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The election of truth vs lies

Written By: - Date published: 9:28 am, September 10th, 2017 - 77 comments
Categories: accountability, democratic participation, election 2017, labour, national - Tags: , , , , ,

All politicians are liars, so the saying goes. It’s not the case of course, but the lies are so widespread as to tarnish all politicans by association. This damages rational decision making and political engagement. It’s bad for democracy.

In this election the contrast between lying politicians and a new kind of politics has never been clearer. Bill English, Steven Joyce and Paula Bennett are the lying politicians, and they have no one to blame but themselves. Jacinda Ardern is the face of what could be a new kind of politics. Yesterday’s editorial (Philip Matthews) on Stuff:

Is there truth in politics?

Ardern’s unexpected popular appeal is not just about youth and generational change. It is about a different kind of newness, even though she has been in Parliament longer than Little. She addresses a constituency that has become dissatisfied with the ritualised games, codes and gestures of politics as usual.

During the Newshub leaders debate on Monday, both Ardern and Prime Minister Bill English were asked if it is possible to survive in politics without lying. English answered along the lines that “no one is perfect”, which is a truthful answer, whereas Ardern argued that “I believe it is possible to exist in politics without lying and by telling the truth”.

You would have to go back a long way to find a major political leader who could have said that without being laughed off stage. That Ardern delivered it and survived speaks to the power of her image.

Ardern’s lines about truth came within a week dominated by Finance Minister Steven Joyce’s cynical sowing of doubt and confusion in the media about Labour’s fiscal plans. There is nothing new about Joyce’s tactic although the invention of a fictional “$11 billion hole” in the books seemed unusually brazen and Joyce and English seemed foolish in their determination to persist with it.

It was a serious error. National should have thought hard about deploying fake news during an election campaign in which truth and honesty have been weaponised by their opposition.

Johnathon Milne writes:

Finance minister devalues the word ‘sorry’ further than he ever lowered the NZ dollar

And this election campaign, Joyce has dragged a new leader into the muck with his claim that there was an $11.7 billion “fiscal hole” in Labour’s campaign promises. Bill English was forced to stand by his man this week – even though there wasn’t an economist in the land who didn’t dismiss Joyce’s claims as fantasy or worse.

Challenged on live radio to explain why he couldn’t substantiate his discredited calculations, Joyce took the cynical art of the cheap apology to a new low. “Well I’m sorry ,” he said, “but … they’re accurate.”

And with that, New Zealand’s finance minister devalued the word “sorry” further than he or his predecessors have ever lowered the New Zealand dollar.

Even those who have supported National in the past must see that this current bunch have lost their way. National needs to renew itself, some time in opposition will do them good. Don’t vote for liars.

77 comments on “The election of truth vs lies ”

  1. Gristle 1

    In my opinion using Hooton to back up your valid argument (that English and Joyce are happy to lie with intention of invalidating democracy) has the unfortunate result of validating Hooton and reducing the strength of your case.

    I am undecided whether to view Hooton as primarily a gun for hire (now for Act) or that personnel ideology reinforces his commercial self-interest. Either way garlic, holy water, crucifixes, wooden stakes and silver bullets should be readily available if you are going to use him as a supporting opinion.

    • r0b 1.1

      Hooton is an amoral stirrer, but I don’t mind quoting him when he’s right.

    • Yes, Hooton was quite happy with Paula Bennett’s previous release of private information about beneficiaries. So, we really have to question his conversion to supporting honest politics now.

      • tracey 1.2.1

        Yes. Although a stopped clock is right twice a day. Hootons broken record is Right all day long.

    • tracey 1.3

      Yes. Hooton has ample opportunity to live what he now expects us to believe. Instead he always chooses to be a peddlar. Distancing yourself from a lying machine which you gleefully took part is dirty pool. Remember when hwe happily took a wage to obstruct OIAs. That is the real Hooton. This one is just trying to ensure work post election. Bah.

  2. One Anonymous Bloke 2

    What’s new? Dishonesty has always been the National Party’s go-to tactic. They might as well change their name to the Amygdala Party.

    • Dan 2.1

      I dug around for the list of Key’s lies. The current crew are not nearly as good at getting away with the lies.
      One source is Jan 27 2016 Blip writing The great big list of John Key’s big fat lies (UPDATED)

  3. Ed 3

    The issue of truth vs lies is compounded by the fact New Zealand barely has a 4th estate worth mentioning now.
    There are lone independent voices but no organisations independent of corporate or government control.

