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Open mike 31/07/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 31st, 2021 - 56 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

56 comments on “Open mike 31/07/2021 ”

  1. ianmac 1

    I don’t listen to Newstalk ZB for the same reason that I don’t walk barefoot across a lego-strewn lounge floor in the dark.

    So says James Elliott on Newsroom. A scathing review of the "I reckons" of Kate, Mike, Heather and Kerre. Such a good example of the depths some parts of the media sink to.


    • Pete 1.1

      Hosking's record is littered with such as, “This is why Gladys shines. She’s aspirational, she doesn’t panic, New South Wales doesn’t lock down at the drop of a hat or a single case.” Elliot has it as "red-carded by reality."

      The red card should go to whomever or whatever created the situation where masses have someone who has repeatedly spoken such drivel and made ludicrous lightweight pronouncements and judgements as some sort of guru.

      (How many hats have been dropped in NSW in thne past year?)

    • woodart 1.2

      newsdork and granny seem to have the same bunch of crappy "I reckon"s on tap.perhaps its time to be honest and stop calling these shills, journalists, and if granny and newsdork were serious about being in the news game, give equal time to other political shills from other parties.

    • Vivie 1.3

      Some of the incoherent, contradictory comments by Mike Hosking and many of his colleagues re COVID-19, Jacinda Ardern and the Government, are occasionally broadcast on RNZ's Mediawatch. It's very interesting to listen to the objective analysis by Mediawatch presenters. See RNZ's website for Mediawatch on 02.04.20 for a typical Hosking commentary, with several programmes since then also highlighting the lack of professionalism and integrity displayed by these broadcasters. Evidently this behaviour stems from their deep-seated resentment of the Government's highly effective COVID-19 management and Jacinda Ardern's popularity. Two Newstalk ZB hosts who state fact, give opinion as opinion, and are therefore worth listening to, are Tim Roxborogh and Marcus Lush.

  2. Sabine 2

    seriously anything is allowed right? boys will be boys? right? Oh and he is an All Black, so that is par for the course, right?


    After an All Black allegedly slapped and punched a woman in the face in a Dunedin bar he sent threatening messages to a third party saying "f… you b…. tell your friend to hide".
    The woman’s mother told the Otago Daily Times last night the family was frustrated 27-year-old Highlanders loose forward Shannon Frizell had “walked away with nothing more than a slap on the hand”.

    “Her trauma has been disregarded and his full actions have been dismissed,” the mother said.

    “The man put fear into my girl and that’s been the worse thing to see.”

    The alleged assault left the victim with a split lip and a broken tooth.

    For the document to be provided would be "singling Mr Frizell out", Stevens said, "discriminating against him because he is a high-profile member of the community as an All Black".

    The application is awaiting determination by a judge.

    Despite a potential lack of criminal consequences, Frizell has already been disciplined by New Zealand Rugby.

    After a misconduct hearing this week he was stood down for two matches.

    The first was served when he missed the Highlanders' clash against the Reds shortly after the incident.

    The second enforced absence will be more significant – the All Blacks' first Bledisloe Cup test in Auckland on August 7.

    Just another reason not to watch the All Blacks.

    Hm, I wonder if we could get violence against women into hte Hate Crime bill? but then if that happened, whom would these boys take their issues out on? Men?

    • aom 2.1

      Thanks for highlighting this Sabine.

      Where would the fucker be if he worked as a low paid labourer and how long would he be 'inside' if he wore a gang patch. Diversion should never be an option for perpetrators of one of the most despicable sorts of offending against the person that the country faces, despite the resourcing expended to change entrenched attitudes.

      • Descendant Of Smith 2.1.1

        Thought people would be happy that a Tongan got diversion. Maybe he stops being Tongan because he is an All Black.

        This approach is so much better than being sent to jail. We have enough people in jail.

        "It is targeted at reparation for the victim and rehabilitation for you. Your rehabilitation conditions might include things like going to an alcohol and drug programme or a violence-prevention course."

        • Molly

          "Thought people would be happy that a Tongan got diversion "

          Did you? Why?

          • Descendant Of Smith

            Because usually the complaining is about Maori and PI being imprisoned while Europeans are let off more lightly but you knew that.

            • Sabine

              the dude bashed a women in the face, breaking a tooth and causing a split in her lip. Her mother stated that 'he put fear in her daughter'.

              I am so very pleased that all you care about is that he got diversion as a tongan.

              No he got diversion because he is a body that plays rugby, and it is not the first time that a body that plays rugby and wear the all black jersey bashes/assaults/sexually assaults a women and and a two game suspension should teach him? right?

              Seriously, the fucker should have been given a prison term. But then so as long as he just bashes a women its ok? right? Cause bashing women is as Kiwi as is the All Black jersey. It goes hand in hand.

