Toxic masculinity

153 comments on “Toxic masculinity ”

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1. Sanctuary 1

   28 August 2019 at 9:04 am

   Novara media connects the dots between the climate crisis and far right populism in South America…
2. Gosman 2

   28 August 2019 at 9:08 am

   If you want to avoid these sorts of Politicians getting in to power you might want to avoid polarising the debate that allows the people on extremes to take advantage.
   • mickysavage 2.1

     28 August 2019 at 9:11 am

     I was not aware that the Standard had such a strong effect on Brazil's last election.
     • weka 2.1.1

       28 August 2019 at 9:26 am

       Lol. The left is responsible for all the bad things the right does though.
       • Gosman 2.1.1.1

         28 August 2019 at 9:56 am

         Not at all but there is always blow back. Trump was a response to some of the overreach of the Obama administration in some areas. This is why it is sometimes wise to take a slower approach to changes in some areas of politics.
         • weka 2.1.1.1.1

           28 August 2019 at 10:01 am

           Obama was hardly a radical leftie. Trump is the result of some long, complex social and political dynamics in the US, including a substantial history of racism. Unless you are arguing that Bernie Sanders run for pres triggered Trump voters, I can't see how this has much to do with the actual left.
         • JohnP 2.1.1.1.2

           28 August 2019 at 10:02 am

           Why is it always the left that causes 'blow back', when the right are a fire tornado literally burning the planet for their own enrichment and amusement?
           • weka 2.1.1.1.2.1

             28 August 2019 at 10:05 am

             This ^
             • JohnP …

               28 August 2019 at 10:11 am

               Cheers Weka.

               Blow back for what as well? It's not like Bolsanaro's saying;

               "Damn, I hate it when the left try to make the planet liveable for all humans, guess I'm just gonna burn down all this rainforest and convert the land into dairy farming for corporate conglomerates and drive off or slaughter the indigenous people by sending the army in to 'combat the fires'."

               And hell, if you're of a view that Macron is 'left' then you're already pretty far to the right.
               • weka …

                 28 August 2019 at 10:19 am

                 True. I suspect Gosman was just waving his hand vaguely in the air at some mythical left that has been trying to make everyone socialist or communist and this is why Bolsonaro and Trump are the way they are, it's inevitable. It's a really weird position to take.
                 • KJT …

                   28 August 2019 at 10:25 am

                   It would be good if Gosman's discourse advanced past "Socialism bad, unregulated capitalism, free market good".
                   • weka …

                     28 August 2019 at 10:34 am

                     good, and a miracle.
                   • Sacha …

                     28 August 2019 at 2:29 pm

                     Forever courting the Act vote.
         • KJT 2.1.1.1.3

           28 August 2019 at 10:21 am

           Notably Trump promised "socialist" things, such as tariffs to keep jobs.

           For the people that the US corporate kleptocracy had neglected.
           • Gosman 2.1.1.1.3.1

             28 August 2019 at 10:37 am

             Tariffs are a tax on consumers. He is basically subsidising US businesses by taxing people. The poor are the ones that usually suffer disproportionately as a result.
             • KJT …

               28 August 2019 at 10:44 am

               Tariffs are a protection for jobs. Unfortunately for US workers there are no jobs left to protect, so in this case you are correct, Trump's tariffs are simply acting as a tax on consumers. However the point, which you haven't addressed, remains. Trump was promising to make workers lives better, to get elected.

               I take it now you will be logically consistant, and oppose GST, which substitutes taxes on wealthy income earners, for taxes on poor consumers.
               • Gosman …

                 28 August 2019 at 10:52 am

                 No Tariffs are a tax on consumers and a subsidy to inefficient producers.
                 • KJT …

                   28 August 2019 at 12:10 pm

                   Tariffs and subsidies, are how we built our dairy industry.

                   You going to tell them they are "inefficient producers".
                   • Shadrach …

                     28 August 2019 at 2:45 pm

                     Built, past tense. And we were able to sell whatever we produced to a captive market (the UK and her Commonwealth). Removing those tariffs and subsidies, and having to compete in the big bad world made our dairy industry into a world leader.
                   • KJT …

                     28 August 2019 at 5:05 pm

                     Wondered when the other parrot would pop up.

                     You and Gosman take turns?
         • mpledger 2.1.1.1.4

           28 August 2019 at 2:53 pm

           Obama was neutered by the Senate and Congress being in Republican hands. "Over-reach" is just a Republican meme to get away with trashing the environment, the education system, women's rights over their own body, immigrant's lives and trying (and trying but not succeeding) to trash universal health insurance.
     • Gosman 2.1.2

       28 August 2019 at 9:54 am

       I am meaning on a general basis not just The Standard.
   • Sanctuary 2.2

     28 August 2019 at 9:18 am

     Mirror, meet Gosman.
     • Gosman 2.2.1

       28 August 2019 at 9:58 am

       My views are hardly extreme. The fact you think they are illustrates how debate becomes far more polarised than it is and encourages clumping together of people on the extremes.
       • KJT 2.2.1.1

         28 August 2019 at 9:59 am

         You think?
       • Stuart Munro. 2.2.1.2

         28 August 2019 at 12:20 pm

         You're an Actoid – less than 0.5% support – outside three standard deviations, your views are indeed on the extreme right.
   • KJT 2.3

     28 August 2019 at 9:39 am

     You may want to avoid using sanctions, and US power, to replace moderate socialists with right wing extremists that could never win a fair democratic election, you mean.
     • Gosman 2.3.1

       28 August 2019 at 9:59 am

       Where are moderate socialists being attempted to be replaced via sanctions?
       • KJT 2.3.1.1

         28 August 2019 at 10:00 am

         Venezuela.
         • Gosman 2.3.1.1.1

           28 August 2019 at 10:39 am

           The Chavistas are moderate Socialists are they? I would hate to see your version of full blown Socialists then.
           • KJT 2.3.1.1.1.1

             28 August 2019 at 10:47 am

             By any measure of "socialist" redistribution, Venezuela is less "socialist" than the US Democrats. Unless you regard such things as taxes for cheap universal education, "extreme socialist".
             It is part of the downfall of Venezuela is they didn’t break the power of the previous corrupt ruling class. If they were really an extremist Government they would have put the opposition in jail, like Bolsanaro has.
             But we already know you would consider NZ Governments from post WW2 to 1984, “extreme socialist”.
             • Gosman …

               28 August 2019 at 10:51 am

               Not true. The major driver of the Venezuelan economy (making up the vast majority of export earnings) is 100% controlled by the State. The state attempts to control both the price and distribution of goods and services within Venezuela. That is not something the US does at any major level.
       • aom 2.3.1.2

         28 August 2019 at 10:20 am

         In the case of Brazil, sanctions weren't necessary as the election was skewed with the dodgy conviction and imprisonment of the most popular candidate. Without doubt, US enforced sanctions would have been the next step if Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva had been elected again.

         While at it, what do you mean by Obama's over-reach Gossman? Is it something to do with trying to reach over the corruptive influence of the recently departed Koch who didn't believe the most people in the US should have some protections around their healthcare, personal dignity and basic human rights was it?
   • cleangreen 2.4

     28 August 2019 at 10:33 am

     Wakey wakey Gosman.

     https://www.co2.earth

     Atmospheric CO2
     July 2019
     411.77
     parts per million (ppm)
     Mauna Loa Observatory, Hawaii (NOAA)
     Preliminary data released August 5, 2019
     Before that the last three years were;
     June 2018 410.79
     June 2017 408.81
     June 2016 406.81

     We are running out of oxygen now.
     • Gosman 2.4.1

       28 August 2019 at 10:40 am

       I'll look to stock up on scuba tanks then…
     • Dukeofurl 2.4.2

       28 August 2019 at 10:43 am

       " running out of oxygen now" ROFL

       Those are parts per million. Do you know what that means

       Any way Nitrogen contenet is 3x the oxygen and we do OK.

       Right now your breath has far more CO2 than the air at Mauna kea at 4-5 parts per 100 . ( not million)
       Gasping are you ? LOL
       • cleangreen 2.4.2.1

         28 August 2019 at 11:43 am

         Typical rubbish again Dukeofoul .

         Nitrogen rich air wont help you as Nitrogen rich air will mix with other contaminents by the process called 'substrutin reaction' and the air will become posonious to breath,by then.

         Best you school up on 'general chemistry' by PW Atkins, you show ignorance to the gravity of what toxity happens when mixing elements or go Gosmans way, "get scuba gear.".
         • Dukeofurl 2.4.2.1.1

           28 August 2019 at 2:41 pm

           An 8 yr old knows more about oxygen in the air than you do. The amounts you mention on Mauna Kea are in no way a problem for breathing.

           I didnt think there were many around who could be as ignorant as Trump, ( especially when the obvious is pointed out to him) but we can see them amoung us .

           Each breath uses about 5% of the oxygen so a second breath of the same air is no problem. CO2 is of course largely harmless in the air for breathing , its the O2 that is vital
       • Robert Guyton 2.4.2.2

         28 August 2019 at 1:29 pm

         "Gasping are you ? LOL"

         You would be, if you had to breathe it back in again.
         • Dukeofurl 2.4.2.2.1

           28 August 2019 at 2:44 pm

           Breathing even CO2 at 5% isnt an issue ( 50,000 parts per mill) , the plants love it at that level , thats why is pumped into greenhouses.
           • Robert Guyton 2.4.2.2.1.1

             28 August 2019 at 6:15 pm

             It is if you keep breathing the same lung-full; how long do you reckon it would take, Duke, before you passed out?
     • lprent 2.4.3

       28 August 2019 at 3:14 pm

       We are running out of oxygen now.

       Perhaps you should read some actual information rather than simply stupidly inferring it from the measurements of completely different gas. Yes, oxygen levels are declining. Only problem is that in recent epochs, you need about a million years to notice that it has happened.

       The new estimates suggest that atmospheric oxygen levels have fallen by 0.7 percent over the past 800,000 years. The scientists concluded that oxygen sinks — processes that removed oxygen from the air — were about 1.7 percent larger than oxygen sources during this time.

       Although a drop in atmospheric oxygen levels might sound alarming, the decrease the researchers found “is trivial in regard to ecosystems,” Stolper told Live Science. “To put it in perspective, the pressure in the atmosphere declines with elevation. A 0.7 percent decline in the atmospheric pressure of oxygen occurs at about 100 meters (330 feet) above sea level — that is, about the 30th floor of a tall building.”

       https://www.livescience.com/56219-earth-atmospheric-oxygen-levels-declining.html
       • Dukeofurl 2.4.3.1

         28 August 2019 at 3:31 pm

         Thanks for that .

         I used to think that Twitter and Facebook was the the place for stuff that was too silly for words
3. vto 3

   28 August 2019 at 9:22 am

   You need to substantiate the 'toxic masculinity' accusation. Wtf are you talking about with that polarising, inflammatory and frankly bollocks term?

   Why do you think it has anything to do with testosterone? Where is any evidence?

   Do you realise there is a massively growing problem with young female violence and drinking? Have you seen what is going on right now with even younger teen females and how they are outstripping males by a country mile in the aggro stakes? Where is that coming from? The estrogen? You are probably not even aware. Old coot (there you go, a bit of offensiveness thrown back in kind. Lovely isn't it).
   • mickysavage 3.1

     28 August 2019 at 9:29 am

     How would you describe Bolsonaro's behaviour? I am surprised this is at all a contentious description.
     • vto 3.1.1

       28 August 2019 at 9:37 am

       The term 'toxic masculinity' should be reserved for use by left-wing extremist arseholes.

