Why do they hate us?

Written By: - Date published: 11:09 am, July 21st, 2016 - 73 comments
Categories: colonialism, defence, Europe, International, war - Tags:

“Since the beginning of 2015, the Middle East, Africa and Asia have seen nearly 50 times more deaths from terrorism than Europe and the Americas” so reports the Washington Post.

The death tolls of attacks in Western countries pale in comparison to daily attacks in other parts of the world. In a few frenzied days in late June and early July, three Islamic-State-linked attacks killed over 350 people. On June 28, three attackers detonated their suicide vests at Istanbul’s Ataturk Airport and killed 45 people. On July 1, Bangladesh suffered its worst terrorist attack in history when gunmen killed 20 hostages at a Dhaka restaurant. On July 3, nearly 300 died in a busy Baghdad shopping district.

Muslims and coloured people in poorer countries are by far the victims of terrorism, even though the media focus is on casualties amongst wealthier, whiter peoples. The WaPo infographic says it all (the little yellow bars facing upwards are the fatalities that Europe and the Americas have been hit with; the big bars facing downwards, the rest of the world):

wapo terrorist data

The article goes further and says “Outside large attacks in France and Belgium, attacks in eastern Ukraine account for most terrorism casualties in Europe, according to Jane’s Terrorism and Insurgency Center. ”

It’s worth noting that attacks on civilian centres in the eastern (Donbass) region of Ukraine have been by anti-rebel Kiev Government forces including openly neo-Nazi military units and possible airstrikes by the Ukrainian airforce on apartment buildings. (The rebels in Eastern Ukraine do not have access to an airforce).

Also worth noting that: the very many civilians killed by US drone strikes in Afghanistan, Pakistan and other countries have NOT been included in these figures. To the local villagers, townsfolk and even wedding parties affected by these indescriminate western military strikes without warning and out of the blue, it’s nothing less than terrorism.

 

73 comments on “Why do they hate us? ”

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  1. Paul 1
    21 July 2016 at 11:34 am

    From the horse’s mouth

  2. Psycho Milt 2
    21 July 2016 at 11:59 am

    The rebels in Eastern Ukraine do not have access to an airforce.

    Er, hello? The Russian Federation has a very large air force. It’s reluctant to use it in eastern Ukraine because it couldn’t pretend “rebels” were carrying out the actions, but it certainly does have access to an air force.

    Also, the biggest attack on a civilian target in eastern Ukraine so far was the shooting down of a Malaysian airliner by “rebel” forces. History’s not going to be kind to Putin over that one – he needs better thugs.

    • te reo putake 2.1
      21 July 2016 at 12:12 pm

      It’s a shame there wasn’t room in the various reports to include the targeting of hospitals in Syria by Russian supplied or flown jets. That’s some top notch terrorism right there.

      • One Two 2.1.1
        21 July 2016 at 12:32 pm

        The ‘cry for balance’

        • Colonial Viper 2.1.1.1
          21 July 2016 at 12:39 pm

          Er, hello? The Russian Federation has a very large air force. It’s reluctant to use it in eastern Ukraine because it couldn’t pretend “rebels” were carrying out the actions, but it certainly does have access to an air force.

          Er hello???

          The Donbass rebels do not have an airforce.

          The Russians have a large airforce and it has not been used in the Ukraine. NATO radars cover all of the Ukraine.

          Therefore, the destruction of Donbass apartment blocks was most likely by the Ukranian airforce directed from Kiev.

          Also, the biggest attack on a civilian target in eastern Ukraine so far was the shooting down of a Malaysian airliner by “rebel” forces.

          Incorrect. No clear evidence has come forward of this, and the Ukranian military operate those exact same BUK launchers.

          • Psycho Milt 2.1.1.1.1
            21 July 2016 at 1:01 pm

            The “Donbass rebels” are subcontractors to the Russian government. As such, they have access to an air force just like they have access to regular ground forces, they’re just unable to use the air force because it would blow their cover. That does mean it was almost certainly Ukrainian aircraft that hit civilian targets.

