Spy vs Spy

Written By: - Date published: 10:47 pm, January 9th, 2017 - 127 comments
Categories: us politics - Tags:

It is MAD.  In the frenzy leading up to Donald Trump’s inauguration, we have the extraordinary spectacle of the CIA interfering in the US election by accusing the Russians of interfering in the same election. The CIA used only to interfere in other people’s elections, including ours when it came to the influence of the Socialist Unity Party. But on the serious side this intervention means the war party hasn’t given up yet, no matter what Trump may say.

127 comments on “Spy vs Spy”

  1. gnomic 1

    It’s a post-reality reality. Why just the other day I read this utterance by a fellow named John Brennan, currently CIA director if I have it correctly.

    “What the Russians have done in Syria in terms of some of the scorched-earth policy that they have pursued that have led to devastation and thousands upon thousands of innocent deaths, that’s not something that the United States would ever do in any of these military conflicts.”

    Shurely shome mistake here? The director must be misspeaking himself? Or perhaps it is just part of the current tendency by those in authority to spout absolute twaddle and expect to be given credence.

    Furthermore the director quoth:

    ” And the United States is the global superpower, remains so. And what they need to worry about is how are they going to ensure that they’re able to monitor what’s going on around the world, protect U.S. national security interests, not overcommit, and also make sure that the policy course that they stake out is one that has near-term interests in mind, but also longer-term strategic goals and objectives of the United States.”

    As Nobel Peace Prize winner Henry Kissinger is reputed to have said:

    “America has no permanent friends or enemies, only interests”

    Oddly enough I have never felt inclined to trust the CIA, or indeed any of the spooks around the world. But perhaps I am just extraordinarily cynical? Maybe it was ‘extraordinary rendition’ that shook my faith in our leaders and their intelligence agencies. Not to mention extrajudicial execution.

  2. Huginn 2

    Mike, it’s an inteligence analysis, not an action plan.

    The Iraq and wmd’s were an attempt to persuade us of something for which there was virtually no evidence. Not only that, but the people charged with finding that evidence were telling us that they were sceptical.

    This is different because there is heaps of circumstantial evidence of Russian involvement that was available to us before the IC reports were tabled.

    -The analysis of the phishing email that let the hackers in, and was subsequently dumped with the rest of Podesta’s emails.

    -The Crowdstrike report.

    -The scale of the attack on the Democrats. It wasn’t just the Presidential election. Hacking and strategic dumping happened at State level as well – so this wasn’t one person pissed off with HRC – it was a massively resourced organisation with a specific political focus.

    -Trump’s behaviour; his attitude towards Putin. The weird coincidence with the language I hear from European fascists and Brexiteers.

    -The self – congratulatory jubilation of the Russians immediately after the election results came in. Alexandr Dugin gloating ‘Washington is ours’.

    The US IC report only confirms what many of us have come to suspect after months of watching this slow-motion train smash. They can intercept and read the emails the Russians were sending to each other; they know the Russians pet name for Trump; they drew the line between Gucifer, Assange, and RT, that the Russians have similar caches of information harvested from the Republicans, and so on.

    We got a taste of this in the NZ 2014 Elections. I think about the way I felt about that, and I have no trouble understanding the complacency that I’ve been seeing in Republicans at the moment.

    This is not a case for going to war; the US IC are not acting autonomously here. They are sounding the alarm – like they’re supposed to do. And we need to take notice because it’s going to happen again. It may even become a feature of the way elections are fought.

    • lprent 2.1

      +1

      My thoughts exactly. Hacks are usually difficult to pin to anyone. You’d be daft to leave fingerprints everywhere.

      There is sufficient evidence to show that it had to be a well-resourced and very widespread set of hacks and hacking attempts targeted at the political establishments.

      There is just enough evidence to point to the particular Russian groups who have been doing this in the states on their geographical periphery and in some of the NATO states for the last decade. And I can’t think of any other state player who has the skills and the motivations to target this particular set of objectives apart from Russia and maybe the Israelis (and I can’t think what the latter would think that they would get out of it).

      On the other side, there is no evidence that the Russians didn’t do it. Sure I notice some of the pathetic excuses being offered – but they fit exactly within the classic FSB playlist of plausible denability and confusion. Think of their idiotic denials for the invasion of Crimea, Eastern Ukraine, and the targeting of the Baltic states computer infrastructure. So the Russians are by far the most probable suspects, and bearing in mind this isn’t a court, I’m just going to treat them as the perpetrators of a direct deliberate attack on the democratic processes of another country.

      And Mike, this isn’t the CIA figuring it this way. I think this way. The tech geekdom think this way. And we’re going to act like they did do it. The bullshit artists on the net may not. But they’re illiterate in the ways that the net runs and therefore quite ineffectual.

      This isn’t like the US intelligence fuckups on Iraq back in 2002. If you read the tech critics who know what they’re talking about, they are criticising the way that the muffheads in the US intelligence community are presenting it and especially the ‘evidence’ that they are presenting (real kiddie stuff).

      But they are not saying that the hacks weren’t there, that weren’t systematic and by a state, the Russians didn’t do it or that they aren’t the most likely suspects.

      The problem is that now the useless fuckers at the Kremlin have done this, it is going to be common and increasingly cheaper to do this kind of computer stupidity over the next decade.

      We’re going to have to harden up our political infrastructure in NZ. Which is going to be hard to get right because (as you are aware) damn near every political operative and ALL politicians are gormless technophobes with the scattering instincts of brain dead cats. They’re going to panic or go into daft denial.

      • Colonial Viper 2.1.1

        Bill Binney says that the US has had programmes to weaken the security of encryption around the world as well as introduce backdoors into hardware and software used globally.

        He says this makes it far easier for foreign powers to get into systems because the US has built in these weakenesses for its own agencies to use.

        He says that this demonstrates the ‘finite short sighted thinking’ of the NSA cyberwarfare approach.

        My thoughts exactly. Hacks are usually difficult to pin to anyone. You’d be daft to leave fingerprints everywhere.

        Yet apparently the incompetent Russians left Cyrillic characters everywhere to be found. Or perhaps it was just another frame up by the CIA to make it look like Russian hackers.

        The NSA would have the exact details of when data was being extracted from DNC servers, where that data went across the internet, and what that data was. Where is that evidence.

      • Anne 2.1.2

        Thanks lprent and Huginn and the other commentators here who have been trying so hard to get the message through. As one of those “gormless technophobes” (no not a politician) as lprent so delicately described us, I have to rely on those I know have the expert knowledge for guidance.

        Its obvious the Ruskies have now upped the game to dangerous levels and the rest of the world has to follow suit. Ironic that Russia has provided the justification for intelligence agencies around the world to be able to demand an even greater share of the national cake – a share we would far rather was spent on health, education and social programmes to assist the needy.

        • Adrian Thornton 2.1.2.1

          You do realize that more time is being spent on the origin of the leaks than the content, the content that exposed the DNC as being a cesspool of cronyism, that gave the election to a baboon, the DNC that is just about to reelect itself back into all the positions of power, all the while the media has directed the spotlight on to the Russians, and here we are…
          I mean seriously, the vice chair of the DNC is unbelievably still Donna Brazile, the same Donna Brazile that got caught ( through these leaks) giving the debate questions to Hillary so got fired from CNN, still the Vice chair of the party, that is the real issue here, no one has debated the validity of the information contained in the emails.

          • lprent 2.1.2.1.1

            You are way too narrow and shortsighted.

            What happens when the same tactics by state players are employed in other upcoming elections.

            Just off the top of my head; we are liable to see hard fought elections in France, Germany, and here in New Zealand this year. There will be others fought in countries of the world that don’t have the opposition repressive tactics of Russia or Turkey or a number of other one party states.

            With your attention firmly stuffed up the arsehole of completed election in the USA, you probably haven’t considered the downstream implications for other societies.

            You really do look that stupid…

            • KJT 2.1.2.1.1.1

              And the USA have not been interfering for decades?

              Including funding publicity agencies for NACT.

              • Colonial Viper

                And grooming our up and coming MPs with trips, scholarships, access to US officials, etc.

            • Adrian 2.1.2.1.1.2

              Actually I would say you look stupid, very stupid.
              By focusing on this totally unsubstantiated claim, and not focusing on actually substantiated truth that the the neo libral free market left project is dead and not pushing hard at reforming the Left away from it’s current centrist (losing) political positions, is the reason why we will lose to the right across Europe as in the US.

              That stupid and sad.

              • Colonial Viper

                The new authoritarianism and censorship is going to come from “we know better than you” illiberal liberals.

                • McFlock

                  There’s a difference between a pseudo-Socratic acceptance of the individual limits of one’s direct personal knowledge, and the ego-driven ignorance that makes you shill for a piece of shit who made:

                  a Keystone pipeline supporter his nominee for Secretary of Native Affairs,
                  a charter schools lobbyist his nominee for Education Secretary, and
                  a climate change denier as head of the Environmental Protection Agency.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    as someone famous once said, elections have consequences.

                    Better luck in 2020. Make sure the Democratic nominee bothers to set foot in Wisconsin this time, instead of taking the state and its 6M residents for granted.

                    • McFlock

                      Yeah, that’s right, toryboy. Don’t even try to defend the indefensible, just gloat about your Pyrrhic victory.

                    • In what sense is it Pyrrhic? He wanted a right-wing nationalist demagogue to start dismantling liberalism in the US, and that’s what’s happened. The consequences of handing over the most powerful country on the planet to a capricious narcissist will fill CV with pleasure, not horror – just “victory” will do.

                    • McFlock

                      Yeah, but I reckon Trump’s such a numpty he’ll end up in massive confrontation with China, Russia, or possibly both.

                      CV wants to see the West burn, but I’m not sure he wants China and Russia taken down with it. If the biggest consumer market in the world collapses again, who will buy Chinese-made iphones?

        • Morrissey 2.1.2.2

          Its obvious the Ruskies have now upped the game to dangerous levels…

          With respect, Anne, it is not obvious at all. There is no evidence that Russia interfered in the U.S. election.

          https://www.democracynow.org/2017/1/5/glenn_greenwald_on_dearth_of_evidence

          • One Anonymous Bloke 2.1.2.2.1

            Meanwhile, the Republican say there is. The Democrats say there is. The white supremacist pro-Putin PEOTUS says there is. The UK says there is, and Lprent has provided lots of context from the industry.

            You haven’t seen “proof”? Next thing you’ll be telling us the science isn’t settled.

            • Bill 2.1.2.2.1.1

              The war mongering Russophobes in the US Senate and Congress choose to believe.

              Trump dampened things while giving himself plenty of wriggle room by conceding ‘Russia’ – ie, not the Russian government – may have been the source.

              Not only is there no hard evidence being produced by anyone that would lay it all down at the feet of Putin or the Kremlin…no other possible avenue has been explored, yet alone exhausted.

              But that’s the thing when you have a story and you’re just looking to shoehorn ‘facts’ into a conclusions you’ve already arrived at. Conjecture and speculation take on a life of their own.