       Bolsonaro's behaviour could be described as immature, child-like, rude crude, bolshie, arrogant, ignorant, all sorts of things…

       where those traits come from I don't know, but assuming they come from masculinity is…. …. ….. offensive, among many other things … …

       (apologies for the old coot remark – withdrawn)
       • mickysavage 3.1.1.1

         28 August 2019 at 9:50 am

         His actions are toxic to the environment and are a rather overt display of his masculinity I would have thought.
         • JohnP 3.1.1.1.1

           28 August 2019 at 10:09 am

           If you fancy a good hearty laugh at a fascist, there's a video doing the rounds of Bolsanaro challenging some Army guy to 20 push ups and then absolutely flaking out on his when he has to do them.
           • Wensleydale 3.1.1.1.1.1

             28 August 2019 at 2:10 pm

             Like Trump, Bolsanaro at his core is a coward. He's all belligerent bluster and fabricated bravado. The fact he's prepared to let the Amazon burn and refuse Macron's offer of funding due to his wounded ego, speaks volumes. "The world can ruddy well burn until that dirty Frenchman says he's sorry!" This is the sort of man who, when confronted by a genuine threat, would probably cry like a baby and soil himself. He is weak, and feeble, and an embarrassment to Brazil.
         • df 3.1.1.1.2

           29 August 2019 at 10:59 pm

           Comical. By that logic Thatcher = toxic femininity. Crusher Collins = toxic femininity.
       • KJT 3.1.1.2

         28 August 2019 at 9:56 am

         https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/08/26/bolsonaros-misogynistic-attack-brigitte-macron-offers-glimpse-psyche-idiotic-baby

         The psychology of adults, whose wealth has allowed them to escape any consequences for their actions, for their entire lives, combined with the natural selfishness of a baby.

         One of the best arguments for 100% inheritance taxes on millionaires.
         • Pat 3.1.1.2.1

           28 August 2019 at 10:09 am

           "One of the best arguments for 100% inheritance taxes on millionaires."

           and one of the key reasons why they are where and who they are
     • marty mars 3.1.2

       28 August 2019 at 9:37 am

       It is a mild description imo – someone else has an agenda methinks.
       • KJT 3.1.2.1

         28 August 2019 at 9:58 am

         Can't see how "toxic masculinity" can be contentious, for masculine individuals who haven't got past baby hood.
   • MickeyBoyle 3.2

     28 August 2019 at 10:57 am

     I agree. With yesterday's suicide statistics and the majority of them being young men. Can we please avoid the use of the term toxic masculinity and the context that that term endears in some men. Lets call this Bolsonaro out for what he actually is, a environmental terrorist and an idiotic twat at that.
   • mpledger 3.3

     28 August 2019 at 2:59 pm

     Substantiate please. “Massively growing problem” sounds way overblown.
4. Ad 4

   28 August 2019 at 9:34 am

   +100 Mickey
5. weka 5

   28 August 2019 at 9:57 am

   Not a fan of the term toxic masculinity, but this whole extreme patriarchy thing is feeling very end game.

   Any reason that Macron shouldn't just apologise and move on to helping stop the fires? Or is he going to do the macho death dance too?
   • Sabine 5.1

     28 August 2019 at 10:34 am

     why should someone offer excuses for what is the truth?

     Or to put it mildly, should the world just roll over and let these guys, Bolsanaro, Trump, etc just walk over them of fear that they might offend?

     Fact is Bolsanaro is not gonna do anything about the forest burning. This is one of his campaign promises and by gosh and golly he will uphold it. Remove the forest to make way for ranching, soy growing, 'plant meat' growing, etc.

     We got to stop looking at what they say to each other and start looking at what they do.

     The orange one insulting Ted Cruz women (after all she is 'old' too), Bolsonaro insulting Macrons wife (who is much older them him) while both of these man parade around with a trophy wife on their arms is literally just that – toxic masculinity.

     Both running on a platform that vilifies people other then them, other – gay, other – trans, other – women needing / wanting an abortion, other – women not married having sex, other – not of the preferred religion, other – indigenous, other – black/brown/red/yellow anything not white………-toxic humanity.

     Both running on a platform to de-regulate, to escalate our environmental issues, to disenfranchise those that have some sort of 'treaty' rights all while telling the poor masses the reason they are poor is the 'other'. So vote for me, As i will take away all the others and never mind me over there selling the countries resources, wealth, and even environmental health of the planet. At least ya got to be against 'others' that never harmed you in hte first place and maybe maybe a slice of that pie is gonna fall on you and you don't even have to share it. Lol.

     So frankly no, excusing is not gonna work with that type of man, and fwiw, Macron is a shitheel all by himself, see how 'his' police force treat people demonstrating for a better life.
     • weka 5.1.1

       28 August 2019 at 11:12 am

       It's not about rolling over, it's about playing the game smarter. If Bolsonaro is puffing his chest over an insult, then apologise and see what his next excuse is. Apologising only diminishes power if you are reliant on macho power in the first place.

       If Macron puffs his chest back, what good will this do about the fires? Macron being macho might help with the global politics, but I think the point is we need better strategies, because the boys being boys is about to kill us.
       • Sabine 5.1.1.1

         28 August 2019 at 11:23 am

         If the orange shitshow in the US has shown us anything it is the fact that these guys don't have any shame. So it is pointless to ask that question : At long last have you got not shame? Answer, a hearty 'NO".

         In the meantime lets discuss how the insulted should be polite to the insulter in hope the guy changes his tune. Good grief.
         • weka 5.1.1.1.1

           28 August 2019 at 11:31 am

           you're still not getting it. It's not about some nice hope that Bolsonaro will change, and it's not about being nice to him, it's about deflecting his derail and taking charge of the narrative again.
           • Sabine 5.1.1.1.1.1

             28 August 2019 at 2:05 pm

             You don't get it. They don't care. Once you understand that you can change course, until you do you get to be 'hopeful', 'polite', and ineffective all the while they laugh on their way to the bank.

             you want to deflect? Don't talk about this type of bullshit at all. The orange shitshow twitters and calls women nasty or dogs or or or or? Don't give a shit. The bresilian dude does the same? Dont' give a shit. Same for all the others that fill the airwaves with their petulance and their pettiness and their fakeness in order to cover up the misery they create for actual human beings.

             But do call them out every single time they try to burn the world down thinking it will just be us paying that price.

             doing the same thing over and over again hoping to get a different result is insanity.

             Good grief.
   • mickysavage 5.2

     28 August 2019 at 1:14 pm

     If I was Macron I would apologise. I would say …

     " I am very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very sorry I hurt your feelings …"
   • Wensleydale 5.3

     28 August 2019 at 2:59 pm

     Sure, apologise, but I believe Bolsonaro will take the money and then do exactly nothing with it. Except perhaps crow about how he got $20 million from those stupid Europeans after forcing the French President to apologise for something Bolsonaro started.

     If I were Macron I'd swallow my pride and try to be the bigger person. But I wouldn't trust that swivel-eyed Brazilian lunatic any more than I'd trust Trump. He's cut from the same cloth as Rodrigo Duterte.
     • phillip ure 5.3.1

       28 August 2019 at 5:22 pm

       one of the disturbing things about duterte,,

       is that he enjoys about 85% support domestically..
     • weka 5.3.2

       28 August 2019 at 5:27 pm

       I think so. An apology is to undercut the power move by Bolsonaro. I'm not suggesting that other countries take a compliant stance in terms of goals or basic relationship.
6. New view 6

   28 August 2019 at 10:05 am

   It does seem obscene that in our world such morons can wield so much power over areas that affect everything and everyone. Subjecting their own people to their ideas of wealth and prosperity is one thing but to happily devastate the natural resources needed to keep the planet functioning well enough to sustain its whole population Is another. Whether it be in the US Russia China or anywhere else we appear powerless to prevent it happening. There’s no doubt we are our own worst enemies.
   • Sabine 6.1

     28 August 2019 at 2:06 pm

     we get what we vote for.

     people voted for this shitshow. they.voted.for.it. And they knew they did.
     • Wensleydale 6.1.1

       28 August 2019 at 3:05 pm

       Sometimes people need to learn things the hard way. American farmers are currently feeling buyer's remorse over having voted for Trump. They're fine with Mexicans getting a bit of stick, but when Trump's lunacy starts to hurt them… not so much. I suspect it won't be long before Brazilians realise Bolsonaro doesn't give a toss about the average citizen and is simply out for himself. Hopefully, the Amazon won't have burned down by then.
7. KJT 7

   28 August 2019 at 10:08 am

   The USA is starving and impoverishing Venezuela, and talking about invasion, for the simple crime of electing a Government they do not like.

   Whereas the undemocratic Government they installed in Brazil, is busily trying to ensure the end of human civilisation…..
8. Rapunzel 8

   28 August 2019 at 10:22 am

   I'm not sure if I noticed if but were/are the conversations on radical feminists as touchy as this "toxic male" one has quickly turned. Both can probably be termed extremes but the effects of the impact of the few on the many is where the damage is caused.

   Most or many NZ families have moved on from that through the necessities of everyday life for the majority, from where I sit the specific role of a "male" in that has changed quite a lot with a change too of generations having the sort of impact now that disappeared with the "nuclear family" phase.

   Working to provide for a family and housing them is harder and often all the roles are shared with two incomes needed in a landscape where I see men, women and grandparents (or an even wider version of that) stepping up to do whatever needs to be done. Everyone is better for it, a toxic approach leads to loneliness and unhealthy outcomes.
9. KJT 9

   28 August 2019 at 10:22 am

   http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2019/08/save-ship.html
10. Koff 10

    28 August 2019 at 10:46 am

    Toxic masculinity, American version, is about to be balanced somewhat by the arrival of Hurricane Greta (Thunberg) who has been steadily blown across the North Atlantic the last two weeks, and is just about to dock in Manhattan in time for the climate change meeting in September and international climate change activism. There has been quite a lot of sniping from the right about the value of Greta's 'non emissions' trip to the U.S., mainly because the crew of the yacht now change hands and fly in and out of New York. Don't think Greta is phased by it. her Asperger's just keeps her mind steady on the world's warming and the need to do something about it asap.

    https://www.windy.com/greta-thunberg?50.364,-4.170,5,i:pressure
    • cleangreen 10.1

      28 August 2019 at 11:53 am

      Greta is a godess and a great human being.
      • Dukeofurl 10.1.1

        28 August 2019 at 3:28 pm

        Isnt that what Fashion Week is for ?
11. Agora 11

    28 August 2019 at 10:52 am

    Macron should send in the army, a la Napoleon..
    • Siobhan 11.1

      28 August 2019 at 11:26 am

      Such a shame the Amazon isn't located in Venezuela, pretty sure the Liberal world leaders and their media patsies could all agree on invading the country under the guise of 'fire control'…..
12. Poission 12

    28 August 2019 at 11:03 am

    As the Amazon burns and the world looks on aghast while the planet’s lungs go up in flames responsible leaders are doing what they should be doing,

    As the planets lungs part (postulated by Macron) is essentially twaddle,would it be the role of responsible commentators to say so?

    http://www.yadvindermalhi.org/blog/does-the-amazon-provide-20-of-our-oxygen

    https://twitter.com/ShellenbergerMD/status/1165864759788392449
    • KJT 12.1

      28 August 2019 at 11:11 am

      I think I will be listening to NASA scientists figures, at least until Trump nobbles them, rather than a business journalists interpretation.
      • Poission 12.1.1

        28 August 2019 at 11:23 am

        which one of nasa scientists is suggesting that the amazon has a different mode of respiration from photsynthesis?
        • cleangreen 12.1.1.1

          28 August 2019 at 12:08 pm

          Only one Professor of Ecosystem Science views among a mryad of very many other views.

          So it is not to be used as gold standard as many varables still are there today to confirm that “No exact science exsists”
          • Poission 12.1.1.1.1

            28 August 2019 at 12:23 pm

            If you have a new hypothesis on photorespiration please be ready to share.
        • Robert Guyton 12.1.1.2

          28 August 2019 at 1:15 pm

          "which one of nasa scientists is suggesting that the amazon has a different mode of respiration from photsynthesis?"

