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Open mike 31/08/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 31st, 2020 - 176 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

176 comments on “Open mike 31/08/2020 ”

  1. Muttonbird 1

    You can stick people into two groups. Those who comply and those don't. Those who comply do so for their own safety and the safety of others. They do so for the greater collective good. Those who don't don't comply feel they themselves are the most important unit and will break any rule which suggests otherwise. These people are from the political right.

    • Grafton Gully 1.1

      Because SARS – CoV 2 favours the non-complying group I comply. I wear a mask, wash my hands, physically distance and avoid crowds, try to stay as healthy as I can – easier for some than others.

      "This metasynthesis provides among the most compelling evidence to date that personality predicts overall health and well-being."


    • weka 1.2

      Plenty of people that would otherwise be progressive who aren't following the rules. We ignore this and make it a partisan issue at out peril.

      • Sacha 1.2.1

        Be interesting to hear the range of reasons why. Presumably our media will vox pop that for us.

        • weka

          In the past weeks own south people seem pretty relaxed about L2, basically not really doing much. More Q codes visible, some manual lists to sign, signs telling people to keep their distance, but while people are aware I guess, seems like it's a bit lax. Presumably because most people think there's no covid here. I assume people are allowed to leave Auckland now so hopefully that perception will change.

          There's also the anti-authoritarian crowd.

  2. millsy 2

    Anyone know why 900 state houses in Porirua were handed over to iwi, even though the government promised to put an end to privatisation of state housing?

    Ref: https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/122560292/ngti-toa-will-take-its-land-back-and-bring-its-people-home-iwi-ceo-says

    • Shanreagh 2.1

      Probably part of a Treaty of Waitangi settlement and I would not call handing these houses over to Iwi to administer privatisation. Meeting of a treaty settlement is paramount I would have thought. What owners do then is the same as any other owner whose land has been taken. Some handing back is subject to restrictions but I am not sure if this part of the Treaty claim was.

      I am looking forward to the time when Paraparaumu airport, taken for Defence purposes around the time of WW2 and the Iwi never compensated, is handed back.

    • weka 2.2

      Iwi aren't private businesses, they're Treaty partners with the Crown.

      • joe90 2.2.1

        Any shareholder owned organisation that's accumulating and reinvesting virtually all returns from invested settlement assets is by definition a private business.

        • weka

          Iwi have businesses (like the government), but they're not businesses. The Pākehā system forced Māori to adopt Iwi legal structures that suited Pākehā, but Iwi themselves predate any modern concept of business by a long time.

        • Shanreagh

          And does or should this overly technical approach by Joe90 override the fact that these settlements endeavour to bring the Iwi into a situation that they should have been had the Treaty of Waitangi breach not occurred.

          I think not.

          As Weka has said these are our Treaty partners, they have been badly treated in cases where Maori land has been taken for Public Works such as housing, roads, schools etc etc. and most have chosen a range or mix of former crown assets and $$$ to settle their grievances. It is mean-spirited not to allow Iwi to conduct their own commercial operations. Some of these ops have meant that Iwi does the managing eg Ngai Tahu and others the managing has been done by the former Govt dept.

          If land owned by the Crown is not going to be in the mix, and Iwi want productive land as part of their settlement then the Treaty Settlements will stall big time.

          I think to define the use of assets returned under Treaty settlements as private business is simplistic. To trammel the return of assets to Iwi with strictures on future use risks setting up yet another ToW claim. There are crown assets such as particular reserves that are not available for sale that are passed over to Iwi control.

          Possibly it is a lack of knowledge about what the meaning of being a treaty partner is that has led to these mystifying picky comments

          I would suggest that readers look at some of these settlements

          Ngati Toa's is here


          It is instructive to read some of the happenings and the beautiful language that has been used in these settlement documents


          Some of us who were around in Govt Depts when the full force of the Rogernomics was upon us will recall that it was only the intervention of our Treaty partner, by and through the NZ Maori Council taking Court cases, that some of the worst land related affects such as the proposal to sell the land under the trees as well as the forest crops were tossed out. Ordinary NZers had no ability to seek any stop to the tidal wave of Rogernomics that was going on. There were several cases other than the Forestry one where they over turned what had been proposed. Our Treaty partners have stepped up many times over the years since 1840, and it behoves us to treat their claims in a generous and fair-spirited way.

  3. Robert Guyton 3

    MP Jami-Lee Ross referred to committee over anti-vaccination video.


    "The Speaker has referred independent MP Jami-Lee Ross to the Privileges Committee for misusing edited parliamentary TV video for political ads.

    "Trevor Mallard ordered the anti-vaccination video – posted by Ross's party and that of Billy Te Kahika's NZ Public Party – to be removed from social media, but that's been met with a blunt refusal.

    Parliamentary footage of an exchange between government minister Megan Woods and National's Erica Stanford was edited for use in the political ad, posted on several sites."

