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Over it.

Written By: - Date published: 10:54 am, December 16th, 2014 - 56 comments
Categories: journalism, Media, newspapers, radio - Tags: , ,

Let me get this straight. An armed guy in a café takes some customers as hostages. As Colonial Rawshark has commented on a couple of threads, this is a standard armed hostage type situation. Can we expect world headlines the next time somebody lingers in a dairy, holding the owner at knife point while the police congregate outside?

This whole Sydney situation has been bullshit and all major news outlets ought to be engaged in some serious self reflection and begging our fucking forgiveness this morning. Actually, no. What any reasonable news outlet would be doing is questioning whether the authorities have finally jumped the shark with all their anti-terrorist hype. But I guess that’s our problem right there. The shark jumping is a tandem affair involving both the authorities and major news outlets.

So it looks like you’ll just have to rely on your own judgement for deciding what is reasonable and sensible and whether or not the shark has been well and truly jumped.

56 comments on “Over it.”

  1. felix 1

    We are all terrorists now.

    • batweka 1.1

      and we can add people with mental health issues and refugees to the list of people who should expect to be monitored.

      • Bill 1.1.1

        It’s government, their propaganda systems and security policies that ought to be monitored. Unfortunately, all major news outlets are very much part and parcel of the propaganda system.

        I’m listening to Radio NZ right now. No analysis of how they reported events from Sydney yesterday.

        Also just checked the Guardian (that I was none too impressed with yesterday), and it’s carrying this sub-headline – Regardless of suspect’s motives, there is nagging concern over new breed of jihadists inspired by Isis extremism

        And here on ‘ts’ and for some reason completely beyond me, the headline post at the moment “The Sydney Siege Finishes” has been categorised under ‘war’ and ‘Syria’.

        • Tracey

          outrage that hager might make money from his book but the media drooling over this for ratings and money is okee dokee

        • spades' A spade

          It probably is correct to place such a post under the ‘war’ and ‘Syria’ category for the fact that the news outlets and authorities were spinning it in that direction. The news outlets and authorities caused it to be a ‘war’ and ‘syria’ topic purely through the speculation and/or propaganda that was spewed out. I think it is important for people to be able to find that post under that section so they can see how the authorities in the modern (western) world operate in linking a big group of people to a crime carried out by an individual.

          I wouldn’t be surprised if the authorities are not finished in trying to connect this directly to IS.

        • saveNZ

          Totally right. The word ‘terror’ and ‘terrorist’ turn people into salivating zombies, the most inappropriately used words from the past 10 years.

      • Tracey 1.1.2

        i just heard Key say that the 30 or 40 he named in his speech are like this guy…

        that means we just passed laws against the mentally ill

        • emergency mike

          “that means we just passed laws against the mentally ill”

          Time to revisit Foucault,

          “Moreover, he argued that the alleged scientific neutrality of modern medical treatments of insanity is in fact a cover for controlling challenges to a conventional bourgeois morality. ”

          “He further argues that the new mode of punishment becomes the model for control of an entire society, with factories, hospitals, and schools modelled on the modern prison.

          To a great extent, control over people (power) can be achieved merely by observing them.”

          • Tracey

            i should have been clearer… we passed laws to spy on the mentally ill rather than treat them.

            • emergency mike

              I didn’t mean any kind of correction to you Tracey, what you wrote made me think of Foucault is all. As in stomping on the mentally ill to protect the bourgeois status quo from any challenges.

              • Tracey

                No worries Mike, I got what you were meaning having read some Foucault in my time but it made me think my comment may have been misleading.

                • Sacha

                  “control over people (power) can be achieved merely by observing them”

                  I had forgotten that line, thanks. Great writer.

        • tinfoilhat

          Has there been some clarification on whether he had mental health issues ?

          • Tracey

            No, but then it hasn’t been as widely discussed as his being an ISIS brain washing victim.

            It’s interesting to see those who default to

            1. terrorist; or
            2. mentally ill; or
            3. Violent bastard

            I plumped for mentally ill

            • The Al1en

              I haven’t seen lone wolf terrorist mentioned yet, but then I haven’t looked too hard for fear of all the jerked knees, left and right, poking one of my eyes out.


