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Open mike 29/11/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 29th, 2021 - 338 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

338 comments on “Open mike 29/11/2021 ”

  1. Ad 1

    Pretty much guaranteed Cabinet will meet and shut the borders down.

    When there's too much risk from too much uncertainty the advice will be towards the most cautious response possible until knowledge increases.

    Also puts into question whether the entire Traffic Light system should go ahead this week.

    Hunker down people this is going real dark.

    • Red Blooded One 1.1

      Are you talking about Christopher Luxon? Perhaps you could be more specific when sharing your fears. devil

    • Gezza 1.2

      Over the Omicron Covid variant?

      Dunno. They may just stick with selective country-bans for travellers who are in, or passed thru, affected nations. At least to begin with.

      They’ll be rightly fearful of the screams of protest & indignation & potential “uprisings in the streets” were they to now suddenly back away from their previously-signalled approach to Christmas.

      Omicron – and other variants – was always going to happen. As Ardern used to say: “This is a tricky virus”.

    • Jester 1.3

      Yes you unfortunately may be correct as they seem to take the 'abundance of caution' approach, like back in September when Bloomfield advised rest of NZ could go to level one, but government went against that advice.

      Director-General of Health Ashley Bloomfield proposed 'rest of New Zealand move to Alert Level 1' in September | Newshub

      • Puckish Rogue 1.3.1

        Follow the science all right…

        • SPC 1.3.1.1

          Bloomfield based his Level 1 recommendation on expectation they would eliminate in Auckland, before having done so. This while vaccination rates outside Auckland were much lower than now.

      • Red Blooded One 1.3.2

        From the article they point out that Dr Bloomfield didn't factor non-compliance. The Government obviously was practicle in their response using both Health and Security balanced with the Economy. If you are looking for relentless negativity you will find it, if you are realistic about the handling of a once (hopefully) in our lifetime virus, you will be grateful for the results we have seen. Your choice.

        • McFlock 1.3.2.1

          Yes, I found it interesting that the Auckland Relaxation was in line with Bloomfield's advice. Rare miss-step from our esteemed DGH, there.

          I take back a portion of the cynicism I have about that Cabinet decision.

      • observer 1.3.3

        If only we were led by all the genius commentators and opposition blowhards screaming "Give us certainty", telling us it'll all be fine in Dec/Jan/Feb/whenever but omitting to mention Omicron, because their "certainty" did not include any understanding whatsoever of the virus … even after 2 years.

        • Dennis Frank 1.3.3.1

          Most folks skate lightly across the surface of issues. Deep context is usually more informative. Good to see scientific focus on that:

          The objective of the Research Topic is to bring together spatio-temporal biological, ecological, environmental and social aspects of Coronavirus to better understand its dynamics, shifts, systemic impacts on health and socio-economic effects.

          Studies via models that link Coronavirus to other viruses are welcome, in order to properly characterize the biology, ecology and environmental niche or universality of Coronavirus dynamics.

          We also seek prospective studies that investigate potential future spillovers of Coronavirus-like viruses by indicating risk hotspots in relation to socio-environmental determinants.

          Other issues focused on public health and medical aspects are welcome; however, these studies need to explicitly address the virus’ connection with the environment in order to gain insight into its ecology and evolution.

          Studies addressing data and modeling challenges as well as different model approaches (from machine learning to phenomenological and process-based models) have a lot of interest. Lastly, we highly encourage studies that quantitatively explore the coupled evolution of population perceptions and the associated infodemic (for instance, inferred from social media), behavior and systemic health outcomes.

          https://www.frontiersin.org/research-topics/14448/covid-ecology-and-evolution-systemic-biosocial-dynamics

          So the action isn't just in covid ecology – it's also in the psychosocial nexus. Nobody expects bureaucrats to encompass this, of course! However, public health admin really does need to factor in how people respond to pandemics.

          The stance of perpetual surprise ("Oh gosh, non-compliance, boundary-runners, fake vax certificates, what next??") has to be replaced by something more sophisticated. Realpolitik means decision-making based on where people are at rather than where the admin person assumes they are…

        • Gypsy 1.3.3.2

          If the government is preparing for future variants in the way the Roche review has concluded it prepared for Delta, it's pretty hard to have certainty about anything.

          • Descendant Of Smith 1.3.3.2.1

            I'm less concerned about how the government prepared for it and more about how the public and businesses did not prepare for it despite lots of warnings over the years.

            The head in the sand – it will never happen. There are quite a lot of public who did take past warnings and events seriously but clearly insufficient in number. I have met quite a few though who did take heed.

            On the other hand I've yet to find a single business who made any provision / risk assessment – despite some of them actually being involved in pandemic planning some years back.

            Floods tick
            Earthquakes tick
            Bomb threat tick
            Fire tick

            Pandemic zip, nada, zilch

            I'd actually love to find one who did.

            • Gypsy 1.3.3.2.1.1

              "I'm less concerned about how the government prepared for it and more about how the public and businesses did not prepare for it despite lots of warnings over the years."
              I run a business. We prepared for it as best we could under circumstances where the Government didn't.

        • DukeEll 1.3.3.3

          All you are doing is replacing the certainty of opening up with the certainty of locking down every time someone has unusually pitched sneeze.

    • AB 1.4

      May not happen today – but odds are they'll push MIQ back up to 14 days for everyone soon. Omicron may well be everywhere, not just in the seven countries targeted at present. Traffic Light system will go ahead and rely on MIQ to protect it – for a while at least until the first and inevitable Omicron incursion. The overseas vacationing class will explode with anger.

      • SPC 1.4.1

        It’s most likely the initial response will be MIQ based. And it will be a growing list of nations where there is the new variant.

        If the variant concern is lasting they might review the border plan itself to try and keep it out. In that case they may have to end the lottery and begin to immigration points system their approach to reduce hardship.

      • Tricledrown 1.4.2

        Not to mention the overseas workers who can't make it back .

        This is a war on a virus the virus is invisible .

        People just think everything is just going to go back to what it was .

        The likelihood of getting on top of this disease is very low.

        For that to happen a lot of mountains have to be overcome.

        A high vaccine rollout in poor countries with minimal infrastructure and poor education.Vaccine hesitancy is high in these countries.

        Refrigeration non existent so new vaccines that don't need very cold storage. Those vaccines are only gaining approval now and will need to be mass produced in a big hurry and rolled out just as quickly in the billions not millions or even the odd 100 million given by wealthy nations.

    • SPC 1.5

      The whole basis of the traffic light system is having vaccination take the place of lock down (in keeping spread to within health system capacity).

      It is not yet known whether a new variant would change this (the beta variant escaped vaccines, but was not as infectious as delta) – it's possible omicron escapes the vaccine more than delta, but unless it also results in more hospitalisations of the vaccinated it may not be a game changer.

    • Treetop 1.6

      The group in South Africa getting the Omicron strain is in the 20 – 40 year age group. This group is the least vaccinated. There are other variables such likely to be in a crowd.

      Approx 30 spike mutations is a worry. Whether or not previous infection will be a protective factor and vaccination. Transmissibility and the health system being able to cope. The unknown is the highest risk.

      Shut the borders in every country for a month and only allow urgent travel with a quarantine in the country you arrive in. Vaccinate everyone who can be vaccinated.

      I hope the scientist are looking at transmission in animals as well.

      Source stuff news and RNZ news 29 Nov 21.

  2. Ad 2

    So, together with the 5 gunshot deaths and multiple live break-ins in the area in 2 months, multiple gang activity, massive neighbourhood disruption, and Police fully armed 24/7 over the weekend, we now have Police attacked in New Lynn.

    Police officer seriously injured after being struck by car in Auckland – hunt for fleeing driver – NZ Herald

    All praise to the Police for seeking to sustain law and order.

    Now, just as a reminder: the local MP is Labour, the local Board is Labour Chaired and dominated, the Mayor is Labour, the next door MP is the Labour Minister of Social Welfare and also has a Labour Local Board and also a Labour Councillor.

    WTF are these people doing?

    • Puckish Rogue 2.1

      Being kind

      • GreenBus 2.1.1

        Being kind to T.O.W.

        Cracking down on gangs will get your party labelled racist.

        Another label is "Discriminating against Maori/ and P.I."

        Labour don't have the backbone to weather those labels.

        This is Natz territory.

    • Gezza 2.2

      Stuff-all, imo. We need WAY MORE Police Officers operating in our communities. One of the more impressive young male Māori orderlies I encountered & chatted to during my recent 2 week stint in the brilliantly-run Welly Hospital told me he’s from Aucks & been accepted for Police College, but his intake’s been put on hold becos of Covid. So he figured he could help the public another way by getting a job as a hospital orderly meantime. 👮🏻 👍🏼

      • Treetop 2.2.1

        We need a new police minister.

        Why is Greg O'Connor not the police minister?

        • Dennis Frank 2.2.1.1

          Pale stale male…

          • Treetop 2.2.1.1.1

            I thought someone would say that. Never mind the 4 decades that O'Connor put into the police, that needs to account for something.

        • Gezza 2.2.1.2

          Have you ever watched Greg O’Connor attempt to debate in Parliament. I have. It was bloody painful to watch. Useless. Making up the numbers is all he’s good for. And he’s my damn electorate MP. His best days are long gone, imo.

          Poto Williams is hopeless as Police Minister, tho. (She’d probably be equally out of her depth as Coffee & Biscuits Minister. Very Unimpressive, in my view.)

          I’ll have a think about who in Labour’s line up might be a good police Minister. Maybe one of the regular crime victims’ representatatives? A member of the Indian community, perhaps?

          • Treetop 2.2.1.2.1

            I often would listen to O'Connor talking to Danny Watson in his roll as the union police rep, he was confident and could be a bit cheeky but would mind his p's and q's now. I have not listened to O'Connor in the House.

          • Craig H 2.2.1.2.2

            Since the Police Minister has no legal authority in operational enforcement, what would you expect a police minister to do?

            • Treetop 2.2.1.2.2.2

              I know that NZ is not a police state.

              Provide the needed resources to keep the police and public safe. As well reduce serious crime. Serious dialogue between the police minister and the minister of police. A Wellington based minister of police and just having the responsibility of a single main portfolio.

              The term "domestic terriorism" which would involve the SIS and police working more closely.

              • Gezza

                Serious dialogue between the police minister and the minister of police.

                I am assuming that should have said:

                “Serious dialogue between the police commissioner 👮🏻 and the minister of police. 🗣”

                Yes?

              • Craig Hall

                Money is a decision for cabinet and then Parliament, not the Minister, although obviously the Minister is the one arguing for the money. Like any other government agency, once the money is appropriated, it's up to the chief executive (Commissioner) to actually implement the agreed spend and programmes, not the Minister (not saying there are no briefings or discussions).

                Not sure there's much difference between a Wellington-based minister and any other minister with the allowance system – cabinet ministers spend 4-5 days/week in Wellington in sitting weeks, travel the country for a portion of the rest of the time, and not being a sitting week doesn't preclude being in Wellington.

                Having the minister only have that portfolio makes some sense, but it would be unusual for cabinet ministers – even the PM has other portfolios.

                I'm sure the Minister asks the Commissioner what the plan is to sort these issues out, but the actual policing is not under the Minister's jurisdiction by law.

                • Treetop

                  Coster spends the operational $$$ and enforces the law, minister of police finds the $$$ and legislates.

                  As well Coster goes through the minister of police and minister of police can go directly to the PM.

                  Coster would also have SIS briefings and possibly GCSB.

                  • Craig Hall

                    The briefing to the incoming minister says there are national security briefings as well, which is not terribly surprising.

    • Treetop 2.3

      NZ can only sustain a certain number of patched gang members before the conflict within gangs spills over. Verbal and physical violence is not good for anyone. Members have families which are put at risk and the public risk is far too high.

