The great gaslighter

Written By: - Date published: 11:26 am, November 19th, 2024 - 44 comments
Categories: act, david seymour, making shit up, national, national/act government, Politics, spin, treaty settlements, you couldn't make this shit up - Tags:

You have to admire David Seymour’s ability to completely misrepresent reality.

Like yesterday in this Herald opinion piece where he calimed that the Treaty Principles Bill “commits to protecting the rights of everyone, including Māori, and upholding Treaty settlements. It commits to give equal enjoyment of the same fundamental human rights to every single New Zealander. The challenge for people who oppose this bill is to explain why they are so opposed to those basic principles.”

Or where he claimed that te Tiriti created a partnership between races.

Or that there are groups who want to “nullify the debate”.

Committing to protecting the rights of everyone sounds great but is nothing more than what existing law achieves. Seymour’s bill does not provide added protections. Check out the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 or the Human Rights Act 1993 if you need confirmation.

And suggesting that you have to change the Treaty of Waitangi principles to preserve fundamental human rights and if you oppose this you are also opposed to human rights is the gaslight to end gaslights.

Making a virtue of upholding treaty settlements is weird. Of course they should be upheld. The Bill would however nullify every treaty right that has not been formally recorded in a settlement deed. I wonder why Seymour did not mention this.

And te Tiriti is clearly not a partnership between races. it is an agreement reached between the Crown and Māori.

As for nullifying the debate I presume that Seymour means opposing the circus that he has created. As the Waitangi Tribunal has found if enacted his bill would be “the worst, most comprehensive breach of the Treaty / te Tiriti in modern times. If the Bill remained on the statute book for a considerable time or was never repealed, it could mean the end of the Treaty / te Tiriti.”

Seymour is that interested in a civilised debate on his bill that when former National Party Minister Christopher Finlayson said that the bill was doing great damage he said that Finlayson was showing haughtiness and bitterness.

And when former National Prime Minister Jenny Shipley said that Seymour was inciting civil war he cast aspertions on her tenure at Mainzeal.

Shipley’s comments were prescient and thoughtful.

I was young enough to remember Bastion Point, and look, the Treaty has helped us navigate. When people have had to raise their voice, it’s brought us back to what it’s been – an enduring relationship where people then try to find their way forward.

And I thought the voices of this week were completely and utterly appropriate, and whether they breach standing orders, I’ll put that aside.

The voice of Māori, that reminds us that this was an agreement, a contract – and you do not rip up a contract and then just say, ‘Well, I’m happy to rewrite it on my terms, but you don’t count’.

I would raise my voice. I’m proud that the National Party has said they will not be supporting this, because you cannot speak out of both sides of your mouth.

And I think any voice that’s raised, and there are many people – Pākehā and Māori who are not necessarily on this hīkoi – who believe that a relationship is something you keep working at. You don’t just throw it in the bin and then try and rewrite it as it suits you.

She was scathing in her description of what Seymour is doing:

I just despise people who want to use a treasure – which is what the Treaty is to me – and use it as a political tool that drives people to the left or the right, as opposed to inform us from our history and let it deliver a future that is actually who we are as New Zealanders … I condemn David Seymour for his using this, asking the public for money to fuel a campaign that I think really is going to divide New Zealand in a way that I haven’t lived through in my adult life. There’s been flashpoints, but I view this incredibly seriously.

And there are reports that National and NZ First want to shorten the select committee process for consideration of the bill. And that National MPs are being deluged with emails and that their support is taking a hammering.

And as I type this thousands upon thousands of Hikoi marchers are descending onto Parliament.

And David Seymour has not ruled out speaking to the crowd.

I suspect that he is grinning from ear to ear.

It is hard to imagine a better example of gaslighting than what he is doing now. Or another time when a minnow party has been allowed to create this amount of chaos in pursuit of the redneck vote.

44 comments on “The great gaslighter ”

  • Comments are now closed

  2. aj 2
    19 November 2024 at 12:09 pm

    A cunning and very dangerous man, should never have been let near the levers of power. Almost makes me regret MMP.

  3. SPC 3
    19 November 2024 at 12:12 pm

    He claimed he wanted a debate.

    The Maori are bringing the marae to Whanganui a Tara.

    The first principle of the Treaty is that there were two parties to it.

    And as for dawn birdsong, Maori are using Seymour to declare their indigenous peoples right to be consulted (a right to declare before the world – UN, UNDRIP) in such matters.

    All indigenous peoples will champion it.

    Which is why the National Party realise his methods are counter-productive, he has become the extremist that might have to be purged to ensure re-election (think the move to Birch by Bolger).

    • thinker 3.1
      19 November 2024 at 4:58 pm

      Being a qualified engineer, maths is probably one of Seymour's top subjects, so maybe he's wanting a maths debate.