              It’s a WMD redux but with a huge dose of McCarthyism thrown in on top. And it’s that latter bit that should have everyone standing up and demanding that every possible avenue of inquiry is thoroughly explored and then, when that’s done, and unless some concrete evidence is produced, the Intelligence Community and who-ever in the Senate and who-ever in the Congress and whatever various media should keep schtum, or at least admit their conjecture is just that – conjecture – and stop trying to whip up a frenzy.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                Yeah, back to this “proof” business again. Is this the third or fourth day? I forget.

                You can choose any one of my previous responses to your point, or Lprent’s for that matter. It won’t make a blind bit of difference to your opinion though.

                PS: “choosing to believe” – you have no basis for that statement, since you aren’t and will never be party to the briefings they’ve received. Nice frame though. It suits your preconceived position and everything. I’ll stick with the balance of probabilities if it’s all the same to you.

                • Bill

                  My opinion is that no-one knows who hacked the DNC or Podesta. They are the only individuals and institutions hacked according to Clapper just the other day btw.

                  My opinion is that stating something to be the case – as fact – especially when it carries the potential for utterly deleterious consequences as this does, has to be done from a rock solid basis.

                  Somewhere down or up the thread Sanctuary opines that thousands or even millions ought to die off the back of this. If that opinion was a mad fringe one, then it might be over-looked. But it’s not. There are extreme war mongers in powerful positions pushing this Russian line.

                  You’re essentially opting to be on their side (even if just by default) because of some shaky conjecture. Is that really the rational choice you want to be making? Even given your professed 30% confidence rating on stuff the Intelligence Services claim? (Or was that meaning you believe one in three things they say depending on your ideology?)

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    …a rock solid basis…

                    …which you will never be party to, nor take anyone’s word for.

                    Those with more at stake (like Lprent for eg) will not wait for your approval, nor should they, for reasons outlined over the last four days (and possibly the next four, too).

                    By your ‘logic’, if I am opting to be on ‘their’ side, you are on Putin’s. ‘Logic’ isn’t everything.

                    Sanctuary is wrong: no-one has to die. At least we agree on that. Perhaps neither of us are taking sides.

                    As for confidence in spooks, I don’t think you really have a clue about the difference between acceptance of probability, and belief. Either that or it suits your argument to pretend cluelessness.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      …a rock solid basis…

                      …which you will never be party to, nor take anyone’s word for.

                      Julian Assange, Bill Binney, Murray Craig, Ray McGovern have all said (or strongly implied) that it’s an internal leak and not a hack.

                      Julian Assange and Murray Craig have direct knowledge of the matter. They are the proverbial horses mouth.

                      None of the Intelligence Community’s fact free assertions have addressed this point with actual evidence of a hack.

                    • Bill

                      A community with a history of peddling deceit makes claims to honesty. The same community, that has a history of ineptitude, is claiming to be ‘on point’; that has come up with stories and contorted reality to fit their narrative protesteth “Not this time gov – Honest!”.

                      Why would I or anyone take them at their word?

                      Demanding something a bit better than conjecture isn’t to ‘side with’ Putin (whatever that means in this context) or the Kremlin or anyone else for that matter. Fuck knows how you arrived at that conclusion.

                      If the warmongers (or who-ever in Congress and the Senate) and the Intelligence Community, and the broad swathe of western media had done the exact same wavy armed shit and screamed blue murder at (insert any person/org of your choosing) on the basis they are screaming blue murder at Putin and the Kremlin, then my reaction would be the same.

                      You don’t want international friction and the US potentially ‘tooling up’ convenient adversaries of Russia (because no-one has to die)? Then best to ditch this nonsense of blithely accepting the US Intelligence Community at its word. They have a rather chequered history of grubby and grubbier OAB.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      @Bill: A community with a history of peddling deceit…

                      …would be too easily discounted. The fact that deceit isn’t the only thing they peddle (cf: the maybe too generous 30% credibility rating I mentioned) makes discounting them more difficult. I note that your information comes at least in part from RT.

                      Fuck knows how you arrived at that conclusion.

                      I didn’t: you did, when you asserted that I was taking sides “by default”.

                      Blithely accepting.

                      Once a-fuckin’gain: acknowledgement of probability is not acceptance, let alone blithe acceptance.

                      I don’t take them at their word, Bill. However, you appear to be arguing that 100% of their statements are false. If that were true, what sort of spies would they be? (Hint: the answer is “dead ones” – read Sun Tzu for further clarification.)

                    • Bill

                      @ OAB.

                      No idea why you’re thinking my comments/info come from rt. (Because I don’t ‘follow the line’?) I don’t think I’ve referenced or used a single rt link in anything I’ve said today, or even viewed or read anything from rt today. I don’t tend to watch or read much rt, though when I do I generally find it’s far more informative and in-depth than most of ‘our’ TV.

                      From memory, I’ve used some tech pages/journals (Mostly for this comment).

                      I used a youtube link that came through my fb feed (posted in the same comment referred to above)

                      That aside, for the most part I’ve just been applying common sense, healthy skepticism and comparing the hullabaloo with past instances of similar shit (Most obviously WMD).

                      And I have to keep reminding myself amidst all the media hysteria and the arm waving and the finger pointing, that all we are talking about is a political party’s emails hitting the public arena and Podesta emails hitting the public arena. That’s it. There’s nothing else. Those two things are the ‘institutions and individuals’ that Clapper was referring to. He acknowledged that in the questioning in the youtube clip I provided.

                      But lets talk up retaliation against (for the US est) an institutional enemy on the grounds that hacking groups that may have been acting out of Russia and using codes developed in Russia (though accessible by anyone anywhere in the world with the right knowledge )….now that we’ve renamed those groups with more fitting Russophobic names than they had before, and are assumming – contending that they’re connected to the Russian government (although that was far from an assumption previously) …yeah. Yeah! They stole ‘our’ emails because…because, well hey… No-one else would possibly have any motive for launching a phishing attack on the DNC or Podesta – Nosireee! Unthinkable! Didn’t happen! Putin bad! Rt bad! Point east! Kiss the kids and be brave! 😉

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      🙄

              • Liberal Realist

                Great comment, my thoughts exactly. Thank you Bill.

        • reason 2.1.2.3

          From the perfectly named non-fiction book, ” Killing Hope”-US Military and CIA Interventions Since WWII- by William Blum

          ….”If you flip over the rock of American foreign policy of the past century, this is what crawls out… invasions … bombings … overthrowing governments … occupations … suppressing movements for social change … assassinating political leaders … perverting elections … manipulating labor unions … manufacturing “news” … death squads … torture … biological warfare … depleted uranium … drug trafficking … mercenaries …” …..

          Given the fact Hillary was comparing Putin to Hitler …….

          And given the fact the ‘He’s like Hitler’, is always the standard propaganda label used before the u.s.a starts bombing and killing …..

          Maybe e-mail leaks on Hillary are actually a very very mild form of pro-active defense …….

          It’s a shame she was not leaked about before she and Obama stuck a bayonet
          into all the woman, children and people of Libya ….. they destroyed that country and turned it into a head chopping Jihad paradise ……….

          Or as Hillary Caesar said “we came, we saw, he died …….. teh he he ”

          Watch their latest effort defending their latest coup …. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW1WDbDX7wE

          I can’t make up my mind which is worse from the u.s.a …………. supporting Fascist ……………….. or supporting Muslim extremists.

          Isis or Nazis ?????

          I suppose where one lives would determine which one is more of a threat …..

          Personally I hate Nazis more …..

      • Bill 2.1.3

        My thoughts exactly. Hacks are usually difficult to pin to anyone. You’d be daft to leave fingerprints everywhere.

        Cyrillic script in the code. Date stamps. IP addresses….all pointing to Russia (though not the Kremlin) and left there by the “daft” Russian Intelligence Services if what you’re contending is to be believed.

        APT 28 and APT 29 are designations ascribed to particular hacking groups by FireEye that Crowdstrike reckons with only medium confidence is associated with the GRU. But let’s give those groups new names like ‘Fancy Bear’ and ‘Cozy Bear’ because the former names for the hacking communities using those pieces of malware… ‘Hammertoss’ (APT 29) and ‘Sandworm’ (APT 28) don’t quite cut the mustard in this present atmosphere.

        And let’s assume that the GRU (for some reason only known to themselves) decided to leave a pile of markers or fingerprints all over everything this time around. And let’s pretend that no-one other than the GRU has access to the malware (no ‘dark web’). And let’s pretend that no-one other than the GRU would have any motivation for hacking into the DNC.

        And it’s a wrap.

        btw. Under questioning from Sen Cotton (rep) just the other day, Clapper and Admiral Rodgers can’t add any organisations or individuals to their list of ‘hacked entities’ beyond the DNC and Podesta

        edit. Cotton also makes some pretty salient observations on Trump being supposedly and unquestionable ‘better’ for Russia than a Dem president.

        • Colonial Viper 2.1.3.1

          APT 28 and APT 29 are designations ascribed to particular hacking groups by FireEye that Crowdstrike reckons with only medium confidence is associated with the GRU.

          iirc Bill Binney says that these two groups have been Cast Iron targets by the NSA since 2013.

          So the NSA has every single detail that about these two groups IT systems and interactions on the internet dating back to at least then.

          Where is the evidence.

        • Conal 2.1.3.2

          Half the IP addresses are those of Tor exit nodes. The “report” is not half as convincing as “they” want you to believe.

          • lprent 2.1.3.2.1

            FFS. Do you even know what TOR is or why you’d use it to conceal your tracks?

            Let me give you a hint. It is one of the main access nets for any covert networks, usually just criminal. But open to anyone.

            Fool.

            • Conal 2.1.3.2.1.1

              “Do you even know what Tor is?”

              Really? Given that HALF of my comment was a link to an article that included an explanation of what Tor is, I have to conclude that once again you couldn’t be bothered to engage your brain and instead decided just to vent your spleen.

              Yes, yes, yes, I know you’re a computer programmer; you boast about it often enough. It doesn’t make you technically omniscient, and it doesn’t excuse you from the tedious work of engaging intellectually with (≠ abusing) people whom you disagree with.

              Well … of course you can continue to prance around on your high horse and disdainfully sneer at those you imagine must be your technical inferiors, but have you considered instead taking the approach of assuming that people may actually know something about what they write? That it may be worthwhile to engage with other people’s arguments, and hold a civil discussion, with give and take, and eventually come at the truth through the clash of ideas? Apparently not.

              In our interactions so far, I’m struck by the fact that your immediate recourse is not to reasoned argumentation, but to personal abuse, and to me this is not a recommendation to engage with you; it’s just a form of trolling, albeit one legitimated by your administrative position here at the Standard.

          • Conal 2.1.3.2.2

            For those (like lprent) who don’t understand the significance of the “bad” IP addresses actually being Tor exit nodes, the point is this: Tor is a private network which anonymises the communications sent through it. Packets of information passing through the network are routed in a deliberately obscure way, so that when a packet of information leaves Tor (via an “exit node”), it appears for all the world to have originated at the address of that node, rather than from its actual origin. This is why it’s absurd (and technically illiterate) to suggest that these IP addresses constitute a kind of “digital fingerprint” of specific groups of Russian state hackers. Yes Russian state hackers may use Tor, but so do many thousands of other people; and not just hackers and criminals, but people with concern for their privacy, including for totally legitimate reasons (journalists, whistleblowers, etc).

