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Open mike 28/06/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 28th, 2021 - 141 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

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The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

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141 comments on “Open mike 28/06/2021 ”

  1. millsy 1

    Is it just me, or has Glenn Greenwald shifted to the right over the past year or two? He seems to support Trump, and also, more disturbingly, seems to claim to be in favour of civil liberties, but is now very pro police being able to gun down blacks like dogs in the middle of the street.

    I have emailed him to clarify these views, but he never replied.

    • Incognito 1.1

      Would you please be so kind to include a link, so that we can all be on the same page?

      • millsy 1.1.1

        Just scroll through his twitter feed. The guy wants to give police in the USA power to give out summary executions.

        • Incognito

          In that case, please provide a link to his Twitter feed. Not everybody here is on Twitter and they might still want to access it through a browser, as I tend to do from time to time. Ideally, please provide a link to one or two specific Twitter feeds that support your comment. Don’t expect others to do the digging.

        • Adrian Thornton

          Yes provide a link to show us all where Greenwald has said or even implied that supports "police being able to gun down blacks like dogs in the middle of the street." and "guy wants to give police in the USA power to give out summary executions."..if you cannot provide those links, I believe these comments really need to be removed.

          • SPC

            Given my browser no longer works with the toolbar here I cannot link to it, but Greenwald’s current focus on Twitter is that Democrats are not taking public concerns about violent crime as seriously as they do their own security on Capitol Hill (and he claims that because Biden has not done anything for Assange this means he wants to criminalise journalism).

            Which is not support for police doing summary executions, but is, what it is.

            • Adrian Thornton

              So in other words millsy is just making shit up…..those comments should really be moderated, not that I am trying to tell moderators how to do their job, but millsy's comments seem to be straight out slander.

              • francesca

                Jonathan Cook is a really thoughtful and thought provoking journalist.

                No wonder he was chucked off the Guardian .They refused to print his dispatches from Jerusalem because they didn't reflect the core values of the Guardian (not pro Israel enough)


                • francesca

                  Sorry , should have included a bit more info about the link

                  an excerpt

                  “Others on the left recoil from this approach. They warn that, by fixating on Trump, elements of the left have drifted into worryingly authoritarian ways of thinking – sometimes openly, more often implicitly – as a bulwark against the return of Trump or anyone like him.”

              • millsy

                It is there plain is day. He is starting to carry on about crime – that has always been used as an exuce to let cops gun down and beat up who they damn well please,

                • McFlock

                  Here's his twittering.


                  • millsy

                    All my points illustrated there and then. You simply cannot be in favour if civil liberties if you support the right of cops to beat and shoot whoever they like.

                    The guy would have supported the KKK and lynching back in the day.

                    • McFlock

                      I'm not entirely sure I'd go that far to describe his content. Can you quote the one about beating and shooting whomever they'd like?

                    • millsy

                      Its all implied….

                    • Sacha

                      The only mention of police I could see in his last few dozen tweets:

                    • Sacha

                      Your mouth seems to be writing a lot of cheques that the evidence can't cash, millsy.

                    • millsy

                      Glenn Greenwald supports a massive crackdown on civil liberties to fight crime. Its right there, plain as day. The guy is a charlatan, plain and simple.

                      He probably thought that George Floyd deserved to die,

                      [you have made a number of allegations about Greenwald and still not provided a single specific example (i.e. tweet) to support these. It definitely looks like you’re making up shit.

                      You’re now in Pre-Moderation until you provide links to specific tweets to support all of your allegations made today here on OM about Greenwald or until you withdraw each and every one of them or until you’ll be moved to the Ban list for a while – Incognito]

                    • Incognito []

                      See my Moderation note @ 2:36 pm

                    • Sacha

                      Plain as day. When did you stop beating your wife?

                • Adrian Thornton

                  @millsy, just as a matter of interest do you also believe that Trump was enabled by Putin?..just wondering, as your desperate efforts to extrapolate that bullshit out of Greenwalds tweets is giving me flash backs to that mad debunked conspiracy theory and the tortured logic that often went with it.

    • Brigid 1.2


      It is just you.

  2. Jimmy 2

    Hopefully this guy gets a decent sentence handed down from the judge that will actually act as a deterrent.


  3. Jimmy 3

    Well these two wont be "parents of the year". A shame these kids weren't taken away from the parents.


    • Foreign Waka 3.1

      Yeah, nahh… everybody has their eyes peeled on other issues. Drugs and alcohol not that much. Child violence, poverty and child death has not improved despite so many promises. But we have 16 billion to give for corporate welfare. Feelin so much better…sarc.

  4. Jenny how to get there 4

    Can we stop global warming climate change?

    We are quite capable of stopping climate change

    Will we stop global warming/climate change?

    No we won't


    Because there is no political will to do so.

    ……our assessment didn’t need to split hairs in this way. The evidence was overwhelming.

