Open mike 30/03/2023

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1. Ad 1

   30 March 2023 at 8:16 am

   Hipkins is announcing the new Auckland harbour crossing this afternoon. There's been over 7 years worth of modelling and testing for it to be a tunnel.

   The problem for this government is that it is now beset by long term announcements – either in infrastructure or in governance and systems – that either don't arrive or have negligible palpable difference to any citizen. Announcements just don't have political effect.

   Great that he's trying to bring some momentum back from an utter political disaster week. But as an election year political tactic it isn't going to work.
   • Sanctuary 1.1

     30 March 2023 at 8:29 am

     I agree. If they really want to win, they need to do something dramatic and immediate, like making the first 10-15k of income tax free.
   • bwaghorn 1.2

     30 March 2023 at 8:30 am

     ""But as an election year political tactic it isn't going to work.

     Yeah it's shit imagine a politician doing things for the long term good instead of pandering to the moron swing voters
     • Ad 1.2.1

       30 March 2023 at 10:05 am

       Under Ardern we had 5 years of managerial bullshit and crisis cash redistribution. As a result of this 'long term good' does anyone here feel any improvement in the health system, road and rail transport system, education system, poverty alleviation system, public housing system, immigration system, justice system, or any other part of New Zealand public services?

       No we don't.

       This is what you get with really bad policy delivery over 2 terms, and it is Hipkins' core political headwind.
       • bwaghorn 1.2.1.1

         30 March 2023 at 1:16 pm

         Sounds like it was an announcement abouta possible plan maybe, 5 possible options ,hardly spades in the ground
         • Ad 1.2.1.1.1

           30 March 2023 at 1:41 pm

           It announced that they have gone backwards by multiple years.

           And any option will cost between $15-$25 billion in 2023 dollars.
           • bwaghorn 1.2.1.1.1.1

             30 March 2023 at 1:50 pm

             I had hoped Hopkins was a roll ya sleeves up crack heads and make shit happen guy, not looking that way.

             Labours very lucky the nats and act arnt worthy of my vote
       • roblogic 1.2.1.2

         30 March 2023 at 4:24 pm

         Labour under Ardern rebuilt hospitals, made huge inroads into the housing crisis, and put a ton of work into water reform. They also stated plans for fixing rail infra and set the goal of "Road to Zero" for the NZTA

         It sucks that those plans were derailed by an apocalyptic pandemic that's still claiming more lives than the road toll and wrecking the health system. The media is bored with that story though.

         https://twitter.com/SoonLeeNZ/status/1612301909230227456?s=20
         • bwaghorn 1.2.1.2.1

           30 March 2023 at 5:13 pm

           Maintenance on hospitals is a basic government job,

           When's rail starting to the airport, ?

           Recession is the only thing that's stopped the runaway housing train,

           Yes covid was a fucker but you can't ride that pony for ever, I'd bet there's a few illnesses that kill more than cars
           • SPC 1.2.1.2.1.1

             30 March 2023 at 5:19 pm

             Orr created the 2021 bubble and the 2022 correction began before the OCR rise reaction to inflation, which will be confimed as leading to recession (official once the March quarter figures are released).
             • pat …

               30 March 2023 at 5:35 pm

               Orr created the conditions that enabled the (extension of) the bubble….there is a subtle difference, one that allows the RBNZ to disclaim responsibility to a degree.
               • SPC …

                 30 March 2023 at 5:40 pm

                 Yes, but could have installed tighter lending conditions for investors once it was clear that the pandemic monetary policy and government wage subsidy had secured the economy (rather than let them speculate by buying up existing property assets).
                 • pat …

                   30 March 2023 at 6:02 pm

                   Yes they could (should) have…but the increased borrowing (credit creation) was determined by the banks and individuals…in many cases to their detriment.

                   They can claim they wernt responsible for banks lending (risk) criteria.

                   Greed (or easy money) makes for poor decision making
         • Ad 1.2.1.2.2

           30 March 2023 at 8:39 pm

           NZTA network is worse.

           Rail network regional and national is worse.

           Ferry network regional and national is worse.

           Road toll has got worse.

           None of the water reforms have landed other than set up a regulator.

           No part of our health system has improved.
   • Bearded Git 1.3

     30 March 2023 at 10:30 am

     "utter political disaster week"

     Come come

     One aging useless right wing minister got rid of. I have never forgotten Nash attacking the two billion dollar backpacker industry…stuck up idiot stuck in the past.
     • Roy Cartland 1.3.1

       30 March 2023 at 12:05 pm

       He was in the wrong party. Always felt that about him. Can't wait to see him defect, good riddance.
   • Bearded Git 1.4

     30 March 2023 at 10:38 am

     Just released minutes ago.

     It's actually easy. The cheapest option, according to the release, is a light rail/biking/walking bridge parallel to the existing bridge.

     Just do it.
     • Ad 1.4.1

       30 March 2023 at 11:08 am

       Minister Wood is not walking back that massive 2022 PR disaster even again.

       It is dead.
     • James Simpson 1.4.2

       30 March 2023 at 12:59 pm

       Been there – it was rejected.
   • RedLogix 1.5

     30 March 2023 at 12:30 pm

     Good. I wish the engineering teams who have put so much into this the best with it.

     The network of tunnels commonplace in the big Australian cities work remarkably well; this tunnel should be a wonderful asset.
     • Ad 1.5.1

       30 March 2023 at 12:37 pm

       Yes this would be a decade of work worth putting ones' shoulder to.