      More police, affordable housing, opportunity to make a living, counselling which works and be the best version of yourself.

      • fender 2.3.1

        Gang members families put at risk is the problem of the gang member. They placed them at risk, it's their problem. Protect the public and police.

        • Treetop 2.3.1.1

          Correct me if I am wrong, gangs have the notion that the gang members who they are affiliated with will protect them. I think this is the route cause of the current problems as pay back is happening.

          An individual gang member puts his family at risk because of being a gang member.

    • Peter 2.4

      These people in this case are seeing the results of the police dealing with an incident of burglary.

      What could the Local Board and Labour Councillor done about that?

      You want them out patrolling the streets? (Armed?) Or going all sort of Act, you know, pushing for 10,000 more cops, 10 more prisons, gangs banned and death penalties?

      • Puckish Rogue 2.4.1

        I like those ideas, I mean we'd have to come up with our own way of doing the death penalty

        Or if the death penalty is too much then more use of LWOP would suffice

        I mean Brenton Tarrant is probably going to go, eventually, loopy with his confinement so maybe that is a just punishment

    • Tricledrown 2.6

      The police are stretched by Covid border duties.Drug use is no doubt up under lockdown.Gangs are getting bigger and nastier since the return of 501s.

      The govt does need to up its gang raids more than they already have.

      But the best thing would be to take away the profits from the drug trade by decriminalised the prescribing with rehab.

      That's expensive in the short term but would save billions in the longterm.

      • Ad 2.6.1

        We have more Police than we've ever had, and lots of funding put into organised crime in successive budgets.

        This needs much more than Police action.

        It also needs political action.

        • Tricledrown 2.6.1.1

          Political action what does that entail more police. Police on every corner.

          More Prison's no action on poverty or housing,drug rehabs.

          • Ad 2.6.1.1.1

            So in standard political action with actual politicians as distinct from elected bureaucrats, one does what any effective politician would do:

            • Get an interview on tv, start a decent and sustained Twitter feed, make some freaking noise about it.
            • Meet with those residents and neighbours nearby, in part to hear their story and in part to figure out what's effective
            • Make regular contact with the Police and tell the world you are doing so, what they are doing, and what they will further do about it.
            • Make dialogue with your other politicians in the vicinity and understand the full extent of what's going on, what if any groups in the community are already working on it, and where possible come to a common position on what is being done, and then …
            • … tell the media that this is being done
            • At that point you have a game on your hands.
            • Repeat above until you have a decent-sized media story, see if you can get some more national-level attention.
            • Call the Minister and request a briefing with the Commissioner and the Minister together. On record.
            • Then you put the results out of that on Facebook and Twitter.
            • With a reasonable volume of noise, full escalation, and a ground knowledge of what useful efforts are in the community, you call a public meeting. Form working groups of concerned citizens. Enable new leaders to emerge. Have really difficult and embarrassing discussions about how we all got here in the first place.
            • With the public meeting, make sure you have some concrete options and actions, and the right people speaking.
            • The usual resulting action plan involves joined-up governance, a fully alerted Minister and Commissioner, more resource coming your way, more Ministries alerted, more of the public sector attending to the needs of your constituents, more community working on the problem.
            • If not, wrinse and repeat until the souffle rises to the correct height.
            • Serve hot.
        • DukeEll 2.6.1.2

          Legalise weed and decriminalise all drugs.

          Get tough on the suppliers, not the consumers.

    • Sabine 2.7

      Deborah Russel is the local MP, right? Sorry dude, you are shit outta luck there, that women will do absolutly nothing.

      The idea that she actually has to work for her pay and perks will give her nothing more then back pain.

      • Rosemary McDonald 2.7.1

        …will do absolutely nothing. Or she could do something, which could be absolutely worse…wink (I'm thinking of those Select Committee hearings)

    • Jimmy 2.8

      Thought this was funny on the web:

      People also ask

      Is Glen Eden a good suburb?

      Glen Eden is a 'more affordable' suburb meaning there's sometimes tension, sometimes violence, always traffic and a few shady characters thrown in for good measure.14/03/2017

    • Craig H 2.9

      Not interfering in police operational enforcement decisions, as required by the Policing Act?

  3. Adrian 3

    I think if they go with Luxon in that toxic environment is that he will struggle hugely as the problem with senior management used to getting their own way is that in politics the roles are completely reversed, the people you think you are commanding have all the power, cannot be fired at will according to whim, but they certainly have the power to fire you. As shown last week.

    • observer 3.1

      Various Twitter chatter suggests Collins is doing a deal with Luxon, pledging her support in return for a place in his team.

      Staggering if true … days after the worst self-destruction by any Nat/Lab leader since Muldoon got sozzled, a new leader with a chance to break free and be the shiny new thing, hugs the corpse instead.

      Luxon should only be saying "Vote for me or you get Bridges". No appeasement necessary.

      • Gezza 3.1.1

        The problem they all have is that Luxon is also a case of: “Vote for me & you don’t actually know what you’ll get, or how good (or otherwise) I’ll be!”

        Voting Luxon, with no Parliamentary track record of note, calls for another act of desperation & hope. How could the National Party sink so fracking low?

        Sir John Key has a lot to answer for – as did Helen Clark – for undertaking no succession planning during their highly successful & long tenures.

        • SPC 3.1.1.1

          He handed on to Bill English, but Winston Peters chose Labour over National in 2020 (Key tried to end NZF back in 2008).

          • Gezza 3.1.1.1.1

            Tru dat, SPC.

            Maybe I should’ve instead faulted Sir John & Helen Clark, ONZ SSI PC, for their failure to take steps to rejeuvenate & organise their parliamentary caucuses to operate effectively in Opposition.

            Both the Labour & National caucuses were visibly in tatters after their respective departures.

            Which probably begs the question: Do – or SHOULD – party leaders have a responsibility to ensure their parliamentary caucuses can function effectively when they leave?

            If it’s left to up the Party hierarchy, the anecdotal evidence is that they’ve not been up to satisfactorily completing that task.

            • SPC 3.1.1.1.1.1

              There is a tendency for those in government to try and renew themselves so that they stay in office (bringing in new talent into Cabinet and into caucus in those years). They don't really focus on the opposition period till it starts and initially they hope to be back in power in one term.

              What National should be doing in the 2023-2026 period is training up its spokespersons to be Ministers (some School of Government course).

              • Gezza

                I dunno if such a course even exists – altho if it doesn’t THERE’s a possible opportunity for universities & private training establishments to explore & exploit. They could maybe tailor some of their Public Service-oriented courses into chargeable short courses.

                That’s the other thing that has stood out to me with Labour this time round. Complete & utter novices when it comes to understanding how government departments work, especially when dealing with Ministers & with MPs. Has made them liable to capture by the departments they should be directing, policy-wise.

                But the key thing an Opposition spokesperson has to do, in my view,mis go ALL OUT to find out all about the portfolio area they’ve been allocated. Travel. Visit people involved in their area of responsibility. Find out what works, what doesn’t what the problems are, what folk think they need etc.

                Twyford – spokesperson for Housing for yonks – becomes Minister & it turns out he knew absolutely NOTHING about it. Complete idiot & waste of a vital portfolio for most of their first term.

                • alwyn

                  What is your opinion of our Minister of Foreign Affairs? Mahuta has been in the job for a bit over 12 months now. She has just been overseas on a frenetic whistle stop tour. How prepared was she?

                  According to this story on Stuff she first visited the Foreign Affairs office just a week before she left. Just before she buzzed of on a trip she went off to see the Department for the very first time!

                  'Mahuta made her first visit to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, a 10-minute walk from Parliament, only the week before she departed for overseas."

                  Did she want them to show her where the countries she was going to were on a map of the world?

                  https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/127103281/foreign-minister-abroad-nanaia-mahuta-dives-into-foreign-diplomacy

                  • Patricia Bremner

                    Re Nanaia, Waikato was in lock down until that week. A small problem to overcome.

                    • alwyn

                      That was her one and only visit to the Department. You aren't really going to claim that the Waikato was in lockdown for the entire period from October 2020 until the middle of November 2021 are you and that Mahuta was never in Wellington during that time?

                  • Patricia Bremner

                    Alwyn Nanaia did a circuit of Councils asking for their plans for paying and planning for 3 waters. When the opportunity arose to go overseas to link up with Trading nations she took it. How do you know she was not in contact with Foreign Affairs during the two Waikato Lock Downs? You don't rate her we get that.

                    • alwyn

                      I gave the quote about it being her only visit to the Department and its source in Stuff in my first comment. If you believe it to be wrong you are welcome to post your own view, and your source.

                      Most Ministers visit their Department at least occasionally.

                • SPC

                  There is certainly a need for some sort of school of government training for Ministers – I knew there is none. It's like obvious.

                  It's why some suggest we need to allow people from outside parliament to be appointed … . But it’s not simply a matter of talent, it's people being prepared for the role better.

                  At the moment one just hopes they have watched Yes Minister and at least know what their ministry does, and what capacity it has (some ministry's have been reformed in recent years and have lost institutional memory and capability).

                  With Twyford and his successor, well if you restrict Kiwi Build homes to first home buyers, there will be only so many who can afford to buy them – that will diminish interest among those expected to build them. All those baby boomers looking to downsize was a big market to throw away.

          • bwaghorn 3.1.1.1.2

            That's why it was so sweet that Peter's finished keys career, yes I know key stood down , but being a gutless slimeball he would have known he was fucked and couldn't face losing.

            • Nic the NZer 3.1.1.1.2.1

              I think Key left for other reasons. When Trump won then Nationals overseas funders realised there was no TPPA payoff coming and pulled their cash. Nationals strategic marketing became very amateurish with English in charge as well. Key didn't want to be the leader without a serious marketing campaign behind him and plenty of money in the party.

              It was English leading into the election and they could not have known Peters would hold the key votes before election night.

              • Patricia Bremner

                Re Key/English… the exposure of the Trusts rort did not help them.
                I commented how Woodhouse has survived his gaffs and lies, I can not help wondering how Goodfellow has survived all those terrible candidate selections… seems “Personal responsibility ” is for others.

              • bwaghorn

                Na hes a clever bugger key he could see nzf were in the mix , he knew winston wouldn't go near him him. So if we're being really generous we could say he stepped down to give national a shot . But Winston rightly fucked national, utus a bitch.

        • tc 3.1.1.2

          Key was dropped into helensville and groomed for the top job and probably told when to go also.

          IMO Succession planning isnt their call to make.

          • Gezza 3.1.1.2.1

            I think Sir John made his own decision when to go. I think he thought it over, decided he had made the most of it that he could & that it was now going to get harder to match past successes, & decided to leave.

            I think he informed the party prez and/or the board & was gone by lunchtime, as they say.

            Caught them all on the hop – but I think that’s how he operates. Used to being his own boss.

            • Robert Guyton 3.1.1.2.1.1

              Accustomed to acting like an arse.

              • Gezza

                Well, if you say so I’m certainly not going to dispute that. But frankly, I’m rather surprised to see you admitting that so freely & so publicly, Robert? 😐

                But I was commenting about Sir John Key. Anything you’d like to say about him? 😳

      • Ad 3.1.2

        Bring her back fast as Spokesperson on Law and Order, Police, Justice, and ACC.

        Government is weak on law and order, and gearing up fast to expand ACC through worker compensation …

        … and the added bonus is Collins would salt the fields of Bridges as the other well-qualified lawyer in their caucus. Even better give his brother-in-law a job as well and divide the family.

        That would make Bridges nothing.

        Burn his villages, poison his wells, crush his livelihood, and ensure that he can never return. Which is the intended result.