      I'm guessing all those hikoi participants would have him marked as a maths debater.

      😁

  4. gsays 4
    19 November 2024 at 12:31 pm

    In line with the idea National are loosing support I am going to email my local (National) MP and suggest I am considering not voting for them as their handling of this affair has been atrocious.

    A line about fiscal responsibility in tough times will not go amiss

  5. SPC 5
    19 November 2024 at 12:33 pm

    The Treaty of Waitangi Act (October 10 1975) established the Waitangi Tribunal.

    A land march arrived on Oct 13 1975 to demand it do "good work"

    Some parties that want to fast track this bill to oblivion, are themselves out to remove references to the Treaty from legislation and also undermine the role of the Waitangi Tribunal.

    • Incognito 5.1
      19 November 2024 at 2:41 pm

      Neutering the Waitangi Tribunal in this manner is akin excluding somebody from participating in their own End of Life decisions.

  6. SPC 6
    19 November 2024 at 1:13 pm

    The story is that there is no catch.

    Just avoid using adjectives to describe Seymour and it is, as easy as.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/360491786/treaty-principles-bill-opens-submissions-however-there-catch

  8. koina 8
    19 November 2024 at 2:09 pm

    "It is hard to imagine a better example of gaslighting than what he is doing now. Or another time when a minnow party has been allowed to create this amount of chaos in pursuit of the red neck vote."

    Well several things.

    1. It's not hard to imagine gaslighting because gaslighting is a fundamental component of all political debate.

    2. Hard to imagine a minnow party allowed to create this amount of chaos in pursuit of the red neck vote.? Well not minnow party but pursuing the red neck vote you need look no further than National under Muldoon and Bolger with the likes of Norm Jones John Banks and Lockwood-Smith. And Winston Peters the Honorary White in Parliament for 46 years condemning all minorities especially Maori and NZF staying in Parliament on the back of their immigrant hate policy.

    3. Broadly speaking the majority of White voters those on the left included are attracted to minority hate like hyena on methamphetamine. The supposed White opposition to Seymour 's anti Maori Rhetoric is tepid at best and if the truth be known the majority of left wing whites actually agree with Seymour.

    Appealing to White prejudice ignorance fear entitlement and power is the most profitable vote catcher in the political schemata so minority bashing is not going anywhere any time soon.

    4. The one positive to come from the 180 year White hate campaign against Maori is that we as Maori can say unequivocally we are not one people we have never been one people and we never ever want to be one people. Something to celebrate at least.

    • Muttonbird 8.1
      19 November 2024 at 2:22 pm

      And if the truth be known the majority of left wing whites actually agree with Seymour.

      I find that very hard to believe. I'd go so far as to say it is outright bullshit.

      Was prepared to give you a go but you have some weird anarchist issues to sort through, and can't seem to pick friend from foe.

      Good luck, hombre.

    • SPC 8.2
      19 November 2024 at 2:37 pm

      The following statement is a working example of gaslighting.

      and if the truth be known the majority of left wing whites actually agree with Seymour.

      On what?

      Even the centre-right opposes Seymour on this matter.

      • Anne 8.2.1
        19 November 2024 at 6:43 pm

        As Willie Jackson succinctly pointed out:

        "He's a liar". I have rarely – if ever – heard him tell the truth.

    • Incognito 8.3
      19 November 2024 at 3:16 pm

      … and if the truth be known the majority of left wing whites actually agree with Seymour.

      You pulled that one out of your arse.

      I’d agree with Seymour that your comments here have been divisive, disrespectful & hateful, and racist.

      • koina 8.3.1
        19 November 2024 at 6:17 pm

        Well there you go you just admitted you agree with Seymour.

        I remember the 1975 Hikoi. I was on it.

        How many people on this site can honestly say they were on the Hikoi in 1975?

        I would also like to know how many people on this site attended

        Treaty claim sittings and how many visit a Marae regularly for context.

        If White people had truly embraced the Treaty claims process over the past 50 years we would not be having this issue and this Hikoi.

        This is the simple brutal truth.

        50 years!!!

        The fact that the majority of Whites voted for a massive Right wing landslide victory in 2023 based on Maori bashing suggests very strongly that the majority of White people did not embrace the Treaty claim process at all.

        It is interesting to compare the Homosexual law reform bill of 1985 .

        That bill was surrounded by far more hate and spite than this Treaty principle bill.

        Yet the right wing has never since used homosexuality as a an election vote winner

        It would not work.

        But Maori bashing that never dies and is always an election winner.

        So you see I know my politics going back many decades .

        I am able to think for myself and don't bow down to threats and intimidation

        and I am far too clever to be distracted by psycho babble.