       Seriously needs a tunnel congestion charge just like Sydney does for all of its tunnels.

       The extensive spread of Auckland Warkworth to Pokeno is 110 kilometers and is accelerating with more development, requiring more people living on the periphery and travelling longer and longer across the isthmus.

       No, there will never be a public transport alternative to most of this.
   • pat 1.6

     30 March 2023 at 5:12 pm

     Desperate and dumb….it will probably have the desired effect to a degree.
2. James Thrace 2

   30 March 2023 at 8:29 am

   Feels like the last few days on twitter has been full of performative heteros telling the “other” queers who voice dissenting views as to the abhorrent way that the TRAs acted on 25 March. Its notable that the performative heteros tend to say how they expect the “rainbow” community to be, and can’t engage in debate except to say there is no debate. When (typically the performative straight male “allies”) are asked if they would sleep with a self identified woman with a penis, they tend to prevaricate saying it isn’t about them, or they block. Seems to me a lot of straight people are just performative fuckwits demanding acceptance & unable to listen to those with concerns.
   • Robert Guyton 2.1

     30 March 2023 at 9:07 am

     I've been doing some background reading, as instructed by some here, and found this very good: https://overland.org.au/2019/05/what-is-gender-critical-anyway-on-essentialism-and-transphobia/
     • Molly 2.1.1

       30 March 2023 at 9:25 am

       If you are referring to me Robert – and apologies if you are not – it was reading comprehension that you appeared to be having trouble with.

       No point in going for quantity if the quality of comprehension is still poor.

       After making it past the opening sentence, "Transphobes are having a moment in Aotearoa" it seemed to get progressively worse.

       TBH the reasoning is best expressed by this:

       It may be a good time, then, to examine what being ‘gender critical’ actually means.

       At first blush, the phrase ‘gender critical feminist’ is essentially meaningless: all feminism is ‘gender critical’ by definition. The TERF label is at least partially descriptive, since exponents of this ideology are certainly trans-exclusionary, but it may be too generous to suggest that they are either radical or feminists. Feminism is a big tent, but it is hard to welcome into it a group so dedicated to returning us to the values of the Victorians.

       At this point I realised I'd read this before and decided not to waste more of my life continuing.

       I will say that the closing paragraph does not express the concerns of many who are called TERFs at all:

       "TERFs ultimately tie rights to body parts. Their approach seems to be that, because women were originally oppressed to some extent because of their bodies, their rights should be forever tied to qualities within those bodies, when in fact the precise opposite is true. Their reactionary ideology, with its obsession with binary gender essentialism, is actively harmful to all genders. TERFs aren’t even calling back to the second wave – they’re calling back to the first wave. Their ideas are over one hundred years old, and they aren’t good ones."
       • Robert Guyton 2.1.1.1

         30 March 2023 at 9:33 am

         I accept your apology, Molly.

         Still curious as to the personal attacks you're indulging in. Not sure why you believe I'm a poor reader and have comprehension problems or why you feel you should broadcast your opinion about that.
         • Molly 2.1.1.1.1

           30 March 2023 at 9:47 am

           Basically, because it doesn't appear that you read comments before responding.

           For example, you've posted a link and I have commented on that link, and your response is limited to your acceptance of my apology and a query about how I see your contributions.

           The article you posted, is written by someone who assumes they know what concerns many women hold. If they had had the opportunity to listen to some of the NZ women speak on the weekend, they may have realised that their assumptions were wrong. But that opportunity for clarity didn't happen.

           Your responses, often show another version of this lack of listening and comprehension. No matter what people write you either ignore it, redirect, or take a really strange interpretation of it to run with.

           It's a form of silencing, in that words exchanged with you are lost somewhere in between the writing and the reading.
           • Robert Guyton 2.1.1.1.1.1

             30 March 2023 at 9:57 am

             What a curious comment, Molly.

             You indicated that reading the material I had linked-to was a waste of your life.

             I'm not sure why you'd want to waste any more of it engaging in discussion about it.

             Perhaps, if you'd like an answer from me about any particular matter, you could ask a question, rather than cast a vague net of words. That would make it easier to know where your interest lies.
             • Molly …

               30 March 2023 at 10:09 am

               "Still curious as to the personal attacks you're indulging in. Not sure why you believe I'm a poor reader and have comprehension problems or why you feel you should broadcast your opinion about that."

               Don't put forth a query if you don't want an answer.

               "Perhaps, if you'd like an answer from me about any particular matter, you could ask a question, rather than cast a vague net of words. That would make it easier to know where your interest lies."

               Experience has shown this makes little difference.
               • Robert Guyton …

                 30 March 2023 at 10:29 am

                 Give it one more go, go on! 🙂
               • Robert Guyton …

                 30 March 2023 at 11:51 am

                 Molly, are you trans-exclusionary?
                 • Molly …

                   30 March 2023 at 11:59 am

                   In what way?
                 • Shanreagh …

                   30 March 2023 at 5:06 pm

                   What does that even mean Robert?

                   You haven't defined it?

                   Then all you need to ask

                   Are you are Radical

                   then

                   Are you a Female

                   And voila you've made up the initials of Terf.

                   What about:

                   GCF

                   I'm one.

                   I don't believe in gender woo woo though if someone wants to describe themselves as a cat or a cabbage or a 'lesbian transwoman' then I'll laugh or go OMG or say 'contradiction in terms' along with the rest.