  4. Anne 4

    There was another lie on Q&A this morning. Scott Simpson (National) claimed Labour was planning to charge farmers 10c per litre of water when it is actually 2c per 1000 litres of water.

  5. Alan 5

    is withholding information on what you intend to do with taxation akin to lying to the electorate – yes.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 5.1

      Is inventing strawman arguments lying? Yes.

    • Ed 5.2

      How are National planning to pay for all the promises they’ve made in the past 3 weeks?

      • riffer 5.2.1

        Strangely enough, they don’t need to account for that, due to their “superior economic management skills.”

    • Ed 5.3

      That someone like you can accept our terrible social statistics ( prison, health, homelessness, mental health, poverty, inequality) by defending the actions of this government says so much.

      • Alan 5.3.1

        that someone like you thinks that these problems can be fixed by taxing the shit out hard working kiwis says so much

        • Ed 5.3.1.1

          By hard working Kiwis I assume you mean rich New Zealanders.
          The fact that there are many hardworking New Zealanders who get paid so little that they have to go to food banks.
          You knew that, didn’t you?
          Or am I talking to someone not fully aware of the facts.

          Taxing big corporations and property speculators- both who don’t pay their share and making the rich pay their share before Key gave them a tax cut is a fairer system.

          A large number of National Party’s supporters don’t pay income tax. They are retired and receiving a state benefit.

          • Alan 5.3.1.1.1

            nice try ed, i mean the kiwis that give a fuck and get off their arses

            • Carolyn_nth 5.3.1.1.1.1

              seriously? You mean all those middle-class people sitting in their homes, doing sweet FA, and rubbing their hands as the monetary values of their properties keeps rising?

              You mean the slum landlords getting rich of substandard rentals, while putting little effort to maintain those properties?

              • Alan

                carolyn, you are being obtuse, as you well know the vast majority of , your phrase, “middle class people ” have worked hard for the majority of their lives – doing sweet FA is what gets people in the shit, not houses

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  Whereas you’re just being dishonest, and you can’t even find original lies to tell.

                  No, wait, you actually believe this shite, eh.

                  • Ed

                    He either believes what he’s saying and is too scared to look at the other side.
                    Or he’s lying to suit his political point of view and further his own selfish interests.

                    What have we learnt about National Party people this week after the claims of Joyce and Tolley?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      If you ask me, when he talks about the “hard-working middle class”, I think he means white people: his dim-bulb mind just doesn’t want everyone to know what a bigot he is.

                • Ed

                  You choose not to educate yourself and repeat redneck hate speech against the poor.
                  You will never watch Nigel Latta or Bryan Bruce’s documentaries about poverty and inequality. Yet you will double down on your ignorant prejudices.
                  I feel sorry for you.

                • Carolyn_nth

                  Housing speculation HAS majorly contributed to a lot of people being homeless, including many of the hard working poor.

                • Muttonbird

                  There’s an exponentialism (new word) involved in the explosion in the value of residential home assets. Those who have benefitted from this, rather than doing ‘hard work’ did not lift a solitary fucking finger.

                  Those who have not benefitted are in increasing numbers and are fed up with the shifting of the ground. It’s not unreasonable for the young to expect similar and stable conditions with respect to housing affordability from year to year but this has not happened.

                  • Ed

                    Indeed it could be argued that hardworking poor New Zealanders are paying too much tax through income tax and GST , while rich lazy New Zealanders are not paying their fair share as the income they’ve got from rising house prices had no tax.

                    How much did Key make out his Parnell mansion?
                    How much was he taxed? I doubt Talasia and Sio had the time to swan around golf courses and take frequent holidays to Hawaii.
                    Who really are the lazy ones in our society?

                  • xanthe

                    “There’s an exponentialism (new word)”

                    And a very good one!
                    The belief that exponential growth is not only necessary but possible!

                    this belief underpins neo-liberalism and is the root cause of environmental destruction … climate change

                • AB

                  That’s the ‘Just-world fallacy’.
                  Fact is peoples’ income/wealth bears little correlation to how hard they have worked, the degree of difficulty of what they have done, or the social value of their outputs.
                  Case in point:
                  – John Key worth $50-100M from speculating on the relative movement of currencies and recently sold a house for $20M.
                  – A&E nurse $55k/year patching people up and doomed to life-long renting
                  Societies run by sane, rational people recognise this and redistribute stuff around via the social wage

            • One Anonymous Bloke 5.3.1.1.1.2

              Not you then. You’re a lazy lying fearful troll who even bludges his lies.

              • Alan

                lazy?
                I work about 55 hours per week, what do you do OAB?

                • Ed

                  Talasia and Sio work long hours and don’t have enough to live on.
                  But Alan works 55 hours so the problems of low paid work in NZ doesn’t exist.
                  How ignorant are you?

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  And all this busy-ness leaves you too tired to invent some new lies to tell? Or are you always this lacking in imagination?

                  Nah, you’re so lazy you uncritically swallow the complete gobshite you’ve been spoon-fed, and are now regurgitating here today.

                  Why do you have to work such long hours? Can’t get a decent hourly rate with such poor skills? I mean, I love my work but I like to have a life too.

                • Ah, so you admit to working far too long and thus taking work off of others and forcing them into poverty.

                  A job that requires 60 hours per week should see two people employed full time and each one paid enough to live on.

                  • Alan

                    OAB and Draco, the voices of Venezuela in NZ, viva the revolution, snigger……

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Funny how losers always bring up Venezuela whenever the conversation gets a bit much for them.

                    • Ed

                      What has Venezuela got to do with the issue of the working poor and the levels of inequality in New Zealand.
                      If you want an international comparison, then look at Bryan Bruce’s doco that compared how children are treated by governments in Sweden and NZ.

                      In reality, you don’t care one bit about hardworking Kiwis.
                      You just care about Alan.

                    • And the uneducated RWNJ falls into the standard ad hominem when called on his lies and destructive actions.

                    • Ed

                      You really are ill informed on a variety of subjects.

                      1. Inequality and poverty in NZ.
                      2. South American politics

                      Here’s some more learning for you.
                      You really have very strong opinions for someone with so little grasp of the facts.
                      A little knowledge…..

                    • KJT

                      You forgot to mention, Haiti, Saudi Arabia, Guatemala, Detroit, and many other right wing paradises.

                • Carolyn_nth

                  All “hard work” is not equal in the contribution it makes to society, and in the remuneration it gets.

                  What does working hard for a tobacco company or the sugar industry, or the climate-denying factions of the oil industry contribute to health of society and the economy? It may enrich the “hard workers”, but doesn’t necessarily enrich society.

                  In contrast, many people working hard doing voluntary and unpaid domestic work make a valuable, long term social and economic well being.

                  Why should someone sitting back and benefiting from the rising value of their property (eg as admitted by Gareth Morgan), or being the CEO of a damaging corporation earn big bucks, while nurses, teachers, cleaners, bus drivers, fruit pickers, etc work hard for relatively meagre incomes?

                • One Two

                  55 The Death Number

                  Not that you needed to expose yourself any further, Alan

                  I’m actually hoping you’re handle is a bot..

                  Failing that, thinkers such as yourself are being rejected in greater numbers of the wider populace

                  Trust you have a good bug out plan in place…

                  Namaste

                • KJT

                  Inefficient desk bound time waster…..

            • Ed 5.3.1.1.1.3

              Watch the story of Talasia and Sio.
              Then judge.

              https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/nigel-latta/episodes/s1-e4

            • Ed 5.3.1.1.1.4

              Do you like the cleaners who work at or below minimum wage?

            • red-blooded 5.3.1.1.1.5

              Hey Alan, plenty of us who give a shit and get off our arses work in areas like health and education. everything we earn and spend is taxed. Why should some folk pay tax on their earnings and activities and some folk not?

            • Ken 5.3.1.1.1.6

              So you definitely don’t mean foreign speculators and foreign watter bottling companies then Alan?

          • Robert Guyton 5.3.1.1.2

            Or someone without a conscience.

            • Ed 5.3.1.1.2.1

              Alan must be ready to vote for a party prepared to pay the living wage if his concern for hardworking New Zealanders is not totally false.

        • Carolyn_nth 5.3.1.2

          Some hard working Kiwis are doing fine and will still be doing fine if they pay a little more tax. Some hard working Kiwis are struggling: cannot afford or get access to adequate housing, health or education.

          The fact you use “hard working Kiwis” as some kind of blanket argument against raising taxes on the well off, to a fairer level, says it all really.

          Some benefiting from speculative finance, property investments, etc, are probably not getting wealthy from a lot of “hard work” – just from an unfair system.