        • observer 3.1.2.1

          You mentioned this tactic on another thread. I think it completely underestimates public antipathy to Collins (and that's not just confirmation bias in a lefty echo chamber, it's near universal).

          I hope he follows your advice, but I'd be amazed if he throws away his greatest asset, the fresh break with the past. We'll see.

          • Ad 3.1.2.1.1

            The new leader is going to have to form a strong shadow cabinet on day 1.

            The law and order portfolios are critical to National, and when you go through their list of caucus, Bridges and Collins are the two most qualified. I can't see other contenders.

            I'd like to see the gender breakdown on who doesn't like Collins. My suspicion is women hate her more and men over 40 who are National-leaning tend to like her more. That's where their core vote remains: men over 40.

            • Dennis Frank 3.1.2.1.1.1

              Bridges and Collins

              Richard Harman told Jim Mora & listeners 24 hours ago that both ought to leave parliament. Since he's been in conservative dorkland his entire life he ought to know. Not to mention being an astute political analyst & commentator since the Muldoon era.

              • Ad

                The usual route is for their Party Chair to write them nice fat cheques to ease their way.

                National can't afford another Winston Peters chipping as demoted MP from the backbenches.

                We'll know either way by the end of the week.

            • Peter 3.1.2.1.1.2

              I've not doubt the men over 40, the strong supporters of Collins, see her as The Dominatrix. They also loathe Ardern the most and see her as incapable.

              If they weren't on the tractor rallies lately they would've been in places like bowling clubs and retirement villages cheering them on.

            • Blazer 3.1.2.1.1.3

              Little terrier Simeon Brown is straining at his …leash…

          • bwaghorn 3.1.2.1.2

            Keeping your enemies close is such good trick they made a saying up about it, collins shadow police, bridges shadow finance.

            • observer 3.1.2.1.2.1

              I don't think you've understood the saying.

              Keep your enemies close when they're a threat. An enemy with a future. Not when they're dead and buried. National's single biggest problem was Collins, and they've just got rid of it.

              Every potential Nat voter breathed a sigh of relief when they voted Collins out. Welcoming her back is mad. Is she going to change? No. Never.

              • gsays

                No denying Collins was mana from heaven for Labour pollsters.

                I reckon National's biggest problem is Goodfellow. Till he goes, the 'fish will keep rotting'.

              • bwaghorn

                Given that neither collins or bridges have signaled that they are leaving politics, they obviously ain't dead and buried, atleast in there mind, .
                I had a nat voter tell me he was gutted Colin’s was gone! They dont all see her (through her)how most do.

        • Gezza 3.1.2.2

          Even better give his brother-in-law a job as well and divide the family.

          😳

          Who’s his bro-in-law? 😕

          • Dennis Frank 3.1.2.2.1

            This guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_O%27Connor

            He was a keen fencer and was president of the Auckland University Fencing Club.

            So one wonders how many fences he has put in. Not just adept in using a post-hole borer, has been educated in the theory of that too…

            O'Connor completed training to be a Catholic priest, which involved working on the island of Taveuni in Fiji for two years at a vocational training centre, prison chaplaincy at Mount Eden Prison, military chaplaincy at Waiouru Army Base, and spending time with people in hospitals and hospices. He did not seek ordination, deciding instead to study and pursue a career in politics.

            O'Connor graduated from the University of Auckland with a Bachelor of Arts in Geography and Political Studies (his Political Studies Honours dissertation looked at the works of Rene Girard), a Bachelor of Theology, and a Master of Arts with First Class Honours (Political Studies).

            Not just a pretty face, huh? surprise

        • Patricia Bremner 3.1.2.3

          No thanks Ad. Have you forgotten Judith's fudged stats?

      • Treetop 3.1.3

        If the rumour of Collin's doing a deal with Luxon is true Luxon is not leadership material as anything to do with Collin's turns to foul custard. Collin's is the common denominator. Just ask those in the National Party who have exited in the last 18 months.

        Were Luxon to be elected as the leader of the National Party put Collin's on the back bench with the least responsibility you can give her. Then watch the polling. This comment applies to the new leader as well.

        • observer 3.1.3.1

          Agreed. He can't make her quit Parliament, but he can make it clear she has no future in his team. As Key did with Brash (and it worked).

      • Anne 3.1.4

        "Twitter chatter suggests Collins is doing a deal with Luxon, pledging her support in return for a place in his team."

        If its true then it is the latest example of the nature of the beast that is National. They are devoid of scruples. Those Nat MPs who got out before the last election must be so thankful they did.

        It would not surprise me in the least if Luxon is having talks with Collins and probably Bridges as well. I concluded some time ago that despite his professed Christian attitudes, Luxon is as unethical as the rest of them.

        We don't see Wayne Mapp here any more, but I wonder what he thinks of the current National Party. I suspect not much.

        • Mark Craig 3.1.4.1

          I am staunch Labour but would cheerfully have a beer withWayne Mapp and Chester Burrows,they are reasonable personable men.Probably explains why they are no longer there.What a bunch of complete duds the natz have tried to foist on the Kiwi public recently,well at least back to Aaron Gilmore.Ther are lots of others to many to name.

    • Gezza 3.2

      Interesting & strikes me as very pertinent observation, Adrian. 👍🏼

      Luxon would have to build a team utilising political nouse & skills he’s never developed. His training stint so far has only been a series of lessons in how not to run things as leader.

    • SPC 3.3

      As with Shearer this is really too early. Even Key had a full term (by its end Finance Spokesperson into the 2005 campaign) to prepare him.

      • Ad 3.3.1

        So Bridges then?

        • Gezza 3.3.1.1

          Has to be Reti, imo. Sensible, articulate, considers matters & comments intelligently & carefully , probably no real internal enemies….

          Deputy either Bridges (chance for redemption, strong on lawn order, a bonus at present) or Willis (for the female vote)?

        • SPC 3.3.1.2

          It's the role Collins took on in 2020 and which he was tasked with and would have fulfilled but for the pandemic.

          Until then they were hoping to remove a one term government they had portrayed as illegitimate.

          And he is one of the last of the former Key-English Cabinet era (Kaye, Adams and Joyce have gone) so it's sort of a legacy.

          It's simply too early for Luxon, Bishop, Willis and Stanford – for them it's via being deputy.

          The real alternative to Bridges is Mitchell.

          • Gezza 3.3.1.2.1

            Mitchell, imo, is basically Bridges in another body & without a law degree. 😕

            • SPC 3.3.1.2.1.1

              They chose Bridges over him last time.

              • Gezza

                I know. I was in the country when it happened. 🐧

                I wasn’t surprised. Their accents are very similar, but Simon’s younger & he has a law degree. Mitchell’s too “common” for the National Party blue bloods.

                Who’d want to be a National Party Caucus Member right now, eh? Not me. Big decision.

                • SPC

                  The only prototype for a Luxon appointment is that of Brash (though his background was in economic/monetary governance at the public nation state level). Brash, of course, decided on the Orewa play – kiwi not iwi and the across the board tax cut advantaging those who had rather than the more targeted tax credit to lower income families (doubling up on the Douglas Richardson reforms that suited the white middle class).

                  Luxon might do the same (He Puapua etc), but with an aspect of social conservative Christian – as per Bill English paternalism.

                  • Gezza

                    We need some serious social & community-building restructuring, not more BAU under the current settings. Luxon will not be the choice of the majority of voters if he’s picked. Not unless the Ardern administration seriously screws up & doesn’t seriously address the most pressing problems in Kiwiland (apart from Covid) right now.

                    Income inequality, housing / rental unaffordability, rise of gangs, guns, & violent crime, lack of productive investment beyond housing, skill shortages, povidy, especially child povidy, mental health & health system deficiencies, serious, effective prisoner rehab / anti-gang programmes etc.

                    An evangelical (Bible Bashing) Xtian is most likely going to look for & sanction perecived moral shortcomings rather than apply the parable of the Good Samaritan, which is help people, no matter who they are or what they’ve done or should have done, provide a hand up, help people, help people.

                    • SPC

                      Sure sufficient and affordable housing and related domestic upskilling (to reduce dependence on migration) to ensure more are employed and higher incomes. The government is onto that one.

                      Getting productive investment without easy migration of voluminous extra workforce would require a bit of picking winners focus (gaming etc) and maybe restricting foreign student intake to training for selected sectors of the economy (two birds etc, food tech, engineering, science, farming and horticulture research).

                      Health capacity (more staff and more available drug rehab as well as prison programmes – you want all leaving job capable and with one to go to) and better direction of investment to reduce health care dependence (the same way ACC invests to get people back to work) – for example all those with diabetes 2 gets the drug that allows then some hope of avoiding a decline towards dialysis.

                      With community safety, there is the 501 influence (deportees from Oz). I would criminalise Oz originated gangs, after their banks it's time for zero tolerance.

                    • Gezza

                      @ SPC

                      Do you see Luxon as likely to initiate such policy measures?

  4. Anker 4
    • francesca 4.1

      I find it weird that the outrage was over matauranga not being placed in the category of science, which in this context encompasses the scientific method, originating in Europe in the 1600s.

      The much broader meaning of science is knowledge, and of course this would include matauranga, but this is not what was being discussed

      Once again, its almost like there is a wilful confusion of the meaning of words , in order to provoke a confrontation and stimulate outrage

      We need to get our terms straight, and that requires discussion

      • SPC 4.1.1

        Sure knowledge (objective or subjective observation) only informs scientific method – which emerged with academic freedom from Christian authority in society. Which left that religion with two directions, reason based, or faith alone.

        The idea that science must conform to our political imperatives (Tiriti partnership) is risking capture of academic freedom to accord with (proposed) governance arrangements.

      • Ad 4.1.2

        It's a bit more than a taxonomic tussle. Agree that the manufacture of outrage is just getting wearying.

        The ideological contests about the local meaning of history within the curriculum are going to get noisier next year.

        And the infection of bullshit ideology against science using the scientific method within vaccination is well attested this year more than any other I can name in my lifetime.

      • weka 4.1.3

        I think it's both semantics and culture (and power). We could for instance say Western science and Matauranga Māori to distinguish between the body of knowledge and practices that encompass the scientific method that derive from the West, and the body of knowledge that includes but isn't limited to empirical processes that Māori have traditionally used.

        But then there are scientists who object to the prefixing of western, science is just science. To my mind, taking WS out of its cultural context is an unacknowledged political act. It's trying to make it pure in a way that it just isn't (nothing is), but it also tries to position it as the ascendant way of knowing, that that sits above all else. Which takes us back to Judeo-Christian world views that are hierarchical.

        Indigenous world views tend to be both/and. Science is useful, so are these other ways of knowing.

        Add into that colonisation and racism and you have a battle over power.

        The problem here is that the people with the least power have the best understanding of multiple languages, and the people with the most power struggle to recognise that there is more than one language, and when they do they tend to do stupid shit culturally because the understanding isn't innate. Outrage at colonisation instead of decolonising one's mind.

        • gsays 4.1.3.1

          Well said weka.

          I would add the influence of commerce into the mix.

          There was a wee article on RNZ talking about a tree bark in (I think) Samoa. Taken as a tea, it is pain relief.

          "but it also tries to position it as the ascendant way of knowing, that that sits above all else"

          I'm find that attitude a lot round these parts. All too easy to dismiss the 'worming medication that dare not speak it's name' as a potential Covid prophylactic, despite it's impact overseas.

          • Gezza 4.1.3.1.1

            I think weka’s nailed it too. Most of the science that might be termed Western Science or “Pure Science” is basically Physics. Maybe perhaps Chemistry too. And Mathematics – which isn’t, strictly speaking, a science but is intricately invloved in many – astrophysics, for one example.