              And perhaps there should be an option 4 on your list – All of the above.

              • Tracey

                His alleged murder of his wife and over 40 sexual charges don’t seem to have been as a lone wolf terrorist, or as any terrorist.

                he is not the first person who has finally had his life of fakery and shame and crime catch up with him decide to go out in what they consider a blaze of glory but in my mind, that doesn’t make him a terrorist, just cos he had part of the Saudi flag with him.

                To my untrained ye most terrorist acts are done by people who go out of their way to be secretive until they commmit the act, not parade themselves in front of authorities for years first.

                • The Al1en

                  I don’t think previous history has much relevance when profiling lone wolf terrorists as anyone can turn, criminals or grade a students.
                  I’m not saying this guy was a wolfie, but it’s a legitimate scenario with many previous examples on record, so proper to proffer it.

                • emergency mike

                  My thoughts too. A guy who loses his rag and goes full fruit loop with a gun a la David Gray isn’t a terrorist. He’s just a guy who’s lost the plot. It doesn’t matter what cause or flag he thinks he’s waving.

                  Having said that, it’s notoriously difficult to define terrorism. Mostly because whatever definition you come up with, Western powers have been doing it with bells on in the Middle East.

                  But the point is that we don’t really need to define it. Attacks like this are simply criminal acts. We already have laws against them. More spy powers isn’t going to do anything to stop other people like this.

                  Quit shitting on Middle Eastern countries could be the way to go imo.

                  • Tracey

                    agree and having it hard to define plays into the hands of the hysterics. people are never easier to manipulate than when scared.

            • tinfoilhat

              “I plumped for mentally ill”

              I think we all struggle to find a reason why anyone would do such things, probably because they vast majority of us can never imagine going there ourselves.

              • Tracey

                and because some very seriously mentally unwell people who dont get help have committed some murder and violence in the past.

          • Anne

            For god’s sake tinfoilhat the media has been full of his past. It seems he was in one of those notorious Australian detention centres and we all know (or should know) that many of those refugees ended up seriously damaged for life. So, you could say… Australia was instrumental in producing this disturbed individual in the first place.

            He was a profoundly deranged person who, as Dr Paul Buchanan puts it, cloaked himself as an apparent extremist.


            • tinfoilhat

              ‘..it seems……’

              ‘..we all know……’

              ‘… so you could say…..’

              Yes there’s a lot of that going about at the moment Anne.

  2. Bill 2

    And still Radio NZ is giving uncritical airtime to that twat Abbot wanking on about how the gunman had (paraphrasing) “a symbol of the ISIS death cult”…

    Now, as far as I can figure, something along the lines of ‘Allah is the one god and Muhammad is his prophet’ is benign and a widely used slogan within Islam.

    Meanwhile, a quick google search confirms that ‘all’ major news outlets are running apologist lines to the effect that Man Haron Monis was kinda sorta almost a terrorist and the only reason he wasn’t actually one is because of the small and to be quietly brushed over detail, that he didn’t actually belong to any terrorist organisation…

    The fuckers peddled hype and lies that have only served to permit a ramping up of anti-Islamic sentiment and bullshit by bigots. That they are thus far refusing to acknowledge their part in this particularly rancid piece of propaganda is, at best, disturbing.

    • emergency mike 2.1

      “While this was the work of a disturbed individual, Islamic State was also running an outreach campaign trying to tap into such people, he said.

      The Prime Minister said the holding up of an Islamic flag in the Lindt cafe in Sydney made it feel like ISIS (Islamic State) was the driving force behind what happened.”

      That’s on the RNZ site.

      I realise that they then printed a comment from Grant Robertson about how Key is conflating issues, but hey RNZ let me show you how to rephrase that in a less arse-licking spin-repeating way:

      While this was the work of a disturbed individual, Islamic State was also running an outreach campaign trying to tap into such people, he said. When pressed for evidence of this claim, Mr Key made a lame joke about how Andrew Little might be a terrorist because he ‘looks bit angry’. He then said that ‘Labour made stuff up too’. He really is a dick.