          Some Kiwis cannot work as hard as others, even if they wanted to, due to ill health, injuries, lack of access to suitable jobs.

          • Draco T Bastard 5.3.1.2.1

            Some benefiting from speculative finance, property investments, etc, are probably not getting wealthy from a lot of “hard work” – just from an unfair system.

            QFT

        • One Anonymous Bloke 5.3.1.3

          Will the sky fall on your head, Chicken Liar?

          Repeating someone else’s stale lies are the best you can do. What’s the matter, are you so unimaginative that you can’t even make up new lies? Gish gallop fail.

        • Ed 5.3.1.4

          Are property speculators hard working Kiwis?
          Is the McDonalds corporation a hard working Kiwi?

        • mikesh 5.3.1.5

          Would you prefer to see them solved by unpaid volunteers?

    • Robert Guyton 5.4

      Was saying ‘no gst hike’ then hiking it, lying Alan?
      Truthfully now!

    • reason 5.5

      Nationals unstated Tax policy ….; ““the wealthy are able to pursue a segregationist agenda, by opting out of the public provision of education, health, policing, social welfare….”

      Its why the Panama papers whistle blower singled out John Key …. http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/8515361/Money-trail-leads-home-to-New-Zealand

      Nationals Tax policy disadvantages the vast majority of hard workers …….

      Economic Apartheid against the many ….

    • Tautoko Mangō Mata 5.6

      Are you referring to the rise in GST lied about by National? Or the fact that it was supposed to be fiscally neutral?

    • peterlepaysan 5.7

      Only if you have your mind up first.

      If you have not made up your mind, you appoint a committee too advise you.

      Apparently the embryonic committee is somewhat larger than G Robertson expected.
      Lying to the electorate cannot include ” there will be change, not sure what ,yet”.

      You may recall the nz electorate were invited to vote for a brighter future.

      Have you seen any signs of it, apart from political signs being removed from places where homeless sleep?

      A reformed tax system is long overdue, it is also very difficult to do.

      I take it that the current tax system suits you ,personally.

      Actually there is an electorate out there.

  6. Ed 6

    I shall repeat my entry from Mike as it’s more pertinent here.

    ‘Bryan Bruce has documentary out on TV3 Tuesday at 8.30 p.m.

    This is from his Facebook page on 7 September.

    “I have to get my facts right. Politicians don’t. In documentaries like the one coming up next Tuesday on THREE I have to make every effort to get my facts right. If I don’t do my research and just make stuff up then I face the prospect that I and the broadcaster are fined for inaccuracy .(It’s never happened to me by the way).

    Not so with National’s Cabinet members Steven Joyce or Anne Tolley When Finance Minister Joyce was asked by Guyon Espiner today to name one other person in New Zealand who agreed there was a $ 11.7 Billion hole in Labour’s fiscal policy he couldn’t do it

    And here’s Minister of Social Development Anne Tolley quoted in a Newsroom article by Bernard Hickey “In addition, one in five beneficiaries tell us that drug use is a barrier to them getting a job ” 1 in 5 …. Really? According to her own Ministry – last year, there were 31,791 referrals for drug testable positions nationwide and just 55 sanctions for failing a drug test.
    (See Herald http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11639758 )
    So which is it Minister? 1 in 5 beneficiaries on drugs.. or 1 in 576 according to your own actual tests?

    The more National just makes stuff up , the less credibility they have. Just take a look at the poll released tonight . National is at the lowest level its been since 2005.

    So … watch out for some inconvenient truths in my doco next Tuesday. Some politicians may squeal – but I can back up every fact I give with very credible resources.”

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1462834220465592&id=334536643295361&__tn__=%2As%2As-R

  7. Incognito 7

    Is failing to correct misconceptions caused by your own words and/or actions (particularly) when they suit your agenda a lie? Even when those misconceptions were unintended?

  8. Antoine 8

    > Even those who have supported National in the past must see that this current bunch have lost their way. National needs to renew itself, some time in opposition will do them good.

    Sign me up to this

    A.

  9. Alan 9

    Hooton is one of many commentators sponsored by National to spout their amoral propaganda to the masses. I can see a lot of them getting far less air time on public radio and TV once there is a new government. Just a bunch of evil people given a voice by a morally bankrupt government.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 9.1

      To avoid confusion, you might want to amend your handle – especially when people are still addressing comments to the ‘other’ Alan 🙂

      Edit: apologies in advance if you were here first.

