The Scottish Referendum

Written By: - Date published: 12:22 pm, September 19th, 2014 - 101 comments
Categories: International, uk politics - Tags:

scotland

The polls are now closed and counting is underway to see if Scotland asserts its right to be an independent nation again.

Every web site I just tried to find out details of the count is down.  There must be huge world wide interest in it.  From what I have been able to find out the turnout is approaching 90%.

Anyway this post is for comments and breaking news.

Update:  For twitter followers the hashtag #ScotlandDecides will provide updating tweets.

101 comments on “The Scottish Referendum”

  1. weka 1

    It’ll be nice to have a break from the other stuff to be honest.

  2. ghostwhowalksnz 3

    Stranger things have happened.

    In 1933 West Australia voted 66% in favour of succession from the commonwealth.

    And nothing happened. It didnt help that the anti succession Labour Party won the state election held on the same day.

  3. joe90 4

    The Glaswegians in the street stream is hilarious, drunks and all.

    • Rosie 4.1

      Thats a good one 🙂

      I’ve been looking at the BBC site you put up on Open Mike. So far, Orkney turned out the NO vote, 67.20% and Clackmannanshire NO by 53.80%………………just as well I just got a mini bottle of bubbly for later and not a proper one………….

      I hope this isn’t the beginning of a trend.

  4. karol 5

    Al Jazeera are expecting the results to be known around 8.30pm-9pm our time.

  5. ghostwhowalksnz 6

    Official turnout results in Glasgow are only 75%

    Thats 364000 voters. So much for the predictions of up to 90%.

    if Quebec couldnt do it in two tries then I dont think Scotland will and the margin will be wider than expected

  6. ghostwhowalksnz 7

    SNP looking downcast in Aberdeenshire.
    This is one of their strongest areas.

    Its 2am in Scotland and barely results announced. I thought counting numbers was a Scottish obession.
    Are there any progress results by polling places ?

    • Colonial Viper 7.1

      we do this election counting stuff brilliantly in NZ, in a sense I think we are spoilt. I reckon we will have a near complete count announced within 5 hrs of our own polls closing (i.e. where the Scots are right now with about 3% counted).

  7. Colonial Viper 8

    Scotland independence is going to be a winner regardless of which way the numbers fall. Westminster has been falling over itself promising the Scots new powers and independence if they stay in the union.

    • ghostwhowalksnz 8.1

      They can kiss goodbye to the extra 1600 pounds per head of spending if the English tories have any say.

    • And Tory MPs have already promised that the Scots won’t get many of those new powers.

      I think no will win, and when Cameron guts the NHS, the Scots will have only themselves to blame.

      • greywarbler 8.2.1

        @ Tom Jackson 8.2
        You talk as if the Scots are throwing a hissy fit over nothing. There have been numerous checks to Scotland over the years. These have mounted up. I think the fascist tendency that the English have allowed to develop there has struck a warning bell for action now.

        ‘At the end of the day’ whether the Scots go independent or stay with an increasingly medieval England, there will be problems. They must apply their fine spirit and their high educational talents to overcome these working together.

        Possibly it would be more correct that Labour have only themselves to blame. Stick the middle way – go the Scots has become the ingrained slogan north o’ the border.

      • ghostwhowalksnz 8.2.2

        The tories arent even a majority in the commons, the additional powers were a three party agreement so could go ahead even with revolt from the shires

      • ghostwhowalksnz 8.2.3

        Please get your facts right.

        A few tories are unhappy, and Scotland controls the NHS north of the border

  8. joe90 9

    I think no will win, and when Cameron guts the NHS, the Scots will have only themselves to blame.

    Labour and Gordon Brown have done their best to nobble the yes vote.