      The Prime Minister said the holding up of an Islamic flag in the Lindt cafe in Sydney made it feel like ISIS (Islamic State) was the driving force behind what happened. However he became confused and looked like a dick when asked if he thought that Islamic symbols were exclusively used by ISIS, or whether they are actually quite common in the Islamic world. “Look, I didn’t have that feeling in my capacity as Prime Minister.” It was pretty embarrassing slippery shit.

      You’re welcome.

      • Corokia 2.1.1

        Is there a link to where Key said ” Andrew Little might be a terrorist because he ‘looks bit angry’?
        If that was on record Key should be confronted on that. It looks like he is up and running with the Nats latest spin on Little and he’s such a lowlife that he’ll never let a chance go by to slur his political opponents, even trying to link them to the murderous acts of a madman.

        • emergency mike

          No Corokia, I made that bit up as a joke. The first part of my comment is the actual quote from the article. I did say, “hey RNZ let me show you how to rephrase that”. Sorry if I wasn’t clear.

          Just annoyed that RNZ didn’t bother to call Key out on that crap.

    • …something along the lines of ‘Allah is the one god and Muhammad is his prophet’ is benign and a widely used slogan within Islam.

      “There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet.” It’s not a widely-used slogan, it’s the shahada, the declaration of Islam. It’s the declaration flown on the flag of Saudi Arabia, because it’s a symbol of Muslim ideology, much as nazi germany had a swastika on theirs and the Soviet Union a hammer and sickle on theirs. It’s also featured on the ISIS flag, for the same reason. If any violent nutbars don’t want government officials saying they’re carrying a “symbol of the ISIS death cult,” I suggest not carrying a black flag with the shahada on it.

      • Bill 2.2.1

        It’s not a widely-used slogan, it’s the shahada…

        …that’s been reproduced on coins and walls and whatever since…well, a long time back. In other words, fairly widespread.

        btw. You trying to claim with your swastika reference that Nazis were adherents to Hinduism, Buddhism or Jainism?

        • Psycho Milt

          Yes, much like the swastika, the red star and the hammer-and-sickle. It’s a symbol of an ideology. What purpose do you imagine that particular symbol had at this event?

          • Bill

            Any chance of you writing in complete sentences and being coherent?

            • Psycho Milt

              My comment appears incoherent because you added to yours while I was typing it. Apologies, I should have noticed the update.

              btw. You trying to claim with your swastika reference that Nazis were adherents to Hinduism, Buddhism or Jainism?

              See, this is the kind of sophistry you have to resort to when trying to pretend there’s no political dimension to this guy displaying the shahada at his hostage party. You end up quibbling about whether the swastika is a fascist symbol or not.

              • Colonial Rawshark

                The guy showed the shahada because he knew the media would be all over it and the eyes of the world would be focussed on him, for once. That’s not political; that’s narcisstic, deluded or just plain confused.

                The MSM and the security state politicians have been breeding this kind of over-hyped over-reaction for a long time now. Waiting for a chance to justify their own entrenched positions.

                • The guy showed the shahada because he knew the media would be all over it and the eyes of the world would be focussed on him, for once.

                  Asked him, did you?

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    Did you?

                    Hoist, meet petard. Run up some other flagpole.

                    • I didn’t need to. He helpfully made a bunch of declarations and hoisted a flag. This may come as a shock, but flags serve a purpose.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      CR’s interpretation is at least as likely as yours.

                      What “political dimension” do you attach to the violent actions of a violent man facing prison?

                      It emerges that the gun went off as someone grabbed it. What political dimension can we ascribe to that?

          • One Anonymous Bloke

            Yes, let’s pretend that assigning ‘purpose’ to the actions of a deranged criminal hostage taker isn’t projecting much.

          • Tracey

            to get attention, and you have fallen, hook line and sinker.

      • Tracey 2.2.2


        In God we trust

        God save the Queen

        or prayers in parliament.

        Are you saying the Saudis are carrying a symbol of the isis death cult” when they go tot he Olympic Games?

        • Psycho Milt

          Are you saying the Saudis are carrying a symbol of the isis death cult” when they go tot he Olympic Games?

          Last time I looked, the Saudi flag was green, so hardly likely to be mistaken for the ISIS one, but it does carry the shahada on it for the express purpose of declaring Saudi Arabia beholden to a particular ideology. The one this particular nutter put up was a generic Jihadi one, not the particular one ISIS uses, but it’s hardly surprising your average Aussie doesn’t know the difference.