            Re the shooting down of Malaysian Airlines flight 17, the fact the Ukrainian military also uses BUKs is irrelevant. As we’ve just agreed, there were no aircraft the Ukrainian military needed to defend themselves against – the Russian military and its subcontractors, on the other hand… And no clear evidence has been found because the Soviet, sorry the Russian government vetoed a UN investigation into what happened.

            • Colonial Viper 2.1.1.1.1.1
              21 July 2016 at 2:23 pm

              The MH17 crash is being investigated by a multi-national board of investigation guided by long standing ICAO guidelines.

              http://sputniknews.com/europe/20160717/1043160065/years-inquiry-mh17.html

              • te reo putake …
                21 July 2016 at 2:45 pm

                It would save a lot of time if the mafiosi in Moscow simply told the truth. But if they won’t even do that for their drugged up sportspeople, they’re hardly likely to fess up to being a party to mass murder, are they?

                • Colonial Viper …
                  21 July 2016 at 3:06 pm

                  Hi TRP, no need to wait for Moscow, you know.

                  US/NATO has full radar coverage and satellite imagery of the Ukraine and of the shoot down, including satellite technology which can home in on the IR signal of missile launches. Not only that, NATO has full radio interceptions of exactly which units from what side, said what, immediately around the whole incident.

                  They are welcome to contribute that evidence to the investigation if they want to let the truth about the incident be known.

                  Although, I suspect that the evidence makes their fascist neo-nazi friends that they support in the Kiev Government look bad, so they haven’t.

                • reason …
                  21 July 2016 at 7:20 pm

                  I’m boycotting watching the corrupt and political Olympic game s …..

                  Carl Lewis, Flojo etc etc were all drug cheats ………..

                  And on topic …. we would have to arrest our own war criminals if we are to show we are serious about terrorism.

                  • D'Esterre …
                    22 July 2016 at 12:01 pm

                    trp: “Hey, dicks…”

                    In my view, when commenters start name-calling, it’s usually because they’ve run out of substantive arguments. And sure enough… What on earth has that link to do with any of the previous debate?

                    • te reo putake …
                      22 July 2016 at 12:12 pm

                      My substantive argument is that you are being a dick. And the link is the names of the people killed by the Russian missile. It has everything to do with the thread. Your lack of understanding of that has everything to do why you can be seen as a dick. Understand now?

                • D'Esterre …
                  22 July 2016 at 12:23 am

                  trp: “It would save a lot of time if the mafiosi in Moscow simply told the truth. But if they won’t even do that for their drugged up sportspeople, they’re hardly likely to fess up to being a party to mass murder, are they?”

                  Good grief: you don’t really believe that stuff, do you? Don’t you recognise propaganda when you see it? Heck, you probably also believe that Putin just marched into the Crimea and annexed it unaided, don’t you!

                  • te reo putake …
                    22 July 2016 at 7:54 am

                    Your opinion is particularly stupid. Have a nice day, anyway.

                  • D'Esterre …
                    22 July 2016 at 10:12 pm

                    trp: “And the link is the names of the people killed by the Russian missile.”

                    Well, yes: we already know that, though. I was expecting something new, that would further the debate. Rehearsing the names of the dead – god rest their souls – does nothing toward that end.

            • D'Esterre 2.1.1.1.1.2
              22 July 2016 at 12:19 am

              Psycho Milt: Stop with the propaganda. You’re doing Uncle Sam’s work for him.

      • adam 2.1.2
        21 July 2016 at 12:36 pm

        Yeap like the other Imperial idiots from the USA, and their buddies the English doing the same thing.

        Oh look, indiscriminate use of air warfare is bloody stupid, who would have thought. ..

        14 odd years of Drone strikes anyone?

      • Colonial Viper 2.1.3
        21 July 2016 at 2:26 pm

        It’s a shame there wasn’t room in the various reports to include the targeting of hospitals in Syria by Russian supplied or flown jets. That’s some top notch terrorism right there.

