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Open Mike 28/09/2016

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 28th, 2016 - 85 comments
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85 comments on “Open Mike 28/09/2016 ”

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  1. marty mars 1
    28 September 2016 at 7:17 am

    This law change – put up by tolley and supported by ardern.

    “A new law outlined today will axe a longstanding provision that gives priority to placing abused children with foster parents from the same extended family or tribe.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11714721

    Currently, the Care and Protection Guidelines say:
    “In all situations it is preferable for the placement of the child or young person to be with their family/whānau or extended family/whānau member. A placement outside the family/whānau will only occur when there are no suitable family/whānau, hapu or iwi placements available.”

    This is saying that cultural connections are an important consideration not the be all and end all – and now… for the 60 percent of children in care who are Māori, we are heading towards placement wherever is easiest, and cheapest. And if you don’t think this is moving towards serco running foster homes and so on you are dreaming.

    Just to set some things straight – Whānau get the same police checks and winz checks as any other placement. When placed with Whānau often that is it and those members receive less support and attention than foster parents.

    This is another insidious tentacle of colonisation and will do nothing to protect the children that need protection.

    Tariana Turia has said

    “Across the world, social scientists, politicians and family advocates have lauded the 1989 Act as being ground-breaking in the importance it placed on placing faith in our families to care for their own. The problem is that the principles of the Act were never fully upheld by successive bureaucracies who under-delivered on the resourcing required to support parents in their most vital role.

    “Why is it that Governments can invest so much in sustaining foster care organisations and yet fail to support parents and whanau as the first and fundamental carers?

    “I am extremely disappointed at Minister Tolley’s warning shot that she will delete from law, section 5 (c) (ii) that consideration must be given to how a decision affects the “family, whanau, hapu, iwi and family group”. This is effectively saying that whānau, hapū and iwi are incidental, irrelevant, to decisions around the best placement for a child.

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1609/S00336/anti-whanau-stance-inconsistent.htm

    I suppose the racists will come out on this one and start reciting all of the abuse cases and deaths of children by the hands of their kin – I am not dismissing the abuse that occurs daily to children, I am not trying to pretend that those things don’t happen.

    • Olwyn 1.1
      28 September 2016 at 8:18 am

      I utterly agree with you marty mars. The recent changes to CYFs, the naming of a new ministry the ministry for vulnerable children rather than just children, and the ruling out of whanau as the first port of call where there are problems , all point in a dangerous direction. So much easier to kick people out onto the street when photogenic kids are removed from the equation. So much easier to reach the bottom rung of the property ladder with a government-funded, Serco allocated foster kid or two. This policy direction has “stolen generation” written all over it.

      • Draco T Bastard 1.1.1
        28 September 2016 at 2:23 pm

        This policy direction has “stolen generation” written all over it.

        QFT

        National cares about two things:
        1. Making rich people richer
        2. Taking wealth and power away from everyone else and giving it to rich people

    • BM 1.2
      28 September 2016 at 10:13 am

      I don’t think it really matters where a Maori child is placed as long as it’s a safe and nurturing environment.

      If that’s only available in a non- Maori environment so what, it’s the well being of the child that’s most important.

      • marty mars 1.2.1
        28 September 2016 at 10:25 am

        Thanks. Now we know what our resident rwnj thinks.

        • BM 1.2.1.1
          28 September 2016 at 10:32 am

          You think that’s a bad thing?, a Maori child can only live with Maori people, what sort of fucked up racist thinking is that.

          Shame on you Super Maori.

          [Marty didn’t say that, neither did his original comment, and the law change isn’t about that. You know how to debate better than this BM. Pull your head in – weka]

      • Olwyn 1.2.2
        28 September 2016 at 10:35 am

        If you re-read marty mars’ comment, you will see that the current ruling allows for putting a child elsewhere when no other option is available. The problem lies with the fact that when the extended family option is available, it will no longer have priority. Which means that those deciding where to place a child might well prioritise the child’s having its own bedroom among strangers over their sharing a bedroom with a known-and-loved cousin, for example.