            The article in The intercept I linked to is an amusing story where the journalist (himself a user of the Tor browser), is searching his access logs to see if any these “bad” IPs were reading the Intercept, and finds to his amazement that thousands and thousands of accesses were coming from those addresses, and eventually discovering that unbeknownst to himself he was in fact one of them, because he was a Tor user.

      • tc 2.1.4

        Yes what does Clare curran think….cant wait to hear/sarc

        Excellent analysis lprent and I wouldnt put it past the israleis and the CIA having a big hand in this smearing the ruskies.

      • seeker 2.1.5

        @lprent 8.36am

        “there is sufficient evidence to show…”

        and here is another report headlined:

        UK intelligence gave US key tip off about Russian hacking

        https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/07/russia-us-election-hacking-uk-intelligence

      • Mike Smith 2.1.6

        Sorry have been busy getting the hot water system fixed.
        I was not referring to hacking, but to leaking by the CIA and their links to the same US mainstream media https://consortiumnews.com/2017/01/09/the-post-truth-mainstream-media/ that have been most thrown by the result of the presidential election. I have no doubt that every government hacks, including ours, hence spy vs spy.
        This to me looks like a classic disinformation campaign by the CIA of which there have been many in the years since it was formed. Like all such, they are based on a grain of truth. But that does not mean that they should be believed in their entirety, or the reasons why they may be doing this remaining unquestioned. Chaff and straw, woods and trees come to mind – “look over here!”
        To me the threat of war is the main concern. I’ve seen the effect of these propaganda campaigns before – I was in Canada in early 2002 and saw the endless repetition on the US news that made it clear the decision to invade Iraq had already been taken as I reported when I returned. The current level of sustained hype about the Russians concerns me – far more than dancing Cossacks!.

        • Bill 2.1.6.1

          from your link – President Obama has just signed into law a “National Defense” bill that includes $160 million for new U.S. propaganda operations, nominally designed to counter “Russian propaganda.” But the Keystone Cops PropOrNot operation suggests that this escalation of U.S. information warfare will produce more blacklists, trolling, hacking, denial-of-service attacks and demonization of alternative, independent media by U.S. military psy-ops, “intelligence” agencies and P.R. firms, which will be loyally amplified and reinforced by censorship, rote repetition and circular analysis in the echo chamber of the corporate media, including by “social media” corporations like Facebook.

          And more, better funding for the smoother operating of future ‘shell’ groups like the White Helmets. I mean, they did not bad with that one. A conduit for funding (public and private) that wound up in the hands of supposed official enemies (Al Nusra etc). A ‘go to’ source for western outlets that then produced and disseminated convenient news/prop. Even managed to elevate them into the position of being potential Nobel Peace Prize winners.

        • lprent 2.1.6.2

          Oh – the intelligence community in the US have been their usual inane selves at presenting what they have. Hard not to when you release statements by committee while trying not to show capabilities.

          I am far more concerned with the actual hacking rather than war. On the general basis that even a idiotic and ignorant munter like Trump is unlikely to press the button on a state with as many nukes and delivery systems as the Russian Fed without a pile of people jumping on him.

          This intelligence round doesn’t look anything like the Iraq one. Way too inept. Nit enough trace of coordinated PR. Even Whaleoil used to be better at it than what we are seeing from Washington.

          I am far more worried about the hacking getting repeated whereever open elections are being held.

          • Bill 2.1.6.2.1

            Am I getting this right Lynn?

            You’re more concerned about a who-ever/whatever putting the email account material of a political party into the public domain than you are about any claims as to who or what might be culpable of doing that eventually leading to international, and possibly military, confrontation?

      • Nic the NZer 2.1.7

        I saw a number of interviews with John McAfee about the evidence of Russian Hacking (on mainstream and non-mainstream sources). Does he qualify as ‘tech geekdom’ think this way? Because he appears to agree with CV.

        BTW, if we are looking for evidence that ‘the Russians didn’t do it’ how much evidence do you think there is going around that ‘the New Zealanders didn’t do it’? There can’t be much, because its essentially impossible to demonstrate such an event was not perpetrated by a state.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 2.1.7.1

          Acquaint yourself with his recent bio before attaching too much credibility to the things John McAfee says.

          Lprent’s answered your other question here.

          • Nic the NZer 2.1.7.1.1

            No, in fact all the ‘evidence’ layed down in that comment fails to points John McAfee raised during interviews I saw. In fact this is what LPrent says, its all circumstantial as no intelligence agency would leave such a rudimentary trail pointing to themselves.

            As far as i can see the ‘tech geekdom’ don’t present any better case than the official case (the Russia prefers Trump therefore they did it one).

    • Colonial Viper 2.2

      Mike, it’s an inteligence analysis, not an action plan.

      As wikileaks says, it’s not an “intelligence report” it’s a press release. And it reads like one.

      http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-09/wikileaks-press-conference-post-mortem-cia-issued-press-release-not-intelligence-rep

      This is different because there is heaps of circumstantial evidence of Russian involvement that was available to us before the IC reports were tabled.

      You’re making the rookie mistake of believing that a pile of circumstantial evidence adds up to the strength of just two or three (missing) actual facts.

      Is there reason to be suspicious – yes. Is there proof – no.

      BTW why have we heard NOTHING from the “Intelligence Community” about the Chinese leadership’s attitude to who they wanted to win the US election?

      Or in fact, NOTHING from them about the ISRAELI leadership’s attitude to who they wanted to win the US election?

      Because we know that each of those foreign countries likely held very strong partisan views and both those foreign countries have hacking skills at least equal to the Russians.

      What do you think we can deduce from the fact that the RUSSOPHOBIC angle is the only angle coming out of the “IC”?

      The US IC report only confirms what many of us have come to suspect after months of watching this slow-motion train smash. They can intercept and read the emails the Russians were sending to each other; they know the Russians pet name for Trump; they drew the line between Gucifer, Assange, and RT, that the Russians have similar caches of information harvested from the Republicans, and so on.

      All this is bullshit.

      Firstly this US IC report confirms fuck all. It contains long lists of assertions. With their “evidence” being the a bunch of high school level gossip about who appeared to like whom and why they appeared to say what they said.

      Secondly about reading the Russian emails – OK since this capability is out in the open let’s see the emails between Russian officials who were manipulating this election interference proving their involvement. That would be actual “evidence”. Where is it?

      they know the Russians pet name for Trump

      Oh FFS. So the US have a low level consular official in Moscow look at Russian talk shows all day and they figured out what their nickname for Trump is. This proves something? The height of CIA spycraft is it?

      they drew the line between Gucifer, Assange, and RT

      Let’s see the proof then. Julian Assange, Craig Murray, Bill Binney, Ray McGovern and others are all adament that the DNC emails resulted from an internal LEAK not a foreign HACK.

      that the Russians have similar caches of information harvested from the Republicans, and so on.

      BULLSHIT. Reince Priebus confirmed that RNC system security was intact and that there had been no breaches. Unlike Podesta, no one at the RNC was stupid enough to click on an email phishing link and give away their password.

      Further the NSA track every single data packet which crosses the internet. If the Russians hacked and extracted RNC data from RNC servers over the internet, then the NSA would be able to provide copies of exactly what was taken, from where, and when.

      Let’s see the fucking evidence instead of more fact free “analysis” and fact free “conclusions”.

      • mickysavage 2.2.1

        Three comments:

        1. Tone the language down.
        2. This is not a criminal trial where individual liberty is at stake. Notions of “proof” are not really relevant. If there is a risk the Russian Government,ent has been involved in political upheaval of the US system through hacks then the US government should take action. It is called the precautionary principle.
        3. I still don’t understand your logic. You seem to say that the Clintons are terrible people so had it coming to them. Shouldn’t we insist on minimum standards of behaviour being observed by all?

        • Colonial Viper 2.2.1.1

          And the obvious CIA political plays to delegitimise the incoming Trump Administration like leaking their briefing to NBC first before giving it to Trump?

          If there is a risk the Russian Government,ent has been involved in political upheaval of the US system through hacks then the US government should take action. It is called the precautionary principle.

          But what is the “action” being suggested? Is it to identify why the FBI, NSA and CIA failed to protect the IT systems of key political organisations in the USA?

          Or is it to ramp up economic, diplomatic and military aggression against Russia, in order to box in an incoming Trump Administration which does not want to continue neocon hawkish escalation against Russia?

          I can understand what is “precautionary” about the former, but none of the DC set is talking about the former, they are all talking about the latter.

          PS do you think the US hacks Russian political party servers? Should Russia start talking up confrontation with the US if they do (of course they do).

          • Clump_AKA Sam 2.2.1.1.2

            Did any one see the tweet from trump complaining about this report being leaked to msnbc (not sure if that’s the right station) before any in the White House received a copy.

            The colonels are out manoeuvring the generals and the King (trump) there will be hell to pay. The CIA/FBI are in active revolution.

            May the CIA rein of terror be short and bloody

            Edit: CV beat me to it

            • Colonial Viper 2.2.1.1.2.1

              This is it

              @realDonaldTrump

              Before I, or anyone, saw the classified and/or highly confidential hacking intelligence report, it was leaked out to @NBCNews. So serious!

            • Rob Gilchrist 2.2.1.1.2.2

              I think he’s referring to the intelligence documentation that has come out recently calling him among other things, a pervert. But personally I don’t think it’s a genuine report.

              I’m rather confident that document is fake. I’m no Trump fan but the story on the report says something like it’s from a former Brit Spy – D I doesn’t say who he worked for but I guess MI6.

              After looking over the docs, it’s nothing like any Intel Report I’ve even seen. And I’ve seen a written a few.

              I don’t have time to pull it to bits, but will if enough people want it, but here’s my brief summary:

              The document isn’t laid out anything like a Intel Report, or even a gist report. So the format is the main thing that leads me to believe it’s fake.

              Now, what would this guy know I hear you ask… Well as our Intelligence services are based on MI6 MI6 and most other police or military. Our agencies follow very similar protocols and procedures… Including the way Intel reports, Gist reports etc are written. So NZ Intel reports are based in format / layout on the UK Intel Reports.

              This doc looks nothing like a genuine Intel report written by a person who should know what one not only looks like, but how it should be formatted.

              So, the format is just wrong, although it looks like they (the writers tried however) Them comes the content. It’s not written in a way that someone trained to write these reports would do. It’s shit, really. Like I said. I’m willing to go through it bit by bit and show you the mistakes, incorrect use of terms, lack of using real terms. Making comments wrapped in ()

              So, I don’t think this is a silver bullet. It’s fake, obviously written by people who knew enough to put the content together, and leak it. I’m not going to answer who I think it is. But the way things are sharpening up, this won’t be the last one of these.

