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Open mike 27/06/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 27th, 2021 - 64 comments
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64 comments on “Open mike 27/06/2021 ”

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  1. Adrian Thornton 1
    27 June 2021 at 10:05 am

    So it turns out Americans rightly have little trust in any of their MSM news outlets..not just FOX but also including all Liberal media….5 years of 'Russiagate', endless 'Trumpisim', misleading Covid information will do that I guess…the rest of the world are not far behind their our 'non' trust in their own local MSM.

    "According to a study, the United States has the lowest level of trust in the media among all countries surveyed – 29% and remains one of the few countries that hasn’t seen an increase in trust in recent years."

    This sort of thing adds fire to the fuel…

    Judge Finds Rachel Maddow Hyperbolic and Unreliable

    https://www.outkick.com/rachel-maddow-tucker-judge/

    • Pete 1.1
      27 June 2021 at 10:56 am

      Ignoring the rest of history, consider from 2015 onwards. Would there be a reason for the United States having the lowest level of trust in the media among all countries surveyed?

      (Past the media itself shooting itself in the feet in various ways.)

      Could a would-be leader of the country, then leader of the country roundly, loudly, universally telling 330 million daily that the media is 'fakenews' have any impact on the stats?

      • Adrian Thornton 1.1.1
        27 June 2021 at 11:32 am

        aahh..always back to Trump, you de realize that pretty soon bring soon bringing Trump in a debate will be like bringing up Hitler/Nazi's..ie you instantly lose.

        • Incognito 1.1.1.1
          27 June 2021 at 11:44 am

          yes

        • Adrian Thornton 1.1.1.2
          27 June 2021 at 11:55 am

          Man I gotta stop talking to mates and writing at the same time as I obviously can't multitask..that didn't read too good, but you get my drift.

        • Pete 1.1.1.3
          27 June 2021 at 12:18 pm

          I only became aware of and got used to hearing the expression "fake news" in recent years. I watched many live press conferences from the US and the expression was ubiquitous.

          Trump seemed to want to be the larger than life character. His supporters wanted him to be that. His presence, words and ways of seeing things were pervasive.

          If reflecting that reality means "you instantly lose" what does it take to win? Make stuff up? i.e. play the game the media is accused of playing and be deemed to be untrustworthy?

          • Adrian Thornton 1.1.1.3.1
            27 June 2021 at 12:59 pm

            "I only became aware of and got used to hearing the expression "fake news" in recent years."..are you serious..what the fuck was "weapons of mass destruction'? a bit of "fake news" that did more damage to the world by a fucking thousand country miles compared to anything Trump did.. you must either have a very short memory or operate in some sort of hermetically sealed bubble or something my friend..

            • McFlock 1.1.1.3.1.1
              27 June 2021 at 3:58 pm

              You are confusing the knowledge of some news being inaccurate (or an accurate reporting of falsified information) with the expression "fake news" that in recent years has gained popularity as a way to assign doubt upon true information reported correctly.

              WMDs were lies reported truthfully.

              Hundreds of thousands of dead americans were facts truthfully reported, the reporting then called "fake news" by the abject failure of a shitstain-in-chief.

              • Adrian Thornton …
                27 June 2021 at 5:30 pm

                "WMDs were lies reported truthfully" …are you fucking kidding?, 36 million people around the world protested against that war at the time because they knew that the lies of WMD, that pretty much all MSM in the west spewed out verbatim straight from the Whitehouse with no counter narrative allowed was fake news..exactly as those very same 'news' sources do today when it comes to willingly and unquestioningly enabling western regime change wars and interventions, again with no counter narratives allowed…which is one of the reasons why there is so little trust in the MSM, excepting the usual suspects of course, who seem to swallow whatever is feed to them.

                "In an investigation of the news coverage of Colin Powell's 2003 U.N. address, rhetorical scholar John Oddo found that mainstream journalists "strengthened Powell's credibility, predisposed audiences to respond favorably to his discourse, and subtly altered his claims to make them seem more certain and warranted."[19] In 2003, a study released by Fairness and Accuracy In Reporting stated the network news disproportionately focused on pro-war sources and left out many anti-war sources. According to the study, 64% of total sources were in favor of the Iraq War while total anti-war sources made up 10% of the media (only 3% of US sources were anti-war). The study stated that "viewers were more than six times as likely to see a pro-war source as one who was anti-war; with U.S. guests alone, the ratio increases to 25 to 1."[20]"

                • McFlock …
                  27 June 2021 at 6:10 pm

                  The information was reported accurately. The information, however, was a lie.