              As for his ethnicity, the fucker is a women basher. That is all he is.
              Maybe they should have sentenced the All Black jersey wearing women beater to pay a few hundred hours of therapy for her.

              But nah, diversion and a two weeks suspension.
              Fuck the all blacks. Fuck them. All of them.

              • The Al1en

                Just think, if you'd written "Fuck the Tongans. Fuck them. All of them", most people would have pounced, posting how you were crassly mass generalising to the point of wankery.

                Good job all the non woman beating rugby meatheads don't know how to use the internet. 😉

                • Descendant Of Smith

                  I've played a lot of sports and there has been a few violent thugs in all of them. It's not exclusive to rugby and nor is diversion exclusive to rugby players. I've done things other than sports and there has been violent thugs there as well.

                  Violence is endemic in New Zealand – always has been. Violence is a learned behaviour and in most cases can be unlearned – although it takes a bit of effort. It is a better option than jail.

                  One of the unattractive things about this site (well a certain cohort of people on this site) is the rabid like behaviour that emerges whenever rugby crops up. There are plenty of people who clearly have an issue with rugby. Whether it is a result bad experiences with rugby, drinking and violence, whether it is a legacy of the Springbok tour or whether you just prefer soccer was our national sport doesn't really matter to me.

                  The vast majority of rugby players are not violent and are lovely people who happen to like a particular game.

                  "I am so very pleased that all you care about is that he got diversion as a tongan."

                  Don't put words in my mouth I didn't say particularly when anyone who has followed my posts over the years would know I'm both anti-war and anti-violence. I'm also anti-imprisoning lots of the population and pro-rehabilitation.

                  I and other family members have also had a lot of experience as victims of violence.

                  At age 7 or 8 I came across W H Auden's September 1 1939 poem. This has always stuck with me. Experience tells me it is true in most cases. We need to learn to not do evil.

                  I and the public know
                  What all schoolchildren learn,
                  Those to whom evil is done
                  Do evil in return.

                  • Molly

                    You dog-whistle, double down with a false eqivalence and then come up with tripe like this:

                    "Violence is endemic in New Zealand – always has been. Violence is a learned behaviour and in most cases can be unlearned – although it takes a bit of effort. It is a better option than jail."

                    Your words imply that not only is violence common in NZ, its inherent and a slow and steady approach is all that's required, never mind the victims or the shameful statistics,

                    The case was adjourned for him to complete police diversion, meaning he will likely escape the May 9 incident without conviction.

                    This man punched a woman in a public place breaking a tooth, splitting her lip and then wrote threatening messages possibly once again on a public form, social media. A conviction with a sentence of anger management and reparation would be the bare minimum.

                    The comment by the judge indicating lenience because of his All Black position, raises ire from more than Sabine, mainly because we often hear similar justifications from the judiciary during violence or rape trials and many are tired of pointing out the inequity of this view. My partner and his rugby coaching workmate asking why is he still on the team?

                    The All Black's code of conduct must be as robust as a wet rag, which clearly inspired Sabine's tirade. And there is no indication from NZ Rugby or the All Blacks that even your minimum "bit of effort" is going to be made to address and change his behaviour so that he is not violent. The two game stand down alone is punitive (and pitiful) not rehabilitative.

                    "One of the unattractive things about this site (well a certain cohort of people on this site) is the rabid like behaviour that emerges whenever rugby crops up. There are plenty of people who clearly have an issue with rugby. "

                    I am often surprised by the sensitivity and vulnerability of many men when it comes to male on female violence. So far, its been – think of the Tongans, Maaori , Pacific Islanders, the over incarcerated, the lovely non violent rugby players and spectators. In fact, look anywhere but at a young woman's broken face and mental health and the underwhelming response of his employers and the pattern of leniency shown by the judiciary.

                    Look, another one for Poet's Corner, by Margaret Atwood:

                    you fit into me

                    like a hook into an eye

                    a fish hook

                    an open eye

                  • aom

                    What a load of fuckwittery DoS.

                    Purely and simply, this is about undeserved privilege that undermines all the work, time and effort that is being invested in trying to reverse the largely misogynistic violence that pervades our society.

                    You have sunk very low asserting, "The vast majority of rugby players are not violent and are lovely people who happen to like a particular game." This particular case isn't about a docile follower of a sport, race or any of your other notions. It is about the fact that the perpetrator of the violence is not having to face the legal consequences of his actions.

                    Many of those who work in the domestic violence field will tell you from experience that after Diversion, the odds are that he will do it again! If, in your opinion, voluntary counselling was appropriate, why didn't he take up the option before violently assaulting the woman. Awareness was supposed to have been raised and maintained for All Blacks since way back!

                  • Rosemary McDonald

                    I and the public know
                    What all schoolchildren learn,
                    Those to whom evil is done
                    Do evil in return.