            All the other sciences are basically observational. Things are observed and/or tried, and the results are noted, analysed & discerned patterns or constant outcomes are written up as predictable results = scientific “fact”.

            Even Medicine works like that. It’s just accumulated knowledge, not everything requires theoretical physics, altho often that can be employed to understand what’s happening at the atomic or molecular levels.

            Matauranga Māori, in, say, well-developed horticultural methods, & widespread evidence of soil composition & growing medium & storage experiments, to enable growing of kumara & some other plants well beyond their original tropical climate limits, is knowledge in one language, and science in another, just as much as what ag & hort scientists have been doing for decades at Massey & Lincoln are.

            Ditto Rongoa, Maori traditional healing practices & knowledge. In fact this is an area getting increasingly studied at universtities to see what native plants & fungi etc have useful medicinal & chemical properties that have until now been overlooked.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 4.1.3.2

          Indigenous world views tend to be both/and. Science is useful, so are these other ways of knowing.

          This is an unashamed plug for modern science and its methods as a way (not necessarily the only way) of deepening our understanding of many things. First knowing, then questions, and finally (if you ask the right questions and use the right tools) maybe a little understanding. One doesn't have to be scientist to see, and so know that Penicillium moulds can stop the growth of certain bacteria (although the original observation was fortuitous) – but can other ways of knowing help to understand why?

          Science and other ways of knowing tell us that (usually) what goes up must come down – where science excels is in developing a partial understanding of why things come down. 'Science' has developed so many tools to observe objects and events that are invisible to our natural senses (we are clever apes), and collectively humans will always know (so much) more than they understand – that goes for all ways of knowing, imho.

          Ode to a Flower: Richard Feynman’s Famous Monologue on Knowledge and Mystery, Animated
          All kinds of interesting questions which the science knowledge only adds to the excitement, the mystery and the awe of a flower. It only adds. I don’t understand how it subtracts.

          Richard Feynman on the Role of Scientific Culture in Modern Society
          So today we are not very well off, we don’t see that we have done too well. Men, philosophers of all ages, have tried to find the secret of existence, the meaning of it all. Because if they could find the real meaning of life, then all this human effort, all this wonderful potentiality of human beings, could then be moved in the correct direction and we would march forward with great success. So therefore we tried these different ideas. But the question of the meaning of the whole world, of life, and of human beings, and so on, has been answered very many times by very many people. Unfortunately all the answers are different; and the people with one answer look with horror at the actions and behavior of the people with another answer. Horror, because they see the terrible things that are done; the way man is being pushed into a blind alley by this rigid view of the meaning of the world. In fact, it is really perhaps by the fantastic size of the horror that it becomes clear how great are the potentialities of human beings, and it is possibly this which makes us hope that if we could move things in the right direction, things would be much better. What then is the meaning of the whole world?

    • bwaghorn 4.2

      Oh common we must all bow to the new religion of maori culture running the country,

      If it isnt peer reviewed it isnt science.

  5. Reality 5

    One of the best Stuff articles in the Dominion Post today by Donna Miles. "Time for National Party to embrace kindness". For too long National has been all about nastiness, back stabbing, dirty politics, sleaze. Politics is not all sunshine and roses, but there should surely be a much greater degree of human decency displayed by National.

    • Puckish Rogue 5.1

      I don't want kindness, I want competence.

      • observer 5.1.1

        The most competent thing the opposition could do is stop under-estimating the PM's competence.

        • Puckish Rogue 5.1.1.1

          Not kicking people out of state homes could be seen as kindness

          Unless you're living next door

          • SPC 5.1.1.1.1

            They adopted a principle of responsibility as housing provider of last resort. But they have yet to work out how to deal with tenants who take no responsbility for their behaviour towards neighbours. And legally, as landlords, they have a duty of care to protect these neighbours as their tenants.

            • RedLogix 5.1.1.1.1.1

              Offshore islands – but I'm guessing that wouldn't be kind enough.

              • SPC

                There is a place for three strikes in Kainga Ora tenancy.

                If they let me at it, I would have (social credit) categories for both housing and tenants and match accordingly.

                Those who were peaceful would have peaceful neighbours, those who were respectful would have the same as neighbours, others would be co-existing with those just like themselves.

                And some would have nice properties and live in nice areas and others would not. The problem here, as you note is where that would be – nimbyism.

                There are the most run down motels they have, there are areas by industrial zoned land for trailer parks.

                • RedLogix

                  Constructive ideas there. I was of course being somewhat sarcastic above, but hell there are no easy solutions to this.

                • Ad

                  That's pretty close to the Chinese model, and a much stronger version of Bill English's version of social development which Labour threw out and replaced with legislation on deprivation indices.

                  This Labour government no longer has the will to do anything with Maori-specific problems (other than the occasional Treaty settlement).

                  All this government does is get spanked by every stroppy Maori leader who believes that every state institution is inherently racist, and just can't move beyond the spanking.

                • Ad

                  They already have what you describe. They are called jails.

                  • SPC

                    Not really, people go to jails from whatever housing they reside in when they offend sufficiently.

                • McFlock

                  Trouble with concentrations of antisocial elements is they magnify off each other and gan warfare emerges for real, corner by corner and body by body.

                  But I guess that's fine as long as it doesn't scare the middle classes.

                  • SPC

                    It's not the middle classes doing the suffering in their Kainga Ora tenancy.

                    And the point of the three strikes approach is to allow a way back for those who appreciate there are consequences to their actions. Such as 6 months later being able to re-apply (from their lowest rung category 3 property placement) for a tenancy at category 2. Or with a second strike a year later etc.

                    • McFlock

                      I'd be more interested in sending social workers or similar out to figure out the problems and maybe provide some value for the people to work as part of society, rather than kicking people out of homes of last resort.

                      Because if you're not in a home of last resort, you're homeless and probably on someone else's couch, spreading the fun.

                    • SPC

                      I don't disagree about trying to sort it out first – but without the option of removal this is leading nowhere (Herald report at the weekend).

                      And sure, as provider of last resort, there has to be a sinbin provided, which is why I suggested a social credit and strikes system – with people removed from category 1 and 2 housing after strikes (suspensions) to category 3 housing (with suspended others) – such as low quality motels and trailor parks near industrial zoned land.

                    • McFlock

                      Thing is, removal just displaces the problem. It doesn't solve anything.

                      We're not talking, in general, about people who have benefitted from society all that much. Keep kicking someone when they're down, if they're used to it they'll just say "f you". Concentrate them all together in cat-3 hovels (because the number of caravan parks will be limited), and it's just a hotbed for gangs.

                      Treating them in place would have more success, but that would involve expense and inter-agency coordination.

                    • SPC

                      It does actually solve the problem for those who remain in Kainga Ora housing … .

                      And each individual counselled about the suspension of place policy has the opportunity to end their poor behaviour (and that includes with the end of each suspension period).

                      So not only are we unable to manage gangs, fear of people ending up in them is reason to allow Kainga Ora housing to become unsafe for others?

                      PS I would not use existing holiday parks but set up ones in/near industrial zone areas (we have spare vans and would just need to supply in utilities etc).

                    • McFlock

                      Displacing problems simply causes problems for other people. If we bury them out of sight and out of mind, they just get worse until they come back into sight.

                      The range of possible outcomes seem to be:

                      • some will stay in the industrial slum. So we end up with a low income, high crime, high drug use area.
                      • Others will inflict themselves as house "guests" (shit gets complicated) in other neighbourhoods. Harder to track if they finally do something that the cops will want them for, and the problem is simply displaced.
                      • After a few weeks in the hovel, they will become upstanding members of society and a pleasure to live beside.

                      But I guess as long as we use industrial areas to stack the dispossessed rather than maybe being a worksite, it'll be "out of sight, out of mind" for a while.

                    • SPC

                      TINA, the government has an obligation to be a responsible landlord, so that people have safe tenancies.

                • weka

                  There is a place for three strikes in Kainga Ora tenancy.

                  Where do people go after three strikes?

                  • SPC

                    My concept was based on three suspension periods excluded from "mainstream" housing (say 6 months, then 1 year and then multiple year). After that they would be stuck down at Level 3 category housing with others like themselves (the cheap motels we use for the homeless and trailor parks by industrial zoned areas).

                    • weka

                      that sounds like a recipe for social disintegration though. What about the other people in the motels? Are they more deserving of violent neighbours that people in state houses?

                    • weka

                      and why would you want to put people who are already struggling into a more stressful situation?

                    • SPC

                      The motels would be ones only used for those suspended from Kainga Ora housing (as would the trailor parks).

                    • SPC

                      and why would you want to put people who are already struggling into a more stressful situation?

                      Those abusing others in their Kainga Ora tenancies – such as Swordfish’s parents are the ones placing stress on others.

              • Puckish Rogue

                Naah too much native flaura and fauna for them to destroy

                • alwyn

                  Haven't your employers got a little house available on the grounds of the Whanganui Prison Puckish?

                  The one that Stewart Murray Wilson occupied. Would that be suitable for the very worst of the State House tenant pool?

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    There are quite a few of those type of houses on quite a few prison grounds but its something not widely publicized and while I get your point those houses are in frequent use…

              • Cricklewood

                I hear Pitt Island is lovely this time of year 🙃

                • RedLogix

                  I was hoping someone would suggest Australia.devil

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    Pay a third world country 50 grand US a year for each prisoner, pay them the total amount (ie 10 year sentence = 500 grand US) at the start of the sentence and let them know they can keep the money whether the prisoner lives or dies.

                    Relax people its not a serious suggestion angel

            • Gypsy 5.1.1.1.1.2

              "But they have yet to work out how to deal with tenants who take no responsbility for their behaviour towards neighbours. "

              Perhaps they should have figured that out before they "adopted a principle of responsibility as housing provider of last resort".

            • Sabine 5.1.1.1.1.3

              As landlords the government has a duty of care towards not only their dangerous tenants, but also to the law abiding people that have the misfortune to live to near or in proximity to any of these people. And thus not doing anything about this "domestic terrorism" – and that is what that is and most certainly feels to those that have to live near these people is at best cowardly but can never be construed at 'kindness'.

              Last, for any tenant that is evicted another family will find a property. So it is not as if we had an increase in our homeless population, but right now what we do is punish good people for being good people and we are rewarding anti social behaviour.

              And it seems that our government in its want to accommodate a few will easily abandon the many, as clearly the situation about people bullying their neighbours has shown.

              • Craig H

                Landlords only have a duty of care to tenants. Tenants have a duty of care to neighbours, but landlords don't unless the neighbours are also tenants.

                • Treetop

                  Yes you point out a big flaw.

                  Another flaw. 3 tenancies in a subdivided house. 2 of the 3 tenancies have a property manager and the landlord manages the other one. The property manager is not responsible for the landlord's tenant. When the landlord's tenant complains about the property manager's management the landlord's tenant then has to deal with both the landlord and the property manager.

                  • Treetop

                    Just to clarify, I was talking about private rental

                  • Craig Hall

                    Or another classic is unruly neighbours where one or both own their own property. Even if one is a rental, only the landlord can take action against the tenant, and they can't be forced to do it.

                • Sabine

                  In this case the Landlord is not a private person but the Government.

                  Just a reminder in case you forgot. And government has a duty of care for all its citizens not just some super duper special minority that can be allowed to terrorise their neighbours because the government finds it in the too hard basket to a. evict these people who are in breach of their contractual obligations, and b. can't find accommodation for these people were they can't terrorise other people who simply want to live in peace.

                  But then maybe this is done with reason in mind? Sort of a forced ghetto-isation of some areas that are attractive for developpers if we could just get some people to sell up and move. Make life hell for them and wait. Surely the dears will sell up soon enough. Gentrification, Win Win Win. Never mind the trauma that is caused.