    …..Deep decarbonisation requires that we reduce anthropogenic emissions in the first place. In fact, we need a year-on-year reduction in emissions from now until 2050, roughly equivalent to the 7% reductions seen during the COVID-19 pandemic.

    …..To study the social dynamics needed for such a rapid transformation, we looked at ten social drivers of decarbonisation: United Nations climate governance, transnational initiatives, climate-related regulation, climate protests and social movements, climate litigation, ….

    …..Though the 1.5°C target might be possible, there are currently no grounds for optimism that we will meet it. But perhaps our findings will provide exactly the motivation we need to make it happen.


    We need to be that 'motivation’, ‘to make it happen'.

    These wilful criminals need to be sued and protested against for all they are worth.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • Jenny how to get there 4.1

      OK Boomer

      Those most at risk from Cov-19 are in the older age bracket.

      Those most at risk from climate change are the young people.

      Maybe this explains the difference between the extraordinary efforts taken to prevent covid-19 and the lackluster efforts taken to prevent climate change.

      Climate change anxiety: Young people 'feel hopeless'

      By Steffan Messenger
      BBC Wales Environment Correspondent

      "The most soul-crushing thing is not being optimistic about [climate change].

      "It's something I'm quite worried about that isn't going to be sorted fast enough. We're already seeing effects at the moment. Not enough is being done."

      "The government should not see this as something that is just a problem for young people – the other way of actually tackling climate anxiety is to do something about climate change."

      Regular surveys by Cardiff University's school of psychology have shown a big shift in people's attitude to climate change in recent years – with 40% of those polled across the UK now saying they are "very or extremely worried" about it.

      A third said it triggered feelings of anxiety, fear or outrage.


      We need to harness our outrage to demand that our governing bodies do something about it.

  5. Sacha 5

    Detailed analysis of SUFW's stance – not my content and I am not in a position to comment on it but I figure people here deserve to have access to it. https://postingdad.medium.com/speak-up-for-what-d3d7a7cecab9

    • millsy 5.1

      SUFW is a group set up to wage war on the trans community.

      You will find that it is the God-people that are jerking their chain if you dig deep enough.

      [please provide some evidence that Christians control SUFW or retract the assertion – weka]

      [assertion has now been retracted below – weka]

      • Incognito 5.1.1

        Look, Sacha can post links to Tweets.

        • Sacha

          Um, the trick is to put the link on a line of their own here and this system expands them out automatically.

          • Incognito

            Your tip is handy, thank you.

            The trick is to put just a tiny little bit of effort into it and when it fails, ask for technical assistance here.

      • Janice 5.1.2

        I understand the SUFW is trying to protect the rights of women and also women only spaces. They are also trying to stop children being encouraged to transition rather than growing up gay. Its seems to me that it is the trans movement that is more likely to be funded by fundamental religious groups. A man with long hair, high heels, makeup and wearing a dress is still a man and no matter how deluded will always be a man.

        [Janice, my commitment here as a moderator and feminist is to try and prevent the gender/sex war taking place on TS. The boundaries around robust debate and not using language that effectively excludes others is different from elsewhere. Your comment is a problem in two ways (plus the request below re funding):

        1. By saying that TW are merely cross dressing men you make invisible TW with gender dysphoria and TW as a gender identity. You can make the argument on both those points but I’m going to ask you be less offensive in how you do that (consider the TW reading and those who may want to take part in the conversation) and that you do in fact make the argument if you want to post the opinion).
        2. saying that TW are deluded is akin to saying women are hysterical ie as a class are deficient.

        I’m figuring out how to moderate in this debate, so I hope you will take more care. It’s always fine to ask for clarification – weka]

        • Red Blooded One

          Jasus. There is no equivalence to be being Trans or Gay other than their fight for acceptance in society. When I grew up when it was illegal to be Gay it didn't mean I started wearing frocks.

          "A man with long hair, high heels, makeup and wearing a dress is still a man and no matter how deluded will always be a man.?"

          Do you have any idea, or care, how offensive comments like this are.

          If your comment is reflective of religious bigotry or the SUFW movement then you, churches and the SUFW should STFU

          • weka

            I also think it’s incredibly offensive and will be keeping an eye on this as a moderator.

          • Adrian Thornton

            " When I grew up when it was illegal to be Gay it didn't mean I started wearing frocks."…Wonder how Quentin Crisp would have got on in today's climate?

            Whatever the answer, here is an incredible interview of an extremely interesting man who was on the forefront of being openly gay in the UK…

            • Red Blooded One

              yes I think the very brave Mr Crisp would be a very "happy camper" in todays society and I, for one, am grateful to him so we can ride on his beautifully bloused shoulders.

          • Foreign Waka

            Janice possible means physically – which may well be true. We shouldn't be so touchy about expressions before we found out what is meant. Some in this forum have English as their second language. If we really care, we care about everybody and their perspective. How else can you get consensus even if it is that there are different opinions?

        • weka

          As with Millsy, can you please provide the evidence that the trans rights movement is funded by religious fundamentalist groups.