    • Pat 9.2

      not sure about that….the monied lobbyists are not going to fold their tents and give up their historical influence simply because their man lost an election….if anything they are likely to redouble their efforts.

  10. Is ‘ Alan ‘ the new addition to the wanker paid troll RWNJ gang ? ,… or is ‘ he’ actually Leighton Smith using a pseudonym ?

    Hard working New Zealanders? L0L ! , – I’ll bet the bastard never held a bloody shovel in his life ! How many meters of concrete have you poured , Alan?

    Ill bet your hands are lily white and soft as a cats cock.

    Ever worked for $8.00 an hour in a sweat job 5 story’s up on scaffolding ? Yeah I did , painting bloody buildings . Years of that shit . More often that not on illegal scaffolding that the unregulated de-unionised building industry enabled after the neo liberal ‘reforms’.

    And Ruth Richardsons 1991 Employment Contracts Act.

    Eh , ‘ Alan’ .

    When I laboured out in the bush at age 20 pre 1984 I was on $18.00 bucks an hour. AND we had overtime , time and a half , double time and triple time. Depending on the work and depending if we had to work during public holidays just so that so creeps like you , ‘ Alan ‘ , … could have water in your gin and tonics . The kind of work we did was heavy construction out in the bush keeping Auckland’s water supply happening. Not nice flat suburban sections , ‘ Alan’ ,… but over gorges and cliffs. We also were on stand by to assist in regularly helping to put out forest fires just so RWNJ’s like you , … ‘Alan ‘ , … could enjoy a pleasant bush walk as of a weekend. ( And then there was search and rescue for morons like you who would go bush in shorts , tee shirt and jandals and then get lost ) . And it was more often than not bloody dangerous to boot. That’s why we received height money , foul air money ( working in tunnels) etc etc .

    So why did we get extra ?… because we were greedy buggers?

    NO , – because soft cock right wingers like yourself could have water in your toilets to flush away all the shit you speak.

    But you wouldn’t understand things like that now , would you , ‘ Alan’.

    So after the treasonous Douglas brought in his shit neo liberalism in 1984, – wages dropped to $8.00 , to $10.00, to $12.00, then stayed at $13.00 an hour for years. And now its only just topped $15.00 odd dollars an hour on a minimum wage , FFS !!!

    33 YEARS AFTER !!!!

    How much has the costs of living risen over the last 33 years , ‘ Alan’ ?

    Has it stayed static ?

    How much has the cost of food , rent , petrol , clothing , electricity , rates , school fees,, – you know , – the sort of basics arrogant shits like you take for granted gone up over 33 years , ‘ Alan’ ?

    Hard working New Zealanders my bloody arse!! , – you wouldn’t know ‘ hard work’ if you bloody fell over it. So stop trying to use the label ‘ hard work’ as a political football , – as if you ever did know anything at all about it.

    If you had EVER done any ‘ hard work’ in your miserable life , – you wouldn’t be such a toady for a corrupt bullshit thieving govt like National , – instead you would be lending your full weight to supporting the squaring away and reimbursing of 33 years deliberate theft of the New Zealand workers wage.

    • Wensleydale 10.1

      Don’t be so disrespectful to Mr Gibbs. He’s traveled a long way to be here tonight, and propping up David ‘Rimmer’ Seymour in Epsom is an exhausting exercise.

      • Incognito 10.1.1

        Come on! David Seymour is a hologram and weighs absolutely nothing so it’s very easy to ‘prop up’. In fact, you don’t even need a projection screen; just a little bit of empty space in the air would be enough – although he’s an H-series hologram, his font size is pretty small, about 0.3%.

      • WILD KATIPO 10.1.2

        my humble apologies…

  11. And here’s a little something that just might go a ways to expressing what people REALLY think about far right wing theft that been allowed to go on for 33 years in this country. Something I posted on TDB.

    Included in this is the plight of beneficiaries and the working poor. As for the middle class?… its only a matter of time before they start seeing their own kids futures screwed because of neo liberalism, – and those who support it.

    It constantly amazes how we , as a people, have accepted these shitheads who did this to us without a whimper , without lynch mobs in the streets.

    We hear all the trotted out excuses about retrospective justice being ‘ too hard’ , … that ‘ times have changed’ , ‘ we made a mistake’ and on and on and on… and what do we get ?

