When the levee breaks…

Written By: - Date published: 1:07 pm, September 20th, 2016 - 99 comments
Categories: climate change, global warming, Media, science - Tags: , , ,

During the week someone alerted me to Rod Oram being interviewed by Lynn Freedman on National Radio. One particular moment jumped out as Rod went silent and seemed to wrestle with what he was about to say.

It immediately brought to mind a piece I read in The Guardian a few weeks ago, maybe a month back,

I’ll come back to Rod Oram, but first to the Guardian. They print heaps of reports and articles on global warming. Common to all those reports and articles, dire as much of the information they contain might be, is an underlying assumption that things will be okay. This headline from an August article kind of captures what I mean. – Australia will need to remove CO2 from air to keep warming below 2C, climate body says (sub-head) Climate Institute report says negative-emissions technology is imperative because risks of global temperature reaching 2C are ‘unmanageable’

So, you get that? There’s no questioning the feasibility of negative emission technologies – just a call for them to be applied.

Go through article after article and the same refrain comes up over and over again. Things are really bad, but we’ll be okay – we have the technology.

But then there was this one where, for the first time to my knowledge, a Guardian article cast serious doubt on the feasibility of negative emissions technologies. Of note, and unlike other pieces, they were providing direct quotes from scientists throughout this one.

But what form that (negative emissions) technology takes is unclear. Several techniques have been proposed. One includes spreading crushed silicate rocks, which absorb carbon dioxide, over vast tracts of land. Another involves seeding oceans with iron to increase their uptake of carbon dioxide. Most are considered unworkable at present – with the exception of bioenergy with carbon capture and storage. Under this scheme, vast plantations of trees and bushes would be created, their wood burned for energy while the carbon dioxide emitted was liquefied and stored underground.

“It could do the trick,” said Cambridge University climate expert Professor Peter Wadhams. “The trouble is that you would need to cover so much land with plants for combustion you would not have enough space to grow food or provide homes for Earth’s wildlife. In the end, I think we just have to hope that some kind of extraction technology, as yet unimagined by scientists, is developed in the next couple of decades. If not, we are in real trouble.”

I don’t pour over the Guardian’s environmental section and so don’t know if that piece was a one off. But I seriously hope it’s not; that it’s the beginning of more realistic reporting.

Back to Rod Oram. The following attempt at a transcript is from 11:08 on this pod cast link.

“There are things we can do. There are things we can do right now and try and um help encourage people and um bring people together who do relate to these issues so we can make these extraordinary leaps that we have to do. Em otherwise, um , well quite frankly um we, well civilisation as we know it is..is not just at risk, I mean, the trajectory we’re on um is to see em em (long pause before he rushed out) I’m thinking really hard about saying this, I’ve never actually said it before – about the collapse of civilisation as we know it…

Now I know some people will accuse me of desperately casting around seeking something positive to cling to; of seeing things that aren’t there. And maybe I am guilty of that. But if liberal commentary is now beginning to acknowledge that we’re out of our depth and beyond the limits of our ‘god given’ prowess and cunning, and if that’s going to presage a call for action based on a realistic assessment of our situation, then I’ll take it.

The levee might not be gushing forth, but any slow seepage is a start.

99 comments on “When the levee breaks…”

  1. Sabine 1

    just because

  2. Colonial Viper 2

    I thought we still had carbon budget that we can still burn through and which still gives us some chance of avoiding 2 deg C.

    (To clarify, my stance is that we blew past an inevitable 2 deg C in the late 1980s, or 1990s)

    • Bill 2.1

      Don’t pull this shit CV.

      The post is about the commentary from liberal media and a possible shift (or the beginnings of a shift) in how they couch their reporting on global warming.

      • Colonial Viper 2.1.1

        So we’re marking the fact that the liberal media might possibly be shifting their coverage on climate change to being a bit more accepting of the fact that we are ‘out of our depth’ and ‘beyond the limits of our technological prowess’?

        OK I guess that’s something which might have potentially positive implications in the future.

        • Garibaldi 2.1.1.1

          “Out of our depth” and “beyond the limits of our technical prowess”. These are the very things you have been so capably posting on for ages CV. Liberal media have , imo, already pointed out that we are in unknown territory re cc and that there is no sign of feasible technological solutions ( and unlikely to be) .
          I think the human animal is simply too slow to comprehend the extent of the damage done and the consequences we are about to face. Our greed is our undoing.

          • Colonial Viper 2.1.1.1.1

            We can get it. Individuals have. But as a collective mass, turning a blind eye (and then justifying why doing so is sensible/necessary) is a speciality of modern humans.

            • greywarshark 2.1.1.1.1.1

              CV
              You have nailed what I have just recently personally realised. We are not rational animals, we are rationalising ones. Bill you have been watching this and I hope you are right that the tide is turning. So many people are caught up in the present local difficulty they face and that is understandable as the wealthy and ambitious/aspirational (obssessed with possessions and status, or greedy) have desired to keep more and more of what they receive, and don’t have the grace to even thank God for it.

              The neo liberals have been wrecking our country, our resilience, and our resources at the same time as we should have been making moves to combat and also prepare for the changes coming. It demands from those of us who have seen this, and tried to hold, improve, think creatively, protest, sacrifice money and time from our lives to stand up to, in the Courts, the polling places, the streets, the media but virtually to deaf ears and to be made the butt of jokes, well it demands a Christ-like magnaminity ‘Forgive them..they know not what they do’.

              To resent, be angered, punish them eventually will be wasted energy, and they will probably be our family, our neighbours, good people but not prone to reflection, embedded propaganda from childhood drives them
              along the ‘right’ tracks.

              We are a sports loving country though, so if we can get sportspeople on board sometime soon, we will have powerful, trained, committed people working together for good. Perhaps that’s where the crux of the push-back will come from to make an impact on the dozy buggers and teetering high-heelers that spend their days, looking after their physical selves, women dyeing and dieting, men growing their necks and stomachs – the comfortable observers and mercenaries of the financial and business community.

    • Richard Rawshark 2.2

      Stance or side, open to review is it?

      In that I don’t think anything is set in stone except the speed of light, and that actually changes depending on the medium it’s travelling through so meh.., if you get what I mean,

      Proper scientific research with masses of funding, could produce a viable carbon scrubber maybe. Though it certainly won’t happen under our current planets leadership and ties to industry.

      With almost an approaching cataclysmic urgency this planet needs to act, as the signs of mass climate upheaval are well and truly showing from starving polar bears to storms like the recent one that was a record setting force cyclone, but I fear fuck all will happen, and the planet will turn decidedly pear shaped and well into oblivion before they start making an effort in earnest.

      We are screwed CV I got maybe 50 years left, probably 20 in reality.., good luck people.

      You know why we are screwed because we all have to work to survive do you understand what I mean? .., changing the planets fuels, eco friendly products and everything else required to fix the problem, will cause so much trouble, drive so many businesses like those connected to the oil industry in some way under, I don’t think it can’t be done by the present leaders. None of them have the guts to say what’s happening why, what the causes are and what we all have to stop doing if we want our future generations to have a planet to live on that’s healthy.

  3. CnrJoe 3

    Well I clearly heard the catch in Rods delivery…

    and then there’s this

    “The estimate of 40 years for climate lag, the time between the cause (increased greenhouse gas emissions) and the effect (increased temperatures), has profound negative consequences for humanity…….

    With 40 years between cause and effect, it means that average temperatures of the last decade are a result of what we were thoughtlessly putting into the air in the 1960’s. It also means that the true impact of our emissions over the last decade will not be felt until the 2040’s”.

    http://www.skepticalscience.com/Climate-Change-The-40-Year-Delay-Between-Cause-and-Effect.html

    • barfly 3.1

      Just as well humanity has an enormous supply of nuclear bombs…….continuous mini nuclear “winter” anyone?

      • Colonial Viper 3.1.1

        I predicted a while back that when the real crisis hits, the ‘serious talking heads on TV’ will be discussing proposals to detonate nuclear bombs in the desert to provide sun cover.

    • Colonial Viper 3.2

      CnrJoe: yep. It takes between 30 and 40 years for half the warming effects of the CO2 put up this year to be felt.

      Currently, we have experienced about half the total warming which will result from the emissions we put up in the 1980s.

      We’ve only experienced a small fraction of the total warming due from the emissions that China has put up since 2000. That’s when China started burning coal and using concrete in a truly massive way.

      • Robert Atack 3.2.1

        We ‘feel the heat instantly a carbon molecule starts radiating heat back down to the earth, the so called ‘lag’ is the ice and deep oceans. Guy gives the ‘lag’ 10 years ?