              Again, if people want a full synopsis of the leaked report and why I think it’s fake, just ask and I’ll go through it bit by bit.

              Rob Gilchrist

              • Clump_AKA Sam

                You should know more than I that there are only so many ways to suppress and every one hits on the same tool seeing as the whole community is based on the Stasi. That’s a problem seeing as those same techniques failed to see whole USSR armoured divisions defecting when the wall came down. It’s ironic that a brutal police state with in a state could treat the west like amateurs. And nothing has changed.

                I for one am over being nice. No one bought in to this report anywhere in the world. Why this sector was given priority in terms of funds, when our perceived enemy (that’s if you buy this dribble) are spending on real infrastructure ie road rail and energy is beyond me because I can go and find earnings reports from my bedroom on these companies for free.

  3. peterh 3

    What is the US going to do, if they ever find that, a large German living in NZ ,may well have had a hand in Clintons Emails releases for 18 months, he has been saying it would happen

    • Bill 3.1

      …a large German living…,

      Now that would be kind of ….what’s the word?

      Anyway. That wonderful possibility aside, if a more informed electorate is preferable to a less or mis-informed electorate (as I’m sure most liberal democrats would agree), and if these hacks/leaks swung an election, then that would have to be viewed as a good thing, yes? (ie – a more informed electorate made a more informed decision).

      Conversely, if the leaks/hacks had no influence, then what’s all the noise about?

      Because see – apart from some emails hitting the public domain, it seems there’s displeasure that media outlets have been acting as media outlets.

      • Andre 3.1.1

        In this case all the leaked information was entirely one-sided and used to reinforce an existing bullshit attack on Hillary. EEEEE-Mails. In terms of actual content, there wasn’t anything surprising. I’m surprised how anodyne it all was, nothing really juicy. Which didn’t stop malicious kooks fabricating things like pizzagate out of it. Had the Republican equivalent stuff been released the actual content would likely have been similar.

        More transparency is generally a good thing. But in this case the one-sidedness of it gave the misleading impression of smoke on one side but not the other. Which increased the level of misinformation, rather than contributing to better informing the electorate.

        • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.1

          In terms of actual content, there wasn’t anything surprising. I’m surprised how anodyne it all was, nothing really juicy.

          Yep. All this fuss is simply about delegitimising the incoming Trump administration.

          As for no Republican email leaks/hacks:

          a) The Republicans did not have the equivalent of a burnt out Bernie Bro who was pissed off enough to leak emails because he saw first hand the Clinton camp’s underhanded treatment of Bernie Sanders

          b) No Republicans were stupid enough to click on an email phishing scam like Podesta and his IT helpers were.

          • red-blooded 3.1.1.1.1

            Bullshit. The Republican Party was full of people desperate to avoid a Trump candidacy. And yet no “leaks” from that side? I don’t buy it.

            • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.1.1.1

              Assange did say that wikileaks had received about 3 pages of Republican Party material, but they weren’t worth publishing because it would never have made a ripple compared to all the bad press Trump’s behaviour was generating for himself on a daily basis.

              • red-blooded

                So, only publish material against the reasonable candidate? The one who’s doing a good job? Great thinking!

                Again, rubbish.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Or maybe its because Hillary Clinton had threatened to get Assange droned. Anyways.

                  Clinton was doing such a “good job” she lost counties who had voted Barack Hussein Obama twice, took the state of Wisconsin for granted never visiting there, and lost that too.

                  • red-blooded

                    Hey, you’re the one who put forward the (unconvincing) excuse that the “leaks” were so one-sided because Trump was such a public embarrassment. Surely that would make the Republicans MORE likely to send in leaks rather than less (resulting in more than “about 3 pages”).

        • Bill 3.1.1.2

          The info wasn’t ‘one-sided’. It was straight from the horses mouth as it were.

          I’ll believe you when you say there was nothing much in the emails. I didn’t read them. But as I said before, the fact that the Democrats and others initially jumped up and down claiming that they were false and doctored and whatever and then backed down from that position may have created an impression in some people that there was something in there after-all. (Assuming the email leaks did exert an influence).

          So going on your take on the emails, we have a genuine “nothing to see here” being transformed into a ‘smoking gun’ by the Democratic Party .

          Pizza-gate came from Podesta’s emails which were subject of a phishing scam way back in March btw.

        • Morrissey 3.1.1.3

          EEEEE-Mails.

          From South Yorkshire?

          • Cemetery Jones 3.1.1.3.1

            Reminds me of the MH17 coverage I heard a while back: “the Ukrainians have Buks, the Russians have Buks, but there is some doubt as to whether the rebels have Buks”. All I could think was ‘No Buks? No wonder they’re rebelling – even Barnsley had a library.’

  4. mike 4

    ‘a more informed electorate made a more informed decision’
    That’s right, and three million more of them voted for Clinton

    • Colonial Viper 4.1

      Exactly, that’s the brilliance of the Russian hacking scheme.

      It won Trump only those votes he needed in the rust belt states he needed. It was carefully designed not to affect any California votes for Clinton. Further it sneakily deleted Clinton campaign stops in states like Wisconsin which she eventually lost by never even setting foot inside the state.

  5. Adrian Thornton 5

    The only truth is, at this stage none of us know whether these allegations are true or not. But this is for sure, anyone who was/is against the invasions of Afghanistan/Iraq cannot take these US state department allegations at face value.
    More evidence has to be revealed, otherwise it is all pure conjecture.

    However we do know that America has been aggressively interfering in foreign elections and promoting/supporting regime changes around world.
    According to even Wikipedia the US has been involved in over 31 regime changes since the beginning of last century.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change

    I don’t want to get into America bashing here, but just to get a little balance and historical context on the fine art of screwing over other countries, let’s just wind back the clock a touch, and remember this little gem, American (and Chinese) support and protection of the Khmer Rouge, post Pol Pot, if this is not fucked up enough for you, then I don’t know what is…
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/10/16/who-supported-the-khmer-rouge/

    My point is, even if these allegation prove to be absolutely true, in the light of American’s own appalling and largely undisputed record on the same subject, why should we have any sympathy for them at all?

    • But this is for sure, anyone who was/is against the invasions of Afghanistan/Iraq cannot take these US state department allegations at face value.

      Sure. But then, some of us were against Russia’s invasion of Afghanistan too, and can’t take any official Russian denials of involvement in other countries’ affairs at face value either.

      According to even Wikipedia the US has been involved in over 31 regime changes since the beginning of last century.

      Russia’s been involved in quite a few as well. Your point?

      • Carolyn_nth 5.1.1

        Looks to me like both the US and Russia have been engaged in propaganda in ways that interfere with or aim to influence politics in various countries.

        A Sewdish academic has been researching Russian operations in Sweden and surrounding areas, and has just published a paper on it.

        An article about the paper: Russia spreading fake news and forged docs in Sweden: report

        The report by Martin Kragh, a Russia expert at the Swedish Institute of International Affairs, is the first empirical study detailing Russia’s use of ‘active measures’ in its information war against Sweden, which is largely directed at steering the country away from joining Nato.

        Kragh’s article: published 5 Jan 2017 Russia’s strategy for influence through public diplomacy and active measures: the Swedish case

        Moscow, however, has also been accused of engaging in covert influence activities – behaviour historically referred to as ‘active measures’ in the Soviet KGB lexicon on political warfare. In this paper, we provide empirical evidence on how Russia since 2014 has moved towards a preference for active measures towards Sweden, a small country in a geopolitically important European region. We analyse the blurring of boundaries between public diplomacy and active measures; document phenomena such as forgeries, disinformation, military threats and agents of influence and define Russian foreign policy strategy. In summary, we conclude that the overarching goal of Russian policy towards Sweden and the wider Baltic Sea is to preserve the geostrategic status quo, which is identified with a security order minimising NATO presence in the region.

        So looks to me like the Russian government and agencies are behaving no better or worse than the US ones – covert warfare all round.

      • Adrian Thornton 5.1.2

        Wouldn’t you agree that the burden of proof falls on country that is alleging misconduct having to prove their case to a satisfactory degree, rather than the country being accused proving their denial?

        • Psycho Milt 5.1.2.1

          That would assume that the US government has to prove anything to us. It actually only has to satisfy itself that the Russian government has been acting against it for a response to be justified. The rest of us can only look on in horror and wonder where all this dumbassery is going to end, but while we’re doing that let’s not tell ourselves “Surely Mr Putin wouldn’t do something like that” – of course he would, and it looks like he did.

          • Adrian Thornton 5.1.2.1.1

            I have never and would never say that Putin/Russia isn’t capable of interfering in another countries political affairs, of course they would,and have, that goes without saying.
            All I am saying, is that, the CIA are well known for misleading the public, when they perceive it to be in their interests, so if you want to believe them in this case, just because they say it is so, well that is fine, I guess I am just a little more…let’s just say cynical of CIA motives than you seem be.

            • Colonial Viper 5.1.2.1.1.1

              And it’s not just about misleading the public; the “Intelligence Community” is quite happy to lie to Congress as well. Exhibit A: James Clapper

              http://thehill.com/policy/technology/241508-spy-head-had-absolutely-forgotten-about-nsa-program

            • Psycho Milt 5.1.2.1.1.2

              I’m very skeptical of the CIA’s motives. They’d be as bad as the FSB if it weren’t for the limited public oversight they’re subject to. However, in this case, what they’re saying matches what people in the IT industry are saying: Russian intelligence services are the only credible suspect. Lprent’s laid out the reasons why they’re saying that on a couple of different threads. I wouldn’t take the CIA’s word for it alone, but in this case the balance of probabilities strongly favours them.

              • Adrian Thornton

                “Russian intelligence services are the only credible suspect”sorry but that can only be described as a ridiculous statement, in light of what we know.
                I am not sure who you are following in the IT world, and what couple of threads Lprent is quoting from, but none of it sounds anything like credible decisive evidence from where I am sitting.
                But I am more than happy to be proved wrong…but need a bit more than what you have laid out there, that’s for sure.

                • Colonial Viper

                  But the balance of probabilities yada yada yada

                  Is Russian hacking somehow better than Israeli or Chinese hacking?

                • You’re not going to get credible, decisive evidence when it comes to hacking, unless the hackers are idiots. And if the US intelligence agencies were to have credible, decisive evidence in this case, they certainly wouldn’t make it public because that would only assist future attackers. Balance of probabilities is all you’re going to get for something like this, and balance of probabilities definitely points to the Russian government.

                  • Adrian Thornton

                    Well I do agree that the CIA most likely aren’t going to make public anything that will look or sound like concrete evidence, and as we both know, they have proved themselves to be quite unreliable when it comes to telling the truth, (repeatedly caught lying to Congress) this is just a fact, so it sounds like we will just have to agree to disagree on what side of the scales our different balance of probabilities lay with the information we have.

          • Brutus Iscariot 5.1.2.1.2

            “That would assume that the US government has to prove anything to us..”

            Quote written down for future reference.

  6. Colonial Viper 6

    Mike Smith hit on a key point. Things like the CIA leaking the Presidential ‘hacking briefing’ to NBC before they delivered it to Trump, is a clear sign of the CIA *working against* their own President-Elect.