    Banks and other corporate giants warning that the roof will cave in; a near-hysterical media that leaves broad swaths of public opinion ignored – if the Labour leadership wants to know what to expect in the runup to next year’s election, they should regard the establishment campaign against Scottish independence as a foretaste of what is to come. But therein lies the problem, of course. Labour’s leaders have cheered on this campaign, and will be reminded of this fact at every opportunity when they complain of “scaremongering” when the same strategy is directed at them in the spring months of 2015.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/17/fear-scottish-independence-foretaste-labour-general-election

  9. Molly 10

    Inverclyde 49.9 Yes votes.

    Closest result as yet.

  10. rich the other 11

    It looks like common sense is prevailing in Scotland , a good omen for Key .
    At the end of the day reality will prevail in both instances .

    • yeshe 11.1

      You have just won a gold star in the unadulterated drivel contest for the worst and shortest sentence with three non-sequiturs.

  11. mickysavage 12

    Dundee just came in with a 57% yes vote. Overall the count has tightened right up …

  12. greywarbler 13

    So far the No votes are winning by a few points with 5 of 32 councils counted.
    Inverclyde I think it was, nearly even.
    But the two island groups, Shetland and Orkney are both overwhelming for staying with Britain – only about 1/3 for change. There is a majority for the No’s of about 9,000 votes for the two island groups..

  13. mickysavage 14

    West Dumbarton votes AYE. All tied up now and I get the feeling that was an unexpected result.

    • ghostwhowalksnz 14.1

      All tied up ? Its still only 46.9% for yes vote at this point. Only 2 of 12 councils are yes majority

    • Not really. Every region that voted Yes was expected to (and by bigger margins). The surprises were places like the Western Isles voting no. That was one of the early places to declare and at that point, you could tell anybody reasonably informed in Scottish politics (not a whole lot of people here it seems – not knowing that the Orkneys are a unionist, Lib Dem fortress) knew the vote was already decided.

  14. Bill 15

    Worth noting that with a veritable onslaught from pro-union media sources – (only one newspaper in Scotland backed ‘yes’), and with major financial/business circles running endless doom scenarios should the ‘Yes’ vote prevail (disinvestment/ relocation etc), and on top of that, all Westminster parties being vociferously pro-union (including Labour that had ‘home rule’ in its original constitution)… and eligible voters being (rightly) inclusive of English and people of other various nationalities living in Scotland, still half of the people will vote for ‘Yes’.

    Regardless of the final tally, the union is dead.

    I find it amusing that the ‘No’ camp accuses the ‘Yes’ camp of voting with their hearts rather than their heads, while completely overlooking the protestant-unionist mindset that pervades Scotland and that is wholly non-cerebral, borne as it is on the back of deep anti-Catholic bigotry/sectarianism.

    Anyway, ‘No’ voters should have acknowledged the inevitability of independence and voted ‘yes’. I mean that seriously. The ‘Yes’ camp – who have been the more engaged, active and informed – won’t just go away after any ‘No’ result.

    I guess on the results so far, that I might be waiting a little longer before I can shed the albatross of British citizenship and take up my legal right to Scottish citizenship 😉

    • ghostwhowalksnz 15.1

      Regardless of the final tally, the union is dead.

      Tell that to Quebec.

      And its absurd for you to have a legal right to Scots citizenship. A big believer in hereditary rights are you ?

      • Colonial Viper 15.1.1

        Some people actually feel a connection to their forebearers, yeah.

      • Bill 15.1.2

        I was born there. I’m not a NZ citizen. But at the moment there is no such thing as a Scottish citizen (or an English citizen for that matter), hence the British passport etc. So yeah, I don’t quite understand your point about ‘hereditary rights’.

        Also, there are major differences between the situation in Quebec and the situation in Scotland.

      • adam 15.1.3

        I think you’re missing the fact that now Wales, North Ireland and the Channel Islands all have issues with westminster. The debate at the very least has erupted, and indeed many from the north of england are quietly hoping for Scottish independence – they too have suffered under neo-liberalism. I think GB now has a fundamental constitutional crisis on it’s hands no matter what the result – and I think Bill nailed it – The Union is dead. It may take some time to die, but the union is dead.