    • RedBaronCV 3.1

      Yeah I wonder why we can't force the main internet players twitter facebook etc to have a "local office" so that when something like this comes along they can easily be contacted so that at the very least it can be labeled "false" or "edited"or taken down fast rather than going through some offshore process.

  4. Macro 4

    Just heard this ad on RNZ,

    'Digital Exclusion' on RNZ Spotify…. Or wherever you get you podcast.


      • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1

        Yes, it is certainly time for government to declare that being connected is a right and then ensure that the means exist for people to fulfil that right without being ripped off by private enterprise.

        In other words, time to re-nationalise telecommunications and to produce capable phones and PCs here in NZ also by a government owned production process.

    • RedBaronCV 4.2

      This is a very real problem with both government and private sector. There are whole communities that are effectively excluded.

      I've stayed offline because I can't be bothered with the being hacked bit plus I have the ability to complain loudly – which not everyone has.

      The government needs to sort its act out for starters. Any government fee or charge should be capable of being paid on the ground with no extra charge or fee payable – that is far from the current situation. Nor should costs and access be pushed sideways onto community organisations libraries funded by ratepayers etc.

      There is also the major secondary discrimination- there are government jobs that cannot be applied for unless a real me id is used. Citizen tracking by default.

      • greywarshark 4.2.1

        There is a major and obvious question here, so obvious that nobody has thought to ask it. Did the citizens get asked if they agreed to have government retreat from face to face dealings, to only communicating with citizens through machines? Was it right that such swingeing changes were enabled by a handful of anarchists? Were taxpayers advised that lower taxes meant limited human input into dealing with citizens?

        Were people enabled to discuss the result of withdrawal of government from the ordering of people's lives and that elections and ministers in government were becoming less and less true agents of the people? Perhaps if there wasn't so much hype about how marvellous it is, and truthfulness instead of truthiness about this bloody technological takeover and its constant expansion with obsolescence designed in, people might see things as they are, not rosy at all.

        Addlepated* is a great word for the quandary we are in. Google quickly finds all I need to know to describe the poor state we and our state are in. I don't think that is quixotic (extremely idealistic; unrealistic and impractical.)

        * In Middle English an adel eye was a putrid egg. The stench of such an egg apparently affected the minds of some witty thinkers, who hatched a comparison between the diminished, unsound quality of an adel eye (or addle egg as it came to be called in modern English) and an empty, confused head—or pate. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/addlepated

        I want government back – with real people, and all channels open to all citizens., on-line plus traditional. I think that we need to reorganise Parliament though, and all people who work for government have to have a skill or profession that they have worked at adequately for five years before applying for government jobs.

        • sumsuch

          Thankee for addlepated. 'Fun with words' is our non-lasting legacy. 10,000 of agriculture and 270 of industry.

  5. tc 5

    JLR openly goes the false news route, gets caught and claims he's being 'censored' in an election campaign.

    The apple doesn't fall far from the dirty politics tree does it.

  6. ScottGN 6

    @millsy 2 (reply not working etc, etc)

    Did you read the article? The land the houses are on are part of a treaty settlement that was concluded in 2014.

  7. FAB mouse 7

    Corin Dan this morning commenting (to Phil Goff I think) that the poor messaging that asked South and West Aucklanders to get tested "muddied the waters" on the country's response and then goes on to ask questions that invite others to muddy the messaging even further.

    The PM on TVNZ this morning sensibly sidestepped a question about opening the borders because of "business". If she had addressed it, anything she said would be used to muddy the country's response at the moment. The best response for the economy is a health response. What is the sharemarket doing at the moment? Is the MSM banging on about it?

  8. Treetop 8

    @ Muttonbird 1

    Those who are not complying with wearing a mask the reasons why not would need to be known. Wise to wear a mask and not a team player if not wearing a mask.

    I have a goal of making 500 cloth masks and donating them where needed. I will even cut extra elastic for ear loops and safety pin it on the mask as the elastic may wear due to a hot soapy hand wash.

    I feel that a new cluster could only be a day away anywhere.

    Why is a Samsung phone not working to reply?

    • roblogic 8.1

      Reply function doesn't work on iPad either.. my guess is some mobile browsers have trouble rendering the fancy comment box

    • weka 8.2

      Lprent is aware of the issue and working on it. You can try switching between mobile and desktop versions, sometimes that helps.

  9. Another Auckland CCO failure. Not Watercare, this time it's POAL. Not content with shitting on Aucklanders by building a bloody great carpark in the middle of the harbour, Ports of Auckland is an exploitative employer as well.

    The next government needs to take a serious look at the corporate model of governance for public utilities. The profit motive does not deliver for the people, only a bunch of MBA executives whose only skills are "cost" cutting and bullshit.

    • Muttonbird 9.1

      There also more than a whiff that POA (or Tauranga) was the source of the Auckland outbreak.

      • Rapunzel 9.1.1

        Are you sure it's not this incident which did circulate on SM before it came to light officially?


