Open Mike 30/10/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:04 am, October 30th, 2018 - 104 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

104 comments on “Open Mike 30/10/2018”

  1. WeTheBleeple 1
    30 October 2018 at 6:41 am

    “Well I’d like to be President” – Hillary Clinton

    So now there’s the specter of this corporate toady coming back in when clearly she is not what the public want. And despite her denial, she couldn’t help but entertain her ego in public, and thus the public rumor mill. Same shit different day. Simply not attractive anymore.

    Having her about is just sowing doubt.

    Clinton led Democrats… There’s nothing attractive in it except ‘not Trump’. Is that a platform?

    I bet a lot of Trumps votes were votes for not-Hillary.

    It’s akin to rolling Bridges out to comment on his possibly running during our next election (I scry the fools demise). He’ll only remind us why we don’t want Nats. Out of sight out of mind is the obvious smart choice for future Nats re Bridges, and today’s Democrats re Clinton.

    Not really putting her country first, is she.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/10/29/hillary-clintons-curious-comments-about/?utm_term=.a62f18218179

    • Treetop 1.1
      30 October 2018 at 7:52 am

      Hillary is finding it hard to leave politics behind. She had to swallow a dead rat in Trump being elected the president.

      Hillary cannot change the past. Surely there are other ways Hillary can enjoy herself, other than politics.

      • SaveNZ 1.1.1
        30 October 2018 at 8:55 am

        @Treetops “Surely there are other ways Hillary can enjoy herself, other than politics.”

        the political leaders become addicted to power. Clinton should go. There was the opportunity to work with Sanders and win, the Democrats chose not to.

        Labour and Greens in NZ combined and inspite of all the issues, they did managed to win.

      • One Two 1.1.2
        30 October 2018 at 9:17 am

        They owe their backers…

        Clinton leaves politics when she is allowed to…not when she want to…

    • JohnSelway 1.2
      30 October 2018 at 8:50 am

      I can’t stand Hilary and desperately hope she doesn’t run again but she is no more or less a corporate toady than Trump.

      • McFlock 1.2.1
        30 October 2018 at 1:04 pm

        I don’t think she is as bad as painted, and she did win the popular vote, but I don’t think she’ll seriously run again.

        I think she might keep it open as long as possible to be Faux’s boogey-woman so that they have to invent hate from scratch when the actual candidates come to the podium.

        As long as she’s a might-run, they’re looking at her. The far right (and sanctimonius left) have a real bugbear about the Clintons.

    • Dukeofurl 1.3
      30 October 2018 at 10:46 am

      No its not her wanting to run.

      read what it says
      “offered comments that some interpreted as leaning in to a 2020 run. Clinton’s words aren’t nearly so clear, ”

      Interpret all you like – but shes isnt running again.
      this is what she does want

      “I’m going to do everything in my power to make sure we have a Democrat in the White House come January of 2021.”

      • Dukeofurl 1.3.1
        30 October 2018 at 2:47 pm

        So heres where she says NO – twice
        “Mrs. Clinton initially said “no” when asked whether she wanted to run for president again. She then paused and repeated “no.”

        because she paused and said ( hypothetically) ‘Id like to be President’ the haters have gone crazy.

        • WeTheBleeple 1.3.1.1
          30 October 2018 at 4:25 pm

          People who know Hillary is an unpopular corporate suck-up = Haters.

          Is it cheaper to run a life in black and white?

  2. Carolyn_Nth 2
    30 October 2018 at 6:54 am

    Reports Merkel to quit as party leader.

    Will try to stay as Chancellor til 2021.

    May be a big change for Europe?

    • Treetop 2.1
      30 October 2018 at 8:08 am

      Merkel is realistic and crafty when it comes to not being able to hold power due to instability.

      Merkel has chosen to go on her own terms. Maybe were Merkel gone as leader, Britain may benefit with better terms for Brexit.

      • SaveNZ 2.1.1
        30 October 2018 at 8:51 am

        Merkel is like Helen Clark. A smart, good leader, but who got blinded on some issues and did not look forward to the future as well as she should have…aka now Germany divided more. NZ divided more by neoliberalism by Clark who signed the FTA with China. Nice idea, bad details left in, that is now going to make NZ a much less equal, less democratic society run to other countries agendas.

        Leadership is very hard, but it is worse when maybe the leaders like the idea of something with out looking at how it can negatively impact the positives… and really looking at the fine print. Better to not sign a flawed deal than sign one and then think you will somehow get out easily. Brexit comes to mind if the UK leaders had managed the EU expansion better with policy, Brexit would not have come to pass.

      • Dukeofurl 2.1.2
        30 October 2018 at 10:50 am

        You arent reading the story properly- Comprehension 101

        “Maybe were Merkel gone as leader, Britain may benefit with better terms for Brexit.”

        Merkel is letting go of being CDU party leader.( who doesnt run the country)

        Shes staying on as Chancellor till 2021 or so.

    • Sabine 2.2
      30 October 2018 at 8:30 am

      to be honest she should have found a successor and helped that person up rather then stay on for so long.
      .

      • Dukeofurl 2.2.1
        30 October 2018 at 11:18 am

        Well they do have a system where the various state leaders can have an opportunity to run for national leader.

  3. AsleepWhileWalking 3
    30 October 2018 at 7:54 am

    After the documentary on the Boeing plant and the lax attitude to safety I don’t think making this claim is wise.

    Doco discussion: https://www.forbes.com/sites/johngoglia/2014/09/10/documentary-questions-quality-and-safety-of-boeing-787/

    Quote via Stuff:
    But aviation expert Neil Hansford said it was highly unlikely a technical fault within the plane’s structure had led it to plough into the ocean and the model was among the safest in the world.

    While the aircraft is yet to take to Australian skies, Virgin Australia has 30 Boeing 737 MAX 8 planes on order, with the first of the fleet due to arrive in late 2019. It is not known if the aircraft is heading to New Zealand airlines.

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-troubles/108203426/aircraft-model-at-centre-of-indonesia-plane-tragedy-bound-for-australian-airline

  4. reason 4
    30 October 2018 at 8:02 am

    Dirty Politics donations and money ….

    When the Nacts lost the last election ….. they were bloated with millions in donations ,,,, and could easily afford to run another election campaign immediately … given the chance.

    Not so for Labour and their coalition partners …… who were financially exhausted winners.

    Starting From election night where they misrepresented the result … Our slanted media has been giving us bad reporting …. and bad Hosking maths …. where being the largest minority is considered more legitimate to rule …. than getting over 50% support.

    There is a concerted effort to de-legitimize the new Govt … Just read bitter old Alwyns posts for the ‘attack lines’ …. making him good for something.

    Reading a ‘stuff’ story on anonymous donations …. spurred by Jamies Lee Ross $100,000 dirty donations back stabbings … I was amazed by the Dirty Politics flavor as Stuff twisted the truth

    And in a Wayne Mapp like way they claimed NZ first was the worst offender / biggest problem …

    However the math in NZs secret political donations was roughly something like this …

    National ———– 5 Million secret backhanders
    Labour ———– 2 Million or so

    NZ first ———— 1.2 Million or something

    Now if Im looking for the worst offenders / biggest problems ….. 5 Million by the Nats stands out like dog balls ….. unlike the election results they do have the majority…. over half …. they rule when it comes to dirty donations.

    I’d like Labour to do better … but i do not vote for them …. and I suppose they feel its the only way they can stay in the buying media space electioneering game.

    But my point is ….. the reporting stunk …. and mislead readers ,,,,

    Dirty Politics stands aligned with the dirty money….. we are buying ourselves corruption

    • Treetop 4.1
      30 October 2018 at 8:20 am

      Woodhouse needed to sign for approx 100 people to avoid being deported. He did not have to disclose his reason for doing so.

      Were donations made to the National party to influence the immigration minister?

      Probably, but proving it is another matter.

      NZ is no different than any other country, when it comes to the smell of money to sway politicians.

      • reason 4.1.1
        30 October 2018 at 8:44 am

        Too true …. and double hard to find out about or prove …. when to many in our media run cover for the criminals.

        Reading either a herald or stuff report …. on the single largest forfeiture that has occurred in New Zealand to date …. $43 million seized under our proceeds of crime laws.

        I was struck by the language which described an ‘agreement’ between William Yan – also known as Bill Liu, Yang Liu and Yong Ming Yan … and our courts.

        Other media has described it as ‘ struck a deal ‘.

        Usually criminal matters uses court language like ‘ judgements ‘ or ‘ forfeiture ‘ , ‘seized’ etc.

        but the criminally rich …. reach agreements.

        New Zealand ………… moderately racist …… and the last 9 years growing economic apartheid

  5. esoteric pineapples 5
    30 October 2018 at 8:07 am

    New Zealand makes it on to the Jimmy Dore Show

    • xanthe 5.1
      30 October 2018 at 8:26 am

      Thats Suzie Dawson, fearless self promoter and bully , Her modus operandi is to declare herself “spokesperson” and then divert resources and publicity towards supporting herself in the manner she feels she deserves IMHO. avoid , do not engage without witnesses !.

      • SaveNZ 5.1.1
        30 October 2018 at 8:45 am

        And xanthe, is that your only take home from that link,

        attack the person?

        not actually any comment on the TPPA itself and how it came to be ratified when so many of the public were against it…

        • joe90 5.1.1.1
          30 October 2018 at 9:08 am

          Dawson’s a self aggrandising POS who, despite being asked not to, inserted herself into a family’s grief to fulfill her own delusion of importance.