                   Lesbians are women who love other women.

                   I believe in the male sex and the female sex. Of course there are Intersex but the small in proportion to the huge numbers of babies born.

                   Woman: an adult female human being

                   Man: an adult male human being.
                   • Shanreagh …

                     30 March 2023 at 8:13 pm

                     I don't believe in gender woo woo though if someone wants to describe themselves as a cat or a cabbage or a 'lesbian transwoman' then I'll laugh or go OMG or say 'contradiction in terms' along with the rest.

                     Or be my usual respectful self even though some of the ideas are wacky.

                     Until they come for my rights or the rights of the females/female children in my family.
       • Tabletennis 2.1.1.2

         30 March 2023 at 4:39 pm

         To Robert Guyton – from your linked article:

         Gender essentialism is the idea that there is an innate, immutable ‘womanness’ or ‘manness’ which expresses itself in what we consider ‘femininity’ or ‘masculinity’.

         If you now add TRANS – in front gender essentialism than the article makes sense. Otherwise the article is: just throw it in the bin.

         The Paradox Institute, science based educational videos, could help to bring you up to speed with this kind of falsehood. Because there is more than one way to be a women or to be a man.
         https://www.theparadoxinstitute.com/watch/is-sex-bimodal
         • Robert Guyton 2.1.1.2.1

           30 March 2023 at 4:42 pm

           Thanks, tt.
     • weka 2.1.2

       30 March 2023 at 10:32 am

       Dimsie is an anti-terfer. I'm curious what you learned from reading that.
       • Robert Guyton 2.1.2.1

         30 March 2023 at 11:45 am

         I guess Tova's persona non grata here on TS now.

         https://www.todayfm.co.nz/home/opinion/2023/03/tova-i-was-at-the-counterprotest-as-a-woman-who-is-pro-all-women-including-trans-women.html
         • Molly 2.1.2.1.1

           30 March 2023 at 11:58 am

           Read it.

           Full of assumptions and inaccuracies, peppered with assertions.

           eg: "The rights of people to be themselves, love who they love and not be targeted by misguided, hate-fueled anger and abuse"

           "I was there for a shared kaupapa that says no to stirring up fear and hysteria designed to marginalise a group of people."

           "And like Posie Parker doesn’t publicly defend the neo nazis who always rock up to support her rallies. "

           ecetera…

           I think it is a piece written by someone uninformed of the concerns women hold, that she was given the opportunity to hear by being present at a #LetWomenSpeak event.

           Yet she doesn't recognise her part in supporting a #DoNotLetWomenSpeak kaupapa.
           • Robert Guyton 2.1.2.1.1.1

             30 March 2023 at 12:03 pm

             "The rights of people to be themselves, love who they love and not be targeted by misguided, hate-fueled anger and abuse"

             Applies to all, I reckon.

             "I was there for a shared kaupapa that says no to stirring up fear and hysteria designed to marginalise a group of people."

             Ditto.

             "And like Posie Parker doesn’t publicly defend the neo nazis who always rock up to support her rallies. "

             Does she publicly defend the neo nazis? Do they always turn up (I don't know).

             Interpreting those statements depends on one's point of view, doesn't it. No wonder the matter is confused!
             • Molly …

               30 March 2023 at 12:06 pm

               "Interpreting those statements depends on one's point of view, doesn't it. No wonder the matter is confused!"

               Actually interpreting these statements depends on ones level of knowledge to quite a significant degree. The fallacies are easier to spot for those who know more.

               Have you read LawfulN's link yet?
         • Liberty Belle 2.1.2.1.2

           30 March 2023 at 12:25 pm

           Oh the irony of this comment (from Tova):

           "The rights of people to be themselves, love who they love and not be targeted by misguided, hate-fueled anger and abuse. " (my bold).
           • Molly 2.1.2.1.2.1

             30 March 2023 at 12:31 pm

             There's a few such pearlers from Tova.

             (As I read them I looked down to see if I was fading out of existence – but No – I made it to the end, fully intact. )
             • Liberty Belle …

               30 March 2023 at 12:34 pm

               
             • Robert Guyton …

               30 March 2023 at 4:43 pm

               Indeed, the irony is thick (both ways) 🙂
               • Shanreagh …

                 30 March 2023 at 5:08 pm

                 Really, I'd like you to explain what your sentence (just a little) please rather than casting words into space.
                 • Robert Guyton …

                   30 March 2023 at 6:02 pm

                   "The rights of people to be themselves, love who they love and not be targeted by misguided, hate-fueled anger and abuse."

                   Some people appear to fervently believe that Posie threatens the rights of people to be themselves, love who they love and not be targeted by misguided, hate-fueled anger and abuse.

                   Do you see what I mean?
                   • Shanreagh …

                     30 March 2023 at 8:08 pm

                     No.

                     You'll have to explain who these people are

                     and not be targeted by misguided, hate-fueled anger and abuse."

                     If you answer Terfs or women you, and they, are wrong.

                     This has been a whole lot of what I call bullkaka or woo. You ask to find out, for people to give examples and no-one can tell you, Their propagandists have told them.

                     If you are lucky they might tell you that their mother's aunty's friend's cousin's partner heard someone say something derogatory in the pub but as they were a bit under the weather they may have misunderstood.