        More croc tears from TRP; both the USA and Turkey (the largest European NATO military power) have been willing to arm, fund and train fundamentalist Islamic terrorists like ISIS in Syria and sacrifice 400,000 Syrian lives in order to achieve their goal of regime changing al-Assad in Damascus.

        Also see this piece where the US State Department refused in press conference to say if they had any evidence of Russian attacks against Syrian hospitals.

        Quite funny to watch the State Dept tap dance around the question.

        • McFlock 2.1.3.1
          21 July 2016 at 3:26 pm

          Question in the video was “Do you have any evidence that russia bombed hospitals in Syria?”

          The guy explicitly said they had seen information that led them to believe that the Russians had hit a hospital, but equally refused to release operational and intelligence information in that press conference.

          Your description does not match the content of the video.

          • Colonial Viper 2.1.3.1.1
            21 July 2016 at 3:59 pm

            That’s why I put the video up, so people don’t have to rely on me, or on your (rather skewed) interpretations, but they can see the State Dept official tap dancing around for themselves.

            As the RT reporter said – the Syrian Red Cross was not aware of any such attack.

            • McFlock 2.1.3.1.1.1
              21 July 2016 at 4:39 pm

              That’s nice. The “Syrian Red Cross”, she said.
              Gotta love that attention to detail.

              Anyhoo, SARC might not have been aware of any such attack, but they’re not the only ones with hospitals in Syria, especially in rebel areas. All the state dept guy said was that the US had seen enough information to conclude that such an attack had occurred. You might call that “tap dancing”, but it’s pretty simple and clear to me.

              • Colonial Viper …
                21 July 2016 at 5:55 pm

                Sure, in a Syrian town somewhere some hospital was hit that the State Department couldn’t reveal for operational reasons, even days or weeks after the fact. May as well take them on their word for it.

                • McFlock …
                  21 July 2016 at 6:13 pm

                  Again, you’re misrepresenting the situation.

                  The allegations relate to specific hospitals, and are quite well known.

                  What the US will not release is its basis for believing the Russians had a hand in the bombing. Whether this is because they used spies, or had SF in the area, or had constant satellite coverage, that is what they aren’t saying.

                  • Colonial Viper …
                    21 July 2016 at 6:31 pm

                    I was talking about the case referred to in the state department press conference McFlock. Don’t move the goal posts with new incidents not covered in that youtube clip and claim that I am misrepresenting.

                    Bottom line is the Russian approach to Syria has been to destroy every legitimate terrorist base that they can identify. And mistakes do get made.

                    But let’s not forget that multiple western airforces have also been (illegally) operating in Syrian airspace and we know that they have a long track record of droning and hitting civilian targets from Fallujah to Kunar.

                    Bottom line is that Turkey/NATO/US, Russia and Israel have full radar and other surveillance coverage of the airspace and they know exactly which planes were where and when.

                    • McFlock …
                      21 July 2016 at 6:44 pm

                      holy fuck, just how many hospitals has russia been accused of blowing up?

                      Fair call on the goalposts, but in my screen the date didn’t come up fully when I played it embedded.

                      But to be fair also, the clip wasn’t exactly clear which allegations were being referred to.

                      But I see now it’s “mistakes do get made”. Just another CV double standard comparing Russia’s multiple hospital bombings with one US bombing in the same period – which the US acknowledged and investigated and determined some significant systemic failings that needed to be addressed.

                      As for your faith in some sort of hi-resolution radar panopticon, maybe the degree of its accuracy is the sort of “operational” specific that the state guy didn’t want to discuss. Or maybe you’re just pulling shit out of your arse again.

                    • McFlock …
                      21 July 2016 at 6:57 pm

                      Ah, it seems it’s this spate of mysteriously exploding hospitals that prompted the October question.

                      Jeez, who knew hospitals were so “mistake”-prone?

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      21 July 2016 at 7:23 pm

                      But I see now it’s “mistakes do get made”. Just another CV double standard comparing Russia’s multiple hospital bombings with one US bombing in the same period

                      One US bombing?

                      You gotta be shitting.

