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V Day!

Written By: - Date published: 8:16 am, December 17th, 2021 - 319 comments
Categories: covid-19, health, labour, national, same old national - Tags:

Yesterday was Aotearoa’s V day, the day that we reached the goal of having 90% of the target population vaccinated against Covid.

From RNZ:

The milestone means nearly 3,800,000 people have rolled up their sleeves for two Pfizer doses.

It comes hot on the heels of the three DHBs in Auckland’s metropolitan area reaching the target.

Seven of the country’s 20 DHBs have now reached 90 percent double-vaccination, and a handful of others are on track to reach the target in the next few days.

Ninety-four percent of the eligible population nationwide have had their first dose.

Auckland’s Counties Manukau District Health Board hit the vaccination target of having 90 percent of its eligible population fully vaccinated yesterday.

That means all three DHBs in the Auckland region have hit the vaccination target. By yesterday Auckland DHB was sitting on 95 percent and Waitemata DHB was on 92 percent.

Counties Manukau has the second biggest eligible Māori population for a DHB and the biggest eligible Pacific population in the country.

It is clear now that cases of Delta Covid have peaked and cases are on the way down.  From @Farmgeek’s excellent visualisation of the data:

We still have an extraordinarily low death rate and it is pleasing that hospitalisation and ICU rates have both peaked.  But vaccination rates for Maori are still too low and we need to keep working on this.

There are still major grumbles.  National continues to attack all aspects of the policy.  Remember how the vaccination roll out was described repeatedly as a shambles?  I kept saying it was not the start that mattered but the finish.  We are now in a position where the finish line is in sight and we are well placed to further reduce the incidence of Covid.  And our vaccination effort is world beating.  Who would have thought that we would have crushed 90% and be looking at a vaccination rate of 97% in some areas?

National’s comrades in the anti vaccination movement continue to rage against the machine.  Their paucity of understanding of what is going on is matched by their inability to find things out.  Scheduling a protest at Parliament the day after Parliament has finished for the year makes you wonder what it is they want to achieve.

National’s latest attacks have been on MIQ.  They want the borders open, now.  There is an active group engaged in litigation against the policy and suggesting that keeping us safe from the rampant spread of the virus through quarantining is a breach of their fundamental rights to come and go as they please.  All I can say is good luck with that argument.  In the middle of a pandemic significant limitations on the right to move in and out of the country are perfectly justified.

Like every other objection National has raised this one suffers badly from timing.  Overseas the Omicron variant is surging and infection rates are soaring, particularly in the United Kingdom.  And with the variant now in Australia continued MIQ is absolutely warranted.

The variant may or may not be less dangerous.  But vastly increased numbers can still overwhelm the health system.  And Australia in particular is in the midst of a nasty surge.

So currently the country is heading in the right direction and still has one of the best responses to the pandemic in the world.  But eternal threats continue.  The virus and the Omicron variant can never be taken for granted.

319 comments on “V Day! ”

  1. Dennis Frank 1

    Yes, you're right that the results have vindicated the govt's strategy. Labour deserves the polling differential that keeps its prospects looking good. I also agree that National have established a track record of repetitious mis-reading of the pandemic and their various attacks on govt strategy have collapsed dismally, woefully wrong in retrospect.

    The only bit I disagree with is "National’s comrades in the anti vaccination movement". I'm not aware of any National leader supporting an antivax protest since the pandemic began. In fact, they all three have supported the govt on the vaccination program.

    • Julian Richards 1.1

      It's how the cancelling nature of the present works, attach an angry slogan (from both sides of the us vs them). It's a reflection of our immature society. We're sadly not allowed to debate… Without being labelled with some easy/boring slogan ie #antivax

      • mickysavage 1.1.1

        But so much of the anti side of the debate is based on lies. It is difficult to have a reasoned debate when most of the material on one side is completely lacking in reason.

        • Julian Richards 1.1.1.1

          Both sides of the us vs them situation are guilty of what you've said. And that is a fact!

          Manipulation of facts is propaganda, again both sides are guilty. And sadly we don't have the maturity to debate this as a society because of the politicised nature of this global event.

          Imagine if there was a live streamed debate (NZ) of the contested facts by both medical and scientific professionals, no politians (they observe and listen with us all). Maybe then the ballast would become evident…

          • mickysavage 1.1.1.1.1

            Debate time is over. The high vaccination rate has seen Covid infection levels plunge, just as the experts said would happen. And I have not seen pro vaccinators walk around with nooses and signs alleging that war crimes have happened.

            • Shanreagh 1.1.1.1.1.1

              Debate time is over.

              Let us see what the future holds now. We live, for better or worse, in a new normal where the rights of populations are seeking a place at the table with the 'me, me' groups. Individuality has had a clear run for so long, possibly to the detriment of society as a whole, and a focus on the rights of the whole population will have an uncomfortable feeling for some.

              • Sanctuary

                This isn't a new normal. It is a return to the status quo ante of the world before the madness of neoliberalism and boomer narcissism.

            • Sanctuary 1.1.1.1.1.2

              Well Mickey you asked for it so here is a paraphrase of Churchill…

              Ninty percent vaccination is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. but it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning. Henceforth covid will meet equally well prepared, and perhaps better protected populations. We mean to hold our own… …We are, and here we stand, a veritable rock of reason and good government in this drifting world.

          • Shanreagh 1.1.1.1.2

            As an idea of what this might look like, what are the contested facts?

          • barry 1.1.1.1.3

            If we only allowed qualified people in the debate, it would be very short.

        • RedLogix 1.1.1.2

          I genuinely sense how that feels Mickey. COVID has absolutely been one of the biggest challenges to our public sense making in our lifetime – and it won't be the last. When people suspect they are being lied to, or not being told the whole truth, they immediately start speculating on what the truth might be absent any benefit of the doubt.

          And given how social media greatly increases the rate at which data moves about it's natural and normal that much of that speculation will arrive at wrong places. But that does not improve the veracity of the original lie in the slightest.

          For people of good intent it's no fun at all watching or participating in any of this. Arriving at a place of trust and accepted truth can be slow and painful, it might never be reached. But we have no other sane choice but to walk this path.

          • Robert Guyton 1.1.1.2.1

            "When people suspect they are being lied to…"

            Put another way, when people are actively encouraged/mislead into believing they are being lied to…

            The corrosive agents who are actively manipulating society should not be forgotten about. Their success will encourage further forays into cultural manipulation.

            • RedLogix 1.1.1.2.1.1

              Put another way, when people are actively encouraged/mislead into believing they are being lied to…

              It's my strong conviction that more than 90% of COVID fatalities could have been avoided if we had taken some simple, well understood, public health measures as early as April last year.

              But it was vaxes or the highway and nothing else was allowed to be considered. Well it's turned out a bust – the vaxes are not going to stop COVID. So now it's fucking booster shots forever – geeze do you people ever listen to yourselves?

              I've consistently taken a view that we needed to use all the tools available to us, including vaccinations. But that open position is being eroded by the refusal of so many people to deviate from narrow, frankly politically motivated thinking that demands we only listen to our medical overlords in Wellington.

              More than anything else – and this is my main point – COVID is a disease of living indoors. It consumes those of us who are already ill from the consequences of our failure to properly understand the wider public health implications of this. Instead the whole damn event was politicised from the outset – the partisan noise drowning out any chance we might hear the message.

              • Robert Guyton

                Simple, public health messages, such as, wash your hands well and often, wear masks, keep your distance when around others, cough into your elbow, restrict numbers at events, record your whereabouts and so on?

                Other initiatives: eat good food, get enough sleep, stay hydrated etc. are background noise being made at all times, so a Government needn't broadcast those especially.

                • RedLogix

                  Those simple measures have their merit and usefulness up to a point, but fail when dealing with high R value variants. Masks and social distancing work to reduce peak viral load in indoor settings – that's about it.

                  There is also good reason to think that in the long run, trying to keep people in a sterile environment is both futile and counterproductive from an immune system perspective.

                  • Robert Guyton

                    Hardly sterile – more, buffered, in order to slow the movement of the virus.

                    "In the long run"?

                    You have confidence in the mutability or otherwise of the virus that's presently leading us on this merry chase?

                    No surprises lurking in the wings?

                    • RedLogix

                      You have confidence in the mutability or otherwise of the virus that's presently leading us on this merry chase?

                      That's possible but evolutionary theory suggests it's unlikely. In general the most transmissible variant will always dominate – completely displacing all others as we saw with Delta. That's fairly clear.

                      The question of morbidity is harder to answer, but it's reasonable to think there is an evolutionary trade-off going on, that in order to become more easily transmissible, it's had to give up some of it's morbidity. And there is no selection advantage to the virus in killing off it's host. It just wants to replicate – and Omicron is so far the best at this. And this is probably how most pandemics in the past – before we had the technology to track the variants – came to an end.

                      I do accept however that we need to be prudent for a few more weeks. The data out of SA is encouraging, but ideally we want to see what happens in say the UK or EU before we leap to allowing it in. I understand it's an irreversible step for NZ and we'd want to be very sure we were not giving up a hard won advantage prematurely.

              • Drowsy M. Kram

                So now it's fucking booster shots forever – geeze do you people ever listen to yourselves?

                Booster? I'm in, provided this damn pandemic 'event' doesn't get me first.
                In for a penny, in for a pound. wink

                • Shanreagh

                  I get a flu vaccine every year and have done since having influenza twice and pneumonia overseas. What is the big deal with a booster. some diabetics have multiple injections of insulin, self administered per day. Others have infusions to counter the effects of prednisone for treating fibromyalgia. I don't see what the relevance of some sort of 'shock, horror' that either a different formulation may be necessary (influenza) or a booster because the antibodies from infection or vaccination for Covid are not long lasting.

                  I don't get this as an argument against the vaccination. I mean we have to breathe and eat to keep ourselves alive & healthy…….to advance an reduction ad absurdum argument.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    Yep, I'll be lining up for my booster jab(s) – vaccines are a relatively effective tool in the pandemic response ‘kit’, but no medical treatment is perfect and it seems churlish to grizzle about them so.

                    Darn anti-vaxxers – "How much blood on their hands?", I wonder.

                    • Bill

                      From what I've read, Red Logix isn't anti vaccination. Informative and intelligent vid from Dr Campbell in that link though. You should watch it. 😉

                • Bill

                  Booster shots of a leaky vaccine for ever? Really? Putting aside questions of safety, I have to take it that you're unaware of Marek's virus? In brief – keeping a population dosed with a leaky vaccine can result in a virus becoming much more dangerous and deadly than it naturally would.

                  Here's a 'popular' article (easy read) from 2015 that contains a link to the actual study if you're curious.

                  https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/tthis-chicken-vaccine-makes-virus-dangerous

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    Booster shots of a leaky vaccine for ever?

                    Not "for ever", just until death. Eight years ago I began to avail myself of 'free' annual (leaky) influenza vaccines and never looked back. Very mild adverse reactions, and no 'flu' – for eight years! Lucky me.

                    I'm no vaccinologist, and so choose to follow expert health advice, warts and all. She's a hard road finding the perfect vaccine, and still some believe they are "the largest untapped resource for improving health globally" (thanks to Rosemary McDonald for that link).

                    There will be new and improved vaccines in future, and not only for pandemic mitigation – hope they're available to all who might benefit.

        • Bill 1.1.1.3

          But so much of the anti side of the debate is based on lies. It is difficult to have a reasoned debate when most of the material on one side is completely lacking in reason.

          I'm more than happy to have a reasoned debate with you micky.

          In fact, if you're up for it, we could set up a dedicated post that can run over a few days where only you and I can submit reasoned responses to one another.

          And just so that you know – I'm not anti-vaccine. I was in favour of the first lock-down NZ had. And I believe in a multi-pronged approach to Covid that might include repurposed or off shelf use of effective medicine and simple public health messaging for people on what they might do to bolster their general health and immune system to lessen the impact of disease they might experience from contracting Covid. And I am implacably opposed to traffic light systems, mandates, job losses and injecting children with m-RNA.

          You up for it?

          • RedLogix 1.1.1.3.1

            Yup. That's pretty much where I'm at Bill. yes

            • Dennis Frank 1.1.1.3.1.1

              I agree those nuances are worth exploring. Best way to transcend the binary! I'll use my daughter as an example: she's 41 & her mother had to explain on a phone call to her a while back that she'd never had govt vaccines as a child.

              That's because we agreed way back then that we would give her a better start in life than we had. Reliance on natural immunity will only get you so far, of course, so I'm not saying being Green requires ideological purity – but the fact that mainstream medicine doses everyone with antibiotics routinely crashes their immune system every time. We look back now and comprehend why cycling in & out of illness all the time seemed normal before the end of the 1970s.

              So now we ingest acidophilus & bifidus in yoghurt after any antibiotics to repopulate the gut & get our immune systems back into operation. I believe my daughter had to get the covid double jab with her Italian partner because they escaped Melbourne a couple of months ago & now live in Rome. I think if I were her in middle age I'd give serious thought to precautionary vaccination against some of the other standard infectious threats too…

          • mickysavage 1.1.1.3.2

            Happy to Bill. My comment was addressed to the Bill Gates Chip George Soros World Government spectrum of the debate.

            • Bill 1.1.1.3.2.1

              Cool. Let's arrange it then, aye? I think I still have your number – so maybe it would be worthwhile we chat and agree on some parameters or format or what not?

              I'm not available tomorrow, but more or less any time works for me.

            • Jenny how to get there 1.1.1.3.2.2

              The debate that needs to be had – and won

              An Auckland Pacifica politician and a Maori health researcher say the Childhood vaccine roll-out, must prioritise South Auckland

              Covid-19: Boy's death brings call for south Auckland children to get vaccine first

              Lucy Xia 17:44, Dec 18 2021

              A councillor says children in south Auckland should be prioritised when the Covid-19 vaccine is rolled out for 5 to 11-year-olds.

              Manukau Ward councillor Efeso Collin’s call follows the death of a child who tested positive for Covid-19 – a Māori boy under the age of 10 – in his ward area….

              …South Auckland has the largest Pasifika population in New Zealand and a significant Māori population, both known to be at higher risk of hospitalisation for Covid-19.

              Collins is calling for an “immediate roll-out for children in south Auckland, Māori and Pasifika children”, as soon as the paediatric formulation becomes available.

              “It’s what we failed to do in the general [Covid] vaccine roll-out,” he said.

              Collins repeatedly called for South Auckland to be first in the vaccine queue for the general roll-out.

              ….Collins’ views are shared by health researcher Dr Rawiri Taonui.

              Taonui said: “It is absolute priority that Māori and Pasifika is front and centre” of the paediatric Covid vaccine roll-out.

              “Starting in Manukau and everywhere else as well.”….

              …Documents released under the Official Information Act show Cabinet chose not to prioritise vaccination for all South Aucklanders, despite the advice of health experts.

              https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/127324726/covid19-boys-death-brings-call-for-south-auckland-children-to-get-vaccine-first

              Just as I said yesterday, a lot is resting on this tragic case of a Maori child's death in South Auckland. In my opinion, the government would be terribly remiss if it didn't take seriously councillor Efeso Collins' and health researcher Dr Rawiri Taonui' call for the government to prioritise the children of South Auckland for the childhood vaccine roll out.

              Jenny how to get there…

              18 December 2021 at 10:00 am

              A lot is hanging on the results surrounding this terribly sad death.

              Every death of child is tragic, especially if it is determined it was preventable.

              The outcome of the final determination of this child's cause of death may impact government health policy.
              If the child's cause of death was by covid. The question is how many Maori* children's deaths are acceptable.

              I would say that one is too many.

              *Maori being identified as particularly vulnerable to death and illness due to covid-19.

          • Shanreagh 1.1.1.3.3

            And I am implacably opposed to traffic light systems, mandates, job losses and injecting children with m-RNA.