                     Where does this leave actual women?
         • weka 2.1.2.1.3

           30 March 2023 at 12:43 pm

           Tova O'Brien is a journalist. What's your point Robert? Because it looks like you wanted to post an anti-terf opinion piece and then when I pointed out that she is anti-terf, you bring in TO so say what exactly? Here is another woman how has a belief about something?

           Dimsie uses anti-terf rhetoric. I'll just keep pointing out the context of the links you are posting. Any time you want to step out of the culture war and engage meaningfully, let me know.

           https://terfisaslur.com/

           https://twitter.com/coccinellanovem/status/1637202317329027075
           • Robert Guyton 2.1.2.1.3.1

             30 March 2023 at 4:45 pm

             Tova is pro-trans-rights, I suppose. The images/messages you posted, weka, do you mean them to shock? It seems you've picked extremely violent examples in order to shock. It seems unusual for you to do that.
             • weka …

               30 March 2023 at 5:12 pm

               weka: Dimsie is an anti-terfer. I'm curious what you learned from reading that.

               RG: I guess Tova's persona non grata here on TS now [+link to new article, without any explanation]

               My impression is that you too are an anti-terfer. So I posted, again, what that means.

               Yes, the image is shocking. Imagine talking about women's rights and being subjected to that continually.
               • Robert Guyton …

                 30 March 2023 at 6:04 pm

                 I don't know who "Dimsie" is, weka.
                 • weka …

                   30 March 2023 at 6:46 pm

                   Dimsie is the author of the article in your link where you said,

                   I've been doing some background reading, as instructed by some here, and found this very good: https://overland.org.au/2019/05/what-is-gender-critical-anyway-on-essentialism-and-transphobia/

                   It's in her bio on that page.
               • Robert Guyton …

                 30 March 2023 at 6:40 pm

                 weka – does it come down to this: many people fervently believe that Posie was promoting ideas that caused many in the trans community to fear for their well-being?
                 • weka …

                   30 March 2023 at 6:49 pm

                   only if you want to render invisible thousands of women who've been working on women's sexed based rights for nearly a decade. And ignore the serious levels of abuse that have been aimed at women in that time. And if you want to support No Debate. And if you want to ignore child safeguarding and the fact that many countries, including now NZ's own MoH are starting to review transitioning on of children thanks to the efforts of GCFs and other GC people.

                   Otherwise, no.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     30 March 2023 at 6:59 pm

                     Many people (don't) fervently believe that Posie was promoting ideas that caused many in the trans community to fear for their well-being?
                   • weka []

                     30 March 2023 at 7:11 pm

                     why are you commenting as if women and their rights aren’t central in this?
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     30 March 2023 at 7:23 pm

                     Freedom of speech isn't the central issue?
                   • weka []

                     30 March 2023 at 7:55 pm

                     You’d have to say what you mean by freedom of speech for me to answer that.
                 • Shanreagh …

                   30 March 2023 at 8:01 pm

                   Well they are wrong.

                   They are products of their own propaganda and the consequences of No Debate.

                   Many women support Trans rights as they can relate as having been through oppression as women.

                   What we draw the line at is the loss of our own identities as women and all the women's issues that are our now but won't be soon

                   eg

                   sex based rights including access to safe spaces

                   safeguarding of children's identities so they can grow up as children to adults without being part of adult cult dogma

                   and many others that you will know of if you have done unbiased reading.
             • Shanreagh …

               30 March 2023 at 8:29 pm

               Not picked to exaggerate Robert. You saw the posters on 25/3. C**t, suck my girl dick etc. They reached a crescendo ove rthe weekend after a week of building up. people like katherine stock and others from the UK have been harassed, even to the point of having to go to safe houses, withdraw from public life for periods.

               I have muted many of them & v blocked others as my desire to learn did not go that far.

               I had someone tried to hack my twitter handle to include 'is a nazi' in it.

               Even on the few relatively mild trans supporters I am following women are universally regarded at Nazis.

               It is hard to maintain a level of good will in their cause, when the purpose in life of some is to violently attack women with words, and with just plain violence as they did to the 70 year in Auckland with a fractured skull.

               I am pretty sure that woman's rights to safe spaces without intact males will be able to be met somehow if people can find level headed people to talk to.

               I am finding gt support ie realism from the LGB lobby particularly a Gay lobby group in the UK

               Trans lobby has been very intolerant of Lesbians. We have a knowledgeable poster here, Visubversa, who knows how extreme the ant Lesbian actions and words have been. Read her posts.
               • Molly …

                 30 March 2023 at 9:26 pm

                 "I had someone tried to hack my twitter handle to include 'is a nazi' in it."

                 What the hell, Shanreagh… I've always found your posts to be respectful even if you disagree.

                 Hope your account is protected now.
         • Stuart Munro 2.1.2.1.4

           30 March 2023 at 3:08 pm

           She was persona non-grata after a few weeks vitriol on Covid updates.
       • Shanreagh 2.1.2.2

         30 March 2023 at 12:37 pm

         I used to follow her unitl I realsied that she did not support womens' rights or issues.

         I've just read that the elderly woman who was bashed at the let womne speak event has a fractured skull

         ManaWāhineKōrero12:51 AM · Mar 30, 2023

         'It has been revealed that the 70yr old woman who was brutally assaulted in Auckland on Sat, has a fractured skull. She is safe and being cared for by loved ones & wishes to remain anonymous. In the aftermath of the state sanctioned violence unleashed upon NZ women wishing to exercise our right to peacefully assemble & speak, we are helping women who attended with counselling services if they so wish.'
         • Shanreagh 2.1.2.2.1

           30 March 2023 at 1:51 pm

           Perhaps this will be enough for PM to jump off his 'on the one hand this on the other hand that' stance that the violence on 25/3 could be shared. I doubt he will though he seems blinkered.