          • SaveNZ 5.1.1.1.1
            30 October 2018 at 9:15 am

            Who the fuck cares about Dawson, what about the issues, If people were less worried about individual people and more about how policy like TPPA is going to effect themselves, their families and the next generation, it might be harder to power interests to get everything through… forget about semantics and individuals and identity politics and concentrate on the results and effects of policy.

            • Dukeofurl 5.1.1.1.1.1
              30 October 2018 at 11:23 am

              0.5% of the population cares about the TPPA in the way you do.

              Its the well off people like yourself problem. And even then its a bogey that ‘might happen’.
              Do you really lie awake at night thinking ‘the government is going to be sued’

    • SaveNZ 5.2
      30 October 2018 at 8:38 am

      Thanks for that Link, esoteric pineapples. As the commentator says you get punched with the left fist as well as the right fist.

      The Green Party were the only ones who did not sell out the people. If they were in the media for that, instead of cunts, benefit frauds or woke left discourses we would have a lot more Green MP’s representing us.

      Saying that the Green Party is still the best party in NZ to preserve democracy and hopefully whatever hic up going on with the Greens and how they represent their policies, they will overcome it.

      Those who spoke the best against the TPP like Norman, Cunliffe, Metiria and Harawira were harassed out of parliament and big victims of dirty politics.

      Now the issue is silent. Like Rogernomics though, not forgotten.

      As the US commentator says we now have sham democracies…

      • solkta 5.2.1
        30 October 2018 at 9:00 am

        Of course the Greens were in the media re TPPA as they were and still are staunchly opposed. You know this. Everybody who has opposed TPPA knows this. The reality is that this is not as bigger issue with most people as it is for you. We have lost this battle, but that is no reason to abandon all the social justice issues that the Greens have always stood for. Get over yourself.

        Searching the Greens website for “TPPA” provides 65 articles and press releases: https://www.greens.org.nz/search/content/TPPA

        Searching for “CPTPP” provides a further 6: https://www.greens.org.nz/search/content/CPTPP

        • SaveNZ 5.2.1.1
          30 October 2018 at 9:09 am

          Doesn’t even make the home page of the Greens website.

          Seem to remember “trains for the shore” being a big headline on the Greens website during the election and ‘Te Reo’ for all…

          I know crazy, how those working multiple jobs, with kids or in poverty, bad internet does not make the effort to search Green Party policy and find those 65 articles when the Greens don’t even put it on their home page website with all their other policy directives..

          It’s the people’s fault, is that what the Greens tell themselves???

          • solkta 5.2.1.1.1
            30 October 2018 at 9:24 am

            All press releases go on the front page as they come out and stay there in chronological order. The last on CPTPP was a week ago:

            https://www.greens.org.nz/news/press-release/green-party-continues-oppose-cptpp-puts-amendments

            • SaveNZ 5.2.1.1.1.1
              30 October 2018 at 9:34 am

              missing the point again Solka, with volunteers like you for Greens it explains a lot about how they languish in the polls.

              BTW looked at Labour’s 355 day achievements, NO mention of TPPA, Labour knew nobody wanted it, fuckers. If it was that great for NZ, why no mention from Labour?

              Saying that, strategically worse, is the Greens that were against it, but failed to have it on their home page even though there are 13 other policy directives such airport rail, Te reo and refugees.

              What happened, run out of space???

              Nothing about spying either… I guess after the Gutsy Greens were forced out, they wanted to ‘tone it’ down into what power interest feel more comfortable with.

              • solkta …
                30 October 2018 at 9:44 am

                Labour gave assurances on a number of points re TPPA and then reneged on the most important one, the investor category of ISDS. This was beyond the control of the Green Party. Even taking the government down would not have stopped CPTPP.

                • SaveNZ …
                  31 October 2018 at 8:17 am

                  And they should be shouting they were the only honest ones on TPPA from the rooftops not hiding it from the public. NZ First publicly disagree with Labour all the time and they seem to get away with it.

      • Draco T Bastard 5.2.2
        30 October 2018 at 11:58 am

        As the US commentator says we now have sham democracies…

        Representative Democracy was designed to keep the power in the hands of the rich.

        That said, I can certainly see Representative Democracy being the only viable option prior to the present productivity, mass education and communications capabilities. Present capabilities allow us to drop from a 40 hour week down to a ~20 hour week while still maintaining a reasonable living standard and thus allow people time to engage in politics and voting directly for the policies that they want.

        In other words, it’s time that we transitioned to Direct Democracy. Of course, that does mean shifting to online voting as paper voting simply isn’t responsive enough or give enough options.

  6. SaveNZ 6
    30 October 2018 at 8:18 am

    It’s great that NZ councils are seriously thinking about climate change, emissions, pollution and more trucks on the road… (sarcasm) … In this case sounds like council is considering trucking rubbish 300KM’s away to save a few short term $$$$…

    So much easier to do that than actually try to stop the pollution of rubbish at source by discouraging business from overproducing packaging rubbish, not enough compostable rubbish, or encouraging composting, less consumer goods and the the recycle of non recyclables back to the retailers or manufacturers…

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/369743/rubbish-offer-forces-councils-to-reconsider-42m-landfill-plan

    • Bearded Git 6.1
      30 October 2018 at 8:30 am

      The QLDC trucks all of Wanaka’s rubbish over to the Wakatipu Basin, about 80km.