                  Gangs are us – Labour 2023

                  • Craig Hall

                    Moving them on to more suitable accommodation is fine (which might be in a more rural area with more basic, hardier accommodation as mentioned by other posters here), but just evicting them moves the problem on to private landlords or local government (if public land in a city) depending on where they end up. Not an approach that takes into account all citizens, I would have thought.

                    • Sabine

                      Well at the moment the governments approach excludes all of the law abiding citizens that have to suffer 'domestic abuse' at the hand of these people.

                      but i guess its ok.

                  • Treetop

                    Duty of care is important.

          • GreenBus 5.1.1.1.2

            If the low life are kicked out away from lovelyoldies no1 and go straight in next to lovelyoldies no2 is that an acceptable solution? That's all that happens.

            • Puckish Rogue 5.1.1.1.2.1

              If you get kicked out you go to the back of the queue

              What message are we teaching here?

              Do whatever you like, act however you and not only will we keep looking after you we'll prioritise you ahead of others

              Wheres the motivation to change

            • SPC 5.1.1.1.2.2

              Not at the moment, they stay where they are. And there are alternatives to placing them in with a new set of victims. See above 10.34 am.

      • mac1 5.1.2

        That's the second crack you've had at kindness today, PR.

        I've just had a meeting with a widow who has asked my to sing Auld Lang Syne at the funeral.

        The words include, "We'll tak a cup o' kindness yet for the days of auld lang syne." Robbie Burns, a proto-socialist, knew.

        So, what's involved in 'kindness'? Google tells us: the quality of being friendly, generous, and considerate."

        When one is considerate, then one is weighing the pros and cons. Competence is therefore an adjunct to kindness.

        Kindness is not just a single concept existing in a vacuum. It relies on and uses other qualities.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 5.1.3

        I too would settle for competent Nats, sans Key's Dirty Politics legacy – still waiting.

        Barclay
        Ross and Bridges
        Muller
        Collins
        Bridge
        Boag, Walker and Woodhouse
        Falloon
        Smith
        Goudie and King – where do they find them?

        The five most terrible, horrible, no-good very bad days in recent National Party history [1st linked to by observer, 26 Nov. on OM]
        Politics is magnificent, crucial, indispensable, horrible, and sometimes just hideously painful. The National Party of New Zealand has had an unfair share of terrible days in the last three or so years. Most have played out like one-act plays, tableaux lit up in tragicomic colours. Here are the very terriblest five.

        Unfair – unfair!

        • Mark Craig 5.1.3.1

          Drowsy you left out Aaron Gilmore ,Slater and Mike Lust ,they have just crawled under rocks licking their wounds for now.

      • Tricledrown 5.1.4

        The younger generation and women and polynesians aren't interested in National. That's more than half of voters.

        That's why National need a new approach that's why Reti is my pick he is a very intelligent cool calm and collected.

        The attack dogs like Muldoon and Collins are well past there used by date.

        Luxon is likely to go the way of Mueller well out of his depth, Bridges is a dick as he has admitted that doesn't sit well with women .Collins may have poisoned his chalice.

      • weka 5.1.5

        I don't want kindness, I want competence.

        Very Nat to think the two are incompatible.

        • Puckish Rogue 5.1.5.1

          Both would be nice but if it comes down to one or the other competence wins every time

          • weka 5.1.5.1.1

            Very Nat, kindness is an optional extra 😉

            It’s basically the same thing. The inability to design policy and practice that does both. Just build the both in at the start.

            I would add, the problem with the Kainga Ora situation isn’t kindness, it’s lack of boundaries, and I would guess lack of imagination on how to design better systems.

      • AB 5.1.6

        Competence and kindness belong to totally different categories – competence is operational, kindness is moral. They bear no relation to each other – to frame them as opposites is a category mistake.. I can be incompetently cruel or competently kind – or vice versa.

  6. Ad 6

    So here we have Glen Eden going through what New Lynn has been going through for a while. Multiple gunshots, house on fire, armed Police swarming the area and the street blocked off.

    Armed police swarm Glen Eden, Auckland house, reports of gunfire, fire rages inside – NZ Herald

    Hey government: this is one of the top 4 strongest Labour-supporting areas in the country.

    Do something.

    • Poission 6.1

      The hands off the gangs policy to enable contact tracing of covid has been a failed initiative,as the spread in the underbelly has persisted.

      The gangs with overeaching terror tactics,enslavement of vulnerable communities with drug supply and standover tactics,have essentially lost their social licence to exist in a normal society.

      Here the police should be making life very difficult for the gangs,with targeted stop and seizure,confiscation of vehicles operated by not licenced drivers etc.

      • Puckish Rogue 6.1.1

        Agreed. We need a proper crack down on gangs

        We haven't had "get tough on gangs", we've had people say we have but the reality is we haven't

        I wonder if it's because gangs, mostly, prey on lower socio economic areas…

        • Dennis Frank 6.1.1.1

          I've been wondering about the bipartisan tolerance of gangs ever since Muldoon teamed up with Black Power.

          We need a political scientist to analyse the whys & wherefores of this. Tedious to have to encounter `get tough on the gangs' bullshit every election year when we know National & Labour aren't serious about doing so.

          I suspect civil rights is the devil in the detail. Lawyers employed by National & Labour have probably quietly advised the politicians to just utter the platitudes because designing effective legislation is too hard.

        • Gezza 6.1.1.2

          No. It’s becos of whanaungatanga. It’ll hit the Māori vote in too many places – notwithstanding that many Māori loathe the gangs; they still have whanau members IN them.

          Going after the gangs is necessary but has to be very carefully explained & done in close cooperation with Key Māori influencers. Best organised BY a Māori MP. Finding one with both gonads & the mana to take on the job is the tricky bit.

        • Blazer 6.1.1.3

          How about Banks…',have essentially lost their social licence to exist in a normal society.

          'A Second Female Lawyer Who Worked at JPMorgan Chase Says Fraud Is Condoned at the Bank (wallstreetonparade.com)

      • RedLogix 6.1.2

        The gangs with overeaching terror tactics,enslavement of vulnerable communities with drug supply and standover tactics,have essentially lost their social licence to exist in a normal society.

        Yup. In pre-modern times they were deemed 'outlaws' and beyond it's protection.

        Look to Mexico for an example. I've been working recently with a Brazilian colleague (a really cool guy) who has similar horror stories from his home city. We aren't there yet – but are headed in all the wrong directions on this. Turning this train wreck around:

        An unequivocal 'all of Parliament declaration' that gangs and their criminal lifestyle will not be tolerated. A similar whole hearted response from Maori iwi leadership.

        A carrot – those who chose to repudiate the gangs, the regalia and criminality will be placed into a Corrections program offering best possible effort to rebuild their lives under strict conditions and monitoring.

        A stick – those who chose to remain inside the gangs lose the privileges of citizenship. The police are free to hunt them down and intern them indefinitely as necessary to keep them away from the rest of NZ. No legal process applies as they chosen to be outside of it.

        In the final analysis I'd bet that the latter category would amount to no more than a 100 incorrigible individuals.

        • Puckish Rogue 6.1.2.1

          I'd vote for any party that proposed that

        • Drowsy M. Kram 6.1.2.2

          A stick – those who chose to remain inside the gangs lose the privileges of citizenship. The police are free to hunt them down in intern them indefinitely as necessary to keep them away from the rest of NZ. No legal process applies as they chosen to be outside of it.

          "lose privelages of citizenship" – "hunt them down" – "inter them indefinitely" – "no legal process applies".

          If a majority of NZers approved these 'measures' then it might be time to move to Australia. At least you're nailing your colours to the mast – "inter" seems extreme; even internment would be going too far, imho. But the blood is up, clearly.

          https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300254706/you-are-in-limbo–deportee-says-australias-detention-centres-a-brutal-experience

          • RedLogix 6.1.2.2.1

            As I said above – I think there are no easy answers to this. There are only hard ones.

            Otherwise I'm all ears on what you propose.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 6.1.2.2.1.1

              Just opining that your proposed "stick" seems a suite of extreme measures. Maybe you know that, and are using your stick to stir?

              I support your "carrot", not your "stick". But there's no denying the attraction of using 'just beatings' with a 'righteous stick' to address aberrant behaviours.

              • RedLogix

                The problem with the 'carrot' only approach is that at present being in a gang offers far more power and status than any other legitimate legal path. You have to close that off with the stick so that the carrot becomes the better choice.

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  Imho your 'closing off stick' is too extreme, but we can agree to disagree.

                • Stuart Munro

                  This is in fact what is wrong with the neoliberal consensus

                  a gang offers far more power and status than any other legitimate legal path

                  NZ has a massive and growing underclass for whom no legitimate legal path really exists. Our current economic settings reward real estate speculation rather than actual work. Labour need to stop pretending the default Treasury nonsense is valid, and reform the employment and real estate markets until those paths are the rule, not the exception.

                  • McFlock

                    Heck, commit fraud over several years to in-effect borrow $1.3mil from taxpayers: pay a small fine, get community D, and you aren't even judged to be too untrustworthy to run a business.

                    I wonder if $30k would even the interest rate for the 'loan' if he got it legitimately.

                    If you're "upstanding" enough, even the illegal paths are legitimate.

                  • RedLogix

                    All more or less true Stuart and I'm not quibbling with your sentiment. But criminal gangs merely entrench the 'underclass' – it's the most vulnerable in our society they prey on.

                    NZ has a massive and growing underclass for whom no legitimate legal path really exists.

                    If you mean in comparison to what being in a gang can offer then obviously not. Nothing legal or legitimate can match that for most people, nor should it.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      Gangs are necessarily complex, and the roles people play in them are reasonably varied. In some cases they offer the kinds of benefits that conventional society is supposed to offer ordinary citizens – justice for grievances, a sense of community or solidarity, perhaps a way forward. Fitting all of that into a punitive reprisal or deterrence model is fraught with problems.

                      But the path forward, through hard work and pro-social activity must not be allowed to close. Arguably it has become unreasonably difficult already. All those 'goods' the market was going to provide, that somehow never eventuated – this is the misgovernance debt – and it is probably the largest item preventing NZ from prospering.

                      Treasury never even consider it – like real estate inflation, their model deliberately excludes the data. This makes them at best woefully incompetent, and at worst simple charlatans. Hari Seldon they ain’t.

          • Sabine 6.1.2.2.2

            replace 'gang member' with 'anti vaccers'

            still think the same?

            • RedLogix 6.1.2.2.2.1

              In my view they’re quite different.

              Anti-vaxxers at worst are objecting to the law, while gangs reject it completely.

              • Sabine

                My comment was to DTM.

                "remove citizens ship' – vacine passport – second class citizens etc

                "hunt them down' – find them and coerce vaccination of the unwilling

                'inter them indefinately' – lock them up in their homes and prevent them from going places

                "no legal process applies ' – laws passed under urgency despite opposition, and own members not being happy about it.

                My point was that we are as a society quite happy to make live unlivable for a small group of 'anti social' people – anti vaxxers in that case, we are quite happy to consider to lock them out of public life via restrictions, we are quite happy to find them in the public via the use of a 'passport' and we created a law that allows us to do all these things under urgency, in the middle of the night.

                But we c an not enforce tenancy laws against anti social people who make living hell for the people who have the misfortune of living in the same street, and we can not – it seems – to enforce laws against the very anti social gang members.

                But then, kindness for the few is cheaper still then shit fuck all of the many.

                • RedLogix

                  My comment was to DTM.

                  Yes I saw that after I made the comment. I thought it was a good question you raised.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 6.1.2.2.2.2

              Te COVID's 'goal' is to increase its number – it does not 'care' about human efforts to assist ("anti-vaccers") or hinder (pro-vaxxers) its spread.

              The number of vaccine doses given to protect against COVID-19 now matches the world population.