        • observer 8.3.1.1
          19 November 2024 at 6:49 pm

          "The fact that the majority of Whites voted for a massive Right wing landslide victory in 2023 based on Maori bashing "

          False. The dominant issue in the election campaign was the cost of living. Others like crime were prominent, and there was a Covid "hangover" too.

          All the evidence (polling, during and since the election) shows that Treaty issues were only a minor part of the 2023 election.

        • Patricia Bremner 8.3.1.2
          19 November 2024 at 10:31 pm

          You have a chip on your shoulder. It has led you into racist thinking.

          surprise People fell for tax cuts. end of.

          This government has taken things from Maori and all workers, and used public money to enrich their mates.

          The Hikoi today was us saying we won't be tricked into fighting each other, because we now see the enemy clearly after 12 months.

          Luxon let this happen, and Seymour is a calculating passive aggressive weed infesting our politics. There you are David I did not swear!!

          Today, we said "We see you."

        • thinker 8.3.1.3
          19 November 2024 at 10:44 pm

          "The fact that the majority of Whites voted for a massive Right wing landslide victory in 2023 based on Maori bashing…"

          Given that what you call the Maori-bashing bill was an ACT party condition of the coalition agreement it's clear that the majority of white people voted for change for other reasons.

          And please don't stereotype people based on the colour of their skin. I'm sure some Maori people would have voted for David Seymour. Almost half of voters of all persuasions voted for parties well opposed to this divisive bill.

          Be careful you don't get caught up in polarizing people, it only helps the bill achieve it's subtle aims.

        • Incognito 8.3.1.4
          20 November 2024 at 6:58 pm

          I pondered whether I should waste more time on you or not. However, it’s good to have a documented record of your trolling here, so here goes.

          Well there you go you just admitted you agree with Seymour.

          No, you’re not clever enough to know the difference between “I’d agree" and "I agree”.

          Next, you divert.

          The fact that the majority of Whites voted for a massive Right wing landslide victory in 2023 …

          No, the combined party vote for NAT+ACT+NZF was the same in 2023 as in 2017; 2020 was a Covid-19 ‘anomaly’ [I hope that’s not too much ‘psycho babble’ for you].

          Next, more diversion from you.

          and I am far too clever to be distracted by psycho babble.

          You’re so clever that not once you addressed the fact that you pulled your claim about ‘the majority of left wing whites’ out of your arse.

          In fact, you’re a dim-witted diversion troll.

  9. barry 9
    19 November 2024 at 5:06 pm

    I don't like the fact that Seymour is framing the issue and forcing everyone to respond. We can't not fight back, but it is all completely unnecessary

    In the end it is a distraction while they pick our pockets.

  10. Ad 10
    19 November 2024 at 6:27 pm

    Such a good day in New Zealand's political life. Encouraging and heartfelt and peaceful.

    Very impressed that the Maori Queen marched as well – that is kind-of like the Governor General marching against government.

    Helps wash away the memory of the last big one which was the Howl of a Protest with tractors.

  11. observer 11
    19 November 2024 at 6:37 pm

    Compare and contrast, 2 very different protests at Parliament.

    Today, entirely peaceful (according to police). Tens of thousands.

    2022: a much smaller "protest" that included assaults on workers, journalists, death threats to MPs, hateful rhetoric about Nazis, and much, much more. And produced serious violence. None of which happened today.

    A protest that David Seymour was happy to meet, because "they feel no one is listening to them".

    (You'd think everyone would remember that and ask David Seymour about it, but sadly the media memory hole is as vast as ever. Can't even think back to 2022).

    But in case anyone has forgotten …

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/462555/as-it-happened-anti-mandate-protest-enters-23rd-day-as-police-descend-on-parliament

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Wellington_protest

    • Incognito 11.1
      19 November 2024 at 6:47 pm

      Where was Winnie today??

      • Muttonbird 11.1.1
        19 November 2024 at 8:29 pm

        Where was the prime minister today?

        No hanging effigies in front of parliament this time so he should have managed to muster at least two testicles to face Hīkoi mō te Tiriti.

        No surprise, he was absent on one of the most important days in Aotearoa NZ history.

        Bald clown.

        • Incognito 11.1.1.1
          19 November 2024 at 8:37 pm

          Baldrick didn’t address the Parliament protestors in 2022, but Winnie did. So, Winnie was away and who knows where?

          • Muttonbird 11.1.1.1.1
            19 November 2024 at 8:44 pm

            Are you protecting Luxon by claiming the 2022 parliament protests are the equivalent of today?

            I can assure you they are not.

    • satty 11.2
      19 November 2024 at 7:27 pm

      And no mountains of rubbish afterwards.