        • Colonial Viper 3.2.1.1

          Yes the CO2 molecule starts trapping extra heat immediately, but it takes decades for enough heat to be trapped that the affect of that one CO2 molecule reaches thermal equilibrium i.e. the extra heat it is trapping is balanced out by the extra heat radiated back into space due to the increased temperature.

          At least that is how I understand it.

          The “thermal inertia” of the oceans etc is another factor providing “lag” which slows down measurable surface temperature increase.

    • Bill 3.3

      From your link

      “A paper by James Hansen and others [iii] estimates the time required for 60% of global warming to take place in response to increased emissions to be in the range of 25 to 50 years. The mid-point of this is 37.5 which I have rounded to 40 years.”

      Any time lag has repercussions in terms of how we deal (or don’t deal) with shit. One paper giving a range of between 25 to 50 years does not mean the time lag is 40 years and doesn’t take into account that the lag may vary.

      • Colonial Viper 3.3.1

        But there is a lag time, and that lag time is measured in decades.
        No one is suggesting that the lag time is 5 years or 500 years.

        So whether that lag time is at the low end (25 years) or at the high end (50 years), that’s only a 25 year difference.

        • Richard Rawshark 3.3.1.1

          We are, talking a planet.. we are talking mans(pardon the sexism)destructive abilities, and things are different apparently

          http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/GlobalWarming/page3.php

          “Models predict that Earth will warm between 2 and 6 degrees Celsius in the next century. When global warming has happened at various times in the past two million years, it has taken the planet about 5,000 years to warm 5 degrees. The predicted rate of warming for the next century is at least 20 times faster. This rate of change is extremely unusual.”

  4. Pat 4

    I was also pleasantly surprised to hear it stated in more realistic terms….now it needs to be far more widespread

  5. Phil 5

    Prof. Kevin Anderson addresses this very point of the need for realism and the very wishful thinking not only in the political/journalism sphere, but in science itself. His talk “Delivering on 2°C: evolution or revolution?” is sobering, but worth watching and reflecting upon.

    • maninthemiddle 5.1

      The realism needs to come from the alarmists. For over 25 years we’ve been fed this ‘catastrophic’ scenario, and for 25 years the forecasting has been wrong. In May 2005, the UN said we had 8 years to avoid a “dangerous global average rise of 2C or more” (2degreehttps://www.theguardian.com/environment/2007/may/05/climatechange.climatechangeenvironment). Even according to NASA, global average temperatures have only risen by 0.8degrees since 1880.

      I’m interested in viable solutions to genuine problems. I’m not interested in reading more Chicken Little scenarios from people with their heads firmly imbedded in their backsides, and their hands equally firmly embedded in a trough.

      • Colonial Viper 5.1.1

        The first 99% of the journey out the back of a plane without a parachute doesn’t cause much health problems.

        Don’t let that fool you though, eh.

        • maninthemiddle 5.1.1.1

          There is evidence that the fall from the aircraft will harm me. The evidence we can have any discernible impact on climate change is sparse.

          • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.1.1

            There’s very little evidence that the fall from the aircraft will harm you – what evidence is there? Has it happened to you before and you were harmed?

            • maninthemiddle 5.1.1.1.1.1

              When I was young, my parents took me to an airshow at Ardmore (or was it Whenuapai?). During the event, one of the parachutists parachute failed to open. He tried in vain to open an auxiliary chute. I remember my father desperately trying to hide the sight from the eyes of my self and my two siblings, but the sound and sight of the man hitting the ground will be in my minds eye for ever.

              How’s that for evidence?

      • One Anonymous Bloke 5.1.2

        🙄

        Illiterate innumerate bolsters reputation for illiteracy and innumeracy: the UN didn’t say two degrees would arrive by 2016.

        The report said global emissions must peak by 2015 for the world to have any chance of limiting the expected temperature rise to 2C…

        What kind of fuckwit can’t even get that right?

        • In Vino 5.1.2.1

          Maninamuddle. That’s pretty consistent for him.

        • maninthemiddle 5.1.2.2

          “the UN didn’t say two degrees would arrive by 2016.”

          I didn’t say they did. Why can’t you learn to read. My point was that the UN gave us 8 years, 9 years ago. On the basis of that hysteria, we’re too late. I really don;t know why I have to keep spelling out the detail for you.

          • In Vino 5.1.2.2.1

            8 years for what? To reduce our emissions, not have them still increasing as they are. Got that? Another fail, you twit. Not hysteria – science. Calling it hysteria does not make you an intellectual – just another dumb denier. You have just admitted that (on that basis) that we are all in really deep shit, and we are too late – but have you actually grasped it yourself? Time you did. If you are young enough, maybe you will live through it, and your reluctant penny will finally drop.

      • Bill 5.1.3

        I’m not interested in reading more Chicken Little scenarios from people with their heads firmly imbedded in their backsides, and their hands equally firmly embedded in a trough.

        Then listen to Anderson you fool.

        • maninthemiddle 5.1.3.1

          Anderson said this:

          “There is now little to no chance of maintaining the rise in global mean surface temperature at below 2°C”

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Anderson_(scientist)

          • Bill 5.1.3.1.1

            You do know that Anderson is one of the most optimistic people out there, yes?

            Going by the most optimistic side of the science and embarking on unprecedented levels of action today we get something like a 33% chance of holding to two degrees.

            Feed current political reality (inaction) into the science and 2 degrees is gone.

            I think there’s only something like 5 or 6 years of current emissions before 1.5 becomes absolutely impossible. Think about that. Cleave to the most optimistic side of the science and no matter what we do, temperatures will be set to exceed 1.5 degrees in the time it takes a child to go through school or get a degree at Uni.

      • Macro 5.1.4

        Even according to NASA, global average temperatures have only risen by 0.8degrees since 1880.

        The planet’s average surface temperature has risen about 1.8 degrees Fahrenheit (1.0 degree Celsius) since the late-19th century, a change largely driven by increased carbon dioxide and other human-made emissions into the atmosphere.

        That is a NASA link by the way, and refers to last years record breaking warmest recorded average global temperature . This year has seen the first 8 months of the years each successively breaking the previous years record for the warmest month ever recorded, and Sept looks to continue the trend (i.e. the warmest Jan ever recorded, the warmest Feb ever recorded etc. 15 months of successively breaking records. There is a 99% chance that 2016 will be the warmest year ever in modern history breaking the record of 2015. We are well over 1 degree C above pre – industrial temperatures and we caused it.
        But wait there is more which you obviously fail to understand. Earths temperature will continue to rise until such time as the energy being emitted by the Earth in Black body radiation equals the energy being received by the Earth from the Sun in solar radiation. At present the Earth’s radiation is being trapped in the atmosphere by Greenhouse Gasses. There is an energy imbalance (the energy of around 4 Hiroshima Bombs per second) which results in the rising ocean and surface air temperatures, and temperatures will continue to rise until such time as this energy imbalance no longer exists. While we pour more GHG’s into the atmosphere, this imbalance will increase and persist.
        The current level of 400ppm CO2 is enough for at least 1.5 degrees C depending on the climate sensitivity of the Earth being relatively benign. Current observations would indicate that climate sensitivity is not benign and we are in for far greater warming that was anticipated even a few years ago.

      • lprent 5.1.5

        In May 2005, the UN said we had 8 years to avoid a “dangerous global average rise of 2C or more”

        I think that your ability to think has been significantly retarded – Alzheimers perhaps?

        Firstly you can’t paste in a page link which makes it hard to point out exactly what a munter you really are. Because I can’t be bothered wasting time on you trying to figure out which article you were referring to. I’d probably have better luck googling whatever scientifically illiterate denier site you plagiarised the quote from.

        Secondly what the “UN”* was saying in 2005 was that we had about 8 years to avoid a average global 2 degree C by the end of the century. Do you see how much of a ignorant fuckwit you are? Somehow you are equating 2016 with the year 2100.

        Thirdly this temporal lack of focus (and a natural level of stupidity) probably also explains the profound ignorance of your statement “for 25 years the forecasting has been wrong”. It appears far more probable that you simply didn’t read when the forecast was for. You expected it to be lat year – not in 20-30 years time.

        Fourthly this backwards thinking – well you have to be a Act supporter. They are generally the only crazed loons around who work backwards to rewrite history in their own heads like that.

        I’d probably have more fun explaining your personal flaws to you in finer detail. Unfortunately my spoilsport alter-ego moderator has already banned you for two weeks for diversion commenting in another post. I will wait with an educational barb…

        * actually probably one of the UN’s agencies – which is a distinction even an idiot like you should understand. However it is hard to tell when you quote without providing any details.

        • lprent 5.1.5.1

          Yeah I was right.
          The Guardian article is here.