      • DS 15.1.4

        The underlying issues that drove Quebec separatism have largely vanished. Unless there is a revolution in Westminster, the underlying issues driving Scottish nationalism will linger.

        • ghostwhowalksnz 15.1.4.1

          Quebec had issues about the French language.
          Scotland doesnt even have a separate language to be an issue.

          Clutching at straws much !
          As Cullen , educated at Edinburgh University, said. Its lost , eat that.

          • Tom Jackson 15.1.4.1.1

            You are sadly mistaken. The UK now has to devolve even more powers to the Scottish parliament or risk a backlash. If UK Tories prevent that from happening, there will be a further backlash, which would haste independence.

            Whichever way the Scots would have voted, they gained a lot.

            And it’s nothing like Quebec. You need to get out more. Language is part of it, but there is a great deal more than that.

          • Bill 15.1.4.1.2

            Well, apart from Gaelic being not English, there are matters such as control of natural resources (eg, oil exploration and revenue), democratic accountability,(Scotland consistently votes ‘left’ but gets governed by a ‘right’ leaning Westminster anyway) quite distinct cultural perspectives and histories, control and funding of education, health and law (already separate entities within a UK context, meaning – free University education in Scotland, state provided old folk care and no privatisation of the NHS in Scotland etc…but no monetary powers to pursue or safeguard these things), tax raising powers (lack of), job creation powers (lack of) , divergence on foreign policy matters (eg – war in Iraq), nuclear arms policy (all the UK’s nuclear arms are located in Scotland)…that’s just off the top of my head.

            • ghostwhowalksnz 15.1.4.1.2.1

              Gaelic, the scots variety, developed out of Old Irish.

              Lowland Scots is a northern version of Old English.

              Control and funding are different things. Scotland is over funded per head compared to England.
              “The Scottish Government has the power to raise or lower the rate of income tax in Scotland by up to 3p in the pound. It is also able to vary business rates and can regulate the application of local taxes such as the council tax levied by local authorities in Scotland. The Scottish Government has full control over how Scotland’s annual block grant is divided between government departments, ..”

          • JRT 15.1.4.1.3

            The Scottish referendum was mostly about Westminster and the neolib Tory governments. Those problems remain. If the neolibs continue to wreak havoc in the UK then there will be another referendum, the Yes side will be better prepared and the people who chickened out at the last moment won’t make that mistake again. It has taken two referendums for the Scots to get devolution, it will probably take two for them to get independence.

            • ghostwhowalksnz 15.1.4.1.3.1

              Neolibs wreak havoc ? Maybe.
              But not in Scotland

              • JRT

                The neolibs in Westminster can do whatever they like to Scotland. Everything Scotland currently has is by grace and favour, and Westminster can change the rules to suit themselves whenever they like. They can take away the Scottish parliament if they so wish. Scotland remain at the mercy of Westminster, and will do so until they get independence.

                • ghostwhowalksnz

                  No its not a grace and favour.

                  the Scottish government has real powers and will get some more.

                  Cameron and co arent like Stalin and do what they like.

                  • JRT

                    You really need to go away and do some research. Westminster has the authority to give powers, and to take powers away from the Scots. There is a legal triple lock that means all the power is ultimately still held by Westminster.

          • DS 15.1.4.1.4

            Quebec’s issues pertain to the language, yes. But they have been largely dealt with, both at the political and at the cultural level.

            Scotland’s issues pertain to post-1979 neoliberalism in Westminster. Unless you get a Government prepared to tear up Thatcher’s legacy, discontent in Scotland will remain.

            • ghostwhowalksnz 15.1.4.1.4.1

              Thatcher is long dead. Doesnt mean the shipyards and coalmines are coming back.

              The NHS in Scotland is run from Edinburgh, the Education system doesnt have fee paying universities.
              What specific neo-liberal thatcherite bogeys are you unhappy about.

              • DS

                In case you didn’t notice, the Tory Party in Scotland is dead. It has one MP in Westminster, a reflection of how Thatcherism’s legacy is hated.