                      US drone operations and airstrikes continue throughout the world on a daily basis, and hit civvies all the time. Let the US investigate another wedding party droned and offer a couple of hundred dollars compensation.

                      And more to the point, Russia was in Syria cleaning up the regime change mess that Turkey (NATO partner), Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the USA concocted by feeding arms, money, and thousands of foreign fighters and Islamic jihadists into Syria in a vain attempt to take out al-Assad.

                    • McFlock …
                      21 July 2016 at 7:31 pm

                      so now you’re shifting the goalposts beyond hospitals?

                      Because are you incredibly sure that, except for hospitals, your mate putin has been really careful at avoiding civilian deaths?

                      Russia is in syria for realpolitik motives. Probably similar to most of the other nations involved. It’s not some sort of picking-up-litter operation.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      21 July 2016 at 7:43 pm

                      Russia is in Syria to clean up the west’s anti-Assad Islamic jihadist based regime change programme.

                      Is it realpolitik for Russia? Of course. They were not going to allow the US and Saudi Arabia and that great stable democracy Turkey turn secular Syria into yet another Islamist failed state to be used by the west to export Muslim terrorists to its soft southern underbelly.

                      Because are you incredibly sure that, except for hospitals, your mate putin has been really careful at avoiding civilian deaths?

                      Not sure at all, probably just following the same standards set by NATO and the USA.

                    • McFlock …
                      22 July 2016 at 10:17 am

                      lol

                      Nice line about exporting terrorists, shame that the boston marathon bombers were chechens. But the russians’ main security concern about Syria is their access to their only mediterranean port and their only friend left in the region (especially as India’s beginning to pivot towards the US).

                      They have no more interest in a stable Syria than they do a stable Iraq, Pakistan, Libyia, or Afghanistan. Except some military facilities that they’s got a nice contract on with Assad, their dictator of choice.

      • weston 2.1.4
        21 July 2016 at 5:44 pm

        If true then seems they didnt have a monopoly on hitting hospitals did they ??

        • McFlock 2.1.4.1
          21 July 2016 at 6:00 pm

          If true?
          Hitting, no.
          Denying and failing to investigate? They’re a world-leader.

          • Wayne 2.1.4.1.1
            21 July 2016 at 8:49 pm

            Just to add something here. Drones are fundamentally more precise than fast jets. They fly slower, they have a loiter ability, their video can be analysed. The weapons are much smaller and precise.
            In contrast fast jets are just that, fast, they pass over the target at 500 mph typically in single pass, the bombs are bigger, literally a 100 times (2000 lb, often unguided, compared to 50 lb).
            So a Russian air strike is inevitably going to be more destructive than US drone strike, even if both nations have the same intent and purpose.

            • lprent 2.1.4.1.1.1
              21 July 2016 at 9:38 pm

              Yep. Not to mention that the bomb electronics and aiming systems are pretty crap on the Russian birds.

              • Dennis Merwood …
                22 July 2016 at 7:46 pm

                lprent, this is surely just rubbish you pulled out of your you know where!
                I challenge you to provide posters on this forum with any article detailing that Russian birds have “crap bomb electronics and aiming systems”. You and TRP need to stop impugning your credibility by spouting this Russian bashing Pablum.

                • McFlock …
                  22 July 2016 at 8:16 pm

                  so they really meant to bomb all those hospitals then?

                  Anyway, here’s one article. Google shows many like it.

                • lprent …
                  23 July 2016 at 12:11 am

                  Try Janes. But ANY publication comparing military hardware will make similar points about the differences between US and western Europe’s military hardware and that of Russia.

                  The reason is mainly attitude. But mostly to do with the emphasis that the military of the west places on developing military firmware to enhance professional non conscript armed forces.

              • D'Esterre …
                22 July 2016 at 10:19 pm

                lprent: “Not to mention that the bomb electronics and aiming systems are pretty crap on the Russian birds.”

                And yet, and yet…. Now remind me: who is it supplies the rockets and related technology to get astronauts to the space station, on account of the Americans can no longer do it? Doesn’t sound consistent with crap anything on Russian aircraft, military or not.