    Wimps like Guyon Espiner conducting hazy , misty camera shot interviews with grey haired old elders with an ‘ everyone’s grandparents ‘ type of setting , – painting a picture of wise elder statesmen and women and relying on sentimental nostalgia to soften the blatant criminality of these treasonous shitters!

    Like hell !!!

    Those scumsucking bastards stole our wealth , consigned thousands to lose their jobs, their houses, their businesses , set the conditions for thousands more children to die in cold damp houses in future years, sold off state housing and created a housing crisis so family’s now sleep in bloody cars , thousands died because of inadequate hospitals and long waiting lists , closed down tax payer paid for industry’s that employed tens of thousands, lied to us there would be lower prices for basic commodities because there would be more ‘competition, then proceeded to asset strip those SOE’s they bought for a song , made redundant many more thousands , and then proceeded to hike up prices so now family’s cant even afford to fucking heat their damn houses, – end result ? – even more bloody children developing third world diseases such as pneumonia and bronchiostasis. And on and on and on with countless other examples of their crap over 33 years of neo liberal treason.

    You know what this country reminds me of now ?!!?

    It reminds me of the same sort of slack shit attitude of places like Cambodia years after the killing fields.

    Or after the Bosnian war.

    Or even Japan and Germany after WW2.

    How?

    Because the same evil disgusting officious shit for brains that caused so much psychopathic and sadistic harm were still allowed to walk free years , – decades, – after they did what they did to thousands,- millions of innocent victims!!!

    About the only ones who didn’t let the sick fuckers get away with it were the Italians when they had no qualms dishing out fast rough justice to Mussolini and his wife and retainers.

    Now while I wouldn’t go that far , – 25 year prison sentences would suffice. They could spend their remaining ‘ golden years’ rotting inside a prison cell, – AFTER they had been asset stripped and forced to pay for their upkeep in prison out of their own finances.

    And AFTER they were forced to denounce neo liberalism publicly .

    You know we don’t support NAZISM in this country , – for good reasons. And one of the reasons is because we saw and can read historical facts of the more overt and disgusting things they did.

    But looking at the obvious is easy , – things like viewing piles of emaciated corpses and gas chambers in Auschwitz – anyone , even a child , …can do that and understand.

    It takes a little bit more effort to engage your brains and do a little bit of research and HUNT OUT the original ones BEHIND it all and understand its FOUNDATIONS , how that legacy still exists today , – and how it has been alive and well in NZ for the last three decades.

    So here’s a hint :

    1) Mont Pelerin Society. And their local branch ,…

    2) Business Roundtable ( now calling themselves the ‘ New Zealand
    Initiative ‘)

    And please bear in mind , – BOTH Roger Douglas AND Ruth Richardson were Board of Directors of the London based Mont Pelerin Society.

    Mont Pelerin Society Directory – DeSmogBlog
    https://www.desmogblog.com/…/Mont%20Pelerin%20Society%20Directory%202010

    NEW ZEALAND MONT PELERIN SOCIETY DIRECTORY – 2010
    _____________________
    Hon. Sir Roger Douglas
    1998, Life Member

    Mr. Roger L. Kerr
    New Zealand Business Roundtable
    1986

    Honorable Ruth Richardson
    Director
    Ruth Richardson [NZ] Ltd
    1996
    ……………………………….

    And to understand how all this fits together?

    READ THIS :

    New Right Fight – Who are the New Right?
    http://www.newrightfight.co.nz/pageA.html

    Then you will understand what and who I mean by NAZISM in New Zealand.

    * I may a little repetitious, and this may be a little off topic, … but anyone who supports current conditions under this National govt needs to be taking a good long hard look at themselves if they still think they have a conscience.

  12. Tanz 12

    Seriously voting Labour now, just for their ban on foreign investors and no fees to tertiary students, both good for our kids. Can’t imagine National or NZ First matching these policies, and I want to see our kids able to get ahead re education and to buy first homes. National need time in opposition, complacent and blind to what is wrecking NZ.
    Hurrah, high time Kiwis were put first re owning NZ homes.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 12.1

      I can’t imagine you informing yourself of what any party’s policies actually are. NZ 1st, for example, have essentially the same policy on residential housing.

      By all means vote according to your reckons if you must, after all, that’s what National’s followers do.

  13. Tanz 13

    Can’t be bothered wasting my time on you, OAB, full stop.

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