        • Muttonbird

          No. Just that massive port and truckie testing drive a few weeks ago. And the fact the Auckland outbreak is still sourced to Americold.

          They still came up with nothing but a possible theory: Foreign crew member > stevedore > truck-driver > Americold worker. These people generally work (and have smoke breaks) in close contact so I wonder if there was a bit of mixing going on which shouldn't have happened.

          • Rapunzel

            I've had thoughts often re Americool as their Melbourne branch apparently had 2 cases a fortnight earlier – I know they dismiss it but seeing how some things are packed and that it can withstand cold surely is not just coincidence.

            • Andre

              Around August 15th through 18th there was a big fluffy of articles about Americold Melbourne covid cases getting genome sequenced.

              I have yet to find anything explicitly saying the genomes were different to the B.1.1.1 strain in the outbreak here, but I think it's safe to assume that if the Melbourne cases were also B.1.1.1 we would have heard all about it.

    • Draco T Bastard 9.2

      Over the last thirty odd years we've seen that the profit motive always brings about the worst possible response and does not meet the needs of the community.

    • Wensleydale 9.3

      Tony Gibson again, "Their health is our number one concern." Sure it is, mate. Sure it is. This guy was an arsehole all through the strikes, and he's still an arsehole.

  10. Dennis Frank 10

    It's deja vu all over again, again: https://edition.cnn.com/2020/08/13/politics/pentagon-ufo-task-force/index.html

    The Pentagon is forming a new task force to investigate UFOs that have been observed by US military aircraft, according to two defense officials. Deputy Secretary of Defense David Norquist will help oversee the task force

    Members of Congress and Pentagon officials have long expressed concerns about the appearance of the unidentified aircraft that have flown over US military bases, posing a risk to military jets. There is no consensus on their origin… The Senate Intelligence Committee voted in June to have the Pentagon and intelligence community provide a public analysis of the encounters, following the official Pentagon release of three short videos showing US aircraft encountering these phenomena.

    You can understand how distressing it must be when your top guns get left flat-footed all the time. Hard to be macho. The hormones just stop flowing.

    • Andre 10.1

      Yeah, those camera flares are a serious national security threat.


      • Dennis Frank 10.1.1

        If US intelligence would only learn from random website entrepreneurs posing as tech expert theoreticians, instead of believing what defense personnel & hotshot pilots saw, everyone would live happily ever after… 👽

        • Andre

          Hotshot pilots with a penchant for trolling those who want to believe.

          Said Fravor, “We used to fly night vision goggles… [and] you can see a campfire from like fifty miles away. So we would go out at night flying around on goggles. You’d see a campfire and go, ‘Oh. UFO time’”. “[Y]ou get the airplane going around 600 knots and then you pull the power back to idle so you can’t hear it. Then you get zinging toward the fire and you turn the lights all down because we’re in a restricted area so you can do that. There’s lights on it you can only see if you’re on vision goggles. So the other airplanes can see us, but no one else can see us. Then you go zinging at it and right when you get to the campfire you pull the airplane into vertical and stroke the afterburners, let ’em light off, you count to three and then you just go away. Instant UFO reporting.”


          • Dennis Frank

            Obviously pranksters get in on such acts. I recall some faking crop circles in the early '90s & impressing the media – but not the experts, who would point out the physical differences between the fakes and the real thing. So that's a red herring. Military authorities aren't ever likely to be fooled by time-wasters.

            • Andre

              Military authorities aren't ever likely to be fooled by time-wasters.

              I'm rendered utterly speechless by that statement, so I'll just spend a while basking in the gloriousness of the worldview that produced it.

            • Drowsy M. Kram

              "…the real thing." Oh Dennis, isn't your inner skeptic twitching, just a little?

              "Although obscure natural causes or alien origins of crop circles are suggested by fringe theorists, there is no scientific evidence for such explanations, and all crop circles are consistent with human causation."

              I admire the creativity/artistry of some hoaxers, provided it’s all in good fun.

              • Dennis Frank

                all crop circles are consistent with human causation

                Seems like total crap to me. Written by the type of sceptic who is possessed by an inner ideological agenda. You know, the kind of person who is too lazy to check out evidence.

                Not that I have. I just looked at the photos & read parts of the books at the time. So I arrived at an opinion based on pattern recognition. Neither true believer nor retard sceptic. Binary folk are ever so reluctant to categorise stuff into the maybe category, eh? That's due to being unable to conceive a third alternative.

                  • Dennis Frank

                    Like me, a physics graduate, so he ought to have known better! We may be alone, we may not, so that third option exists until you collapse the wave function (via experimental detection).

                    Journalists who enquired of Clarke whether he was gay were told, "No, merely mildly cheerful."

                    However, Michael Moorcock wrote: "Everyone knew he was gay. In the 1950s, I'd go out drinking with his boyfriend."