                • lprent …
                  23 July 2016 at 12:01 am

                  Different traits towards innovation.

                  That is more about lack of innovation and the stability that brings to supply chains.

                  The Americans have a obsession about innovation and diverting to new things rather than improving what they have mastered.

                  The Russians hang on to old designs and incrementally upgrade.

                  Getting to low earth orbits was something that was mastered by the late 1970s. What the Russians have would be familiar to any astronaut of that era.

                  The US moved to heavy lift with the shuttle and putting up large space stations – then discarded it. Plus exploiting the electronics and software in satellite systems. These days they are developing reusable launch visitor private sector.

                  Which approach is better is a cause of debate. But as a bystander, I wouldn’t like to be near a Russian target. As far as I can tell they make few attempts at limiting collateral damage.

            • D'Esterre 2.1.4.1.1.2
              22 July 2016 at 11:11 pm

              Wayne: “Drones are fundamentally more precise than fast jets. They fly slower, they have a loiter ability, their video can be analysed. The weapons are much smaller and precise.”

              I’m sure that’s a great comfort to the innocents – wedding parties and the like – wrongly targeted by said drones.

        • D'Esterre 2.1.4.2
          22 July 2016 at 11:48 pm

          McFlock: “Nice line about exporting terrorists, shame that the boston marathon bombers were chechens.”

          I guess that you don’t mean it to, but that line comes across as a bit callous. It also suggests that you aren’t well-informed about what’s been going on in Chechnya. The Russians have been fighting sunni muslim extremism there for many years, though in recent times, many of those extremists have gone to join ISIS in Syria. The history of Chechnya is complex and violent.

          Before the bombing, the Russians warned US authorities about those two, but their warning was ignored. And, qu’on dit, the rest is history. Sadly.

    • D'Esterre 2.2
      22 July 2016 at 12:16 am

      Psycho Milt: “Er, hello? The Russian Federation has a very large air force. It’s reluctant to use it in eastern Ukraine because it couldn’t pretend “rebels” were carrying out the actions, but it certainly does have access to an air force.

      Also, the biggest attack on a civilian target in eastern Ukraine so far was the shooting down of a Malaysian airliner by “rebel” forces. History’s not going to be kind to Putin over that one – he needs better thugs.”

      Russia hasn’t been involved in air attacks in the Donbass. There is a ceasefire in force there, though it’s systematically breached by the Ukraine military which, as CV says, has neo-Nazi units operating within it.

      MH17 wasn’t shot down by either Russia or the rebels. It was the Ukraine military: it has form for that sort of thing – having shot down a civilian aircraft over the Black Sea some years back – and it has the buk missiles. Be very sceptical about anything that John Kerry or any other US official asserts about Russia in respect of the Ukraine: most of it’s propaganda.

      You are aware of the chain of events that took place in the Ukraine from early 2014? It’d be worth a refresher, if you’ve forgotten, or don’t know.

      In the month immediately following the shoot-down of MH17, we flew to Austria from Japan. Our flight path (redirected from over the Ukraine) took us over Russia, almost as far north as Archangelsk, before we turned and headed for Vienna. A few weeks later, we made the reverse trip on the same flight path. Then in early 2015, we made that trip again. Are you seriously suggesting that international aviation would have redirected commercial flights over Russia, were there the slightest likelihood that it was given to taking potshots at them? That’s just not going to happen.

      Here’s a thing to remember: a big chunk of the contemporary narrative about Russia is rehashed cold war propaganda; the US has spent the years since the fall of the iron curtain trying to provoke Russia. Not successful, thus far.

      • Psycho Milt 2.2.1
        22 July 2016 at 7:45 am

        MH17 wasn’t shot down by either Russia or the rebels. It was the Ukraine military…

        So, on the one hand we have professional soldiers whose opponents have no air capability, and on the other we have a bunch of thugs with Russian military equipment and advisors, who are facing air attacks, and who’ve successfully brought down several aircraft already, and one of whom puts a post on VKontakte just after the airliner was hit saying his guys took out an Antonov transport (and removes it once the news gets out). But, yeah, totally the Ukrainian military, obviously.