                  As opposed to the much more recent leitmotif "fake news", which most often seems to refer to inconvenient facts being reported truthfully.

                  • Adrian Thornton …
                    27 June 2021 at 6:40 pm

                    No the information was not reported accurately.

                    If it were, then the consumer of the event concerning that piece of "information" would have been also exposed to other information that opposed that narrative, thereby making that original "information" complete (by allowing citizens to view both sides of the story, and with ALL the information, being able to construct an informed opinion) however as MSM did not do this, that "information" you keep on insisting was accurately reported, was in fact incomplete, hence not accurately reported..in other words fake news.

                    In Iraq Crisis, Networks Are Megaphones for Official Views

                    https://fair.org/take-action/action-alerts/in-iraq-crisis-networks-are-megaphones-for-official-views/

                    • McFlock …
                      27 June 2021 at 8:43 pm

                      that "information" you keep on insisting was accurately reported, was in fact incomplete, hence not accurately reported..in other words fake news.

                      Not everyone with an opinion has an opinion based on direct knowledge. The US sec'y of state presenting intel (that turns out to have been fabricated) will obviously get more air time than any "anti-war organisation". Why? Because not only was he in a position to receive privileged information, he was in a position to act on it.

                      In a world with practically infinite amounts of information, no news organisation can present "ALL" the information. That's why they have editors.

                      Do you think the majority of mainstream media were attempting to provide the truth of the situation as they saw it based on the information they had to hand?

                      Do you think they were deliberately trying to mislead their audience as to the actual truth of the situation as they knew it?

                    • Adrian Thornton …
                      27 June 2021 at 10:41 pm

                      @ McFlock, " Do you think the majority of mainstream media were attempting to provide the truth of the situation as they saw it based on the information they had to hand? "…no

                      “In a world with practically infinite amounts of information, no news organisation can present “ALL” the information. That’s why they have editors.”..they didn’t present ANY other counter information, that is the fucking point!

                      On the US media nightly news stories about Iraq (1/30/03–2/12/03)

                      "More than two-thirds (267 out of 393) of the guests featured were from the United States. Of the U.S. guests, a striking 75 percent (199) were either current or former government or military officials. Only one of the official U.S. sources—Sen. Edward Kennedy (D.-Mass.)—expressed skepticism or opposition to the war. Even this was couched in vague terms: “Once we get in there how are we going to get out, what’s the loss for American troops are going to be, how long we’re going to be stationed there, what’s the cost is going to be,” said Kennedy on NBC Nightly News (2/5/03)."

                      Only a complete idiot could still believe that the US media acted in good faith leading into the Iraq war…don't tell me you are one of them?

                      https://fair.org/take-action/action-alerts/in-iraq-crisis-networks-are-megaphones-for-official-views/

                      I know it is in your nature to defend all forms Western imperialism, and this time it seems the media that the entire world knows actually encouraged it (many have since apologized for their lack of integrity in this matter) , but come on man have a bit of self respect

                    • McFlock …
                      27 June 2021 at 11:25 pm

                      Your claim has gone from 10% of MSM sources being opposed to the war to "they didn’t present ANY other counter information".

                      This is your inability to coherently communicate the stories behind historical facts with the benefit of hindsight. Yet you pillory the MSM for similar errors on reporting events as they happened, with sources who were deliberately fabricating evidence.

                      If they were deliberately lying, what are you doing when you change your claims like that?

  2. Robert Guyton 2
    27 June 2021 at 10:58 am

    Danyl's column is a very interesting read:

    "It’s hard to build a good cabal, though. You need a group of politicians and operatives who trust, like and complement each other. Simon Bridges’ cabal had Jami-Lee Ross in it and (Jerry Seinfeld voice) that was a bad cabal! A terrible cabal! David Cunliffe’s cabal had David Cunliffe in it: also a poor choice. So leadership is still key. A good leader builds a good cabal around them."

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/08-06-2021/what-if-nationals-problem-isnt-the-leadership-but-the-cabal/

  3. Sanctuary 3
    27 June 2021 at 11:08 am

    So has our media learnt a thing from covid?