                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  "There are many theories about what creates crop circles, including aliens, mysterious vortices, time travelers and wind patterns, but they all lack one important element: good evidence. The only known cause of crop circles is humans. Perhaps one day a mysterious, unknown source will be discovered for crop circles, but until then perhaps they are best thought of as collective public art."
                  Radford, B. "Crop Circles Explained". LiveScience. [2017]

                  "Seems like total crap to me."

                  Like Radford, I’m all for keeping an open mind, but with past and present crop circle evidence pointing in one direction, we’ll have to agree to disagree retotal crap“.

            • JohnSelway

              " but not the experts, who would point out the physical differences between the fakes and the real thing "

              There are no real crop circles. They are all man made

              • Incognito

                There are no real crop circles. They are all man made



                Never heard of Black Swans either?

                • Dennis Frank

                  Anticipating publication of another theory sometime soon: those crop circles in English fields that have been reported on & off since the Middle Ages (according to one researcher years ago) must have been done by wallabies travelling from Oz on ufos.

                  What bothered me was the perfect symmetry exhibited by the wheat stalks. Perhaps wallabies are capable of levitation? That would explain the lack of footprints within the circles. 🤩

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  First 'reported' by the BBC in June 2009; for ‘true believers‘ only – it's enough to make a "retard sceptic" weep (with laughter.)

                  • Incognito

                    We need more laughter in this world.

                  • Dennis Frank

                    I hope you didn't think I included your good self in that categorisation! There's an immense difference between a sceptic with an open mind and one without, and, operating within the former category, I tend to see you as more likely to be in that camp.

                    Those wielding scepticism as an ideology are sufficiently robotic that you can read them from phraseology used, denial of existence of evidence, aversion to even looking for it, etc.

              • Dennis Frank

                Mere conjecture. No proof offered.

                • Robert Guyton

                  Terence McKenna says it's the Japanese crop-circle tourists who make them; they're always there as soon as the circles appear (and before, nearby, waiting…) and act completely innocent when challenged. Cameras are the perfect excuse for being there and a lack of English language the perfect foil to interrogation. The precision of some of those crop-circles certainly points toward a culture of accuracy, elegance and attention to detail in the creators: the Japanese fit the bill!

                • JohnSelway

                  " Mere conjecture. No proof offered."

                  It's you lacking the proof, sir. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and it isn't up to me – you made the claim, you back it up

                  • Dennis Frank

                    I wasn't aware that I was claiming anything, John, but I think upon re-reading what I wrote that I can see why you thought so.

                    So to clarify: my perception of the difference between the fakes and the real thing is derived from the researchers plus the photos in their books, but I probably was too loose in the phrasing.

                    This is merely my personal impression we're talking about. Nothing to do with objective fact. And I don't rely on any single source – I scan the field & get an overview, a technique I acquired long ago. So my opinion re authenticity is not an assertion in the way you read it. I'm sorry to have used real thing in a way that may have implied whatever, when I just meant `no evidence of fakery apparent'. To differentiate those from the obvious fakes!

        • McFlock

          You are assuming that pentagon (especially air arm) officials see no advantage in a perceived techological "gap" between the USA and an unidentified neer-peer adversary.

          After all, 60-70 years ago the "missile gap" resulted in budget cuts, right? But that had claims that were demonstrably false. These videos, released without comment, make no claims other than the subjects weren't conclusively and individually identified. Like, whose balloon was it? Obviously it's unidentified.

          • Dennis Frank

            No, I agree that budget capture is a thing, and the US military hierarchy are masters of the art. It would be fair enough to then classify the senators as suckers – unless you'd rather deem them scamsters (ie operating as agents for the military), but that is probably more feasible for those with military corporations in their home state.

            • McFlock

              Dude, I don't deem them to be anything.

              The only thing I deem is that there is nothing particularly novel or interesting about those films – the release of the footage and lack of classification of the objects is not proof of aliens, nor is it proof of a funding conspiracy, nor is it proof of haoxers, nor does it indicate that the pentagon merely declassifies shit without comment because it wants to keep the tinfoil hats at arm's length.

              The general indications of the videos and the debunkers and the alternative theories is that the explanations for the content of those videos are incredibly banal. Why would I care to know or speculate beyond that, other than to respond to some obscurantist stupidity posted here?

              • Dennis Frank

                If I were in their shoes (US military decision-makers & their pr hire) I'd reassure the public by making obscure videos available too! Heaven forbid they'd ever release the good ones!!

                Anyway the point of the posting is the oscillating tendency of the US military & govt to create official UFO investigation orgs, wind them up some years or decades later, then do it all again in a different form…

                • McFlock

                  Anyway the point of the posting is the oscillating tendency of the US military & govt to create official UFO investigation orgs, wind them up some years or decades later, then do it all again in a different form…


                  The new one seemed to be the subject of comment 10, but the point still seems to be elusive. Could you please express your point more clearly?

                  • Dennis Frank

                    The news reported by CNN alerts us to a pattern of behaviour by the US military & govt: create official UFO investigations, terminate them a considerable time later, then recreate them in a somewhat different form some years after that.