                    Experience tells me it is true in most cases.

                    You're wrong. And Auden was wrong. Most survivors of childhood abuse do not go on to commit the same evils.

                    Most members of groups subjected to violence (such as women) do not commit similar on others.

                    Some do. But by no means are they in the majority.

                    Face it. Some folks are just violent arseholes with an overweening sense of their own importance.

                    • Descendant Of Smith

                      Nah what's true is most people who are violent experienced violence when young. With only a few exceptions violence doesn't come out of a vacuum. You also need to be careful about when working at the hard end of domestic violence that you only see the failures of things like diversion and counselling and not the successes.

                      What you implying is that these things are a waste of time. There is a lot of people who move on successfully after this type of intervention. Others have moved on via religion and so on. Imprisonment is in itself a form of violence – our high rates of imprisonment do not do us any favours.

                      The lock em up mentality has resulted in more violence to people as the recent enquiry shows. Do you not think we can do better than locking people up?

                      Reducing imprisonment rates, and particularly for Maori and polynesian, is something this government wants to achieve. This was once a liberal approach. Seems the liberals here are really no different from the fascists.

                      And yeah he is facing the legal consequences of his actions. Diversion is one of those legal consequences – it is just not the one that you favour.

                      "Your words imply that not only is violence common in NZ"

                      Yes it is and always has been. Much of it wasn't illegal either until the 70's.

                      "a slow and steady approach is all that's required"

                      Nope never said that was all that was required. But it will take generations to resolve.

                      "never mind the victims"

                      Nope never said that.

                      "shameful statistics"

                      Make your mind up – is it endemic or not. I'm quite certain it is endemic – regular and common and quite often intergenerational.

                  • Molly

                    I didn't advocate for incarceration, that's a strawman.

                    But there you go, cherry pick and remove context and don't answer the difficult question about how systematic patterns partly sanction the trivialisation of harm.

                    "Nope never said that was all that was required. But it will take generations to resolve. "

                    Maybe not even then given our glacial progress so far.

                    ""never mind the victims"

                    Nope never said that."

                    Don't put quotes if you are paraphrasing, and you are right.

                    You didn't explicitly say that, and neither did I.

                    I made an inference from the fact you didn't mention her at all in your original comment, which has been reinforced by that same omission in all your comments in this thread so far.

                    “Make your mind up – is it endemic or not. I’m quite certain it is endemic – regular and common and quite often intergenerational.”

                    Of course violence is a problem. Our efforts to address it need to be more effective. Appropriate punishments and rehabilitation would be a start. Sports player or not.

                    Surely there are rugby players waiting for a chance where the All Blacks Code of Conduct forbade this type of conduct.

                    Are you saying the pool is that small?

                    • Descendant Of Smith

                      You hadn't even commented when I first commented.

                      aom was the one who raised the question of incarceration. It the issue of incarceration vs diversion that I was originally responding to.

                      Your inference about never mind the victim is very wrong and actually most commentators haven't mentioned the victim. Nearly all the posts are focused on the offender. Does that mean they don't care about the victim either? I fully understand the harm done to victims – I live with it every day and have done for many years. The young woman involved will need lots of help and support and for many the fear never really goes away.

                      I've been consistent about alternatives to imprisonment for well over 30 years now.

                      I also hadn't commented on the rugby union stance either. I understood that is just an interim response. I'm not sure what their final decision will be. I have no problem at all if he never plays for the All Blacks again. Other people lose their jobs for being violent.

                    • Molly []

                      So, not commenting on the victim, nor replying to me in your reply to me, nor commenting on the rugby union…

                      Were you just on this thread to promote rugby, reiterate your 30 year stance against overincarceration, tell us violence is a difficult problem, and just to top it off, expose a small modicum of white fragility in your initial comment? If so, well done.

                    • Molly []

                      So, not commenting on the victim, nor replying to me in your reply, nor commenting on the rugby union until just now.

                      Were you just on this thread to promote rugby, reiterate your 30 year stance against overincarceration, tell us violence is a difficult problem, and just to top it off, expose a small modicum of white fragility in your initial comment? If so, well done.

  3. Anker 3


    a must read for people on this site who think the Trans ideology will have no impact on women and their rights to assert that biology matters.

    shame on the Sydney Council

    • Forget now 3.1

      There's certainly some loaded language in that link of yours; Anker. I wonder just how "EXPOSED" the "disgraceful voting" can be when it has indeed been more than "barely touched {by} mainstream media". For example (from a week back):

      Equality Australia CEO Anna Brown said it was the responsibility of elected officials to ensure that publicly owned resources were used to support organisations that didn’t discriminate.

      “This is not a matter of academic debate,” Ms Brown said.