          What do you mean, Poission?
          • Poission 12.1.1.2.1

            28 August 2019 at 1:37 pm

            read KJT comment
            • Robert Guyton 12.1.1.2.1.1

              28 August 2019 at 1:53 pm

              Done. Now, what do you mean?
              • Poission …

                28 August 2019 at 1:56 pm

                As the planets lungs part (postulated by Macron) is essentially twaddle,would it be the role of responsible commentators to say so?

                see above ie initial comment
      • Shadrach 12.1.2

        28 August 2019 at 2:51 pm

        I think I'll be looking into the claims of that business journalist, rather than blindly believing what Madonna and Leonardo DiCaprio claim.
        • Incognito 12.1.2.1

          28 August 2019 at 2:57 pm

          He’s one academic, and like lawyers, I can provide you with another one that will give you a counterview.
          • Poission 12.1.2.1.1

            28 August 2019 at 3:07 pm

            The O2 problem is the textbook ie the scientific consensus, in the absence of an alternative hypothesis it is either metaphysics ie unscientific twaddle, or bullshit.
            • Incognito 12.1.2.1.1.1

              28 August 2019 at 3:15 pm

              Sure, but that quote by one of the wisest men ever clearly demonstrates that everything is BS and that one should simply pick the source that is most suited to one’s argument. It was directed at Shadrach for edification.
              • Shadrach …

                28 August 2019 at 3:18 pm

                And I agree – that's exactly what people tend to do. It was certainly KJT's reaction.
                • Incognito …

                  28 August 2019 at 3:25 pm

                  And you are above that?
                  • Shadrach …

                    28 August 2019 at 3:34 pm

                    No-one is above that.
                    • Incognito …

                      28 August 2019 at 4:10 pm

                      Gravity pulls all of us down to Earth. Some of us, however, try to fly and soar high in the sky.

                      Do you see yourself as a bottom crawler, a tree monkey, or an Eagle?
                    • Shadrach …

                      28 August 2019 at 4:38 pm

                      We all suffer from some form of confirmation bias. Some recognise it, and therefore try to push past it. Others maintain a lofty disinterest in anything that challenges their beliefs.
                    • KJT …

                      28 August 2019 at 5:08 pm

                      And others simply parrot whatever their right wing "reckons" tell them.
                    • Shadrach …

                      28 August 2019 at 6:01 pm

                      Gee you'll need to tell me who these right wing "reckons" are so I can watch out for them.
                    • Drowsy M. Kram …

                      28 August 2019 at 11:23 pm

                      Fair warning – expect to see many more rwnj ‘reckons’ in this vein. After all, what have they got to lose?

                      Quite relevant to the “toxic masculinity” topic of the post too.

                      "How do you measure anthropogenic carbon dioxide? Get Greta to sniff it?"
                    • Shadrach …

                      29 August 2019 at 8:53 am

                      "How do you measure anthropogenic carbon dioxide? Get Greta to sniff it?"

                      That is incredibly cruel. Greta is a young woman being exploited by all sorts of people. Her fan base is primarily children, too young to question the bs they are being asked to swallow.
                    • Drowsy M. Kram …

                      29 August 2019 at 12:47 pm

                      Just curious, Shadrach, can you provide a few objective examples of the "bs" that Thunberg's fan base is "being asked to swallow"?

                      Maybe Thunberg is being exploited, but she seems to know her own 16 year-old mind. IMHO she is genuinely well-intentioned – I cannot say the same for many of her detractors.

                      "Thunberg is known for her blunt, matter-of-fact speaking manner, both in public and to political leaders and assemblies, in which she urges immediate action to address what she describes as the "climate crisis". At home, Thunberg persuaded her parents to adopt several lifestyle choices to reduce their own carbon footprint, including giving up air travel and not eating meat."
                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greta_Thunberg
                    • Shadrach …

                      29 August 2019 at 2:50 pm

                      "…but she seems to know her own 16 year-old mind. "

                      She's 16! I wouldn't trust a 16 year old to know much about anything.
                    • Incognito []

                      29 August 2019 at 3:06 pm

                      Yeah, we all know that life starts at 40.
                    • Drowsy M. Kram …

                      29 August 2019 at 11:51 pm

                      Some well-known individuals were/are wise and/or influential beyond their years.

                      Getting the feeling that Shadrach would give Thunberg's message short shrift regardless of the age or background of the messenger.

                      "You know you're on the right side of history when you're standing shoulder-to-shoulder with James Hansen, Noam Chomsky, Greta Thunberg, David Attenborough, and Berta Cáceres."

                      https://sea.mashable.com/science/5827/greta-thunberg-unfazed-by-stormy-seas

                      http://www.thestandard.org.nz/young-people-and-climate-change/
                    • Shadrach …

                      30 August 2019 at 11:27 am

                      "Some well-known individuals were/are wise and/or influential beyond their years."

                      Oh sure. But Greta is not exceptional. She is being manipulated.
                    • Drowsy M. Kram …

                      30 August 2019 at 11:46 am

                      Thunberg “is being manipulated“, in you're (humble?) opinion.

                      However, "You're one commenter, and like lawyers, I can provide you with another one that will give you a counterview."

                      Thunberg’s more exceptional than Shadrach, and indeed more inspirational than the whole National party line-up put together, IMHO.
                    • Shadrach …

                      30 August 2019 at 4:42 pm

                      "Thunberg’s more exceptional than Shadrach, "

                      You don't know me. But then that kind of leap of illogic is why you'd be sucked in by a manipulated 16 year olds rhetoric.
                    • Drowsy M. Kram …

                      30 August 2019 at 8:22 pm

                      I don't know Thunberg either, but read and listen to her messages, just as I read what you write here.

                      If you disagree with my evaluation of your relative merits, then that's fine – it's only my opinion, just as the idea that Thunberg is being manipulated is yours, and it’s doubtful there’s much we would agree on anyway.
                    • Shadrach …

                      30 August 2019 at 9:54 pm

                      "but read and listen to her messages…"

                      "just as the idea that Thunberg is being manipulated is yours,"

                      Greta was 8 when she first formed her views on climate change. Eight.

                      When she was 13, her mother (exploiter #1) was stupid enough to allow her compromise her singing career by letting Great persuade her to stop flying.

                      Her mother 'orchestrated' the 'school strike for climate' with Ingmar Rentzhog (exploiter #2), despite claiming she 'stumbled' across the campaign.

                      I could go on, but you can find all of this yourself.
                    • Drowsy M. Kram …

                      30 August 2019 at 9:59 pm

                      I could, but why bother when I have your evidence-free ‘reckons’?

                      Mind you, other reckons are available – who to believe?

                      http://www.thestandard.org.nz/we-are-sailing/#comment-1651040
                    • Shadrach …

                      30 August 2019 at 10:17 pm

                      From somewhere near your link:

                      " From what I have read it took quite some persuasion on Greta's part to convince her parents that her concerns about climate change really did matter."

                      Nope. They were persuaded by a 13 year old. Mind you, mum's done ok with her book and all.
                    • Drowsy M. Kram …

                      30 August 2019 at 10:23 pm

                      We can probably agree that Thunberg is a source of inspiration to millions, and has elicited derisive comments from many others.

                      At age 16, she has already had more influence on global events than you or I will have in our entire lifetimes – what a wonderful world!
                    • Shadrach …

                      30 August 2019 at 11:23 pm

                      "At age 16, she has already had more influence on global events than you or I will have in our entire lifetimes – what a wonderful world! "

                      She has achieved nothing. Zero. Nada.

                      Ooops…she persuaded her mother to stop flying and write a book that made her some coin.
                    • Incognito []

                      31 August 2019 at 11:30 am

                      She has achieved nothing. Zero. Nada.

                      Indeed, who is she? Is she one of the Kardashians?

                      Why is a whole thread devoted to a person who “has achieved nothing”? A nobody?

                      Are you talking about Robert’s “fire-breathing dragon that lives in his garage”? https://thestandard.org.nz/weekend-social-31-8-19/#comment-1651113 Robert, surely that would be your shed, right?

                      I think this easily passes the test of willy-waving, much ado about nothing. How appropriate and pertinent under a post on Toxic masculinity.
                    • Drowsy M. Kram …

                      30 August 2019 at 11:36 pm

                      "She [Thunberg] has achieved nothing. Zero. Nada." – Shadrach

                      That places you firmly in the camp of those who are determined to offer only derisive comments. Can you articulate why she grates on you to the extent that you must persist with these bilious put-downs?

                      Do you think youngsters should be encouraged to follow their dreams? To have the courage of their convictions? To stand up and be counted? Or are you more a "seen and not heard" kinda guy?

                      Can hardly wait for your next put-down of 16-year-old Greta; really speaks to your ‘character’.
                    • Shadrach …

                      31 August 2019 at 10:12 am

                      "Can you articulate why she grates on you to the extent that you must persist with these bilious put-downs?"

                      She doesn't. The people around her exploiting her do.

                      "Do you think youngsters should be encouraged to follow their dreams? To have the courage of their convictions? To stand up and be counted?"

                      Yes. And those convictions should be challenged, particularly if they are calling on others to follow with them.

                      "Can hardly wait for your next put-down of 16-year-old Greta; really speaks to your ‘character’."

                      It was you who raised her achievements. I'm putting those in perspective. Greta is 16. She is being exploited by a number of adults around her (including parents and environmentalists) to sell a message from which they benefit financially. If she was an adult selling snake oil for gain (like Al Gore) I'd take a different approach. She is a child, and those around her need to be called out.
                    • Drowsy M. Kram …

                      31 August 2019 at 12:10 pm

                      Shadrach – I raised the fact that Thunberg is a source of inspiration to millions, and that her statements and actions have and are influencing global events.

                      Your (quoted) comment (@11:23 pm) addressed 16-year-old Greta's achievements, which were (in your opinion, from your perspective) "nothing. Zero. Nada."

                      I truly don't understand your need to belittle Thunberg's achievements, let alone (as Incognito noted) on a post entitled "Toxic Masculinity". Maybe you don't understand it either – I'll leave you to your seething.
                    • Shadrach …

                      31 August 2019 at 6:29 pm

                      "Why is a whole thread devoted to a person who “has achieved nothing”? "

                      Ask the author of the post.
                    • Incognito []

                      31 August 2019 at 8:32 pm

                      I used the word “thread”. If I had meant the OP, I would have said so. NB the OP is not about Greta Thunberg.

                      This “thread” in which you have commented numerous times, about a nobody.

                      The question was clear and clearly addressed to you but you are evasive and becoming more and more troll-like IMHO.
                    • Shadrach …

                      31 August 2019 at 6:31 pm

                      "I raised the fact that Thunberg is a source of inspiration to millions…"

                      …and I responded by saying she'd actually achieved nothing.

                      "I truly don't understand your need to belittle Thunberg's achievements…"

                      I'm not. There aren't any. She is a child, being exploited by money and attention grabbing adults.
                    • Drowsy M. Kram …

                      31 August 2019 at 7:14 pm

                      Shadrach, you stated (@11:23 pm, 30 August 2019):

                      "She [Greta] has achieved nothing. Zero. Nada."

                      Now, @6:31 pm, you've just stated that you're not belittling Greta's achievements. A bizzare claim, given that your comment (quoted above) is a succinct exemplar of belittling behaviour.

                      belittle. To belittle means to put down, or to make another person feel as though they aren't important. Saying mean things about another person literally makes them feel "little." To belittle someone is a cruel way of making someone else [Greta] seem less important than yourself [Shadrach].

                      Ah, now I understand. Shadrach has already commented on 16-year-old Greta ten times on this post alone.

                      "I wouldn't trust a 16 year old to know much about anything."

                      "Greta is not exceptional. She is being manipulated."

                      "sucked in by a manipulated 16 year olds rhetoric"

                      "She has achieved nothing. Zero. Nada."

                      "She is being exploited by a number of adults"

                      "She is a child"

                      "She is a child, being exploited by money and attention grabbing adults."

                      I see only one ‘child’ here, Shadrach. Cheer up, in time Thunberg may come to know who you are.
                    • Shadrach …

                      31 August 2019 at 7:23 pm

                      Are you seriously suggesting that claiming someone is being exploited is 'belittling' that person? She's 16! She was being exploited from the time she was 13, from what I can see. I actually feel sorry for her. I despise those around her using her their won personal gain.
                    • Drowsy M. Kram …

                      31 August 2019 at 7:36 pm

                      Don't know how I could make my comment any clearer – I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're suffering from a comprehension deficit. Actually beginning to feel sorry for you, tbh.