              54.1% of the world population has received at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine.
              7.9 billion doses have been administered globally, and 27 million are now administered each day.
              Only 5.7% of people in low-income countries have received at least one dose.
              https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

              Can only imagine the scale of death and suffering "the golden billion" might be experiencing now if we were still waiting for an effective vaccine. And the future is uncertain – although highly unlikely (thanks to the efforts of researchers and healthcare professionals), we may experience it yet.

              As the number of people currently infected with COVID-19 pushes past 20 million for the first time, my sense is that this pandemic is not over. But global COVID-19 deaths (~7000 per day; less than half the peak 10 months ago) have remained remarkably stable for nearly 2 months, so mass vaccination and other improvements in medical interventions are helping.

        • bwaghorn 6.1.2.3

          I'm all for cracking down on gangs but making a large chunk of society outside the law, will have unintended consequences, nothing more dangerous than thugs with nothing to lose I expect.

          • RedLogix 6.1.2.3.1

            That's a reasonable thought – but as I suggested I don't think it would amount to a 'large chunk' of incorrigible individuals who chose to remain in the gangs given such a stark choice.

            On the other hand countries like Mexico and Brazil that due to weak and often corrupt governments have not acted firmly – now really do have a large chunk of their populations acting 'outside of the law' – and the consequences are not 'unintended' and not hard to discern.

            • gsays 6.1.2.3.1.1

              As you've said, there are no easy nor quick answers.

              Belonging or connection (aside from gangs) is what is missing. Food, building, making something are ways to improve self worth.

              I know, a tad airy fairy but the stick thing isn't anything new to anti-social types, plus you run the risk of inadvertently having children as collateral damage.

              • RedLogix

                Contrary to what you might imagine – I totally agree with you. Something like this is what will eventually get us out of the dysfunction trap the gangs are locked into.

                But it will only be of use when the gangs are ready to choose it. They're not in the least motivated at present.

    • Jimmy 6.2

      Who would want to live in Glen Eden or New Lynn at the moment! Last week we had to wait until Wednesday for the first firearms / violence instance, but I see they have started early this week. Not only this but also a police officer injured trying to stop a fleeing vehicle as you stated above.

      • Ad 6.2.1

        Two officers injured, one person dead.

        Glen Eden shooting: One feared dead, two police officers injured after fire at property – NZ Herald

        Honour to the Police putting their lives in harm's way.

        At least the NZHerald are on to it.

        • Anne 6.2.1.1

          I commented earlier today about the lack of ethics among National Party MPs.

          From what looks like a sad tragedy in Glen Eden, West Auckland this morning, here is Mark Mitchell's twitter response:

          @MarkMitchellMP

          My thoughts are with the family of the Police officer who was run down in New Lynn last night and the two Police officers shot today. Policing under the leadership of Minister Poto Williams and Police Commissioner Andy Coster is becoming more and more dangerous. Step up and lead.

          According the Herald three officers were injured – all in a stable condition in hospital thank goodness.

          I hope Mitchell gets called out big time for his deplorable attempt to politicise a sad outcome.

          • Ad 6.2.1.1.1

            No we need the political spotlight on this.

            Opposition doing its job.

            • Anne 6.2.1.1.1.1

              There is valid reason for the concern over the increase in community violence – much of which is a response to deteriorating social conditions brought on by past National Government social policies – or the lack of them – over many years.

              Mark Mitchell was using the occasion to try and pin the blame on the current minister and the current police commissioner which is a dirty tactic and deserves to be called out. Mind you, as a former practitioner of Dirty Politics it was to be expected from Mitchell.

              • Ad

                The Labour government have had 1.5 terms to get a handle on the issue.

                Gang membership has accelerated massively with this Labour government.

                The buck stops with the Minister.

                Only the politically lazy suggest otherwise.

                • Anne

                  You are in part correct but so am I. Part of that acceleration is due to the Aussie govt's attempt to off-load some of their gang problems onto NZ. Are you saying the NZ govt. is to blame?

                  Anyway it is NOT the issue I originally addressed.

                  Mark Mitchell used the incident to make political capital out of it. He probably did so more for himself than National. He's a p***k.

                  Edit: I see Cricklewood has made a similar point. re the 501s.

                  • higherstandard

                    The opposition's job is to call out failures in government.

                    Mitchell is the spokesman for the opposition on law and order.

                    Minister Williams and Commissioner Coster are arguably failing on a regular basis therefore whether you like it or not Mitchell on this occasion is doing the correct job of a politician in opposition and it's a damn pity there's not more calling of the government to account by what has been a hopeless opposition.

                    • Gezza

                      Yup. Prison muster down. Violent crime up.
                      Is there a connection?
                      Reporters should be digging in to this instead of following the PM around like lapdogs hoping for a crust or some kind of tasty morsel.

                • SPC

                  1.33 terms.

            • Cricklewood 6.2.1.1.1.2

              Seems the gangs have really tooled up possibly in response to the 501s setting up here.

              Very public gun crime seems to have gone through the roof wont be long and someone will be collateral damage.

              There's a rumour floating about that a number were stolen from a store in Palmerston North in the last week or so. Nothing in the news about it though.

          • Jimmy 6.2.1.1.2

            Mitchell doing his job, good on him. Poto not doing her job.

            • mac1 6.2.1.1.2.1

              Jimmy, why Mitchell, and why Poto?

              Why not Mark and Poto? Or Mitchell and Williams?

              Or Mark Mitchell and Poto Williams?

              Do that and you don't run the risk of being labelled a misogynist prick.

              Seen too much of this recently. Early today, it was "Gore and Greta" in an email.

              Last week it was "Jacinda" but "former Prime Minister John Key" and "Deputy Prime Minister Grant Robertson" in a newsletter.

              See the pattern?

              • Ad

                That is some mindlessly weak bullshit.

                We have 7 people dead, multiple Police injured, six houses destroyed, and Police permanently armed in a crimewave but the terminally woke can't have different names used to hold elected members responsible.

                Exhibit A on why the crime wave will continue.

                • mac1

                  So how we talk to each other, how we respect each other, whether we treat each other equally or not, whether we can see each other as people, no matter what sex, age or race has nothing to do with whether we steal from each other, shoot each other or use and sell drugs?

                  Tell me, why is there crime?

                  • Ad

                    Why don't you just sing Imagine like the rest of them.

                    Crime exists because people like shortcuts.

                    Simple.

                    • mac1

                      Second round of mindless name-calling. I can either join you, or wish you a good night.

                      Next you’ll be calling me a Morris Dancer…….

                • Patricia Bremner

                  "Mindless Bullshit" Yeah right Ad Got it. Not yours so mindless devil.

                  Manners are part of diplomacy the beginning of relationships.

                  Your constant blaming of the Government for Gang hostilities implies they caused them. So instead of telling others they are mindless, suggest what you think Poto Williams should do about the Gangs and 501s, plus what the Police should do to avoid getting shot.
                  I’ve just read your reply. “Shortcuts” What do you mean by that cryptic comment. ( lol I will probably wear some of your bile.)

                  • Anne

                    He's been at it all day. Love the way he's accusing others of not thinking straight – that's the nice way of putting it. Think he got out of bed on the wrong side this morning.

              • Shanreagh

                Good points. May have zoomed over some heads though. Language matters.

              • Jimmy

                Well if it makes you feel any better, "Mark doing his job, good on him. Williams not doing her job."

                I honestly didn't even notice….did you think it disrespectful to Poto Williams using only her first name, or disrespectful to Mark Mitchell using only his last name?

                Try adding to the conversation rather than running the risk of being labelled a pedantic prick.

                Imagine if I had made a spelling error in my comment! You would have needed a cup of tea and a lie down.

                • mac1

                  Ask that question of a woman. As I said in my original criticism, there is a difference in the way some people refer to people which seems to be gender based, I gave three recent examples. All three were being critical of the woman involved. All three involved the woman being referred to by her first name only. All three referred to the man by surname. Referring to a woman by her first name only does not accord due respect especially when her status is not mentioned, like Minister etc. but the male is referred to by surname.

                  Why else is it done? You didn't notice. So, instead of slagging me as a pedant, ask a woman whose opinion you trust as to whether she sees a significant difference. She might say that is has been happening for years.

                  I asked my wife. She agreed, with strong body language included.

                  This is not pedantry. This is manners and respect, the basis of human interaction.

                  It is treating women differently and slightingly. What do we call that?

                  I do believe I am adding to the conversation. Does everyone want to discuss this issue, or shy away from it?

                  Is it sexist? If so, on a left wing blog it should be discussed.

                  If you want to argue that someone is wrong and someone is right, and by your language indicate that gender is part of your determination of the argument, then you weaken your argument.

                  They will read you as another sexist man belittling women, and dismiss your opinion accordingly as based on bias rather than logic.

                  Read your comment again. It is purely an opinion, and stated in terms which belittle the one you don't agree with.

                  • Jimmy

                    You really do concentrate on the important issues don't you! Perhaps you should be police minister. Three police seriously injured, and a person dead and you are more concerned with my comment as I only used Poto Williams' first name whereas Mark Mitchell's last name. I guess if I referred to John Key without the "sir" you would be upset too? Or because he's male (or National) it doesn't matter?

                    The thread was about the shootings and that Mark Mitchell made a tweet saying they should "step up and lead".

                    I guess it is easier to attack the messenger(s) if you have no argument.

          • Sabine 6.2.1.1.3

            he has a point.

        • Puckish Rogue 6.2.1.2

          I just don't understand how this happens.

          We have a kind government, scary semi-auto rifles are banned, more co-operation between gangs and government is happening and we have less people in prison than ever before

          That incidents like this are happening more often just doesn't make sense to me

          • Gezza 6.2.1.2.1

            Yes it does, sarky blighter. Stop messing with unsophiticated people’s heads.

          • McFlock 6.2.1.2.2

            Maybe some of the "law-abiding" firearms owners found a better deal than the government buy-back?

            • Puckish Rogue 6.2.1.2.2.1

              Make something illegal and its just another profit stream for gangs

              • McFlock

                How many guns do the gangs illegally import?

                • Puckish Rogue

                  124.23 every 3.2 weeks

                  • McFlock

                    How about if you don't have a source for it, you admit it?

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      How about you admit you didn't like getting made to look like a fool

                    • McFlock

                      ah, the off-topic deflection.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Not at all.

                      You asked an extremely pointless question, a question no one can possibly answer: 'How many guns do the gangs illegally import?

                      It can't be answered because you can never know for sure if you've caught every single firearm that comes in

                      For exampl https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/420215/police-crackdown-on-gangs-gun-suppliers

                      'Last year, 72 firearms were seized at the border.'

                      Thats just at the border, how many firearms are packed in drums and dropped over the side of a boat, come in as machine parts in containers etc

                      We don't know because we don't catch

                      So instead I thought I'd remind of when you thought you could arrogantly spend 5 minutes on google and then prove that myself and an entire court case, from another country mind you, was wrong

                      You couldn't then, you can't now wink

                    • McFlock

                      From your link:

                      Illegal guns 'not being handed in'

                      Williams said it was likely some gun owners did not participate in the buyback and instead sold their guns for more on the black market.

                      Guess they weren't so law abiding as all that, and what we might be seeing is the brief glut from owners who shouldn't have had any in the first place.

                      Unless the gangs are taking up paintball shooting en masse, it also seems that the guns seized at the border could well have been misunderstandings of the legalites rather than smuggling for the gangs.

                      The bulk of guns being caught off the streets would be traceable to import orders, or at least manufacturers. A bit like how we know cocaine is coming in over the border because it doesn't grow here.