      “Efforts … to wind back the hard-fought rights of transgender women have very real impacts on lives of trans and gender diverse members of our community, who face severe mental health challenges as the result of the marginalisation and discrimination they experience on a day-to-day basis.”…

      In a letter dated 24 July 2020, the City’s Manager of Social Programs and Services, Kirsten Woodward, wrote to the clinic noting the City’s ethics policy does not support “any activities or entities” that “discriminate… on the basis of race, religion or sex in employment, marketing or advertising practices or contribute to the inhibition of human rights generally”.

      The clinic was in contravention of this requirement, Ms Woodward wrote, due to its affiliation with the Women’s Sex Based Rights movement, and because of “certain published materials and events” which “promote an agenda which … has the potential for generating discrimination and negative attitudes towards the transgender members of our community”.

      The City asked the FLC to remove the offending materials from its website but the clinic refused…

      This decision was approved at a City of Sydney Council meeting on June 21 this year.

      Lord Mayor Clover Moore said the City stood with the trans community against “all forms of exclusion”.

      “Our grants and properties are in high demand and our residents and rate payers expect they be offered to people and organisations who provide community benefit and that don’t conflict with our values,” she said.


      …the City’s letter of 16 June 2021 notifying you that FLC has been rated “C” in accordance with the City’s annual review process, due to a failure to satisfactorily meet the general performance criteria in the Licence over the preceding twelve month period. On Monday 28 June 2021, the recommended rating under the Accommodation Grants Program was endorsed by Council.

      We now notify you that in accordance with: 1. clause 2.1(e) of the Licence,

      the City is reducing FLC’s subsidy to 0% effective 19 August 2021; and 2. clause 2.1(h) of the Licence,

      the City is terminating the Licence. The effective date of termination will be 19 AUGUST 2021.


      From the evidence, it seems that it was really the FLC who; despite being given multiple chances since last year, chose to bet on being able to stare down the Sydney mayor (which doesn't say much for the quality of their legal advice). They could have toned down the rhetoric and still be operating. Expecting a city to fund those determined to exclude members of that city from social participation seems misguided.

      Still, August 19th is the eviction date. I imagine there will be a bit of MSM coverage around then. Hope that the Sydney-side COVID infection rate has dropped if FLC are planning sit-ins or other protest action.

      • Molly 3.1.1

        If you are going to post on this topic, then at least have the courtesy to link to source, and provide the original content rather than someone's curated version of it. We should insist of more intellectual integrity in this important matter.

        For those who wish to be better informed on this particular topic:

        Here is the website for Feminist Legal Clinic. Look around and see whether their discussion of the impact of radical transactivism on womens rights is beyond the pale, rather than an honest assessment.

        Here is their response letter to the Sydney Council, (rather than a pointless link to the eviction letter as evidence of process, rather than validation of eviction.)

        And here the link to the original 'offending' paper which was a submission made to government on proposed law changes: Impacts of Transactivism on the Human Rights of Women and Girls

        Read and be informed about what this news item is really about, and ask yourself this question. If a pro-bono Feminist Legal Clinic cannot make a submission to government regarding proposed law changes that look like they will impact on those that access their services without having their funding or grant criteria impacted on, – where is the space left for this type of gender critical thinking to be expressed?

      • Molly 3.1.2

        Apologies. You have posted to the Feminist Legal Clinic, My error.

        I think the original paper is important to the issue, though.

    • francesca 3.2

      Really Anker, this is horrifying .

      This is exactly the same as the Chinese Cultural revolution and the Salem witch trials , nuttiness through and through , punishment for "wrong think" and dissenting the new orthodoxy.An orthodoxy built on ignorance,hubristic academia,illogical magical thinking.

      It's got to the point where lesbians are being trashed and called transphobic for not fancying transwomen


      I can't help feeling some of these transwomen activists still have a goodly portion of male thinking going on in their supposedly woman brains

    • Drowsy M. Kram 3.3

      The pro bono legal service provides critical help to some of the city’s most disadvantaged women, many of whom are victims of abuse, poor, disabled, Indigenous, lesbian, Muslim and from other marginalised groups, who require woman-centred support.

      This decision (to revoke the Sydney Feminist Legal Clinic’s grant and terminate its tenancy) is regrettable, and seems odd. Given that trans men (biological females) are on the receiving end of considerable violence, sexism and discrimination, e.g. in health, accommodation and employment, surely it would have been simple enough for the FLC to point to the trans men (females) that they have helped?

      Imho it should be possible for feminist-based clinics to at least partially immunise themselves against these woke attacks by making it clear that their services are available to trans men (females). It doesn't matter if the number of trans men who avail themselves of these services is small – it's the principle that counts.