           It would have been easy to condemn the violence as did a UK minister in terms of what actually happened.

           Ah me……….we've joined them in a world of madness not of our own making.

           Off to

           1) write complaint to IPCA, as suggested by SUFW about NZ Police not being guided or learning from the poor policing at the Hobart event, SUFW got back to me this morning

           2) Donating to the fund for counselling for women who attended waiting to speak or listen on 25/3 who were terrified/hurt by the violence shown against them.

           #Let women speak

           #Stand up for women

           #The whole world is watching
     • LawfulN 2.1.3

       30 March 2023 at 11:28 am

       If you read that kind of stuff, don't expect to learn anything useful. The author makes a fundamental mistake about a minute into the article. You'd be better off reading something written by an expert who understands the underlying issues rather than a journalist who is looking to score points.

       I thought this was useful when I read it, but there are likely other articles that are just as good.

       https://medium.com/@mary.leng/where-metaphysics-meets-politics-in-gender-critical-feminism-1fe565e2093a
       • Molly 2.1.3.1

         30 March 2023 at 11:46 am

         Thank you, have bookmarked that.

         From the closing paragraph:

         What I would like to say is that, so long as we recognise both sex and gender identity as separate politically important features, and keep language that allows us to discuss these features separately, then it strikes me that the ‘spaces’ issue should not and does not admit of a one size fits all answer. In each case we need to ask the question why this service/space/provision has been designated as woman only? And we need to ask on a case by case basis whether, given this justification, interpreting ‘woman’ as ‘female’ or as ‘female-identified’ would undermine that justification….

         The article is worth further quotes, but it's probably best read in full.
         • Visubversa 2.1.3.1.1

           30 March 2023 at 12:36 pm

           And may I ask who will be the "we" sitting in judgement as to whether women have any continuing right to the sex based rights and protections we have managed to claw out over the last couple of hundred years? Probably the same people who denied us those spaces and rights, are resentful that we got them and that we still have them.
           • Molly 2.1.3.1.1.1

             30 March 2023 at 12:40 pm

             True. That is one of the more relevant aspects that is not recognised or addressed in the wider discussion.

             But the article has some good points for Robert to read to start to get the gist of the discussions that he is currently not a part of.
           • LawfulN 2.1.3.1.1.2

             30 March 2023 at 12:46 pm

             You're reading too much into it. She's just talking about how female-only spaces are justified using many different reasons. Some of those justifications may allow for transwomen to be fairly excluded; some not.

             The 'we' in this case just appears to mean any fair minded person judging the stated justification for female only spaces. For example, the case for excluding transwomen from having their books on a women's fiction shelf in a bookstore is a lot less compelling than excluding them from women's boxing.
             • weka …

               30 March 2023 at 12:56 pm

               For example, the case for excluding transwomen from having their books on a women's fiction shelf in a bookstore is a lot less compelling than excluding them from women's boxing.

               Unfortunately while this was true in the past, the aggressive push to colonise women's culture means that there is a compelling case to be made about library shelves. Putting a trans women section within women's section might be an appropriate compromise (assuming there is such a thing as a women's section).
               • LawfulN …

                 30 March 2023 at 1:00 pm

                 Yes, but it's a lot less compelling than the justification for exclusion from boxing given that nobody will permanently injured or die if you do the bookshelf thing. Replace the books with some other anodyne example if you like.
                 • weka …

                   30 March 2023 at 2:03 pm

                   I would say less compelling, rather than a lot less compelling because the latter implies that it wouldn't matter. I'm pointing out that in the current milieu, it does matter.
                   • LawfulN …

                     30 March 2023 at 2:21 pm

                     This is why you are going to lose. The average person will be difficult to persuade about these peripheral issues—hardly anyone cares about books because hardly anyone reads.

                     Because too many GCFs lump these peripheral issues in with things that everyone thinks matters—like women's physical security—people won't take you seriously. Just like Labour and the Greens won't take you seriously because they know they own you.

                     Gender critical feminists need to pick their battles better. Go for the big stuff first. Worry about the little stuff later. Eventually, both sides will have to compromise. It's just going to happen.
             • Shanreagh …

               30 March 2023 at 3:08 pm

               For example, the case for excluding transwomen from having their books on a women's fiction shelf in a bookstore is a lot less compelling than excluding them from women's boxing.

               Why wouldn't they have separate section for transwomen, so men, women, transwomen?

               I find all the women's writers on women's issues compelling as they speak to me about women's issues.

               Men/transwomen I would find interesting as commentary as they are not women.
       • Robert Guyton 2.1.3.2

         30 March 2023 at 11:52 am

         What was the fundamental mistake about a minute into the article?
         • LawfulN 2.1.3.2.1

           30 March 2023 at 12:37 pm

           Where she starts talking about gender essentialism. She's attributing to gender critical feminists a view they do not hold.

           "Gender essentialism is the idea that there is an innate, immutable ‘womanness’ or ‘manness’ which expresses itself in what we consider ‘femininity’ or ‘masculinity’."

           https://overland.org.au/2019/05/what-is-gender-critical-anyway-on-essentialism-and-transphobia/

           Gender critical feminists do not believe this. They believe (roughly) that there is a sex binary and that gender is a social construct assigned to people based on that sex binary, which happens to be hierarchical, and therefore objectionable. Their main aim is to separate females as a sex class from the gender roles society assigns to them—this was the overriding aim of radical feminism roughly from the start.