          The critical quote that our lying and plagiarising mid-level fool forget to read down to says (my bold)

          Yesterday’s report follows two studies by the IPCC this year, which said unrestrained greenhouse gas emissions could drive global temperatures up as much as 6C by 2100, triggering a surge in ocean levels, destruction of vast numbers of species, economic devastation in tropical zones and mass human migrations.

          The report said global emissions must peak by 2015 for the world to have any chance of limiting the expected temperature rise to 2C, which would still leave billions of people short of water by 2050.

          That seems pretty clear. Global temperatures wasn’t going to rise 2 degrees C by 2016 – the reports were looking at the end of the century. And our peanut brained monkey has a pretty severe case of temporal lunacy and should probably be put on ice until 2100 so he can see how it plays out in reality.

          The “UN” that our moron of the extreme was referring to was the IPCC. That was established as joint operation between World Meteorological Organisation and the UN Environment Programme. All three are subsidiary operational organisations of the UN.

          However they are not the organisations who set UN policy of make announcement on their behalf. That is the role of the UN General Assembly and the resolutions they pass. Even a cursory search of the net would have found that out.

          So I guess that just goes to show the monkey of the middle wasn’t capable of even doing that.

  6. Macro 6

    Of all the regular commentators on RNZ, Rod certainly gets it wrt AGW. He has toured the country with Jim Salinger advocating for action on CC, he has chaired numerous meetings on the same theme, he is an active member of groups working for action on CC, and he also is acting in his own way to reduce his carbon footprint.
    The window of opportunity for the world to take decisive action is just about closed. We are in for a catastrophic future in terms of increasing severity of weather events, increasingly rapid sea level rise, land becoming so hot it is uninhabitable, and expanding tropics with the consequent spread of tropical diseases. eg. Malaria continues to kill 100’s of thousands per year.

  7. vto 7

    Well it needs repeating….

    always follow the hippies.

    the hippies have been saying such for decades.

    the conservatives on the other hand….. useless… and only ever followers. Never look to a conservative party for new ideas, let alone critical thinking. The conservatives (National Party) will eventually get in behind this stuff, as they always do

    just such a shame that conservatives have so much power in society – they are a deadweight, like the ballast in a ship

    see also /economics-is-still-lost/#comment-1233883

    • TC 7.1

      Only when theres votes in it.

      they gag climate change science and rubbish claims about global warming to ensure those votes are as small as they can make them which keeps backers happy.

      The cycle of denial and self interest is alot more powerful than reality and taking action.

    • esoteric pineapples 7.2

      It could be argued that the ridiculing of the hippy movement from the late 1970s was part of the agenda of the new right or at the least very convenient for them. Of course, it was the punk movement which started the trend of attacking the hippy movement in the mid-1970s so perhaps they need to take some of the blame. The punks never really knew what they stood for politically, apart some vague and misguided notion of anarchy which may be why you still see so many people still dressed as punks eg Pink without a shred of irony.

      • Bill 7.2.1

        Ah, esoteric – you obviously only knew or engaged with certain punks. Sure, like the hippies, many were just vacuous little fashionistas….buying their punk from HMV and wrapping it around with received attitudes and bullshit 🙂

        Some were on point though.

    • Richard Rawshark 7.3

      Right on Brother. I’ve been seeing smoke in my eyes for years dude, been telllin everyone , where was I oh, I new it was smog mann!

    • gsays 7.4

      Well said vto, I agree entirely.

      Sometimes the hippies are right too soon, which apparently is a political no-no.

      The Tories will act when it effects the bottom line.

  8. Adrian 8

    If it is going to require covering the earth entirely with forest to extract the co2 on harvest have they allowed for the enormous amount of co2 generated by rotting biomass such as what happens now in the Amazon the largest creator of co2?

    • Colonial Viper 8.1

      Sure, climate change means that drought and fires have now turned the Amazon rain forest into a net CO2 producer. This is just part of the reason we’re fucked.

    • Bill 8.2

      To quantify the amount of land. Estimates range from 1x to 3x the land area of India being planted and harvested every year.

      Infrastructure wise, we’d need something way in excess of what currently makes up the infrastructure of the fossil industry spread across the entire world within 30 years.

      Oh yeah. And we’d need the shit to actually work 😉

      As an aside, the normal carbon cycle absorbs(absorbed) slightly more carbon than it expels (expelled). It’s the fossil that knocked the balance the other way. No point in worrying about tipping points that may knock that balance even further – that’s the point when we might as well get all religious on it.

    • Editractor 8.3

      If it’s even possible to grow the trees – https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/sep/19/tree-death-california-hawaii-sudden-oak

      In the article the beetle infestation is attributed to climate change.

      • Bill 8.3.1

        Oh – in two degrees, there’ll be a lot of stuff not growing, a lot of stuff dying and some stuff thriving. (I wonder how many of the 20 000 species of bee will survive?)

        Storm’s will be fun.

  9. Sabine 9

    its fairly easy, once the mainstream media – liberal or conservative – admits that something is adrift we should all know that it is too late. That in essence the only reason the MSM is admitting the issue of global warming, climate change or climate weirding (choose whatever one is comfortable with) we should understand that it is not starting, not at the beginning but we are in the middle of it. (this was better said in Ben Eltons Stark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stark_(novel))

    will we adapt? I doubt, considering that everything has to be for profit under our current dominant business philosophy. How can we create machines and the likes to help us survive when there is no other profit to be made then a surplus of humans on a planet with diminishing resources.
    We won’t adapt, we will die pretty much like the flies that we are. In the low lying areas of the planet first – drowning due to rising sea levels, then every where else.

    If anyone thinks that the current refugee crisis in Europe is a biggie, wait another ten to twenty years and re-evalute that thought, once the people from the islands, bangladesh, florida, bahamas and the likes start running for higher ground.

    the levee’s aint holding, and we got no where to run.

    • Bill 9.1

      The thing about acknowledging our situation is that the need to dump our profit driven economy…the market economy, capitalism (call it what you will)… becomes incontrovertible.

      I’d suggest that the current insane (I can’t emphasis the insanity enough) situation where protection of an economy that is trashing the bio-sphere, trumps protection of any likely future that would make any such an economy possible, is about to hit a dead end.

      Whether that dead end is made up of resistance/demands from society or whether it’s the stomp and squish of climate change is…well, there are optimists and pessimists on that front.

      Even opting for the sooner rather then later and more positive scenario, it’s not going to help the many, many people who are already going to die because we’ve done nothing to date.

      I wonder what all those fucking liberals who’ve been known to tut-tut the inaction of train drivers in war time Germany will be saying in a decade or two? Honest guv, I didn’t know, I was only a passenger/a car driver/ doing what I was told/ putting bread on the table/nobody knew….?

      Add up the numbers of dead from all the 20th C’s despots and bastards and stack them against those about to be delivered by climate change. One of those stacks pales in comparison to the other.

      And the liberal whines echo back from the future…”I only ever wanted to do what was good and right and everyone was doing it and no, the career didn’t really matter and I didn’t even really like the foreign travel and you don’t understand what it was like, I had to do it.I had to! There was no option….”

      • Sabine 9.1.1

        The thing about acknowledging our situation is that the need to dump our profit driven economy…the market economy, capitalism (call it what you will)… becomes incontrovertible.

        i simply don’t see it happen. The ‘apres moi la deluge’ – ‘ I did not do it’ mind set is just to prevalent.
        I mean just look at the roads and the gas guzzlers on them. Every one of these drivers sits in a 5 tonne vehicle, by themselves, for several hours and nothing can be done about it, cause i don’t want to rock the boat.
        And besides, Mr. Jones next door has a much bigger and more guzzling car and i must make amends.

        some of us may start alternative communities, but again no one seems to think further then food. While the one thing i am least worried about is food. NZ is good for foraging, there are enough cows for all to eat for a year or two, lets not speak about the hens laying eggs.
        But i’m more worried about health services, education, water treatment etc. These will be the big killer as eventually we will simply not be able to a. produce enough, b. recycle the short fall, and d. be rich enough to get a gallon of water ever three days.
        so this comes to mind, cause we must continue

        • Bill 9.1.1.1

          Even just three years back, I’d have hesitated before submitting some of the posts I submit on AGW. The reason for that was that the comments would disintegrate into a pointless argument over whether AGW was real or not.

          And the comment you’ve just submitted would have unthinkable a very short time ago. You’d have been mobbed and called for all the mad shits under the sun. Not now though.

          Now we even have Mr Rod ‘cotton candy safe liberal’ Oram seriously contemplating the end of civilisation on a national radio station.