        • Chris 1.2.2.1
          28 September 2016 at 3:09 pm

          Turia is spot on here. And it’s not just affecting Maori. It’s operational failure that’s driving Tolley towards ideological law change. The perennial complaint about CYFS is that it focuses on protection over care when the Act gives equal weight to both. So social workers are putting kids in foster care before looking at care issues which if resolved would avoid that and let kids stay with their own families, consistent with both the objectives of the Act and the UNCROC. Much wider issues at play here, but Tolley’s using a steam roller to flatten everything that on all levels point to government failure.

      • Chris 1.2.3
        28 September 2016 at 2:45 pm

        So that justifies getting rid of supporting families to care for their own children as a primary objective of the Act? Because it doesn’t matter where children live? Fuck, I didn’t realise how much of a moron you are.

    • The Chairman 1.3
      28 September 2016 at 10:17 am

      “Put up by tolley and supported by ardern”

      Why is Labour supporting it?

      And with Labour also supporting it, it will be hard to overturn.

    • McFlock 1.4
      28 September 2016 at 12:36 pm

      It looks to me like Ardern might have put the cart before the horse on this one, although “supported by” might be over-egging it a bit (it’s the support equivalent of the non-apology apology).

      Putting her comment “There is not the same level of scrutiny around kin care, so there is not the same level of assessment of whether or not it’s the right or safest placement for the child.” […] “That unfortunately has undermined kin care and I can see why we have ended up in this place.” alongside your “Whānau get the same police checks and winz checks as any other placement. When placed with Whānau often that is it and those members receive less support and attention than foster parents.”, the obvious response is to make the ongoing support and attention given to all new immediate families for children conform to the same minimum level, rather than just dropping the kid off and hoping for the best.

      I’ll be interested to see if she actualy commits to a course of action one way or the other.

  2. Cinny 2
    28 September 2016 at 7:41 am

    Seymour tells the left not to do an Epsom in Mt Roskill… bahahahahahahaha pot calling the kettle black David.

    They are not hoodwinking the public, they are being straight up with them, that MOU is gold. Watch out David your electorate could be next, are you freaking out a little bit?

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1609/S00480/mt-roskill-arrangement-shows-oppositions-hypocrisy.htm

    • Ad 2.1
      28 September 2016 at 8:23 am

      +100
      A special place in hell for him.
      Seymour, who preaches that government and taxes are evil, but makes his living by being in government, riding the Ministerial limo, hoovering up all the taxpayer funded junkets he can find.

      • alwyn 2.1.1
        28 September 2016 at 12:52 pm

        “riding the Ministerial limo”.
        He doesn’t actually. He is not a minister, from his own volition, apparently.
        Only Ministers and the Leader of the Opposition in the Parliament get supplied with the limos.
        Winston is not pleased, I gather, that he is not allowed one.

    • alwyn 2.2
      28 September 2016 at 12:41 pm

      He didn’t tell them “not to do an Epsom in Mt Roskill” as you claim.
      He merely pointed out that the Labour candidate is a hypocrite for going along with something he complained about last election.
      As he pointed out “Strategic voting is a reality of MMP, but hypocrisy is optional”.

      • Chris 2.2.1
        28 September 2016 at 2:19 pm

        “Strategic voting is a reality of MMP, but hypocrisy is optional”.

        Seymour’s mixing how people vote with what parties say they’re doing. As Stephanie Rodgers referred to last week, in Epson the nats put up a candidate but told people to vote for Seymour. In Mt Roskill Labour and the Greens are being quite open about what they’re doing.

        The real question is whether Labour’s going to be really dumb again in 2017 and deliberately set out to fuck over potential coalition partners.

      • Repateet 2.2.2
        28 September 2016 at 5:11 pm

        Seymour knows all about hypocrisy, he is an expert at it. He likes people having options and that’s why he chooses hypocrisy.

        He railed against it the Epsom arrangement being described as the only thing that saved Act but that is reality. A reality he doesn’t like and doesn’t want others to focus on.

  3. Garibaldi 3
    28 September 2016 at 7:46 am

    Yet another example of the State underfunding a process then watching it fail and fobbing it off to private enterprise ,which will do a lesser job and make a profit to boot. Never mind the children , they are just “outcomes”.
    edit…. in reply to Marty Mars.