    Think that through and you will realise where the true threat to US democracy is coming from.

    • Bill 6.1

      You might want to stick to what Mike’s actually posted on CV.

      • Colonial Viper 6.1.1

        Sure; I thought the text of Mike’s post explicitly referred to the CIA actively interfering in the US’s own election result.

        • Bill 6.1.1.1

          So you didn’t actually follow up on his links to get a handle on what he was referring to. 🙄

    • red-blooded 6.2

      CV, you were full of praise for the CIA when they were endangering Clinton’s presidential bid by opening up the email issue again just before the election. Yet now you think they’re conspiring against Trump? Perhaps you should get your story straight.

      • Andre 6.2.1

        Uh, that was the FBI, not the CIA. But the FBI is one of the several agencies contributing to this latest joint report.

        • Colonial Viper 6.2.1.1

          Joint press release

        • red-blooded 6.2.1.2

          FBI/CIA – my point stands. Somehow it’s OK (in some people’s eyes) to make public statements that colour people’s view of Candidate A (Clinton) during the actual campaigning (and voting) period, but it’s a conspiracy against Candidate B (Trump) to release a report about processes that coloured people’s views about A while they were making up their minds who to vote for? That view of the world is somewhat one-eyed.

  7. Sanctuary 7

    It is pretty simple really.

    Did the Russians hack the DNC servers in an attempt to influence the US election? Almost certainly yes.

    Was it the reason Hillary Clinton lost? No.

    Are the Democrats and their liberal supporters using it as an excuse for their defeat instead of dealing with the deep flaws in their party policies and US democracy? Absolutely.

    Should the United States, as a superpower, react decisively against Russia for it’s outrageous interference in it’s internal affairs? Of course they should.

    If I were the Americans, the flow of cash, explosives and weapons to every rebel group from Chechenya to the suddenly appearing Free Crimea Movement would go up, by quite a lot. Putin needs to be shown in language he understands the consequences of his interference.

    • Adrian Thornton 7.1

      So using your logic, then every country that America has interfered with politically has the right to “react decisively against America for it’s outrageous interference in it’s internal affairs”
      Is this what you are suggesting?

      • Colonial Viper 7.1.1

        “If you hack our emails, we will support terrorist attacks against your people” appears to be a deeply held value amongst some on “the left”

        That and affordable housing and a living wage.

      • Sanctuary 7.1.2

        Other countries can react decisively against the most powerful, the richest, and most heavily armed nation the world has ever know at your own peril. AS Stalin remarked in 1935 when told the Pope was concerned about his treatment of Christians:

        “The Pope? How many divisions has he got?”

        We all want the rule of international law to prevail. However, Russia isn’t interested in international law. Interfering in a superpowers internal affairs is a fucking big deal, a casus belli if ever there was. They can’t be allowed to get away with it scot-free.

        At the end of the day, in reacting to such an act of international lawlessness a superpower like the United States has a range of options not available to lesser powers. In other words, if you throw out the rule book – like Putin has – then might is right. If you tear up the rule book, then the USA can interfere when and where it likes because it has the firepower. Russia needs to be reminded of that, and Putin needs to understand the consequences of his actions.

    • Colonial Viper 7.2

      Did the Russians hack the DNC servers in an attempt to influence the US election? Almost certainly yes.

      Huh?

      Are you counting Podesta falling for a phishing scam (whcih could have come from anywhere) as a Russian hack?

      Further, how are you able to attribute exact Russian motivations to their hacking attempts into the DNC?

      (Remembering that Clapper implied that the US regularly hacks foreign political party systems as part of standard intelligence gathering practice).

      If I were the Americans, the flow of cash, explosives and weapons to every rebel group from Chechenya to the suddenly appearing Free Crimea Movement would go up, by quite a lot. Putin needs to be shown in language he understands the consequences of his interference.

      I love it. Thank God Obama and his neocon dickheads Clapper, Carter, et al are leaving the White House in eleven days.

      BTW CIA backed Ukraine has already tried to infiltrate terrorist operatives into Crimea. The Russians caught and liquidated them.

      And you wonder why the Russians prefer Trump and his supporters over sociopath Clinton and her sociopath supporters.

      http://theduran.com/russian-fsb-vs-ukrainian-saboteurs-shoot-crimea/

      • Sanctuary 7.2.1

        Adding snivelling to your range of already unpleasant personal characteristics are we CV? What a piece of excrement.

        • Infused 7.2.1.1

          You’re just a delusional idiot. CV is on the money.

          • Sanctuary 7.2.1.1.1

            Infused…. with to much THC by the look of it.

            OK hotshot, let’s play a game for a bit. Let’s say you are the president of the USA and the CIA PROVE Putin authorised hacking the DNC. What would you do? When you consider the consequences of doing nothing, is that really an option?

            • Colonial Viper 7.2.1.1.1.1

              The CIA would have to prove that Wikileaks did not get their emails from an INTERNAL LEAKER first.

              This should be very simple with the help of the NSA as both Wikileaks and Julian Assange have been CAST IRON targets for years, where expert human resources are actually dedicated to going through their communications, not just automated scanning systems.

              So, where is the evidence?

            • Infused 7.2.1.1.1.2

              Nothing needs to be done as there was no hack. Get with the program.

        • Colonial Viper 7.2.1.2

          By the way Sanctuary, is the US operating in and over Syria with the Syrian government’s approval?

          Because if not, that is a clear violation of international law, and an act of war.

          Or is international law only worth observing when it is convenient for the USA?

          • Sanctuary 7.2.1.2.1

            Whoosh.

            Dude, when I stared into the abyss, I saw you down there staring back. I don’t intend to engage in any sort of debate with you. Frankly, I’d rather scrape dog shit off my shoe.

            • Colonial Viper 7.2.1.2.1.1

              When the US supported the unconstitutional overthrow of the pro-Russian Yanukovych in the Ukraine, then supported the unconstitutional installation of the illegal anti-Russian Poroshenko government in Kiev, was that inside or outside of international law?

              Do you know how stupid you look supporting Anglo-US imperial hegemony while pretending to care about international law? No wonder the BRICS are de-dollarizing as fast as they can and Eurasia is pushing along in its own institutional, economic and political independence.

              Perhaps Russia would view US elections in a more neutral light if the US didn’t constantly violate international law in attempts to destabilise Russian borderlands and Russian allies.

              At least Trump recognises that a new approach is needed with Russia. However the Clintonistas, neocons, Military Industrial Complex types and warhawks hate him for it.

    • Andre 7.3

      “Was it the reason Hillary Clinton lost? No.”

      Was it enough on it’s own to cause Hillary’s loss? No. Was it one of several factors that contributed to Hillary’s loss? Certainly.

      • Colonial Viper 7.3.1

        95% of the blame needs to go on Hillary and her team for not understanding the rust belt and taking them for granted.

        As Santelli remarked, the reason these “hacks” were not focussed on earlier in the year is because it would have underlined Hillary Clinton’s insecure private email server problems.

        • Infused 7.3.1.1

          Which was already festering at the time. With drips and drabs trying to be shut down, like the reddit IT guy…

      • Brutus Iscariot 7.3.2

        The “hacks/leaks” were just revealing information that actually existed – there is no dispute on that. No different to the release of Trump’s “p**** grab” tape.

        Of course Russia would plump for Trump, he’s the one who favours a constructive relationship with them.

    • Bill 7.4

      So you think how many people should be slaughtered?

      And should the UK do likewise and flood every armed anti-Zionist org with arms off the back of Israeli interference in the UK’s internal affairs? (Which included the stated objective to ‘take down’ specific MPs)

      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/09/israeli-diplomats-cautioned-against-operating-british-jewish-organisations

      &

      https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jan/07/israeli-diplomat-shai-masot-caught-on-camera-plotting-to-take-down-uk-mps

    • Infused 7.5

      Just shows you have no clue what actually happened.

    • One Two 7.6

      “If I were the americans….Putin needs to be shown in language he understands”

      Promoting and waging war based on “almost certainly”

      Your comment attracted a number of responses, most which pulled yours to pieces for the nonsense that it is…

      Gaping holes and juvinile utterances enabled an obvious outcome!

      • Colonial Viper 7.6.1

        The bizarre thing is that Putin and Lavrov understand diplomatic negotiation and international law VERY well.

        At this stage however, and after being misled many times by the US in Ukraine and Syria, they appear to consider Obama White House an untrustworthy side which cannot keep to any agreements.

        • One Two 7.6.1.1

          None of us have any idea what happened, yet many are commenting in absolutes despite a history of documented lies and exposure of treachery

          This shows a core issue which humanity must overcome, to avoid what will be complete demise on current track. Ego, deceit and disunity !

          The agencies and entities involved are operating at depths of complexity using tactics with tools which render humanity to passengers arguing internally over the lies and mistruths the ‘media arm’ of those same agencies allows us access to

          That so many engage energy into such discussions illustrates the mind control exhibited by those who seek to mislead!

  8. adam 8

    I am sick of this John Podesta had the;

    user name — jpodesta
    Password — p@ssw0rd

    The guy deserved to hacked, any Muppet could have done it.

    How about we all look to see who John Podesta is instead?