          That said, it’s still only a growing minority who turn to face this in any way whatsoever (and many of them are hypocrites). But who knows….state capitalism fell really bloody fast off the back of, at least in part, people simply not believing any more.

          Think for a moment about the current panic besetting ‘western’ political classes as they flail around trying to understand why people feel the way they do or vote the way they do. It could, all of a sudden, just go.

          And after capitalism, surgeons won’t suddenly forget how to operate and plumbers won’t wake up not knowing one end of a pipe from the other…

          • Sabine 9.1.1.1.1

            And after capitalism, surgeons won’t suddenly forget how to operate and plumbers won’t wake up not knowing one end of a pipe from the other…

            i agree, they did not in Germany after the war ended. but, you still had to pay them, cigarettes were good currency, meat worked, young women were good currency and if one desired so were young men, alcohol, stockings, chocolate.

            as i said, as long as you have something to trade you may live, if that stops cause you are old, or disfigured, or don’t have kids looking after you it very quickly becomes like so many war ravaged countries all over the planet.

            There will always be money maker. Will it be you or me? Props not.

            And yes, we don’t need a lot to loose that thin veneer of humanity, civil rights, human rights and all that other good feel stuff that we pretend are inalienable rights.

            • Bill 9.1.1.1.1.1

              But did the end of the war in any way threaten an end to capitalism? If not, then sure, people would go on distributing and offering services by the rules of capitalism – dog eat dog. (Maybe kill both and trade ’em?)

              I believe there were attempts in Northern Italy to do things differently. The US gave it short thrift and reinstated capitalist norms tout suite.

              From my distant observations of catastrophes, I get the impression that people pull together – although there’s precious little reporting that would admit as such.

              For example – remember Haiti? People were civilly passing cardboard boxes out to one another over the fence of some enclosure and a reporter (an atrocious beast), using it as an illustrative backdrop to her piece, breathlessly told the world how things had all gone to hell and that people were dangerous/in danger and looting.

              • Sabine

                the time immediatly after the war and before the currency reform in 1948 was quite interesting as virtually the Reichsmark had no value, the people that had goods to sell held them back just in case and everything was done a. by ration book and b. by bartering and trading.

                my mother and her siblings have good memories of hanging out near the us army barracks to collect cigarette butts. to be fair the yanks would have a paff and drop the cigarettes. These were then taken home, cleaned and re-rolled. Currency. My nana was a truemmerfrau so not paid much, and they all also worked on farms for goods. i.e. harvest potatoes, go home with a bag full of spuds.
                We also have a beautiful African American German uncle who was born in 1954. 🙂

                this is the only thing i can see in our future, lest we have a dictatorial regime and then all bets are off. I don’t see enlightenment. Humanity is too greedy to share, even if their life depended up sharing.

          • Corokia 9.1.1.1.2

            Modern health care needs supply chains that work. Heaps of specialized equipment and materials. We don’t make stuff like that in NZ.

            • Sabine 9.1.1.1.2.1

              yep. that is what i am talking about.

              there are several tonnes of crystalfloc that goes to Watercare every week into the water treatment circuit. we don’t make that here.
              there are several tonnes of chlorine that gets send every week to various water treatment stations in nz, most of it is not made here.
              medication? how much is made here?

              heck when / if the supply lines break apart a simply cut during gardening or a bite can kill you.

              we will still have some of it here, for the highest bidder, or the seller of the youngest meat, or or or, but one thing is for sure, ain’t no one gonna sing kumbaya and advocate for sharing. I don’t see this mindset here in NZ nor elsewhere.

              • Colonial Viper

                Chlorine we can make ourselves very easily, but we do need to gear back up some basic industries to make other necessities, for sure.

                • Sabine

                  i used to work in this industry here in NZ having scheduled all the deliveries of the water treatment products, and no you can not make enough to statisfy demand.

                  but then i guess we can all start digging for a tree bog or several, in certain areas that is a smart thing to do, or have ‘community’ latrines that are self composting, but there is no way – sadly so – that without a functioning supply chain you will produce enough chlorine to keep the country supply with clean water.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    OK, good to know.

                    Tbh I don’t really understand what is required to manufacture some of the products you speak of, but the large scale manufacture of chlorine gas can be organised IMO in just a few months as long as you can source satisfactory anode/cathode materials and of course, electricity.

                    Chloride salts for use as the feedstock should not pose a problem and can be recovered from the sea if required.

                    • Sabine

                      christalfloc binds microscopic bio mass

                      https://www.waternz.org.nz/Folder?Action=View%20File&Folder_id=101&File=Standard%20for%20the%20Supply%20of%20Polyelectrolytes%20for%20Use%20in%20Drinking-Water%20Treatment.pdf

                      chlorine can come from the Mill in hawera but is suplemented with dry chlorine from china as the Mill has been known to run out / low in stock

                      http://nzic.org.nz/ChemProcesses/forestry/4D.pdf

                      and again, you need to re-read your comment and put it into context of a total crash of supply lines, lack of energy to transport your goods from a to b, lack of energy to transport your goods from island to island.

                      We might be ok for a while with the stock at hand, especially in dry chlorine, but after a good hot summer its going to be hard. You still have to take into account that you may have 6 million people wanting to flush twice a day. Especially if you have no rain, and the reservoirs and damns run low which they do every other year or so. The most sensitive thing in NZ is water. Next emergency services.

                      in your survival scenario you really need to include self composting toilets and community latrines. And plants that love some nitrogen to help brake down the goodness of our human poop.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Yes indeed our problems go exponential if global logistics systems experience a prolonged breakdown lasting more than a few weeks.

                      And yes I agree that household by household and neighbourhood by neighbourhood solutions which take load off the larger network are critical to avoid total collapse of the larger network.

                  • Red Hand

                    I lived on the shore in 40s/50s and we used tank water and had a long drop and septic tank, vege garden and fruit trees, old man next door milked two cows and we had a dinghy for fishing. Now in the city, still use roof runoff for watering veges and cleaning and grow fruit trees. It’s easier than people might think and cheers you up when you give the fruit you don’t need to friends and neighbours. My parents always looked for things that would last and that could be repaired. Shoes were resoled, socks and jumpers darned and good parts of old sheets cut out to make new ones. The Christmas chook was a real treat. People would relearn the old skills.

      • adam 9.1.2

        The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

        This economy is hell, and rehashing it will mean we all going to die.

        No one is brave enough to say stop.

        No wait here goes.

        Stop!

        Stop buying useless crap, Stop, just stop being a pawn in a broken system.

        Because every time you buy gas, or have another round in this rat wheel – you are the problem.

        Grow a spine.

      • Garibaldi 9.1.3

        You are dead right Sabine and Bill. Short term greed and to hell with the consequences , and it’s universal. But wait ,there’s more…. perhaps those wonderful right wing deniers are going to save us. Or perhaps that wonderful god that the Jews , Christians and Muslims rely on could do the decent thing for once.

      • Colonial Viper 9.1.4

        The thing about acknowledging our situation is that the need to dump our profit driven economy…the market economy, capitalism (call it what you will)… becomes incontrovertible.

        +1000

        To have any way of even humanely coping with the consequences of what is coming, we have to dump our profit driven free market economy.

        • Bill 9.1.4.1

          Well…to have any remote chance of avoiding what CC will deliver we have to dump all that shit.

          But if we don’t, then there are some will do quite well, at least for a short time post hell landing. I agree there will be very little if anything humane going on in that case – not unless it’s stuff flying under the radar of today’s cliques desperately trying to preserve their power in any number of post Holocene scenarios.

  10. Gareth 10

    The Radio NZ link seems to be down. It comes up with “No item playing”.

    Has anyone got another way of finding the audio segment?

  11. esoteric pineapples 11

    A hard rain’s gonna fall

  12. weka 12

    Nice one Bill. Tipping points and where we can intervene in the system. Once the middle classes get on board we could see major shifts. And then action. This is why I support Gen Zero, the GP etc, because they’re the power holders who have the resources to enact the change we desperately need. And that enacting will come once the culture shifts. We can encourage people like Oram, who have power, to keep speaking out.

    • Bill 12.1

      Odd.

      I precisely don’t support Gen Zero et al because the action they call for is woefully inadequate; is based around the very assumptions I mentioned in the post that, happily, some liberal commentator/outlets might be finally moving beyond and it locks us into a particular course of action.

      We can’t speed up or scale up from the type of stuff Gen Zero/Greenpeace are advocating – it locks us in place until the horses are over the hill, far away and the barn’s just a soggy, cold charred mound. If we do what they want, then that’s all we’ll be able to do. And it’s not even in the ball park in terms of getting us 2 degrees or anything anywhere near 2 degrees.

      But I believe we’ve had this debate before and know full well we don’t see eye to eye on it, so hey.