          • Tracey

            it was not an isis flag… no matter how much you say it and that it is not counts as much against your argument as being like it counts for you. a genuinely ideologically driven jihadist would probably have a symbol which accurately reflects his ideology rather than just what came to hand on the way to the cafe.

            • Psycho Milt

              it was not an isis flag… no matter how much you say it…

              I haven’t said it was an ISIS flag. I’ve said “If any violent nutbars don’t want government officials saying they’re carrying a “symbol of the ISIS death cult,” I suggest not carrying a black flag with the shahada on it.” That still seems to me to be sound advice.

              a genuinely ideologically driven jihadist would probably have a symbol which accurately reflects his ideology…

              A black flag with the shahada on it is a Jihadi flag, so probably did accurately reflect this guy’s ideology.

        • Murray Rawshark

          “Are you saying the Saudis are carrying a symbol of the isis death cult” when they go tot he Olympic Games?”

          There’s probably some truth to that, Tracey. I think the House of Saud has quite a role in backing ISIL.

      • How about the flag of the United Kingdom, which bears not one but three symbols of an organised religion which celebrates death and self-sacrifice. Two of the symbols are used explicitly to honour victory in battle granted by their god!

        *clutches pearls*

    • Anne 2.3

      Haron Monis was kinda sorta almost a terrorist and the only reason he wasn’t actually one is because of the small and to be quietly brushed over detail, that he didn’t actually belong to any terrorist organisation…

      And he was holding a Shiite flag when apparently he was a Sunne – or was it the other way around. Whatever,that was bit strange for starters.

  3. Marksman33 3

    I am fucking appalled at the hype of this hostage drama. The media has blown this so far out of proportion to absolve themselves for their support for the GCSB fiasco. I lost count of how many times Muppet Ryan tried to get someone anyone to say that this nutter was part of IS, on 9 to Noon this morning. Fucking unbelievable.

  4. Nick K 4

    There *could* be a connection, but its more like the connection between violent behaviour and violent video games.

    People with certain mental disorders who have violent thoughts are looking for ways or reasons to attach their actions to something. If they don’t have one thing they have something else, and if it aligns with things that are making the news already then it’ll get more media hype.

    In this case he was certainly trying to associate himself with ISIS or other Islamic extremists when actually he was a sexual abuser from a cult he made up himself.

    Meanwhile in America some things are just the same old tragic news without any connection to terrorism (yet).


    • Tracey 4.1


      It is looking more and more like he is a very violent man who craved attention from his magical healing and self professed muslim leader to his barrage of letter writing and radio calls and used the ISIS thing to get the attention he craved. He may be violent and deranged but if that turns out to have been his motivation he has played the media like fiddles.

      His wife was burned to death…

      “Monis was on bail on a charge of colluding with his girlfriend, Amirah Droudis, to murder Noleen Hayson Pal.

      Ms Pal was lured to the Werrington apartment block in western Sydney where Monis was living in April last year and allegedly doused with accelerant, set alight and then stabbed 18 times by Droudis.”

      Interestingly no one has suggested the murder is connected to ISIS.

      “40 sexual assault charges.

      Additional charges were laid against Monis two months ago, and conviction for sexual assault would have ruined Monis, who was outed as a bogus Islamic cleric by Australian Shia scholars in 2009.”

      No one has suggested a link to ISIS for these crimes either

      Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2874295/Police-investigate-Sydney-siege-gunman-calling-Brother-lone-wolf-fanatic-wider-terror-network.html#ixzz3M1Kbu5xh

      The police on the other hand appear to have handled it as a gunman holding innocent people hostage.

  5. Iron Sky 5

    The likelihood you will loose life years as a consequence of bullshit Nanny Nat Economic decisions = Extreme. There is a GAP between how much money you earn and your life expectancy (it sucks being poor)

    The likelihood you will die of a Terror attack in NZ, make up your own mind (not saying past = future but) see belwo

    Oh, just aside I thought Guyon on RNZ was going to shit himself we sounded so excited.