    • Mike the Lefty 11.3
      19 November 2024 at 8:13 pm

      No arrests, no bricks or shit thrown at police.

      Seymour was hoping for a wild mob of destructive obscenity howling hooligans so he could say to his colleagues and supporters" you see I was right about them…"

      But when he looked he saw the opposite, and he couldn't handle the truth so he left.

  12. Sean 12
    19 November 2024 at 7:04 pm

    Crazy, there are currently over 17 vague principles that have been developed since 1987 by the courts, but not officially recognised. Lots of legislation refer to the principles, but no principles have been confirmed: the courts, the labour party, and the waitangi tribunal. Two of the current principles mirror Seymour's 1st and 3rd ones in the bill. The only issue is the 2nd. Māori should get behind it and work with the govt to define principles that everyone is happy with!!!!

    • Muttonbird 12.1
      19 November 2024 at 7:23 pm

      Oh, god. Here’s another RW crank.

    • SPC 12.2
      19 November 2024 at 7:41 pm

      Some things are determined by referenda, some things are not.

      The ruse is of a design to

      1.manage/constrain future governments.

      2.limit existing Treaty rights, already recognised by courts and legislation.

    • KJT 12.3
      20 November 2024 at 7:08 pm

      the bill is about opening up New Zealand to corporate exploitation for profit. It’s as simple as that.

  13. Muttonbird 13
    19 November 2024 at 7:21 pm

    ACT/Atlas are really hurting after the Maori party haka, so simple and done in a few short minutes, it has been viewed 700m times and has potentially re-awakened indigenous rights groups the world over.

    Maori did that because Maori, if I'm not mistaken, are leaders in fighting for indigenous rights and against post-colonialism.

    Atlas and Seymour's financial backers will be asking for a please explain how his pet project managed to energise the disenfranchised in this country and many others.

  14. Muttonbird 14
    19 November 2024 at 7:46 pm

    So much to go over on this one. Lisa Owen gets Rimmer at a bad moment. He tries to gaslight 42,000-55,000 people claiming they don't work so don't count:

    Checkpoint host Lisa Owen said he had been wanting to promote a conversation, and asked if today was the conversation he had imagined?

    Submissions were now open to the public as the bill was before the justice committee, he said – and anybody could have their say on the bill "and the way we intention… sorry… see the Treaty in modern times".

    "I think at the end of the day the overwhelming majority of New Zealanders are at work, going to school, and they'll be able to engage in this debate in their own way.

    "So you wouldn't want to take this hikoi as being representative of New Zealand."

    Owen circled back to the comment about how he "intentioned" the Treaty to be in modern times, and Seymour said he misspoke. "I don't know where that word came from."

    Mis-speaking is rare for Rimmer so he is obviously under a lot of pressure. His masters will notice this.

    Owen (said) many others around the country – including KCs, Christian leaders and the Human Rights Commissioner – had voiced their opposition to the bill.

    "First of all, can I just note you started off with priests, then you were down to 40 lawyers and you finished off with the Human Rights Commissioner," Seymour replied.

    "I mean, it's not exactly a star-studded cast, and many of those so-called religious leaders on further inspection turned out not to be anything of the sort. But we'll put that aside."

    Owen asked Seymour if he was dismissing a broad spectrum of New Zealanders with that statement.

    He pointed to a survey – but did not name the source – that found when asked if they were in favour of the principles proposed in his bill, 25 percent of people were opposed, and a further 29 percent were still making up their minds.

    The survey is the TPU/Curia polling which in light of Curia's expulsion from the research industry body leaves a lot to be desired.

    What is more important here is that Seymour himself is too embarrassed to name David Farrar, Curia, and the TPU in the interview. How times have changed since Jong Khee lauded Farrar after the 2014 election.

    The rest is rank, superior rubbish by the racist David Seymour, so read it with warning:

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/534223/hikoi-not-representative-of-new-zealand-david-seymour-says

    • Incognito 14.1
      19 November 2024 at 8:03 pm

      Seymour is right, of course; 42,000-55,000 people only represent about 1% of the NZ population. But it is about 44-57 times the size of that poll by Curia with 100.0% of people absolutely 100.0% sure.

      • Macro 14.1.1
        19 November 2024 at 9:10 pm

        They also handed over a petion with around 200,000 signatures asking for the Bill to be canned, also 100% opposed to the Bill.

        • Incognito 14.1.1.1
          19 November 2024 at 9:26 pm

          That’s real people power and about half-way to a citizen’s referendum. I hope it doesn’t fizzle out.

  15. John 15
    20 November 2024 at 9:58 am

    The bill will not go through we all know that,my fear is the resolve of the white Act Party will be hardened by these events.The next round of polls will be interesting

    [Please stick to your regular user handle, thanks – Incognito]

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