    • Manuka AOR 5.1
      28 September 2016 at 8:48 am

      Holland began screaming “Allahu Akbar” – Arabic for “God is great” – as Heneti and Hay continued to yell at each other.
      ….
      Swarbrick later told One News that Heneti “was pushing me aside quite a bit”, but with seven years of karate and two years of Muay Thai under her belt, she wasn’t afraid to intervene.

    • Puckish Rogue 5.2
      28 September 2016 at 9:11 am

      No wonder local body voting is down with clowns like this, though by the sounds of it Chloe Swarbrick probably picked up a few votes so good on her

  6. Manuka AOR 6
    28 September 2016 at 8:58 am

    Earth may be close to the warmest it has been in a million years:
    https://www.cnet.com/news/earth-may-be-at-warmest-point-in-million-years/

    Earth may be close to the warmest it has been in the last million years, especially in the part of the Pacific Ocean where potentially violent El Nino weather patterns are born, climate scientists reported on Monday.

    This doesn’t necessarily mean there will be more frequent El Ninos–which can disrupt normal weather around the world–but it could well mean that these wild patterns will be stronger when they occur, said James Hansen of NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York City.

    • Colonial Viper 6.1
      28 September 2016 at 9:27 am

      NASA announced a couple of weeks ago that we have just had the warmest global August on record, and it surpassed the previous warmest…which was in 2014.

      It was an increase of 0.16 deg C over the Aug 2014 temperature.

      For the math inclined that’s a 0.1 deg C rise every 15 months. Does that sound like “abrupt climate change” to you? It does to me.

      IMO we’re going to hit 2 deg C global average warming by 2030 on a pre-industrial basis, and probably we will do it with time to spare.

      Oddly enough, I am looking at a graphic which claims that we still have 28 years worth of carbon burning budget left for a 50% chance to avoid 2 deg C warming.

      But 2030 is only 14 years away.

      • Bill 6.1.1
        28 September 2016 at 10:47 am

        That budget is how big? Does it involve burning carbon at present rates (as implied by your comment)? Does it include land emissions and energy emissions? What level of cuts in energy use would be needed to satisfy that budget? Does it assume negative emission technology?

        You got a link?

        Must say. Your comments on AGW are becoming a tad ridiculous CV. Seems all you want to do is wave your arms screaming bad, badder and baddest and are quite willing to submit misleading comments to crow on about how you ‘got down’ on some bedderest of all bads scenario.

        • Manuka AOR 6.1.1.1
          28 September 2016 at 11:26 am

          Is this the link: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/mar/10/dangerous-global-warming-will-happen-sooner-than-thought-study

          ” researchers say a global tracker monitoring energy use per person points to 2C warming by 2030″

          University of Queensland and Griffith University researchers have developed a “global energy tracker” which predicts average world temperatures could climb 1.5C above pre-industrial levels by 2020.

          That forecast, based on new modelling using long-term average projections on economic growth, population growth and energy use per person, points to a 2C rise by 2030.

          • Bill 6.1.1.1.1
            28 September 2016 at 11:32 am

            No, that’s not a link containing any “graphic which claims that we still have 28 years worth of carbon burning budget left for a 50% chance to avoid 2 deg C warming.”

                • Colonial Viper …
                  28 September 2016 at 2:45 pm

                  Hi marty mars, your following me around like this is endearing but seriously: there isn’t 5ppm of difference between Clinton and Trump on climate change.

                  Clinton knows how to say the right things though, I’ll give her that.

                  • marty mars …
                    28 September 2016 at 4:55 pm

                    I’m pleased you are happy about it – and I just cannot help putting some facts in when you pontificate from on high with weepy eyes about all the things you say you care about but actually deliberately work against – like trump and his climate change denier status and this bullshit trumpism of yours of 5ppm.

              • Bill …
                29 September 2016 at 6:07 pm

                Strictly speaking, these aren’t probabilities, but are the proportion of all the model simulations that keep warming below that temperature limit.

                Okay. That’s the 5th para from your link. So it’s a graph relating to or tabulating the conclusions of various models – not the real world.

                Additional small detail. All the major models that hold to 2 degrees employ either peak dates from “yesterday” or assume negative emission tech. Some use both sleights of hand.