      • Colonial Viper 12.1.1

        “I’m willing to make major sacrifices to reduce my carbon emissions, as long as you can guarantee that my standard of living won’t be affected.”

      • weka 12.1.2

        Yeah, but you also don’t present a strategy for how to get from where we are now to where we need to be. It’s pretty easy to talk about what we should be doing. Coming up with how to do those takes strategy.

        I’m saying there are steps in between where we are now and true change, and getting the middle classes on board is a massive step. They’re not reading the more radical stuff on The Standard, they’re listening to Rod Oram on RNZ. When he starts talking about the end of civ I think we are getting somewhere. But if we didn’t also have a range of other middle class voices talking about climate change, in various ways, in middle class language not ts radical language, then Oram would sound like a nutter. The tipping point needs to happen in the middle classes, and radicals telling them what they should be doing isn’t a particularly potent strategy IMO.

        Which isn’t to say the radical voices aren’t important. They’re imperative, that goes without saying, because eventually they will become normalised (hence Oram talking about the end of civ). And when the radical voices and the moderate ones start talking to each other, then we might get somewhere.

        We don’t need Gen Zero for the solutions to what we should be doing, so we don’t need to scale up their ideas. What we need from them is normalise climate change action and change. That would be the most vital thing that would come from the Greens being in parliament. Not them being radical (that ship sailed quite some time ago when NZers weren’t voting for them when they were still radical), but NZ having a government that takes climate change seriously. At that point, we will all be lobbying them to up their game and take on board the next level of action. But we will be far closer to being able to do that than from where we are now.

        The technical stuff that will need to be scaled up, but I’m not sure we even need to worry about that. We’re quite capable of doing that already, even despite the fuck up of neoliberalism. What’s stopping us is cultural.

        • Bill 12.1.2.1

          Oh, I have presented a strategy. All that governmental strong arming of the aviation and shipping sector? The incentives and behavioural changes that flow (and mutually reinforce) from free fossil for business and individuals?

          And I agree that the likes of Rod Oram and The Guardian doing some straight talking is vital….that’s kind of what the entire post was revolving around, yes?

          And then back to the 15 years we have to be done and dusted with fossil…that doesn’t leave much time for much, aye?

          So the Oram’s and the Guardians (the liberal voices) telling their peers that the game’s a bogey is again, what the post revolves around. Of course we could spend another quarter of a century having meetings and passing resolutions while the world goes to hell in a hand basket. That along with some fairy tale belief in huge carbon capture tech is what’s radical – not me.

          On climate I’m not at all radical – on the contrary, my approach is incredibly precautionary and conservative. Climate change (basic physics) has no place for radicalism.

          • marty mars 12.1.2.1.1

            Part of the issue may be right here in front of us – weka and bill. Both believe in climate change. Both believe we must do more to prepare people, populations and society for the changes coming and visibly here now. You’d think you two would be buddy buddies working in sync – but you aren’t are you? I feel you are talking past each other. Why is that and isn’t that just a microscopic view of the macro problems facing getting ANY action going at all.

          • weka 12.1.2.1.2

            Oh, I have presented a strategy. All that governmental strong arming of the aviation and shipping sector? The incentives and behavioural changes that flow (and mutually reinforce) from free fossil for business and individuals?

            That’s strategy for technical change. I’m talking about the cultural change that needs to happen before anyone will agree to the technical change. Cultural change is what would enable NZ to have a government that will regulate strongly.

            • Bill 12.1.2.1.2.1

              When you go to the toilet, what’s your strategy?

              Mine is to go out ‘that’ door there, along the hall and out the other door. Maybe yours is to go up the stairs or through a hallway or whatever. Point is, it’s different to mine and to everyone else’s but driven by the same need – the same simple understanding or realisation that there is a need.

              The same with CC.

              Unfortunately, many people are at what we might call the toddler stage with regards the need to act; move; do something.

              There is no ‘one strategy’ beyond impressing on people that the need exists. Mention it and talk about it to and do it differently depending on your audience. Sometimes a casual remark in passing, sometimes an in-depth conversation.

              Get to any Greenpeace and Gen Zero meetings and kick them in the pants. Present them with the actual numbers and time scales. (Posts have been done on that)

              Host or attend ‘Coffee, Cake and Revolution’ evenings.

              In all of the above there’s the opportunity to use the realisation of a need as a springboard into the finer details of the hows and what not’s (Posts have been done on that too)

              Send a single sided A4 letter (not an email) to your local MP with the numbers and time scales.

              Ping emails off to radio shows or TV programmes that spin a line. Hold them to the numbers and government commitments (Copenhagen and Paris) ie, – 2 degrees by the science and ensuring equity is promoted/maintained.

              And so on.

              • weka

                I think we have very different ideas of what strategy is, We don’t generally need a strategy to use the toilet, because it is a habitual behaviour that happens without much thought or need for strategy.

                I’m not suggesting there is a single strategy, but it appears you are,

                “There is no ‘one strategy’ beyond impressing on people that the need exists.”

                All the things you suggest are ideas on what should be done. They’re good ideas. They’re not strategy. Strategy would be how to make those things happen given they’re not.

                Having said that, I suspect that where you and I are thinking more closely is that when you say “impress on people that the need exists”, I’m thinking about cultural change. They’re similar.

                • Bill

                  Reacting to any need is habitual or reflexive, be it toilet, itch, big bus, climate change…

                  They do involve a degree of strategy. Eg – must stand up, walk, open door, sit down etc. All things being equal, none of it’s difficult once the need is recognised…. jump out of the way (bus)…stop burning fossil (climate change)

                  Me reacting to climate change given the confines of society and the fact I’m one among many will have next to no effect unless we allow for the possibility of a cascade effect (eg – the Tunisian stall keeper who set himself on fire set off an unpredicted sequence of events)

                  Beyond talking, engaging and pushing, there is no strategy…no need for one – patterns emerge and ‘develop’ and eventually result in cultural change. Seeking a strategy at some cultural level, or demanding that one be provided, can easily become an excuse for not acting or, just as bad, a pathway towards some imposition of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ and all that entails.

  13. Paul Campbell 13

    Here’s a carbon reclamation scheme we can do here in NZ … It’s very simple,take all the newspapers we currently recycle (made from atmospheric carbon) and rather than using them to make more newspapers throw them down old coal mines …. We’ll have to grow more trees to extract more atmospheric carbon to replace the recycled papers but that’s not a bad thing

    • In Vino 13.1

      Yes… maybe we could throw in all local body election booklets as well, for all the few who read them, and for the little good it does those who do. Half the left-sounding candidates turn out to be Act Party types wearing sheep’s clothing to gain votes off the very people they will betray.

    • Bill 13.2

      What if we wrapped the industrialists and politicians up in those newspapers and election booklets first…stuffed their pockets and what not? Just – y’know – the possibility of them getting caught in an updraught and littering the place…

  14. corokia 14

    We really, really don’t want collapse of civilisation as we know it.

    Unfortunately, thanks to deliberate ignoring of the seriousness of the climate change problem by politicians and the media, that is exactly what we are heading for. Barring some epiphany by those in power , followed by immediate war-type effort on a global scale, it’s when, not if, for the end of current lifestyles as we know them.

    Trouble is, it worries me that the media will to leap from ignoring or denying climate change to “it’s too late to do anything”

    • weka 14.1

      There are different ways society could ‘collapse’, and they’re not all bad. We might get to have some say in how that goes.

      I agree that one worry is the jump from denial/ignoring to it’s too late. We need to challenge that story wherever it arises.

      • Corokia 14.1.1

        We are not getting very far with having a say on the way things are being done now. I think it’s incredibly unrealistic to expect to have any influence over a ‘collapse ‘

        • weka 14.1.1.1

          The permaculture, Transition Town, and other subcultures have been preparing for collapse for a long time. That’s influence on the collapse, because when it happens, we will find that there are a whole bunch of people that are prepared and willing to show others how to change. That’s huge. The more we can do that the better. It doesn’t mitigate CC, but it does mitigate collapse.

          Politically, having L/G in power rather than National when the collapse happens means that we will more likely go in a direction of something useful, than the direction of our greatest fears. I’m thinking the difference between a government that introduces war footing measures vs one that goes full on fascist.

          That’s a couple of examples 🙂

  15. A friend gave me a good analogy the other day – he said imagine the mass of humanity heading down the road and up ahead is a tunnel. This tunnel is much smaller than the mass of humanity. this tunnel is tapered so that as the mass of humanity hits the tunnel the outer edges will hit the walls and the middle bit will go through the ever decreasing tunnel. The closer you are to the middle (whatever and where ever that is – but likely western countries, wealthier countries, less populated countries) the less chance you will scrape against or hit the wall.