    It is almost like a ritual now the usual grab bag of nonsense from our main newspapers. They spent months and months snivelling and whining and screaming on behalf of one their main advertisers in the tourism sector to open the borders. When there is a covid scare they proceed to spend the first 24 hours offering 20/20 hindsight as news and publishing reckons from know nothings and lots of anecdotal screeching about shambolic testing centres and demands for accountability because you know, you should have a magic wand which can instantly conjure up staff and resources followed by more reckons and choleric language expressing anger and disbelief from "…Devastated travellers (who) voice heartbreak and frustration at the travel bubble pause…" despite the fact you'd have to be Stevie Wonder not to have seen it coming this time and the government making it absolutely clear you travel at your own risk.

    Our media is run by unethical idiots incapable of learning anything.

    • Peter ChCh 3.1
      27 June 2021 at 12:19 pm

      Yes, if the media were ethical, they would be screwing this government and Bloomfields pathetic handling of the vaccine rollout.

      • Last place amongst OECD
      • 120th place in the world

      'We are at the head of the queue'. I guess Hipkins meant we are at the head of the queue for worst OECD performance.

      But hell, lets fiddle with cycle bridges for a tiny number of middle class North Shore residents whilst NZ burns.

      https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/new-zealand-slumps-120th-in-world-covid-19-vaccination-rates

      [You never responded to the Moderation note and withdrew or apologised. I will take you out of Pre-Moderation, since it has been almost one month now, but with the assumption that you haven’t learned a thing and have not changed your ways of commenting on this site – Incognito]

      • Incognito 3.1.1
        27 June 2021 at 12:28 pm

        See my note to you.

        • Peter ChCh 3.1.1.1
          27 June 2021 at 12:39 pm

          To be honest, I never saw the note (don't look on here every day!).

          And no. No way will I apologise to that stalker. If thats a ban, so be it.
          And as for ‘withdrawing’, I really would have to go back to see the chain of conversation.

          But yes, from now on I will reference any claim I make (but please also apply same standard to others)

          • Incognito 3.1.1.1.1
            27 June 2021 at 12:44 pm

            That’s disappointing, in more than one way. Better we draw a line under it and turn to a fresh sheet, yes?

            • Peter ChCh 3.1.1.1.1.1
              27 June 2021 at 12:47 pm

              Sounds great Incognito. New start and thank you for your very reasonable moderation.

              For the record, I think the withdrawal was because I did not provide a reference. If so, I withdraw that and as I say, will always reference in future.

              Cheers

              • Louis …
                27 June 2021 at 3:11 pm

                So that can be taken as a form of an apology and btw I am not a stalker. It is good that from now on you will provide a link to back up your claims.

          • weka 3.1.1.1.2
            27 June 2021 at 5:44 pm

            "To be honest, I never saw the note (don't look on here every day!)."

            Can you see the Replies list tab? Top right on both computer and mobile desktop version. If you click on that you will see all replies to your comments in reverse chronological order. This is the place to look and see if you've been moderated. We recommend people do this each time they visit, as a courtesy to debate culture and seeing who has replied, and to lessen moderator grumpiness at having to chase people up.

      • Muttonbird 3.1.2
        27 June 2021 at 2:55 pm

        Why are you so keen for our vaccination rate to be that of the rest world? Would you also like our Covid-19 response to be that of the rest of the world?

        Our main defence is working well and will continue to work well until the population is vaccinated to an acceptable level.

        There is no rush. Rushing the relaxation of restrictions leads to disaster with respect to Coronavirus.

        • Peter chch 3.1.2.1
          27 June 2021 at 3:19 pm

          Well clearly the government was keen on rushing it (as you put it), why else did Hipkins knowingly mislead us by saying we were at the front of the queue?

          No country can isolate itself forever. The strategy was elimination until a vaccine became available. Then achieve herd immunity by vaccine. That strategy is failing on the second step.

          Our response to Covid reflected our isolation, our dispersed population and other unique factors. These steps were appropriate for NZ, but hardly available to most of the rest of the world.

          • Louis 3.1.2.1.1
            27 June 2021 at 3:28 pm

          • Muttonbird 3.1.2.1.2
            27 June 2021 at 6:15 pm

            In no world was this government rushing vaccinations. That has never been the case except in the minds of people who struggle to read the news.

            The strategy is not failing. It is merely part way through.

            No doubt NZ had geographical and societal advantages, so why wouldn't a government take advantage of these in their Covid-19 policy?

            Only the ACT party would do otherwise.

      • Louis 3.1.3
        27 June 2021 at 3:25 pm

        "Jacinda Ardern said "no, no" when asked on Breakfast about New Zealand being ranked120th last in the OECD, as of June 15.

        She said such rankings largely measure first doses and the country was employing a "different strategy" in its vaccine rollout.