            Not much scope for a discussion there I would have thought.

            Good health messaging is essential every day not just in times of Covid. There have been people like Boyd Swinburn advocating against obesity and food choices, people have sought a sugar tax, our food labelling is getting better and better.

            Researchers are working on drugs to help those hospitalised with covid, there are multiple applications being considered through Medsafe at the moment.

            https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/treatment-applications.asp

            I have read that for the vaccinated with a breakthrough case of Covid the tips and tricks for a heavy cold are those recommended ie hydration, analgesics, rest. Some isolating at home are getting oximeters.

            This is an extremely infectious virus and we should not be too quick to normalise treatment of it by suggesting people treat it at home.

          • gsays 1.1.1.3.4

            Hi Bill, pleased to read your comments here again.

            FWIW, I would find great value in a discussion in regards the health, political and social impacts of the virus and the state's reactions.

            Without the emotional name-calling.

      • Shanreagh 1.1.2

        This argument about not being able to debate because of labels is facile and trips easily off the tongue. As MS says the reality is different. Actually those who are vaccinated, in my circles, have no desire really to posture and act evangelical with arguments for the process but do respond to arguments put forward by those against the process that lack rigour logic etc. On another board I spent the best part of this year following and countering every argument put forward against the vaccination. Any conspiracy theory or misreading of facts I have seen them.

        Aside from those I know who are immuno compromised the arguments put forward were woeful. The immuno compromised that I know are/were working closely with their doctors to find the best match and none are anti the vaccination per se, realising that their status means they are in great need of protection.

        As for the debate on job requirements, travel requirements to keep populations safe these do have superficial concerns until the reasons requiring this for health professionals, teachers and other front facing positions are examined. With another vaccine being available then presumably the people who have a concern about the mRNA Pfizer vaccine will be able to obtain that and the numbers of those unvaccinated will lessen.

        Unfortunately it does not help the cause of those with concerns about either the vaccines or the job requirements that the ones leading the opposition are the likes of the Freedom and Rights Coalition with such people as Destiny Church and Sue Grey's groups and others featuring in the write-up by David Farrier https://www.webworm.co/p/loopy

        It also does not help to find the number of pro Trump banners in the marches.

        Knowing that many good sayings are either from the Bible or Shakespeare I am not surprised that the Bible is the source of the saying about being aware of the company ie the motives of those you associate with…..

        He who walks with the wise grows wise but a companion of harm suffers harm (Proverbs) & 'Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit” (Matthew 7: 16-17). Much of the research on cults and the necessity not to question, when one is in a group, are relevant as well.

        I am sure that there are people who have quietly made the decision not to vaccinate, discussing it with trusted health professionals that do not see the need to march or debate, using 'the sky is falling' modes of argument. They will have done this knowing the consequences.

        • Robert Guyton 1.1.2.1

          Very well put, Shanreagh.

        • RedLogix 1.1.2.2

          Consider the small but non-zero chance that these novel vaccines have some long-term health implications we have yet to properly determine. What if for instance it turns out that the vaccines double the chance of heart attacks over time?

          If this happens the people who promoted them will never be forgiven. The resulting backlash might see Labour vanish from Parliament for at least a generation. While I accept the probability of this scenario is unknowable, the consequences are not – they would be catastrophic.

        • Julian Richards 1.1.2.3

          NZ Ministry of Health advice to all medical professionals nationwide:

          "Asymptomatic infection is the issue, not the vaccination status of the patient."

          "Developing a separate pathway for vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals will not prevent the risk of inadvertently seeing an infectious person (regardless of vaccination status)"

          Really, we're not allowed to talk about this!?

          What is going on in this country? Why can we not discuss this?

          • Shanreagh 1.1.2.3.1

            Why do you keep saying we are not allowed to discuss this? Who is stopping anyone from discussing this?

            • Julian Richards 1.1.2.3.1.1

              Then go ahead, discuss the points made by the Ministry of Health… Hoping it won't just be crickets like the media! Because they are silent on this document!

              • julian richards

                Crickets………

                • weka

                  don't know what you are trying to say here. If you want to talk about something, then talk about it. If people aren't interested you can't make them talk.

                  • julian richards

                    "Asymptomatic infection is the issue, not the vaccination status of the patient."

                    "Developing a separate pathway for vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals will not prevent the risk of inadvertently seeing an infectious person (regardless of vaccination status)"

                    This is the NZ Ministry of Health position statement. This clearly puts into question the 'opportunity passport' system. And the silence seems to be because many can't bring themselves to make a U-turn and admit there's a clear problem with this 'new system' considering this 'position', it's so flawed. And the silence around this both in mainstream media and hardcore believers in this system is a red flag of …Oh shit Houston, we have a problem.
                    No problem here, don’t look here….Look over here.
                    No focus, there is a very clear problem with the thinking behind this ‘new system’ of opportunity passports!

                    • Bill

                      Bear in mind that the PM recently spun some nonsense about how passports were intended to protect the unvaccinated from the vaccinated.

                      I know….

                    • Bill

                      And just heard of a 9 year old whose family has been told she will now be excluded from drama classes if she's not vaccinated.

                      Rather noble and caring that they are determined to get ahead of the curve vis a vis government extending 'coverage' down to 5 year olds, aye?

                    • julian richards

                      And yet asymptomatic vaccinated individuals to do not need to be tested flying around the country?

                      "Asymptomatic infection is the issue, not the vaccination status of the patient." 'NZ Ministry of Health position statement'. Mainstream NZ media refuses to report this position statement!

                      Currently in NZ the only asymptomatic vaccinated individuals allowed to be tested free of charge, are those who are medical professionals, those who have been binged by the new tracing system as at a location of the 'new systems' location of interest and non-vaccinated travelers on AIRNZ domestic flights (other air travel also) and ferry customers of business. Everyone else must pay!

                      The NZ government said Rapid antigen testing would be available nationwide free of charge from DEC 15th, but changed this at the last minute. Why? This is a problem that media will not report/inform the public of. Crazy!!!

                      Go to a pharmacy and try and get tested, good luck! Unless you fit the criteria you can not be tested. Go to a Ministry of Health covid19 testing station and try and tested 'free of charge' unless you've signed up to the passport and been binged, good luck! I've tried (to protect a vunerable family member) and was told no, I'm not eligible. This is a major problem now that asymptomatic vaccinated individuals are freely flying around the country and that they are not required to be tested!

                    • julian richards

                      @Bill

                      Oh, wont somebody think of the children….. Inject them!

                      But they're at little to no risk…..10,000 times less risk than an 80 year old….Inject them!

                      https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(21)00066-3/fulltext

                      Reported today in NZ:

                      “A young child, who sadly died earlier this week, was tested for Covid-19 post-death and returned a positive result." Tick, child covid death. "the underlying cause of death may have been unrelated to Covid-19." Tick, covid19 death.

                      Oh, wont somebody think of the children….. Inject them to protect them!

                    • weka

                      When you quote from off site (or another TS page) you have to link. If it's a big thread and you are repeating a copy and it's not obvious the source, then link again. This is easy to do give you are copy pasting anyway. I'm now deleting quotes from comments by people who should know better. That includes you now. You are always welcome to repost with a link.

                      The reasons for this are:

                      • people want to see the context of the quote
                      • it makes it less likely for people to run political lines here without being fact checked
                      • it's courteous to the copyright holder
                      • it improves the quality of the debate and keeps it robust

                      Less comments, more content was how I put it recently. Meaning, we want more meaning and ease of understanding.

                      please provide a link for your quote in the comment I am replying to, thanks.

                    • weka

                      that's not the right link as far as I can tell. It's the MoH stuff you have been quoting that needs a link. The onus is on you to sort this out, including figuring out how to track replies and threads. Ask for help if you need to.

                      Fewer comments, and better content in the comments you do make.

                    • Julian Richards []

                      I contacted the MoH myself and questioned these points (as mainstream media won't), after they initially refused to answer unless I supplied my name, telephone number, vaccine pass code (?) and address, which I refused, all I got was hard swallowing and word/explanation silence! They could not/would not answer. What the hell is going on?!

                    • Julian Richards []

                      Where are the free of charge, nationwide, rapid antigen tests as was publiced would available to all NZ'ers from Dec 15th at pharmacies (controlled testing environments) as restrictions were relaxed? Why, at the last minute were these tests restricted to only 'asymptomatic vaccinated' healthcare medical professionals and 'asymptomatic non-vaccinated' private business customers (AIRNZ etc)??

                    • weka

                      from what I can tell RAT isn't very reliable.

    • georgecom 1.2

      love how Churchill is giving the fingers to National, Act, the untidy & disorganised 'freedom' groups. 8 million pfizer doses dispensed. if we are hastening the provision of boosters, wonder if our ordered supply will hold up to the demand. we have about 2 million doses still not used from our initial order of 10 million

  2. Jenny how to get there 2

    "This is not the beginning of the end, this is the end of the beginning", Winston Churchill.

    The percentage vaccination level of the total population for herd immunity against polio is 80%

    The percentage vaccination level of the total population for herd immunity against measles is 95%

    Nobody knows what the percentage level for herd immunity for Covid-19 is because it has never been achieved. But I suspect that it is around the 95% level. (Of the total population, including the over 5s)

    • Rosemary McDonald 2.1

      But I suspect that it is around the 95% level. (Of the total population, including the over 5s)

      A brave guestimate…would you like to show your working? I'd really like to see where you sourced the data to arrive at that number. I guess you are looking at overseas experiences?

      A few links would be helpful.

      • Jenny how to get there 2.1.1

        Just as you say Rosemary, 95% is a 'guestimate'. And quite possibly also an optimistic ('brave') estimate.

        It is quite likely that the extremely infectious Omicron variant is so fast spreading that it will throw even 'guestimates' out the window.

        Despite this I still think. 95% vaccine coverage for the 'total' population is a worthy goal.

        • Rosemary McDonald 2.1.1.1

          It was the use of the term "herd immunity"…which the last I read it had been determined that this was never going to be achieved through use of the current "vaccines".

          A reasonably good piece here from AlJazeera.

          The very idea of “herd immunity” itself is a false concept when it comes to COVID. We have seen how antibodies naturally acquired through infection do not make you “immune” to the virus and many people have reported getting second infections. The same is true for the vaccines; their aim is not make those vaccinated “immune” to the virus but to protect them against becoming seriously ill should they contract the virus. This is different to previous vaccination programmes, such as for measles and smallpox, where vaccines did confer immunity to the disease.

          Such a pity they insist on calling non sterilising vaccines "vaccines."

          We need a new word for these products so folks do not get confused or have unreasonable expectations.

          • Julian Richards 2.1.1.1.1

            Sadly, no one cares about the truth if they don't lie. That's marketing 101.

            Conveniently the definition of a vaccine was changed late 2020 by the WHO.

            And the third booster would also only be by definition a prophylactic without this required change for marketing purposes.

            • Bill 2.1.1.1.1.1

              Conveniently the definition of a vaccine was changed late 2020 by the WHO

              And by the Merriam Webster dictionary. It also shifted the definition of "anti-vaxxer' to encompass opposition to mandated vaccination programmes.

          • Tricledrown 2.1.1.1.2

            Rosemary Mcdonald once again you are putting the worst possible scenarios.

            Vaccines are Vaccines

            Every Vaccine has an efficacy.

            MMR 95% with sterilising.

            Whooping cough has a much lower efficacy and much shorter term of protection.

            Anti vaxxers have 0 efficacy on the Truth.

            Trying to make themselves victim's using false information and cherry picked facts to suit their agenda.

            But 1 in 40 over 60yrs of age who are unvaccinated who contract Covid are dying in the US

            Those who are vaccinated your chances in NZ are 1 in a million.

            I take it Rosemary you are in the older age bracket so the older you see the risk goes up exponentially.Then add underlying health conditions like Asthma,high blood pressure,obesity .

            Facts not cherry picked quotes from Al jazzera.

            Its your choice not to get immunised don't make out your a victim.

            No one is criticising your decision yet your trying to shift the blame on to the 90% plus who have taken the brave risk to roll up our sleeves to give every one a better chance of surviving including you.

            So be thankful the overwhelming majority are thinking of those who don't want to vaccinate or who can't.

            • weka 2.1.1.1.2.1

              She just pointed out that the covid vaccines won't produce herd immunity at this point in time. Is she wrong about that? It's an important point.

              • Craig Hall

                I think saying that a vaccine which does not achieve 100% non-infection is not a vaccine merits complaints.

                • weka

                  I agree. I think saying that we can get herd immunity from current covid vaccines also warrants complaints. Which is what Jenny said and what Rosemary responded to and what I highlighted.

                  • Bill

                    Gibraltar was 100% double vaccinated with a large percentage triple vaccinated. And case numbers of Delta hit an upward trajectory regardless. Same scenario for Ireland that was in the high 90s for vaccination rates, and yet health care system got stretched and lock-downs came back in.

                    Those places only illustrated the already known medical fact that it is not possible to vaccinate a pandemic away (achieve herd immunity) if the vaccine in use is leaky – which m-RNA vaccines are.

                    • weka

                      In NZ we are using the covid vaccine to reduce deaths and disability and prevent overrun of a run down health system. It’s not the only thing we use, but it has a particular efficacy.

                      We also have a particular vulnerable section of the population (Māori and I assume Pasifika).

                      We are in a unique situation in the world because of our very low transmission rates and the relative containment thus far.

                      I really don't understand what is so hard to understand about that.

                      Arguments that rely on single factors eg x country has high vax rates but still had to use lockdowns, fail imo because they don't take into account the many factors that affect spread, negative outcomes and the ability to affect all of that.

                    • weka

                      I don't believe that herd immunity is possible currently, via any of the methods we have available. I've not see anything to suggest it is.

                    • Bill

                      The vulnerable should have been offered vaccination alongside full disclosure of risks and unknowns in order they could provide informed consent.

                      And anyone who was simply uneasy should also have been gien access to vaccination if they wanted it.

                      And then, just like as we do for the flu, the virus sweeps through the healthy and unvaccinated population and hits the vulnerable who have presumably been given a measure of protection by the vaccine.

                      Instead, we got subjected to "project fear" and a laser like fixation on a singular solution.

                      We were told the fatality rates could be as high as (was it 6%?) and we were told people were dropping dead on the streets of China…then the numbers got fudged to all hell by counting people who died with Covid as people who died of Covid (the authorities are still doing that).

                      And the number of +ve test results became the driver of public health policy, as though it matters one jot how many people are infected – ie, severe illness and death are the important metrics. And again. The mortality rate for those who get infected in the under 70 age group is 0.05% (peer reviewed scientific literature and WHO bulletin)

                    • weka

                      The vulnerable should have been offered vaccination alongside full disclosure of risks and unknowns in order they could provide informed consent.

                      And anyone who was simply uneasy should also have been gien access to vaccination if they wanted it.

                      And then, just like as we do for the flu, the virus sweeps through the healthy and unvaccinated population and hits the vulnerable who have presumably been given a measure of protection by the vaccine.

                      Covid vaccines reduce the likelihood of getting covid (to an important degree). Which means less people getting covid, which slows spread, which means the hospital system isn't overrun, which means less deaths. That's in addition to the other benefits.

                      We don't know what would happen in NZ with letting it run free, but we do know that more cases of covid increases the rate of new variants appearing. Maybe if at the start it had been let rip, we'd be through it by now. Or maybe not, maybe we'd be much worse off (the UK certainly is). Either way, I can't see how the MoH or Labour could be expected to take that gamble.

                      Instead, we got subjected to "project fear" and a laser like fixation on a singular solution.

                      We were told the fatality rates could be as high as (was it 6%?) and we were told people were dropping dead on the streets of China…then the numbers got fudged to all hell by counting people who died with Covid as people who died of Covid (the authorities are still doing that).

                      Don't know who you've been listening too, I was never told those things.

                      I see people saying that thing about death reporting, but haven't seen anything reliable on it. Is that happening in NZ?

                      And the number of +ve test results became the driver of public health policy, as though it matters one jot how many people are infected – ie, severe illness and death are the important metrics.

                      Long covid is a thing. Actually a major thing. I've noticed its absence in your comments. Getting covid matters a lot. Last I checked (a month or so ago), the MoH was using a conservative figure of 10% of people with covid get long term symptoms. Internationally the figure is more like up to 40%. Not all of those will be long covid serious enough to interfere with life, but the numbers are still potentially very serious.

                      Important in that is that we still don't know what long covid is. Covid does weird shit to people's bodied, sometimes really weird shit. Novel virus, we're still trying to figure all that out and that takes time. Saying that numbers of people getting infected doesn't matter is like taking half the pieces out of the jigsaw puzzle and saying you know what the whole picture looks like.

                      There are unknowns like how will kids be effected long term and what is the rate with vaccination, and the rate with new variants.

                      And again. The mortality rate for those who get infected in the under 70 age group is 0.05% (peer reviewed scientific literature and WHO bulletin)

                      See this is the problem with the reductionist, abstract approach. Put that figure up against the number of NHS medical and nursing staff in the UK who have died, got long covid, got PTSD, or left because of the risk or burnout. Then look at how that impacts on the ability of the NHS to function not just under covid, but over the next decade.

                    • Bill

                      We were told the fatality rates could be as high as (was it 6%?) and we were told people were dropping dead on the streets of China…then the numbers got fudged to all hell by counting people who died with Covid as people who died of Covid (the authorities are still doing that).

                      Don't know who you've been listening too, I was never told those things.

                      Here's a couple of randomly grabbed links from The Guardian. (And yes. NZ is tallying Covid deaths by counting both those who have died with Covid and those who have died from Covid)

                      The World Health Organization (WHO) has estimated the mortality rate from Covid-19 is about 3.4%.

                      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/13/how-many-will-die-of-coronavirus-in-the-uk-a-closer-look-at-the-numbers

                      and

                      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/31/a-man-lies-dead-in-the-street-the-image-that-captures-the-wuhan-coronavirus-crisis

                    • Robert Guyton

                      How hard hit were the Gibraltans, individuals that is, by the virus?

                      Was there death and destruction, or did they weather the storm, because of their vaccinated state?

                    • Bill

                      Case numbers were rising in a population with a 100% vaccination rate.

                      I don't understand the second part of your question. Covid has a very low mortality rate.

                      There is a population of 33 – 34000. There have been about 7 500 cases (don't know how they are determined) and 700 deaths (don't know how they are tallied)

                      You want to find out about specific times and trajectories, then you're going to have to rabbit hole that yourself.

                      Needless to say, (and again, this is peer reviewed scientific literature) – there is no discernible correlation between rates of vaccination and the rates of spread of Covid 19. The paper I'm going to link is a meta study that basically saw (if anything) a negative correlation which I'd be thinking could be doen to behavioural rebound – ie, as people think they are protected because vaccine, they become less mindful around sensible precautions they might take.

                      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8481107/

                    • Jenny how to get there

                      Bill…

                      17 December 2021 at 1:16 pm

                      ……numbers got fudged to all hell by counting people who died with Covid as people who died of Covid (the authorities are still doing that).

                      Well not in this case at least.

                      And a lot is hanging on the result.

                      A Māori child under 9 has died 'with Covid'. A coroner inquiry is being held to determine if the child died 'of Covid'. The healh ministry spokesperson said the cause of death is "unclear", possibly hinting that the child had no other known diagnosed life threatening illness as the cause of his death. The post mortem examination will try to confirm or disprove whether this young child had any other undiagnosed condition that may have contributed to his death

                      The death was not announced in the ministry’s daily 1pm update, however the ministry’s website shows that as of Friday, there was one death in the 0-9 age bracket, a Māori boy.

                      Ministry of Health spokesman Ben Heather confirmed to Stuff that data on the ministry’s website “is accurate”.

                      The child, who died earlier this week, was tested for Covid-19 after their death, as is common when the cause of death in unclear, a Ministry of Health spokesman said.

                      …..Tukuitonga was unable to comment on this case due to the lack of details, he said it would be unusual for a healthy child with no underlying medical conditions to die from Covid-19.

                      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300481147/covid19-child-under-10-becomes-youngest-case-to-die

                      A lot is hanging on the results surrounding this terribly sad death.

                      Every death of child is tragic, especially if it is determined it was preventable.

                      The outcome of the final determination of this child's cause of death may impact government health policy.
                      If the child's cause of death was by covid. The question is how many Maori* children's deaths are acceptable.

                      I would say that one is too many.

                      *Maori being identified as particularly vulnerable to death and illness due to covid-19.

                    • Bill

                      So, a child is dead, and tested positive for Covid post mortem. And the headline…

                      "Covid 19:Child under 10 becomes youngest case to die."

                      A lot wrong with the headline, but we know well enough the message it seek to convey. And if the coroner identifies death was as a result of something else, do you really think that will be headlined so that people who initially only read the headline and jumped to the intended conclusion have their fears assuaged?

                      If one child dying from a natural event would be "one too many", then would one child dying from m-RNA side effects be one too many given that a healthy child's risk of death from Covid is about 1 in 2 million?

                      Or, given that 1 in 2 million figure, how many children can have their health and well being shattered by an m-RNA injection before that's considered too many?

                      Here's a link to Maddie de Garay's story – a child who was a part of a Pfizer trial, who got severely injured, and then "swept under the carpet".

                      https://trialsitenews.com/mother-of-maddie-de-garay-speaks-out-about-her-13-year-old-daughters-life-altering-injuries-from-pfizers-covid-vaccine/

                    • KJT

                      Gibralltar vaccinated 140 % of their population numbers. Including a lot of Spanish from the mainland.The actual percentage of the Gibralter population vaccinated, was much less than 80%.

                      This has already been discussed, along with credible references.

                      The current lack of an exponential rise in cases in Auckland, and low rate of hospitalisation, with high vaccination rates, low R number, is a local confirmation of the effectiveness of vaccination.
                      Look up the R number in places with lower vaccination rates.

                      Every vaccine is "leaky" to an extent. Not one is perfect. Why do anti-vaccers so often feel the need to misuse statistics and research.

                      Or. Is it simply they slept through science and math classes?

                    • Julian Richards []

                      "The actual percentage of the Gibralter population vaccinated, was much less than 80%"

                      Supply links, because I recall you were proven very wrong… Misinformed by mainstream manipulative reporting!

                    • Jenny how to get there

                      Bill…

                      18 December 2021 at 10:45 am

                      So, a child is dead, and tested positive for Covid post mortem. And the headline…

                      "Covid 19:Child under 10 becomes youngest case to die."

                      I didn't include the headline.

                      Often with an eye to brevity and even wit, Headlines are often written by the compositor/editor, and usually after, their cursory reading of the actual article to be published, and not by the journalist who actually wrote the report.

                      Like you, I didn't think the headline matched the facts.

                      Bill, apart from the headline, do you have any actual criticisms of journalist, Lucy Xia's report?

                      You have not denied the facts, as they were reported by journalist Lucy Xia, that this boy had contracted Covid-19 and that this was only diagnosed post mortem.

                      You have not denied that Lucy Xia has acurately recorded that the Ministry of Health spokesman said. 'the cause of death is unclear'.

                      It is my contention that if the coroner finds that this child's death was primarily from complications caused by his Covid-19 infection. (possibly exacerbating an undiagnosed existing condition), the government has a duty of care to take these findings seriously, and to shape their covid response accordingly, especially as it affects Maori and other vulnerable communities.

                    • Jenny how to get there

                      Bill…

                      18 December 2021 at 10:45 am

                      ……how many children can have their health and well being shattered by an m-RNA injection before that's considered too many?

                      Here's a link to Maddie de Garay's story – a child who was a part of a Pfizer trial, who got severely injured, and then "swept under the carpet".

                      https://trialsitenews.com/mother-of-maddie-de-garay-speaks-out-about-her-13-year-old-daughters-life-altering-injuries-from-pfizers-covid-vaccine/

                      Hi Bill, I see a number of commenters on this thread, have already challenged you for making inaccurate and misleading claims.

                      Could I suggest, that taking TrialSiteNews as the source of your information on the Covid-19 vaccine, might be where you are going wrong?

                      Media Bias / Fact Check

                      https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/trialsite-news/

                      In general, TrialSite News reports a combination of credible pro-science information and pseudoscience when reporting on Covid-19 vaccines. Essentially, they are promoting anti-vaccine propaganda.

                      Failed Fact Checks

                      Overall, we rate TrialSite News a strong Pseudoscience source based on promoting misleading and false claims regarding Covid-19 vaccines. (D. Van Zandt 7/24/2021)

          • Drowsy M. Kram 2.1.1.1.3

            Such a pity they insist on calling non sterilising vaccines "vaccines."

            It's been normal (for some time now) to call a "non sterilising vaccine" a vaccine. It's "such a pity" that some folk are confused and/or have unreasonable expectations about vaccines, all the more so during a pandemic, don't you think?

            My main expectation of Pfizer jabs (past & future) is that if/when I'm infected with SARS-CoV-2 my immune system will be better prepared to keep me above ground and out of hospital – hope that's not too confusing or unreasonable.

            Marvellous vaccines – apparently “the largest untapped resource for improving health globally" (thanks Rosemary for that link). C'mon team – we can do 95%!

            Unite against
            COVID-19
            https://covid19.govt.nz

            Immune-mediated attenuation of influenza illness after infection: opportunities and challenges [PDF; December 2021]
            The chief danger in human influenza lies not in the effect of the virus on the nasal mucosa but in the tendency to lung involvement and if the presence of circulating antibodies is a check upon such pulmonary involvement it is possible that their production in man by vaccine inoculations would have some influence upon the mortality-rate of an epidemic even if it had no influence upon the morbidity.
            – Smith and colleagues, 1935

          • barry 2.1.1.1.4

            'Such a pity they insist on calling non sterilising vaccines "vaccines."'

            So we don't have a "vaccine" against Polio, and it went away all by itself?

            The mRNA Covid vaccines are amongst the most successful medical interventions ever. It is only the misinformed that have managed to convince themselves otherwise. If all the eligible people were vaccinated as they became eligible then we would be virus-free by now

      • DukeEll 2.1.2

        SHOW ME YOUR RESEARCH

        and next up in the anti vax conversation thread

        Those links are lies! mine are better. I've done my reading, educate yourself

        Amazing really that the worlds most powerful information sharing tool is used to deny science.

        • weka 2.1.2.1

          Jenny is arguing for herd immunity from high % covid vaccination. Afaik this isn't possible. Asking for references is useful.

          If you have science to show that herd immunity from covid vaccines is possible, please present it.

          This is what we do for robust debate.

          Using slurs to undermine someone without addressing their points isn't robust debate.

    • Craig H 2.2

      The usual calculation is 1-(1/R0), so if R0 is 6 (a suggestion for Delta), herd immunity would be 5/6 = 83.33%. As you've noted, the issues with Covid are how strong the vaccines are (or aren't) against infection, and also how strong a previous infection is (or isn't) against reinfection.

      Still, whatever the number is, it's not realistically achievable without at least the 5-11s being included, and even then we would need a high proportion of them vaccinated as well.

  3. Gordon 3

    There has been 1 death from Omicron from thousands of cases overseas. Evidence so far indicating much lower illness and death rate, and may not invade the deep lungs, maybe even more like a bad cold. Yet one whiff of Omicron and "lockdowns can't be excluded" and MIQ will likely be delayed.

    At what point does an 'emergency' response become a permanent fixture of our Government after almost 2 years and when a less serious variant somehow justifies tighter controls again?

    Any new variant, or virus, is gonna lead us here again. A kind of perpetually circular healthocracy where limited "freedoms" are dolled out sometimes, before taken away as the next fear comes along. Almost like an abusive spouse who thinks it's normal and deserves to be treated this way.

    The Bill of Rights says subject to limitations in a "free and democratic" society – that's our base point. Not an indefinite healthocracy nor continual worst-case modelling that is inevitably exahgerated nor hospital capacity a Government is only now, almost 2 years later, starting to tinker with.

    Omicron makes the vaccine mandate and passport hysteria even more of a complete joke. Even Dr Nick Wiles says "If it’s more vaccine-resistant that is a concern… But if it does spread widely in New Zealand it will basically immunise the unvaccinated population because they'll get infected" – and (my addon) be even more likely to survive above the already roughly 99.9%.

    Michael Plank points out that for all our self-congratulatory and coerced vaccination "although we have more people double-dosed, our 'wall of immunity' is significantly weaker than the UK's".

    But of course, Big Pharma say don't worry, we'll solve our failing product with more product! Our friends in Government will decree "boosters" (till they fail in 5 months with an even weaker Omega variant and we "need" a 4th..5th..6th shot?). The media will help narrate that you are a dirty, conspiracy-ladden anti-vaxxer if you won't embrace a mandatory pin-cushion future in exchange for Government permission to get a coffee or have a job!

    There was a excellent article yesterday on what Karl Popper would think of our Covid response. NZers traits of submissiveness and groupthink as the most danger to our civil liberties and democracy – we've had that full on.

    At what point does all this not add up? Our Covid hysteria and fear is beyond Left or Right, it's becoming a societel tumor eating away at our proud traditions.

    (And btw, UK death rate is declining whilst infections increase. Of course, exclusively obsessing over the infection rate is the favourite of the lockdown lovers. It grabs headlines and pumps the fear-adrenalin. The reality of a high Covid survival rate getting even higher under Omicron is irrelevant under a fearocracy).

    • I fully support anti-vaxxwes right to die of covid!

      https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/

      • Rosemary McDonald 3.1.1

        Anti vaxxers…the scourge.

        • Julian Richards 3.1.1.1

          Such a disgrace to have someone like this in a position of power. Its actually sad.

        • Tricledrown 3.1.1.2

          The truth hurts Rosemary.

          Aboriginal people are at a much higher risk of dying from Covid as are most indigenous peoples.

          As we see in NZ with 36% of all cases being Maori and a much higher death rate.

          My Wife and children are part Torres straight and aboriginal so are at much higher risk.

          Your selfishness is your selfishness don't keep pushing your antvax scare bs .

          I will call out all your victimhood antivax propaganda.

          You have made a decision not to vax fine , fine with me.

          But don't dare push cherry picked facts or anivax scare tactics !

          • Rosemary McDonald 3.1.1.2.1

            Clearly you're happy to be counted amoungst those who despise their fellow human beings who show sympathy towards those who have lost their jobs due to the mandates.

            Do you not have any worm of doubt at all that this is where society is being herded? Being derided for showing compassion?

            The vaccines do not prevent transmission.

            At the very best they will prevent serious illness and death for a short while.

            Healthy indigenous children in remote schools are highly unlikely to become very sick or die because of Covid.

            The operative word being "healthy". If these children are generally not healthy, this should have been addressed a very long time ago.

            Tell me Tricledrown…why, with all the vast medical experience and the availability of a vast array of existing therapies was there never, ever any feasible way of dealing with this novel virus other than novel vaccines?

            Why has there been no advice from our Ministry of Health about immune supportive lifestyles or diet? No removal of GST from fresh foods? No Vit D testing and supplementation?

            And further…do you not think it more than a little irresponsible of our Government to put all of their pandemic control eggs in the elimination and vaccination baskets?

            • weka 3.1.1.2.1.1

              At the very best they will prevent serious illness and death for a short while.

              My problem is how you express this as if it isn't incredibly important. It also probably prevents chronic illness.