      My confusion at this moment is about whether there is any overlap between "women and girls" and 'transgender people', or whether (in the minds of SUFW supporters) one simply can't be considered a woman if one is trans, i.e. trans women certainly aren't women (because they're biological men), and neither are trans men (because, despite being female, they identify as men) – i.e. it's (obviously) possible to be trans or cis and be female/male, but it's impossible to be trans and a woman/man; those terms are reserved for cisgender ('normal') people. Have I got that right?

      Can transgender people even be feminists – how would that work? Too weird!

      • Sabine 3.3.1

        this is not about Transmen.

        This is about Transwomen wanting access to spaces that are female body centric.

        And this is lawful, i might add.

        Essentially men just shut down a clinic for women under the pretense of 'transwomens rights'.

        • Anker

          100% Sabine.

          If Trans women need legal support and I am sure they do, why didn't the Sydney Council assist them to set up their own legal service?

          This shutting down of the legal centre is not about asssisting transwomen get the help they need, which of course is a good idea. Its about shutting down and controlling women.

          I am glad the women in this legal clinic stuck to their guns.

          This is just around the corner for NZ.

          Again where are all the progressive liberal men who have claimed to care about womens rights over the years. With a few exceptions on this site, the silence is deafening.

      • weka 3.3.2

        I rarely come across GCF who believe that transmen aren't women and should be excluded from women's space/services/rights. So I don't think you've got that right there.

        As for placating gender rights activists by FLC saying that they provide services to trans men i.e. women, this would be considered highly transphobic (TMAM). And, the implication is that TA aren't W, so doubly transphobic. Everyone is pressured to adopt this belief system and if you don't, your funding will be cut/you will be cancelled irrespective of the good you do.

        My confusion at this moment is about whether there is any overlap between "women and girls" and 'transgender people'

        If you watch new reporting you will see that many times MSM uses 'transgender' when they actually mean 'transwoman'. Alot of gender vs sex sports coverage does that. I'm not sure if it's because reporters/editors just aren't used to writing about trans/gender/GCF issues yet (it is complex), or if it's that they have simply bought into the GCF vs all trans people bullshit.

      • Molly 3.3.3

        OK. Women providing pro-bono services to victims of domestic violence, have to not only continue to do that, they have to virtue signal appropriately that transmen will have access to their services so that they will be listened to in regards to their views on the infringements of Radical Transactivism on their work and their clients.

        I've noticed that most (if not all) of the women who are raising legitimate concerns about proposed changes to the law regarding gender identity and self-id, are very careful to express their support of transgender people. They will often preface or conclude comments with an affirmation that their concerns, in no way, are intended to harm the transgender community. They will then take time to read through, often ill written comments and then respond to the points made in them, in an effort to get a good faith discussion going.

        However, responses in return, often show the the commentator has not even bothered reading the whole comment, investigated for themselves what has been posted, and been replied to with the same care and effort to have a real discussion. More tellingly, I cannot recall seeing a comment that confirmed the rights of women, before putting the boot in.

        "My confusion at this moment is about whether there is any overlap between "women and girls" and 'transgender people', or whether (in the minds of SUFW supporters) one simply can't be considered a woman if one is trans, i.e. trans women certainly aren't women (because they're biological men), and neither are trans men (because, despite being female, they identify as men) – i.e. it's (obviously) possible to be trans or cis and be female/male, but it's impossible to be trans and a woman/man; those terms are reserved for cisgender ('normal') people. Have I got that right?"

        Your confusion arrives from your inability to read, and think for yourself. Many commentators here have explained the situation, but you seem to be enjoying playing confused or uncomprehending. More bad faith, but seemingly par for the course in this discussion.

        • Drowsy M. Kram

          Your confusion arrives from your inability to read, and think for yourself.

          Thanks Molly, although I did manage to read your comment – maybe someone will tell me what to think about it.

          Fwiw, comments on this site are helping me to form an opinion on “the situation“; I’ve also been guided by recent experiences of some fairly close family members.

          • Molly

            Before you go back to sleep, have a read of the submission paper and see whether you are outraged by the transphobia shown in it. I couldn't see it, but then I rely on evidence as well as rather close family members.

            Imho it should be possible for transgender activists to at least partially immunise themselves against these attacks by making it clear that their support is also available to women (females) in regards to their rights. It doesn't matter if the number of women whose rights are protected is small (except it really does) – it's the principle that counts.

            (Also noted: Your avoidance of any confirmation of the rights of women and children to be protected. You can't say you weren't asked, and so your position on that is clear.)

            • Drowsy M. Kram

              Thanks again Molly – fwiw I'm not surprised or outraged by transphobia (maybe I should be?) – just trying to understand it.

              I’ve two teenage nieces (not sure that's an appropriate term) who now identify strongly as male, and although it has been difficult for me (as someone who can't think for themselves) to be supportive and remember to use adjusted names and gender pronouns, I reckon "the situation" is harder for them.