        While other countries were pausing second doses in the face of outbreaks, Ardern said New Zealand is "fully vaccinating as we go". This meant the country was ahead of Japan and Australia in terms of its population"

        https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/pm-rejects-nz-ranking-last-in-oecd-covid-vaccination-rates

        • Peter chch 3.1.3.1
          27 June 2021 at 3:33 pm

          Although Japan and Australia are not exactly an example of what to aspire to (and don't get me started on the Olympics – unbelievable stupidity on Japans part).

          I am aware Ardern said that. Sounds like spin to me, but maybe I am overly cynical. I am in no way a conspiracy theorist, but that cycle bridge seems like a blatant attempt at deflecting at a time of increasing dissatisfaction about vaccination.

          Great article by Fran O'Sullivan (unfortunately paywalled)

        • Matiri 3.1.3.2
          27 June 2021 at 3:33 pm

          I live in a rural community of 1000 people spread throughout several river valleys, our DHB is Nelson Marlborough. So far, 900 vaccs have been given, 300 people are fully vaccinated including myself. Our health centre has been at the forefront of our DHBs efforts with two of our nurse practitioners running pop up vaccination clinics around the region.

          We only hear the 'bad' news from media reports.

    • Jester 3.2
      27 June 2021 at 1:58 pm

      I don't believe half the stuff on NZ Herald and Stuff web sites. The news outlets should be independent and actually research and report the news.

      Items like this do not give me much faith in them.

      Government housing developer paying $25,000 a month for 'secret' sponsored media stories without disclaimer | Stuff.co.nz

      • alwyn 3.2.1
        27 June 2021 at 2:34 pm

        Which of these sites are you unhappy about?

        The Herald for not disclosing the fact that they were published sponsored advertising?

        Or Stuff for telling us about it?

        Or do you think the Government are at fault for arranging the publication of the material and the Minister for denying that they were doing so? Then, when she was caught out, blaming it on a "clerical error".

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300341098/housing-minister-corrects-record-after-clerical-error-leaves-off-475000-in-sponsored-media-stories

        • Jester 3.2.1.1
          28 June 2021 at 6:40 am

          Blaming a clerical error is an embarrassment. Megan Woods was caught out lying good and proper.

          • Incognito 3.2.1.1.1
            28 June 2021 at 7:51 am

            Woods said in the House on Wednesday she had no ministerial responsibility for NZME’s editorial policy.

            “Kāinga Ora had a contractual relationship with the media outlet. It is not their responsibility to ensure that the media outlet advertises that that is paid content. I have discussed this with Kāinga Ora. They have raised it with the media outlet in question, but I have no ministerial responsibility for that editorial policy,” Woods said.

            She said it wasn’t good enough for Kāinga Ora to wash their hands of the matter and blame NZME, as the contract was so large that the agency should have been checking there was a disclaimer being used.

            She may have been ‘lying’, but she was not responsible.

      • Louis 3.2.2
        27 June 2021 at 3:35 pm

  4. Adrian Thornton 4
    27 June 2021 at 11:52 am

    Breaking News…

    Key witness in Assange case admits to lies in indictment

    " major witness in the United States’ Department of Justice case against Julian Assange has admitted to fabricating key accusations in the indictment against the Wikileaks founder. The witness, who has a documented history with sociopathy and has received several convictions for sexual abuse of minors and wide-ranging financial fraud, made the admission in a newly published interview in Stundin where he also confessed to having continued his crime spree whilst working with the Department of Justice and FBI and receiving a promise of immunity from prosecution."

    https://stundin.is/grein/13627/key-witness-in-assange-case-admits-to-lies-in-indictment/

    • greywarshark 4.1
      27 June 2021 at 1:52 pm

      Will this help Assange? Will it mean that Australia can reach out to one of its illustrious sons in need?

      • Adrian Thornton 4.1.1
        27 June 2021 at 2:40 pm

        Australia is an unquestioning ally to the USA, so I wouldn't hold my breath on that happening….I will be extremely surprised if this gets a mention on most MSM outlets including our own RNZ, who sadly remain as silent as the rest of them.

  5. greywarshark 5
    27 June 2021 at 1:50 pm

    Can I see my long discussion on hate speech and Kris Faafoi transferred here? I thought it made some points but have i somehow vanished it? Or was it too pointed and bruising?

    • Incognito 5.1
      27 June 2021 at 2:01 pm

      It was caught by the Auto-Moderation filter because you had not correctly removed the many hyperlinks and left too many of the square brackets, inadvertently.