           The author makes a rookie error.
           • weka 2.1.3.2.1.1

             30 March 2023 at 12:50 pm

             this. GCF positions aren't a secret, so it begs the question of why Dimsie doesn't know this or chooses to misrepresent it.
             • LawfulN …

               30 March 2023 at 12:54 pm

               Probably because being a bad faith actor works. The same underlying reason that her allies attacked the Albert Park event – they feel that they are right, that they can get away with it, and that acting unfairly is justified if it furthers their goal.
               • weka …

                 30 March 2023 at 2:13 pm

                 I find it hard to tell how much is bad faith, and how much is that they really just don't understand the GCF position. Both I guess, but also the latter is a wilful ignorance at this point.
     • Liberty Belle 2.1.4

       30 March 2023 at 11:35 am

       Hey, the author may not have to harbour her paranoia about gender critical feminists for too long. If the world follows Canada, they'll all be in jail.
       • Shanreagh 2.1.4.1

         30 March 2023 at 1:06 pm

         That is truly terrifying.
     • Shanreagh 2.1.5

       30 March 2023 at 12:54 pm

       This is part of a post that came to me as part of a sign on site. The context is a letter to respond to a friend who thinks that the other is 'transphobic' This word together with other transactivist buzz words such as 'Terf '& 'Nazi' is what many of us get thrown at us when we try to respond from a women's rights & issues point of view. These are world-wide trans ways to respond and you can see them appearing against women all round the globe.

       "It's very difficult—without radically changing one's basic and reasonable understandings and experiences of the world—to avoid being transphobic.

       • I believe that the sexes are more real and hence more socially important than gender identity. That makes me transphobic.
       • I believe that the bodies of males and females have different capabilities from each other. That makes me transphobic.
       • I think it is mad to have males competing with and against females in female sport events. That makes me transphobic.
       • I think it is wrong and cruel to subject female prisoners to males in their cells. That makes me transphobic.
       • I think transing children is abusive, and stopping their natural healthy growth is extreme abuse. That makes me transphobic.
       • I fail to celebrate, and actually find it tragic when people wish to surgically remove healthy, functioning parts of their bodies. That makes me transphobic."

       https://theministryhasfallen.substack.com/p/guest-post-an-explainer-to-an-old

       The letter is full of sensible words and has some good advice for what we can do to make spaces safer for women and children.

       I cannot get on to the site to comment, as even though I have a nom de plume, it keeps giving my email address. This probably my error. I will fix soon.

       I was hoping that an author from TS could seek an Ok to quote the whole sensible piece on here.
   • RosieLee 2.2

     30 March 2023 at 9:15 am

     I'm sick to death with all this nonsense. People are free to sleep/have sex with whoever they like. Why does it have to become a virtue signalling, labeling, publicity and attention seeking thing? And I’m not going to join a selfrighteous hate group either.
     Enough already.
     • Molly 2.2.1

       30 March 2023 at 9:28 am

       You don't seem to understand what the issue is RosieLee.

       It's not about sexual orientation – although that protected characteristic has also been affected – it is about the failure of legislators and policy makers to consider the impacts of the changes they are making. And so the impacts have been far reaching across many sectors of society.

       That is why it is a political discussion, one that was avoided by a No Debate stance in NZ.
     • Visubversa 2.2.2

       30 March 2023 at 10:13 am

       Why do you think this has to do with sexual orientation Rosie? You possibly think that because gender ideology has used the good PR built up built up by the Gay Liberation movement for decades, and because decades ago, the vast majority of trans people were same sex attracted.

       These days – even the words "same sex attracted" are referred to as "a transphobic dogwhistle" and many institutions have redefined homosexuality as "attraction to the same gender" rather than "attraction to the same sex".

       The faces of todays Trans Rights movement are much more like Alex Drummond than Carmen or Georgina. Google "Alex Drummond Stonewall" and you will find Alex – 50 something, no hormones, no surgery, does not even shave off the beard. Identifies as a woman and as a lesbian – basically because he is still the same straight man he was before he put on the skirt.

       Lesbians who say no to people like Alex are told that we are bigots and transphobes.
     • Charlotte Rust 2.2.3

       30 March 2023 at 11:10 am

       On the surface a reasonable idea if you are open minded but many are not. Just ask gay men or lesbians how their experience of their sexual preferences being aired has gone for them over the past 50-70 years.
   • weka 2.3

     30 March 2023 at 10:31 am

     nailed it James.
   • Corey 2.4

     30 March 2023 at 1:54 pm

     Yes indeed, the majority of LGBT people who are once again utterly disgusted with the actions of a small but vocal minority of "queer" activists and their allies who are making the entire community look bad and making life harder for the rest of us are being once again told that we have some internal phobia and are bigots and ought to shut the fuck up.

     The allies are the worst tbh, they say the craziest shit and just encourage the TRAs.

     These people glamourize the stonewall riot as if the stonewall riot was what got LGBT people equal rights and not the following decades and decades of peaceful activism, coalition building and court cases after stonewall

     Increasingly, queer activists think violence achieves things because of their warped views of stonewall's significance but at the same time mock and belittle the peaceful activism that actually changed laws because in their minds it's never been worse to be LGBT+ despite it being the best time in history.