                    • McFlock

                      Bureaucracy is like gardening – the well-tended plots have things come and go and regrow and pruning is done, preferably for the health of the plant rather than convoluted topiary.

                    • Incognito []

                      Bureaucracy is like a tropical jungle, full of poisonous animals and plants (e.g. Triffid deskus), and easy to get lost in and die, never to be seen again.

                    • McFlock

                      There are those who prefer open lawns over native jungle or forest. But remember -heavily rolled and mown non-pastoral, decorative lawns were adopted by the powerful to demonstrate their power. 🙂

                    • Gabby

                      It's like a magic money tree.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Back when children did domestic chores every day, I received training from the patriarch & become proficient at pushing a mechanical mower around the lawn. Come the 1960s, we moved up-market & became fossil-fuel dependent local neighbourhood noise polluters.

                      Last year I told my neighbour I intend to eliminate my front lawn & gazed curiously at him to see how much he would freak out, but he rolled with it. Sam is cool. Electrical inspector & staunch Labour voter, but we shoot the breeze with political conversations often with no arguments. Maori but looks Greek patrician, talks more like a pakeha, and his property is immaculate!

                      So I get your point. Encultured control of nature is embedded as much as bureaucracy. I'm rewilding – but slowly enough to not spook the locals. My frogs have been in winter hibernation but have seen a couple medium-sized, almost black, moving now & then but not much. Wonder why they never croak (even in spring & summer)…

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Rewilding, Dennis!?!

                      He nui te tautoko!

      • Robert Guyton 10.1.2

        His voice betrayed no guile to my ears.

    • Incognito 10.2

      I used to see UFOs all the time in my garden until somebody pointed out to me that they were Tui.

      • ianmac 10.2.1

        A scout troup were on a camp over the hills to the East of Paraparaumu at Camp Waghorn I think. One of the tasks was to build some hot air balloons out of tissue paper and fuelled with methylated spirits on cotton wool. Launched at night they drifted westwards over Paraparaumu. They were sighted by excited townsfolk. Police notified. Reports of figures looking out of portholes and craft as big as two football fields. Certain eyewitnesses. Until the lads went home on Sunday PM. Cover blown.

        Those balloons were box shaped about 600mm high.

        • Incognito

          The Yes vote will be high in Paraparaumu in the upcoming referendum, undoubtedly.

        • Anne

          You have reminded me of the international ballyhoo over the UFO's seen in the night sky seaward of Kaikoura in 1978. Every now and them TV3 comes up with a re-run of the story, totally ignoring the explanation for the phenomena issued at the time by the Meteorological Service.

          There was an intense anticyclone over the South Island and an inversion layer at about 2000 feet. On the surface and just beyond the 12 mile limit there was a Japanese fishing fleet. The lights from the fishing fleet was being reflected back at the point of the inversion layer as bright lights seemingly bobbing around the night sky. Sea must have been quite choppy.

          • gsays

            Jeez what a fun grinch, Anne.

            Do you go to play-centres and tell the kids Santa isn't real as well? wink

            • mac1

              What I can't figure out is why we sceptics never see the paranormal. The Kaikoura episode with Blenheim pilot Bill Startup brings back Bruce Cathie's leylines and Harmonic 33, and a local woman Moreland who saw a UFO there in 1959.

              Seriously, I can identify with the startling sight of something inexplicable but evident to the eyes. Earlier this year looking at the night sky and then seeing travelling lights in a straight line was freaky, until I looked up online what was happening with a series of satellites……….

              • Dennis Frank

                The individual experiences are often explained via optical illusions. The mass simultaneous sightings are usually ignored by sceptics due to being too hard to dismiss via this method.

                I recall reading once about one such in Taupo, that happened in the 1950s. Think it made the newspaper, but what impressed me was the sheer number of eyewitness accounts that all told the same story.

                Re Cathie's theory, I couldn't get my head into it, so I share the sceptic's view. Ley lines in Britain I'm agnostic about. Since they have a fair bit of physical correlates from the megalithic era, not just a personal fantasy of some nutcase.

                • McFlock

                  except 10.2.1 was literally a mass sighting addressed by sceptics. They tend to be hyper-examined these days – e.g. the "missile" off California was examined exhaustively.

                  What "mass sightings" of ufos have been ignored? A taupo one in the 1950s deserves to be added to wikipedia.

                  On a related note, a while back I saw a joke chart that purported to show the incidence of miracles – consistantly high until photography was invented, then low and flat until photoshop was invented when it spiked up again. Same sort of thing applies to UFOs, I reckon.

                • mac1

                  Funnily, this sceptic has never been even part of a mass sighting. I did, though, find out as a young student on a ouija board that I could very subtly spell out all sorts of messages. Nearly cost me a relationship when my girlfriend finally sussed what I was doing………

                  • Dennis Frank

                    Something similar happened to me in my first year at university: a group of us tried the ouija method & got mixed results. Some gibberish yet some words spelt out. After we gave up my old school friend & current flatmate admitted to the group that he had been steering the pointer. Taught me that the spirit of (scientific) enquiry is always vulnerable to being trumped by jokers…

              • aj

                Worked night shifts off and on for thick end of 40 years including outside work, never seen anything not explained by science.