                      Shadrach, you stated (@11:23 pm, 30 August 2019):

                      "She [Greta] has achieved nothing. Zero. Nada."

                      Now, @6:31 pm, you've just stated that you're not belittling Greta's achievements. A bizzare claim, given that your comment (quoted above) is a succinct exemplar of belittling behaviour.

                      belittle. To belittle means to put down, or to make another person feel as though they aren't important. Saying mean things about another person literally makes them feel "little." To belittle someone is a cruel way of making someone else [Greta] seem less important than yourself [Shadrach].
                    • Shadrach …

                      2 September 2019 at 4:59 pm

                      You're trying desperately to convince yourself I don't like Greta. You're wasting your time. And conceding the discussion.
                    • Shadrach …

                      2 September 2019 at 5:06 pm

                      "This “thread” in which you have commented numerous times, about a nobody."

                      I'm not sure if you're being stupid or just trolling.

                      This is a post abut climate change. My first comment was https://thestandard.org.nz/toxic-masculinity/#comment-1650106 and didn't even mention Greta. I made a comment about Greta in response to this https://thestandard.org.nz/toxic-masculinity/#comment-1650408.

                      The remainder of my comments about Greta have been answers to other peoples post.

                      I'm getting the feeling you're trolling me. Now while I'm flattered, it's kind of creepy.
13. Pat 13

    28 August 2019 at 11:10 am

    Although they would doubtless never admit it to themselves the 'toxic masculine' leaders railed against are themselves little more than tethered goats….and eminently replaceable.
14. SHG 14

    28 August 2019 at 11:18 am

    hashtag not all men
    • weka 14.1

      28 August 2019 at 12:24 pm

      was that meant to be a reply to vto?
15. Robert Guyton 15

    28 August 2019 at 12:45 pm

    Masculinity is toxic?
    • Robert Guyton 15.1

      28 August 2019 at 12:47 pm

      "Traits traditionally viewed as masculine in Western society include strength, courage, independence, leadership, and assertiveness."
      ” These testosterone driven clowns ”
      Is it testosterone driving these men? Causing them to make decisions? Testosterone, the main driver?
      • weka 15.1.1

        28 August 2019 at 12:55 pm

        "Masculinity is toxic?"

        No, the term refers to the kinds of masculinity that cause harm. It's not referring to masculinity generally, nor men generally.

        I think the drivers are societies that reward certain kinds of harmful masculinity (eg domination and aggression), and that testosterone is part of that picture but not a sufficient driver on its own.

        I don't like the term toxic masculinity for a range of reasons including that it tends to polarise us around an idea of good and bad men rather than looking at the systems that socialise or force men into certain behaviours and world views.
        • Robert Guyton 15.1.1.1

          28 August 2019 at 1:13 pm

          I just wonder about citing a chemical, testosterone, as the causative element for making such decisions as insulting someone's partner or inviting developers to expand their operations.
          • weka 15.1.1.1.1

            28 August 2019 at 3:19 pm

            I took that as metaphorical. It's interesting that Western science and culture has developed this idea that male aggression is the result of a single chemical. We could probably find some links there with the whole sorry mess.
      • greywarshark 15.1.2

        28 August 2019 at 12:55 pm

        We have women arguing over Parliamentary dress standards, someone isn't wearing a tidy jacket etc.
    • lprent 15.2

      28 August 2019 at 3:01 pm

      Based on my extensive research amongst the closest of critics (women), I’d say that “masculinity is just messy” is a more appropriate generalisation. This seems to be an almost universal concurrence amongst the best critics (women).

      However in this case I suspect that the toxic effect is largely from a few male peacocks flaunting their testosterone levels with posturing feathers aimed largely at some really stupid voters. Not the normal run of the messy and dowdy XY sapiens…

      😈
16. SHG 16

    28 August 2019 at 1:23 pm

    Donald Trump is 73. He's probably got about a much testosterone coursing through his veins as a newborn baby. Don't ascribe to hormones that which is probably just being an awful awful person.
    • greywarshark 16.1

      28 August 2019 at 2:02 pm

      Trump probably runs on adrenalin. This is a list of symptoms of an overdose. He has displayed many of these in the short time i have spent observing him. I reckon I am onto his problem. I will send my bill later and hope that NZ Post will deliver it.

      https://www.drugs.com/sfx/adrenalin-side-effects.html

      Symptoms of Overdose

      • Agitation
      • coldness of the skin
      • confusion
      • decreased awareness or responsiveness
      • decreased urine output
      • depression
      • drowsiness
      • hostility
      • irritability
      • lightheadedness
      • loss of consciousness
      • muscle twitching
      • rapid weight gain
      • rapid, deep breathing
      • seizures
      • severe sleepiness
      • stomach cramps
      • swelling of the face, ankles, or hands
      • lprent 16.1.1

        28 August 2019 at 2:54 pm

        small hands?
    • phillip ure 16.2

      28 August 2019 at 5:29 pm

      dunno about testosterone but trump has adderall pumping thru his veins..he crushes/snorts it…he has a collapsed septum..

      (source: writer on apprentice..)

      and melania is hooked on oxycontin – this is why she always has her handbag – junkies don’t like to be too far from their ‘precious’..

      (source: same as above..)
17. Ad 17

    28 August 2019 at 1:24 pm

    Mind you lobal hypernationalism is only going to get stronger.

    That needs hyper-strong demagogues.

    The left's politesse and process-obsession won't win anything at all these days.
    • mpledger 17.1

      28 August 2019 at 3:07 pm

      I don't see hyper-strong demagogues posturing at each other ending well. Seems more like a recipe for disaster.

      I guess the point becomes what is the thing we are supposed to be winning.
      • weka 17.1.1

        28 August 2019 at 3:21 pm

        Bloody good question.
      • Incognito 17.1.2

        28 August 2019 at 3:29 pm

        The human equivalent of a supernova, i.e. a superego.
      • Ad 17.1.3

        28 August 2019 at 9:41 pm

        Global politics is less stable, in no small part because of demagogues.