                Despite that, there is a Tory Government at Westminster, one every bit as neoliberal as Thatcher (if not more so), with plenty of powers that haven’t been devolved to Holyrood:

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserved_and_excepted_matters

                That’s why Salmond actually wanted a third option on the referendum, the so-called Devo-Max option, whereby Scotland would be self-governing on pretty much everything apart from foreign affairs and military.

                Also, if the Tories really wanted, they could override any devolved decisions (parliament being sovereign, and all). Never underestimate the craziness of Tory backbenchers from the Shires.

                • ghostwhowalksnz

                  This doesnt make any sense. Salmond has wanted independence full stop.
                  Are you saying SNP really wanted devo max, but if you insist independence is our second choice ?

                  AS for the Tories in Scotland, they were a separate Unionist party until 1965. But Unionist MPs such as Bonar Law and Douglas- Home ended up as Prime Ministers in Westminister.
                  In 1997 they were wiped out. Thats when New Labour and Tony Blair came in.

                  Thatcher policies were only part of it

                  If I were the Scottish Conservatives, I would rebrand as Unionist pronto

                  • Bill

                    As I understand it, the SNP wanted the ballot paper to give three choices – one of those was ‘devo max’. In the horsetrading, ‘devo max’ was lost, but 16 and 17 year olds got to vote. (That seems to have the trade)

                    You might want to ask yourself why Salmond wanted to use the pound (I have no satisfactory answer) when he who holds the purse strings (sets interest rates etc) controls the potential of your polity.

                  • DS

                    Salmond is a gradualist. He sees further devolution as a stepping stone towards eventual independence. Cameron refused to allow Devo-Max as an option though, so he had to put the case for full independence now.

                    As for the Unionists, I think you’ll find that there is already a small sectarian party called the Scottish Unionists, so a name change back to that is unlikely. Still, Scotland basically voted much the same as England until the 1970s. After that came divergence, and hence desire for independence.

  15. cogito 16

    http://www.bbc.com/news/events/scotland-decides/results

    SCOTLAND VOTES NO

    The BBC forecasts that Scotland has voted against becoming an independent country by a projected 55% to 45%.

    Great news that the UK will remain one country!

    • Well, it also means that any Scot who complains about the Tories should be told to put a cork in it.

      They’re going to regret this vote in 10 years time. The UK is a bit of a craphole really.

      • cogito 16.1.1

        Craphole – according to you…. and who are you exactly?

      • ghostwhowalksnz 16.1.2

        Really , in what regard ?

        Most administration is devolved to Scottish Assembly or Scottish Councils.

        They have their own legal and education systems from way back.
        The NHS, policing , transport and most local affairs are done by Scots In Scotland.

        Doesnt even sound like you have even been there.

      • Lanthanide 16.1.3

        Not sure that logic really makes sense. There is, after all, a 45% chance that any random Scot would have voted for independence. And a much higher chance than that, that a Scot who complains about tories would have voted Yes.

        By your logic, even though I voted Labour at the last election, I can’t complain about the terrible things National is doing to this country?

        • ghostwhowalksnz 16.1.3.1

          The question wasnt one about this or that policies, such as what we will vote on tomorrow.
          It was yes or no for independence !

          Its nothing like what happened in Maggies day when a lot of decisions were made in London still.

          Same as winding back the clock here to pre Roger Douglas isnt going to happen

  16. Jeeves POnzi 17

    I’ll be havin a wee one for you tonite Bill. Good luck mate.

    It was a real eye opener to me to see my old cuzzies the Loyalists heading back home with their Orange sashes to encourage the NO vote- these are very same party that blindly supported Thatcher through all of her reforms- reforms that callously left Scotland out in the cold to bleed an economic death- in exchange for increased police powers against the nationalist community in the Six counties of Ulster.
    I thought- Christ! Scotland- with friends like that – who needs enemies. If ever you need to know which way is forward- watch the Loyalists and run like f%^& in the opposite direction.

    Good Luck Scotland- whichever way you choose.
    Tiocfaidh ar la!
    God Save the Queen!
    Vive la France!
    Deutschland Uber Alles!
    She’ll Be Right Mate!
    Up yours Maggie !!!

  17. Sable 18

    So far its not looking good. Seems the European portion of the evil empire will live to oppress another day. I wonder if our chances will be any better after Saturday…

    We can but hope….

  18. Rosie 19

    There’s only the Highlands to go now but they can’t save it. It’s a NO.

    Feeling gutted on behalf of the YES voters. Really saddened, Scotland had an opportunity to govern themselves and turned it down. All those hopeful young people talking about why they voted YES on the livestream will be heart broken.

    Riot’s in Glasgow?

  19. Disraeli Gladstone 20

    As someone who has a Scottish and English parent, a Welsh grandfather among the Scots and English, as someone who has lived, studied and worked in Scotland and England and as someone who regards themselves as British, I am so pleased with this result.

    Excellent stuff.

    I hope this leads to a profound dialogue about the nation’s constitution, a federal United Kingdom and devolved regional assemblies for not just the Home Nations, but also the regions within those nations.

    Yorkshire should be just as free from London as Fife or the Valleys.

    Going to have a nice glass to celebrate tonight.

  20. Pete 21

    It was always going to be a case where a large number of Scots would have been disappointed with the result, regardless of which way it went. But when 45 percent of people want out, that’s a sign that something is very wrong with how the country is governed. Maybe there can be enough reform within the current system to keep people satisfied. The very worst thing would be to tell them to suck it up and make no meaningful change at all.

  21. Belladonna 22

    So disappointing for many of us with Scottish ancestory. Let’s hope tomorrow brings us better news.

  22. Great Bear 23

    I was quite exited for Scotland to go independent (for a minute), but it wouldn’t truly change anything would it? Realising this, who really cares, in the end! I read Elizabeth was going to remain the head of state, so they weren’t really going to be independent. Its just all bullshit really- like usual!

    • RedBaronCV 23.1

      Perhaps she had better hand back Charlies “lord of the Isles” title to the real owner. Intellewctual property theft methinks

  23. Sable 24

    Alas poor Scotland, they gave into fear mongering from London and the MSM. So still part of the warmongering Brit led UK. A sad day for democracy….

    I hope we fare better tomorrow but I have my doubts…..

  24. Great Bear 25

    Sable, there is no such thing as democracy. There is ‘one’ who orchestrates world affairs and believe me he is all over the place, what the hell is he doing, even he has no fucking idea.

  25. Andrew Welsh 26

    Nice to see the “left” showing respect to the voting will from the residents of Scotland.

  26. millsy 27

    It was probably the promise of more powers and freedoms for the Scots that swayed the no vote. Now it is up to the Brits to hold up their end of the bargain.

    Gotta admit though. The prospect of an independent Scotland would have been history in the making. I remember watching the Soviet flag being hauled down on TV when I was a boy. Scotland raising thiers would have been just as milestoneish.

    • JRT 27.1

      Don’t think Scotland will ever get those powers. Suddenly Cameron doesn’t have time to do anything before the next election. Imagine he’ll be too busy after it too. Scotland I think will live to regret the No vote. They are completely powerless now.

  27. Brian 28

    That’s a shame.

  28. RedBaronCV 29

    And my heart goes out to the bloke further down our street. Clear what he thought

  29. Andrew Welsh 30

    JRT, IMO it’s unreasonable to make the assumption that the Scots will regret their decision. I note a number of commentators on The Standard blog advocating Scottish Independance from NZ. Just because the ideology from a resident of NZ doesn’t match the final decision of the Scots it doesn’t mean they are the “powerless” nation of individuals you think they are.
    By the way, I am politically aligned to the right, am married time an immigrant and don’t believe in hiding behind a psuedonum when posting on political blog sites

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