            • greywarshark

              gsay Hah Lol cheeky

          • ianmac

            The plane that reported the Kaikoura UFO is now a cafe parked opposite the Blenheim Airport.

  11. Stuart Munro 11

    Several police officers were handing out free disposable masks at the Wellington station.

    This is the way.

  12. Kay 12

    Extremely upsetting to hear parent being part of the problem and spouting some very unpleasant Pasifika remarks with regards to the outbreak, and by extension, immigration in general. No amount of calling out and calmly challenging her thought process made any difference.

    I'm more confused given she's a refugee herself, and is also disgusted by her father's anti-semetic views during the war when his Jewish neighbours were literally being carted off for extermination. It seems her own life experiences haven't produced tolerance. The only thing we seem to agree on is maybe it stems from her growing up in Australia at a time when racism/white superiority was actively encouraged and perhaps a bit of indoctrination that stuck.

    Is there any point in continuing to reason with her?

    • weka 12.1

      build bridges and keep lines of communication open over time (if you can). Change doesn't have to happen in one conversation or debate, it can happen gradually, building on each previous discussion.

      My experience in conservative communities was that keeping the relationship sound was just as important as any reasoning.

    • Incognito 12.2

      What does this comment relate to?

    • Brigid 12.3

      "Is there any point in continuing to reason with her?"

      Only for as long as you have the energy to.

    • Shanreagh 12.4

      Can you please put up a link, we don't know what you are referring to.

      • Kay 12.4.1

        Apologies, it was a phone conversation this morning so no link.

        Just a shock my otherwise very liberal mother has an extremely racist streak

        • gsays

          Offense is only ever offered, it is over to you if you want to take it.

          Try looking at where you have commonalities.

          Plus, it is yr Mum…different generations, different experiences, different expectations.

    • roblogic 12.5

      Tell her to criticise government policy, not people just trying to make a life for their families

  13. Muttonbird 13

    41 Covid deaths in Melbourne today.

    When worldometers is updated Australia's total deaths from Covid will be 652. The 'first wave' stopped at 102 so the July outbreak there has cost 550 lives so far.

  14. greywarshark 14


    Save those cute little bats, and their home territory for hundreds, thousands? of years, that nasty great humans are just preparing to rip away and colonise with their own kind.

    That is such a familiar theme in our country – here in NZ where we like to say we are a developed, highly civilised country. But a query – what did we develop from and what, to? Have we been fooling ourselves – is there someone who can give a studied, balanced opinion out there (not Mike Hosking or others with their feet in the troughs out there overflowing with goodies that I've heard of)?

    • Chris T 15.1

      Bit of a non thing IMHO.

      Places like SkyCity use it already, so if it helps the cops catch bad people who cares?

      • Incognito 15.1.2

        SkyCity is at Victoria Street, it is not Victoria Street. In other words, your comment contains a false equivalence.

        • Chris T


          And maybe I am just a drone, willing to be lead.

          But I don't really see it as different from finger prints, and DNA records from crim's

          They actually have to know who you are for the thing to work.

          • Incognito

            No maybe, ifs or buts. SkyCity is a private business with restrictions and not a public place as such. There are also CCTVs operating in prisons, which is an equally flawed comparison for this discussion. You are diverting, and this may be accidental, but now I have pointed it out to you, you have a conscious choice.

            • Chris T


              I was meaning the facial recognition.

              The CCTV bit is irrelevant as they are every where

            • Chris T

              Let me put it another way.

              Ignore my point about SkyCity using facial recognition.

              I just don't have an issue with the police using facial recognition if it catches bad people.

              Yes, there may one or two cases of people using it for bad things, but the same could be argued for police having access to vehicle owners personal details from number plates at the push of a few buttons.

              • Incognito

                Ok, thanks.

                Matching vehicle ownership for licensing purposes, for example, is not quite the same as biometrics identification (and authorisation?), is it? A better comparison would be the use of fingerprints or the publication of photos taken in public.

                It really helps to very clearly articulate the issue before launching (into) debate.

              • RedBaronCV

                Well I have a lot of issues with nasty little authoritarian tribes like the cops running around and spying on people going about their normal daily business. What about the taking of photos at demo's – then later using these to discriminate against certain classes of people. Where are these cameras going to be and will there be a bias towards younger and lower skilled people being photographed.

                As to catching bad people – they would need to CCTV far more executive workplaces , clubs , the roads to coromandel baches and exclusive restaurants to catch the real crooks who prey on society.

                Then the traffic enforcement side – the costs of licences, rego's etc has soared compared to minimal wages and benefits. Little wonder that otherwise law abiding citizens slither around in not so legal cars – the costs are beyond them. If the legalise dope goes through then there is whole areas of enforcement that will no longer be needed. Looks like cops are going for some job protection there.