        But this isn't the 1990s, it's 2019. Instability is all there is.

        The thing, as ever, we are supposed to be winning, is the world itself.
      • Pat 17.1.4

        28 August 2019 at 9:52 pm

        'WE' arnt supposed to win anything….those winning (with the assistance of demagogues) are those seeking to retain their wealth and power
18. greywarshark 18

    28 August 2019 at 1:54 pm

    In the good old days, I understand, the aggrieved one would demand a duel to the death to defend his honour. Why don't these two boofheads do that, maim or kill each other as all un-needed animals that aren't behaving fashionably are being left to do, and the rest of us can turn to the problem and trying to ameliorate it. Kindly and practical are my watchwords!
19. greywarshark 19

    28 August 2019 at 2:11 pm

    Edit:
    I think Boorish Johnson is a case of toxic masculinity plus add-ons of being-up-himself, spoilt-brat syndrome and superior strategic telescopic education.

    However Corbyn is holding on so far with his old-fashioned well-worn masculinity, slightly threadbare, but may continue to serve its purpose until the end of the road.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49483374

    Brexit: Opposition MPs agree strategy to block no deal

    At present, the default position in law is that the UK leaves the EU on 31 October with or without a deal.

    MPs opposed to no deal want to pass a new law to change that.

    They have already done that once – in April, faced with the possibility of a no-deal exit on the original Brexit date of 29 March, they passed a law forcing Theresa May to ask for an extension to the UK's EU membership.

    The SNP’s Ian Blackford said he was “proud” of MPs for coming together.

    So the UK is making a bid to show that toxic masculinity can be overcome by concerted smarts from willing, thinking pollies committed to putting their own personalities and preferences aside to enable the work of serving the common good.
20. mickysavage 20

    28 August 2019 at 8:48 pm

    I just had the perfect comment via Facebook:

    "It's easy to blame testosterone, fascism and all things detestable for the situation in Brazil, but they're (a) superficial and (b) suit other political interests. He might just be a git."
21. vto 21

    31 August 2019 at 6:54 am

    Toxic masculinity is a poisonous term, that much is clear.

    But there is also a lot of confusion around "aggression". So often it is confused with anger, or violence. It is neither of those, although is useful for both for anger and violence – you can hardly be angry or violent while being 'defensive'.

    But aggression is a good trait when not used for those other bad purposes. Aggression is an assertiveness, a confidence, a stepping forward with boldness and without delay. It is a crucial element in the human condition.

    Aggression is not a bad thing, it is good. It is violence and anger which needs the control.
    • Drowsy M. Kram 21.1

      31 August 2019 at 1:26 pm

      Agression can be good/useful, and it can be bad/harmful.

      Aggression, anger & violence are all necessary to varying degrees, in certain situations.

      Unnecesary aggression, anger and violence are not good, IMHO. Can't imagine enjoying life in a hyper-aggressive society, even if it was violence free – the idea doesn't appeal.
      • Incognito 21.1.1

        31 August 2019 at 1:57 pm

        I’d go as far as to say that there is no default state in general; the only default is change.

        Fear, anger, aggression, violence, stress, et cetera, are all useful and even necessary responses to changing conditions and stimuli, be it from ‘inside’ (internal) or the external world (environment). They become problematic if there’s a faulty off-switch, if the response stays switched-on and becomes chronic.

        Chronic stress is a condition of modern times and modern man. This includes chronic stress on the environment (e.g. CC) and chronic ‘health’ conditions. We cannot (easily) remove all stressors but in order to survive and live well, we must learn to respond differently to stressors. Not easy when our biology, physiology, and psychology, for example, are all primed to respond in certain ways to known and novel stressors. In many ways, we need to rewire ourselves. Our adaptability or lack of it will determine whether we as the fittest will survive or not. So far, the signs are not all that clear and convincing …

        Thinking about this, it is or becomes counter-intuitive and in fact counter-productive to aim for BAU and status quo; it is not the natural state of and for being. Indeed, it leads and can only lead to pain and suffering …
        • Drowsy M. Kram 21.1.1.1

          31 August 2019 at 6:18 pm

          Thanks Incognito – the (illusory) promise of cost-free BAU as a chronic condition? Food for thought.

          There's an enormous, almost overwhelming 'force' (momentum) pushing BAU (with minor tweaks if you must) as the only way 'going forward'. At least three or four times a day RNZ tells us what's happening on the stock markets, what the currency exchange rates are, what gold is worth – when did that start? On the BBC ‘News’ channel, a hyperactive Aaron Heslehurst mutters how little time he has been allocated to inform viewers about the latest market trends, as news segments pop up between investment and tourism ads.

          BAU (with or without minor tweaks) cannot continue, but how to engineer/assist a timely stop or, better yet, U-turn for a 7.7 billion (and growing) juggernaut? We see the iceberg, but can’t change course. Or, we see the red light ahead (I hope it’s still ahead), but seem to be having some trouble finding, let alone applying the brakes, despite knowing that crashes are typically less damaging at slower speeds.

          Let’s do our best, and support those doing better – Robert Guyton's efforts and achievements are inspirational, not to mention WeTheBleeple, Weka, Greywarshark and many more. Andre's recently-described 'decreased consumption lifestyle' is something I’m aiming for. As many as possible should get there in their own time/way, ideally with encouragement/education/assistance.

          There would be a deal of satisfaction in coercing the deliberate laggards, but they’re a distraction, not worth the bother. Chin up 😊
          • Incognito 21.1.1.1.1

            1 September 2019 at 12:12 am

            Cost-free BAU? Nah, there’s no such thing as a free lunch and we all know that. The trick is to get somebody else to foot the bill, e.g. the business, the IRD/Taxpayer, the client/customer. Cost externalising is the smart way of doing business. If you’re not doing it, you’re doing it wrong!

            It’s hard yakka rowing against the stream of 7.7. billion fellow humans.

            With the Titanic, the passengers had no inkling and were not in control of the steering wheel or the helm. Are we, is humankind in the same boat?

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