     And because their allies and media and left wing politicians constantly reinforcing their opinions and constantly telling them that trans people are in the middle of a genocide queer activists are starting to get violent.

     As for what happened in America as a queer person I've been saying for years that this is what has been happening and that it's going to end in tragedy and laughed at…

     Whether you are on the left or right , If you live in a social media bubble where everyone agrees with you, if you have no real connection to society outside your bubble and the media and pandering politicians constantly tell you you're a victim and at risk if being replaced/ exterminated, it's no surprise that you'll get violent.

     The greatest threat to human existence other than climate change is that we have 8 billion people all living in alternative realities curated by algorithms which reinforce all of our beliefs and opinions and dehumanize those who disagree with us m.
     • Visubversa 2.4.1

       30 March 2023 at 2:54 pm

       Quite right Corey.

       If I see a book about Gay Liberation and any sort of Gay Rights history I check the index for "Marsha P Johnson". If it says that Marsha was a trans activist who started the Stonewall riots and that started Gay Liberation, I put it back on the shelf. None of those things is true. Malcolm was a gay man who did drag. He came late to Stonewall. He worked for Gay rights certainly, but that struggle had been going on for a long time before Stonewall.

       The Mormons convert the dead – the Transcult transes the dead.
     • Molly 2.4.2

       30 March 2023 at 2:58 pm

       Yes, agree. Particularly with this and your last sentence:

       'The allies are the worst tbh, they say the craziest shit and just encourage the TRAs.

       These people glamourize the stonewall riot as if the stonewall riot was what got LGBT people equal rights and not the following decades and decades of peaceful activism, coalition building and court cases after stonewall."

       Note: I consider the ref to TRAs here to be to a very small percentage of the transgender community. Usually, but not always men with a transgender identity who are threatening and aggressive.
     • gsays 2.4.3

       30 March 2023 at 7:39 pm

       I value your view, analysis and vernacular Corey.
     • Patricia Bremner 2.4.4

       30 March 2023 at 10:54 pm

       Thanks Corey, well put.
     • SPC 2.4.5

       30 March 2023 at 11:04 pm

       A good post, but I would quibble about this part

       The allies are the worst tbh

       The advocacy for self ID is/was a problem (support for this from allies may have been mistaken), the attacks on some transsexauls as transcum by self ID transgender women and non binary TRA's was another – then there was the exhibitionist tone of the dicks in female places (hardly being respectful). Some would have found this reminiscent of the shibboleth about lesbians needing a man/male nurse in an institution of care.
3. Joe90 3

   30 March 2023 at 8:35 am

   Decarbonising industrial processes with the "box of rocks" concept.

   https://twitter.com/drvolts/status/1640060077527924737
   • Sanctuary 3.1

     30 March 2023 at 8:43 am

     India is in serious risk of a massive wet bulb event in the next few years that could, in a country where the ruling classes view the poorest of their fellow Indians with complete indifference, lead to a human catastrophe.

     https://twitter.com/PGDynes/status/1640386018451812356
     • tsmithfield 3.1.1

       30 March 2023 at 9:18 am

       India already has an incredibly hot in summer. My ex-brother in law who is from Pakistan said that cricket is played in the cooler months in India because people would likely die if they tried playing outdoors in summer.

       So, I don't think they would want it getting too much hotter over there.
     • ianmac 3.1.2

       30 March 2023 at 10:43 am

       When I was in Al Ain inland Emirates, the temperature was frequently in the 40s. But very very dry. I could find no insect life. The imported Asian labourers were expected to do the physical work but were not expected to work in temperatures above 50degrees. For some reason the official thermometer never made it above 49degrees.

       What on earth will happen to the Indians who have to work in order to live. The vast population would spread to where? Mothers, fathers and the kids. Help.
4. Hunter Thompson II 4

   30 March 2023 at 8:58 am

   There has been controversy lately over some writing which is said to be a poem about Captain Cook.

   If you want really powerful poetry, read "The Colonel" by Carolyn Forche (1981), available on the web. It deals with brutality in El Salvador. Just don't expect iambic pentameter.
   • joe90 4.1

     30 March 2023 at 10:04 am

     Indeed. And the coolest dictator in the world is at it again.

     […]

     The colonel returned with a sack used to bring groceries
     home. He spilled many human ears on the table. They were like
     dried peach halves. There is no other way to say this. He took one
     of them in his hands, shook it in our faces, dropped it into a water
     glass. It came alive there. I am tired of fooling around he said. As
     for the rights of anyone, tell your people they can go fuck them-
     selves.

     […]

     https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/49862/the-colonel
5. Sanctuary 5

   30 March 2023 at 9:44 am

   Looks like Tova and Duncan are doing their bit to take the heat out of the jobs market….
   • Bearded Git 5.1

     30 March 2023 at 10:33 am

     I'm devastated…..just devastated.
     • Sanctuary 5.1.1

       30 March 2023 at 11:47 am

       I know, thoughts and prayers.
   • Liberty Belle 5.2

     30 March 2023 at 11:47 am

     Both Sean Plunkett and Martyn Bradbury called this weeks ago. Bomber is gloating this morning.
   • gsays 5.3

     30 March 2023 at 12:34 pm

     More importantly who will broadcast the cricket?