                That’s from Kevin Anderson who trawled through hundreds of ‘integrated assessment models’. Go to any of his more recent presentations and that information will be in there. Not one of his peers from the scientific community has challenged his findings on that front.

                But thanks for providing the link.

      • Poission 6.1.2
        28 September 2016 at 11:54 am

        NASA announced a couple of weeks ago that we have just had the warmest global August on record

        http://www.giss.nasa.gov/gfx/spot/2016/201609_data_gistemp_736x480_x2.jpg

        Neat trick with the spherical cow there,can you spot the problems?

  7. DH 7
    28 September 2016 at 9:09 am

    Seems it might be time for all those who sneered at Penny Bright to eat some humble pie….

    “Corruption at council widespread, says Crown”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11717850

    • The Chairman 7.1
      28 September 2016 at 9:20 am

      Dickey said the Court would hear from nearly a dozen former staffers from RDC and Auckland Transport who would show – sometimes reluctantly as they were themselves implicated – that corruption had spread and become deep-rooted.

      “The extensive provision of benefits to staff at all levels of their teams resulted in a culture where corruption flourished and was normalised, with no questions asked,” he said.

      • save nz 7.1.1
        28 September 2016 at 2:39 pm

        +1 Chairman – totally true. Sad, that only Penny, of the Mayoral candidates seem concerned about it.

        There are serious issues with the relationships between council staff and private companies and where the rate payers dollars are going.

        • The Chairman 7.1.1.1
          28 September 2016 at 6:57 pm

          “There are serious issues with the relationships between council staff and private companies and where the rate payers dollars are going.”

          With this sort of carry on, one can see why the council has failed to meet Penny’s demand for transparency.

      • Macro 7.1.2
        28 September 2016 at 3:41 pm

        The extensive provision of benefits to staff at all levels of their teams resulted in a culture where corruption flourished and was normalised, with no questions asked,” he said.

        So very, very, true. And it has been going on for years. I know of someone who was regularly being treated to Box seats at Rugby Games at Eden Park years ago. I was astounded then, but he thought it was entirely ok! The fact that those offering the treats were businesses he had regular dealings with in his day to day work seemed to escape him.

        • Draco T Bastard 7.1.2.1
          28 September 2016 at 5:11 pm

          That does seem to be a problem in NZ – we simply don’t recognise the corruption that’s so much in our face.

        • The Chairman 7.1.2.2
          28 September 2016 at 7:49 pm

          The fact it is being described as “normalised” is concerning.

          It will be hard to eradicate being this in set.

    • save nz 7.2
      28 September 2016 at 2:36 pm

      +1 DH

    • whispering kate 7.3
      28 September 2016 at 4:48 pm

      Barrie George, Noone’s Deputy pleaded guilty on the eve of the trial to receiving $108,580 in bribes which he mostly used for twenty overseas holidays for himself and his family. He received 10 months Home Detention.

      What a slap with a wet bus ticket that was – with all the hoo haa over the rugby player who knocked senseless and assaulted four people and was let off – its pretty obvious that there is one law for one section of society and one for the rest of us. I can see what an unfortunate person on a benefit would get if he chose to accept money under the counter while receiving his/her miserable amount they receive from the Government. It sure wouldn’t be 10 months home detention.

      Good on you Penny for keeping up the good work, there are many who applaud your guts and determination. No bloody wonder our rates keep rising – just to keep people in holidays overseas – its disgusting.

    • Draco T Bastard 7.4
      28 September 2016 at 5:05 pm

      Crown prosecutor Brian Dickey said part of the Crown’s case is that Borlase arranged matters so the Rodney District Council – and later Auckland Transport – effectively paid to have their own staff bribed.

      Dickey outlined what he described as a pattern of transactions: Projenz laying on expensive hospitality for Noone’s staff; Noone invoicing Projenz for hundreds of thousands of dollars in allegedly sham “consultation” fees; and progressive larger contracts, first from Rodney District Council then Auckland Transport, being sent Projenz’s way.

      If the council still did it’s own work and didn’t outsource to the private sector then none of this could actually happen.

      The more privatisation that we have the more the corruption shows up.

  9. J 9
    28 September 2016 at 10:47 am

    Can someone please point me to the place where the mayoral candidates for Auckland talk about their promises on assets which they are the guardians of. Specifically – water, but also Port of Auckland and airport shares.

