Police cuts

41 comments on “Police cuts ”

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1. muzza 1

   14 July 2012 at 9:08 am

   “Why do National think the business model fits everything? ”

   Why do people who still follow politics think that National are actually making their own decisions/policies. Why do people not wake up to the facts that they are being lead into the most dangerous time in our history, while they are watching tv, talking about rugby, or believing that the political system is still for “coming around”, and serving the people!

   Its nothing to do with National, its the whole rotting system which is the problem!

   I guess one day people will ralise what their apathy created!
2. Kotahi Tane Huna 2

   14 July 2012 at 9:18 am

   The next government has to think seriously about rolling back the failed experiments of the late 20thC. The business model is a proven failure when it comes to delivering public services.

   Now where did I leave my tinfoil hat?
   • muzza 2.1

     14 July 2012 at 9:56 am

     Just “think seriously”, kind of letting whoever it is off the hook there Bloke!

     You don’t have the chops for a tin foil hat, so being cute is about all you got innit 😉
3. tc 3

   14 July 2012 at 9:20 am

   Collins now Tolley so the police have gone from the vicious and scheming to the downright stupid as a minister, shows the priorities and remember the new frontline cops promised to combat crime….yet another lie the MSM conveniently forget.
   • ochocinco 3.1

     14 July 2012 at 9:45 am

     They did get the extra cops…. Counties-Manukau went from approximately 900 to approximately 1200 cops from 2008-2011.
     • lprent 3.1.1

       14 July 2012 at 11:15 am

       By taking them out of northland, Christchurch, Auckland central, etc. Even a complete dork should figure out what happens next….

       Auckland central now has issues with drunkenness on the streets, northland has commanders retiring early in protest at sending their cops out unsafely and unable to do heir job. Christchurch has problems with a major disaster….

       This was all predicted and should have been understandable as a cause and effect. Unless you’re a National politician
       • ochocinco 3.1.1.1

         14 July 2012 at 4:38 pm

         Wrong, wrong, wrong.

         Look, National are a bunch of fucktards but:

         1. Disorder has trended down in Auckland Central since 2007. Simple fact. Why don’t you OIA that (and public place violence). Take out the RWC spike too. Central Auckland is *safer* than it has been for 30 years.
         2. Counties Manukau’s extra 300 didn’t get stripped from elsewhere. They were additional. Again, look at the Annual Reports for the last few years.

         The sort of political kneejerkery you engaged in is EXACTLY why the left gets a bad name. The facts are the facts.

         However, National’s handling of the Police has been shit, as I mentioned below. Will Labour announce its policy? Will it reestablish AMCOS? Will it increase staff numbers? What will it put its signature to?
4. ochocinco 4

   14 July 2012 at 9:43 am

   Here are some issues you have to understand.

   1. Adding police doesn’t reduce crime. It’s the biggest issue, because the general public (including posters here) think that “more frontline = good”. It’s not. Most of the time, frontline cops aren’t preventing crime or making society safer, through no fault of their own – there simply isn’t preventable crime 24/7.

   2. As such, what you need is smart policing (whether you want intelligence-led policing, community-oriented policing, whatever is irrelevant). Some mechanism to target resources where required. Unfortunately, you can’t do that if your limited resources are being squeezed to push out more “frontline” cops who “police dumb” (not that they are stupid, simply that the deployment mechanisms and general tactics aren’t smart)

   3. Like it or not (and I don’t like it), the Police needed to absorb a funding cut. But instead of selectively slicing out chunks of support staff, who enable smart policing through planning and intelligence work, they should have downsized across the board. The problem is the Police association believes in apartheid and would never let a single sworn officer (who has gone through a whopping 19 weeks at Porirua – excuse me for not being amazed when I compare that to the amount of training your average Corporal in the Army has) ever be made redundant.

   4. The problem, does, however, come from National. Judith Collins is a populist b-something-ending-in-itch, and she wanted cops on the street, she wanted more cops out at night (cops at night = fewer cops during daytime when burglaries occur), she wasn’t very interested in major investigations except when the handcuffs came on (as in resourcing the units doing them), and she has a poodle / lapdog in Peter Marshall (who believe me was hailed as the Second Coming until he actually got the job) to do it (yes I know Tolley has the job now but it’s still where Judith made it).