              • Sabine

                This is a lovely write by a person who was born female, transitioned to male and is very honest about the process involved. Maybe the feeling strongly male is perfectly ok within a female body. Maybe women should be allowed to feel strongly male. Maybe the dainty fairy princess is not all to that thing that up until now we felt comfortable calling a women.


                Not everything is 'transphobia', but a lot of the 'transphobia' yellers are positively anti 'female body centred spaces'.

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  Thanks for that Sabine – 'butch' might suit the oldest. Whatever their (informed, please 'God') choices, I just want them to be happy.

                  My worry stems from the fact that not all the people who just wanted me to be happy actually contributed to my happiness, despite their good intentions. I want my nieces (niblings?) to be happy more often than not, and I want to make a positive contribution to their happiness.

                  Thanks again for the "When we were butches" link; will try to tread carefully.

                  • Sabine

                    I think that is all we are asking for, that people thread lightely, that decisions are being made informed, and that above all we can all be what we would like to be and not just some.

                    Maybe give this article to your nieces for a read. It might help them understand a few issues as well.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      Thanks for the advice Sabine – the oldest (nearly 16) is a voracious reader and so may have seen it. She (bugger; 'He') says it's important to understand other points of view.

                      I do sometimes try to gently dissuade him from adopting what seems to me to be a 'them and us' PoV, but it's at least partly informed by his own experiences so I don't want to push it.

                      I'm most concerned that one or both of them might 'jump the gun' on hormone treatments (or worse, surgery), and a couple of months ago I did (with the agreement of his mother) email the eldest this link:

                      Ellie and Nele: From she to he – and back to she again

                      Unfortunately it was not well received (apparently an enthusiasm for understanding other points of view of only goes so far), and so I have some bridge mending to do, and probably won't be going down the same path again anytime soon. Ah well, water under the bridge.

                    • Sabine

                      Ask them why they feel that they can't feel 'manly' as a women or in a female body?

                      Ask them what they believe will be different? Not in a judgy tone or such, but rather with interest.

                      Also read this womens twitter account. Better even watch her pinned tweet. She is funny, well spoken etc.


                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      Thanks again Sabine, might try those questions, but will have to be careful not to come across as wanting to seed doubts in their 'trans identity' and promote my own preferences – that's already proven counter-productive with the older (well-read) nibling.

                      Maybe I'll have to accept that I won't get my way – not that it's mine to get in the first place. But maybe I'll gain a better understanding, so yes, will try the inquisitive (just curious/interested) approach, if I can get past their ‘this is who I want to be; you can’t change me‘ hostility!

              • Molly

                You are communicating with a woman who in the last 35 years of her 54 year life has not bothered getting a haircut, shaved body parts that didn't need shaving, not worn makeup and been comfortable in wearing clothes that in no way could be described as feminine. I thank god for the gender critical feminists decades past who critiqued gender imposed roles based on biological sex, and fought for the right of self-expression regardless. The benefit of this kind of critique is shared with men fighting against stereotypes.

                The conversation is not that transpeople should not be included in a protected rights category. It is partly that given the ability of many to self-id, how do we word legislation that addresses this in such a way that hard fought for women's rights are not imposed upon or dismantled?

                When concerns are raised, they should be considered – and solutions found. But the current reaction seems to be to just shut the whole conversation down.

                As well as that, there are compelling reasons that I would prefer both biological sex and gender identity to be recorded on a birth certificate. Primarily to recognise that there are instances where biological sex is important in regards to medical treatment and statistics gathering.

                There have been studies that have shown that pharmaceutical doses and drugs that have passed trials for safety, have often not been tested with regard to the difference between the sexes, and most often, have harmed women patients who receive them. Transgender people who are undergoing hormonal or other treatment would also be best served with this kind of data inclusion, as their medications might interact with drugs or doses in unexpected ways.

                Collection of the pattern of domestic (and other violence) would have clearer statistics for men, women and transgender if both biological sex and gender identity is recorded.

                In terms of sports, there are biological and physiological reasons why we had women's sports in the first place. These reasons haven't disappeared just because we wish to support the trans community. I would support the inclusion of another category to both acknowledge those differences and allow the transcommunity to compete as they wish.

                "I’ve two teenage nieces (not sure that's an appropriate term) who now identify strongly as male, and although it has been difficult for me (as someone who can't think for themselves) to be supportive and remember to use adjusted names and gender pronouns, I reckon "the situation" is harder for them."

                Given the situation that teenage girls are facing today – as partly referenced by the Christchurch High School survey, and the constant pounding of judgement that many are exposed to on social media, I think that I would have a strong likelihood to be joining them, if I was that age today. Luckily, I've been able to live a life of non-conformation while still being comfortable as a female. As someone currently undergoing a suppression of hormone treatment for medical reasons, I would hate to think of young healthy bodies undergoing such treatment, given the fact that long term studies on their use on pre-pubescent bodies have not been undertaken.