                      But your statement of "Make something illegal and its just another profit stream for gangs" is obviously not able to be demonstrated to be a general rule, because as you have ably argued, you once again don't have the evidence to back it up.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Once again you prove you don't know anything

                      'But your statement of "Make something illegal and its just another profit stream for gangs" is obviously not able to be demonstrated to be a general rule, because as you have ably argued, you once again don't have the evidence to back it up'

                      You still don't know smiley

                    • McFlock

                      You made a categorical statement.

                      I asked you whether you had any evidence to support a particular example that falls into that category.

                      You can't back up that categorical statement for that example.

                      I don't know anything because you haven't contributed anything.

                      A winky-face emoji is cute, and all, but doesn't hide that you're making shit up. Again.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/420215/police-crackdown-on-gangs-gun-suppliers

                      8:45 am on 1 July 2020

                      'Last year, 72 firearms were seized at the border.'

                      That was in 2019 so theres more now, that doesn't include weapons smuggled in through boats offshore (a quite popular method I'm told, pack a drum and seal it up and over the side it goes) and still doesn't account for those in containors they miss

                      https://www.newsroom.co.nz/export-delays-loom-as-empty-shipping-containers-pile-up#:~:text=Industry%20figures%20show%20around%20one,one%20million%20leave%20the%20country.

                      'Industry figures show around one million TEUs (twenty-foot equivalent units – the shipping industry’s standard measurement for containers) come into New Zealand each year.'

                      Thats around 2700 20 ft containers per day, every day for a year

                      You think they're all checked?

                      So yes McFlock its, as I said, another profit stream for the gangs, might be small now but will only get bigger

                      laugh

                    • McFlock

                      Keep repeating the same irrelevancies all you want, 72 could just be the number of hunters on tourist visas who didn't put together that their bang-bangs were no longer legal in NZ before putting them in their checked luggage overseas.

                      I mean, the gangs could also be running low-level flights with ex-russian long-haul cargo planes that swoop over, para-drop the contraband, and fly back to from whence they came (with copious air refuelling rendezvous). But until there's actual evidence, it's still just some hot air that doesn't back up your bullshit.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      angel

          • mpledger 6.2.1.2.3

            We give people quite a degree of freedom.

            That freedom allows people to make bad decisions.

            We put what supports we can in place to make those bad decisions less harmful to them and to us.

            It is unknown what would have happened if we had a mean government, with open gun carry, policies that drive gangs underground, and penalising mistakes or bad intentions harshly.

            However, I think we can all imagine.

            • Puckish Rogue 6.2.1.2.3.1

              You think what we have now isn't going to get worse?

              • McFlock

                Have to go a fair way to get as bad as the US.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  Not really a target we should be aiming for

                  • McFlock

                    Best not copy their mistakes, then.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Or we don't copy other ways and come up with something for us by us

                    • McFlock

                      that I can agree with.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      I've long thought as a country we can work how to do things better for ourselves, that we don't have to import everything

                      Not saying we don't look at how others do things but, instead, we look and then, hopefully, improve

                      Which is what gets me about the gun laws, NZ had a good system for firearm ownership and corrections and could be made but instead gone and we aren't any safer

                    • McFlock

                      Which is what gets me about the gun laws, NZ had a good system for firearm ownership and corrections and could be made but instead gone and we aren't any safer

                      Not so sure about that – who knows how things will jiggle out after the last couple of years.

                      Did they do the individual firearms register thing as well as cracking down on semi-autos? That would help cut off the gangs' supply, too.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      'Not so sure about that – who knows how things will jiggle out after the last couple of years.'

                      You think its going to get better?

                      'Did they do the individual firearms register thing as well as cracking down on semi-autos?'

                      – If they have then its news to me and it means my weapons aren't registered

                      'That would help cut off the gangs' supply, too.'

                      – The main problem, as I saw it, was it was run by the police. It should have been run by a separate organisation in conjunction with the police

                      – Had the police down their job properly Brenton Tarrant wouldn't have got his licence

                      – So , to me, a separate, properly funded organisation making improvements as and when needed would have done a better job

                    • McFlock

                      The chch prick thing was probably more about trying to help "a good sort" (with all the… structural issues that might entail) because the arms officer was more sympathetic to gun ownership than keen on being a stickler for the regs. I'm not sure a separate organisation would change that, especially if the more politically active gun lobbyists got their hands on it (via representative boards or stakeholder consultation, whatever).

                      I'm annoyed about the lack of gun registration, though. That's one thing I'd really like to see.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      'The chch prick thing was probably more about trying to help "a good sort" (with all the… structural issues that might entail) because the arms officer was more sympathetic to gun ownership than keen on being a stickler for the regs.'

                      – No it was more likely laziness.

                      I went through over half an hour and my referees went, combined, for over 2 hours and they certainly weren't some bozos off the internet.

                      I was also denied and had to send the request up the chain to get it allowed.

                      Had the person dealing with Branton done what they were supposed to he wouldn't have got his licence, at that time.

                      'I'm not sure a separate organisation would change that, especially if the more politically active gun lobbyists got their hands on it (via representative boards or stakeholder consultation, whatever).'

                      – Thats why you need to have police on board, to oversee, to make sure its being run correctly

          • bwaghorn 6.2.1.2.4

            Yip na I reckon we should let fallas like you grab you ar17s and go patrol the streets of grey lynn, that'll solve it no problem!!@

    • Patricia Bremner 6.3

      Why do you think Dutton and Scottie from marketing have sent the 501s here? Deep into Labour territory? How did they get their wealth across the Tasman?

      You said it yourself "National are strong on Law and Order" so a provided problem for Labour?

      When you house everyone you can… "What about the neighbours, in a Pandemic when Police are doing Border and MIQ duties?" Anger grows

      When you close the borders to keep the virus out "What about an Opposition which shares private patient information and lies about imaginary people getting free stays in MIQ, Accuses the Government of tyranny?" Cries of Freedom and Travel Bubbles so the virus gets in. Woodhouse is still there!!

      What happens to a vaccination programme that is too anglicized and fails to put Island and Maori explanations forward? Too many Polynesian under 30 fell into the last cohort to be vaccinated and by then had fallen into internet/or religious rabbit holes and caused the Government to latterly try to retrieve the cause with "for your Whanau and Village". Bloomfield is not infallible.

      Australian and UK polys sneered at our Lock Down saying "Ardern is doing the wrong thing" They opened up and let the variants rip. They are in trouble now.

      What happens when " National's individuality" is your mantra? "Your Party will be riven by factions strife and Leadership battles while teamwork diminishes"

      What happens when the Pandemic changes all people knew? "A sense of fear anger and a growing discontent with "Health Orders." the Government and life in general leading to white anting, a sense of “may as well have Christmas”.

      The advent of omnicrom is a timely reminder that Pandemic threats are "On our doorstep" . So called freedoms will have a cost. Currently one person dying daily,
      It is the lawless and the so called freedom seekers who will undermine this Government, because the years that this will go on will sap strength and will, and sadly frightened people look for someone to blame, and a new hero. In rides Luxon on Key's White horse?

      Instead of biting at the Government, we as a community should look for ways to support, for no Government has had such a situation to face since World War Two. This support should come from the Opposition as well. Self interest will be our problem.
      Just a few of my observations.

      • Ad 6.3.1

        This government clearly has the power to organise society with more force and precision than we've had in many decades, right down to losing your job and excluding you from shopping.

        Government is literally in the gun for this.

        "We as a community" have no place getting into gang confrontations, re-housing criminals, or dealing with utterly abhorrent sustained attacks from neighbours.

        This is what we pay government for.

        • Patricia Bremner 6.3.1.1

          Support does not mean confront. Some of the inequities showing up, are neglect. Some are bloody minded gang wars. Sydney and Melbourne had these some time back. Perhaps we need to look at how they dealt with them.

      • Patricia Bremner 6.3.2

        SorryblushOmicron… dag nabbit and blast!!

        • SPC 6.3.2.1

          omnisexual

          /ˈɒmnɪsɛkʃʊəl/

          adjective

          1. involving, related to, or characterized by a diverse sexual propensity.

          The new variant does have a lot of mutations on the spike protein. A little bit alpha, a little bit beta and a little bit delta – omni.

  7. Reality 7

    Well PR, re National's debacles with iffy candidate selections, Michelle Boag's leaking personal information, Merv's weird radio calls, Judith's prayers, staged walkabouts, insults and friendship with Whaleoil, homeless men, Simon's crudeness, Todd's meltdown, Goldsmith's inability to use a calculator – just curious if you think those qualities qualify as competence.

    • Puckish Rogue 7.1

      National haven't been competent (and the largest party) since Bill English was in charge

      • Gezza 7.1.1

        Tru dat.

      • Jimmy 7.1.2

        Yes that's for sure.

      • Blazer 7.1.3

        Yes the 'double dipper from Dipton' and his obsfucation over Barclay represents as good as it gets as far as the Natz go.

        • Gezza 7.1.3.1

          How would you get on if you couldn't call the pollies you hate nasty or disparaging nicknames, eh, B?

          Would ya even be interested in commenting, I wonder?

          • Stuart Munro 7.1.3.1.1

            He may be a competent accountant, but his economic settings were shite.

            The only NZ economics minister who could be called competent in my lifetime was Cullen, and he did not resolve the structural failings build in by Douglas and Richardson.

            Better that NZ politicians don't talk about economics – they don't have a ghost of a clue what they're doing – hence they haven't made 3% growth excluding migration & inflation in basically forever.

            • Gezza 7.1.3.1.1.1

              So, how do you rate Robertson’s economic settings, then:

              1. before Covid?
              2. since Covid?
              • Stuart Munro

                Before Covid? He was a place holder.

                Since Covid – well he broke the foolish ban on QE (not that it's wonderful, but when the whole world is doing it you'd better too). He's learned a thing or two, but still isn't solid enough to rebuke Treasury for ideological belching.

                A good finance minister? Not especially – no steps to reform productivity killers and dead weight costs like real estate inflation, unskilled migration, and monopsonies. But predictable – banks like that.

          • Blazer 7.1.3.1.2

            I'd get on fine thanks.

            How would you get on commenting if Twyford hadn't got a portfolio?

            • Gezza 7.1.3.1.2.1

              I was expecting your traditional counterpunch so I dodged it.

              But on that whataboutism you always so favour when trying to hit back – are you saying Twyford was a GOOD housing minister, & that he knew enuf about his portfolio?

              I don’t think I continually call him nasty nicknames – that’s puerile schoolboy stuff; most adults outgrow that behaviour smartly when they leave school.

              • Blazer

                'An evangelical (Bible Bashing) Xtian '-I could say…'physician…heal thyself'.

                As for Twyford I think he was given the hardest task ever,and his frenzied, condemnation did not really reflect his abilities.

                As for ' that’s puerile schoolboy stuff; most adults outgrow that behaviour smartly when they leave school.'

                There are numerous M.P's and thousands of political commentators that clearly ,have not grown out of it…smartly ..at all.

                • Gezza

                  They’re not usually noted for their wit or humour, more for their sarcasm & acidity. And more than a few clearly haven’t matured yet & are petulant or still childishly motivated.

                  • Blazer

                    and where do we file this-''An evangelical (Bible Bashing) Xtianangel

                    [RL: Chill. I’m not a fan of the ‘Xtian’ contraction either, but time for both of you to let this go before it escalates.]

                    • RedLogix

                      Mod note

                    • Gezza

                      Two points, to illustrate the failure of your attempted false equivalence, B. Then I’m leaving the matter here.

                      1. That bible bashing reference is a shorthand descriptor of the type of Christianity traditionally associated with evangelicals. They typically adhere more closely to, & quote more of, the Bible than other more mainstream Christian denominations. It is NOT a disparaging nickname of Luxon.
                      2. You won’t see me repeating that, ad nauseum, AS a disparaging nickname, nor will you see me continually using ANY insulting or disparaging nickname for any pollie I typically don’t like or think much of.