    Thank you very much in advance.

  11. Colonial Viper 11
    28 September 2016 at 11:27 am

    The commercial ecosystem of western propaganda surrounding Syria: tricking progressives

    From the outstanding alternative news site Consortium News

    The results of similar media manipulation can be seen in the widespread misunderstanding of the conflict in Syria, amid the demonization of the Syrian government and leadership and the skillful use of social media by anti-government activists. Influenced by both mainstream and this alternative media, most people in the West do not know that Bashar al-Assad remains popular with many Syrians. Nor do they realize that Assad won an election two years ago.

    There were three contestants in the Syrian presidential election of June 2014. Turnout was 73 percent of the registered voters, with 88 percent voting for Assad. In Beirut, the streets were clogged with tens of thousands of Syrian refugees marching through the city to vote at the Syrian Embassy. Hundreds of Syrian citizens living in the U.S. and other Western countries flew to Syria to vote because Syrian Embassies in Washington and other Western capitals were shut down.

    While Secretary of State John Kerry was condemning the Syrian election as a “farce” before it had even happened, a marketing company known as The Syria Campaign waged a campaign to block knowledge of the Syrian election. Along with demonizing President Assad, the company launched a campaign which led to Facebook censoring information about the Syrian election.

    https://consortiumnews.com/2016/09/23/how-us-propaganda-plays-in-syrian-war/

    • Psycho Milt 11.1
      28 September 2016 at 12:43 pm

      He must be very popular indeed, just like his father was before him, because he and his dad always won by a huge majority. I expect the fact that the electoral authorities don’t want to end up dangling by their heels with electrodes on their bollocks had a bit to do with those awesome results, but still, very well played.

      The funny thing is, I bet these saps aren’t even getting paid for writing this stuff.

  12. rhinocrates 12
    28 September 2016 at 12:57 pm

    Elon Musk announces that it will be cheaper to buy a house on Mars than Auckland:

    (presentation starts about 20 minutes in)

  13. adam 13
    28 September 2016 at 1:47 pm

    Who was the man to cut down the last tree on Easter Island?

    • Colonial Viper 13.1
      28 September 2016 at 3:16 pm

      Hedges is magnificent as usual.

    • joe90 13.2
      28 September 2016 at 4:52 pm

      Who was the man to cut down the last tree on Easter Island?

      A fairy tale to cover up the real culprits.

      Their explanation stands in stark contrast to the traditional story, starting with the very timing of the original inhabitants’ arrival on the island. While Bahn and Dr. Flenley suggest that humans were living on the island before the first millennium of the common era was over, Dr. Lipo and Dr. Hunt say people didn’t arrive until around 1200 AD.

      According to Lipo and Hunt, the Rapa Nui people went on to thrive, although not in as large numbers as the traditional story suggests. And their agricultural lifestyle wasn’t their ruin. Instead of committing ecocide, the Rapa Nui were still doing well when the Europeans arrived.

      What ultimately did in the thriving civilization, they argue, was contact with Europeans. The explorers carried diseases, thinning the population, before ultimately enslaving and decimating many.

      http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2016/0217/Mystery-of-Rapa-Nui-What-really-happened-at-Easter-Island

  14. Bearded Bit 14
    28 September 2016 at 1:55 pm

    Good old Maggie Barry-has funding for lawyers defending the indefensible, but not for huts, tracks and biodiversity.

    “DOC today sought leave to appeal [[to the Supreme Court] the court’s direction that the Director-General reconsider his decision on a land exchange for the Ruataniwha Water Storage Scheme.
    We are making this appeal because the effect of the decision on the management of public conservation land is a matter of public importance,” Conservation Minister Maggie Barry said.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11718531

  15. Ed 15
    28 September 2016 at 1:56 pm

    Widespread corruption
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11717850

    Is this Just “normal” crony capitalism, or enhancing business profitablity by design (ACT and the limited control of “Council Controlled entities,” or an isolated incident that shows that corruption does eventually get caught by Auckland City processes.

    If this is happening in Auckland, is it also happening with roads of National/ACT significance?