      It was missing a source-link to Wikipedia.

      It was poorly formatted and hard to see what was quoted text and what your own words were.

      It was a shambles and I trashed it.

      • Ad 5.1.1
        27 June 2021 at 3:05 pm

        OK Burn of the Day

      • greywarshark 5.1.2
        27 June 2021 at 3:59 pm

        Thanks for advising incognito, and it seems that formatting etc may be another barrier to free speech.

        • Incognito 5.1.2.1
          27 June 2021 at 10:35 pm

          You’re welcome.

          You’re also welcome to re-post, after some TLC.

          If you don’t want to draw attention to your comment and don’t want to waste time of grumpy Moderators then you know what to do to avoid Auto-Moderation.

          The choice is yours; there’s no free speech impediment, just following this site’s simple rules!

  6. Forget now 6
    27 June 2021 at 3:35 pm

    Not good, but not too bad yet. Feeling a bit anxious about attending a large public gathering last night – not many masks in the Dunedin throng. Still, have to wait and see – sympathies to those in Wellington, the lurking uncertainty can be worse than a known problem.

    The partner of the Sydney man (case A) who travelled to Wellington has tested positive for Covid-19… "That shows that case A was able to transmit the virus, and it suggests that case A was infectious towards the end of their stay in New Zealand. Those two people were isolated from each other on return to Australia, given Case A's positive test result at that point."…

    test results have been encouraging, but they received a "potential indeterminate" result in Masterton. It may be a false-positive.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/445625/covid-19-alert-level-2-extended-for-wellington-no-new-community-cases

    • McFlock 6.1
      27 June 2021 at 4:06 pm

      Had to move through the winter thingee crowd to get to another venue. Felt bloody weird – took me a while to realise it was the biggest crowd I'd been in for a couple of years.

    • I Feel Love 6.2
      27 June 2021 at 4:19 pm

      Were you wearing a mask Forget Now? Was a great night nonetheless.

      • Forget now 6.2.1
        27 June 2021 at 4:28 pm

        I was wearing a mask (though not while trudging to Moray Place, only when within arms reach of other people), but only saw two others. I was hoping that it'd be rescheduled to next weekend. Not saying that it wasn't fantastic, especially seeing my own kids walking by with the lanterns we'd made together (I'd been in the procession with them previously, and you don't really get to see much from there), just reckless.

        https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/crowds-awe-midwinter-spectacle

    • alwyn 6.3
      27 June 2021 at 4:52 pm

      "That shows that case A was able to transmit the virus,"

      Alternatively, and more cheerfully, they both picked it up in Sydney before they came and the partner was just slower in showing symptoms. Perhaps I am too optimistic though.

  7. greywarshark 7
    27 June 2021 at 8:43 pm

    There is a revealing and uncomfortable piece from Neale Jones in the Spinoff that is important because Jones is CEO of the PR/Lobbying firm, Capital Government Relations. He also has been Chief-of-Staff for both Andrew Little and Jacinda Ardern. Chris Trotter finds it disturbing for NZrs hopeful of many things from Labour and a return to a satisfactory level of democracy. https://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2021/06/democratic-socialism-from-ground-up-not.html

    Neale calls certain people 'anoraks' which Wikipedia says is used to mean:

    "Anorak" is a British slang term which refers to a person who has a very strong interest, perhaps obsessive, in niche subjects. This interest may be unacknowledged or not understood by the general public
    or
    a person who is extremely enthusiastic about and interested in something that other people find boring.., An anorak is basically a pretty decent insult. … The use of the word often fills the "insulter" with a delectable sense of satisfaction and achievement.

    Trotter's response –
    And, just in case you missed it, note the use of the word “anoraks”. Clearly, any citizen who takes an interest in the life of their city is some sort of sad obsessive; someone urgently in need of getting a life. Isn’t it great to know how Labour’s movers-and-shakers view the active citizen?

    It is all centred on housing. And wanting to get rid of all the old and build new apartments. And end up looking Stalinesk or palatial – because that is what the architects usually give us. I remember reading that this is what China has done. We can learn much from looking at the rest of the world.

    • RedBaronCV 7.1
      27 June 2021 at 9:09 pm

      A lot of the discussion on these housing changes was based on some very high future population estimates. Don't know if he had a hand in them but yes there are a lot of people in Wellington – regardless of the decision- who are pretty upset about how the process played out. And considering the greens get over 10% of their total vote from the 2 main Wellington electorates and labour also do very well I'd say the show is not yet over.

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