                      That is all. Over & out. 💂🏻

                  • SPC

                    The late Sir Michael Cullen was blessed with a sharp intellect and quick wit overlaid with his occasional trademark sarcasm.

                    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/mood-of-the-boardroom-tribute-michael-cullen-knzm-1945-2021/I2BGCGWFR252BCB3EFRG5QDMTU/

                    • Gezza

                      I have loathed sarcastic bastards ever since Cabbage, our Latin teacher at school, habitually used sarcasm as a means of belittling pupils who found Latin hard to learn.

                      His particular favourite victim was a poor little pasty-faced, friendless, white-skinned fat kid. The pyschopathic bullies our day+boarding school had a number of took those sarcastic barbs as giving them the ok to insult & physically assault that poor bloody kid every day at school, until his miserable short life was ended by leukaemia.

                      To this day I wish ill upon all sarcastic pricks.

                    • SPC

                      The general rule is not to punch down, which can lead to piling in on a victim.

                      What you identify is a (hopefully) past practice to manage the herd towards appeasing the one in control (here fear cabbage and learn Latin properly or also be a victim) – it was used on the parade ground, a recruit exampled to identify power and then moving onto group punishment till the group managed the singled out recruit).

                    • RedLogix

                      @ Gezza

                      habitually used sarcasm as a means of belittling pupils who found Latin hard to learn.

                      Take some comfort – he probably had to go home to a psychopathic wife who thrashed him to within an inch of his life. wink

                    • Gezza

                      @RL

                      Cabbage & I at least agreed on one thing. An intense mutual loathing for each other. I dropped Latin for History as I could & just stuck with French.

                      What a pity te reo Māori wasn’t an option back in the early 70’s. I’d go for it like a robber’s dog these days. 😎

                    • Gezza

                      🙄 * as SOON as I could

                    • SPC

                      There was a Maori (culture) or French (language) option at my intermediate (era of the *****e golden disc and yellow jerseys) – chose the former and perfected the Gallic shrug.

                      Rumour has it.

                      Teacher was a fan of yellow submarines.

                    • Gezza

                      @ SPC

                      I remember that song well.

                      Teacher was a fan of yellow submarines.

                      Guessing you mean the Cousteaus? But speaking of the other well-known yellow submarine, this song of the fab four always reminded me of Cabbage:

                    • SPC

                      No he just played the Beatles song of the name (we played rugby wearing yellow jerseys – a bit of a tour of France pun). And asked us to bring along our music – I brought along the Luxene golden disc album (the one from the year before) to listen to (subtle Luxon and Hebrew to hear “Simon” pun – the puns get worse if you know what songs were on the record).

                      50 years ago … I made the decision to spend the last day (a good day) of school at a swimming pool (missed out on getting the school’s gold colours apparently).

    • Gezza 7.2

      .
      😂 👌🏼

    • Patricia Bremner 7.3

      devilSuccinct list Reality. yes

  8. Adrian 8

    Just exactly how much shit has Collins, via Whaleoil, got on everybody in that caucus?

    • tc 8.1

      A treasure map of skeletons from the brash, key era combined with the means and intent to use them.

      Hagers book is 7 years ago now and nothing happened so why would she mess with the classic tried and tested.

  9. Foreign Waka 9

    The mind boggles if actual valuable advise comes along and the housing ministers response is akin to "I know best" or is this "don't make me work".

    None of these ministers seem to have any idea how business works, let alone what short cuts, avoidance etc. is being used. Commercially completely inept.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/housing-affordability/300409744/mega-landlord-describes-rot-in-a-housing-market-that-advantages-investors

  10. Tricledrown 10

    Laws are made by lawyers so lawyers can profit.

  11. Ed1 11

    Vaccine Passes

    Do we know what information is held in the picture in the vaccine pass? Some are claiming that if just getting a copy from a friend of similar age is insufficient the name and dates can be easily edited. If a scan is used would editing be able to be detected (and the person who it was issued to asked to explain how someone else was able to use / edit it? Is potential fraud a significant issue?

    • McFlock 11.1

      Fraud will definitely be attempted.

      Had a play with it at a theatre recently. Code came up in the app with "valid", date of birth, expiry date and I think name? Can't quite remember.

      Basically, if you could edit the code and the app is able to be used without an internet connection ("if"), the QR code will have at least the above info on it. So theoretically, if one knew their encoding method you could change it to your name and date of birth and still come up with a pass that gets through the offline validation.

      BUT

      what I would do with the app, as a basic, is have it popping back to the central registry as an audit tool. Then if there are irregularities (code ID but the name doesn't match the registry) I'd push a flag out to all appholders that the particular code being used is bunk. And there are other auditing techniques that come to mind, too.

      The real weakness is someone just using a working code that belongs to someone else – how many people are going to request another form of ID for a haircut? But then if that working code gets used by too many people across the country (I.E. nutbar puts it on facebook), that should raise a flag.

      • Nic the NZer 11.1.1

        The offline version should be able to check that the signature in the QR code is not forged and the signed info in the code was what was signed.

        All it needs to do that is the MoH public key used to sign the certificate (built into the app).

        Someone with the MoH private key would be able to forge these, but that should be carefully guarded.

        • Ed1 11.1.1.1

          Thanks McFlock and Nic. I envisaged people checking in with their pass as we are used to for getting on a plane – and hoped that if two people using copied of the same pass may be able to be picked up with police then arriving to check people out – or something similar if details had been changed. That does still leave just using someone else's pass in a situation where the person looks about the same age as the correct person. Perhaps a few well publicised cases would be helpful . . .

      • The Al1en 11.1.2

        I don't think anyone will try to knockoff passes. They'll already know every time a fake was detected at New World or Countdown, the government would just use the 5g towers to activate the chips in our arms to make citizen's arrests.

    • Nic the NZer 11.2

      The info in the QR code is basically also all printed on the PDF in plain text. If that matches and the app verifies it then you can basically be certain the MoH produced (and digitally signed) that PDF document.

      • weka 11.2.1

        I still don't get it.

        MoH emails me a PDF. Can I just print that out and use that?

        Someone in a cafe scans that if I want entry. Does it match to a MoH database?

        • joe90 11.2.1.1

          I think the cafe scan authenticates the pass, not the details within.

        • bwaghorn 11.2.1.2

          Just got mine but how I use it I dont know, it's a pdf my phone will hide it somewhere I cant find easily.

        • McFlock 11.2.1.3

          Yes, you can use a printout of the pdf.

          TL:DR for below, no it doesn't check each scan with a central database, because you don't need to be internet-connected to use it.

          Based on the app website for app operators, they have this:

          Scanning passes with no internet

          Internet is needed for the initial app download and the first scan, but after that, the NZ Pass Verifier app can scan My Vaccine Pass without an internet connection but should be connected to the internet on a regular basis to ensure it can verify all valid My Vaccine Passes.

          Going on an even deeper dive, the app spec is available with a description.

          Basically, the QR code isn't just a number that the app looks up, it's a little message encrypted in the code. This message has a bunch of fields that the app can decode, and will be the same as what's printed on the PDF. So if your paper says "Weka" but the (valid) code says it belongs to "McFlock", that would be a flag that the venue operator should look into and report.

          But also there are a variety of tweaks within the code to confirm that the QR code hasn't been edited. So if I managed to hack your code and change the name to "McFlock", that would create an inconsistency within the code itself and result in a fail.

          • Foreign waka 11.2.1.3.1

            I have to use a hard copy as I work off a shared email address. The system is not really well thought through. 1/ you need a phone with a google account 2/ you need an email address that is unique to you. Only then will any of it work to down load. Mind you, you can take a picture of the code but not ideal.

            Why cant we get a pass like a driver license. Also the format would be handy.

            • McFlock 11.2.1.3.1.1

              I think my mum got hers at the local vaccination centre. They really do seem to be trying to make it as easy as possible, even for people who don't do tech.

              At least someone learned something after census 2018, anyway lol.

        • Nic the NZer 11.2.1.4

          Its as McFlock said. A digital signature is part of the verification of the QR code itself. A digital signature is a bit of math which acts like a signature, meaning the MoH has a secret number which they use to sign the code and the app has a related public number used to verify the QR code. Guessing the private number requires significant (months of) effort so if one verifies its likely the MoH made it.

          Somebody still needs to check its a pass for the person being verified however.

        • Pingao 11.2.1.5

          Have both the pass on your phone and a hard copy for backup. You can print out a colour copy ( or a couple), cut it out and fold it in half so it is card sized and get it laminated at warehouse stationery or maybe your local library.

          There are 2 links in the email – one for iPhone and Google Pay for Android. You don't need to download the Google Pay app first. Just tap whichever mobile you have and click through the approvals and it will load on your mobile ( although mine hasn't loaded properly for some reason that escapes me)

  12. RedLogix 12

    Competence. (Headphones required)

  13. Jimmy 13

    Big announcement at 4pm today is really a non event for me as I live in Auckland and we have already been told we are going to start on red light December 3rd. And to be honest I don't actually remember what a difference orange light makes as we are now all back to visiting friends, kids sleep overs, BBQ's at neighbors etc, etc.

    I guess we will be able to go to a restaurant once they open (or a gym). Just had my haircut so that was nice.

  14. Gezza 14

    Just checking whether my Dailymotion videos also display and play here, like my Vimeo ones do…

  15. Gezza 15

    "Dailymotion no longer supports your internet browser."

    Drat. the ol' iPad2 is running out of Sites that will play its most up to date version of Safari!

    • Patricia Bremner 15.1

      Hi Gezza, may help? we have Lenovo (notebooks?). They are not expensive, are sturdy and reliable. $400 to 500. Cheers.

      • Gezza 15.1.1

        I have a Lenovo laptop, Patricia. I found & posted the video using that. I just forgot that my trusty old iPad2 (that I use most the time for posting here) has an iOS so out of date the latest Safari – or other browsers – it can run aren't supported by a growing of current-day sites, including The Herald.

        I'll have to get a more up to date iPad.

  16. Puckish Rogue 16

    How did this end up in my youtube recommendations? (Surprisingly catchy though)

  17. rod 17

    It's beginning to look like Bishop Luxon. wink

    • Gezza 17.1

      He’s not a Bishop. Fail. For making shit up.

      Raised a Catholic, now an evangelical Xtian.

      In November 2019 Luxon said he was against capital punishment, abortion, euthanasia, and legalising recreational cannabis. At the same time he supported medicinal cannabis and a very popular stance with a “no jab, no pay” policy for sanctioning welfare beneficiaries who do not vaccinate their children.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Luxon

      Oh yeah, right. Cutting beneficiaries’ pay as a sanction ends up hurting the kids more than the adults, some of those working in these fields were telling us on 1Ewes at 6 last week.

      On those few issues alone he should have the electoral appeal of an electric fence to anybody outside of the rather small, hard-ass “bash-the-bennies” circle.

      • Ad 17.1.1

        So what happened to all that Bill English coercive social capital policy then?

        Call it "bash the bennies" and with some relief in common-indignation-disguising-policy-cowardice the bourgeoisie scurry back inside to homes they own and their organic smoothies and their Twitter feeds.

        • Gezza 17.1.1.1

          Eh?

          What “Bill English coercive social capital policy”?

          Please explain as I have no idea what you’re talking about, or why you think it was Bill English’s policy. He wasn’t Social Development Minister, or was he, & I’ve forgotten?

          As to what happened to it, it appears at least some aspects of it are now current Labour Policy under lightweight & well-out-of-her-depth MSD Minister, Carmel Sepuloni.

          The rest of your comment is so dripping with class-conscious sarcasm it doesn’t merit a response.

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