        • weka

          For clarity and with regard to the nature of the debate, when you say man you mean biologically make right?

          Are you saying that trans women as a group are deluded?

        • weka

          Mod note for you Janice

        • greywarshark

          Janice just make your points quietly and reasonably and don't bring in suggestions that feel like hyperbole likely to arouse emotions from either side of the debate. Just saying, from experience.

      • Nic the NZer 5.1.3

        Do you know of any legitimate organisations which advocate for womans rights (especially where they conflict with trans rights)? Or are they all transphobic by doing that advocacy?

      • weka 5.1.4

        Mod note for you Millsy.

      • Anker 5.1.5

        Thanks Weka. Millsy, where is your evidence. A claim like that needs to be backed up or please retract.

        I know your claim to be absolutely false.

    • Sacha 5.2

      New tweet to start from/share:

      • Rosemary McDonald 5.2.1

        Not so very long ago The Science declared that human brains do not mature until about 25 years of age.

        Speak Up For Women quite rightly have grave concerns about teenagers being encouraged to undergo life altering chemical and surgical 'therapies'.

        Watchful waiting and talking therapies are more appropriate.

        Pro child-transitioning 'advocates' have declared this treatment approach to children and young people experiencing gender dysphoria as 'denying them access to healthcare'.

        • McFlock

          Just wait for the right wing to take those grave concerns and apply them to general sexual health matters, including contraception and abortion.

          • Rosemary McDonald

            Just wait for the right wing ….

            Do you really think this is a left wing/right wing issue?

            If you read widely on the topic you'll find that some of the most gender (ideology) critical feminists were firmly planted in the Left. Until they began to speak up about the impact on women and girls of accepting without question that 'transwomen are women'. Then the pile on from the wokest left drove them away.

            Not to the right…btw…but away.

            IMHO I don't believe the traditional definitions of 'Left' and "right' apply anymore.

            • McFlock

              Nah, I think the trans thing is as much of a generational issue as a political issue.

              But social conservatives (i.e. the "right wing") will take the UK court findings about teenage consent for medical procedures and apply them to other medical procedures. Like abortion and contraception.

              the people opposed to any sort of sex ed in schools will sure want to stop teens asking the doc for the pill.

      • Anker 5.2.2

        I suggest the person on Twitter who asks so many questions about SUFW attends one of their public meetings to find some answers……….The group that has been referred to as a hate group, which the High Court found was patently not true, is now able to hold meetings in Council premises as the High Court concluded was their democratic right.

        Usually the research that is used to determine health decisions in Aotearoa, is from overseas, e.g Covid vaccines. NZ doesn't have the same population or funding to undertake Gold Standard research. BTW NICE guidelines on puberty blockers are that there is little evidence to support them improving gender dysphoria, mental health and Body image. They are experimental. I am sorry I don't have a link at hand, but promise to post later. I am running late today!

        • Sacha

          When you have some time I suggest you read his blog post that answers all those questions.

          • Anker

            Didn't click on it sorry Sacha. Will do so.

            Ok just had a quick glance and will need more time from me but will do later.
            My understanding is that SUFW was the BDMR bill kept as it is where a small number of people, because that is all it is, have to apply to the family court and have a medical exam to change their birth cert. NB my understanding is that genital surgery is not a requirement of this

          • Anker

            Sacha I just got home from work. The blog you posted has a hell of a lot of information in it. I am to comment on my views in this area. I am not SUFW nor am I a member.

            Reading through it I agree with most of SUFW views. So maybe I will comment on all these areas tonight on Open mike if I get to or or tomorrow.

    • Sacha 5.3

      Relatedly, a recent NZ opinion piece about priorities in women's sport: https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/women-in-sport/300341029/the-biggest-threat-to-womens-sport-is-not-the-inclusion-of-transgender-athletes

      Since Laurel Hubbard’s naming in the New Zealand Olympic team this week, there’s been a flurry of discussion about the inclusion (or exclusion) of transgender women in women’s sport and the need to protect women’s rights.

      It’s fantastic to see how women’s rights and women’s sport are all of a sudden coming to the fore. Now that you are so interested in women’s sport let’s talk about the big threats facing women in sport.

      It’s not the inclusion of transgender women.

  6. weka 6

    [general mod note on the sex/gender debate:

    1. I’ll be moderating to maintain TS kaupapa of robust debate that doesn’t use language or tone to exclude people. Please read the Policy.

    2. I’ll also be moderating to prevent the war that is happening elsewhere from happening here. I expect a level of respect for people even where there is disagreement on position or politics.

    3. I suggest people read mod notes and comments over time to learn where the boundaries are. There are examples in Open Mike today.

    4. on days I am busy I won’t have time to explain and will be more using the mod tools like pre mod and short bans to take the heat out of the debate if it’s getting out of hand. I will try and give warnings.

    5. other mods will make decisions about how to moderate, this is a statement about my own approach. We do discuss moderation in the back end.