                • Chris T


                  From my limited understanding of dealing with them. And it is pretty limited apart from someone trying to sell it,

                  It is anywhere where the cameras are up to spec' to be good enough to pick up the details needed visually by the software, used on the servers which controls the network of cameras.

                  Ie your average old camera from the 90s is probably a bit screwed, but new ones on the main black spots like Courtney Place where there are drunken fights or same sort of places in Auckland would probably be ok.

                  And obviously the thing looking at the cameras needs access two the visual in real time or it is a bit pointless, so public ones in this case.

                  • RedBaronCV

                    Thank you for confirming my point. and no we do not need the attempted distraction of the type of camera.

                    Clearly your idea of a camera set up to catch a "bad guy" boils down to a public camera for low level street drug deals, some public drunkenness and a forgot to rego the car moment.

                    How about a few cameras that catch high income males in cafes assaulting female wait staff, issuing warrants to search journalists homes and insinuating to third parties that said journalists are being looked at for criminal reasons all of which turned out to be blatantly untrue. Street camera's won't catch the real crooks of society they will just be used to intimidate lawful people going about their lawful business.

                    • Chris T

                      Sorry RBC, but think we might have to agree to disagree on this one.

                      An example. Some piece of scum king hits some innocent down Courtney Place, and does a runner.

                      The dude/dudette king hit smashes their head into the ground while falling and dies.

                      If all the police have is footage of the scums face, I would prefer them to be able to identify them as easily as possible.

                      Apologies, my comment on real time, was probably a bit too short sighted after thinking about it more.

      • greywarshark 15.1.3

        What if the cops become bad people and set out to catch good people. It is important to try and care about surveillance, loss of personal freedom if you are commenting on a leftish blog Chris T.

        • Chris T

          If we are going to do hypotheticals I can come up with doozys

          What if [name deleted; against TS policy] got away that day and the to catch him was through facial CCTV facial recognition?

          Look I agree there will be bad cops like in every other profession, and a couple may even take advantage of it, that is a security issue for the police, but they already have way more access to private info' through other methods like vehicle registration etc, tracing phone movements with a warrant, to the point that I really can't see facial recognition making a difference to privacy.

          If they start talking about bugging peoples phones and planting tracking devices on peoples cars I would be concerned. But this. Not really.

          It is happening all over the world as part of policing, in airports, casinos as mentioned earlier etc (Yes I know these aren't public places)

          [Some hypotheticals are just a bad idea – Incognito]

          • Incognito

            See my Moderation note @ 9:01 PM.

          • RedBaronCV

            Again you confirm that there is far too much access by cops to private data in an unregulated way already. And the few bad cops – get real we have a continuing trickle of stories roast busters, Hager and other journalists, computer hacking investigations, illegal traffic stops to get information, tooling up and running around doing traffic stops like they are in a war zone and that's just what we know about .. that's just more than the odd bad egg it's a systemic problem that needs dealing with.

            Nor is it correct to conflate such things as phone hacking which should need a warrant to the unrestricted unsupervised collection of public data using facial recognition of citizens doing absolutely nothing wrong as they go about their lawful daily lives.

            and yes a lot of stuff is collected in non public spaces and again should we be ruling more fully against some of this.

            Just remember the police work for us as a society not for some right wing authoritarian clique.

  15. Ed1 16

    I like No Right Turn – it often has interesting information that is picked up much later by other media, but at other times it is frustrating in its blatant partisanship:


    National often claims that the government has failed because an element of party policy put forward before the election has not been achieved and that this represents a failure of government – and the policy is of course always represented as a promise, so according to National it is a "broken promise." We know that a three party government does require compromises, but these do not always represent failure by the party or party that wants something to happen; it may represent a ''victory" for the third party. Also of course there are some policies which are overtaken by events (covid for example?) or where other priorities mean something gets lower than desired priority.

    In this case NRT is talking about a "failure'' by the Green Party and Labour – not a failure of government. We need to remember this going into an election campaign; we collectively get what we collectively vote for…

    Sadly NRT does not accept comments – fair enough as far as the time it clearly takes on The Standard to keep discussion civil and weed out the nutters; but for a blog that clearly supports some Green policies to blame the government for the need for consensus that is a fundamental part of that government is somewhat short sighted – despite problems I believe that a smaller party like the Green Party does have legitimate views; I do not want voters to think that it is only worth voting for Labour or National.

    • lprent 16.1

      IS at NRT used to accept comments a long time ago. He shut it down because he prefers to write rather than deal with the ignorant dipshits who used to write most of the comments. I think that he stopped about 2006 or 7

      It was pity because the comments were often as good as the posts.

  16. Muttonbird 17

    A terrible look for Judith Collins here. Corrupt husband and chief Kauri stump digger David Wong tung has taken to posting misogynist memes about the Prime Minister.


    She says she can’t do anything about it but in reality she endorses this behaviour.

    Should be worth at least 50K votes for JA. Keep it up David.

    • Chris T 17.1

      While I don't really think it is that clever, I am missing where the misogynist bit is.

      Have you seen some of the Collin's and Bridge's ones?

      • Muttonbird 17.1.1

        You are well known for not recognising misogyny. One clue is in the use of the name "Cindy" which minimises and trivialises the PM, and all women, really.

        Also worrying for Collins is the second one retweeted there by her apparently unruly husband is watermarked “the BFD” which is Slater’s vehicle. He set it up after claiming he had a stroke in order to avoid paying his debtors from the failed WOBF.

        Collins has had a cosy relationship with Slater through the years, using him to conduct Dirty Politics. That relationship also contributed to her fall from grace and generally highlighted her and her husband’s corrupt nature.

        Seems Mr Wong tung is still an avid reader…

        • Chris T

          Something tells me Ardern is tough enough to not get offended by a stupid nickname, or needs people getting offended on her behalf.

          Same as Crusher, or does that not count as misogynistic for some reason?

          Or Soymun Brudges. Which I assume is misandrist.

          • Rapunzel

            It's actually less IMO about Jacinda Ardern who just gets one vote & given a raft of slights that most of the public have not had to witness, and would be rightly appalled by, this is how the public will view the LOTO. Regardless of her trying to dismiss it & perhaps suggesting NZers can't "take a joke" or a bit of levity it goes to the core of showing two faces to the public, one that's relatively benign and the other that is a relationship with a nasty and dismissive view of wider NZ

    • Pat 17.2

      You have to wonder about the intellect…feeding the base has its limitations…they can only vote once

    • RedBaronCV 17.3

      But What About Judith's personal responsibility for the poor personal choice of 41 years ago? Isn't that what the RW says to single mothers struggling to bring up the kids? They made a poor personal choice to have kids with someone so need to be pounded by the right?

      Could you imagine the uproar if first bloke was doing anything like this? but he's far too sensible.

    • PsyclingLeft.Always 17.4

      Yea seen that. This from ODT. Photo …a right pair. The dodgy duo.


  17. Reality 18

    The husband of Judith Collins is actually posting childish rubbish which one would think came from an immature 14 year old boy.

    • Muttonbird 18.1

      Collins shrugs and claims she can't do anything about it. This is an admission she endorses it. If she felt it was damaging she could say to her husband, "you are hurting my career, please stop". But she won't because she doesn't believe he is hurting her career.

      • weka 18.1.1

        Or, she told him to stfu and he didn't and it's better for her to make light of it in public. Her husband sounds like a total dick, and her point about not being able to control him seems potentially true.

      • Patricia 2 18.1.2

        If she can't even manage her husband she won't be much use as PM. Don't their billboards state "strong leadership" ?

  18. PaddyOT 19

    " If you’ve got the secret to how you control a man who is 64 years old, used to play a lot of rugby and was a policeman, good luck and let me know,” Judith said.


    • Muttonbird 19.1

      Yep. Screams male dominance and domestic abuse. And it screams even louder she is accepting of it.

      That needs to go to the media.

      • Chris T 19.1.1

        Are you accusing Collin's husband of domestic abuse against her Muttonbird?

        • Muttonbird

          No. I am accusing her of trivialising domestic abuse in order to deflect and for political purposes.

          That she would suggest the prospect is pretty gross.

    • mac1 19.2

      Hint…… it's not about control, but Judith doesn't get that.

  19. Robert Guyton 20

    "“He is one of the least sexist men I know, he is married to me, how could he be sexist?” Collins said."

    “He is an adult, he will make his own decisions and let’s put it this way, I don't have to answer for him because I have not been able to control him in 41 years."

    These 2 claims are contradictory, Judith.

  20. Robert Guyton 21

    It's juvenile behaviour from the husband of the Leader of the Opposition.

  21. DS 22

    Rebutting Chris Trotter's analysis of Winston Peters:

    Misreading the Sorcerer's Apprentice

    • Pat 22.1

      as usual neither party is correct…..id suggest both are writing to a desired outcome….and as time passes both will become increasingly unlikely

  22. Red 23

    The green school saga get worst, funding conspiracy theorist and new age crystal moonbeams

    • Incognito 23.1

      Spring tomorrow, full moon the day after. Life is good.

      • mac1 23.1.1

        "Spring is sprung, the grass is riz." and in the river and on its banks at the foot of my garden there are nests which produce cygnets and ducklings, little kawau and pukeko, tiny scaup and paradise shelducks, so I know 'where the birdies is." Life is indeed good.

      • sumsuch 23.1.2

        Full moon as far as I can see tonight. 21 degrees today in Gisborne on the last day of winter. First day of chafing for me.

        Why don't I think of myself as a manual worker? Yet by all measures I am for 34 years. I feel I'm posturing since I'm middle class and my real life is in my head.

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