    I suppose the question then is – is it a tunnel or a cave – does the opening continue or eventually close.

    • Andre 15.1

      Yep. The outer edges are the billions living at very high densities from the Middle East through to Southeast Asia (and parts of Africa) that are already experiencing heat stress and water shortage. It’s already ugly for them and it’s getting uglier very quickly.

      The tunnel might close as a result of an event like the oceans going anoxic, which can then lead to release of toxic gases. Very low probability, but as I understand it the geologic record suggests it may have happened before. Or maybe from a failed dumb geo-engineering project.

      The choices we make now and in the very near future will have a huge influence on how narrow the tunnel becomes. At the moment, our choices look like that tunnel is going to get very small indeed. As in the areas where the large majority of humans currently live becoming too hot for agriculture or human habitation.

  16. Richard Rawshark 16

    Perhaps the destruction of our own planet in the long run will cause humans to be the first known species to leave their home world and seek other hospitable planets.

    Every now and then species need a survival test of biblical proportions to transcend current limitations.

    • Colonial Viper 16.1

      Apart from a handful of hitch hikers who might be picked up by passing UFOs or vogons, that’s not going to happen.

    • Bill 16.2

      Maybe we already trashed out Mars. Possibly Venus too? Maybe Earth was a planet that some previous expression of humanity sent a wee ‘explorer’ space ship to and the microbes….

      There must be a sci-fi novel out there that plays with that idea, no? 🙂

      • Colonial Viper 16.2.1

        In Battlestar Galactica (home of the starfighter “Colonial Vipers”) humanity creates a race of AI slaves who eventually rebel and wipe out their human masters and the home worlds of man. Leaving a ragtag fleet of a few refugees to escape who finally discover Earth, tens of thousands of years ago…only for us to do it all over again

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    The Royal Commission on abuse in care is very significant for the disability community. For many decades last century, thousands of disabled children, and adults who managed to survive, were locked away from families and communities. This was not for anything they had done, but for the perceived threat their ...
    4 days ago
  • Spain is not a democracy
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • UK Conservatives hate democracy
    With an unfair voting system, uneven electorates and an un-elected upper house, the UK's "democracy" is barely worthy of the name. But now the government wants to make it worse:The government has been accused of suppressing voters’ rights with the potential disenfranchisement of tens of thousands of people after plans ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • What is wrong with our building industry?
    Back in the 90's and early 2000's, the building industry was building leaky homes which should never have been granted consent. Now it turns out they've been building dodgy office blocks as well:New imaging technology has revealed hundreds of major buildings nationwide have defective or missing concrete or reinforcing steel. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Local bodies
    Local body election results were released over the weekend, to joy or despair depending on where you live. In Auckland, Phil Goff trounced John Tamihere, who is muttering darkly about running for Parliament again (but which party would want him?) Wellington is now a wholly-owned subsidiary of Weta Workshop, except ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • A future of government
      How could government evolve over the next decades? Reports of democracy’s imminent demise are greatly exaggerated.  However, satisfaction with political systems in many countries is low, so there is much to do for governments of all political stripes to improve relevance and trust. Digital technologies are seen as one ...
    SciBlogsBy Robert Hickson
    7 days ago
  • Speaker: Catalonia, interrupted
    Two years have now gone by since the Friday afternoon when my university-student son and I headed out of our Barcelona flat to a nearby primary school, designated as a polling station for the vote that was to be held the following Sunday: the referendum on Catalonia’s independence from Spain ...
    7 days ago
  • Sage Decisions Unwisely Over-Ruled.
    Overruled: The joint decision of Finance Minister, Grant Robertson (Labour) and his Associate Minister, David Parker (Labour) arguably the two most powerful ministers in Jacinda Ardern’s government, to grant OceanaGold the consents which Land Information Minister, Eugenie Sage (Greens) had earlier denied them, offers bitter proof of how hard fighting ...
    7 days ago
  • Government may ban voting in effort to get more people to do it
    More than double the number of people who will vote in this year’s local body elections have tried marijuana or urinated somewhere they shouldn’t have. As local elections look set for the lowest turnout in decades, with many regions falling well short of 40%, the Government is exploring a number ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Woman: Deleted.
    A Statement on Abortion Law Reform by the Council of Disobedient Women   On the eve of bringing an end to antiquated, anti-women abortion laws Green MP Jan Logie intends to write women out of the Bill. With a stroke of the pen, the woke are aiming for total erasure ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • The Hollowest of Men Ride Again… SURPRISE!
    Musings continue apace about “the experienced businessman!” soon to be taking up a National Party MP position. Or to be more accurate, being parachuted into a seat to shut down their former MP Jamie-Lee Ross, who despite his own shortcomings shed at least some more light on the inner workings ...
    exhALANtBy exhalantblog
    1 week ago
  • Barbaric
    The Ugandan government wants to murder gay people:Uganda has announced plans to impose the death penalty on homosexuals. The bill, colloquially known as “Kill the Gays” in Uganda, was nullified five years ago on a technicality, but the government said on Thursday it plans to resurrect it within weeks. The ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Fighting Monsters.
    Freedom Of Speech? The Säuberung (cleansing by fire) was the work of the German Student Union which, on 10 May 1933, under the watchful eye of the Nazi Reichminister for Propaganda, Joseph Goebbels, consigned 25,000 books to the flames in a ritual exorcism of “un-German thought”. According to the logic of the ...
    1 week ago
  • The next wave of kaupapa Māori politics: its constitutional, it must be.
      “There can be no such thing as kaupapa Māori political parties or politics in Aotearoa” (Willie Jackson, Labour Party (2017). Māori TV, General/List Election Special) I begin with that claim because at the time, I was confounded at first that it fell out of Willie Jackson’s mouth, and then ...
    EllipsisterBy Ellipsister
    1 week ago
  • Night lights of NZ from orbit
    New Zealand has prided itself for decades with regard to its lack of pollution, and all will be aware that the ‘100% Pure New Zealand‘ meme is under threat through land, water and air pollution of various causes. There is another type of contamination that the country also faces: light ...
    SciBlogsBy Duncan Steel
    1 week ago
  • Reporters deliver uplifting news to fleeing Japanese residents: they won’t miss any rugby
    New Zealand’s media is doing its part in Japan, reassuring those in the path of the storm that they won’t miss any rugby while away from their flooded homes. New Zealand sports reporters stationed in Japan for the Rugby World Cup have had the rare and heartwarming opportunity to inform ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Government in contentious discussions about whether to put surplus on red or black
    Regional Development Minister Shane Jones is the only Cabinet member in favour of putting it all on green. As Finance Minister Grant Robertson finds himself with an enormous $7.5 billion surplus, the Government has begun intense, at times contentious conversations about whether to put the money on red or black at ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Jordanian teachers’ successful strike has lessons for here
    by Susanne Kemp At the start of September close to 100,000 school teachers went on strike in Jordan.  They demanded a 50% pay rise.  A pay rise actually agreed to by the regime back in 2014. In early October, however, in the face of government repression and threats, the teachers’ ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Why some people still think climate change isn’t real
    Climate Explained is a collaboration between The Conversation, Stuff and the New Zealand Science Media Centre to answer your questions about climate change. If you have a question you’d like an expert to answer, please send it to climate.change@stuff.co.nz Why do people still think climate change isn’t real? David ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    1 week ago
  • The SIS unlawfully spied on Nicky Hager
    Back in 2011, journalist Nicky Hager published Other People's Wars, an expose on NZDF's activities over the previous decade of the "war on terror". NZDF didn't like this, and especially didn't like the fact that it was base don leaks from their own. So, they had the SIS investigate him ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • October 2019 – Newsletter
    https://mailchi.mp/7d9133add053/closing-the-gap-october-2019-newsletter ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    1 week ago
  • And they wonder why we think they’re environmental vandals…
    The Zero Carbon Bill is due back from select committee in two weeks, and will likely pass its final stages in November. So naturally, farmers are planning a hate-march against it. But they're not just demanding lower methane targets so they can keep on destroying the planet; they're also demanding ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: Paying the price in California
    Last year, California burned. This year, to stop it happening again (or rather, to stop themselves from being found liable if it happens again), Pacific Gas and Electric is cutting power to half the state for a week:Schools are closed. Traffic lights down. Tunnels dark. Businesses unopened. Hospitals running on ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Let’s Hear It For Up-Close-And-Personal, Hard-Copy Democracy!
    The Best Way: Missing from the on-line voting debate is any reference to the voting system that produces turn-out figures ranging from 77 to 93 percent of registered voters. The voting system used to collect and count the votes cast in our parliamentary elections. The system that involves citizens making ...
    1 week ago
  • 10/10: World Day Against the Death Penalty
    Today, October 10, is the world day against the death penalty. Out of 195 UN member states, 84 still permit capital punishment. Today is the day we work to change that. This year's theme is children. Having a parent sentenced to death or executed causes long-term trauma and stigmatization which ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Talking Freer Lives: a Marxist gender-critical perspective from Australia
    Among the great new bunch of political friends we have been making recently is the excellent Australian-based Marxist gender-critical site, Freer Lives.  So we asked the comrade who set up that blog to write something for Redline on the blog, himself, his analysis of the rise of gender politics and ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Government spin accepted by union leadership
    by Don Franks  The Auckland City Mission is struggling with a 40 percent increase in demand for food parcels this year. A total of 23,020 were needed by June. Last month Missioner Chris Farrelly told the Herald the “cupboards are bare” and without an emergency food drive, he can’t see ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Forbidden Thoughts
    by The Council of Disobedient Women   Massey Wellington Student Association had a sit-in today. Imagine a sit-in. On a campus. Against a women’s rights meeting. Did the ’60s really happen or did we fucking dream it? They gathered in the student square, an echo chamber. Sitting on soft pillows ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Much love to my loyal Ukrainian readership
    For some reasons, my post about the mystery message from inside the Downing Street bunker seemed to catch people's attention.  Quite a lot of hits from NZ (unsurprisingly) and the USA (a bit more puzzlingly, but hi there, USAians!!) and 76 views from the Ukraine.I've celebrated my Ukrainian readers in ...
    1 week ago
  • Another day of bonkers GNUmours (again, sorry)
    First, almost a score of Labour MPs seem to have sent a letter to the EU basically begging them to accept a deal - any deal - just so Britain can get the Heck on with Brexiting instead of being trapped in limbo:
    To avoid no deal, deliver on the ...
    1 week ago
  • Labour vs working class immigrants – again!
    by Phil Duncan In 2016 the National-led government suspended the Parent Visa Category, through which migrants were able to bring their parents into New Zealand.  Since then over 5,700 people have been in immigration limbo, stuck on the visa wait list. Labour is now bringing back the scheme.  Well, sort ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Speak Up for Women press statement: on Massey University and Feminism 2020
    The following was released yesterday (Tues, October 8) by the women’s liberation organisation Speak Up for Women. On 23 September Speak Up For Women announced that we would be holding an event at the Massey University Theaterette in Wellington. The event is called Feminism 2020. The intention of the event ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Farmers support dirty rivers
    The government is currently consulting on plans to improve freshwater quality. So naturally, farmers oppose it:South Taranaki farmers are preparing to fight proposed national freshwater changes that some fear will bankrupt them. The Government's proposed National Environment Standard on Freshwater Management, released in September, rated the Waingongoro River as one ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • No-one cares about local government
    Yesterday was the last day for (reliably) posting your vote away in local body elections. Turnouts are mostly much lower than the equivalent time last year (Palmerston North is down 2.3%), and so naturally people are pushing their online-voting snake oil again. Because the online census worked so well, lets ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • The political ghosts of eugenics may matter more than the genetic
    This essay, on the political legacy of the eugenics movement, by Kenan Malik was originally published in the Observer on 6 October 2019, under the headline ‘The spirit of eugenics is still with us, as immigrants know to their cost’. Birth control. Intelligence tests. Town planning. Immigration controls. It’s striking how ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • “Surplus” again
    Another year, and the government has announced another enormous government "surplus". And just like last year, its nothing of the sort. When we have people homeless and sick and hungry, when we have schools and hospitals still falling down, when we have underpaid public servants and infrastucture unmaintained or unbuilt, ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Inside the Downing Street bunker
    James Forsyth at The Spectator (I know, I know) has tapped one of his contacts inside Number Ten for an insight into the Johnson administration's thinking and strategy.It is fascinating, unsettling and quite, quite mad.  Some key points:Negotiations have stalled and the Johnson administration are keen to blame the EU: ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Taking Control Of The Nation’s Story.
    Fatal Contact: With the arrival of captain James Cook in October 1769, the islands of what would become New Zealand ceased to be the preserve of Polynesian navigators and settlers and became a part of both the world’s map and the world’s history.THE MAORI NATIONALIST assault upon the historical meaning ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Are GNUs extinct?
    Another round of tactical talks about forming a Government of National Unity have come to nothing with the Liberal Democrats still refusing countenance putting Jeremy Corbyn into Downing Street:Opposition talks on Monday made little headway over when to try and vote down Boris Johnson's government and who might succeed him as ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Labour chickens out again
    When the government was elected, it promised to lead the way on electric vehicles, and specifically to make the government vehicle fleet emissions-free where-practicable by 2025.They lied:There are 15,473 vehicles in the government fleet and only 78 are electric. When the coalition Government came into power in late 2017, the ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Transgender extremism, violence at work against feminist meeting at British Labour Party conference
    by Nick Rogers The debate around the meaning of sex and gender made an appearance at this year’s British Labour Party conference in Brighton. Women’s Place UK – an organisation that questions the demand that biological males who self-identify as woman should have access to women’s spaces, to all-women shortlists, ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Rebelling in Wellington
    Yesterday I went down to Wellington to participate in the Extinction Rebellion protest. Its part of the latest global wave of XR actions, with actions happening all over the world. Some of those protests are massively disruptive: in Canada, XR is blocking major bridges, stopping people from getting to work. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • ‘The Workshop’ – Report: Talking about Poverty and Welfare Reform: A Guide to Strategies that ...
    The Workshop is a charitable trust for public good. The Workshop undertake research to find ways of communicating that will build support for the solutions that work to solve complex social and environmental problems. See their Report on Talking about Poverty and Welfare Reform below. ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    2 weeks ago
  • Exclusive language
    What is language? We generally assume that it a facility unique to humans, allowing us to share what’s in and on our minds. We can tell of our plans, our past exploits, our knowledge. It also allows us to lie. And yet there are vast numbers of people we can’t ...
    SciBlogsBy Michael Corballis
    2 weeks ago
  • April 2018 – Submission to the NZ Govt Tax Working Group
    You can read our submission HERE ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    2 weeks ago