      There has to be a better way. Reduce. Reuse. Recycle.

      • SaveNZ 6.1.1
        30 October 2018 at 8:41 am

        @ Bearded Git- exactly surely not that hard… of course with TPPA our government probably can’t even tax manufacturers for packaging or they will sue, that’s the ‘new’ democracy… polluting corporations taking more and more taxpayer money to clean up after themselves and instead of money going to schools and hospitals it’s going to truck companies and rubbish dumps and lawyers.

        • Dukeofurl 6.1.1.1
          30 October 2018 at 10:58 am

          TPPA?

          They cant sue for local issues like that . They would have to use the locla courts not international arbitration

          “We have narrowed their ambit. The last version of the agreement – for example – if you had disputes between the government and an overseas contractor building the Waterview Tunnel – they could have sued the government if they were in dispute through an international tribunal – now they can’t.”
          An overseas contractor would now have to pursue the government through the New Zealand courts.
          The government also had a bilaterial agreement with Australia and other countries that they would never use the ISDS clauses.”
          https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/348923/david-parker-defends-new-tpp-agreement

      • bwaghorn 6.1.2
        30 October 2018 at 11:36 am

        Burn in a furnace to make power .

        • Draco T Bastard 6.1.2.1
          30 October 2018 at 12:05 pm

          Not long term viable as Norway/Sweden(?) is now learning as they simply don’t create so much rubbish any more. Far better to simply not create so much in the first place and not need the furnaces.

          • McFlock 6.1.2.1.1
            30 October 2018 at 1:15 pm

            In Qtown it just might work. Tourists aren’t going to stop with the rubbish any time soon.

          • bwaghorn 6.1.2.1.2
            30 October 2018 at 5:02 pm

            “Far better to simply not create so much in the first place and not need the furnaces.”
            Love your optimism !!
            I believe they get paid to take other countries rubbish in Sweden . But building small should solve waste volume problems . On in every city as opposed to huge centralized ones.

            • Draco T Bastard 6.1.2.1.2.1
              30 October 2018 at 7:10 pm

              I believe they get paid to take other countries rubbish in Sweden .

              I believe so as well.

              Problem: Other countries are also reducing the trash that they produce.

              As I say – not feasible long term.

        • Stuart Munro 6.1.2.2
          30 October 2018 at 3:25 pm

          Works for Seoul. Doesn’t meet all their energy needs of course – but still worth doing.

          • McFlock 6.1.2.2.1
            30 October 2018 at 5:09 pm

            Really, all the facility needs to do is cover its costs minus whatever trucking and tip fees would have been.

          • Draco T Bastard 6.1.2.2.2
            30 October 2018 at 7:11 pm

            Why waste the energy and resources to create the waste in the first place?

        • SaveNZ 6.1.2.3
          31 October 2018 at 8:19 am

          “Burn in a furnace to make power”

          What century do you live in???

          Sounds like you are still back in the 1900’s…

    • Draco T Bastard 6.2
      30 October 2018 at 12:03 pm

      We could save ourselves millions per year just banning the spam that arrives in the mail box. The fact that such rubbish wasn’t banned with the electronic form was because of tradition. Businesses had been doing it for decades (against everyone;s wishes which is why it’s called ‘junkmail’) and so the government decided that they couldn’t ban it despite it costing us so damn much more than electronic spam.

      • gsays 6.2.1
        30 October 2018 at 5:20 pm

        Speaking of junk mail.. from time to time when doIng the recycling in Feilding, I see the local junk mail distribution rooster emptying banana box after banana box (more than a dozen last count)into the paper bin.

        Another example of a rate payer subsidy to business.

        So much waste.

  7. Adrian Thornton 7
    30 October 2018 at 8:32 am

    New Zealand Labour openly abandons all pretext of being a political party for the working classes in favour of defending the “deserving” middle classes…as if we didn’t already know…

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018668919/collins-kiwibuild-criticism-mean-spirited-twyford

    Yes that centrist MF Phil Twyford made it quite clear in his RNZ interview this morning that the middle classes are the only kiwi’s who ‘deserve’ to own their own government built ‘affordable homes’ and that low wage earners can just get fucked.. that in the eyes of Labour that they are undeserving of the right to own their own government built ‘affordable home’.

    Well one can only to come to this conclusion as Labour have and are doing absolutely nothing to change, modify, slowdown or in any way inhibit the hideous and obscene kiwi obsession with commodifying our homes into just another tradable commodity.

    Turn Labour Left!

    • Pat 7.1
      30 October 2018 at 8:37 am

      well the ‘deserving middle class’ may well have just been gifted negative equity…..something many who missed out may be quite happy not to receive

    • SaveNZ 7.2
      30 October 2018 at 9:03 am

      I read somewhere that only 40% of people can afford the ‘affordable’ houses. So what happens to the other 60%? No doubt some global corporate will come to the rescue with a taxpayer funded option.. after people live in cars and tents for a few years.

      The only good news for renters, is that the locals and those that recently got residency here under the Natz are now leaving for better jobs and working conditions elsewhere and lower costs of living so I think there is a bit of boil off the rental market in Auckland. Had a look the other day and there seemed more rental properties on Trade me, maybe a sham, who knows.

      Neoliberalism has screwed many industries now in NZ, hospitality, construction, I think they are after the teachers now with the big migration drive ramping up everyday in the MSM.

      Not sure how a foreign teacher, new to NZ and without knowledge of our curriculum, is going to fair better than a local one with the amount of special needs kids, poverty, housing shortages and cost of living. But hey, lure them in, lure them in… don’t address the underlying problems on current teachers!!!

      • Dukeofurl 7.2.1
        30 October 2018 at 11:01 am

        Thats because you havent been doing any reading.

        Twyford has made clear , Kiwibuild and more State house build go hand in hand in the future plans

        • adam 7.2.1.1
          30 October 2018 at 12:08 pm

          Yeah, shut and wait poor people, you we’re told!!!

          • McFlock 7.2.1.1.1
            30 October 2018 at 1:21 pm

            Actually, if you look at the HNZ stock between March and June 2018, it increased by almost 500 homes in those three months.

            Kiwibuild homes completed in that time? Somewhere around zero?

            It seems Labour made the middle class wait…

            • Dukeofurl 7.2.1.1.1.1
              30 October 2018 at 2:52 pm

              Kiwbuild owners middle class?
              They included a warehouse worker, concrete worker , nurses etc..

              Find another grievance to have a whinge about….. to spare us all , maybe not.

              • McFlock …
                30 October 2018 at 3:06 pm

                lol true, I should have guessed the nats would be pulling the most extreme case they can bullshit from, as well.

                But it’s also nice to see the HNZ stock increasing again. HNZ stock dropped 9.5% from 2011 to 2017.

            • adam 7.2.1.1.1.2
              30 October 2018 at 4:27 pm

              Your link is crap – what am i supposed to look at – the ministry massaging figures? *sigh* you labour party hacks are almost as bad as the Tory scum.

              • McFlock …
                30 October 2018 at 4:41 pm

                Nice example of wilful blindness there. Reality doesn’t suit your fixation, therefore the figures must be wrong even if you can’t explain how.

                • Dukeofurl …
                  30 October 2018 at 5:17 pm

                  never mind Flock, hes just a local jumped up left wing Trump type. let him wallow in his ignorance

                  • adam …
                    30 October 2018 at 6:07 pm

                    Oh look dukeofurl, brefet of actual ideas to discuss a point so does their usual – abuse the commentator.

                    As for the trump rib, you might want to examine your behaviour – your the one who acts like trump not me.

            • SaveNZ 7.2.1.1.1.3
              31 October 2018 at 8:22 am

              If the NZH stock increase why is the waiting list for state housing increasing. More poverty perhaps or just dodgy figures???

              There’s a certain drug lord who needs a place when he comes out of prison whose recently been granted residency.

        • SaveNZ 7.2.1.2
          31 October 2018 at 8:16 am

          Only not hand in hand, because people are moving into houses that they will privately own on former state house land, but hey, the state house tenants are still in emergency hotels, housing, tents, cars and couch surfing. Not hand in hand at all, it is trickle down…

  8. Bearded Git 8
    30 October 2018 at 9:30 am

    I know this is already linked to on TS, but this brilliant expose/analysis of the JLR affair (to date!) by Frank Macskasy needs to be read by everybody.

    https://fmacskasy.wordpress.com/2018/10/30/some-troubling-questions-about-the-ross-affair/

    • Dukeofurl 8.1
      30 October 2018 at 11:13 am

      The extra strange part of this , and shows the medias working hand in glove with national.

      When Mayor Browns extra marital affair was revealed , maybe 5 years ago, the other womans name wasnt mentioned by Slater at that time.

      Very soon though NZ Herald put Bevan Chuang’s name all over its wrong page and multi page inside spread.

      Currently the Herald just does exclusives from the National partys version of events in the Ross saga. Its our Pravda – and thats not news to a lot of people.

      • Gabby 8.1.1
        30 October 2018 at 5:16 pm

        You reckon if a gnats backbencher wanted to get her version of events out there, the hibbled would just sit on it dukky? Ok..

  9. marty mars 9
    30 October 2018 at 9:56 am

    Myth busting. This is one for you red.

    If one were to “go back through history” for a thought experiment of the type that King suggested, one would merely get confused. That’s because the idea that there is a separate and unique “Western civilization,” which King said was “rooted in Western Europe, Eastern Europe and the United States of America and every place where the footprint of Christianity settled the world,” is actually only about a century old. Though the so-called Western canon is still studied and loved by many, the idea of Western civilization as something distinct from (or even superior to) the rest of the world is a product of a very specific early-20th-century moment.

    https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/time/4413537/steve-king-subgroup-western-civilization

    • RedLogix 9.1
      30 October 2018 at 2:33 pm

      Sighs … I never made it a cultural pissing contest. Still if the article wants posit that there is no such thing as “Western Civilisation”, then exactly on what basis can you argue for the existence of any other culture? Chinese? Polynesian? Amerindian? Mayan? Arabian? Persian? This is a very peculiar logic capable of erasing all these well-understood historic markers.

      Nor would I be all that surprised if the specific notion of “Western Civilisation” arose quite late in the piece; for most of the post-Renaissance era everyone in Europe would have though of themselves as French, Italian, Spanish, Scottish, English, Hungarian, or one of many Germanic identities. The idea of a pan-European “Western” identity probably only arose almost in hindsight, and with the perspective lent by the distance across the Atlantic ocean.

      And if you erase the idea of “Western Civilisation” and any possibility of it’s technical superiority, then you have zero explanation for the entire process of European colonisation which so transformed the planet. From it’s very early Portuguese origins, through to the extraordinary scope of the British Empire. You have no explanation for the first round of globalisation which began around the mid-1800’s and culminating in WW1. You have no explanation for the Scientific Revolution, for the multitude of intellectual discoveries by luminaries from Gallileo through to von Neuman. You have nothing on which to rest the Industrial Revolution, no explanation as to why it happened first in Europe and not say China, India or Mayan America. You don’t even have an explanation for the Treaty of Waitangi.

      It was of course a highly materialistic revolution, and despite it’s transforming power, it has it’s own internal contradictions, it’s own terrible limitations we still grapple with. Nor does it mean there was not plenty of history happening everywhere else on the planet. But nonetheless the era of European colonisation was pivotal to the transformation of the world, from largely isolated groups of primarily tribal, insular peoples around say 1600, into the global world we live in today.

      The whole of human history is highlighted by one group of people with better technology and social sophistication, overwhelming and subjugating their neighbours. The usual mistake people made was conflating their superior tools, with the idea of themselves being a superior people. If nothing else the post WW2 modern era should permanently put that mistake into the rubbish bin of history.

      Because we are now on the cusp of being a single global people; there are no ‘others’ to invade, to conquer or imagine we are ‘superior’ to. That will soon be a notion as repugnant as we now consider the ancient practise of chattel slavery. We are stepping through a historic transition; our challenge now is to complete this globalised world we have all built, and breath a spiritual life into it. I rest my case by quoting the last sentence of your reference:

      “Civilization is a worldwide phenomenon,” says Hunt, “and we have things in common with people everywhere.”

  10. Poission 10
    30 October 2018 at 10:14 am

    “‘Western civilization’ was invented during World War I as a way of explaining to American soldiers why they were going to fight in Europe, to stand up for the common values of our civilization, in this case against the Germans, who were seen as threatening the common values that the U.S. had with Britain and France,”

    WW1 was a clash of civilization, and neo Darwinist ideals of the German Allmacht.

    One of the most graphic pictures of the German attitude, the attitude which has rendered this war inevitable, is contained in Vernon Kellogg’s Headquarters Nights.’ It is a convincing, and an evidently truthful, exposition of the shocking, the unspeakably dreadful moral and intellectual perversion of character which makes Germany at present a menace to the whole civilized world.

    The man who reads Kellogg’s sketch and yet fails to see why we are at war, and why we must accept no peace save that of over whelming victory, is neither a good American nor a true lover of mankind.

    Theodore Roosevelt .

    https://archive.org/details/headquarters00kell/page/30

    • Philj 10.1
      30 October 2018 at 11:37 am

      Interesting quote Poisson, and timely too. ” the unspeakably dreadful moral and intellectual perversion of character which makes ******* ( you choose the nation state ) at present a menace to the whole civilized world.”
      History never repeats…?

  11. mac1 11
    30 October 2018 at 10:51 am

    Positive news.

    As a Grey Power representative, I recently attended a meeting with board members and planning staff of the local District Health Board.

    They were able to report that with a milder winter and a larger uptake of people taking influenza vaccinations, there has been far less hospital-based admissions. Another GP rep pointed out that the winter warmth payment will also have played its part in this positive outcome.

    The CEO also reported that oral health plays a huge part in maintaining people’s general wellness. There have been good steps taken in this direction, too.

    There would be some good results when the research is done and the figures published as to the positive effects that work and initiatives like this will have achieved.

    • Dukeofurl 11.1
      30 October 2018 at 11:06 am

      Thats good to hear.

      Lets hope the era of ‘new build hospitals’ that have fewer beds than the ones they replace is over.
      That was a political process where the future patient numbers were reduced to ‘make the business case work’ for the rebuild.

    • McFlock 11.2
      30 October 2018 at 1:27 pm

      Excellent news.

      🙂

  12. OnceWasTim 12
    30 October 2018 at 1:02 pm

    When you look at Goz and ChrisT’s comments and responses (above), it caused me to wonder what the best thing about the current gNatzi Party is.
    All I can come up with with that none of them are ‘NEETS’ (Not in Empolyment, Education or Training).
    They’re EMPLOYED – some as elected supposed representatives
    They’re all in Ideological EDUCATION, some even reEDUCATION
    And all are in TRAINING – whether it’s the martial and knife arts, or in media and spin, or re-imaging such as how to turn a Little Feat truck stop gal into a sophisticated leopard print gal who looks like she has some sort of authority bearing in mind her ‘colleagues’ are gaining experience day by day in the art of the knife.

    Can anybody else see anything to redeem them?

  13. Ad 13
    30 October 2018 at 1:40 pm

    Great to see Peters and Twyford overrule Kiwirail to keep the electric trains on North Island main trunk line.

    Good refurb work for the Hutt workshops as well as good sustainability outcomes.

  14. Fireblade 14
    30 October 2018 at 2:47 pm

    Twitter

    Jami-Lee Ross
    @jamileeross
    I appreciate all the recent messages of support. I was well looked after by the fantastic people at Middlemore, and grateful for their care. On medical advice I remain on leave, but have given National my proxy vote to ensure Botany continues to be represented in Parliament.
    1:45 PM – Oct 30, 2018

  15. veutoviper 15
    30 October 2018 at 2:51 pm

    Jami-Lee Ross has broken his silence briefly today on Twitter to say that he was well treated at Middlemore Hospital and to thank people for their support.

    He has also confirmed that he has given his proxy vote to National which allows him to continue to vote alongside his former party while he remains on leave from Parliament. This ensures the proportionality of Parliament is maintained thereby avoiding National being able to trigger the waka-jumping law.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/108219413/disgraced-mp-jamilee-ross-still-voting-alongside-national

    In his absence, Ross’s office has been moved from the National Party quarters in the Beehive to Bowen House.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12151346

    • Dukeofurl 15.1
      30 October 2018 at 3:17 pm

      In reality ,voting differently from national isnt a trigger for the waka jumping law.

      Under the previous similar legislation Donna Awatere took her case to the Supreme court on the very issue of ‘voting with your former party’
      the Court ruled , that voting didnt matter.
      Once she was expelled left the party , as Ross is, and the Speaker recorded them as an ‘Independent’ that was the change in proportionality that the law talked about

      http://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz/cases/richard-prebble-and-ken-shirley-v-donna-awatere-huata-1/@@images/fileDecision

      But of course a Supreme court could rule differently if the new law is worded differently, or even if the current judges think differently

    • Bearded Git 15.2
      31 October 2018 at 6:08 am

      All of the legal advice I have heard in the media (including a very clear opinion by Geddis) is that proportionality changes the moment JLR left the National Party, so in fact the WJL can be used.

      I think National has to wait 21 days from the moment he resigned from the party before he can be chucked out.

      • veutoviper 15.2.1
        31 October 2018 at 9:11 am

        The sentence on proportionality was clumsy, rushed wording on my part based on the Herald article, and also Ross’ letter. Mea cupla.

        It does not reflect my personal view and IMO the whole issue of proportionality under the revised waka jumping additions to the Electoral Act is far from clear and constitutional lawyers are going to have a ball with this issue and its consequences.

        Obviously no-one thought that the issue would arise quite so quickly (if at all) after the passing of the waka jumping amendments – ie IIRC the Royal Assent was only granted on 3 Oct and the changes then came into force from 4 Oct. (Checked – dates correct.)

        It really is quite ironic that the Ross situation has arisen so soon – and that it pertains to the National Party in view of their absolute opposition to the changes. If it were not for the nature of the other issues involved (donations, sexual relationships, claims of harassment etc) one could almost wonder whether it was/is a conspriacy … LOL.

        Newshub covered the whole situation last night in this article

        https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/10/jami-lee-ross-gears-up-for-return-to-parliament.amp.html

        Some of the related issues were also covered previously in these two articles prior to the waka jumping bill going through.

        https://www.lawsociety.org.nz/news-and-communications/news/waka-jumping-bill-raises-constitutional-concerns

        https://www.noted.co.nz/currently/politics/waka-jumping-bill-brouhaha-not-clear-cut/

        The real question is whether National will seek to invoke the waka jumping provisions. Jane Patterson suggested this morning on RNZ Morning Report that indications are that they are very loathe to invoke the waka jumping law and that they had not yet decided whether they would even accept Ross’ proxy vote. (No audio yet up on RNZ website.)

  16. Observer Tokoroa 16
    30 October 2018 at 7:25 pm

    On behalf of the Tax Payers

    It is amazing how Hateful the females of National are. They use every opportunity to display their viciousness.

    One of the most vile is Judith Collins who has been in Parliament for nearly forever. Earned a hell of a lot of easy money from the Tax Payers.

    But achieved absolutely nothing. ! Nothing.

    Just a grumpy old frumpy waste of time. The usual national aggressive female.

  17. eco maori 17
    31 October 2018 at 8:15 am

    Kia ora The Am Show I new that the media of the Papatuanuku were going to make a mountain out of a mole hill over the Earth Quake with the Prince and Duchess visiting
    thats what the media does I did not feel the Quake.
    That’s cool Duncan one must treat there guest with respect I wonder what they will name the new Kiwi chicks in Rotorua.
    More mana for Te tangata whenua culture O Aotearoa culture with the Prince & Duchess speaking te reo ka pai.
    Yes criminalizing abortion’s is a stupid .
    Loyd looks quite happy with the new NZ chipped passport that skirts around the ques .
    Amanda thats the way we cannot have people make it the noorm to be an ASS.
    The US mid turm elections most mid term elections swing against the ruling party only 2 times in 80 od years has this phenomenon not happened but not to worry the Demacrats are more intelegint than the gop party they can forecast the future and care about there effects on it.
    That’s a cool story of Mr Longman ABC reporter finding his grandparents photo in the New Zealand national library . Ka kite ano

  18. eco maori 18
    31 October 2018 at 8:23 am

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute

  19. Eco Maori 19
    31 October 2018 at 12:53 pm

    It’s cool having a vip escort were ever I go some ECO MAORI music for the minute https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=usN-pKfw6Q8

  20. eco maori 20
    31 October 2018 at 4:03 pm

    Eco Maori say if they stopped sending actors and paying them thousands to do the impossible they send in 1 a fortnight and stopped escorting me were ever I go they will save a few million instead of pissing money into the wind the sandflys have at least 3 cars following me as they are scared.
    Court staff at the Hastings and Napier district courts will walk off the job at 3pm today.

    The PSA this afternoon advised the Ministry of Justice of strike action to take place today at the Napier and Hastings District Courts for two hours from 3pm. ana to kai Ka kite ano Link below.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12151493

  21. eco maori 21
    31 October 2018 at 4:41 pm

    Here is reality for African American farmers being bullied and ripped off by European American’s Eco Maori Tau tokos /supports all minority’s who are being treated like dirt
    It’s not fair, not right’: how America treats its black farmers .
    I hope big changes are going to happen in America in the next few days you all have to get up and out and vote for you childrens and grandchildren future our future Kia kaha / stand strong. Ka kite ano link below.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/30/america-black-farmers-louisiana-sugarcane

  22. eco maori 22
    31 October 2018 at 5:48 pm

    Kia ora Te Karea Eco Maori doesn’t agree on war so I tau toko the protesters .
    The Prince and Duchess look good wearing te korowai It was good to here Chris words I watch him and his whano on Maori TV they make me proud of our culture Piripi.
    Lets hope that our goverment has made the correct move on the trade agreement with the rest of the TPP Talasa.
    I say all people should be aloud to vote even if you are in Prison.
    I have all ready had my say on the Ngapuhi Treaty settlement im not sure about the take .
    Ka kite ano Kia Kaha to the Maori All blacks

  23. eco maori 23
    31 October 2018 at 6:44 pm

    Kia ora Newshub Jo has been lucky to survive that avalanche all the best.
    Its good that Galloway is reviewing his call on that immigrant in jail.
    Rotorua had a bright beautiful day for the Royal couple visit and all the Maori culture people making us all proud of our culture and country.
    Samantha Its atrocious what man is doing to our wild life we do need a Global Pact to STOP the sharp decline in our wild life I intend to write a post on that subject tomorrow.
    That was a big show of mana in the protest against the defence arms display show in Palmerston North ka pai .
    Halloween is for Te Tamariki my children went with it in my time we only seen it on TV.
    Ka kite ano

  24. eco maori 24
    31 October 2018 at 7:18 pm

    The Crowd Goes Wild James & Mulls not to many cups of tea last nite with Grizz guys.
    Maa going to play for the Blues and Marty back for Otago there is a lot of people with good skills in the Kiwi .
    I ts cool that the coach of the Liverpool soccer teams coach Jurgen uses the mighty Haka some times ot motivate his player .
    I say Bryce is a unreliable tomato guys lol he is shinning bright hows Rodger .
    James thats cool that you acknowledge Prince Harry and Duchess Meghan visit to Rotorua .
    All the best to the Breakers fingers crossed.
    Ka kite ano P.S nice ties guy’s

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