the country.

    • RedLogix 15.1

      That looks like an attractive idea at first glance, but what you see happening out on site is only the tip of a much larger iceberg of engineering and supplier activity all feeding into it.

  15. Carolyn_Nth 16

    The guy doing the Covid-19 daily 1pm update (Bloomfield is having a day off) said "don't be an idiot" – basic hygiene, 2 meter distance and stay local. Don't travel to your holiday home.

    Apparently some groups of people in parks have been throwing frisbies to each other, and playing touch rugby.

    And RNZ reports the police are in a bit of a stand-off with a load of boaties anchoring in Great Barrier Island harbours for the lock down. They are using the supermarket on the island, and putting a lot of strain on the island resources.

    • KJT 16.1

      The boaties at the Barrier was nearly us. We were using that as a way of avoiding people, before the lockdown. Then several days of Westerly gales stopped us getting back.

      Didn't want to have any risk of causing a coast guard callout, by sailing into strong winds, so had to wait until Wednesday to come back.

      We did consider staying there, but thought would be better at home. If we had a larger boat equipped and stored for a long period, we may have stayed out.

  16. Bruce 17

    Good old national Denise Lee has the postman out the delivering potentially virus laden spam to tell me after 9 yrs of destruction she is there for me.

    Most of the annoyance comes from her clever marketing, addressed to the residents, a peak in side says covid 19 so i think its important and get it out to read.

  17. joe90 18

    Everything is OK but they're planning to euthanise the untermensch.

    • KJT 18.1

      Not a big step. They already have Governors saying over 60's are expendable, "for the sake of the economy".

    • joe90 18.2

      Fucker's getting his Stalin on.

      • Anne 18.2.1

        Did you listen to the livestream of the latest Trump presser Cinny @ 8.1 linked to this morning?

        Rambling garbage that went on and and on and on… and he said nothing except everything was great, beautiful and that his advisers were the best in the world and that America was the greatest country in the world and every thing was going to be hunky dory (no, he didn't say hunky dory but something similar) and standing alongside him was a grinning neanderthal – have no idea who he was – who looked like he had just emerged from hill-billy country and had been shoved into a suit.

        At one point he said: they're building a lot of things in New York that they have never builded before.

        "Builded" for God's sake! What he was talking about… who knows.

        Frankly I've got to the point where I think America deserves everything that is coming to them because they have demonstrated utter cowardice in kow-towing to an unhinged crackpot who is looking more and more like a cross between Stalin and Hitler.

  18. joe90 20

    Surprise surprise..

    The reliability of China’s coronavirus numbers is under question once again in view of the staggering amount of urns being distributed out in Wuhan.

    According to official Chinese government data, 50,006 people were infected with the Covid-19 virus in Wuhan with 2,535 dying from the disease.

    However, Chinese investigative outlet Caixin reports that when mortuaries opened back up this week in the Hubei capital, people had to wait in line for as long as five hours to receive the remains of their loved ones lost during the epidemic.

    […]

    Urns are reportedly being distributed at a rate of 500 a day at the mortuary until the Tomb Sweeping Day holiday, which falls on April 4 this year.

    Wuhan has seven other mortuaries. If they are all sticking to the same schedule, this adds up to more than 40,000 urns being distributed in the city over the next 10 days.

    http://shanghaiist.com/2020/03/27/urns-in-wuhan-far-exceed-death-toll-raising-more-questions-about-chinas-tally/

    • RedLogix 20.1

      Thanks for this. About 3 weeks ago I conveyed similar information that my sources were telling me the real toll in Wuhan was at least 10 times what was being officially claimed … but I was lambasted for scaremongering.

      Again a great deal hinges on the CCP's real intent here.

    • RFA (Radio Free Asia) – admittedly not an unbiased source – points out that just one cremetory (?) working round the clock could cremate all 2500 bodies in a week. Wuhan has seven such, all working round the clock for over 2 months.

      Best estimate is over 40,000 deaths, probably closer to 48,000.

      CCP transparency anyone?

  19. Bazza64 21

    I see an update from the government re Covid 19 subsidies for employees (of importance to part timers)

    https://www.business.govt.nz/news/covid-19-latest-news-and-updates?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=SE_CV_28Mar2020&utm_content=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.business.govt.nz%2Fnews%2Fcovid-19-latest-news-and-updates

    • will pay named employees, at a minimum:
      • for any work they do at their normal rates
      • at least 80% of income where reasonably possible (for employees working reduced hours while self-isolating)
      • the full subsidy received for each named employee, where their pay is below the subsidy rate.