              Healthy indigenous children in remote schools are highly unlikely to become very sick or die because of Covid.

              Not all Aboriginal and TI kids live in remote areas though. Afaik in places like the Northern Territories, the reason rates are low is because of border controls and other pandemic responses.

              And in NZ, Māori children aren't isolated.

              The operative word being "healthy". If these children are generally not healthy, this should have been addressed a very long time ago.

              Yes, but, what should be done about protecting those kids right now?

            • Robert Guyton 3.1.1.2.1.2

              "Why has there been no advice from our Ministry of Health about immune supportive lifestyles or diet?"

              Rosemary – just wondering if you are serious with this comment. Are you wondering whether at-risk communities might change their eating behaviour in response to Government advice? Or perhaps change their immune-hampering leisure behaviour to avoid Covid?

              I don't think you've thought this through well enough.

            • Tricledrown 3.1.1.2.1.3

              I am just calling out your propaganda flase equivalences .

              your decision not to vaccinate that's fine with me.

              But you continue spout spurious facts that's what I am calling out.

            • Tricledrown 3.1.1.2.1.4

              Here you go again spouting false equivalences .

              Indigenous people's around the world are more prone to Covid.

              Your healthy option is pure bs.

              All the research so far show genetics and age are the big factors.

              How many health gurus have died claiming they are so healthy covid won't affect or infect them.

              Then how many indigenous people are living in modern house with facilities to isolate on top of the genetic predisposition of being much more susceptible to covid.

              Your comment is despicable shifting the blame .

              The WHO said at the beginning that the genetic make up of indigenous people makes them more susceptible to infection from covid 19.

              As I said no problem with you not vaccinating.

              But don't throw shit every where because of the secalled tyranny of the vast majority 95% your in a tiny minority and blaming everybody else but yourself for your decision.

      • Julian Richards 3.1.2

        Fact check. You don't die of covid19, you may die (0.04% mortality rate in NZ) from the secondary effects of the infection. The virus doesn't kill you. So much misinformed nonsense being peddled.

        • weka 3.1.2.1

          technically everyone's death is the cessation of the heart beating.

        • Tricledrown 3.1.2.2

          Julian Richards you are cherry picking in the US where they don't have border controls and 90% plus vaccination rates.

          1 in 400 Americans have died 1 in 40 over 65.

          That figure does not include undocumented migrants and the excess death rate which is estimated to be another 800,000 which has gone up since covid making the covid possibly twice as deadly .

          If not for MIQ lockdowns NZers sacrificing and getting immunized your pathetic claim would have some substance.

          • Julian Richards 3.1.2.2.1

            What, the US? No this is NZ data.

            What are you on about?

          • Julian Richards 3.1.2.2.2

            Nz covid19 recorded infections 13,238. Deaths 48

            =0.0365% mortality rate.

            Please correct the NZ data if wrong!?!

          • julian richards 3.1.2.2.3

            Crickets….. @Trickledown? Where's your counter facts to discredit the NZ Ministry of Health figures?

            Were you confused? As you've said to others here, "the truth hurts".

        • Fact check: 83% of people hospitalised in NZ are not fully vaccinated.

          Don't know the vax/unvax death rate but I suspect non-vaccinated deaths far outweigh vaccinated one.

          • Julian Richards 3.1.2.3.1

            Fact check: 83% includes Asymptomatic picked up through routine hospital testing.

            Also includes children (as defined by the government) under 12yrs in the non-vaxxed group/number. Again Asymptomatic and symptomatic infections in children have have virtually no risk of covid19 complications as recognised by the all world scientists and medical professionals!

            A better comparison that they will not allow, is symptomatic hospitalizations in adults in all groups, no dose, one dose, two dose, three dose. Will paint a very different picture.

            • KJT 3.1.2.3.1.1

              Bollocks. That comparison is "publically available". Going to bed. But someone posted it a few days ago.

              • Julian Richards

                Go ahead, provide the link to falsify/confirm the manipulated figures.

                I've been requested to provide links to info. I provide links to reputable medical journals (Lancet etc). Please provide your reputable links of verified truthful information to all! Not bollacks mainstream media propaganda.

        • KJT 3.1.2.4

          Meanwhile outside your fantasy world.

          COVID-19 pandemic death rates by country – Wikipedia

          Death rates per million, UK. 2161. New Zealand. 9.

    • mickysavage 3.2

      Don't you think we should be sure about Omicron before deciding all will be fine?

      • Gordon 3.2.1

        No. I don't.

        Why? Because our presumption is liberty, innocent till proven guilty, and democracy.

        If you give that up for a disease that is – while serious – has a very small proportion of fatalities then where next? We got 90% vaxxed like we were told and what – more lockdowns, traffic lights, more MIQ? Nothing will please the eternally fearful and controlling parent/Government.

        If we presumed AND acted on the worst-case risks, then we would all be stuck at home terrified of flying, driving, or bascially going out. Its a dangerous world out there.

        All 'uber caution' means on a societel level is someone else pays the price, whether delayed cancer screenings, domestic violence, or Kiwis abroad unable to say goodbye to their mothers.

        I would also dislike under-caution where we do nothing and ignore all risks. That's why we counsel our adolescents to not be devil-may-care but realise we can't coddle our children indefinitely from all risks nor keep them as infants.

        (Although, as an interesting aside, this may be happening indirectly. Some interesting (but far from definitive) evidence from a longitudinal study in Rhode Island that children born during the pandemic had a 20 points lower IQ).

        • mickysavage 3.2.1.1

          Just to make sure I understand you are advocating for loosening up of restrictions like in the United Kingdom, America and Australia who are all seeing surges of the virus because we should never tighten up as a precautionary measure and should only tighten up when it is conclusively shown that the virus is dangerous? And we should not take into account overseas experience?

          • weka 3.2.1.1.1

            UK's shit show, biological reality meets political reality.

          • Freedumb of choice, don't you know, Micky.

        • Stan 3.2.1.2

          Yes, but to take your figure of "better than 99.9%" above:

          Let's say 1 million catch this less harmful omicron. 0.1% of those die ie 1000 deaths from it. Health system overloaded.

          Luckily you aren't in power and people who understand maths and public health are!

          • Julian Richards 3.2.1.2.1

            Fearful assumptions and misinformation are not helpful.

          • Tricledrown 3.2.1.2.2

            Thank god for that nit picking and cherry picking I know it's the season doesn't make a health response.

            A very small minority feel trapped by their decisions not content with their decisions.

            Anivaxxers shouting loudly spreading cherry picked facts and misinformation is all they have.

            So if you catch covid need treatment end up having long covid. Are the antvaxxers not going to the same healthcare system (that anti vaxxers are denegrating) and receive the best healthcare take antiviral pills from the same big pharma companies that make the vaccines.

            Yes they won't turn down the bottom of the cliff solution.

            How many shockjocks antivaxxers in the US have died 7 plus.

            All regretting they weren't immunized on their deathbed god didn't save them.

            Brian Tamaki calls the vaccine a poison yet he runs a vaccine clinic at his cult headquarters and is double vaxxed.

            • Robert Guyton 3.2.1.2.2.1

              "Brian Tamaki calls the vaccine a poison yet he runs a vaccine clinic at his cult headquarters and is double vaxxed."

              Is this true?

            • Christopher Randal 3.2.1.2.2.2

              Tamaki doesn't run the clinic – ARPHS does, and pays rent for the carpark.

              Purely in the interests of accuracy, and not to defend scum.

          • Bill 3.2.1.2.3

            Not everyone is suddenly or spontaneously infected. That's the first thing.

            And your 0.1% figure is more like the mortality rate for the Delta variant – which is 0.05% in the under 70 age group and just above your Omicron suggestion at 0.15% if that vulnerable cohort is included in the calculation.

        • weka 3.2.1.3

          (Although, as an interesting aside, this may be happening indirectly. Some interesting (but far from definitive) evidence from a longitudinal study in Rhode Island that children born during the pandemic had a 20 points lower IQ).

          This needs a citation, which means a link and a quote supporting your claim. The onus is on you to do this, not expect others to read a whole article and parse what you mean. I'm asking for this a moderator and I expect it before you comment much more on TS.

          • Bill 3.2.1.3.1

            That was an interesting comment, so a simple google search for Rhode Island IQ to satisfy my curiosity….https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2031

            In a longitudinal study of 672 children from Rhode Island that has run since 2011, those born after the pandemic began showed results on the Mullen scales of early learning that corresponded to an average IQ score of 78, a drop of 22 points from the average of previous cohorts.

            It's not peer reviewed yet, so yes, "far from definitive".

    • Rosemary McDonald 3.3

      Any new variant, or virus, is gonna lead us here again. A kind of perpetually circular healthocracy where limited "freedoms" are dolled out sometimes, before taken away as the next fear comes along. Almost like an abusive spouse who thinks it's normal and deserves to be treated this way.

      This. Thanks Gordon for putting the words together so eloquently.

      Hypervigilance…its a thing, its been studied, and I suspect its being systematically deployed.

      A number of prominent theories suggest that hypervigilance and attentional bias play a central role in anxiety disorders and PTSD. It is argued that hypervigilance may focus attention on potential threats and precipitate or maintain a forward feedback loop in which anxiety is increased. While there is considerable data to suggest that attentional bias exists, there is little evidence to suggest that it plays this proposed but critical role. This study investigated how manipulating hypervigilance would impact the forward feedback loop via self-reported anxiety, visual scanning, and pupil size.

      Floating around the darker sectors of the internet is a meme suggesting that those who watch the telly are more likely to be anxious about Te Virus. Many of my double vaxxed acquaintances have also given up the daily dose from the squawk box and are feeling much less stressed.

      A cynical person might think that there has been some degree of orchestration from the media/government partnership. Surely not.

      • Tricledrown 3.3.1

        Rosemary Mcdonald the kettle calling the pot black.

        Is that why you are self isolating on a DIY holiday

        The same could be said about those who troll the Internet to find half baked untruths to push the antvaxx agenda while claiming they are not antvax but don't want to be vaccinated.

    • observer 3.4

      Ironic that you use language like "fearocracy' while spreading the fear.

      Freedom's wonderful, you're certainly right about that.

      Let's see how NZ is doing …

      https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freedom-index-by-country

    • AB 3.5

      The actions that are required to deal competently with public health crisis – collective action and collective sacrifice – are deadly to the deliberately limited and self-serving understanding of freedom that has currency on the right.

      The intellectual strain of this fissure is forcing conservatives and neoliberals into even weirder pathologies – such as Gordon's comment which implies that even a very mildly center-left government has an underlying intent to make restrictions on freedom of movement permanent, irrespective of the scientific evidence. In truth, if Omicron does have lower morbidity, our border opening plans will proceed pretty much to schedule, because no underlying authoritarian intent exists.

      • mauī 3.5.1

        Have you looked outside? 2 years in.. and we have successfully segregated society, enforced mandates and restricted movement within the country.

        The religious right are the canaries in the coalmine, or should have been for any decent society.

      • Gordon 3.5.2

        If there is any intellectual fissure, its the Left gone full on tyrannical. It always had this lurking beneath its belief in the state always knows best and recent Woke identity politics which has been steadily expanding our notion of 'harm' and what coercion is allowed to respond to this. The Right's tyranny lies beneath appeals to national security and law and order.

        But right now it is overwhelmingly Left Government and 'experts' plying their fear and coercion. Even a year ago, mandates were literally called conspiracy theory by Government. Two years ago the idea of locking down an entire society for a disease killing less than 0.1% would've been paranoid fantasy, same with internal borders and Government permission to get a coffee.

        There is nothing centre-Left by this Governement's approach to Covid-19. It is from China's playbook. Combine that with a now semi-permanent fearful and submitted population, you are ripe for abuse of the "public good" and democracy. With Omicron looking less serious, 90% double vaxxed reached, but our regular band of 'experts' and Healthocrats baying again for more blood (control), it's clear we are stuck in an abusive loop. It's hard to see a way out. You can't comply your way to freedom – thats been the underlying problem.

        The fact is despite all my criticism of such fealty to unaccountable and hysteria prone academics, the Government hasn't actually blindly followed "the Science". Large parts of the recent advice to Cabinet on vaccine passports and traffic light levels were ignored. Why? Politics, and racial politics has been a significant part of that.

        So yes, in such a febrile environment where our response to Covid-19 becomes increasingly unmoored to science, democracy, and resiliance, and variants inevitable, I think we will be stuck with the sword of unfreedom forever above our heads from Labour, not to mention a segregated society for increasingly little purpose or value except to feed a anxiety ridden, dangerously self-righteous, and possibly PTSD-lite society.

  4. Julian Richards 4

    Where are the rapid antigen tests that were advocated both both government and media as being available free of charge nationwide from Dec 15th. Call or visit a pharmacy and try obtain one of these very basic preventative health care measures…. Good luck!

    The pharmaciea don't even know what's happening, how it'll work, who can get them and how they're identified etc.

    The government changed it at the last minute, currently this very simple and I'd say necessary preventative healthcare measure is only available to non-jabbed domestic flyers/ferry travellers. And front line asymptomatic vaccinated medical/healthcare providers ie aged care facilities, and other health providers, including emergency services, GPs, hospitals (BUSINESSES). They're blocked from use by the general public. Not acceptable for the general public.

    From the Ministry of Health own documents sent to all medical professionals nationwide a few weeks ago :

    "Asymptomatic infection is the issue, not the vaccination status of the patient"

    "When there is high COVID-19 vaccine coverage (i.e., above 80 percent of eligible people are fully vaccinated), transmission is more likely to occur from a vaccinated than an unvaccinated individual."

    "Rapid Antigen Tests are less sensitive than RT-PCR but have been shown to accurately identify mosti nfectious individuals".

    "Testing of individuals for COVID-19 can provide a high degree of reassurance that an individual does not have active infection."

    "Developing a separate pathway for vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals will not prevent the risk of inadvertently seeing an infectious person (regardless of vaccination status)"

    These statements not only put the into question the restrictions of rapid antigen tests by the government into question, but also the traffic light regime!

    Again… "Asymptomatic infection is the issue, not the vaccination status of the patient."

    Angry slogan and cancel this.

    • mickysavage 4.1

      Community collection of data from testing has a number of advantages and the rapid antigen tests are not accurate.

      • Julian Richards 4.1.1

        Did you not read this part? From the Ministry of Health:

        "Rapid Antigen Tests are less sensitive than RT-PCR but have been shown to accurately identify mosti nfectious individuals".

        And maybe read this, two or three times so it sinks in, again from the NZ Ministry of Health:

        "Asymptomatic infection is the issue, not the vaccination status of the patient"

        • Craig Hall 4.1.1.1

          They are only that accurate if properly administered, hence why they are being administered by pharmacies, not people at home after buying a kit at a supermarket.

          • Julian Richards 4.1.1.1.1

            Go try and obtain a rapid antigen test today from a pharmacy, good luck. You will be in for a surprise!

            • Tricledrown 4.1.1.1.1.1

              So what's your point anyone could spit into the test vial and be asymptomatic when tested and next day have full blown covid.

              DIY heathcare anyone could use someone else's saliva.

              Desperate undermining by a very small minority.

              Vaccination rates are heading to 95% thats leaving a very small minority feeling very vulnerable so attacking the vast majority with every little half baked truth is all they have left.

              If you don't want to get immunized fine but don't make fools of yourselves by claiming victimhood and using cherry picked 1/2 truths.

              Be satisfied with your decision and brave enough to accept it and any consequences it brings.

              Don't push your propaganda it just shows you are not happy with your decision.

              • Julian Richards

                The point is:

                "Asymptomatic infection is the issue, not the vaccination status of the patient.

                These are available (not yet, even though publicised as from Dec 15th) in pharmacies (controlled testing environments) for non-jabbed Individuals only. The tests are also available for Asymptomatic vaccinated medical professionals also, but not the general public as a simple preventative healthcare measure. Not good enough!

                "Rapid Antigen Tests are less sensitive than RT-PCR but have been shown to accurately identify mosti nfectious individuals". This is an acceptable and promoted method of testing in the asymptomatic vaccinated medical professions of NZ as advocated by the nz government, but not acceptable (in a controled pharmacy environment) for all NZ'ers… This is not an acceptable health preventative measure.

                It's propogating us vs them.

                Again, I'm not #antivax, I'm vaccinated. I'm trying to access this simple test to help protect a very vulnerable family member coming up to Christmas! For God's sake, stop the us vs them rubbish!

                • Shanreagh

                  Hopefully the very vulnerable individual has worked with their health professional and is vaccinated. Also the same for any people they are planning to come into contact with. My immuno compromised elderly friends both have Doctors/specialists who have worked with them right from the start to ensure that they had access to vaccines that would give them protection as their health status meant they would suffer greatly if they acquired Covid as an unvaccinated person.

                  Their own common sense has meant that they minimise the chances of coming into contact with unvaccinated individuals and will do so right up to Christmas and through the holidays. So the usual vaccinations, mask wearing, social distancing and hygiene. The risk is too great if you are immuno compromised.

                  I am not sure that the rapid access antigen tests were made available with Omicron in mind. Omicron seems to have a much shorter window of infection and otherwise healthy vaccinated but asymptomatic people would be testing every day.

                  I am assuming these are the people you are talking of ie it is not a vaccinated/non vaccinated question. Though it is a bit confusing?

              • julian richards

                @Trickledown. Crickets…… again? discuss the facts released by the NZ Ministry of Health:

                "Asymptomatic infection is the issue, not the vaccination status of the patient"

                "When there is high COVID-19 vaccine coverage (i.e., above 80 percent of eligible people are fully vaccinated), transmission is more likely to occur from a vaccinated than an unvaccinated individual."

                "Rapid Antigen Tests are less sensitive than RT-PCR but have been shown to accurately identify mosti nfectious individuals".

                "Testing of individuals for COVID-19 can provide a high degree of reassurance that an individual does not have active infection."

                "Developing a separate pathway for vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals will not prevent the risk of inadvertently seeing an infectious person (regardless of vaccination status)"

            • Craig H 4.1.1.1.1.2

              I'm not eligible for one, so being turned away wouldn't be a surprise in the slightest.

              • Julian Richards

                To be eligible you either must be a Asymptomatic 'vaccinated' medical professional, or a 'non-vaccinated' individual travelling on a flight or ferry.

                Why can't it be available to all as originally promoted by the government and media from Dec 15th? Not at home, but in a controlled environment of a pharmacy as was indicated they would be!

                Especially as Asymptomatic vaccinated are now travelling around NZ without the need to be tested!!!! Why?

                Why is recommended and available for 'vaccinated' medical professionals and not for every member of society who wants reassurance and enables to protect the vulnerable in their families etc!

                This belief that taking the injection and now we're free, social responsibilities absolved, no need for masks etc is rediculous! Free to go back to the things we love, the opportunity to consume useless stuff. What a joke!

                And yes both sides are guilty of not wearing masks.

                -Put your mask back on

                -Wash hands

                Social distance/awareness

                -and if you can, get tested.

                By the way if you've tried to get tested (as I have) you'll soon find out that you must pay (a lot) unless you've been 'binged' as a close contact or 'binged' as at a place of concern through the contact tracing/vaccine passport system.

                Getting tested is actually quite difficult and expensive!!! Again why, this is basic preventative healthcare!

        • Tricledrown 4.1.1.2

          Julian cherry picking a quote without the complete story pedantic nit picking.

          The rapid antigen tests have a 58% efficacy rate 37% less accurate than the PCR test 95% efficacy.

          Rapid antigen testing doesn't pick up the first 3days of infection either.

          But vaccinated health workers are tested regularly ,being vaccinated reduces infection by 80% reduces transmission by 80%.

          So having a rapid test for health workers makes more sense.

          You are making false equivalences comparing regularly tested vaccinated health professionals with unvaccinated members of the public who aren't regularly tested.

          Regular testing improves the the efficacy of the rapid testing ie 3 rapid tests reach an efficacy of 95%.

      • Julian Richards 4.1.2

        Virtuous data collection healthcare is exactly that, virtual.

        I recognise the value of data (the new gold standard), but seriously why is this simple test only for medical professionals in NZ? Why is the Ministry of Health only supplying to front line medical professionals and the non-jabbed general public flying/ferrying?

        It's bonkers, that such a simple preventative healthcare measure has been politicised and restricted.

        • Tricledrown 4.1.2.1

          The rapid antigen test is 35% less accurate over all than the PCR test and does pick up the first 3 days of asymptomatic infection.

          Given all health workers are vaccinated its just another layer of protection.

          • Julian Richards 4.1.2.1.1

            From the NZ Ministry of Health:

            "Rapid Antigen Tests are less sensitive than RT-PCR but have been shown to accurately identify mosti nfectious individuals".

            And maybe read this, two or three times so it sinks in, again from the NZ Ministry of Health:

            "Asymptomatic infection is the issue, not the vaccination status of the patient"

            • Tricledrown 4.1.2.1.1.1

              Julian you have snuck in a couple of untruths into your rebuttal.

              Rapid Antigen tests are 37% less accurate .

              They don't pick up the asymptomatic stages the first 3 days

              It's a quote from the health dept taken in isolation no scientific data with it.

              Vaccinated people are 80% less likely to transmit covid. So comparing the way heath authorities are regularly testing only vaccinated health workers all being vaccinated. To those who aren't vaccinated who are 80% more likely to pass on Covid especially with a test which has a 40% lower efficacy rate of picking up the virus and can't detect the first 3 days of infection.

              That's false equivalency by someone trying to undermine the health response.

              Who would I trust Ashley bloomfield or Seymour,Bridges,luxon.

              Your trying to get some traction by pedantic nit picking exactly why National are so low in the polls

              • Bill

                Vaccinated people are 80% less likely to transmit covid.

                Not true. And the peer reviewed scientific literature illustrates the falsehood of that assertion (I'll provide the link if you want)

              • Julian Richards

                Happy to go retrieve the links to the medical journals.

                Your 80% fact you proclaim is false and an non-truth (irony much).

                It is recognised worldwide (science/medical study link to come) that the protection offered by the vaccines wanes at approx 10-15% per month, fact.

                I qouted directly from the Ministry of Health own document supplied to medical professionals nationwide (that mainstream media refuses to report). Sorry if this is not acceptable to you.

                But please go into more detail (based on your facts, supply links) as to why this simple test is only being offered to asymptomatic 'vaccinated' medical professionals (business) across NZ and non-jabbed Individuals flying AIRNZ (businesses) etc. Shouldn't these tests be offered to all (general public) Asymptomatic individuals (vaxxed or not) nationwide in the controlled setting of a pharmacy? As the science is very clear now that the vaxxed will contract and transmit the virus, yes reduced symptoms, but the same viral loads. Why is this not available to all, just weird contradictory select groups (Asymptomatic vaxxed medical professionals and non-jabbed flyers?)?

                Again, quoting the NZ Ministry of Health: "Asymptomatic infection is the issue, not the vaccination status of the patient."

                "Developing a separate pathway for vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals will not prevent the risk of inadvertently seeing an infectious person (regardless of vaccination status)"

                ….. Hmmmm, opportunity passport anyone? I am vaccinated (not the angry slogan #antivax) but will not participate in this disgusting national disgrace! It is sick!!

                • Robert Guyton

                  So… the link..?

                  • julian richards

                    Cherry picked from the 'Lancet Medical Journal'

                    "The increase in infections and hospitalisations of vaccinated individuals likely stems from a combination of waning vaccine immunity over time…"

                    "Effectiveness against infections declined from 88% (95% CI 86–89) during the first month after full vaccination to 47% (43–51) after 5 months. Among sequenced infections, vaccine effectiveness against infections of the delta variant was high during the first month after full vaccination (93% [95% CI 85–97]) but declined to 53% [39–65] after 4 months. Effectiveness against other (non-delta) variants the first month after full vaccination was also high at 97% (95% CI 95–99), but waned to 67% (45–80) at 4–5 months."

                    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02249-2/fulltext

                    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2821%2902183-8/fulltext

                    Do some research (Medical Journals) Not the biblical media gods.

                    There's plenty more, but you can find this yourself, It's not difficult to remove the veil!

                    • Tricledrown

                      That's why those people with 2 doses are being offered another dose 6 months after there last dose and are looking at a quicker time if needed.

                      My wife has had her 3rd dose .

                      Ant vaxxers would rather have Covid because Vit d healthy lifestyle God or Billy tk will protect them.

                      Vaccines are more dangerous than Covid is anti vaxxers mantra.

                      So ant vaxxers use cherry picked data to placate themselves and baffle everyone else with bs.

                      NZ is heading to 95% vaccination of those eligible .

                      The 5% left say half can't get immunised so that leaves a very small minority who don't want to get vaccinated that's 2 1/2 % left, half of those have been scared off vaccination because of fear mongering by the psycphantic antivax fear mongering rhetoric of a very small very loud minority.

                      The Cook Islands a deeply religious country is at 96% why because they love their elders and children.

                • Tricledrown

                  Look at new scientist or Facebook antivax cherry picked facts and disinformation.

                  • julian richards

                    Don't have the 'Book of Faces'. Not my thing, but you're welcome to get your information from other more reputable sources…. The World Wide Web gives wonderful access (Use a better search engine than the NZ filtered Google) to many medical and scientific journals. Don't be afraid of what you may discover… Have the courage to go looking for what we're not being told in Mainstream media.

                • Bill

                  protection against infection (not peer reviewed)

                  Janssen
                  March '21, 92%
                  August '21, 3%

                  Moderna
                  March '21, 91%
                  August '21, 64%

                  Pfizer
                  March '21, 95%
                  August '21, 50%

                  https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.10.13.21264966v1

                  • julian richards

                    Yes…. And after two months? Four months? Six months? Booster!

                    Again, after two months? Four months? Six months? Booster!

                    Again, after two months? Four months? Six months? Booster!

                    Again, after two months? Four months? Six months? Booster!

                    Again, after two months? Four months? Six months? Booster!

                    And so on.

                    I'm not #antivax, I'm vaccinated, But I/we have a problem!

                    #opportunitypassports everyone, get in line for your new opportunity, booster.
                    How long is your opportunity passport valid again? Bing, injection time…. Ahhh, opportunity to do the things we all love, consume useless shit. Thank goodness for boosters!

                  • Tricledrown

                    Bill shifting the narrative every one knows that the vaccine wanes that why boosters are already being rolled out the over whelming majority aren't afraid of rolling up their sleeves .

                    They see the carnage that covid causes.

                    Long covid 40% of those who recover still suffering 6 months later.

                    Or if we follow the Trump states .

                    The Pandemic doesn't exist don't worry God will save you.

                    Trump states 7 people dying compared to democrat states where vaccination mask wearing lockdowns and isolation works only 1 death.

                    7 times more deadly.

                    I am greatlful 90% plus of my fellow NZers have been brave enough to roll up their sleeves.

  5. Ad 5

    Looking forward to some enterprising media wag doing a video cut of every time Mike Hosking/Kate Hawkesby/Luxon/John Key/Judith Collins said something like:

    "Open the gates!"

    "Run free!"

    "I need Bali now!"

    "Freedom for us!"

    "Kill MIQ now and trust all of us to simply stay home!"

    "The grandchildren over in London!"

    "Get me away from these poor people in New Zealand!"

    "Quarantine off South Auckland!"

    In the background you just show nurses running around and people weeping goodbye to a screen with the relatives, unsure if they'll live another day.

    In fact we could do another supercut of every time a mayor outside of Auckland said "Bring the Aucklanders and their money here!" followed by a collected choir of "Yes!" from the shopkeeper and hoteliers and an echoed "No!" from everyone else.

  6. Reality 6

    Open the Borders has been the constant refrain from National/Act for probably 18 months. Very easy to say, given they have had no responsibility to protect the health and well-being of the New Zealand people.

    Likewise the demands of business people who wanted to have everything open so they could make money, and had no concern for risks to public health. Some businesses may not have not survived, but does that compare to people who have lost their lives or been extremely ill with Covid and been unable to work or care for their family members.

  7. Robert Guyton 7

    At the antivaxxers' anti-mandate protest in Invercargill yesterday, one sign read,

    "Arrogant LIAR Comrade Taxinda MUST GO"

    • RedLogix 7.1

      Oddly enough my very apolitical daughter called her 'Taxinda' on our last phone call.

      Just for reference she and her partner are courier drivers – and during the five weeks before Christmas they start their day – as usual – at 4am and will work non-stop with barely time for toilet stops until 8 or 9pm. Six days a week.

      Whining layabouts they're not.

      • Robert Guyton 7.1.1

        Why, do you think, your industrious daughter called the PM, "Taxinda"?

        • Tricledrown 7.1.1.1

          Because self employed workaholics think they are better than those who have a work life balance.

          • weka 7.1.1.1.1

            I'd be asking who pays for the roads that the couriers make a living driving on.

            • RedLogix 7.1.1.1.1.1

              They pay road tax as with every other road user.

              • weka

                afaik RUCs and petrol tax don't cover the cost of the whole road transport network.

                • RedLogix

                  So what. The point is that despite working ridiculous hours they barely get ahead as do so many other New Zealanders.

                  And you seek to blame them for this. On a left wing blog FFS.

                  • weka

                    no, again, I will explain that what you are misinterpreting is not what I am actually saying.

                    If someone working hard believes that this government is taxing people too much, but their livelihood comes from tax funded services and infrastructure, then that's a political issue. Which is what I commented on.

                    If the point is that they work ridiculous hours and don't get ahead (not clear from the first comment), that's also a political issue.

                    If the solutions to that are to reduce tax, that's a right wing position.

                    The left would come up with different solutions, if we had an actual left. That leaves the Greens, who want to make it easier for people to buy EVs and create systems that are better for workers, but we would still need taxes to pay for that.

                    Whichever tax they find a burden (road or income), how do they propose that roading is paid for if not by tax? I mean a left wing govt would tax the uber wealthy and spread the load so that working people don't carry so much of it, but most of NZ doesn't want that.

                  • barry

                    So they should blame their employers for paying them shit wages.

                  • gsays

                    Hi Red, I hope not too personal question, your daughter and partner, are they self-employed/contractors or employees?

                    I ask, as John Campbell started making in-roads investigating this, pre-Covid, but it seems to have gone quiet.

                    Another good example of business contracting away, what should be, their responsibility (holidays, health insurance ACC etc).

                    At the same time, we have all gotten far more dependent on couriers, while ignoring the exploitative nature of the service.

                • Tricledrown

                  Courier drivers get poorly paid have to pay all their own insurance including public liability ,taxes etc then have to pay an accountant.vehicle maintenance and upgrade. All that adds up employers have found away to avoid all the soft infrastructure and hard infrastructure shift it on to the worker no holiday pay no sick leave no parental leave and so on.

                  So actually wages for couriers after all expenses paid is 5/8 ths of fuck all.

                  Fed express pay good wages and conditions provide the soft and hard infrastructure.

                  1 in 10 couriers make a reasonable income

          • Robert Guyton 7.1.1.1.2

            "Because self employed workaholics think they are better than those who have a work life balance."

            Elegant comment, Tricledown!

            I'm with you.

      • Ad 7.1.2

        I have in-laws in Rotary who refer to her as the "Tooth Fairy". I'm sure Luxon will get worse.

        And plenty of Aucklanders who think about tax wonder where Auckland's hypothecated regional fuel tax went.

        • Robert Guyton 7.1.2.1

          "The meaning of hypothecate is to pledge as security without delivery of title or possession."