     There is an ODI tomorrow….
     • Craig H 5.3.1

       30 March 2023 at 1:26 pm

       Live on Duke which is also available live on TVNZ's website. Bit high on the data costs if not on Wifi or unlimited data plan though…
       • gsays 5.3.1.1

         30 March 2023 at 5:52 pm

         Chur, Craig.

         Should be easier and more straight forward than trying to stream off a broken cricfree.
6. Ad 6

   30 March 2023 at 10:31 am

   Great to see Republicans and Democrats agree to formally repeal Congress’ 1991 and 2002 authorizations for military action in Iraq.

   https://www.politico.com/news/2023/03/29/tim-kaine-todd-young-iraq-00089369

   We are so overdue to see a debate in Parliament about AUKUS and any side hussles NZDF and MoD are preparing.

   I want to see Labour+National fully debating and then fully agreeing any new Defence posture, before the US Pacific Defence Undersecretary and the Australian ADF slide us into something we simply have no mandate over.

   If the US Congress can get over their divisions and rescind war orders, well we can generate the same debate as well
7. tsmithfield 7

   30 March 2023 at 12:46 pm

   Weka et al.,

   I have a thought for how you could advance your cause on the women's rights issues you have been outlighting over recent weeks.

   That is, why not aim for a CIR with a question such as: "Females should not have to share their exclusively female areas with people with penises".

   I think this type of question crystalises one of the main issues in terms that most could understand.

   I imagine responses to this type of question would quickly pass the 200k threshold, and would get a fairly overwhelming response in favour in a referendum.
   • Ad 7.1

     30 March 2023 at 1:51 pm

     It would not be difficult to get a Human Rights Commission decision on this point to successfully follow the BORA implications and also be practical. That would assist local and central government departments who own and operate the great majority of shared public facilities in this country.
8. Blade 8

   30 March 2023 at 3:37 pm

   Today FM pays the price for being woke. Given the FM crew is probably well and truly pissed by now, the 5pm meeting with management should be a hoot. Richardson may have to keep an eye on Duncan Garner.

   Should Sean Plunket ever get a radio spectrum spot, ZB may also lose a solid chunk of their listeners.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/300842932/theyve-fed-us-today-fm-staff-go-to-the-pub-stations-fate-due-to-be-announced-at-5pm

   https://www.newsroom.co.nz/mediaroom-radio-ratings
9. roblogic 9

   30 March 2023 at 4:29 pm

   Another great announcement from Labour today

   https://twitter.com/LabourMaoriNZ/status/1641258310627389440?s=20
   • SPC 9.1

     30 March 2023 at 4:31 pm

     Just as well the legal person was not given a male or female identity …
     • roblogic 9.1.1

       30 March 2023 at 4:36 pm

       Just tryna accentuate something positive here. (will leave aside the temptation to moan about govt showing preference for some religious views but not others)
       • SPC 9.1.1.1

         30 March 2023 at 5:00 pm

         The aggregation of incorporated capital (mammon) leads to person status (so I suppose that can include receiving asset land title or cash in lieu of).
         • roblogic 9.1.1.1.1

           30 March 2023 at 6:35 pm

           Are you referring to corporations being legal persons? In New Zealand I think they are called 'entities' but IMHO the correct term would be 'egregore'
           • SPC 9.1.1.1.1.1

             30 March 2023 at 6:50 pm

             Sure, that comes up in law in some "jurisdictions", then the sense of entitlement to exploit land and labour for profit …
     • bwaghorn 9.1.2

       30 March 2023 at 5:17 pm

       A moari girl on fb reliable informed me that all mountains are Koro, so he's a he ,plus didn't Taranaki sulk off after a love triangle tiff.
       • Shanreagh 9.1.2.1

         30 March 2023 at 5:24 pm

         bwaghorn your spelling of Maori is ??????

         The story of the Mountains.

         https://teara.govt.nz/en/whenua-how-the-land-was-shaped/page-4#:~:text=The%20story%20goes%20that%20in,battle%20Tongariro%20emerged%20the%20winner.
         • bwaghorn 9.1.2.1.1

           30 March 2023 at 6:45 pm

           I'm on a ph with 51 year old eyes , I apologize to any who are deeply offended
   • Shanreagh 9.2

     30 March 2023 at 5:21 pm

     Yes the Treaty Claims process carries on dealing fairness and equity as it has done for many years.

     Back in the dark infested spaces at the back of the cupboard in the room labelled 'Policies not wanted on the journey' is a once thoughtful way forward called Three Waters.

     I would love to be reading in 10 years time how well this is working as groups open a new water treatment plant or pipes are inspected on regular basis, sewerage outfalls are retired from service and the 1000th trade apprentice is acknowldged.
10. weka 10

    30 March 2023 at 7:53 pm

    Putting this here so I can find it later. Man punches elderly woman. The tweet’s interpretation is a misrepresentation

    https://twitter.com/brutalnz/status/1641234529955504128
    • weka 10.1

      30 March 2023 at 8:56 pm

      This one is better

      https://twitter.com/rachaelwongaus/status/1641267205664030721
11. weka 11

    30 March 2023 at 8:23 pm

    And this, list of intimidation of women, decapitate terf sign

    https://twitter.com/aja02537920/status/1617143815306989568
12. Shanreagh 12

    30 March 2023 at 8:59 pm

    For Robert from the collection from Weka above.

    A documentary made in 2017 by Maria MacLachlan who was assaulted by Trans activists at Speakers Corner.

    So you can see how long this madness has been with us.

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