    Subsidy rates

    Payment rates under the modified wage subsidy scheme are unchanged from the original COVID-19 leave and wage subsidy schemes. They are:

    • $585.80 (gross) per week for full-time employees, where full-time is 20 hours or more per week
    • $350 (gross) per week for part-time employees, where part-time is less than 20 hours per week.

    So it looks like if you are a part timer (less than 20 hours per week) & you earn say $150 gross, your employer has to pass on the full subsidy to you as employee – a huge win for some part timers – who should be paid $350 per week during the shutdown period if their employer has received a subsidy for them.

    The govt will at some stage have available on the internet all businesses that received the wages subsidy, so if you are a part timer, check you receive your full entitlement !!

  20. Bazza64 22

    It may be unfair, but when you get govt paying out subsidies based on simple calculations to get the money out fast to employees, you are bound to have some winners & some losers in the scheme.

    Just thought it best to let people know their entitlements, but this is a moving space & things could change quickly.

  21. Bazza64 23

    Update to my previous post – it seems the rules re full $350 payments to part timers only applies to employer subsidy applications received from 4pm on 27 March 2020.

    Sorry like everything it is more complex than thought – part timers may or may not be entitled to the full $350 per week depending when their employer lodged the claim with WINZ.

    I'm sure this is not the end of the matter as Incognito has shown there is already push back from National on this one.

    • Incognito 23.1

      She [the PM] said one of the questions she keeps getting asked was around the wage subsidy.

      "As you know, the wage subsidy is roughly $585 per week for full-time and $350 for part-time and goes straight to employers."

      She asked employers to do their best to pay their workers at least 80 per cent of what they would usually be paid.

      "For those part-time workers who might be earning less than that amount, really what we are asking employers is to pay [their workers] what their normal hours would be." [my italics]

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12320607

  22. Bazza64 24

    It seems what Jacinda is saying about payment to part time employees is in conflict with the press releases from business.govt.nz

    • Incognito 24.1

      No, I don’t think that’s the case and I think it is actually quite clear:

      Wage rates for employees

      If you are receiving the COVID-19 Wage Subsidy, you must try your hardest to pay the employee named in your application at least 80% of their usual wages. If that isn’t possible, you need to pay at least the subsidy rate (ie, full-time or part-time).

      If your employee's usual wages are less than the subsidy, you must pay them their usual wages. Any difference should be used for the wages of other affected staff – the wage subsidy is designed to keep your employees connected to you. [my italics]

  23. Muttonbird 25

    Simon's done his own Facebook speech to the nation.

    He has an 0800 number right wing voters can call to give information with which to attack the government at the next election. I'm thinking meat-eating National voters who can't access their butcher of choice, etc.

    He has 55 MPs ready to hear stories about how the government didn't get it perfect in the greatest civil and economic disturbance in modern times.

    Simon's Facebook speech and 0800 number seem more like a PR exercise in relevancy rather than anything useful to the people most affected.

  24. Bazza64 26

    Incognito you are correct, business.govt.nz has just updated the current position on its website at 6.20 pm tonight which ties in with Jacinda’s statements. Their post from yesterday which I was referring to has now been changed.

  25. sumsuch 27

    Staying away from people by 2 metres in the open air seems to be the biz. The supermarket is much more dangerous — what did I touch last? Staying home is about enforceability. The govt went with clarity over the increasing Mishnah interpretations of the Torah of their new laws.

    Going to the shops is still a crap shoot, for me with no disinfectant anyway.

  26. Times, they are a-changing

  27. Eco Maori 30

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    Those young tourists look like they don't give a stuff.

    I had a surprise when I went to the supermarket.

    That's is cool those people living in a camper van with a baby getting a whare in the South Island it would be cold there now.

    Ka kite Ano

  28. Eco Maori 31

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    I know what he was saying about the prices.

    Awhi A health care worker is cool.

    Ka kite Ano

  29. Eco Maori 32

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    That's is great working Kiwis being payed the weekly alounce in Australia.

    Ka pai to the people helping our elderly their are quite a few of them living alone some would need help.

    Its good to see the worlds carbon footprint shrink.

    Ka kite Ano

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