    KNOW YOUR RISK: 6 Reported events relating to “Terrorism” in NZ

    Acts of terrorism[edit]
    There is no internationally agreed definition of terrorism but in New Zealand it is defined by the Terrorism Suppression Act 2002.

    Rail bridge bombing 1951waterfront dispute a rail bridge was blown up near Huntly.

    Wanganui Computer Centre bombingi. The attacker, a “punk rock” anarchist named Neil Roberts, was the only person killed, and the computer system was undamaged.

    Wellington Trades Hall bombing[edit] 1984, a suitcase bomb was left in the foyer of the Trades Hall in Wellington.Ernie Abbott, the building’s caretaker, was killed

    Rainbow Warrior bombing[edit]
    Fernando Pereira, was drowned when he returned to the vessel to retrieve his cameras, just before it sank.

    2007 anti-terror raids[edit] Although the search warrants used indicated that terrorism related offense were involved, no charges were even laid under the 2002 Terrorism Suppression Act –

  6. Iron Sky 6

    News Flash: Terrorists activate Project: Benign Death

    Realizing statistically, they have not a sweet chance in hell of hurting that many people their analysts have realized a cunning plan. They have worked out that statistically you are more extremely, extremely, extremely, extremely significantly more likely to die dancing or playing table games.

    Their cunning plan……….. wait for it, wait for it………

    To train Jihadists in the black arts of event management.

    Yes, that’s correct folks, death by Black Ops Event Management Squads (BOEMs).

    In addition, they have worked out that by combing certain events, their kill rates will be higher. There cunning plan is to organise DEATH Dance Table Game events all across NZ. Just see the stats:

    Dance parties: 1 in 100,000 chance of dying
    Table games: 1 in 100 million chance of dying


    There next “JOB” will be to infiltrate the National Party to study the fine arts of DEATH by ECOMONICS. This is the Pièce de résistance for any terrorist organisation, control the money supply.

  7. Iron Sky 7


    Exert taken from:


    Your Chances of Dying

    The National Center for Health Statistics reports the average life expectancy in the United States is 77.9 years. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention the leading causes of death in the United States are (in descending order) heart disease, cancer, stroke, chronic lower respiratory diseases, accidents, Alzheimer’s disease and diabetes. (ref: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm)

    There are so many ways to die early; from risky outdoor activities to smoking. At Best Health Degrees we decided to take a look at just how much you increase your chances of dying through these activities. Life after all is one big series of risks. And some risks are worth the shot. One study shows people have a 1 in 100,000 chance of dying while attending a dance party. Another study shows the odds of dying while skydiving in the United States is 1 in 101,083 jumps. What follows is a list of activities, from the ordinary to the extraordinary, and your chances of dying from them.

    Sports and Recreational Activities

    Overall, snow boarding fatality rate: 0.455 per million participant visits. (Source: Shealy, Ettlinger and Johnson )

    Overall, skiing fatality rate: 0.702 per million participant visits. (Source: Shealy, Ettlinger and Johnson)

    Long distance cross-country ski races in Sweden mortality rate: 0.11 per million1 (Source: Postgraduate Medical Journal)

    Skiing at downhill ski resorts in Utah: 2.46 deaths per million exposure days. (Source: Postgraduate Medical Journal)

    The mortality rate for specific activities undertaken in the United States:

    Mountaineering Mortality rate: 0.5988 (/100 participants)
    Hang gliding Mortality rate 0.1786 (/100 participants)
    Parachuting Mortality rate: 0.1754 (/100 participants)
    Boxing Mortality rate: 0.0455 (/100 participants)
    Mountain hiking Mortality rate: 0.0064 (/100 participants)
    Scuba diving Mortality rate: 0.0029 (/100 participants)
    American football Mortality rate: 0.0020 (/100 participants)
    (Source: Postgraduate Medical Journal)
    The Risk of Hiking and Mountain Climbing

    Expert mountain climbers: Annual mortality risk of 1 in 167.

    Recreational climbing – Annual mortality risk of 1 in 1,750.

    Mountain hiking – Annual mortality risk of 1 in 15,700.

    (Source for all three activities: Russell Newcombe & Sally Woods Centre for Applied Psychology, School of Human Sciences, Liverpool John Moores University, Henry Cotton Campus, Webster St., Liverpool, L3 2ET, England )

    Regarding Yosemite trad climbing, the chances of dying when climbing actively every third weekend for two days for a year are: 35 days/year x 2.5 deaths/year / 37,500 climber-days/year or 1/429 (John Dill, article about death and injury in Yosemite 1970 through 1990).

    The mortality rates among trekkers in Nepal during two periods between 1984 and 1991: 0.014 and 0.015 per 100 trekkers.

    On Denali, the highest mountain in Alaska: 0.308 deaths for every 100 mountaineers who register with the National Park Service.

    On Mt. Rainier: Estimated mortality rate of approximately 0.031 per 100 mountaineers.

    Climbing above 6000 m in the Himalayas: 10 to 12.6 deaths for every 100 mountaineers.

    (Source for all five activities: Postgraduate Medical Journal)

    Mortality rate while mountaineering in Mt McKinley National Park, United States: 100 per 1,000,000 exposure days (Source: Postgraduate Medical Journal)

    BASE jumping is one of the world’s most dangerous recreational activities, with overall fatalities in 2002 estimated at approximately one fatality per sixty participants (Source). With base jumping, a person jumps with a parachute from a fixed object.

    Annual mortality risk (AMR)

    Grand Prix racing: 1 in 100
    Motorbike racing: 1 in 1,000
    Canoeing: 1 in 10,000
    Soccer & rugby: 1 in 100,000
    Running/jogging: 1 in 1 million
    Swimming: 1 in 1 million
    (Source for all seven activities: Russell Newcombe & Sally Woods Centre for Applied Psychology, School of Human Sciences, Liverpool John Moores University, Henry Cotton Campus, Webster St., Liverpool, L3 2ET, England )
    Bicycling death rate: 7.1 deaths per one million participants (National Safety Council)

    Odds of dying while skydiving in the United States: 1 in 101,083 jumps. (Source)

    Odds of dying while bungee jumping: About two in one million chances of death. (Source).

    The risk of sudden death during a marathon: 0.8 per 100,000 people. (Source).

    The risk of sudden death while participating in a triathlon: 1.5 in 100,000. (Source).

    Odds of dying while playing high school or college football: 1 in 59 million ( Harvard School of Public Health).

    The Risks of Transportation

    Risk of dying in a car accident: 1 in 6,700 (Harvard School of Public Health)

    Fatalities per 100 Million Vehicle Miles Traveled: 1.14

    Fatalities per 100,000 population: 11.01

    Fatalities per 100,000 Licensed Drivers: 16.13

    Motorcycles: Fatality rate per 100 million vehicle miles traveled: 21.45

    (National Highway traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), 2009))

    U.S. general aviation fatalities: 447; flight hours: 20,900,000 (National Transportation safety board 2010).

    U.S. general aviation: Fatal accidents per 100,000 Flight Hours 1.27 (National Transportation safety board 2010).

    Airliner (Scheduled and nonscheduled Part 21) fatalities per million flight hours: 4.03

    Commuter Airline (Scheduled Part 135) Fatalities per million flight hours: 10.74

    Commuter plane (Nonscheduled Part 135 – Air taxi on demand) fatalities per million flight hours: 12.24

    General aviation (Private Part 91) fatalities per million flight hours: 22.43

    (Sources: NTSB Accidents and Accident Rates by NTSB Classification 1998 – 2007)

    Men who smoke are 22 times more likely to die from lung cancer than non-smokers. Women who smoke are 12 times more likely to die from the disease. Smoking triples the risk of dying from heart disease among middle-aged men and women. People who smoke increase their risk of death from emphysema and bronchitis by almost 10 times.

    (Source: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)

    Lifelong smokers on average have a 50 percent chance of dying from tobacco-related illnesses, with half of them dying before the age of 70. Studies show cigar smokers have 4-10 times the risk of nonsmokers of dying from laryngeal, oral, or esophageal cancers.

    (Source: Oral Cancer Foundation)

    People who had a medium number of years lived with obesity (between five years and 14.9 years), the risk of mortality more than doubled than for people who had never been obese. The risk of mortality almost tripled for those with the longest duration of obesity (more than 15 years) (Source: Monash University researchers )

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