                I commend you for your support of your relatives, and just ask that you consider how legislation can be best written so that they – and the trans community they are a part of – can be served without imposition on the rights of women and children.

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  I commend you for your support of your relatives, and just ask that you consider how legislation can be best written so that they – and the trans community they are a part of – can be served without imposition on the rights of women and children.

                  Regarding "…without imposition on the rights of women and children", I can understand concerns about 'the thin end of the wedge' and erosion of rights. Many men, and women, had similar concerns and reservations about women's suffrage and other emancipation movements.

                  I see the "trans community" as consisting of women, men and (possibly) children. I would prefer that 'trans identity' was not a barrier to being a generally accepted and respected element of the wider community, but acknowledge that some find the concept of 'trans identity' difficult to handle (I know I do), so acceptance and respect will take time. I hope we all get there eventually, especially if one or both of my niblings chooses trans.

                  • Molly

                    Thanks, Drowsy for your response,

                    However, you reference to 'the thin end of the wedge' makes amorphous the very specific and concrete concerns that have been raised. It would be great if you could comment on possible resolutions for those.

                    "I would prefer that 'trans identity' was not a barrier to being a generally accepted and respected element of the wider community, but acknowledge that some find the concept of 'trans identity' difficult to cope with"

                    I really don't think I have that acceptance issue, and because I don't, I expect the adults in the trans community to be capable of having a conversation so we can collectively come up with resolutions for the very real impact current proposals may have to women and girls (and in some cases the well-being of members of their own community).

                    The No Debate stance makes this very difficult.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      I really don't think I have that acceptance issue…

                      I envy you and wish I could say the same. Sadly, on those rare occasions when I'm around (obviously) trans adults, I just feel ill at ease and often find myself wishing either I or they weren't there.

                      Of course I do my best to conceal those feelings, but do need to work on my transphobia, and I suppose the transgender leanings of two of my niblings might help me with that. But still can't shake the idea that it would be best for everyone if things went back to the way they were – i.e. normal.

                      The amount of debate on NZ social and other media over “the situation” suggests to me that those prompting a “No Debate stance” have perhaps been only partially successful. And thank goodness "The No debate stance" isn't inhibiting our discussion, but it's certainly evident in the older nibling at the moment – like walking on eggshells. Sad to say I was actually kinda grateful for some of the distancing imposed by last year's lockdowns.

                    • Molly

                      @ Drowsy. Just finished watching the link Sabine posted (45 min).

                      When you have time, you may find it of value. All the best, apologies for the slipping into snark earlier.

  4. weka 4

    How much of the Japan covid spike is a result of the Olympics?

  5. georgecom 5

    Anyone who sees a reasonable amount of US reality based made tv will have heard the comment "thank you for your service" when someone in the armed forces is being spoken to. When it becomes known they served in the armed forces the comment "thank you for your service" is often made. There are justified times for war, times when national security must be maintained and important peace keeping work around the globe. People serving in those theatres do put their lives on the line and many suffer the effects. They probably deserve thanks for that.

    This is contrasted to wars decided by some ass hole for dubious reasons which forsake human life for some dubious gain, sometimes personal ass hole gain. The types of war where politicians have to tell lies and cover the truth in an attempt to justify it. The 2 Iraq wars for example, supporting the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, supporting the Contras in Nicaragua etc. Vietnam where the assholes didn't have their sons dying but some poor working class sod who got drafted and shipped over.

    I do not think however I have ever heard someone on US television talking to a Nurse or a Firefighter or a paramedic and immediately upon hearing their occupation states "thank you for your service". Thank you for being their at the scene of an accident keeping us alive, thank you for nursing me back to health and allowing me to live a good life, thank you for risking life and limb to put out that chemical fire or high rise fire". That absence speaks volumes to me. What a shame.

    • woodart 5.1

      whats even more hypocrital in this is how badly ex-servicepeople are treated in the states. in this day of a volunteer services, the majority of american servicepeople come from poor and disadvantaged(i.e. either black city dwellers or poor white trash from the sticks) ,and after service, many of them are tipped back into the community with a raging oxyco-don habit, and very little backup…so ,basically its, "thank you for your service, take your drug habit and phuck off".

  6. Alan 6

    Roy Morgan?

    • mac1 6.1

      Read it. Your comments are?

      National 29% ACT 13% Māori 2%

      Labour 39% Greens 10%

      49% plays 44%.

      Women prefer Labour/Greens. ACT highest ever poll for them. Opportunity Party has 3%.