    • save nz 15.1
      28 September 2016 at 3:03 pm

      It’s not just Auckland, theres the National government (so many issues to point out from Saudi Sheep to Scenic hotels) also I heard a rumour that Wellington council has just approved 8 million dollars to Singapore Airlines to fly to Wellington… Most people just want the libraries and their rubbish collected, not blowing money left right and centre.

      Theres also advice given to Auckland council from their so called private advisers Simpson Grierson (legal) and Deloittes… (IT). Someone should work out if these advisers fees have ballooned over the years and whether the advice was of sufficient quality for the amount of fees…

      Don’t forget the IT guy in Southland who stole millions from the health board with fake invoices…

      So many staff with their noses in the troughs.. I suspect the current case is just the tip of the ice berg. What’s going on with the SOF isn’t that their remit to look into this stuff …

      • Colonial Viper 15.1.1
        28 September 2016 at 3:12 pm

        Don’t forget the IT guy in Southland who stole millions from the health board with fake invoices…

        A famous Dunedin story and rumours of where he stashed that wealth abound

      • McFlock 15.1.2
        28 September 2016 at 4:48 pm

        … and also Dunedin, the council fleet manager who offloaded council vehicles to local dealers at low prices and pocketed the cash.

      • CC 15.1.3
        28 September 2016 at 5:50 pm

        Not a rumour save nz, the Wellington City Council slush fund administered by the CEO, handed $8m to Singapore Airlines to have a service that hubs at Canberra rather than Sydney or Melbourne. Funny – no screams of disapproval from the CEO of the Chamber of Commerce that threatened to take the Council to Court for voting to pay a living wage!

  16. Bearded Git 16
    28 September 2016 at 1:59 pm

    Good old Maggie Barry-has funds for lawyers defending the indefensible but not for track, huts and biodiversity.

    “DOC today sought leave to appeal [to the Supreme Court] the court’s direction that the Director-General reconsider his decision on a land exchange for the Ruataniwha Water Storage Scheme.
    “We are making this appeal because the effect of the decision on the management of public conservation land is a matter of public importance,” Conservation Minister Maggie Barry said.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11718531

  17. Chris 17
    28 September 2016 at 2:38 pm

    Don’t buy from Australian companies? If you really want to hurt them boycott all sport with Australia. That’s what’ll do it.

    https://norightturn.blogspot.co.nz/2016/08/dont-buy-australian.html

  18. Takere 18
    28 September 2016 at 3:22 pm

    Looks like we’ve got Muzza & the Pom’s have got a “poet” as a Foreign Minister called Boris who’s currently in Turkey collecting his prize for writing this poem for Erdogan;

    Winner of the British magazine, the Spectator, offered a £1,000 ($1,440) prize for the most offensive poem against Erdoğan.

    “There was a young fellow from Ankara
    Who was a terrific wankerer
    Till he sowed his wild oats
    With the help of a goat
    But he didn’t even stop to thankera.”

    Muzza,Boris & Trump would make an awesome team? What for, I don’t know yet?

    http://qz.com/688126/would-you-like-to-read-boris-johnsons-dirty-goat-sex-limerick-about-the-turkish-president/

  19. Chris 19
    28 September 2016 at 3:36 pm

    Here’s a classic example of what happens to people since Labour got rid of the special benefit in 2004:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/84670949/a-womans-struggle-after-daughters-death

    Doesn’t look like she’s getting temporary additional support but that wouldn’t deal with a situation like this anywhere near as effectively as how the special benefit used to.

    • weka 19.1
      28 September 2016 at 6:38 pm

      There’s a lot to be angry about in that article but my palpable rage comes from Stuff putting 11 helpline numbers under that article and not a single one of them is to a beneficiary advocacy group.

  20. ianmac 20
    28 September 2016 at 5:44 pm

    Reading the text of Trumps debate yesterday on a linguists site, it identifies what happens when Trump speaks. On paper it transcribes as a disjointed mess regarding “the terrible deal the US has made with Iran,” for example.
    But live with gestures and tones he does get his message to those who want to hear.

    Read Key’s transcribed of the off-the -cuff speeches and exactly the same happens. Disjointed and ambiguous but the believers get his message. And later he can use the ambiguity to justify his position.

    So I think Key and Trump use the same speaking style and it works!

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