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

  • Labour MPs supporting Johnson’s turd-sandwich deal?
    I find this unbelievable:
    I've got one source saying more Labour MPs than expected are mulling whether to vote for the deal - including names who were not on the letter to Juncker and Tusk— Emilio Casalicchio (@e_casalicchio) 17 October 2019 I've compiled a list of possible reasons why Labour ...
    12 hours ago
  • Why do we need control orders again?
    On Wednesday, the government was loudly telling us that it needed to legislate to allow it to impose "control orders" - effectively a parole regime, but imposed without charge, prosecution, conviction or real evidence - on suspected terrorists because they couldn't be prosecuted for their supposed crimes. Today, it turns ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    15 hours ago
  • Bullshitting the Minister
    On Monday, the Hit and Run inquiry heard from NZDF's former director of special operations, who claimed that the defence Minister knew everything about the Operation Burnham raid. Today, the inquiry heard from that (former) Minister - and it turns out that he didn't know nearly as much as NZDF ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    15 hours ago
  • Speaker: Extinction Rebellion is not a cult (but ecstasy for the people)
    Yoga gurus and cult leaders – I’ve seen a few. Two weeks ago, I unknowingly joined an alleged new-age cult at the Kāpiti coast, together with a giant kraken and some neatly dressed pensioners who would make any book club proud.They were among the two hundred people of all ages ...
    17 hours ago
  • We need to bring the police under control
    The last decade has seen a trend of increasing weapons availability to police. Assault rifles. Tasers on every hip. Guns in cars. And following the march 15 massacre, pistols on every hip, all over the country. At the same time, its also seen an increase in the abuse of force: ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    17 hours ago
  • If you can’t measure it, does it exist?
    In the last couple of weeks, I’ve been busy preparing for our summer paper on Science Communication. Looking for something amusing about ‘risk’ in science, I came across this neat xkcd.com cartoon about why so many people come knocking on my door (or phoning me, or emailing me) desperately wanting ...
    SciBlogsBy Marcus Wilson
    21 hours ago
  • Swinson’s swithering
    Jo Swinson is doing even worse at this Being Sensible lark that I'd thought.  I've just become aware of the following utterance
    .@KayBurley presses Lib Dem leader @joswinson on whether she would agree to a #Brexit deal 'no matter how bad a deal it is' as long as it had ...
    1 day ago
  • Women’s rights, trans ideology and Gramsci’s morbid symptoms
    by John Edmundson The International Socialist Organisation (ISO) have recently reposted a February article, by Romany Tasker-Poland, explaining ISO’s position in the “trans rights” debate.  It is available on their website and on their Facebook Page.  The article sets out to explain why “socialists support trans rights”.  It reads more ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 days ago
  • We need to take guns off police
    Today's IPCA report of police criminality: a police officer unalwfully tasered a fleeing suspect who posed no threat to anyone:The police watchdog has found an officer unlawfully tasered an Auckland man who broke his ankle jumping off a balcony to escape arrest. [...] To avoid arrest, the man jumped over ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • “Bringing kindness back”
    "Auckland City Mission: 10% of Kiwis experiencing food insecurity", RNZ, 16 October 2019:About half a million people are experiencing food insecurity, according to new research from the Auckland City Mission. Food insecurity, or food poverty, is defined as not having enough appropriate food. The City Mission said over the last ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • Press Release: “Fake News” from Auckland City Council CCOs Board Chairs re pay and performance b...
    Media Statement for Immediate Release 16th October 2019 “Fake News” from Auckland City Council CCOs Board Chairs re pay and performance bonuses for top managers Despite comments from Auckland City Council CCOs Board Chairs re pay and performance bonuses for top managers—Herald Newspaper Tuesday Oct 15th–there is very little evidence ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    2 days ago
  • Ever-So-Slightly Bonkers: Simon Bridges Plays To His Base.
    Would You Buy A Used Propaganda Video From This Man? Bridges and the National Party’s strategists have discovered that the ideas and attitudes considered acceptable by today’s editors and journalists are no longer enforceable. The rise and rise of the Internet and the social media platforms it spawned means that ...
    2 days ago
  • Asking for food
    There is plenty of evidence of the way the business mentality has permeated every level of society since the recrudescence of market liberalism 35 years ago. You only need to think of how citizens in need of help from their government, their state, their country, are now routinely described as ...
    Opposable ThumbBy Unknown
    2 days ago
  • Forty years of change in the jobs Kiwi do and the places they call home
    John MacCormick Over the last 40 years, New Zealanders – and people in other countries – have experienced big changes in the jobs they do and where they live and work. These changes include: a decline in manufacturing jobs an increase in jobs in ‘information-intensive’ industries (which are better paid ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    2 days ago
  • Protecting Fresh Waterways in Aotearoa/NZ: The Strong Public Health Case
    Nick Wilson, Leah Grout, Mereana Wilson, Anja Mizdrak, Phil Shoemack, Michael Baker Protecting waterways has the benefits of: (1) protecting water from hazardous microbes; (2) minimising cancer risk and other problems from nitrates in water; (3) avoiding algal blooms that are hazardous to health; (4) protecting mahinga kai uses (cultural ...
    SciBlogsBy Public Health Expert
    2 days ago
  • Massey University triggered to rebrand
    by The Council of Disobedient Women In a press release today Massey University announced it has decided to rebrand and reorientate after struggling to be a University for grown-ups. For some time the University has wanted to be a safe play space for wee-woke-misogynists who have been really badly triggered ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 days ago
  • Swinson backing calls for a second referendum (again)
    After a brief dalliance with 'hard Revoke' it looks like the Lib Dems are changing ground on on Brexit, with leader Jo Swinson reverting to calling for a second referendum on Johnson's deal.The party has tabled an amendment to the Queen’s speech requesting that any deal brought back from Brussels ...
    2 days ago
  • An odious bill
    The government has decided that someone has done Something Bad. But despite their belief, there seems to be no evidence that they have actually broken the law. So the government's solution is to pass a retrospective law allowing them to be punished anyway, on a lower standard of proof. If ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • National is now the party of climate arson
    So, Judith Collins has done a Facebook rant about climate change, peddling the same shit National has been shovelling for the past twenty years: the impacts are overstated, there's no need to do anything about it, and its too hard anyway (oh, and its so unfair that people who peddle ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • The environmental footprint of electric versus fossil car
    Climate Explained is a collaboration between The Conversation, Stuff and the New Zealand Science Media Centre to answer your questions about climate change. If you have a question you’d like an expert to answer, please send it to climate.change@stuff.co.nz There is a lot of discussion on the benefits of ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    3 days ago
  • “Manifest” by Andrew Bird – A Song For The Times.
    I came across this song quite by accident. If it isn't one of Greta Thunberg's favourites - it should be.Video courtesy of YouTube.This post is exclusive to Bowalley Road. ...
    3 days ago
  • Passing the buck
    Last month, NZDF's shoddy coverup of what it knew about civilian casualties in Operation Burnham began to fall apart, with the revelation that a report on the matter, which NZDF claimed not to have, had been sitting in an NZDF safe for the past nine years. Yesterday, the man responsible ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • India a major player in Earth observation satellites
    While many imagine that countries like the USA and Europe dominate space activities, in fact India is now a major player on this stage. It launches satellites for its own purposes and also commercially, and has constellations orbiting our planet and returning data of vital importance to that nation in ...
    SciBlogsBy Duncan Steel
    3 days ago
  • The rot at the top (2).
    Thanks to a report from the Acting Inspector General of Intelligence and Security following a complaint by Nicky Hager, we have come to find out that the SIS illegally spied on Mr. Hager on behalf of the NZDF after publication of Hager’s 2011 book, Other People’s Wars. The NZDF justified ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    4 days ago
  • Common misconceptions about “Global Warming”
    COMMON MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING MYTH 1: Global temperatures are rising at a rapid, unprecedented rate. FACT: The HadCRUT3 surface temperature index, produced by the Hadley Centre of the UK Met Office and the Climate Research Unit of the University of East Anglia, shows warming to 1878, cooling to 1911, ...
    An average kiwiBy admin@averagekiwi.com
    4 days ago
  • A climate of tyranny
    For the past week, Extinction Rebellion has been peacefully protesting in London to demand action on climate change. The British government's response? Ban their protests:Police have banned Extinction Rebellion protests from continuing anywhere in London, as they moved in almost without warning to clear protesters who remained at the movement’s ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • Collins crushes climate
    An essay by Judith Collins MP reported on Carbon News yesterday seems to show an alarming shift in attitude within the National Party. Collins argues against the Zero Carbon Bill, the Paris Agreement, and downplays the magnitude of climate impacts. The Paris Agreement was adopted in December 2015 and ratified ...
    SciBlogsBy Robert McLachlan
    4 days ago
  • More disappointment
    When they were running for election, Labour promised to overhaul the Employment Relations Act and introduce fair pay agreements to set basic pay and conditions on an industry level, preventing bad employers from undercutting good ones. They followed this up by establishing a working group, which reported back in January ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • What do these mother-child studies really say about fluoridation?
    A list of indicators of bad science – many of these are found in articles promoted by anti-fluoride activists. Anti-fluoride activists have been pouring money into a scaremongering campaign warning pregnant women not to drink fluoridated water. They claim fluoride will lower the IQ of their future child. Fluoride ...
    4 days ago
  • Losing Labour’s Mills-Tone.
    Nothing Left To Say: Labour's pollster, Stephen Mills, remains swaddled-up in the comforting myths of the 1980s. As if the experience of Roger Douglas’s genuinely radical post-Muldoon policy agenda was literally a once-in-a-lifetime thing – as much as the party could possibly absorb for at least the next 50 years.MEMO ...
    4 days ago
  • Speaker: Disability and the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Historical Abuse
    The Royal Commission on abuse in care is very significant for the disability community. For many decades last century, thousands of disabled children, and adults who managed to survive, were locked away from families and communities. This was not for anything they had done, but for the perceived threat their ...
    4 days ago
  • Spain is not a democracy
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • UK Conservatives hate democracy
    With an unfair voting system, uneven electorates and an un-elected upper house, the UK's "democracy" is barely worthy of the name. But now the government wants to make it worse:The government has been accused of suppressing voters’ rights with the potential disenfranchisement of tens of thousands of people after plans ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • What is wrong with our building industry?
    Back in the 90's and early 2000's, the building industry was building leaky homes which should never have been granted consent. Now it turns out they've been building dodgy office blocks as well:New imaging technology has revealed hundreds of major buildings nationwide have defective or missing concrete or reinforcing steel. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Local bodies
    Local body election results were released over the weekend, to joy or despair depending on where you live. In Auckland, Phil Goff trounced John Tamihere, who is muttering darkly about running for Parliament again (but which party would want him?) Wellington is now a wholly-owned subsidiary of Weta Workshop, except ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • A future of government
      How could government evolve over the next decades? Reports of democracy’s imminent demise are greatly exaggerated.  However, satisfaction with political systems in many countries is low, so there is much to do for governments of all political stripes to improve relevance and trust. Digital technologies are seen as one ...
    SciBlogsBy Robert Hickson
    7 days ago
  • Speaker: Catalonia, interrupted
    Two years have now gone by since the Friday afternoon when my university-student son and I headed out of our Barcelona flat to a nearby primary school, designated as a polling station for the vote that was to be held the following Sunday: the referendum on Catalonia’s independence from Spain ...
    7 days ago
  • Sage Decisions Unwisely Over-Ruled.