      Expect government to poll better as Olympic results and Rugby tests boost voter feelings of wellbeing, and Covid results continue to back up the government's strategy.

      • bwaghorn 6.1.1

        That's a fucking scary poll , imagine if act drag a collins lead national party over the line, !!!

        They'll privatise ev6they can and finish off what douglas and ruthless ruth started

      • Robert Guyton 6.1.2

        Maori will never again go with the colonist-loving Right (you heard it first here 🙂

        • mac1

          Roy Morgan put the Māori party in as an opposition party as that is where they sit at the moment. I'd say you were right about where they'd prefer to be, but as a party not so much based on Left-Right politics, even though most Māori would be on the left of that spectrum, they would take the opportunity as did Winston and NZF to be in government with either.

          Labour is ten points ahead of National and the Greens have limited options. I'd say ACT will fancy their chances as a party of the Right and supplant National there leaving National to foot it out with Labour, NZF, Opportunity and all for the centre. MMP certainly has changed our politics, as Bob Jones recently wrote. He's predicting/hoping for a change of government though not a National supporter himself.

          But the economy is doing well, Covid is at bay, and some meaningful changes are afoot. The fat lady has not yet sung as we are in mid- second act, with the chorus in full voice behind the principals and the villains skulking in whatever shadows the curtains will afford them……….

  7. KSaysHi 7

    Curious about what was in the confidential contract? Obviously not the NZ contract but this is what we can expect according to Information security expert Ehden Biber

    – the contract was one sided (predictable)

    – the contract states that it superceeds the laws of the country

    Then this gem (quotes are from the commentary of the contract, not what was actually written), unlimited liability for the country:

    “Pfizer is making sure the country will pay for everything: ‘Costs and expenses, including… fees and disbursements of counsel, incurred by the Indemnitee(s) in connection with any Indemnified Claim shall be reimbursed on a quarterly basis by Purchaser’ ”

    “The Purchaser waives any right for immunity, it give up any law that might cap the obligation to pay damages to Pfizer. Comment: The court in New York has the capacity to hold international assets of a country if the country failed the contract.”


    Site is Catholic based, but seems reputable. Note there is a petition asking that the vaccine not be made mandatory, this is because it uses aborted fetal cells in the development, hence a faith based issue.

    • Anne 7.1

      You have come up with supposed "reputable" sites before which were easily debunked. I suspect this is another one.

      Oh look… first thing I see at top of link:

      LifeSiteNews has been permanently banned on YouTube.

      You really are a gullible sort KsaysHi.

    • Rosemary McDonald 7.2

      I shy away a little from faith-based anything, but fortunately Lifesite isn't the only news outlet covering these contracts Pfizer has bullied developing nations into signing.

      A simple google search "Dominican republic Pfizer contract" produces a Holy Grail of articles exposing Pfizer's bully boy tactics and unreasonable and unethical demands when it comes to their 'negotiations' with poorer countries.

      Plucking one of many, a Business Insurance site, you follow the links to the TBIJ article "Vaccine contract forces a government to pay…"

      …during vaccine negotiations with Latin American governments Pfizer had asked for indemnity that went far beyond the demands of the other vaccine manufacturers.

      Most governments are offering indemnity – protection against legal liability – to the vaccine manufacturers supplying their doses. This means that a citizen who suffers an adverse effect after being vaccinated can file a claim against the manufacturer, but, if successful, the government would pay the compensation.

      However, Pfizer wanted additional protections, meaning that the company would not have to pay up itself if held liable for rare adverse effects or its own acts of negligence, fraud or malice: the government would pay its costs instead.

      Pfizer also asked Brazil and Argentina to put up sovereign assets, which might include embassy buildings or military bases, as collateral against the cost of future legal cases.

      It is unbelievable that there are adults wandering around thinking that somehow these pharmaceutical manufacturers are producing these Warp Speed (Trump..the gift that keeps on giving wink) vaccines out of the goodness of their hearts and should therefore be immune to scrutiny and perhaps criticism.

      And for those who insist that we only refer to safe and reliable MSM news sites, everyone's favourite daily published this, just the other day.

      Strong sales of its Covid-19 vaccine and other medicines helped Pfizer nearly double its second-quarter revenue and boost its profit an impressive 59 per cent, beating Wall Street expectations and leading the drug giant to sharply hike its 2021 sales and profit forecasts.

      Amid the surging coronavirus pandemic, the Covid-19 vaccine became Pfizer's top seller, bringing in nearly half its revenue — US$7.84 billion (NZ$11.27b) from direct sales and revenue split with its partner, Germany's BioNTech.

      Pfizer now anticipates revenue from the two-dose vaccine this year to reach US$33.5b for the 2.1 billion doses it's contracted to provide by year-end. That doesn't include a contract struck last week to provide an additional 200 million doses to the US.

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