   5. More rotteness: senior female officers retiring / resigning (bad culture at the top). Constantly hiring Poms to do Wellington jobs. The dismantling of NZ’s elite specialist unit, AMCOS, in December 2011 (where was the media when that happened?). The whole OFCANZ fiasco (wherever OFCANZ goes, crooks are delighted because the charges are usually thrown out the next day).

   6. Can’t wait for 2014. If Labour can retake the Treasury Benches, clean out the top cops – remove the poodles and put some men with backbone in – then we have a chance to make NZ safer and better.
   • Tiger Mountain 4.1

     14 July 2012 at 10:32 am

     Boy you really got out the violin ochocinco.

     When the coppers support rather than obstruct democratic protest, when they stop turning up in minutes at workers lawful pickets after a boss’s phone call, when detectives stop being bent, when the thuggish police culture is changed, then possibly “smart” policing might be on the agenda.
     • Murray Olsen 4.1.1

       14 July 2012 at 3:14 pm

       When they’re there to protect the property rights of the rich, that’s what passes for smart policing. After all, what does the life of a woman who’s told to get a taxi when she makes an emergency call mean beside a microphone accidentally left on a restaurant table? How many cops were employed on that one, and for how long?
       • ochocinco 4.1.1.1

         14 July 2012 at 4:40 pm

         The police are a state agency. They aren’t kulaks.
         If you work in a private capitalist firm, you have zero right to criticise, kulak
         • Murray Olsen 4.1.1.1.1

           14 July 2012 at 4:53 pm

           Last time I looked, any citizen had a right to criticise. When was this taken away from us?
         • ` 4.1.1.1.2

           14 July 2012 at 7:18 pm

           I’d be paying serious attention to what Key’s mate Cameron is doing with policing in the UK in handing over services to the private sector. In particular handing them to G4S, which is the crowd that has just failed so spectacularly in sourcing security for the Olympics

           Also…

           Companies on the shortlist include KBR, which helped build the Guantánamo Bay detention camp, and G4S, which has been dogged by allegations of abuse of asylum seekers in its care. It is debatable whether these companies are fit to provide police services to the highly diverse communities of the West Midlands.
   • Draco T Bastard 4.2

     14 July 2012 at 3:13 pm

     Wow, don’t think I’ve ever read such a list of platitudes and slogans…

     Oh, wait, it’s what we always get from National and their stooges.
     • ochocinco 4.2.1

       14 July 2012 at 4:39 pm

       FOR JESUS’S SAKE I JUST CRITICISED NATIONAL

       I JUST SAID, AND I QUOTE
       “6. Can’t wait for 2014. If Labour can retake the Treasury Benches, clean out the top cops – remove the poodles and put some men with backbone in – then we have a chance to make NZ safer and better”
       • ochocinco 4.2.1.1

         14 July 2012 at 4:50 pm

         I also said “4. The problem, does, however, come from National. Judith Collins is a populist b-something-ending-in-itch”
         • Dr Terry 4.2.1.1.1

           15 July 2012 at 4:54 pm

           OK ochocinco, you make a few reasonable points. But what is all this “he-man” stuff about “men with backbone”? We need men and women with brains, for surely you realise that crime statistics fall when criminals learn to be smarter?
       • Kotahi Tane Huna 4.2.1.2

         14 July 2012 at 4:55 pm

         Tin foil hats all ’round.

         We get the cops we deserve.
       • Draco T Bastard 4.2.1.3

         14 July 2012 at 6:06 pm

         1.) Yes it does as it allow them to being able to spend time on the crimes that do happen and thus more likely to catch the criminals. More criminals caught = less crime. Simple, yes, but it does actually work
         2.) Smart policing is a meaningless slogan as we can assume that the police actually know how to do their job. It certainly shouldn’t be up to the politicians to tell them. Oversight, yes, tell them how to do their job, no.
         3.) No they didn’t, NACT needed to raise taxes

         I didn’t actually read beyond there as I was already disgusted with the over-simplified BS.
   • John Connor 4.3

     14 July 2012 at 5:44 pm

     This LEFT cares about police too. We should not be idealists.

     When i write to the local paper about the infiltration of colonist immigrants into bureaucracy including health they wont publish it but they will display the ascent/descent of Maori from time to time

     Im an ex-outlaw (obviously) and it is my perception things are gonna get a little wilder.

     The police must assume extremism eventuating.

     The machine algorithms are polarising the peoples attitudes and beliefs along respective continuums

     Statistics and probabilities is not living and not adaptive enough.

     Current outlaws can only be deprived of liberty for a finite time and outbreed remainder.

     Call it the “Trickle Down Effect of Behaviour”
5. her 5

   14 July 2012 at 10:09 am

   There must be far to many cops. When you have 60 plus cops running around Dotcoms lawn for however long and now they are raiding the daktory every other week which takes a team of cops 8 hours to raid one premises for a bit of pot there is obviously not enough for them to do.
   • mike e 5.1

     14 July 2012 at 10:36 am

     National get tough on crime yeah right!
     Cuts to back room staff are hindering police.
     Auckland police don’t have enough cars.
     Police are fobbing off complaints because it means to much paper work that use to be done by back room staff.
     Police are making more mistakes because of lay off’s in back room staff.
     • ochocinco 5.1.1

       14 July 2012 at 4:49 pm

       Auckland Police have plenty of cars. Sorry.
       Police have always fobbed off complaints 😛
       • mike e 5.1.1.1

         14 July 2012 at 4:54 pm

         Och you are talking BS why does a long serving cop resign because he says the govt is deliberately underfunding police and he dosn’t have enough cars to put his officers on patrol.
6. DH 6

   14 July 2012 at 12:27 pm

   It looks to me like the same problem the rest of the civil service has, that of management bloat and featherbedders protecting their own positions by passing cuts down the ladder. The Police Commissioner gets paid over $500,000, don’t see them calling for his salary to be cut.

   Some rough numbers. In 2011 there were 8626 FTE constables. Allow an average salary of say $70k and that’s a wages bill of $604million. (Could be higher with overtime etc but close enough to work with).

   Law & order cost the Crown $3,382million in 2011. The constables wages of $604m make up only 18% of it. What’s the rest made up of? If they cut police numbers by 10% they’d only save 1.8% of the law enforcement bill, less really since the reduced numbers would do more overtime. Doesn’t make a lot of financial sense to me.

   Interestingly Defence cost only $1,809mil in 2011, and (surely) they have more staff than law enforcement.
   • RedLogix 6.1

     14 July 2012 at 1:24 pm

     The Police Commissioner gets paid over $500,000, don’t see them calling for his salary to be cut.

     Yes. A few weeks ago I had the …’privilege’… of listening to our CEO, who gave himself a $45k pay rise this year, explain to us plebs that we were going to be lucky just to keep pace with inflation.
     • Colonial Viper 6.1.1

       14 July 2012 at 1:38 pm

       I trust it was the Board who approved the CEO’s raise. I wonder what they gifted themselves.
     • DH 6.1.2

       15 July 2012 at 1:14 pm

       The management salary increases are even worse than they look. When the Nats gave the big tax cuts the really big earners got a huge pay rise. A porker troughing $500k off the taxpayer saw their PAYE drop from $185k to $156k. Their real income went from $315,000 to $344,000, that’s a 9.2% pay rise in a single year. And still they demand more.

       Btw when the last Commissioner of Police left he got a “payment of entitlements at last day of duty of $333,398.”. Taxed at the lower rate of course.
   • ochocinco 6.2

     14 July 2012 at 4:45 pm

     Very different funding.

     Average salary for a police staff member is around the 75-80k mark. I recall that 75-80% of police funding goes on personnel, with a smaller chunk of OPEX and very little CAPEX

     Defence has much lower cost per staff member and much larger CAPEX

     National has fucked over Defence and our snivelling media has said nothing. Nothing.
     • mike e 6.2.1

       14 July 2012 at 4:57 pm

       Thats because MSM is backing National because their owners ans advertisers want national in power.
7. Treetop 7

   14 July 2012 at 1:17 pm

   I think I get it where Dimery is coming from, he does not want political influence upsetting his model of being resourced to make gains and to assure the safety of those who he was responsible for.

   Once cops go to the Office of the Commissioner of Police they become politicised, e.g. van der Velde, then they get sent out to be a district commander and become some what brain washed as they no longer listen to people like Dimery. As well they (politicised cops) do not want to give up the feeling of power and cops like Dimery do not want to lose having the power to ensure the community is safe.
8. RedBaron 8

   14 July 2012 at 2:49 pm

   Following on from “ochocinco” (4) it’s not hard to see that the cops will now only pay attention to crimes with an easy to prosecute outcome, those that embarass the ruling party (demos) and those they collect statistics for because if “it isn’t measured then it didn’t happen.” and can be ignored.

   So this is what is behind the ceasing to collect Domestic Violence statistics which really is at complete odds to the spin from Paula Bennett’s mouth about child safety. Welcome back to the right wing future – you can beat the crap out of people who live with you without interference. The same will also go for any other crimes that don’t affect the wealthy, pub brawls, disprderly behaviour etc – there will only be a turn out if there is likely to be property damage.
   • ochocinco 8.1

     14 July 2012 at 4:46 pm

     You can still get Domestic Violence if you’re smart with your OIAs.

     Request the Monthly Information Report, and also request all 1D incidents and violence incidents where the scene was a private dwelling

     🙂

     See, I help, and no doubt I’ll still be accused of being a National stooge when I am basically giving the left the ammo to take on National here.
     • Colonial Viper 8.1.1

       14 July 2012 at 5:27 pm

       that’s clever.
     • Draco T Bastard 8.1.2

       14 July 2012 at 6:09 pm

       But it would still be a hell of a lot better if the stats were just recorded and reported rather than having to go through and OIA request.
9. RedBaron 9

   14 July 2012 at 3:08 pm

   And now to the money. Don’t know if the $3.3billion is only Vote: police or if it includes votes justice, courts and prisons as well.
   Taking a big step backwards, it is money largely consumed by males controlling poor males/poor behaviour (rich male/poor behaviour doesn’t get the same attention) if this is based on a prison population about 95% male??.
   This makes the money spent on the DPB (women looking after children) utterly insignificant so why the animosity towards women on benefits.

   Should we then tax males at a higher rate the females to reflect their cost to society.

   Now I know that is provocative and frankly my favoured solution is home ownership and jobs.
   Nothing like a stake in society to quell some anti social impulses and I’ve always imagined the incentive for crime after a hard day painting the house and mowing the lawns under orders is pretty much gone.
   • ochocinco 9.1

     14 July 2012 at 4:48 pm

     Crime doesn’t just emerge.
     Now, sociological issues are vital, sure, but difficult to solve

     The big issue is organised crime. Organised crime provides drugs (stimulating burglary to pay for it), creates alternative/damaging black markets, and leads to corruption. Organised crime is a cancer at the heart of NZ and in small towns, BP and the MM can run the place.

     So what did National do? Disbanded NZ’s finest anti-organised crime group, AMCOS, last year.
     • Kotahi Tane Huna 9.1.1

       14 July 2012 at 5:14 pm

       “sociological issues are vital, sure, but difficult to solve”

       Disagree. There are plenty of recent examples of improvements in any number of “sociological issues” in any number of countries. The barriers here are political, not tangible.
     • Draco T Bastard 9.1.2

       14 July 2012 at 6:15 pm

       Disbanded NZ’s finest anti-organised crime group, AMCOS, last year.

       Doesn’t sound like a disbanding to me.
10. Treetop 10

    14 July 2012 at 5:55 pm

    This morning Owen Glenn was interviewed by Kim Hill around 8.30 am on RNZ. On Tuesday the Owen Glenn Foundation is going to announce an 8 million dollar package, the main focus is combating child abuse and domestic violence, Otara was mentioned.

    Every dollar that Glenn puts in is a dollar less that the government and police have to find. I am wondering if Glenn’s generosity has something to do with the Waipareira Trust having their funding for families in crisis cut and that Key was tipped off. Were I the Maori Party or Tamihere, I would knock on Glenn’s door for funding and tell the government to shove their too many strings attached dollars.
11. John Connor 11

    14 July 2012 at 5:58 pm

    I live in a small northern, eastern city and consider myself informed on these matters and joe and jenny public have little idea about the spread of OC other than their fearful reactions to reported,recognised or revealed related offending.

    Apparently, according to one of these apocalyptic narratives, the HOPI Indian predicted people fall dead from their own fear of change.

    Yep!

    Only machines do not change their minds. J.E

    Welcome to The Machine. P.F

    welcome my son……

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