    Overruled: The joint decision of Finance Minister, Grant Robertson (Labour) and his Associate Minister, David Parker (Labour) arguably the two most powerful ministers in Jacinda Ardern’s government, to grant OceanaGold the consents which Land Information Minister, Eugenie Sage (Greens) had earlier denied them, offers bitter proof of how hard fighting ...
    7 days ago
  • Government may ban voting in effort to get more people to do it
    More than double the number of people who will vote in this year’s local body elections have tried marijuana or urinated somewhere they shouldn’t have. As local elections look set for the lowest turnout in decades, with many regions falling well short of 40%, the Government is exploring a number ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Woman: Deleted.
    A Statement on Abortion Law Reform by the Council of Disobedient Women   On the eve of bringing an end to antiquated, anti-women abortion laws Green MP Jan Logie intends to write women out of the Bill. With a stroke of the pen, the woke are aiming for total erasure ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • The Hollowest of Men Ride Again… SURPRISE!
    Musings continue apace about “the experienced businessman!” soon to be taking up a National Party MP position. Or to be more accurate, being parachuted into a seat to shut down their former MP Jamie-Lee Ross, who despite his own shortcomings shed at least some more light on the inner workings ...
    exhALANtBy exhalantblog
    1 week ago
  • Barbaric
    The Ugandan government wants to murder gay people:Uganda has announced plans to impose the death penalty on homosexuals. The bill, colloquially known as “Kill the Gays” in Uganda, was nullified five years ago on a technicality, but the government said on Thursday it plans to resurrect it within weeks. The ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Fighting Monsters.
    Freedom Of Speech? The Säuberung (cleansing by fire) was the work of the German Student Union which, on 10 May 1933, under the watchful eye of the Nazi Reichminister for Propaganda, Joseph Goebbels, consigned 25,000 books to the flames in a ritual exorcism of “un-German thought”. According to the logic of the ...
    1 week ago
  • The next wave of kaupapa Māori politics: its constitutional, it must be.
      “There can be no such thing as kaupapa Māori political parties or politics in Aotearoa” (Willie Jackson, Labour Party (2017). Māori TV, General/List Election Special) I begin with that claim because at the time, I was confounded at first that it fell out of Willie Jackson’s mouth, and then ...
    EllipsisterBy Ellipsister
    1 week ago
  • Night lights of NZ from orbit
    New Zealand has prided itself for decades with regard to its lack of pollution, and all will be aware that the ‘100% Pure New Zealand‘ meme is under threat through land, water and air pollution of various causes. There is another type of contamination that the country also faces: light ...
    SciBlogsBy Duncan Steel
    1 week ago
  • Reporters deliver uplifting news to fleeing Japanese residents: they won’t miss any rugby
    New Zealand’s media is doing its part in Japan, reassuring those in the path of the storm that they won’t miss any rugby while away from their flooded homes. New Zealand sports reporters stationed in Japan for the Rugby World Cup have had the rare and heartwarming opportunity to inform ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Government in contentious discussions about whether to put surplus on red or black
    Regional Development Minister Shane Jones is the only Cabinet member in favour of putting it all on green. As Finance Minister Grant Robertson finds himself with an enormous $7.5 billion surplus, the Government has begun intense, at times contentious conversations about whether to put the money on red or black at ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Jordanian teachers’ successful strike has lessons for here
    by Susanne Kemp At the start of September close to 100,000 school teachers went on strike in Jordan.  They demanded a 50% pay rise.  A pay rise actually agreed to by the regime back in 2014. In early October, however, in the face of government repression and threats, the teachers’ ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Why some people still think climate change isn’t real
    Climate Explained is a collaboration between The Conversation, Stuff and the New Zealand Science Media Centre to answer your questions about climate change. If you have a question you’d like an expert to answer, please send it to climate.change@stuff.co.nz Why do people still think climate change isn’t real? David ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    1 week ago
  • The SIS unlawfully spied on Nicky Hager
    Back in 2011, journalist Nicky Hager published Other People's Wars, an expose on NZDF's activities over the previous decade of the "war on terror". NZDF didn't like this, and especially didn't like the fact that it was base don leaks from their own. So, they had the SIS investigate him ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • October 2019 – Newsletter
    https://mailchi.mp/7d9133add053/closing-the-gap-october-2019-newsletter ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    1 week ago
  • And they wonder why we think they’re environmental vandals…
    The Zero Carbon Bill is due back from select committee in two weeks, and will likely pass its final stages in November. So naturally, farmers are planning a hate-march against it. But they're not just demanding lower methane targets so they can keep on destroying the planet; they're also demanding ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: Paying the price in California
    Last year, California burned. This year, to stop it happening again (or rather, to stop themselves from being found liable if it happens again), Pacific Gas and Electric is cutting power to half the state for a week:Schools are closed. Traffic lights down. Tunnels dark. Businesses unopened. Hospitals running on ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Let’s Hear It For Up-Close-And-Personal, Hard-Copy Democracy!
    The Best Way: Missing from the on-line voting debate is any reference to the voting system that produces turn-out figures ranging from 77 to 93 percent of registered voters. The voting system used to collect and count the votes cast in our parliamentary elections. The system that involves citizens making ...
    1 week ago
  • 10/10: World Day Against the Death Penalty
    Today, October 10, is the world day against the death penalty. Out of 195 UN member states, 84 still permit capital punishment. Today is the day we work to change that. This year's theme is children. Having a parent sentenced to death or executed causes long-term trauma and stigmatization which ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Talking Freer Lives: a Marxist gender-critical perspective from Australia
    Among the great new bunch of political friends we have been making recently is the excellent Australian-based Marxist gender-critical site, Freer Lives.  So we asked the comrade who set up that blog to write something for Redline on the blog, himself, his analysis of the rise of gender politics and ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Government spin accepted by union leadership
    by Don Franks  The Auckland City Mission is struggling with a 40 percent increase in demand for food parcels this year. A total of 23,020 were needed by June. Last month Missioner Chris Farrelly told the Herald the “cupboards are bare” and without an emergency food drive, he can’t see ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Forbidden Thoughts
    by The Council of Disobedient Women   Massey Wellington Student Association had a sit-in today. Imagine a sit-in. On a campus. Against a women’s rights meeting. Did the ’60s really happen or did we fucking dream it? They gathered in the student square, an echo chamber. Sitting on soft pillows ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Much love to my loyal Ukrainian readership
    For some reasons, my post about the mystery message from inside the Downing Street bunker seemed to catch people's attention.  Quite a lot of hits from NZ (unsurprisingly) and the USA (a bit more puzzlingly, but hi there, USAians!!) and 76 views from the Ukraine.I've celebrated my Ukrainian readers in ...
    1 week ago
  • Another day of bonkers GNUmours (again, sorry)
    First, almost a score of Labour MPs seem to have sent a letter to the EU basically begging them to accept a deal - any deal - just so Britain can get the Heck on with Brexiting instead of being trapped in limbo:
    To avoid no deal, deliver on the ...
    1 week ago
  • Labour vs working class immigrants – again!
    by Phil Duncan In 2016 the National-led government suspended the Parent Visa Category, through which migrants were able to bring their parents into New Zealand.  Since then over 5,700 people have been in immigration limbo, stuck on the visa wait list. Labour is now bringing back the scheme.  Well, sort ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Speak Up for Women press statement: on Massey University and Feminism 2020
    The following was released yesterday (Tues, October 8) by the women’s liberation organisation Speak Up for Women. On 23 September Speak Up For Women announced that we would be holding an event at the Massey University Theaterette in Wellington. The event is called Feminism 2020. The intention of the event ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Farmers support dirty rivers
    The government is currently consulting on plans to improve freshwater quality. So naturally, farmers oppose it:South Taranaki farmers are preparing to fight proposed national freshwater changes that some fear will bankrupt them. The Government's proposed National Environment Standard on Freshwater Management, released in September, rated the Waingongoro River as one ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • No-one cares about local government
    Yesterday was the last day for (reliably) posting your vote away in local body elections. Turnouts are mostly much lower than the equivalent time last year (Palmerston North is down 2.3%), and so naturally people are pushing their online-voting snake oil again. Because the online census worked so well, lets ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • The political ghosts of eugenics may matter more than the genetic
    This essay, on the political legacy of the eugenics movement, by Kenan Malik was originally published in the Observer on 6 October 2019, under the headline ‘The spirit of eugenics is still with us, as immigrants know to their cost’. Birth control. Intelligence tests. Town planning. Immigration controls. It’s striking how ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • “Surplus” again
    Another year, and the government has announced another enormous government "surplus". And just like last year, its nothing of the sort. When we have people homeless and sick and hungry, when we have schools and hospitals still falling down, when we have underpaid public servants and infrastucture unmaintained or unbuilt, ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Inside the Downing Street bunker
    James Forsyth at The Spectator (I know, I know) has tapped one of his contacts inside Number Ten for an insight into the Johnson administration's thinking and strategy.It is fascinating, unsettling and quite, quite mad.  Some key points:Negotiations have stalled and the Johnson administration are keen to blame the EU: ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Taking Control Of The Nation’s Story.
    Fatal Contact: With the arrival of captain James Cook in October 1769, the islands of what would become New Zealand ceased to be the preserve of Polynesian navigators and settlers and became a part of both the world’s map and the world’s history.THE MAORI NATIONALIST assault upon the historical meaning ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Are GNUs extinct?
    Another round of tactical talks about forming a Government of National Unity have come to nothing with the Liberal Democrats still refusing countenance putting Jeremy Corbyn into Downing Street:Opposition talks on Monday made little headway over when to try and vote down Boris Johnson's government and who might succeed him as ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Labour chickens out again
    When the government was elected, it promised to lead the way on electric vehicles, and specifically to make the government vehicle fleet emissions-free where-practicable by 2025.They lied:There are 15,473 vehicles in the government fleet and only 78 are electric. When the coalition Government came into power in late 2017, the ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Transgender extremism, violence at work against feminist meeting at British Labour Party conference
    by Nick Rogers The debate around the meaning of sex and gender made an appearance at this year’s British Labour Party conference in Brighton. Women’s Place UK – an organisation that questions the demand that biological males who self-identify as woman should have access to women’s spaces, to all-women shortlists, ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Rebelling in Wellington
    Yesterday I went down to Wellington to participate in the Extinction Rebellion protest. Its part of the latest global wave of XR actions, with actions happening all over the world. Some of those protests are massively disruptive: in Canada, XR is blocking major bridges, stopping people from getting to work. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • ‘The Workshop’ – Report: Talking about Poverty and Welfare Reform: A Guide to Strategies that ...
    The Workshop is a charitable trust for public good. The Workshop undertake research to find ways of communicating that will build support for the solutions that work to solve complex social and environmental problems. See their Report on Talking about Poverty and Welfare Reform below. ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    2 weeks ago
  • Exclusive language
    What is language? We generally assume that it a facility unique to humans, allowing us to share what’s in and on our minds. We can tell of our plans, our past exploits, our knowledge. It also allows us to lie. And yet there are vast numbers of people we can’t ...
    SciBlogsBy Michael Corballis
    2 weeks ago
  • April 2018 – Submission to the NZ Govt Tax Working Group
    You can read our submission HERE ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    2 weeks ago

  • Methane reducing cattle feed one step closer
    The Government today announced its support for a project that could substantially reduce agricultural greenhouse gas emissions from cattle. The announcement was made as part of Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern’s and Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor’s visit to Nelson’s Cawthron Aquaculture Park. The Cawthron Institute will receive $100,000 from the Government’s ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    15 hours ago
  • Bill to refresh superannuation system passes first reading
    Social Development Minister Carmel Sepuloni has welcomed the first reading of the New Zealand Superannuation and Veteran’s Pension Legislation Amendment Bill. “Every New Zealander has a stake in New Zealand Superannuation and Veteran’s Pension,” says Carmel Sepuloni. “They are our most common form of social assistance – nearly 800,000 New ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    18 hours ago
  • Government announces next steps in fight against measles
    Babies in Auckland aged six months and over can receive a free vaccination and children will all have access to vaccines, Associate Minister of Health Julie Anne Genter announced today at Papatoetoe High School.   The move comes as part of Government efforts to step up the fight against measles. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    18 hours ago
  • Speech to the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs, Pacific Futures: Connections, Identity...
    ***Check against delivery*** Good morning. It is a pleasure to be here, and to have the honour of opening this important conference on behalf of the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs. Let us take the opportunity to acknowledge all the people who have helped make today possible, including our special ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    19 hours ago
  • Police trial new response to high risk events
    Police Minister Stuart Nash says the safety of frontline officers and members of the public will be the focus of a new trial of specialist Police response teams in three of our largest urban centres. Police have this morning released details of an initiative to be trialled in Counties Manukau, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    20 hours ago
  • New awards celebrate fisheries sustainability
    The Minister of Fisheries is calling for entries for a new public award to celebrate innovation in our seafood sector. “I have established the Seafood Sustainability Awards to recognise and celebrate those throughout industry, tangata whenua and communities who demonstrate outstanding dedication and innovation towards the sustainability of New Zealand’s ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    21 hours ago
  • More progress for women and we can do more
    Minister for Women Julie Anne Genter welcomes leaders in the private sector taking action on closing their gender pay gaps to ensure a fairer workplace for all New Zealanders. Ms Genter today launched a new report, Addressing the gender pay gap and driving women’s representation in senior leadership, from the Champions for ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Proposals to curb environmental damage help our coasts and the oceans
    Government Ministers today welcomed the release of a marine environment report highlighting the four key issues affecting our oceans, estuaries and coastlines.  The release underlines the importance of government proposals to combat climate pollution, ensure clean freshwater, protect biodiversity, make land use more sustainable, and reduce waste and plastic.    Environment ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • New mental health facility for Waikato
    The Government has approved funding for a new acute mental health facility for Waikato which will provide better care and support to people with mental health and addiction issues. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and Health Minister Dr David Clark announced the $100 million project to replace the aging Henry Rongomau ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • 500 new te reo Māori champions in our classrooms
    The Government is making progress on its goal to integrate te reo Māori into education by 2025, with over 500 teachers and support staff already graduating from Te Ahu o te Reo Māori,  Associate Education Minister Kelvin Davis announced today. Kelvin Davis made the announcement at an awards ceremony in Waikanae today, for ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Minister James Shaw welcomes 2018 Census first release
    Statistics Minister James Shaw has welcomed the first release of 2018 Census data. The first release of data today, 23 September, includes key data on population, regional growth, the number of homes and the size of different ethnic groups in New Zealand. Data from the 2018 Census will support the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Driving transparency, ethics and accountability in government use of algorithms
    Minister for Statistics James Shaw today announced a public consultation on a proposed algorithm charter for government agencies. The charter has been developed by the Government Chief Data Steward in response to growing calls for more transparency in government use of data. Computer algorithms – procedures or formulas for solving ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • New Zealand and the Netherlands working together on climate change
    Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor, Climate Change Minister James Shaw and visiting Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte co-hosted a business roundtable in Auckland this morning focused on working together to address climate change.  “The Netherlands is an important partner for New Zealand. We share a strong agricultural history. Sustainable agribusiness and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Protecting fairness for workers and businesses
    The Government is taking action to build an inclusive economy where more of us receive our fair share at work and businesses can compete on great products and services, not undercutting wages and conditions, Immigration and Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Iain Lees-Galloway says. Two consultations launched today seek feedback ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Indigenous Freshwater Fish Bill Passes
    The future for New Zealand’s threatened indigenous freshwater fish looks brighter with the passing of the Conservation (Indigenous Freshwater Fish) Amendment Bill in Parliament today said Minister of Conservation, Eugenie Sage. “Until now, our freshwater fish legislation has been 20 years out of date. We have lacked effective tools to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Kiwis to take part in world’s biggest earthquake drill
    At 1.30pm tomorrow, hundreds of thousands of Kiwis will join about 65 million people around the globe in ShakeOut, the world’s biggest earthquake drill. The annual drill is to remind people of the right action to take during an earthquake which is to Drop, Cover, Hold, and to practise their ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Rising wages and low inflation supporting Kiwis
    Kiwis are benefiting from higher wage growth and low inflation under the Coalition Government. Stats NZ data out today shows the rise in the cost of living remains low, as annual Consumers Price Index (CPI) inflation fell to 1.5% in September from 1.7% in June. “The low inflation comes as ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • NZ economy strong amid global headwinds
    New Zealand’s economic strength and resilience has been recognised in a major update on the state of the global economy. The IMF’s latest World Economic Outlook released overnight shows a reduced global growth forecast over the next two years as issues like the US-China trade war and Brexit take hold. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Keeping New Zealanders safer with better counter-terrorism laws
    Justice Minister Andrew Little has today introduced a new Bill to prevent terrorism and support the de-radicalisation of New Zealanders returning from overseas. The Terrorism Suppression (Control Orders) Bill gives the New Zealand Police the ability to apply to the High Court to impose control orders on New Zealanders who ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Improved succession and dispute resolution core of Ture Whenua changes
    A Bill that proposes targeted changes to simplify the processes for Māori land owners when engaging with the Māori Land Court has had its First Reading today. “The approach taken by the Government is to ensure that the protection of Māori land remains a priority as we seek to improve ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Speech to CTU Biennial Conference
    Let me first thank all the new unionists and members in the room. There is nothing more important to improving people’s working lives than people making the decision to care, to get on board and help, to take up the reins and get involved. Congratulations to you. You bring the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Minister ensures continued Whenuapai flight operations
    Minister of Defence Ron Mark has signed a certificate exempting the activity of engine testing at Whenuapai Airbase from the Resource Management Act 1991. The Act gives the Minister of Defence the power to exempt activities for the purposes of national security.  The certificate will mean the recent Environment Court ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • NZ joins Coalition of Finance Ministers for Climate Action
    Finance Minister Grant Robertson has announced New Zealand will join the Coalition of Finance Ministers for Climate Action while attending APEC meetings in Chile. The objective of the 39 member Coalition is to share information and promote action to tackle climate change. It was formed in April this year, in ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Feedback Sought – Section 71 – Lyttelton Parking
    Feedback sought– Lyttelton commercial zone parking  The Associate Minister for Greater Christchurch Regeneration, Poto Williams, is seeking feedback on a proposal to remove on-site car parking requirements for new developments in the Lyttelton commercial zone.  The proposal, by Christchurch City Council, asks that powers under section 71 of the Greater ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Feedback Sought – Section 71 – Hagley Oval
    Hon Minister Poto Williams Associate Minister for Greater Christchurch Regeneration   MEDIA STATEMENT       Tuesday 15 October 2019 Feedback sought – Hagley Oval The Associate Minister for Greater Christchurch Regeneration, Poto Williams, is seeking feedback on a proposal about Hagley Oval. The proposal was developed by Regenerate Christchurch ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • CTU speech – DPM
    Ladies and gentlemen, NZCTU President Richard Wagstaff, members of respective unions – thank you for the invitation to speak to you today. This might be preaching to the choir, but the importance of trade unions in New Zealand’s historical arch is difficult to understate. And it is my belief that ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Police Association Annual Conference
    "Let’s start by acknowledging that it has been a huge year. " Police Association Annual Conference James Cook Grand Chancellor Hotel Wellington Nau mai, haere mai. Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, ka nui te mihi, ki a koutou katoa. President of the Police Association, Chris Cahill; Members of the Association and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • New Zealand announces a further P-3 deployment in support of UN sanctions
    Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters and Minister of Defence Ron Mark have announced the New Zealand Government’s decision to again deploy a Royal New Zealand Air Force P-3K2 (P-3) maritime patrol aircraft to support the implementation of United Nations Security Council (UNSC) resolutions imposing sanctions against North Korea. New ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • New Zealand deeply concerned at developments in north-east Syria
    Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters says New Zealand continues to have serious concerns for peace and stability in north-east Syria. “Recent reports that hundreds of ISIS-affiliated families have fled from a camp are deeply concerning from a humanitarian and security perspective”, Mr Peters says. “While we acknowledge Turkey’s domestic security ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Government on high alert for stink bugs
    Biosecurity Minister Damien O’Connor is warning travelling Kiwis to be vigilant as the high-season for the crop-eating brown marmorated stink bug (BMSB) is under way. “We’re on high alert to stop BMSB arriving in NZ. The high season runs until April 30 and we’ve strengthened our measures to stop stink ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Better protections for students in halls of residence
    The Government is moving swiftly to change the law to improve the welfare and pastoral care of students living in university halls of residence and other tertiary hostels. Cabinet has agreed to several changes, including creating a new mandatory Code of Practice that sets out the duty of pastoral care ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • New trapping guide for community and expert trappers alike
    The Minister for Conservation Eugenie Sage has launched a new comprehensive trapping guide for community trappers to help them protect our native birds, plants and other wildlife, at Zealandia in Wellington today. ‘A practical guide to trapping’, has been developed by the Department of Conservation (DOC), and was launched during ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Widening Access to Contraceptives Welcomed
    Associate Health Minister Julie Anne Genter welcomes PHARMAC’s move to improve access to long-acting reversible contraception (LARCs). PHARMAC has today announced it will fund the full cost of Mirena and Jaydess for anyone seeking long term contraception, lifting previous restrictions on access to Mirena. “I welcome women having greater choices ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Major upgrade for Taranaki Base Hospital
    The Government has approved the next stage of a major redevelopment of Taranaki Base Hospital, which will deliver new and improved facilities for patients. Health Minister Dr David Clark has announced details of a $300 million dollar project to build a new East Wing at the New Plymouth hospital. It ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Extra support for rural families
    Extra funding will allow Rural Support Trusts to help farming families, says Minister for Rural Communities and Agriculture Damien O’Connor. “I know that rural families are worried about some of the challenges facing them, including the ongoing uncertainty created by the Mycoplasma bovis outbreak. “Those concerns sit alongside ongoing worries ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Howard Leaque Beekeeper programme graduation
    Thank you for the opportunity to be here to present certificates to the 16 graduates who have completed a beekeeping course delivered by the Howard League.  Let us start by acknowledging Auckland Prison’s Deputy Prison Director Tom Sherlock, and Acting Assistant Regional Commissioner of Corrections Northern Region Scott Walker - ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Finance Minister to attend APEC meetings
    Finance Minister Grant Robertson leaves this weekend to attend the APEC Finance Ministers meeting in Santiago, Chile. Discussions between APEC Finance Ministers at the meeting will include the effects of the current global economic uncertainty, risks for APEC economies and sustainable development of the region. While at APEC Grant Robertson ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Pacific languages are a source of strength, they ground us and build confidence
    The Minister for Pacific Peoples Aupito William Sio says for Pacific people, language can be a source of strength. It can help ground us and give us confidence. When we speak them, our languages provide us with an immediate and intimate access to our identity and our story - and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Major boost to support disabled people in sport and recreation
    The Coalition Government has announced an action plan to improve the wellbeing of disabled New Zealanders by addressing inequalities in play, active recreation and sport. The initiative includes training to develop a workforce that understands the needs of children and young people with a range of impairments, advocacy for fit ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • More prefab homes to be built as red tape cut
    The construction sector is being freed up to allow more homes to be built more quickly as the Government cuts through some of the red tape of the Building Act.  “Every New Zealander deserves a warm, dry, safe home and old inefficiencies in the Building Act make building slow and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago