The Winston Principle

Written By: - Date published: 9:14 am, April 9th, 2015 - 84 comments
Categories: Politics, uncategorized - Tags:

Some people, Left and Right state they won’t vote for New Zealand First while Winston is its leader. Various reasons are given including not trusting him, being self obsessed (only after the baubles of office) and loyal only to himself.

My question is:

Will the National voters who feel that way, still vote for National IF it is clear they need NZF to Govern post 2017 Election? Bearing in mind that many believe he will wag the dog, and they hate that about him?

Same question for those Labour folks who feel that way about Winston Peters, and what can we take from the Northland buy-election (if anything) about Labour voters who feel that way about Winston.

I am not a Labour voter. I do not have the same fear and loathing of Winston as others.

Discuss

84 comments on “The Winston Principle ”

  1. Lanthanide 1

    “I am not a Labour voter. I do not have the same fear and loathing of Winston as others.”

    I understand you’re a Greens voter. So you should be more concerned about Winston’s past history in blocking a Labour – Greens coalition deal.

    • tracey 1.1

      Thanks for the unnecessary warning Lanth. I am confidant that Greens are able to sit outside a Labour led Government with some influence, given they had some influence once with a national Government and now we have insulation in many more homes. Fortunately having seats in Cabinet arent as important to Greens as influencing policy.

      But that isn’t the topic, is it?

      Greens are not a”Major” Party, and I am asking people about where their principle (to not vote for Winston) go when it means needing Winston for their team to govern.

      • Lanthanide 1.1.1

        Sure, my point is raising this though is that you were marking yourself as some sort of dis-interested by-stander, but didn’t give any context as to why. I’ve now provoked that context.

        I have no disagreement with your position, I just think you should have written what is in 1.1 in your post to begin with.

        • tracey 1.1.1.1

          Why? I have been provoked to write the post based on comments prior to the Northland outcome and some comments in the last couple of days. I am interested in what people say but don’t have a horse in the race. Hope you are not telling me what I should or should not write 😉

      • The Lone Haranguer 1.1.2

        I very much doubt that many voters, either Nats or Labour, would have a hatred of Peters which was greater than their affection for their own party of choice. I think they will vote where they have always voted.

        Given that Peters will be unlikely to anoint another party pre-election, I think that the question you raise is a red herring at best.

        Really, we have no idea today, of what Peters is up to, let alone looking ahead to 2017.

        • tracey 1.1.2.1

          That’s why I directed it to those who have proclaimed they could never vote for Peters. That may not mean when push comes to shove and they stand in the booth they don’t default to their favorite party, but that is part of the point of the question.

          Also, Peters has been around a long time so the notion that no one knows what he is up to at any time is ridiculous. He has a pattern as do others. Looking past personal dislikes can colour that pattern but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

  2. shorts 2

    Why would anyone vote NZ First without Winston – its a one horse party and without him seems destined to disappear

    Not sure why anyone on the left would vote for him either – except in a situation like Northland

    • tracey 2.1

      Isn’t Labour pretty conservative too? Some Labour people might prefer a conservative rightish party they feel has more heart than Nat/ACT to a Green Party they perceive according to the memes picked up by the media?

      • Lanthanide 2.1.1

        Yes, NZFirst are more conservative, but there’s also the perceived racist element that would put a lot of people off, even if some of their policies were agreeable.

        • ghostwhowalksnz 2.1.1.1

          Racist ? It was more xenophobia.

          10 years ago it was the ‘concern du jour’ when you pushed back on opponents policies. Today ‘bullying’ is becoming the weapon of choice in political pushback

          And 10 years before that , was ‘reds under the bed’ or ‘dancing cossacks’ seen as racist ? ( ie anti russian). No one would have seen it that way.

          Churchill in the election campaign in 1945, with the war hardly over said the Labour partys policies would mean the return of gestapo.

          Political exaggeration has a long history in politics

    • Shane Jones is going to take over in the middle of the next term, or so I’m told. There may be some disgruntled alternative leaders in the current NZF caucus and Stuart Nash will be also be miffed at not even being considered, but that’s looking like the way it will play out. Jones has enough profile and support to get them over the 5% at the 2020 election.

      • Ron 2.2.1

        Are you interviewing your keyboard. The only obvious way for Shane to take over would be for Shane to be on the party list at next election in a high enough position to become leader. Is that what you mean? Sounds unlikely

        Shane Jones is going to take over in the middle of the next term

        • te reo putake 2.2.1.1

          And yet that’s what’s going to happen. It’s Winston’s party; he gets to choose his own successor.

        • weka 2.2.1.2

          “The only obvious way for Shane to take over would be for Shane to be on the party list at next election in a high enough position to become leader.”

          Is that based on NZF leadership rules?

        • Stuart Munro 2.2.1.3

          As Labour found, Shane doesn’t attract broad support. Parachuting him into New Zealand First would be pretty iffy, though it’s possible Winston’s imprimatur could help. Winston has to produce something this time though, or all his soft support may be gone by 2017. The world economic outlook is pretty flat, and NZ is unlikely to outperform it – folk will be hurting.

          • Brutus Iscariot 2.2.1.3.1

            He doesn’t need to attract “broad support” – he’s not running for PM. He’s potentially the leader of a niche political party.

      • Skinny 2.2.2

        I can see Jones standing in Whangarei and finishing off the job Peters started by winning Northland. There was no sensible reason National were strong past Wellsford. That has now changed thank goodness.

        I see a policy opening that will resonate with the Northern voters that should cement NL for Peters next time and gift Jones the Whangarei seat. Have to keep that one to myself for the time being sorry folks.

        • te reo putake 2.2.2.1

          “Have to keep that one to myself for the time being sorry folks.”

          Why?

          • Lanthanide 2.2.2.1.1

            Because last time he shared “secret inside information” about Winston, it was proven to be 100% wrong within mere hours of his posting.

            This time, without saying what his ‘secret information’ is, when nothing is different 6 months from now he can pretend this little event never occurred.

            • Skinny 2.2.2.1.1.1

              Cut it out chicken little, you can hardly shoot the messenger on information provided to me by Peters crew. It obviously suited Peters to come in under the radar.

              • Well, that comment didn’t actually make any sense at all, Skinny! What are you on about?

                • Anne

                  Skinny will reveal all in due course trp. Be patient – there’s a good lad. 😛

                • Skinny

                  LA la gets the message. A quick recap for you TRP. I was told by NZF insiders Peters wasn’t going to stand in Northland. I commented about what I’d been told, It was final day of declarations. Within 2 hours Peters confirms he was standing.

                  Regarding your why question TRP.
                  All policies start with an idea, so I have approached the appropriate Labour spokesperson mooting my idea, their reaction got a positive nod & smile with sound feedback. So now on to the next party for their opinion, then the next. If it gets cross party support from the Left then the PR spin can begin, and a spanner in the works for Nact is hatched 🙂

                  • So, just to check, if any policy comes out in the next month that more than one party agrees about, we’ll know that’s down to you, skinny?

                    Mind you, if it’s that good an idea, why does it require you to contact the other parties? Why isn’t the NZLP person you contacted doing that? That’s their job, after all.

                    I only ask because it’s pretty clear from your ‘Winston standing’ anecdote that you don’t know any actual insiders in NZF. Y’know, people who actually know what’s going on. So, if it’s any good as an idea, it might be best left to the professionals.

                    Again, this all just sounds like big noting to me. But, so that you can properly claim credit when it actually happens, why don’t you email Lprent the details in confidence? He can keep it a secret until it’s public knowledge, then we can all give you the credit you’re due.

                    [lprent: I don’t tell anyone nuffing ]

                    • Skinny

                      Geez your a cynical prick, probably devoid of ideas of your own to boot by your churlish cheap pot shots.

                      You know Labour & other democratic political party’s don’t just adopt an idea and turn it into policy overnight, well other than National in a ‘buy election’ by plucking 10 bridges out of their arse.

                      “You don’t know any actual insiders in NZF. Y’know, people who actually know what’s going on. So, if it’s any good as an idea, it might be best left to the professionals”.

                      If that was true I find it rather odd myself + partner were on the guest list of some 60 – 80 people at Peters election night gig.

                      Now there’s a good lad take a seat in the corner and please think again before commenting silliness like you just have.

                    • Dude, you’re the one who admitted that his ‘insiders’ got it completely arse about face. So, excuse my cynicism.

                      By the way, your working method for getting this policy adopted isn’t a million miles away from Nationals ghost bridges. If it is as good as you reckon, take it to the LEC or your local branch and try and get it adopted there and then taken to conference. You might test the waters by running it up as a guest post here, too. You might be surprised at what a little crowd sourcing will do.

                    • Skinny

                      “Dude, you’re the one who admitted that his ‘insiders’ got it completely arse about face. So, excuse my cynicism”

                      As I’ve said previously when I was told he wasn’t standing ‘a week or so earlier’ subsequently strong calls came for him to stand, I even said it was a pity as I felt he had a good show. Given the only reason he didn’t stand the previous election was because his sister was standing for Labour in Northland, I heard he would not stand against her. Peters has been around for 40 years and played his cards close. Of course it crossed my mind he was foxing, so be it pass the message on, the only ones he was intending to fool were the Nat’s no harm unintentionally playing along ‘ if it was propaganda’ I’m sorry if a few people felt duped on here. The insider reads the posts, knows my handle on here and probably played me, we haven’t even discussed the charade.

                      Of course running it thru the LEC and onwards to the policy council (LP) however having a bit of fun thru the media along the way by lambasting National is all part and parcel of the game of politics is it not. 🙂

                      Please take the pissing contest with TRP to open mike. I am not interested in having it rehashed again in this thread – Tracey

                    • Skinny

                      Perhaps you tell TPR to get off my case, I’ll defend my honour right here when taken to task thank you very much.

                    • Skinny

                      Rodger that cobbah Iprent your integrity is not in question. Still in the discussion stage. If it has wings will fly it by you.
                      Cheers.

                    • swordfish

                      1prent: I don’t tell anyone nuffing

                      Good, because ‘If there’s one thing I hate more than a murderer, it’s a dirty, rotten, stinking, filthy Grass’.*

                      * Michael Caine: The Long Good Friday (1980).

  3. fisiani 3

    Silly post. Winston will not be around in 2017. I doubt if he will be alive given the clear but admittedly subtle clinical evidence he currently portrays. Notice how he can no longer cogently win a point of order. Can NZF exist after Winston steps down? Can it win a seat or poll 5%. Can it work with the Greens? I reckon No on all three counts.

    silly commenter. Only barely squeezed into the context of the post in second sentence but otherwise failed to address the actual post. If this starts a series of posts about your comment I will move all to Open Mike. Tracey

  4. repateet 4

    What do you reckon, NZF put Shane Jones up in Epsom and the Nats tell their mob to vote for him!

  5. Anne 5

    Problem with Winston Peters he has a habit of getting the required number of MPs to be able to form a coalition with whomsoever he pleases. In 1996 it was National. In 2005 it was Labour. The fact both govts. ended up losing at the next election was more to do with the election cycle ( 3 terms in power) than it was Peters and co. It’s likely to happen again in 2017 but this time (hopefully) at the beginning of a 3 term cycle rather than the end.

    I heard an interesting story about the young Winston. He grew up in a strong Labour family and voted Labour as a young man. But when he decided to enter politics he concluded his prospects for advancement lay with National rather than Labour so he switched sides. He was right because Muldoon was at the start of the height of his powers. In fact its well known Winston learnt his craft at the feet of Muldoon who took a liking to him – not surprising because they had backgrounds in common. Muldoon’s Mum was a Labour Party member in Mt Albert for most of her life. She only dropped out when her boy became a senior politician but legend has it she never stopped voting for Labour.

    • ghostwhowalksnz 5.1

      Check your numbers;

      “whoever he pleases” doesnt match reality.

      1996 was a clean national-NZF coalition, going with labour would have required a 3 way coalition with labour- Alliance- NZF

      In 2005 National-ACT- NZF -Dunne (60) didnt make a majority- they needed 61

      Politically you want to be the bride not just one of a couple of bridesmaids,

    • DH 5.2

      It’s funny how people keep saying Winstone Peters favours National when he’s way more to the left than the present-day Labour Party.

      NZ First policies are very socialist, far more so than Labours.

      I find it hard to trust a man who wears a suit that (probably) costs more than my car but I do find a lot of the criticism of Peters to be hypocritical and ill-founded.

      • Tracey 5.2.1

        I agrre that people are underestimating how right Lab has become. A hint was pre election preference to go with nzf not Greens. Unless it was bluff on the basis it wanted the voters to think that and if they got the numbers Lab would deal with the contradiction later?

  6. Olwyn 6

    The problem to me is that Shane Jones and Stuart Nash seem to stand for a slightly softer rural version of the current National Party. I think this because of the things they say and the kind of support they appear to have. While Winston is around he is able to keep NZF to a soft nationalist/centre right/small-to-medium business (including farming) party. With the other two, I would have to be convinced that they are not just another couple of sell-outs hooking onto a brand that is not yet exhausted.

    Our MMP would work well if parties represented clearly identifiable constituencies and coalitions were formed on that basis. But we are a small country, and parties are too easily diverted toward what is wanted by international corporations and local ticket-clippers, or publicly vilified if they resist. Winston has done better than most that area – he has survived several public thrashings, and managed to win Northland despite their machinations. His appeal lies with his perceived commitment to NZ, and his resilience in maintaining it.

    • Colonial Rawshark 6.1

      The problem to me is that Shane Jones and Stuart Nash seem to stand for a slightly softer rural version of the current National Party. I think this because of the things they say and the kind of support they appear to have.

      Regardless of actual political orientation or constituency, best of luck to the parties who take these two self-centred operators on as MPs. They will need it.

  7. Puckish Rogue 7

    I like your posts Tracey so here goes…

    Its a tricky one because past history shows Winston doesn’t play well with others so it seems to me my only real options are to:

    Swallow a dead rat and vote National and hope they get enough votes to lessen Winstons influence (lesser or two evils perhaps)

    Swallow an even bigger rat and vote Act as a counter-balance to Winston but that will end up making National weaker

    Swallow the biggest rat and vote Labour but that will bring in the Greens and may well bring in Winston anyway

    I’d have to give serious consideration to abstainign from voting which I’ve never done before

    • Skinny 7.1

      Relax buddy, Hooton and his mates will have spun up another party on the Right for you to vote for by the end of this year/begining of next.

      • b waghorn 7.1.1

        They don’t need to make a new one the nats could kill act off and accommodate crazy collin and the kid beaters lots of nzf voters could handle voting for them

        • Skinny 7.1.1.1

          No I believe their polling says they would have lost more support than worth the risk of doing a deal with the god bothered ones. Hence they never accommodated them.

      • Puckish Rogue 7.1.2

        I do like the idea of Shane Jones running NZFirst…

        • felix 7.1.2.1

          Most National Party supporters probably do. He’d make a good little poodle.

    • Tracey 7.2

      thanks for posting on the question PR.

      i wonder if the “principle” Or swallowing the dead rat from left Nats and right Labs will cancel it out as a factor?

  8. Shona 8

    Shane Jones couldn’t organize a pi** up in a Brewery. he would be the kiss of death for NZ First. Ron Mark is far more capable and appeals to their core supporters, especially the younger ones .Surprises me how many young people under 30 I know , who have voted for them.

    • felix 8.1

      Why overlook the current Deputy Leader?

    • Tracey 8.2

      Winston is, as you suggest, not just a figurehead but a tireless “worker”. if he has folks doing the hard yards would they stay and do it for Jones?

      Fascinating that the DP is not even part of the conversation. Tracy Martin just a token? And if ues, to what?

  9. felix 9

    This ‘I might vote NZF if it wasn’t for Winston’ line is National Party bullshit.

    It’s up there with ‘I might vote Greens if they would just shut up about trying to build a better world’.

    It’s nonsense. It’s coming from people on the right who want to kill NZF off before they become a real problem for National, and lefties are starting to parrot it too.

    • Tracey 9.1

      I hear it more from righties than left. Partly why I put it up. Poke the hive and see if the truth flies out. So far only PR has written from perspective of one who is put off by Winston but I wonder if he could really bring himself to abstain?

      • Anne 9.1.1

        I hear it more from righties than left.

        As I’ve said before it goes back to the 1990s and the Winebox saga. He pissed off a lot of righties and they haven’t forgiven him. He dared to take on the super-rich pricks and in the end he won. Some had to flee the country and hide in places like Switzerland. I had it on reliable authority at the time that if they returned to NZ they would be arrested by the police. Finally some sort of unofficial amnesty must have prevailed because they seem able to come and go at their pleasure now, but they keep low profiles.

        • Puckish Rogue 9.1.1.1

          It may well be that for the super-rich but for me its because he gets away with so many lies hes completely untouchable

          Remember how Huka Lodge had been sold to the chinese…its going to be sold…ooops a daisy

          Anyother politician tried that kind of carry on they’d get crucified (yes even Key) but Winston just keeps on keeping on

          Whats his latest thing, chinese buying farms? buying houses? taking up uni spots or is it now the indians turn? Does it matter, not really because its Winston

          No means no (no cheques cash only)

          • Paul 9.1.1.1.1

            I think you’ll find Key lies more regularly.
            Have you seen blips list?

            • Puckish Rogue 9.1.1.1.1.1

              Has blip done a list for Winston?

              • tracey

                Have you read BLiPs list?

                If saying something and going back on it is an issue for you, then key’s behaviour must be of interest. Yesterday you said integrity was important to you in politicians?

                I wonder why the Righties who dislike Winston so much haven’t done a BLiP style list?

      • Puckish Rogue 9.1.2

        I’m not one of these people who think you must vote because *insert reason here*, there are many varied reasons why one wouldn’t want to vote (it just encourages them ba-ding ding) or shouldn’t vote

        But I do like voting, i like the illusion that I have a little say in the direction this country goes but if what you suggested came to pass I would have to abstain from voting

        While I understand why tactical voting happens its not something I want to have to do and theres currently not many options for me to vote for (Act hasn’t been Act for a very long time anyway) so really I’d abstain and see what happens

        Plus it does help that Winston can’t be trusted so a vote for Winston is a vote for whoever offers him the most

        • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 9.1.2.1

          blah blah ..

        • felix 9.1.2.2

          I like how you make it sound like it’s complicated choosing who to vote for when you basically support everything National does and says.

          • Puckish Rogue 9.1.2.2.1

            did you read what Tracey wrote? It is a difficult question to answer

            • felix 9.1.2.2.1.1

              No its not.

              You don’t abstain.

              You go into the booth and you tick everything with a blue square next to it.

              • Puckish Rogue

                Yeah see Tracey asked a question, I answered it and you well haven’t really contributed anything

                • felix

                  Yes she asked a question because earlier you said you’d consider abstaining from voting.

                  What I’m saying is that was rubbish. You’re just running Nat lines as usual.

        • tracey 9.1.2.3

          I don’t think that believing your vote is a little say in the direction of the country is an illusion.

          • felix 9.1.2.3.1

            He says he likes voting, but then he implies that he might abstain if he can’t guarantee his desired outcome beforehand. Waaaaaah.

            It’s almost as if he isn’t really that much into voting at all.

          • Puckish Rogue 9.1.2.3.2

            I guess mean more like over a million people voted for National so if I hadn’t voted nothing would have changed

            Plus when it comes down to it its either National or Labour so really its not much of a choice anyway

  10. red-blooded 10

    Winston Peters is a blow-hard braggart and (let’s not forget) he’s been shown to be a shonky trader and liar (think back to the Serious Fraud Office investigations into his lies about political donations). He’s also a bigot.

    As for how all that might affect the chances of my voting Labour… Well, let’s put it this way: the Greens can talk up their one policy concession about housing insulation all they want; the fact is that if that’s all they’ve achieved on a tangible level after all these years in parliament, then it’s not a great record. Now, I personally wish that Clarke had gone with the Greens rather than Winston all those years ago, but I guess she saw that he was going to be hanging around for quite some time and had the potential to block future Labour governments, whereas the Greens (while also having staying power) were never likely to actively undermine a Left(ish) government by dealing with the NACTs on confidence and supply.

    Basically, I don’t see how voting Green would disempower Winston, unless there was a massive swing to the Greens and the people swinging were NZ First voter (not a likely scenario). I really hope Winston runs out of steam soon (and that’s all he is – hot wind), but if he doesn’t I see a Labour vote as the best way of moderating his power, either by making a Lab/Green government possible or )at the very least) by containing the level of power he and his could wield within a Labour-led government.

    While I would be really sad to see the greens locked out again if Labour goes with NZ1, I don’t think voting Green is my best choice.

    As for Shane Jones – this would make NZ1 even more of a political joke, making it obvious that no-one in the party except the glorious leader actually gets a real say. Still, it would be good for a laugh, I suppose…

    • tracey 10.1

      Are you saying that you would vote for Labour even if it meant Winston was their coalition partner? I think that is the upshot of your post, just clarifying?

  11. sabine 11

    i never had an issue with Winston, but then I also have never voted for National in NZ.

    if we need Winston, then we need him. That simple.

  12. Macro 12

    Various reasons are given including not trusting him, being self obsessed (only after the baubles of office) and loyal only to himself.

    I would have thought that those “qualities” comprehensively summed up most of the National MPs, I wonder how those voters on the Right who parrot the above lines can honestly vote at all?

    • tracey 12.1

      And some on the Left too.

      I was impressed by Goff and his petition of MPs on nuclear arms reduction today… but I still have more suspicion of him than i have of Winston (possibly irrationally).

      • Anne 12.1.1

        He’s pretty straight up tracey. Yes, he’s an integral part of the right faction in the Labour Party but he can be trusted to keep his word and behave in a principled manner. His motivation is way more altruistic than Winston Peters.

        • tracey 12.1.1.1

          Not so straight up about whether he is going to stand for Mayor of Auckland, dodged that one despite miraculously becoming spokesperson for Auckland issues, when Adern and Twyford seemed to have a pretty good handle on it.

          My suspicionis of his right-wing neolib-ness. Remember his email to me about the TPP?

          • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 12.1.1.1.1

            His focus now would have to be meeting with key [no pun intended] sources to provide funds for his mayoralty campaign.

            • Tracey 12.1.1.1.1.1

              BUT he came out well with the petition to reduce nuclear arsenals last week. So he is not all bad

      • Macro 12.1.2

        Yes some on the Left too! Goff is more about believing in the neo lib principle I feel. I think he truly does believe that is the way to social justice for all. As for others – one Stuart Nash springs to mind….

  13. humPrac 13

    “Various reasons are given including not trusting him, being self obsessed (only after the baubles of office) and loyal only to himself.”
    WOW, just WOW. People don’t vote for NZF because of argumentum ad hominem against Peters and no one is addressing the policies.
    http://gifrific.com/jennifer-lawrence-sarcastic-ok-thumbs-up/
    Check the gif in this link – it sums up what I’m thinking right now.

    • McFlock 13.1

      I reckon I’ve a good handle on his position – he’s an old-school tory, not a neolib – but if someone doesn’t trust him to do what he says, why do his promises/policies even matter?

      It’s not like voting for someone else because one doesn’t like Winston’s suits. If you don’t trust a politician at all, everything that they say or commit to is worthless.

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