    6. It’s always ok to ask questions if unclear on boundaries or TS debate culture

    7. I’d really like to see TS as an exemplar of how to debate the gender/sex issues, and would appreciate all sides helping with that]

  7. millsy 7

    Ok, I retract the statement made earlier on this morning about SUFW.

    • Anker 7.1

      Thanks Millsy. I respect that. I think we all make assumptions and I appreciate your retraction

  8. millsy 8

    For what it is worth about the Laurel Hubbard saga, does anyone know if she has had gender reassignment surgery and is she now legally female on her birth certificate? If no to either, then she shouldn't go.

    Transgender athletes should be required to undergo full transition before competing. That is the best solution for everyone.

    • weka 8.1

      AFAIK you don’t need to surgically transition to change BC sex in NZ.

      why should surgery be necessary for inclusion in Olympic sport?

    • Anker 8.2

      Hi Millsy the competitive advantage that Laureen has over female weight lifters starts with testosterone in the womb. If you want a link to that I will find it but it was from a scientist at Otago medical school. Once puberty kicks in the advantage increases significantly. If a man has his testicles removed he will produce very little testosterone. But going through male puberty already gives the advantages of a larger heart, larger lungs with greater capacity, larger bones, more haemoglobin, a specific type of muscle which gives men an advantage, height, hand size for sports like rugby. Men also are faster than women, the fastest 10,000men on the planet can out run the one fastest women. Some of these men are 14 years old and some are 50. The two articles I posted today on transgender in sport cover it well.

      • Sacha 8.2.1

        Yet Lauren Hubbard is the first trans athlete who has qualified to compete in an Olympics.

        • Anker

          Yes this is why the issues is being debated. The Olympic committee only changed the trans gender regulations in 2015 or thereabouts.

          But in the States Trans women BMX riders are competing with women and winning titles. Same in Italy.

          Obviously sporting bodies are aware of the transgender issue and trying to formulate policy. It is something to be addressed, even if at this stage it is just Laureen Hubbard. Allowing trans women to play rugby with women will not only be unfair, it will be dangerous.

          There is a proposal that there are two sporting categories women and other and I support this. I think in doing this it allows for fairness to women and girls, while not depriving anyone of the chance to compete.

          Afterall it is bodies that play sport, not identities.

          • RedBaronCV

            I am totally confused about this debate as I think are many others. So i'll ask for a little information.

            Setting aside what people do in the privacy of their own homes (who cares about how many Teddy bears they share a room with) what are the issues when it comes to Public facing interactions such as playing sport or using spaces that are used or classified as "male" or "female".

            Are we looking at three groups female, interzone and male or is it going to stick with two groups? If we stick with two groups do interzone (regardless of medical procedures undertaken or not) select public facing interactions on a fairly permanent basis as to how they wish to be perceived? Or do we have three groups and assign public facing interactions on some basis over those 3 groups? And if we assign then how do we do it? If we have three groups do we use a neutral pronoun

            • Anker

              will do my best to put my tuppence in.may come later today

            • weka

              One example: women’s refuges where traumatised women would have to share spaces with traumatised trans women. Trauma informed support would be not subjecting a woman whose been raped to be housed with a male bodied person, because of retraumatisation. Doesn’t take too much searching to see where there are already problems with this. Solution: retain women only services and set up trans and/gender neutral services. Do the political work to make sure funding is adequate.

            • Anker

              Agree REdBaronCV what people do in the privacy of their own homes (as long of course it is mutually consenting adults).

              I am speaking up for women (though not a member of that group). The human rights act clearly set out that women have rights to separate spaces in public toilets and change rooms. I want it to stay that way.

              The human rights Act also makes the provision for separate women's spaces in accommodation such as hostels, shelters prisons and refuges. The right to have single sex schools for women. It also makes provisions for women's only sports.

              I support moves to keep the preservation of these rights. While I do see myself as able to offer complete solutions to issues about Transgender people , eg how they get to play sport , what change rooms they are in, I want to preserve the arrangements we have (although already we have a biological male who is competing in women's elite sport at Olympic level). Women are being expected to automatically comply with allowing trans women to assess domains that are normally reserved for them. Female weight lifters are being told not to speak up about Laureen Hubbard.

              I also have huge concerns about introducing gender ideology to school children as young as 7 years old. Kids are being taught there are all these difference gender's you can be e.g pan gender, gender fluid, trans etc. They are presented with flags that go with each gender. I don't believe there is any science behind gender ideology (correct me if I am wrong). I think children at this age are not capable of abstract thought so will just accept these ideas as truths.

              We have significant increases of children and young teens as identifying as transgender and we are not sure why. So we now have 12 years old being prescribed puberty blockers and then cross hormones. NICE have come out strongly to say there is a lack of evidence to support the efficacy of puberty blockers and unknown long term effects. We have 16 year old girls getting double masectomies and then hysterectomies at 18 years.

              So I have many concerns about this whole area. Not sure I have answered you questions.

            • RedBaronCV

              Hey Anker that was helpful. I noticed Sacha below used a Venn diagram analogy so we are looking at discussing which public activities intersect the men or women circle and which remain outside. with different levels of support etc? When it comes to some things like public rest rooms do we bump up the disabled toilet type facility- which are very much appreciated by some other groups like women/ men with small children who can use them and keep the children close.
              As for children of 7 receiving instruction i suspect it will go straight over their heads. In times past I was treated to some work perfect recitations of the facts of life ( some parents do a great job) complete with zero understanding.

          • Sacha

            there are two sporting categories women and other

            So trans women would compete as women? Or do they have to compete with trans men?

            • Anker

              Well my view is that if you are born male and have a male's physiology then you compete with men. I think the Other category could be open to anyone, men, trans women and anyone else who wants to compete in that group. The women's category for women born women and that would be open to trans men.

              That seems fair and safe to me. But I understand some trans women may feel uncomfortable with this. Interestingly I watched a clip with a UK trans women who was very clear she should be playing with biological males and has joined a men rugby team. Again my view is it is bodies that play sports not identities. That is why in weightlifting and boxing there are separate categories for different weights. You wouldn't put a light weight man with a heavy weight. BTW Laureen Hubbard is competing in a category that her weight well exceeds in.

              I am really sorry about this. I realize this is difficult for some trans people. But my full support goes to women and girls. I am speaking up for the female weight lifters who have been told to stay quiet about Laureen Hubbard. If not me and groups like SUFW then who?

              • Sacha

                The women's category for women born women and that would be open to trans men

                In other words, genetic females. Why not just say that?

                • weka

                  How about people use the language they use to best communicate what they’re trying to communicate except where they’re being excessively offensive.

                  • Sacha

                    When trying to communicate about sex and gender it pays to know the difference.

                    We already have one standard word in this language that describes both ‘women born women’ and ‘trans men’ in this context. Females.

                    • weka

                      How did Anker fail to not understand the difference between sex and gender?

                      most people would understand what she said

                    • Anker

                      I think this is the problem Sacha. To date you are the first person who has told me that i.e women and trans men are females.

                      May I ask who decided that? I think Weka is correct most people would know what I meant and I do see how want I said could be considered to be offensive.

                      I don't think of myself as female as such ,unless the options are male or female. I have always thought of myself as a women. End of.

                    • weka

                      I do think of myself as female, but in English that word is used in some contexts and not others. Woman is more common. Most people still use the word woman to mean biologically female, but it's implied, they're not sitting there thinking about biology because this is how woman has always been used until fairly recently.

                    • Sacha

                      Who said 'offensive'? Just illogical.

                      To date you are the first person who has told me that i.e women and trans men are females.

                      Nothing novel or controversial in saying that so I'm not sure what company you have been keeping.

                    • Sacha

                      this is how woman has always been used until fairly recently.

                      In English. And words evolve as cultures do.

                    • weka

                      words do indeed evolve, but at this point in history there are compelling reasons why women want to have some control over the language that they use, and that affects them.

                      Woman born woman is an evolution of language that's come out of women wanting to be able to talk about their experience in a highly charge social/political arena. I often just revert to using woman, depending on context, because woman and trans woman is a really effective way to communicate. Everyone knows what is being said.

                    • Sacha

                      In venn diagram terms, positioning the circle 'trans women' as outside the circle 'women' is quite different than inside.

                      Transgender activists and communities have used the term 'cis women' as distinct from trans women' where both are subsets of 'women'.

                      The 'debate' seems much like white people trying to claim the word 'New Zealander' or 'Kiwi' only for themselves.

                    • weka

                      Unless one believes that women have the right to self determination, in which case it's more like women resisting men telling women what to do, again.

                      I don't believe that trans women have the right to tell women how to speak about ourselves. What TAs could be doing instead is working with women on how to resolve the issues, including the conflicts. Most women would be open to that (or would have been, there's some seriously angry GC women around now who've had or seen really shitty things done to women). As far as I can tell a big part of this is the dysphoria that drives trans women to need to be accepted as women to relieve dysphoria. I think there are better ways to approach that than taking away women's rights. I also think there's a level of entitlement in that that needs challenging. And I don't think that dysphoria should be a driving force for such significant social change without serious examination. A lot of that is social rather than regulatory or legislative.

                    • Sacha

                      I don't believe that trans women have the right to tell women how to speak about ourselves.

                      Which only makes sense if you define trans women as not women. Bit circular there.

              • Nic the NZer

                I believe the Olympics have an issue with having both a womans and an open category. The suggestion is that this reduces the value of the womans category where the competition is close enough that the best women are in the open category. Their preference is for non overlapping categories, though I do think this could be amended if needed.

                • Anker

                  Reply to Sacha………?Illogical to say women and trans women???????

                  I have no idea what you mean.

                  And also what did you mean when you said about the company I keep? You don't even know me.

  9. Pat 9

    A comment on Pundit that resonates….

    "The Soviet Union became a society where everyone knew what their leaders said was not real, because they could see with their own eyes that the economy was falling apart. But everybody had to play along and pretend that it was real, because no one could imagine any alternative."

    "One Soviet writer ( Alexei Yurchak, a professor of anthropology who was born in Leningrad and later went to teach in the United States) called it hypernormalisation."

    " We are so much part of the system that it is impossible to see beyond it. The fakeness was hypernormal"

    "We live in a world where the powerful deceive us. We know they lie. They know we know they lie. They don't care. We say we care but we do nothing. And nothing ever changes. It's normal. Welcome to the post-truth world. HyperNormalisation"


    • ianmac 9.1

      So Pat. Where does Trump fit in there?

    • Descendant Of Smith 9.2

      Adam Curtis did a good questioning of hyper normalisation.


      • Pat 9.2.1

        2 hours 46…..later

        • Descendant Of Smith

          Yeah but did you find it interesting. I quite like his stuff ever since All Watched over By Machines Of Loving Grace. which looked at Silicon Valley and it's connections to Ayn Rand amongst other things.

          He has a new series which I haven't watched yet.


          These strange days did not just happen. We – and those in power – created them together.

          — Adam Curtis

          It supports what I've said for a long time – since the 80's – that you need to fundamentally change the power structures – whereas power has focussed on changing individuals – which is really just victim blaming.

          We've seen a touch of changing power with the move from Maori consultation to Maori wards. Much more needs to be done to re-empower informed communities in decision making.

  10. Molly 10

    This legacy of systematic inequity remains a decade after the formation of Auckland Council.

    Auckland mayor Phil Goff agrees the current model isn’t fair and he hopes the review can throw up some better options.

    “As a result of seven different legacy councils having varying levels of asset investment, assets inherited by and maintained by different local boards receive variable funding,” he says.

    “The historic legacy means that some areas are not getting equitable funding with others. There are complex issues to work through, but the joint governance working party and council are examining how to ensure that different parts of the city have equitable access to amenities and that funding is provided on a fair basis across the region.”

    At least now there is a working group, so snails pace yourselves.

    Inequality in wellbeing is increased by such funding frameworks as those that are currently in place.

    • Descendant Of Smith 10.1

      Yeah but some councils divested themselves (sold off) income producing assets while others did not. Some councils kept costly upgrade needed housing while others sold it off.

      Those who disposed of assets benefitted at the time and I can see why some ratepayers would rightly say they didn't benefit in anyway from the sell-offs made at the time but are expected to see those areas who did sell off benefit from them not doing so.

      I also think that central government needs to support those councils who did keep housing by giving them some funding to upgrade their housing stock.

      Central government helped the private sector through tax breaks and Housing NZ directly (apart from when national pinched poor peoples rent in the way of dividends leaving little money for maintenance) – the councils were always left out. Those they stayed the course should be now compensated.

      It’s also ironic that the right go on about councils should only do sewage and water but we can see across the country that they have neglected this very function but due to the rights focus on shifting costs for things like conference centres and racing events and so on that mainly the elite get to partake in they still manage to spend lots of money.

  11. Molly 11

    This is where investment in innovation, technology and new ways of providing housing could have an impact in NZ.

    Small houses, delivered for $49,000USD that are able to be connected to services on site within an hour of delivery.

    The whole channel is worth watching, when you are disillusioned with the pace of change that you see about you…

    • Molly 11.1

      PS. Price includes delivery, fridge and washing machine. You do have to provide your own bed, couch, dining suite…

      • s y d 11.1.1

        And your own site, power, water, wastewater, roading, playgrounds, schools….

        The system is broken….talk about hypernormality.

        Even good old Bernard Hickey has given up and recommends anyone not already owning a house should flee while they still can.

        The median voter remains supreme. The government has in recent weeks prioritised “keeping a lid on debt” over infrastructure to ensure houses are built.

        Get out while you still can

        Those parents still renting and those just graduating into Covid without assets should move now. Giving up hope seems a capitulation. It is. But sometimes discretion is the better part of valour. Sometimes there is no hope. Move to Australia and you’ll find wages are 30-40% higher and rents have fallen $50-100 in the last year.

        • Molly

          And your own site, power, water, wastewater.

          Yes. But in terms of housing during rebuilds those are already usually onsite. And when your permanent housing is ready, it can be sold. repacked and moved on.

          I wasn't suggesting it as THE solution to our housing situation (I believe that is a multipronged one), rather as a tool to be deployed where appropriate.

          Also, we do need to look how judicious use of technology in our building industry can be used to design and build with efficient use of resources and lower costs. We are really behind the ball here.

          (They also have tried to design to avoid the need for heavy moving trucks and cranes, again reducing costs.)

    • joe90 11.2

      Nothing new under the sun. (iirc the factory turned out four or five every day)


      [image resized]

      • Molly 11.2.1

        Ok, disagree on the comparison. (Not foldable and able to be moved on a trailer… and using basic build techniques to build cheaper, not efficiently. )

        More thinking how investment in automated factories and improvements in design and utilising local supply chains may reduce build costs while standardising a high build quality. Beasley homes were just small homes built to be transported. Build costs in NZ are exceptionally high.

        Investing in standardised local supply chains for fittings, and utilising technology and automated systems for regional production of State Housing would be beneficial. Current approach is not keeping up.

        • Molly

          … and Beasley homes were both mean-spirited and ugly. I bet those that profited from them, never would live in them.

          • joe90

            Transportables came late to the party when major infrastructure projects required hundreds of homes in remote locations.

            The methods and innovations imported post war by Beazly snr and jnr were employed locally to build thousands of comfortable, affordable homes, like the one I grew up in, to accommodate tens of thousands of working New Zealanders. The majority still stand.


            • Molly

              The methods and innovations imported post war by Beazly snr and jnr were employed locally to build thousands of comfortable, affordable homes

              Jeez. They did not utilise automated systems, or the design software that allows for changes to suit site or orientation. This is possible now without material waste or loss of production efficiency.

              But ok, I understand you think there is no room for improvement in building design, material wastage, build time or costs.

            • Molly

              … BTW used a relocatable to add extra bedrooms, so not unfamiliar with them. The transport costs can be high. The smaller units shown could be transported on a trailer.

  12. greywarshark 12

    Excluding cars from areas in Wellington CBD – what impact will that have on small businesses?



    It is estimated that thousands of people with disabilities are living in unsuitable accommodation but only 2 percent of houses are accessible in Aotearoa.

    Kāinga Ora plans to make 15 percent of new houses accessible and there is growing pressure for more.

    It's not only housing, new plans for carless city centres block out people who struggle to walk or cycle.

    A proposal to make Wellington's Golden Mile car-free has been criticised for excluding a large part of the population, while the head of a recreation group has highlighted the barriers to the country's great walks for disabled people.

    Sweeping new changes that sound good, look good in nicely coloured promotions, are often coming from the idealist not the realist perspective.

    • McFlock 12.1

      car-free doesn't seem to have killed Cuba St over the decades.

      • RedBaronCV 12.1.1

        Car free Manners Mall ( now used by buses) was a dogbox but now much better. The bottom end of Cuba Street is deserted pretty much – people don’t even walk through there

        • McFlock

          Seemed pretty busy when I was there earlier in the year.

          Only go to welly once a year or so. Sad TonTory on Manners st is no more – always liked that place late at night.

    • RedBaronCV 12.2

      This little proposal is worse than that. Yes anyone who can't walk a reasonable distance or climb on a bus can forget it under this.

      But the underlying study focused on only three parts of the day, morning and evening rush times and the lunch break. Now to get the buses through pronto we should probably get all private transport ( cars and cycles as well, out of the bus route at those morning and evening times. The actual volumes are low on the actual route ( the side streets are different) so that's not too disruptive. I include cycles because no matter what the number of lanes is limited and will remain so and we don't need buses following slow bikes. There won't be much more space for pedestrians either.

      No reason why private transport can't use and park outside those times. A lot of the area is sunless caverns outside lunch hours (it was designed like that in the past) and in the evenings the lower two thirds are absolutely deserted. It will stop people parking when they want to go to a show other evening entertainment etc. It doesn't address the impacts on surrounding areas either or unavoidable road closure and alternate routes when disaster strikes.

      Worse of all is the $59 to $76 mill price tag. There would be some minor works needed on the vehicle carriage way but the rest of the price tag looks like $50 mill of planter boxes and paving.

      Frankly it's ideology gone mad dressed in high priced designer togs.


      • greywarshark 12.2.1

        RedBaroncv – The idea is the thing. The council planners have to come up with something new and bold etc etc.

        I have a feeling that this impetus for Councils is exemplified in this intro for a video meeting of Councils. I don't want to point the finger at any particular council but the current emphasis on being excellent, leading edge, world class etc. all spells money, and perhaps measures beyond what would be satisfactory and useful. Is 'good enough' OK for the average ratepayer? I think they might be getting to that POV:

        This … will cover the ,,,,Council's continuous improvement efforts, and all it has done in its pursuit of excellence.

        [It] has shown courageous leadership as it strives towards the goal of being the very best Council in New Zealand. Their journey started four years ago when the Council undertook its first CouncilMARK™ assessment which helped …. establish a baseline of performance. From there, a comprehensive work programme was created that centered around continuous improvement.

        • RedBaronCV

          While the ratepayers spend their time hoping the money is spent well. Seems to be a vast increase in style over substance in some areas. The courageous always makes me laugh – what are they expecting – everyone to wade through a crocodile infested swamp?

    • RedBaronCV 13.1

      So the government is going to hand out free phones.Wheee. Much better idea than closing the travel bubble, All this sounds horribly detached from peoples real lives.

      And I can't say I liked this Jacinda comment on any level. you know privacy, commercial firms tracking us, sticking it on overseas databases

      "We expect that over time requiring people to scan in would become a part of normal life."


      • weka 13.1.1

        Pretty sure when they say scan they mean scan or sign in. The issue with signing in is that the government hasn't set up good systems. Who wants to use a pen that lots of other people have just used in the middle of an outbreak? It's solvable, they just haven't done the mahi.

        I'm reasonably ok with what's happening with the app data currently (it's not shared with govt, and afaik stays on the phone rather in the cloud. Commercial companies don't have access?). My concern is what a National government would do to change that, and what Labour might do if pressured enough.

        • Sabine

          Labour atm has a majority, so really they don't feel pressured to do anything they don't like to do. As for National, let me put it this way, they would do exactly what is legal to do and they would go as far as they could, and Labour if the shoe were on the other side would do exactly the same. I mean, really.

          Do you trust Labour to setup a surveillance system that would be 'National' proof? Because making ‘a scanning in a thing of norm’ is plowing the grounds to lay some seeds of mass surveillance. And the plants growing of these seeds won’t be good ones.

          • weka

            Nope. But the current app system seems reasonably ok for now.

            Pressure on Labour would be economic pressure, but also closer to the election pressure. Pressure of a scared public demanding the govt be punitive to non-complyers.

            • Sabine

              Emphasis on 'current'. Currently it is not mandatory. Once it is mandatory who will monitor and how, and i don't trust this government any further on that then i would trust a National government on it.

              The ones bringing Covid to our shores are coming in via plane, they are not living here. So really how keeps forcing you to sign in in Dunedin keeps the waitress safe from a spreader on holiday in Auckland or Wellington, Chch, or Arrowtown? And what if you don't comply? A fine? Home D? A bit of a prison stint?

              Define ' the public' that is demanding stuff from the government would be helpful too. Also consider that there are things the public demands from government and yet, government does very little or what ever it does is belated. Health Care, Mental Healthcare, Housing, crumbling infrastructure, etc.

              So yeah, nah, nah. Surveillance under Labour is/will be as bad as it would be under National. They would both abuse the situation if need arises and if they could get away with it.

              I could also see a tool of mass surveillance masked under ‘public health’ to be a massive voter turn off. Just saying. Not that these guys would care about that.
              As for economic reasons, well they could get the vaccines in the country with a bit of gusto and urgency and maybe they get finished before the next election runs about?

              • weka

                Apparently there were Wellingtonians a bit freaked out yesterday.

                • weka

                  read the thread, it's interesting, including the people who disagree with him about the app.

                  • Sabine

                    The whole of NZ should be a bit freaked out at the fact that some covid carrying dude from OZ came to NZ for a bit of leisure and plague spreading.

                    So, close the door. Unless really the government is now so outta cash that it needs the foreign currency injection so badly that it rather put us under constant surveillance then close the door to people and re-instate the two weeks mandatory quarantine.

                    And the 'some ask for harsher' methods is not clearly defined, could literally just be some government flunky who realised that Covid is also an issue for those that are well heeled. In fact, that is the issue is it not, its not spread world wide by the poor, but by those that can afford to holiday and fly. But the poor will have to pay the bill, again. Right?

                    I can not wait for 2023 to come soon enough, just so that i can again vote against these people.

                    • RedBaronCV

                      Thinking I'll get me a burner phone for govt comms. And never answer it.

                    • Herodotus

                      Just get on with the vaccination roll out. And on the topic why have not these alternatives been cleared yet ??

                      Our closed boarders are only a stop gap until science prevails with the answer/solutions.

                      and re the phone how will they know that you or I have zapped the app ? Not sure how a government agent will be able to ask to check your or my phone at a pub ?

                    • weka

                      who are you going to vote for?

                    • weka

                      "The whole of NZ should be a bit freaked out at the fact that some covid carrying dude from OZ came to NZ for a bit of leisure and plague spreading."

                      I'm not freaked out. The system is working. My concern is where Labour push the system beyond its limits due to economics. I'd be happy with stronger border controls and shifting NZ to a steady state, relocalised economy, but that's not going to happen.

                    • Sabine


                      like the last time a third party. I will neither vote for L, N or G. No use.

                  • Sabine

                    the system works? the system works insofar that we can trace the virus.

                    But until we have a confirmed case, that case can meander about the country spreading the plague where ever they go.

                    Maybe ask someone who works at a supermarket, pharmacy, etc if they think the 'system' works. Maybe ask a Nurse at the local ED department if they think the system and works, and then ask how long they think if will hold up if we had an outbreak here like OZ now has.

                    Maybe ask someone who works public facing if they should wear a mask for 8 + hours a day, just so that some guys from Oz can come over and have a holiday.

                    The system does not work in preventing an outbreak, it only works in tracing it and hopefully before it goes rampant is brought under control. What do you think your chances are if there were an outbreak? Yes, everyone should be freaked.

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