        Are you seriously suggesting that international aviation would have redirected commercial flights over Russia, were there the slightest likelihood that it was given to taking potshots at them?

        Nope. It would be insane to suggest either the Russian or Ukrainian military would randomly shoot down airliners for no reason (although that doesn’t seem to be stopping you). However, if you sub-contract fighting in eastern Ukraine to local dumbasses and give them sophisticated anti-aircraft weaponry, this is the kind of thing you could expect to happen.

        • D'Esterre 2.2.1.1
          22 July 2016 at 10:28 am

          Psycho Milt: “So, on the one hand we have professional soldiers whose opponents have no air capability, and on the other we have a bunch of thugs with Russian military equipment and advisors, who are facing air attacks, and who’ve successfully brought down several aircraft already, and one of whom puts a post on VKontakte just after the airliner was hit saying his guys took out an Antonov transport (and removes it once the news gets out).”

          That’s propaganda. It was the Kiev government which attacked the Donbass, following the declaration of independence on the part of ethnic Russians. The rebels were irregulars, who, up until just a couple of months before the MH17 shoot-down, had been plumbers and electricians and the like. No uniforms: some of them were wearing crocs on their feet, and most were wearing civilian clothing. They had access to weaponry, but none of them at that stage had the technical expertise to operate a buk missile. No doubt they still don’t.

          https://consortiumnews.com/2016/07/19/fraud-alleged-in-nyts-mh-17-report/

          Give some thought to what that attack was like for the citizens of the Donbass: to have your own government turn on you in that fashion. These are people just like us; how would we feel and how would we react? How would you feel about being accused of such a heinous crime, even though you didn’t – and probably still don’t – have the wherewithal to carry it out? A most pernicious aspect of US propaganda is its success in dehumanising the victims of its power games.

          This part of the world has traditionally been Russian, though political borders ebb and flow. It’s really important not to take as gospel the one-dimensional, Disneyland US view of the Ukraine and Russia.

          “It would be insane to suggest either the Russian or Ukrainian military would randomly shoot down airliners for no reason (although that doesn’t seem to be stopping you).”

          In the years since, the speculation that Russia shot that flight down has morphed into an assertion that this is what happened, despite an absence of evidence to back it up. But nobody has come up with a plausible reason for Russia doing such a thing; so taking potshots for unspecified motives becomes the default explanation.

          Please desist from repeating US propaganda. We have family connections to the Donbass: these are our people.

          • te reo putake 2.2.1.1.1
            22 July 2016 at 11:13 am

            Nobody is saying that Russia shot the jet down. Russia supplied the weapon that the local militia used to shoot the plane down.

            • D'Esterre 2.2.1.1.1.1
              22 July 2016 at 10:07 pm

              trp: “Nobody is saying that Russia shot the jet down.”

              Not so. it’s a very widely-held view, often heard on news reports.

              “Russia supplied the weapon that the local militia used to shoot the plane down.”

              No. The weapon was an older model no longer used by Russia. It would be wildly overstating things to call the fighters at that time “militia”. As was pointed out earlier, at that stage, the rebels were very much irregulars who’d been fighting for a couple of months only and hadn’t much in the way of technical know how. A career in plumbing or as a teacher isn’t much cop as preparation for guerilla warfare,

          • Psycho Milt 2.2.1.1.2
            22 July 2016 at 11:56 am

            They had access to weaponry, but none of them at that stage had the technical expertise to operate a buk missile. No doubt they still don’t.

            That is of course one way an airliner can accidentally get shot down – give some ordinary bozos sophisticated anti-aircraft missiles and only some brief training on how to operate them.

            Give some thought to what that attack was like for the citizens of the Donbass: to have your own government turn on you in that fashion.

            You mean, what was it like to have your government set the military on you just because you mounted an armed uprising against it? What it was like is best described as “predictable,” I would have thought. Predictable but perhaps not all that scary when the Russian Federation is committing troops to back you up.

            In the years since, the speculation that Russia shot that flight down has morphed into an assertion that this is what happened, despite an absence of evidence to back it up.

            Some people might be claiming Russia shot down MH17, but I’m not one of them.

            • D'Esterre 2.2.1.1.2.1
              22 July 2016 at 10:58 pm

              PM: “give some ordinary bozos sophisticated anti-aircraft missiles and only some brief training on how to operate them.”

              That sort of thing only happens in Hollywood movies. Luckily. At that time, the rebels had only just started fighting the Ukraine military – and the coup-supporting neo-nazi militias before that. They were very inexperienced with weaponry. The buk used to shoot down MH17 was an older model no longer used by Russia. That information comes from reportage by the investigators.

              “what was it like to have your government set the military on you just because you mounted an armed uprising against it? ”

              Now I’m certain that you aren’t aware of what’s been happening in the Ukraine over the last couple of years. Here’s what actually happened:

              Ethnic Russians in the east opposed the neo-nazi coup in Kiev, declaring independence and their intention to hold a referendum, as had happened in Crimea.

              The coup supporters started initiating violence in the east immediately after the coup. When the mobs loyal to the coup failed to suppress opposition, the coup government announced the military operation. That was in April.

              The mobs of coup supporters were neo-nazi militias: if you had seen footage of what was going on there, you’d have seen the swastikas.

              I reiterate: how would any of us feel, were the government of our country, and its militias, to initiate an armed response to a declaration of independence? You’ll be aware that there have been various South Island voices suggesting that it should secede from the rest of NZ. We would be appalled at any suggestion that such an attempt would be put down by armed force. We would expect it to be managed by means of diplomacy and negotiation.

              The ethnic Russians of the east saw the speed with which the Crimea took steps to secede, and succeeded in its petition to Russia for annexation. And that the annexation took place with barely a shot having been fired. They hoped for a similar outcome; it is the great shame of the coup government in Kiev, that the situation has deteriorated into the sort of violence we’ve seen in the news reports. Or evidently haven’t seen, in your case.

              Please refrain from dehumanising the people of east Ukraine, who’ve been victims of their own government. Remember they’re people just like us.

  3. NoThanks 3
    21 July 2016 at 12:04 pm

    Those Algerians and Morrocans in France and other European countries blab about being looked down on them. If they look into the mirror closely, they might realise why.

    If one look at all groups of immigrants in different countries, many are doing just fine, some are less represented in politics, nevertheless, the median level of education and income and wealth is on par or even higher than the local hosts.

    It begs one to think, if others can do it, and only Algerians and Morrocan and Tunisians are crying out loud for being “discriminated” and are mostly high school drop outs, maybe it’s not the hosts’ problem, it’s them who are uneducated thugs who can do no good. And one wonders why gave citizenship to foreign cheap labours, they should have done the work and gone back to their countries. They have no capitals and no education, which are what countries look for when they want immigrants.

    • Colonial Viper 3.1
      21 July 2016 at 12:41 pm

      governance clue: you can’t deal with massive discontent and restiveness amongst your own population by writing it off as someone else’s problem.

      • NoThanks 3.1.1
        21 July 2016 at 1:26 pm

        Cheap labour with no capital no assets and no skills should never be given residency, the policy should be to get the work done and salary paid, and au revoir.

    • McFlock 3.2
      21 July 2016 at 12:46 pm

      Irony: whatever education you had was woefully inadequate.

    • Stuart Munro 3.3
      22 July 2016 at 12:51 am

      You may have the wrong profile – many Algerians are aggressive self-educators and they often get post grad qualifications. This is a response to the vile colonial government excluding them from highschools back in the day.

  4. Ad 4
    21 July 2016 at 2:32 pm

    When capitalism implodes, the future may well be shaped by Islamic economic values including frugality, self-sacrifice, hospitality, contentment, banning of gambling, Sharia-compliant banking and finance.

    Plus banning pornography.

    But then also other stuff. Oops.

    • adam 4.1
      21 July 2016 at 2:51 pm

      Yeah it’s the other stuff that has me worried.

      To counter some what,

      I’m quite hopeful of some of the changes going on at the Vatican bank latley. Also by a Pope with a bit more of a holistic world view and engaged with people.

      Sheesh almost slipped and said gnostic world view. That is me just being overly hopeful. 🙂

  5. Colonial Viper 5
    21 July 2016 at 2:38 pm

    That’s what you get when the West supports killing or regime changing generations of moderate or secular Middle Eastern leaders. Gaddafi and al-Assad, Saddam Hussein, Mossadegh, Saddat, to name some.

  6. save nz 6
    21 July 2016 at 3:43 pm

    Great post. +100

  7. Bill 7
    21 July 2016 at 7:20 pm

    A post remarking on the disproportionate number of deaths due to terrorism being among poor and brown people in countries far away from here and much removed from “our ways’…

    …and it gets turned into a black hat/white hat ‘blame game’ that plays into some weird “armchair bound” point scoring exercise. Ah well.

    Y’know, they’re all the bad guys folks…all of them. And the only other thing they have in common is that they’re bad guys constantly seeking to cast ‘the other side’ as the truly bad guys. Why take sides?

    People die. Mostly in far away places that aren’t much like here.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 7.1
      21 July 2016 at 7:31 pm

      The murders serve two purposes: to keep “us” hating “them, and to keep “them” hating “us”. To cloud our judgement.

      Abandon blame: these weapons have no target. Perhaps that’s why they hate us.

      • Macro 7.1.1
        22 July 2016 at 12:41 am

        Don’t forget the other factor for the promotion of terrorism. To create fear. One of the first principles to keep the masses quiet is to create fear. Then you (the elite who make the rules) can make as many rules as you like and keep the bewildered herd in control.

      • D'Esterre 7.1.2
        22 July 2016 at 11:19 pm

        OAB: “Perhaps that’s why they hate us.”

        I’m assuming the title was used as irony. Though – as a matter of interest – I had to explain its provenance to a member of this family who, at the time of the 9/11 attacks, was too young to be exposed to such events. I censored the TV coverage at that time; children don’t need to see that sort of thing.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 7.1.2.1
          24 July 2016 at 5:41 am

          To be clear, I’m saying that the people who like to apportion blame don’t much care for people who know that blame is useless.

    • Psycho Milt 7.2
      22 July 2016 at 9:02 am

      A post remarking on the disproportionate number of deaths due to terrorism being among poor and brown people in countries far away from here and much removed from “our ways’…

      It’s in the eye of the beholder, I guess. I saw a post yet again pushing propaganda for authoritarian regimes and trying to pretend western democracies are responsible for terrorist attacks (on that subject the post’s title speaks for itself).

  8. RRM 8
    21 July 2016 at 8:56 pm

    The first muslim attempt to subjugate western europe was repulsed in 732 at the Battle of Tours by Charles Martel and his army.

    So this has been going on since long before US Drone strikes were a thing.

    It is manifest destiny that the true faith will eventually dominate the whole world, infidel lands included…

    But SURPRISE! The standard thinks white male privileged neo-liberal bastards are to blame for bringing it upon themselves. How did I know that was going to be the case?

    [lprent: The Standard is a program on a machine. It doesn’t think, have opinions or read history. However I do, and I don’t like idiots who try to insist that machines can think or who try to be blameless by ascribing characteristics to their own made up groups.

    Banned for 6 weeks for stupidity. Read the policy ]

  9. Ralf Crown 9
    22 July 2016 at 4:42 pm

    The “Donbass rebels” are Russians who refused to subordinate themselves to a US controlled and with violence appointed government in Kiev. As long as US and EU terrorism continues in the middle east, terrorism will continue and escalate in the USA and EU.

    • D'Esterre 9.1
      22 July 2016 at 11:03 pm

      RC: “The “Donbass rebels” are Russians who refused to subordinate themselves to a US controlled and with violence appointed government in Kiev.”

      Exactly so.

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