          • Dennis Frank 7.1.2.1.1

            Clearly a meme that is evolving rapidly! Looks like it left your source in its wake some time back, leaping from one mental context to another, before finding a fertile ecosystem in Ad's mind…

        • Robert Guyton 7.1.2.2

          I don't think Luxon's detractors will be focused on his teeth…

      • Tricledrown 7.1.3

        That 16 hrs days times 6 is 96 hrs a week probably on minimum pay.

        No life no work life balance

        I can see the work harder not smarter leads to to much exhaustion to even think properly and is most likely breaking the frantic laws.

        I have always thought of working smarter not harder way. It pays way better and my weekends are longer than my working week and have been for a very long time.

        Why burn yourself out.

        What are people trying to achieve they will be have longterm health consequences .Humans aren't machines .

        This myth that the harder you work the better off you will be is a myth.

        Broken marriages dysfunctional families marriage break ups .I've been involved in business all of my life.

        Working smarter and a good work life balance is a must to succeed in all areas just focusing on work is modern slavery.

      • Pat 7.1.4

        A couple of my offspring call her “Jacinda” (not Taxcinda)…it appears to be a generational thing that has stuck…oddly they both voted for her , but there is obvious dissatisfaction.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 7.2

      Thanks – that quote will help to keep me voting left, if only to get the protester's goat!

      Taxinda” – when she’s ruled our the recommended CGT, and the Green’s wealth tax, on her watch. The growing affinity for self-delusion isn’t sustainable – reality is already checking our privilege.

      https://gameofprivilege.com/shop/reality-check-the-game-of-privilege/

      • Gezza 7.2.1

        That Auckland Regional Fuel Tax Scheme (brought in by Ardern’s government in 2018 & I believe still in place) collects an extra 10 cents per litre (plus GST) on sales of petrol and diesel within the boundaries of Auckland Council (excluding Aotea Great Barrier Island) from 1 July 2018 to 30 June 2028.

        Courier & all others who drive in Auckland, or who have to fill up there if they regularly come there from outside Auckland, will probably be bad-mouthing this government over that tax until it goes.

    • Bill 7.3

      Right wing messaging has been gifted an open lane on the information freeway Robert. Not a good thing in my book

      But do you think that might have something to do with a rise of tribalism across the broader and formerly activist left, meaning they've gone AWOL and embraced thoughtless compliance in line with tribal ideology?

      And do you think that can be preserved into the future by labeling any criticism of lock-downs and mandates as being somehow right wing or associated with the Brian Tamaki's of this world?

      The direction of flow on Covid is only one way – towards a sea of criticism and resistance, meaning that the tribal left that's made up of self identifying leftists runs the risk of being left high and dry…

      • Robert Guyton 7.3.1

        "do you think that might have something to do with a rise of tribalism across the broader and formerly activist left, meaning they've gone AWOL and embraced thoughtless compliance in line with tribal ideology?"

        Nope.

        Tribalism is a blunt response. The comments from the "activist left" has been as fractured, divaricated, and as finely-diced as you could ever have hoped-for – are you reading the responses here, Bill, with that possibility in mind?

  8. Reality 8

    On driving into Wellington city yesterday about 1pm, in torrential rain, I had no sympathy for the anti-vaxxer crowd getting very wet. Saw one rag-tag hanger on up Cuba Street waving a scruffy "no vax" sign. Not sure who he thought he was influencing.

    Many of the protesters from elsewhere were held up for a long time when the road north was blocked by a big slip. Oh dear, not the best day for them all in all. They experienced the inconvenience many Wellingtonians had to experience with bus and traffic disruption they caused.

  9. Bill 9

    The virus and the Omicron variant can never be taken for granted.

    Okay. But why then take vaccination as a protective measure against spread for granted? I mean, I guess the thinking is that a 90+% vaccination rate will somehow result in reducing and perhaps eventually eliminating Covid, yes?

    It won't. Look up Gibraltar (100% vaccination rate). Or Ireland (95%+ vaccination rate)

    The injections do not prevent spread outside of a small window that can be measured in weeks. They only protect an individual who might have gotten very ill from getting so ill. In other words, they are useful for very old people and those with other serious health conditions.

    For young healthy people, the risk of a serious adverse reaction from an injection of m-RNA far outweighs any risk they'd face from contracting Covid. And why would people who have taken a medicine that only confers a level of individual protection against illness insist that everyone takes it – especially when the data shows us that the vast majority of hospitalisations and deaths occur in the elderly and those with co-morbidities?

    Meanwhile, Omicron is very mild if South African data and health professionals are to be believed. And it just steps rightt around m-RNA.

    It hasn't overwhelmed the health system in South Africa. Presumably it confers natural immunity on anyone who catches it. Some might suggest it's 'a godsend'.

    What I'm curious about is why not one part of the so-called public health response has been targeted at treating people who contract Covid (afaik nothing before hospitalisation) and why there has been nothing broadcast on the simple measures a person might take with regards boosting their general health and immune system?

    • weka 9.1

      I guess the thinking is that a 90+% vaccination rate will somehow result in reducing and perhaps eventually eliminating Covid, yes?

      The covid vaccines prevents deaths, disability and hospital overrun. They appear to have helped reduce the rate of infection in Auckland. I don't think anyone is thinking the current vaccines will eliminate covid. This is why NZ has moved from the lockdown response to the traffic light one. We are in a holding pattern.

      Vaccines generally have been incredible successful at reducing and in some cases eliminating disease at the population level. Efficacy isn't taken for granted, it's established via clinical trials, and vaccine programme outcomes that are measured using known and reliable methods.

      Covid is a novel virus, there is a lot we don't know about it yet.

      When Europeans arrived in the Pacific, many Māori and Pasifika died because they had no natural immunity to the novel viruses. After that, the disruption to their lives from colonisation and being forced into poverty led to another set of health vulnerabilities.

      The arrival of vaccines in the 50s and 60s was a boon for Māori.

      If you want to look at how unreliable herd immunity is on the ground (as opposed to in theory), look at what happened in Samoa in 2019, how measles got there, and why so many babies and other children died (and a smaller number of adults).

      Public health is a complex mix of factors at the best of times. With covid, novel virus, no-one knows how this is going to play out. We do have some good indicators from the rest of the world of what happens when countries choose herd immunity/let it rip type responses before knowing whether that will actually work.

      • Bill 9.1.1

        I can't see why the assertion that m-RNA injections have reduced the rate of infection in Auckland when studies resulting in peer reviewed scientific literature reveal that the viral load of infected vaccinated people is the same as in infected and unvaccinated people.

        There is a small difference in susceptibility to infection, but only for a short period of time after injection (counted in weeks) because protection wanes very quickly.

        Lock-downs (and yes, I was in favour of the first one given the circumstances at that time) are generally brutal and futile attempts to reduce spread that inflicts severe damage on people at a societal level (eg – deterioration in mental health, retarded socialisation of toddlers and infants…) and unless people are kept in their houses until all traces of the virus have gone, then opening up just leads to a rebound in infection rates, whether or not the population has been 'vaccinated'.

        The so-called traffic light system is simply a way to dole out conditional freedoms. 12 years old and not vaccinated? Sorry – no public library, swimming pool…etc.

        And that will be extending down to 5 year olds in the New Year given the provisional approval to extend the administration of m-RNA injections to lower age groups. And the risk benefit analysis simply doesn't stack up when deciding whether children are at a higher risk from an m – RNA injection or from catching Covid.

        • weka 9.1.1.1

          I can't see why the assertion that m-RNA injections have reduced the rate of infection in Auckland when studies resulting in peer reviewed scientific literature reveal that the viral load of infected vaccinated people is the same as in infected and unvaccinated people.

          I said 'they appear to have helped reduce the rate of infection in Auckland'.

          I believe in terrain theories of illness (that the state of health of the person affects whether and how they become infected, as well as the virulence of the pathogen and in this case the efficacy of a vaccine). I doubt that viral load is the only factor that is in play in how covid is transmitted or the rate at which it spreads. I would consider environment to be a third factor, including season and climate. And all those things interact.

          I'd also like to know if the viral load in infected people (vax and unvaxxed) is always the same in every person, or if it's the same on average. This is why quotation and citation help advance discussion.

          How do you account for the drop in covid delta cases in Auckland?

          As for lockdowns being inherently more harmful than widespread covid transmission, I'd point to two things.

          Do we have anywhere that didn't use lockdowns and did let covid spread without much constraint? If not, then how would we know which is worse?

          Humans are incredibly adaptable. I don't see the lockdowns as being more harmful inherently, I see them being harmful where they overlap with other issues eg obviously someone in a high rise in a city is going to have a harder time than someone living in a rural area where it's easy to get out and walk. People with no internet vs people who have lots of entertainment at home. People with the resources to buy in what they need vs people with no money. And so on. Covid has shone a spotlight on the nature of many people's lives, the social inequities, and the values that we hold about what is important.

          I can tell you that many people where I live found the first lockdown a relief. We don't talk about it much, for a range of reasons, but there are ways to do this well. This ties into climate action and relocalising economies and what it's like to be reliant on one's neighbourhood rather than the global economy. So if we're going to talk about how the MoH should be more holistic, we should also talk about how our lives can be too.

          There are also a large number of people with disabilities who understand what being homebound is and have adapted. Lots of resource there.

          • Bill 9.1.1.1.1

            I agree that infection rates are impacted by multiple factors including those you mention. The study carried out in the UK was based on household infection rates from index cases that were not vaccinated and vaccinated – essentially a 'level playing field' as far as confounding factors go. The secondary attack rates (ie – those infected by the index case) were also a mix of vaccinated and not vaccinated.

            Here's the study. Peer reviewed and published in The Lancet

            https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00648-4/fulltext#seccestitle160

            Bearing in mind efficacy of vaccines quickly drops away from the ‘initial’ post injection 90% level…

            “Vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and accelerates viral clearance. Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts.”

            • Tricledrown 9.1.1.1.1.1

              Bill you claim its been peer reviewed yet your lancet article is only a ver small cohort of 239 people exposed to covid.

              Which doesn't meet the minimum number for any scientific peer review .

              No where in the article does it claim to be peer reviewed.

              And the study showed that the only place where close numbers of transmission between unvaccinated and vaccinated was in families stuck indoors.over winter.Which everyone knows increases spreading.

              No mention of sickness or hospitalizations rates between vaccinated or unvaxxed.

              Try again Rosemary Mcdonald put that piece up the other day.

              Desperation to undermine our health our successful control of Covid.

              Before you post it may pay to read the entirety of the lancet unpeeled reviewed research.1200 participants is the minimum number of participants for any peer review to be published.

              Hence the NZ longitudinal study .and why its so widely accepted because they had the correct numbers.Statistical analysis has worked out the algebra to sort FACT from Fiction.

              • RedLogix

                Which doesn't meet the minimum number for any scientific peer review .

                Where is that a rule? I do have some actual competency in statistics, both at Uni level and professionally and I'm interested to know that n must be larger than 1200 for any result to be valid.

                What seems more likely to me is that this is some arbitrarily large number that's being used to discredit clinical research from non-govt or non-pharma entities.

                • Tricledrown

                  The actual minimum number is 1035 as the mathematicians worked out over many years .I did university level papers in statistical mathematics.

                  But most scientific studies round it up to 1200 to allow for people falling out of the study and for easier calculations.

              • Bill

                No where in the article does it claim to be peer reviewed.

                You twat. If it's pre-print, then that's stated by journals like the Lancet that print peer reviewed literature. ffs

                • Tricledrown

                  CDC comparing vaccinated with unvaccinated vaccinated people much Less likely to contract covid in the first place,so therefore much less likely to pass it on.

                  While some vaccinated people are infected with covid most have lower viral loads and get well sooner so aren't spreading as much.

                  Then TheCDC looks at admissions to hospitals and deaths 96% of hospitalizations and deaths are from unvaccinated approximately the same as here. .

                  The 80% less likely is not a lie its what Ashly Bloomfield said given vaccinated people are much less likely to contract covid less likely to pass it on.

                • Tricledrown

                  You are right but in your previous comment you claim it is peer reviewed.

                  "Here's the study,peer reviewed "

          • Robert Guyton 9.1.1.1.2

            Well-put, weka.

          • Tricledrown 9.1.1.1.3

            "Here is the study peer reviewed and published in lancet"

            Your claim but no peer review in lancet.

            Then you called me what.

            Bill how about an apology for attacking my honesty.

            • Stuart Munro 9.1.1.1.3.1

              You'll wait a long time for one of those.

            • weka 9.1.1.1.3.2

              you replied to the wrong comment.

            • Bill 9.1.1.1.3.3

              What exactly is it you want an apology for? I didn't attack your honesty. I just don't have tolerance for your stupidity.

              The Lancet publishes peer reviewed literature. The study I linked is peer reviewed.

              • Tricledrown

                Read lancet article again it's only a pre print.Lancet says that this very small cohort can't be taken seriously and recommends a full trial.

                This article was put in so further research can be done on a scientific scale.

                • Bill

                  You're so full of shit son.

                  • Good response – abuse the person, not refute the statements!

                    • Stuart Munro

                      Be fair – it is too much to ask Bill for mature argument – he is incapable of it.

                    • Bill

                      There are statements of any merit? The guy just keeps repeating the same falsehood even after being furnished with explanations. How about you understand the context?

                      I linked to a peer reviewed article, and the silly twat simply doesn't understand what a peer reviewed article is, how a pre-print would be differentiated from a peer reviewed one, or evidently much of anything else he's on about – just read his comments with half a brain switched and you should see that clearly enough.

        • barry 9.1.1.2

          You are cherry picking a factoid.

          The evidence points to vaccines as being VERY effective at reducing infection, reducing severity of symptoms for those who do get infected, and reducing the likelihood of passing it on.

          In NZ practically every household contact has become infected if unvaccinated. The proportion of household contacts that get infected reduces with the increase in proportion that are vaccinated.

        • Tricledrown 9.1.1.3

          Bill you are spreading cynicism cherry picking it is the season.

          The viral load for vaccinated people is just one part of the story.

          Vaccinated people are less likely to become sick require hospital treatment or die 80% less likely to pass it on.

          Your are just playing on one cherry picked fact.

          Looking at countries like Gibraltar and Ireland.

          Gibraltar has one of the highest concentrations of populations on earth ideal transmission vectors.

          Ireland has had covid before vaccines were available so it has widely spread amongst the population 100's of thousands of vectors endemic in the population.

          NZ a hand full of vectors with very high immunizations.

          False equivalence.

          Anti vaxxers are having a field day Brian Tamaki will be proud he might have to shut his covid vaccination Station down that he operates at cult headquarters

          • Bill 9.1.1.3.1

            80% less likely to pass it on

            Yet another lie not congruent with the medical literature.

          • Rosemary McDonald 9.1.1.3.2

            Anti vaxxers are having a field day Brian Tamaki will be proud he might have to shut his covid vaccination Station down that he operates at cult headquarters

            Tricledrown. You really need to stop assuming that all of us who do not believe 100% in the absolute safety and efficacy of the Pfizer Product are acolytes of He of The Overinflated Ego…Brian 'Aren't I Just So Super Cool in my Shadze' Tamaki.

            We're not. Some of us think he's merely a dick. Some of us can't forget his rabble rousing sessions against gay marriage…he at least has desisted from screaming Enough is Enough!!! at these protests (other than the first one if memory serves). I do not think he is in any way shape or form a suitable person to front what is very important activism. I'm not convinced he runs his 'church' along democratic lines…a bit rich him demanding that from the State. I'd go so far as to say he is a liability. More of an asset to the status quo.

            • Bill 9.1.1.3.2.1

              lol – yup. If Tamaki didn't exist, the state and legacy media would create one 🙂

              • Tricledrown

                Yeah right politics 101 fringe politics populated by fringe lunatics.Anti vaxxers are fringe politicians.

                It's amazing how the Dirty Dozen can spread so much misinformation .

                Ex Dr Wakefield prosecuted and found to have made up false claims about the MMR vaccine .Struck off as a Doctor.

                He was found to have made up false data from Texas medical records in which 2 african Americans had serious adverse reactions to the MMR vaccine.

                What he didn't mention was these 2 boys were given both doses at once which were to be given 6 months apart ,by inexperienced nurses who claimed in the enquiry that because they were African Americans they wouldn't have come back for their second dose so gave them both doses at once.

                Wakefield used this to try and sue the vaccine manufacturer with a dodgy lawyer mate both were prosecuted for trying to defraud the vaccine manufacturer.

                Wakefield left the UK hooked up with another dodggy lawyer robt Kennedy Junior who specialises ant vax propaganda .

        • Craig H 9.1.1.4

          Pfizer (and other vaccines) reduce the rates of getting infected in the first place, and vaccinated people are infectious for less time, which is why MIQ is shorter for vaccinated travellers.

          Agree that secondary attack rates are harder to get a handle on, although the Ministry of Health thinks there is some evidence of a reduction there as well in NZ case data (nothing published that I can link to, came up as an answer to a question at a press conference).

          • Bill 9.1.1.4.1

            nothing published that I can link to..

            Here's the study published in the Lancet again…that includes SAR in instances of vaccinated index cases and unvaccinated idex cases

            https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00648-4/fulltext#seccestitle10

            • Tricledrown 9.1.1.4.1.1

              When you read the way the study was carried out it was only for I door setting with less than 1/5 of a minimum number required for it to be peer reviewed.

              It points out how limited the study is and recommends that the findings can't be reliable in every setting.

              Scientific studies need a minimum of 1200 as research over many years prove that smaller studies can't be accurate.

              That's why you find no peer reviewed studies with less than 1200 participants.

              • Bill

                You're still being a twat. Confidence levels – they're plastered throughout the paper.

                Link to this assertion you keep making about 1200 participants being required before a peer reviewed study can be produced/published.

                And when you can’t do that, tell me how many people were involved in the Pfizer study into the effects of their m-RNA injection on pregnancy.

                • Tricledrown

                  The actual minimum level is 1035 but most researchers round up to 1200 for simplicity .

                  The Pfizer research fell short of the 1035 by only 30 but because 40 % of ICU beds were being occupied beds were pregnant women suffering severe complications and deaths and the babies suffering complications and death.using vast numbers of specialists and equipment. For young mothers who are normally not dying in the same numbers as pregnant women.

                  Emergency ratification was given after looking at 1000 pregnant women after stage1/2_3 testing which only mRNA vaccines can be done in that quick in time.

                  • Tricledrown

                    Thank god we have people who are prepared to put others ahead of themselves to help develop highly effective vaccines.

                    While the anti vaxxers push out tons of misinformation for their pathetic egos.

                  • Bill

                    Pfizer didn't do a study of the effects on pregnancy before their m-RNA was rolled out.

                    Link to a source for this bullshit numbers malarkey you keep jerking on, there's a good lad.

                    • Tricledrown

                      I haven't abused you it just shows how desperate you are to push the antvax agenda.

                      I can't link but I googled Pfizer covid research on pregnant women and 458 women in one study 560 in another bravely volunteered to trial the vaccine.

                      The trials followed stage 1 2 and the 3rd stage as with all other approved vaccines.

                    • Tricledrown

                      That's true but Pfizer did do a study on pregnant women .4,000 pregnant women volunteered it took 10 months it passed all phases of the trials.

                      But you can't be reasonable attacking me personally rather than putting up facts and arguing with reason rather than nasty comments

                    • Bill

                      First point. I'm not anti-vaccination.

                      Second point. The post emergency authorisation study launched by Pfizer was never completed.

            • Craig H 9.1.1.4.1.2

              I've read that one, but here's another study published in Lancet.

              There was a significantly lower acquisition risk for fully vaccinated than unvaccinated contacts exposed to the Delta variant (Relative risk [RR] 0.44, 95%BCI 0.24–0.67; i.e. vaccine effectiveness against acquisition of 56.4% [95%BCI 32.6–75.8%]) (Table 2). The vaccine effectiveness was effectively unchanged when we repeated the bootstrapping adjusting for age of the index case (vaccine effectiveness [VE] 61.6, 95%CI 37.5–80.4). Complete vaccination was associated with reduced risk of symptomatic disease (VE 64.1%, 95%BCI 37.8–85.4%; or VE 67.9%, 95%BCI 41.3–87.8 after adjustment). No fully vaccinated contacts developed severe illness; 2.3% (95%BCI 1.1–3.6%) of those unvaccinated did .

    • weka 9.2

      What I'm curious about is why not one part of the so-called public health response has been targeted at treating people who contract Covid (afaik nothing before hospitalisation) and why there has been nothing broadcast on the simple measures a person might take with regards boosting their general health and immune system?

      The MoH is a conventional organisation with responsibility for public health. There are several things going on.

      1. they have little respect for or body of knowledge upon which to use diet, supplements, lifestyle factors to respond to a pandemic. I'd like that to change, because it would bring multiple benefits beyond covid, but they're not actually equipped to do that any more than most GPs are at this time. Individual GPs can educate themselves and develop that in their practice, but the MoH is about collective health and is a large organisation, and you can't just split off a few people here and there to expore and develop practice.
      2. one of the reasons for that is that the MoH has a particular internal culture. You can't just magic that culture to change. I have no idea how it would change, I think you would need key progressive people in the department and MPs in government, and I just don't see any of that on the horizon. The Greens would be the closest in terms of having an understanding and appreciation of such health promotion, pity we didn't give them more power in government in decent decades
      3. the MoH has a particular responsibility towards Māori, which it doesn't attend to very well. I can't see how it could at this time navigate that and change it's internal culture.
      4. the health system is struggling under decades of neoliberalism. I see much of the decisions being made as part normal culture for MoH, and part watching what has happened overseas and trying to prevent the same shit show here. Think traumatised staff and loss of staff and how one would keep a health system functioning under those conditions.
      • Bill 9.2.1

        Simple messaging on Vit D – known to be beneficial in cases of upper respiratory tract infection would at least be something. And since the darker your skin, the less Vit D you produce and large swathes of the population are deficient in Vit D – available on prescription….(though in a less than ideal format)

        I hear what you're saying about the culture, but afaik, there is no attempt to treat patients (people infected with Covid) before and unless they wind up in hospital. Which, I'd think, simply does not happen with respect to other ailments/infections/diseases.

        • weka 9.2.1.1

          I hear what you're saying about the culture, but afaik, there is no attempt to treat patients (people infected with Covid) before and unless they wind up in hospital. Which, I'd think, simply does not happen with respect to other ailments/infections/diseases.

          Don't think that's true. People that are told to stay home with covid still have access to their GPs, which is where the health system directs people at home with respiratory infections.

          Vit D supplementation is being studied, but there's still a lot of contention about its use in prevention. Conventional organisations like the MoH aren't going to adopt a new treatment in the middle of a pandemic without a pretty solid evidence base of its effect with covid (the reasons for this are obvious I think).

          You don't need a prescription to get Vitamin D. Testing is an issue which I think should be sorted, and have said that covid was an opportunity for the MoH to allow testing to be widespread. But I can also see why they wouldn't. Resources, and how would you collect and collate data in NZ on that?

          • Bill 9.2.1.1.1

            What medical treatments are being given to people with Covid infection before they land up in hospital?

            Vit D isn’t a prevention. No-one has ever said it is. It’s a therapeutic.

            The fact it’s available on script, means it’s cheaper for people with no spare coin. And Vit D levels can be checked alongside other markers in routine blood checks. But hell. Assume deficiency, and you won’t be doing yourself any harm.

            • Tricledrown 9.2.1.1.1.1

              Very few people have Vitamin D deficiency it's not a problem in NZ the artic circle is where it is a problem.

              The VitD bs is just another red herring thrown out by anti vaxxers

              • RedLogix

                Very few people have Vitamin D deficiency

                Really? That's the precise opposite of virtually everything I've read on the topic. Do you need to be shown how to use a search engine?

                Vitamin D deficiency is a common condition that affects a significant number of Australians.

                • Tricledrown

                  I met and followed Dr Shepherds research at Otago University on bone density in NZ.

                  Her research found virtually no vit D deficiency but in older people confined to care facilities she found lower levels but not bad enough to change diet other than encouraging older people to drink milk regularly.

                  What she did find was lack of load bearing exercise and balance problems through lack of strength in older people's legs.

                  Helen Clark made a Nation wide comment on the findings circa 2003. Recommending people should do more weight bearing exercise as they got older.Helen pointed out that her mountain climbing and cross country skiing kept her in good shape.

                  • Rosemary McDonald

                    https://www.auckland.ac.nz/en/news/2021/06/01/robert-scragg-drills-into-data-vitamin-D.html

                    and an earlier work…

                    Burden of disease associatedwith low Vitamin D status in NZ

                    (Hint it's not all about bone density ffs.)

                    I'll look forward to the apology.

                    • Tricledrown

                      Read what professor Scragg says in your link the you can apologise.

                      Professor Scragg says the only results he has found with vit D deficiency is bone density loss and muscular problemscan be reduced by taking supplements.

                      Professor Scragg also claims there are no studies anywhere that prove increasing vit d can improve any other outcomes. He says ghe jury is out as yet.

                      Very similar results to Dr shepherd's research.

                      Apology accepted

                    • Rosemary McDonald

                      You clearly didn't read Scraggs paper from the NIWA site…I linked to it.

                    • Tricledrownm

                      Now after reading burden Professor Scragg concludes while research has proven a link between increased vitamin D combined with calcium reduces fractures.Their is no proof of other morbidities and that's what he wants to research .

                    • Tricledrown

                      Read the burden Professor Scragg said there is proof that Vitamin D and Calcium can improve bone density but as yet no proof that increasing Vitamin D intake will improve health outcomes and he wants to do that research.

                      But many others have done so since the 1930's and no one has found anything other than bone density and maybe depression.

                      Professor Brian Cox is mentioned in his peer association I have known Brian for over 40 years I will ask how Professor Scraggs research is going.

                    • weka

                      Their is no proof of other morbidities and that's what he wants to research .

                      I think what you mean is that in his study he didn't find any evidence of other morbidities associated with low Vit D.

            • weka 9.2.1.1.1.2

              Vitamin D is a preventative for many illnesses, higher vitamin D levels are associated with better immunity. I don't know what research has been done on covid for either prevention or treatment.

              What medical treatments are being given to people with Covid infection before they land up in hospital?

              No idea, you can probably look that up. Pretty standard symptom management I would guess.

              • Bill

                You wrote that – "People that are told to stay home with covid still have access to their GPs,…"

                My point being, that means nothing if no therapeutic treatments are available. You say you guess there must be something, and that I can look it up. There's nothing to look up. Beyond a paracetamol for high fever (which is a questionable source of action) it would appear people are instructed to sit at home and simply wait see and hope.

                That's not medical care as I've come to understand it.

                  • weka

                    thanks Joe, those are great resources.

                  • Bill

                    lol – there's no treatment there! It would paraphrase as "Fuck off and don't die" and "Come back if your lips turn blue".

                    • joe90

                      If the pretty much universal home care protocol of watch and wait ain't good enough for you, then WTF do you want?

                    • weka

                      It would paraphrase as "Fuck off and don't die" and "Come back if your lips turn blue".

                      Funnily enough, I've spent most of my time on covid stuff in the past two years listening to medical people, so I don't have the same dismissive hubris as your comment suggests. If/when I get covid, I will be grateful for any advice that comes from people who are trained in medical science and who care about both my wellbeing and the wellbeing of the systems that many people depend upon, and who have access to the large body of developing knowledge around dealing with covid at home. I will always be immensely grateful that NZ got to trail behind the rest of the world and can thus laern from their mistakes and successes.

                      There's a wide distance between doctors developing a substantial protocol for managing a novel illness in a novel setting, and 'fuck off and don't die'.

                      Like Joe, I'm wondering what you want? Ivermectin? I'm sure you can get the advice you need online.

                    • Bill

                      I read through Joe's links.

                      It's guidance around assessment. There is nothing about treatment. There's a couple of lines cautioning against some treatments.

                      It really is "Fuck off and don't die and if your lips turn blue, pick up the phone, because we're contactless"

                    • weka

                      you still haven't said what you want.

                  • Rosemary McDonald

                    That'll be for the vaccinated only, joe90?

                    No medical treatment for the "fucking filth".

                • Tricledrown

                  Doctors are doing remote clinics .

                  Doctors know how dangerous their job is.

        • Poission 9.2.1.2

          The effects of vitamin d for health is used as an explanation for the Scot's Paradox.

          Sun exposure and the vitamin D levels of populations are risk factors that contribute to mortality and most likely to national differences in incidence of disease but, hitherto, they have not been widely considered in attempting to explain these national paradoxes. In this article, it is suggested that variation in sun exposure and hence in vitamin D sufficiency play an important part in explaining five such paradoxes. The suggestion is illustrated by detailed consideration of the Scots' paradox (7). Simply stated, this paradox, also known as the ‘Scottish Effect’ (8), tells us that the mortality of Scots is higher than that of the English across all social classes even though many aspects of culture, environment and health provision are the same.

          In a bold attempt to account for the Scots' paradox, 17 different hypotheses have been considered by the Glasgow Centre for Population Health (GCPH) (9). Hypotheses considered include social alienation, deindustrialization, sectarianism and limited social mobility. The 17th and last hypothesis, a variation of the UVB–vitamin D hypothesis, is the suggestion by the present author that Scotland's northern location and cloudy maritime climate provide little sunlight and hence Scots are at risk of having low serum levels of vitamin D (10). It is suggested that this in turn causes an increased risk of serious disease, so accounting for Scotland's relatively high mortality

          https://ar.iiarjournals.org/content/32/1/237

          • Bill 9.2.1.2.1

            That's putting a big burden for many health outcomes on a single vitamin!

            All I know is that as a kid, Vit D in the form of cod liver oil every winter might be why I didn't get rickets and is probably why I can't stand the taste of seafood 🙂

            That, and rickets aside, it's known to act as an anti-inflammatory in the case of upper respiratory viral infection

            • Tricledrown 9.2.1.2.1.1

              We don't have any Vit D deficiencies in NZ.

              After WW2 when rationing was a problem cod liver oil was widely used but after the 1950's it largely disappeared as sciencetific research showed in sunny climates it was virtually non existent.

              New research done in Sweden and at Otago University proved that to be the case.

              But the Swedish study showed that over use of codliver oil as a supplement had a reverse effect of weakening bones causing them to become fragile.

              Milk butter yoghurt and even margarine are high in vit D.

              You need sunshine for the body to absorb vitamin D also animal fats are far more efficient for your body to absorb vit D.

              • Bill

                We don't have any Vit D deficiencies in NZ

                Good god. Then the prescriptions people in NZ are given for vit D deficiency are….why?

                • joe90

                  ….why?

                  But doc, my D's are low.

                  /

                  The final word

                  It has become clearer since 2011 that the proportion of the population who are likely to benefit from vitamin D supplementation is relatively small and restricted to frail older patients and those at risk of deficiency. The prescribing of vitamin D to nearly one-quarter of a million people in New Zealand therefore may not be justified. When discussing new or ongoing supplementation with patients who do not have a clear indication for treatment, an evidence-based conversation about the likelihood of benefit may be helpful.

                  https://bpac.org.nz/BPJ/2016/July/supplementation.aspx

              • weka

                We don't have any Vit D deficiencies in NZ.

                Sure we do eg elderly people confined to their beds.

                • RedLogix

                  It all hinges of what you define as 'deficient'. It seems very clear to me the NZ medical establishment means 'just enough to stop rickets, but nowhere near enough for people to be healthy'.

                  But VitD is associated with a huge range of diseases and disorders, and the optimum level required to address them is much higher.

                • Robert Guyton

                  Very specific "tribe", weka.

                • Bill

                  Red haired/fair skinned people (can't synthesise if sun burned), indoor workers…actually, that kind of about covers off most people.

                  As Red has pointed out below, humans who still live an outdoors life in the tropics/sub-tropics – our biological home and environment as it were – have Vit D levels of around 120ng/ml.

                  NZ recommendation Consensus Statement on Vitamin D and Sun Exposure in New Zealand is for anywhere between 25 and 50nmol/L – which is only up to about 20ng/ml

                  And yet some 20 odd percent of people in NZ are deemed to be deficient.

                  • Bill

                    Apologies. That wasn't quite right. I was misremembering – (from the "consensus paper")

                    An analysis of vitamin D data taken from the 2008/09 New Zealand Adult Nutrition Survey (15 years and older) (Ministry of Health, 2012) showed that 5 percent of people were deficient (less than 25 nmol/L). A further 27 percent had levels between 25 and 50 nmol/L.

                    • weka

                      Not to worry, I generally don't bother with random numbers people throw out without references where I can see the context.

                    • Bill

                      The reference was written down Weka. I'd even been kind enough to calculate the conversion of the units so they were easier to understand/compare.

                      But if you don't want to get a grasp on things, that's your business.

                    • weka

                      But if you don't want to get a grasp on things, that's your business.

                      That's stupid. I already have a pretty good grasp of the Vit D issues, from before Covid.

                      The reference was written down

                      Written down where?

                      The only reference I can see to the tropics is what you've said. You're making lots of claims, it's not unreasonable to want references to do with them. Lots of people are making claims around covid, huge numbers of people and claims, there has to be come kind of referencing to see context and to fact check.

                  • weka

                    And yet some 20 odd percent of people in NZ are deemed to be deficient.

                    According to who?

                    I'm aware of the issues around vitamin D. As we know it's to do with the reference range and where it should sit for normal. How is that being determined? How should it be determined?

                    The MoH have a conservative reference range, based on older research. There is newer research but it's controversial, which is why the MoH hasn't adopted it yet.

                    It's also connected with diet. The reason that people at far Northern latitudes have adequate vit D despite being mostly clothed most of the time is because they eat a large amount of foods with animal fat in them (vit D is fat soluble).

                    Why do humans need supplemental vitamin D? Is it because humans have always been deficient and now we can remedy that? Is it because we don't get enough sunshine? Don't eat the right foods? Wear too much sunscreen.

                    The Vitamin D Council has been very successful in shifting the debate on vitamin D, I know people that are utterly convinced that everyone should be supplementing on medium to high doses. I'm less convinced, but certainly welcome new research and encourage people who are at risk of covid to look at supplementing themselves.

                    • Bill

                      Why are you querying something I'd already corrected? Fact is, far more than 20 odd % of NZers are deficient if the target is to have Vit D levels at anything above bare minimum.

                      <i>The reason that people at far Northern latitudes have adequate vit D despite being mostly clothed most of the time is because they eat a large amount of foods with animal fat in them (vit D is fat soluble).</i>

                      Norway far enough north for you? The country that produced large amounts of cod liver oil for consumption in winter months because (among other things) rickets?

                      As both Red and I have pointed out, humans still living in the open around the equator/tropics have natural Vit D levels far in excess of what 'anyone' in NZ has.

                    • weka

                      Norway far enough north for you? The country that produced large amounts of cod liver oil for consumption in winter months because (among other things) rickets?

                      What are you on about? My reference to northern latitudes was around how people with lesser sun exposure got their Vit D.

                      The key issue I was pointing to is how do modern humans establish what the accurate reference range should be? I mentioned some of the factors that feed into that.

          • Tricledrown 9.2.1.2.2

            Reading through the study low levels of calcium in the water soft water lack of sunshine being 56° North cloud from the Atlantic etc.

            NZ has much higher sunshine levels even in Invercargill.

            The biggest danger is people not getting outside staying put in front of screens playing video games and eating junk food.

        • Tricledrown 9.2.1.3

          NZ has some of the highest levels of ultra violet light in the world we have some of the highest dairy and animal fat consumption as well.

          You are bonkers if you think that's going to prevent covid.

          • RedLogix 9.2.1.3.1

            NZ has some of the highest levels of ultra violet light in the world we have some of the highest dairy and animal fat consumption as well.

            Yes but since the 80's we've been trained by the medical profession to avoid sunshine at all costs. And avoid all those nasty dairy and animal fats as well. We spend much more time inside than our grandparents did.

            The NZ Medical authorities define 'deficiency' as just enough to prevent you from getting rickets – or what they describe as 'good bone health' which is around 20ng/ml. But that ignores the huge number of other roles this hormone plays and the amount need to reduce viral illness risk is understood to be around 50ng/mL.

            The functional medicine people are now firmly showing that level around 60-80ng/mL are optimum for good health, and the few peoples left on earth who still live a hunter-gatherer lifestyle test at higher than this again – as much as 120ng/ml. By these measures virtually everyone in the developed world can be described as sub-optimal.

            There is a huge amount of information out there and like everything else to do with diet and health, not a little controversy. The past decade has seen an explosion of research and a lot of fascinating, complex data I'm not going to burden this thread with. Suffice to say – you might want to update some of your assumptions here.

            • Robert Guyton 9.2.1.3.1.1

              "Yes but since the 80's we've been trained by the medical profession to avoid sunshine at all costs"

              But we don't 🙂

              • RedLogix

                The reality is that most people nowadays live and work inside most of the time. They only get into strong sunshine on a relatively few days a year and then run the risk of sunburn so they slap sunscreen on all their exposed skin. They are just not getting consistent exposure.

                There is so much information on this topic. A quick search pops up this one:

                Vitamin D deficiency is a major public health problem worldwide in all age groups, even in those residing in countries with low latitude, where it was generally assumed that UV radiation was adequate enough to prevent this deficiency, and in industrialized countries, where vitamin D fortification has been implemented now for years.

                Important – there are two different units used to report blood assays of VitD (ng/ML and nmol/mL) and the levels defined as 'deficiency' vary considerably from one authority to another:

                Levels used for vitamin D status

                There has been a long debate on the cutoff points for vitamin D status. The Institute of Medicine considers inadequate if 25(OH)D levels are <50 nmol/L (<20 ng/mL). However, many consider inadequate/insufficient if levels are <75 nmol/l (30 ng/mL). For the present analysis, the cutoff points used were: <30 nmol/l (12 ng/mL); <50 nmol/l (<20 ng/mL) and <75 nmol/l (30 ng/mL). When studies used different cut-off points, it was specified.

                And from my more recent reading, even 30ng/mL is way too low. So this document I'm referencing here is very conservative.

        • Robert Guyton 9.2.1.4

          Why isn't that information, "Simple messaging on Vit D – known to be beneficial in cases of upper respiratory tract infection…" well known in the "darker skin" populations, Bill?

  10. barry 10

    90% is not victory.

    • Ad 10.1

      90% + double vaccination and rising, plus near-lowest mortality and morbidity rates in the world, plus one of only 3 countries in the world to increase their average lifespan, plus implementation of multiple new public health systems, and a society completely intact after huge pressure ..

      is a Victory.

  11. Tricledrown 11

    Sorry but my posting name keeps refreshing to those extra figures even when I clean it up it comes back

  12. Tricledrown 12

    That 16 hrs days times 6 is 96 hrs a week probably on minimum pay.

    No life no work life balance

    I can see the work harder not smarter leads to to much exhaustion to even think properly and is most likely breaking the traffic laws.

    I have always thought of working smarter not harder way. It pays way better and my weekends are longer than my working week and have been for a very long time.

    Why burn yourself out.

    What are people trying to achieve they will be have longterm health consequences .Humans aren't machines .

    This myth that the harder you work the better off you will be is a myth.

    Broken marriages dysfunctional families marriage break ups .I've been involved in business all of my life.

    Working smarter and a good work life balance is a must to succeed in all areas just focusing on work is modern slavery.

  13. Pat 13

    I have purposely avoided this thread today because its largely a fait accompli….but it occurred to me that many who were happy to receive the vaccine regime for whatever reason may be reluctant to impose it on their young offspring….I apologise in advance if this point has already been raised as Im too lazy to trawl through all the comments.

  14. Rosemary McDonald 14

    I'm going to put this here...sent to me by a friend who knows I'm seriously concerned about the rates of myo and pericarditis associated with the mRNA vaccines.

    It would appear that Bloomfield and Assoc are also a mite worried.

    I can't copy and paste a quote, but it seems that the messaging about the possibility of vaccine induced myocarditis and pericarditis has not been explicit. Timely medical intervention is crucial and the symptoms to be aware of are clearly laid out.

    There is also an acknowledgement that there is under reporting of incidences.

    About fucking time…but way too late.

    IMHO

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 14.1

      I notice the linked article refers to the Pfizer vaccine as the "Pfizer Substance". And to Jacinda Ardern as the "psychopathic Dear Leader". So a dodgy information source.

      The headline of the piece, "Bloomfield finally admits myocarditis and pericarditis result from the Pfizer substance" is utterly misleading. If this is typical of your information sources Rosemary, I would not be surprised if you had an unbalanced view of the risks around the vaccine and covid19.

      Meanwhile in the real world, Bloomfield was open about the issue at least as early as July 2021, and Medsafe was warning people in June 2021 (which of course Bloomfield would have been aware of), which was when the FDA said they would attach a warning to the Pfizer vaccine re mycarditis.

      The MoH letter reminds doctors and vaccinators to emphasise the need to seek medical help if vaccine recipients experience heart symptoms – it seems this advice was not emphasised enough in the recent Dunedin case, where it seems very likely a young man died of vaccine-induced myocarditis (and who had symptoms for almost a fortnight before his death – so likely could have been saved had he known to seek medical help). In fact the letter looks like a very open and sound response to the recent death and introduces a range of measures to reduce this risk in future.

      It seems 2 people have likely died of vaccine-induced myocarditis in NZ now, from around 8 million doses.

      "To date, the observed number of deaths reported after vaccination is actually less than the expected number of natural deaths."

      • Robert Guyton 14.1.1

        That's a well-reasoned response, Uncooked.

      • Rosemary McDonald 14.1.2

        That is not a site I visit. As I clearly stated, a friend sent me the link. I tried to find an alternate source for the letter…but could not.

        So no. It is not typical of my sources.

        Unbalanced view? Notwithstanding the 30,000 plus reports to Medsafe about the side effects of the Pfizer Product…(and no, it is not a vaccine by traditional definitions. I am rebelling against these new definitions…find another word to describe what it is, don't merely change the long standing meaning.) I have spoken with people, some family, who had suffered quite extreme adverse reactions.

        Searching the wider internet for information on some of their symptoms I discovered there is a considerable community out there in the world who are suffering debilitating effects months after being injected. There is a body of knowledge out there which is backed up by a considerable body of academic study that barely gets past the pre-print stage.

        It was August when the MOH website issued an advisory on myocarditis and pericarditis, but unfortunately in the drive to get as many needles into arms as possible proper 'informed consent' was not as common as it ought to have been I see weka has spoken of her experience. This latest missive from Bloomfield and co has a definite urgent tone to it, don't you think?

        There would be no need for such a letter had the initial messaging been suitably emphatic.

        Rory Nairn's fiance spoke at the rally in Wellington on Thursday and her telling the world about the Coroner's report could not be ignored. There is another speaker, in Tauranga I believe, who tells the story of her late sister…sent away from the hospital only to die with lungs full of bloodclots at home. Just because MSM is not reporting these does not mean they are not real.

        You do understand that MSM cannot be trusted?

        The reported deaths are 117. All along Medsafe has insisted these deaths have nothing to do with the Pfizer Product. Other than one. I guess they'll have to shift one more over to the confirmed column.

        There is a 'citizens' list of deaths that is over 300.

        Where lies the truth?

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 14.2

      And as for the comments below the article on Rosemary's linked site!

      Of course, Bloomfield is finally admitting this as he will want some clemency in the future.

      Every time I have the back luck to see this creature, he looks like he’s about to mount the scaffold, and he is looking worse and worse.

      No mercy for any of them when the time comes they are forcing that crap on every one and peoples lives and business have been lost they had no empathy for the people of NZ so no mercy Hope they get what’s coming to them.

      Public flogging first, then hung by the neck and be left to rot, so this never happens again.

      • Rosemary McDonald 14.2.1

        I repeat. I do not visit that site and I did not read the comments. I merely wanted a copy of the letter.

        And if a site can be judged by the comments …TS would be struggling at times to maintain credibility.

        The moderators do an outstanding job most of the time…but it is at times baffling to understand why some comments cop a ban and others not.

    • Molly 14.3

      I appreciate the link to the very recent letter, and agree about the tone.

      As for the source, its MoH.

      You didn't refer to the blog post or comments, or the website apart from saying that it contained a copy of the letter.

      As of now, the media and news page for MoH has not been updated to give this information, and you would expect that to be the case.

  15. Tricledrown 15

    Looking at the post it says that providers aren't following up in a timely manner.

    Which is valid. And to watch out more carefully as it effects certain age groups worse than others.

    Compared to Covid it is much safer of course there are going to be mistakes.

    This is the first time we have had to face a global pandemic the biggest disaster since WW2. So far we have lost less than 50.

    The UK figures 1500 deaths per million NZ 10 per million.

    Keep your chin up Rosemary the first honest post you have put up today .

    Stop calling yourself the fn filth would be a step in the right direction. Self denigration to gain sympathy is pathetic.

  16. peter sim 16

    Karl Popper would likely be incensed at you using his name in this context "discussion"

    Scientifcally established "facts" are always debatable..

  17. newsense 17

    Such a callous dismissal of the concerns of the diaspora is not a good way to go.
    If you’re a NZ citizen essentially unable to enter your own country for two Christmases and now what looks like a much more indefinite time period, you’re not going to forget being shut out and being told to go suck it.

  18. Tricledrown 18

    Newsense during WW2 no one complained everyone worked to beat the enemy.

    Today's generations all want everything now this epidemic could end up being a lot worse for NZ. The UK 1500 per million deaths NZ 10 deaths per million.

    Everyone has to sacrifice something some more than others.Your life so somebody can travel.

    • peter sim 18.1

      Thank you. The WW2 reference is very appropriate. This country is facing a viral blitzkreig. The never ending whinging and whining about the discomforts being suffered are tediously boring.

      The selfish never give a …. about any one else..

      • newsense 18.1.1

        Okay. Tosser alert.
        Check the polls. One reason is too many tossers writing off sections of the political centre because they’re being affected and have reasonable grievances.
        The polls aren’t bad, but as they say the direction of travel has been less than ideal.
        Part of the reason is media boredom- anti-vaxxers give tastier quotes than kids or immuno-compromised. But another part is dickheads patronising people who’ve been more affected by the pandemic than they have, whether that’s small to medium business owners or the diaspora.

        Also WWII as a cultural reference point is rather waning in it’s usefulness. I doubt anyone commenting regularly here was in active service. Also perhaps looking at the left’s initial attitude to conscription of sacrifice could inform some of your attitudes? Or are you trolls? Hard to figure out.

        In any case compassion and kindness used to be the mantras- for other kiwis and just others in general.

  19. UncookedSelachimorpha 19

    90% double-vaxxed is a great achievement! While I wish Labour would do a lot better on a lot of fronts, they have done a good job with Covid.

    I'm not racist anti-vax! Some of my best friends are whatever vaccinated!

    But

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