  • Methane reducing cattle feed one step closer
    The Government today announced its support for a project that could substantially reduce agricultural greenhouse gas emissions from cattle. The announcement was made as part of Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern’s and Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor’s visit to Nelson’s Cawthron Aquaculture Park. The Cawthron Institute will receive $100,000 from the Government’s ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    13 hours ago
  • Bill to refresh superannuation system passes first reading
    Social Development Minister Carmel Sepuloni has welcomed the first reading of the New Zealand Superannuation and Veteran’s Pension Legislation Amendment Bill. “Every New Zealander has a stake in New Zealand Superannuation and Veteran’s Pension,” says Carmel Sepuloni. “They are our most common form of social assistance – nearly 800,000 New ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    15 hours ago
  • Government announces next steps in fight against measles
    Babies in Auckland aged six months and over can receive a free vaccination and children will all have access to vaccines, Associate Minister of Health Julie Anne Genter announced today at Papatoetoe High School.   The move comes as part of Government efforts to step up the fight against measles. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    16 hours ago
  • Speech to the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs, Pacific Futures: Connections, Identity...
    ***Check against delivery*** Good morning. It is a pleasure to be here, and to have the honour of opening this important conference on behalf of the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs. Let us take the opportunity to acknowledge all the people who have helped make today possible, including our special ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    17 hours ago
  • Police trial new response to high risk events
    Police Minister Stuart Nash says the safety of frontline officers and members of the public will be the focus of a new trial of specialist Police response teams in three of our largest urban centres. Police have this morning released details of an initiative to be trialled in Counties Manukau, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    17 hours ago
  • New awards celebrate fisheries sustainability
    The Minister of Fisheries is calling for entries for a new public award to celebrate innovation in our seafood sector. “I have established the Seafood Sustainability Awards to recognise and celebrate those throughout industry, tangata whenua and communities who demonstrate outstanding dedication and innovation towards the sustainability of New Zealand’s ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    19 hours ago
  • More progress for women and we can do more
    Minister for Women Julie Anne Genter welcomes leaders in the private sector taking action on closing their gender pay gaps to ensure a fairer workplace for all New Zealanders. Ms Genter today launched a new report, Addressing the gender pay gap and driving women’s representation in senior leadership, from the Champions for ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    23 hours ago
  • Proposals to curb environmental damage help our coasts and the oceans
    Government Ministers today welcomed the release of a marine environment report highlighting the four key issues affecting our oceans, estuaries and coastlines.  The release underlines the importance of government proposals to combat climate pollution, ensure clean freshwater, protect biodiversity, make land use more sustainable, and reduce waste and plastic.    Environment ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • New mental health facility for Waikato
    The Government has approved funding for a new acute mental health facility for Waikato which will provide better care and support to people with mental health and addiction issues. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and Health Minister Dr David Clark announced the $100 million project to replace the aging Henry Rongomau ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • 500 new te reo Māori champions in our classrooms
    The Government is making progress on its goal to integrate te reo Māori into education by 2025, with over 500 teachers and support staff already graduating from Te Ahu o te Reo Māori,  Associate Education Minister Kelvin Davis announced today. Kelvin Davis made the announcement at an awards ceremony in Waikanae today, for ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Minister James Shaw welcomes 2018 Census first release
    Statistics Minister James Shaw has welcomed the first release of 2018 Census data. The first release of data today, 23 September, includes key data on population, regional growth, the number of homes and the size of different ethnic groups in New Zealand. Data from the 2018 Census will support the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Driving transparency, ethics and accountability in government use of algorithms
    Minister for Statistics James Shaw today announced a public consultation on a proposed algorithm charter for government agencies. The charter has been developed by the Government Chief Data Steward in response to growing calls for more transparency in government use of data. Computer algorithms – procedures or formulas for solving ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • New Zealand and the Netherlands working together on climate change
    Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor, Climate Change Minister James Shaw and visiting Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte co-hosted a business roundtable in Auckland this morning focused on working together to address climate change.  “The Netherlands is an important partner for New Zealand. We share a strong agricultural history. Sustainable agribusiness and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Protecting fairness for workers and businesses
    The Government is taking action to build an inclusive economy where more of us receive our fair share at work and businesses can compete on great products and services, not undercutting wages and conditions, Immigration and Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Iain Lees-Galloway says. Two consultations launched today seek feedback ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Indigenous Freshwater Fish Bill Passes
    The future for New Zealand’s threatened indigenous freshwater fish looks brighter with the passing of the Conservation (Indigenous Freshwater Fish) Amendment Bill in Parliament today said Minister of Conservation, Eugenie Sage. “Until now, our freshwater fish legislation has been 20 years out of date. We have lacked effective tools to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Kiwis to take part in world’s biggest earthquake drill
    At 1.30pm tomorrow, hundreds of thousands of Kiwis will join about 65 million people around the globe in ShakeOut, the world’s biggest earthquake drill. The annual drill is to remind people of the right action to take during an earthquake which is to Drop, Cover, Hold, and to practise their ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Rising wages and low inflation supporting Kiwis
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • NZ economy strong amid global headwinds
    New Zealand’s economic strength and resilience has been recognised in a major update on the state of the global economy. The IMF’s latest World Economic Outlook released overnight shows a reduced global growth forecast over the next two years as issues like the US-China trade war and Brexit take hold. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Keeping New Zealanders safer with better counter-terrorism laws
    Justice Minister Andrew Little has today introduced a new Bill to prevent terrorism and support the de-radicalisation of New Zealanders returning from overseas. The Terrorism Suppression (Control Orders) Bill gives the New Zealand Police the ability to apply to the High Court to impose control orders on New Zealanders who ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Improved succession and dispute resolution core of Ture Whenua changes
    A Bill that proposes targeted changes to simplify the processes for Māori land owners when engaging with the Māori Land Court has had its First Reading today. “The approach taken by the Government is to ensure that the protection of Māori land remains a priority as we seek to improve ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Speech to CTU Biennial Conference
    Let me first thank all the new unionists and members in the room. There is nothing more important to improving people’s working lives than people making the decision to care, to get on board and help, to take up the reins and get involved. Congratulations to you. You bring the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Minister ensures continued Whenuapai flight operations
    Minister of Defence Ron Mark has signed a certificate exempting the activity of engine testing at Whenuapai Airbase from the Resource Management Act 1991. The Act gives the Minister of Defence the power to exempt activities for the purposes of national security.  The certificate will mean the recent Environment Court ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • NZ joins Coalition of Finance Ministers for Climate Action
    Finance Minister Grant Robertson has announced New Zealand will join the Coalition of Finance Ministers for Climate Action while attending APEC meetings in Chile. The objective of the 39 member Coalition is to share information and promote action to tackle climate change. It was formed in April this year, in ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Feedback Sought – Section 71 – Lyttelton Parking
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Feedback Sought – Section 71 – Hagley Oval
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • CTU speech – DPM
    Ladies and gentlemen, NZCTU President Richard Wagstaff, members of respective unions – thank you for the invitation to speak to you today. This might be preaching to the choir, but the importance of trade unions in New Zealand’s historical arch is difficult to understate. And it is my belief that ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Police Association Annual Conference
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • New Zealand announces a further P-3 deployment in support of UN sanctions
    Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters and Minister of Defence Ron Mark have announced the New Zealand Government’s decision to again deploy a Royal New Zealand Air Force P-3K2 (P-3) maritime patrol aircraft to support the implementation of United Nations Security Council (UNSC) resolutions imposing sanctions against North Korea. New ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • New Zealand deeply concerned at developments in north-east Syria
    Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters says New Zealand continues to have serious concerns for peace and stability in north-east Syria. “Recent reports that hundreds of ISIS-affiliated families have fled from a camp are deeply concerning from a humanitarian and security perspective”, Mr Peters says. “While we acknowledge Turkey’s domestic security ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Government on high alert for stink bugs
    Biosecurity Minister Damien O’Connor is warning travelling Kiwis to be vigilant as the high-season for the crop-eating brown marmorated stink bug (BMSB) is under way. “We’re on high alert to stop BMSB arriving in NZ. The high season runs until April 30 and we’ve strengthened our measures to stop stink ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Better protections for students in halls of residence
    The Government is moving swiftly to change the law to improve the welfare and pastoral care of students living in university halls of residence and other tertiary hostels. Cabinet has agreed to several changes, including creating a new mandatory Code of Practice that sets out the duty of pastoral care ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • New trapping guide for community and expert trappers alike
    The Minister for Conservation Eugenie Sage has launched a new comprehensive trapping guide for community trappers to help them protect our native birds, plants and other wildlife, at Zealandia in Wellington today. ‘A practical guide to trapping’, has been developed by the Department of Conservation (DOC), and was launched during ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Widening Access to Contraceptives Welcomed
    Associate Health Minister Julie Anne Genter welcomes PHARMAC’s move to improve access to long-acting reversible contraception (LARCs). PHARMAC has today announced it will fund the full cost of Mirena and Jaydess for anyone seeking long term contraception, lifting previous restrictions on access to Mirena. “I welcome women having greater choices ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Major upgrade for Taranaki Base Hospital
    The Government has approved the next stage of a major redevelopment of Taranaki Base Hospital, which will deliver new and improved facilities for patients. Health Minister Dr David Clark has announced details of a $300 million dollar project to build a new East Wing at the New Plymouth hospital. It ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Extra support for rural families
    Extra funding will allow Rural Support Trusts to help farming families, says Minister for Rural Communities and Agriculture Damien O’Connor. “I know that rural families are worried about some of the challenges facing them, including the ongoing uncertainty created by the Mycoplasma bovis outbreak. “Those concerns sit alongside ongoing worries ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Howard Leaque Beekeeper programme graduation
    Thank you for the opportunity to be here to present certificates to the 16 graduates who have completed a beekeeping course delivered by the Howard League.  Let us start by acknowledging Auckland Prison’s Deputy Prison Director Tom Sherlock, and Acting Assistant Regional Commissioner of Corrections Northern Region Scott Walker - ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Finance Minister to attend APEC meetings
    Finance Minister Grant Robertson leaves this weekend to attend the APEC Finance Ministers meeting in Santiago, Chile. Discussions between APEC Finance Ministers at the meeting will include the effects of the current global economic uncertainty, risks for APEC economies and sustainable development of the region. While at APEC Grant Robertson ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Pacific languages are a source of strength, they ground us and build confidence
    The Minister for Pacific Peoples Aupito William Sio says for Pacific people, language can be a source of strength. It can help ground us and give us confidence. When we speak them, our languages provide us with an immediate and intimate access to our identity and our story - and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Major boost to support disabled people in sport and recreation
    The Coalition Government has announced an action plan to improve the wellbeing of disabled New Zealanders by addressing inequalities in play, active recreation and sport. The initiative includes training to develop a workforce that understands the needs of children and young people with a range of impairments, advocacy for fit ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • More prefab homes to be built as red tape cut
    The construction sector is being freed up to allow more homes to be built more quickly as the Government cuts through some of the red tape of the Building Act.  “Every New Zealander deserves a warm, dry, safe home and old inefficiencies in the Building Act make building slow and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago