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Act’s Euthanasia Bill

Written By: - Date published: 10:05 am, June 12th, 2017 - 83 comments
Categories: act - Tags: ,

There’s going to be a debate about euthanasia this election.

The Health Select Committee hasn’t released its report into the issue.

However, the bill has been pulled from the ballot as a Private Members Bill, from Act. Here’s the text.

In the text, no doctor is forced to do it.

There’s plenty of written consents throughout the process, with two doctors.

Complaints about doctors using this system will get reported to Parliament once a year.

The Act has to be reviewed every 5 years.

One thing to watch. If the forms are filled out in any way improperly, the punishment as drafted is a term of imprisonment not exceeding three months and a fine not exceeding $10,000

Also, there’s no discussion about coercion or costs as a driver, so hopefully the Select Committee report covers that.

Some opponents:

Some supporting:

83 comments on “Act’s Euthanasia Bill”

  1. Gosman 1

    The ACT party has no formal position on this bill. It is David Seymour’s private members bill.

  2. dukeofurl 2

    Palliative care Nurses of NZ opposed ? Thats significant

    http://www.pcnnz.co.nz/ ( very little info , unless you join)

    but their statement on Euthanasia is here – note spelling !

    Click to access Euthanasia-position-statement-2012.pdf

    It would be interesting to see if most of their leadership is from the catholic church adherents

    • Gosman 2.1

      Euthanasia in the palliative care industry already exists. It is just done on the quiet via morphine.

      • dukeofurl 2.1.1

        Yes but isnt that for those with only a few days or at most couple weeks left.
        No doctor would risk it with someone who was still 6 months to go.

      • Stunned Mullet 2.1.2

        There is some truth in that.

    • It’s not as significant as you’d think, really. Most people involved in end-of-life care oppose euthanasia because they believe in extending and improving the quality of life, so there’s no way to write a bill that will please them.

  3. P 3

    *Euthanasia

    [Oops corrected now – MS]

    • The title is still wrong BTW.

      [lprent: Corrected ALL instances. Including the tags. And except the slug… That takes too much work to do from work as my personal laptop is at home running my email system temporarily. ]

  4. McFlock 4

    Also, there’s no discussion about coercion or costs as a driver, so hopefully the Select Committee report covers that.

    In that case the bill fails to address the most significant problem with the practise it seeks to legalise.

    • Yeah, my concern is that we have to be very careful that this doesn’t become anything resembling a slippery slope where people end their lives to avoid being a burden, or because they feel lonely, or other problems that should be remedied rather than simply “solved” by what at that point is an assisted suicide without any of the actual mercy that justifies the practice of euthanasia.

      Similar laws overseas have begun to have this problem, in addition to “death tourism,” which any NZ law should safeguard against, too.

      • marty mars 4.1.1

        I had a friend who after bad cancer diagnosis went home to The Netherlands, had a party, said goodbye and died.

        Would be very good to see some assessment of what happens in other countries.

      • simonm 4.1.2

        “…in addition to “death tourism,” which any NZ law should safeguard against, too.”

        The law will only apply to NZ citizens and Permanent Residents. There you go, I’ve fixed that non-issue for you.

  5. Muttonbird 5

    Anyone who thinks Seymour and the rest of the far right are driving this on compassionate grounds has rocks in their head.

    This is about cutting health costs and freeing up beds.

    • Timbeau 5.1

      I’m with Muttonbird. No legislation, no matter how carefully drafted, can avoid the problem of people reluctantly consenting to die so that they are no longer “a burden”. That’s the nature of humanity: we are a burden to one another, and it’s our privilege to get to carry one another. https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/02/26/but-rick-santorums-sorta-right-about-dutch-euthanasia/amp/&ved=0ahUKEwja9eOPl7fUAhUGErwKHSy9AcMQFghhMAg&usg=AFQjCNE3oFg8wSnmIQ61VuvgAfmBwGNNdA&sig2=2mHweV6Tocc-1Kr_-X2cIg

      • Uh, if you restrict euthanasia to the terminally ill, that problem at the very least shrinks into a tertiary consideration.

        There’s not “no way,” but it is complicated and depends what kind of mercy/dignity you’re looking to promote with a euthanasia bill.

        And no, I actually disagree with Muttonbird. This is Seymour’s “freedom” (for rich white people) obsession taken to its logical conclusion, where the government isn’t allowed to regulate against someone helping you kill yourself when you’re in a situation that’s never likely to improve.

        That’s not to say such a bill couldn’t be a front for that kind of motivation, I just don’t believe it from someone as obsessed as Seymour.

    • Wayne 5.2

      A cheap and baseless attack by Muttonbird. Seymor’s bill is entirely consistent with Act’s libertarian philosophy.

      I really get sick and tired of the smug assumption of the left (or at least by many of them) of their moral superiority. And that only base motivations actuate the right.

      Having just read Wild Kapito’s struggle (during the edit phase of this post), Kia kaha and Aroha.

      • tc 5.2.1

        Yes because it’s more to do with looking libertarian without having to walk the talk.

        This will be kicked down the road till after the GE, a nice stage for the pollies to parade.

      • Muttonbird 5.2.2

        I’m sorry Wayne but all evidence I see is that base motivations do drive the right on social issues. I’m sure they are just as loving on an individual level in the family home but their views on community and society are morally defunct. The left kills them on this.

      • peterlepaysan 5.2.3

        Since when have libertarians been concerned about human suffering?

  6. adam 6

    The T4 program was started the same way, just ask any Gypsy, Mormon, Gay, Lesbian or Jewish historian how that worked out.

    This is a very dark road, painted as something humane.

    • simonm 6.1

      Rubbish. You’re taking one the darkest periods in human history and attempting to conflate it with the voluntary act of assisted dying that patients request themselves to end their suffering. They are in no way related.

      • adam 6.1.1

        You do know that everyone thought Germany was one of the most civilise countries in the world. You do know that getting to the killing machine was incremental, and one step in that process was a voluntary euthanasia law? Which gave rise to the T4 program, but yeah were to enlightened, it can’t happen here.

        • joe90 6.1.1.1

          voluntary euthanasia law?

          The widespread so called mercy killing of the sick and disabled that morphed in the final solution was preceded by voluntary euthanasia, really?.

          • Muttonbird 6.1.1.1.1

            You seem to be posting a bit more outside of your usual incessant diet of Trump links. Has the topic of assisted dying in New Zealand wakened you from your slumber?

            • joe90 6.1.1.1.1.1

              Trump’s on the verge of depriving twenty something million folk of health care, but I’m sure you have a tractor to piss and moan about.

              /

              • Muttonbird

                I can’t do anything about Trump and quite frankly, that 20 million in the US are deprived of health care doesn’t really interest me with respect to posting on this site. The state of US politics doesn’t impinge on the wellbeing of my community one bit.

                Charity begins at home, etc.

                • joe90

                  But you’re interested in what I choose to post about, aren’t you.

                  • Muttonbird

                    You can’t miss it. For months now you’ve posted nothing but Americanisms and Trumpfacts. I see it and scroll right past because that has nothing to do with improving NZ society.

                    Then you commented on my post about tractors on state highways and I think I’ve seen recently you comment on something else NZ related.

                    I noticed it because it’s so unusual. Your recent thoughts about your own country are welcome and you should do more of it – it might help.

                    • joe90

                      I’m deeply involved in my own wider community, making my way looking out for immediate whanau, doing my best for extended family and friends and trying to make a living while I’m at it

                      I don’t need an hysterical ninny with a reek of sanctimony about them telling me what I should and shouldn’t give a fuck about.

                      So if you don’t mind, would you kindly go fuck yourself. Thanx in advance.

                      [RL: Get out of the vortex …take today off.]

          • adam 6.1.1.1.2

            As it’s too hard to pick up a text, or indeed look on the internet. Here is an introduction page for you.

            https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005200

  7. Glenn 7

    “As of June 2016, human euthanasia is legal in the Netherlands, Belgium, Colombia, and Luxembourg. Assisted suicide is legal in Switzerland, Germany, Japan, Canada, and in the US states of Washington, Oregon, Colorado, Vermont, Montana, Washington DC, and California.
    Legality of euthanasia – Wikipedia”
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_euthanasia

    The unfortunate effect of NZs current laws is that to be certain of avoiding a painful death with many terminal illnesses one has to act while one is still well enough to do so. And by oneself to avoid implicating others.
    This is cruel and inhuman.

  8. Whispering Kate 8

    I am so totally opposed to this Bill. It is repugnant and a sign of a selfish nation wanting everything for me. Me for an easy death, me for passing on the buck to somebody else to do it for me, me for wanting it all including a date when to die. Me for not being able to face dying, for fearing dying and for not having the maturity and acceptance that this is the one certainty we have in this life and to just have the humility to accept it. This is playing science too far and playing into the ” freeing up beds and cost factor” to selfish family members who find their aging relatives an encumbrance they have no wish to be burdened with.

    Leave the medical profession right out of this – why the hell should they have to end up being state executioners for the selfish. It just sickens me the whole suggestion of euthanasia.

    • You don’t think requiring someone to tough it out when they’re in a literally hopeless situation is also a bit selfish, putting them in unnecessary pain to satisfy someone else’s moral convictions?

      If someone is genuinely going to die whatever we do, shouldn’t they have a choice of how? I would also point out it’s a little confused to say that wanting to die earlier is somehow fearing your own mortality. If anything, it’s embracing it, inviting it, but wanting it to come earlier so you can skip some pain. In principle I don’t see a problem there, although in practice I think there’s a lot of things to nail down before you can have a safe euthanasia law that doesn’t lead to a slippery slope.

      We’ve also started down this path already to some degree by accepting that people or their proxies can request a cessation of extraordinary care, such as coming off a ventilator. While there’s absolutely an emotional difference to the person carrying it out, it’s not particularly different in terms of the moral implications between letting someone die when you could have kept them alive, and actually helping them die in the way they want when they ask you to if they’re of sound mind and are going to die anyway without intervention.

      As for medical professionals, I think anyone who supports euthanasia agrees that any of them should be free to opt out of providing any assistance with it that they personally find immoral, and that those who do provide assistance need to be thoroughly reviewed to ensure their conduct is merciful and professional, as there is a very real type of serial killer that operates in a way very similar to euthanasia, (“angels of death”) and we don’t want any of them sneaking past us because the law has loosened the way for them.

      • greywarshark 8.1.1

        Matthew W
        Well said your point at end is good. I think younger people need to have mandatory counselling to see if there is something that could be done so they could keep on and have a reasonably happy life.

        As one gets older, going through the steps, creating a living will or whatever would be a requirement except for those who are unable to go through those steps and there needs to be careful concerned and documented approach.
        When life gets too hard and one can’t stand the constant knocks of inhumanity that seem endless, and living conditions are not good, it should be okay to choose to go even if health is not an issue.

        But just at the moment lets deal with those with terminal issues and get a set system, including doctors who can be reached by some private enquiry who are prepared to help. They will need protection as there are those who consider that no-one should have any rights for themselves, and that helping someone cross the river styx is at fault and they will persecute, despite if they are so tender for people, there are thousands of suffering humanity overseas, and, indeed in NZ who would be assisted by their positive attention.

        • As to counseling to ensure people aren’t being rash- I wouldn’t look specifically at young people if you want to check that people are making informed decisions, but rather base it on life expectancy. Someone who has months or weeks left is in roughly the same spot whether they’re 18 or 78, wheras someone with 20 years left also potentially has things they could do with those years if their condition allows, whether they’re, say, 16 or 56. I’d also be very careful that it’s not simply a roadblock that takes the decision away from people, and really offering them an actual service to see what their goals are in the time they’ve got left and whether there are ways to meet them while maybe still controlling how they die in a way that’s acceptable to them and lets them have their dignity, or their mercy, whichever is their goal in euthanasia.

          And yes, advance directives and so forth are excellent ideas and anyone with a terminal or degenerative condition should be offered that service as a matter of good practice.

          As for persecution, (I assume you deliberately meant that and not prosecution, which legalisation of euthanasia would address) there are existing laws that make certain tactics illegal and should provide adequate protection IMO, it’ll just need people to be aware of their rights.

          And yes, I potentially agree that just talking about the terminally ill may be unfair. But we should proceed with caution here as other countries have genuinely experienced a slippery slope on this issue.

    • greywarshark 8.2

      Whispering Kate
      By all means leave the medical profession out of it. Just let’s stop encouraging police to make raids on ordinary citizens making their own way through life and death.

      At present there is an oppressive system and unwillingness to let people go in their own way. Yet compare it to how complacent people are about people not having housing. There is a huge furore about it but still so little done, and caring people need to do it all the time, not just turn on the taps when people decide they want to do, whereupon they are suddenly too precious to be allowed to die.

    • infused 8.3

      I think you need to get over yourself tbh. This isn’t about you.

  9. RRM 9

    Seymour is spot on, this is a core personal freedom issue.

    Don’t want a gay marriage? Don’t get one.

    Don’t want a joint? Don’t smoke one.

    Don’t want a painless way of avoiding a few agonizing final months? Don’t take one.

    But please please PLEASE don’t use the power of the state to force me to choose the same as what you say you would choose.

    • simonm 9.1

      Got it one. Thank you for stating my own views so succinctly. I don’t agree with David Seymour on any economic issues, but in this instance he’s absolutely right.

    • David C 9.2

      RRM.

      Spot on.
      I just dont care if others want to linger on, good luck to them.
      I will happily take a pill (if I can) or have someone shoot me up if I cant swallow the pill.

      What I dont want is one of my brothers prosecuted for bringing me something to kill myself with.

  10. I had a son who had acute lymphoblastic leukemia. Had it for 8 years of his 11 years 11 months life. It went away then came back after a few years interval. I did a diploma in science and technology to gain insight, thus I spent massive hours on the internet researching pre drug therapy’s, ( particularly around the 1930’s/Royal Rife etc ) .

    I finally found constant patterns of successful maintenance . It largely consisted of the chemical compounds found in common supermarket food products. It was simply adjusted to the volume of intake. And others to avoid. It worked. We had the doctors scratching their heads wondering what was going on.

    He was labelled the pin up boy for successful cancer treatment by them.

    Then he contracted a lung disease called pneumocystis carinii . A common bacteria/ fungi in the environment that was deadly to victims of Aids in the 1980s. And those with compromised immune systems such as with cancer. The drugs had been developed, and there should have been no excuse.

    However my ex had taken my children to a part of the country 100 miles away from Starship. There the hospital doctors had written off my child’s lung infection as ‘ asthma, pneumonia or some other more common ailment. They were out of their depths.

    They were not Pediatric Hematologist/Oncologists.

    They obviously did not do the required research into his unique needs ie: read his voluminous medical notes from Starship.

    They sent him home time after time after prescribing Ventolin and saying ” he wasn’t taking his Ventolin regularly enough”

    I, as the non primary caregiver was kept out of the loop of what was going on until late in the piece.

    Given the mushroom second hand account treatment.

    One night , – when my ex had gone to bed after calling me over to monitor my child throughout the night ( he had been making loud audible high pitched whooping noises when inhaling for weeks) after being sent home again by these same doctors and them implying my ex was becoming a nuisance , – I had had enough.

    I marched in and said I’m taking him to the hospital.

    I DEMANDED ACTION.

    In less than 2 hours we were both in an ambulance headed for Starship. However, that disease had been left to progress so far that it was described as like ‘ trying to breathe through concrete’ … the scarred lung tissue was so advance…

    My son Jack died in the Piku ward 6 weeks later at Starship hospital.

    6 weeks before he died he was helping me lift sheep over a farm fence I was house sitting at. He was a robust and tall for his age boy.

    They counselled him to ready him for death.

    They fed him on morphine and he had tubes sticking out all over him and had to breathe through an oxygen mask. He was totally mentally coherent but constantly breathless . And for most of it, we all hoped against hope. But it was inevitable as we came from a observing a see sawing medical progress that finally , his young body was no longer coping.

    The night that he was expected to die he woke up in the morning and exclaimed ” I’m alive !! – I’m still here !!!. And he was hungry. His last meal was a meat pie and chicken nuggets.

    As he was finally declining rapidily with all the family gathered around and me and his mother holding his hands… I was asked to consent to the staff administering a lethal amount of morphine.

    I was appalled,… with tears coursing down my cheeks… I said – ” I CANT DO THAT !!”

    They were asking me to give permission to put down my stricken child like some veterinarian would put down an injured , aged dog.

    Jack died , long after they said he would, not of cancer, – and had it been taken seriously – not of that commonly treated lung disease that used to be so deadly back in the 1980’s , but of the intentionally lethal dose of morphine that I , as a parent, was asked to administer to my own son.

    A year later, I took that case to the Health and Disability Commissioner. My sister was a nurse all her working life, and we have a large – several inches think report we submitted that highlighted incompetence and negligence .

    I still have that original report. And all the medical data and notes. All of it.

    One year later I received a series of letters from the H& D Commissioner. And finally the pre final verdict. It contained a weak apology from a small list of people with the fall person being a nurse. A nurse of all people.

    Nurses do not draw up procedures to treat chronic illness – doctors do. And it was the doctors I wanted. Not the nurses. I finally revived the final letter . I haven’t bothered to open it to this day. I knew what sort of whitewash it would contain.

    All that happened way back in 2005 , And its as clear and raw now as if it happened just 6 months ago . Not a day goes past I don’t think of Jack. And every day I have my Jack ‘ moments’. You never get over losing a child. Ever.

    Think about that before we go letting politicians push for something like euthanasia, – I have just provided a personal example of how even doctors and medical staff can be lazy , incompetent and negligent. Can you really trust politicians to not be the same ? – that may never have had to deal with such things on a personal level and up front?

    I speak from experience about what I think and feel about euthanasia… this is just my personal thoughts and recollecting that moment when I , as a father , was asked to administer a lethal dose of morphine to my own son. And these days I do not suffer fools lightly or any other bullshit artists who are pushing their own agendas. And its been that way since 2005. I have a great sense of humor, but the events in 2005 have changed things and left me feeling like this song towards the pretentious , so called ‘experts’ and those posing they ‘ know better’ such as many of our politicians and those in ‘ authority’ .

    Like fuck they do.

    Phil Collins – In The Air Tonight (Official Music Video) – YouTube

    • RRM 10.1

      I’m so sorry to hear that, that’s absolutely horrific. Fly free young Jack.

    • * Edit.

      I was not the one who gave consent. I refused. I cannot even remember who it was. And when people tell me, I seem to forget. Being in that situation is a surreal experience. Its like it is a dream state . Noises distort , events happen quickly etc…

      Ive always been pro life despite some people who disagree with that, however all I ask is to consider carefully that whole area. And I am well aware of the incredible pain and suffering people go through , myself having a heart attack 4 months back and still not feeling ‘ right’ .

      • Brigid 10.2.1

        I am so dreadfully sorry. I understand a smidgeon of what you, your son, and his mother endured having helped care for my sister through the last 4 months of her life.
        My sister, Helen, could have, at any time during this time taken a whole bottle of opioid that would have ended her life, as the doctor kept her well supplied. She didn’t. Even when she articulated that she ‘wished it was all over’, she didn’t.
        Thankfully we all had competent medical care and help, and her last few days were peaceful.
        However that was because we demanded it. We researched her condition and the drugs she was given and insisted on action when we knew her drugs needed changing.
        Just as you did. Your son for all his bad luck surely had a wonderful father.
        I am sorry that you suffered so.

    • gsays 10.3

      thank you wk, for sharing this.
      what courage and tenacity you have shown and bring integrity to this discussion.

      thanks again.

      • Whispering Kate 10.3.1

        Thank you Wild Katipo for your sharing of your loss of your son. I have had every family member of mine go before me, with medical advances in palliative care and good communication between hospice doctors and nurses, cancer society backup and district nurses – no death needs to be distressing for the dying person.

        This is just a cop out and a dark dark road we are going down – a thin edge of the wedge and then how many other excuses will there be for other vulnerable people in our society, mentally unwell, elderly frail supposedly becoming a burden on their families. The whole set up is disgusting. I wouldn’t trust our Governments with putting through this bill – Bomber on the Daily Blog tells us of Jenny Shipley’s ideas when she was slashing the health budget – for keeping the dialysis costs down – listing all the people who were in last stage kidney disease who would not be eligible for dialysis – it sounded like a final solution from the Third Reich. Anybody who had a history of mental illness, anyone over the age of 65, a history of unsocial behaviour – the list went on – a bloody disgrace it was. Keep euthanasia out of NZ.

        • WILD KATIPO 10.3.1.1

          Yes, I remember Bomber in one of his articles mentioning Shipley and that clandestine ‘keeping of the costs down’…. I just could not recall precisely all the details but wanted to mention that , but didnt have the time to dig it up…

          But now I have and here it is:

          ………………………………………

          Alpha personalities, humility of death & Jenny Shipley – 3 reasons I …
          thedailyblog.co.nz/…/alpha-personalities-humility-of-death-jenny-shipley-3-reasons-i-…

          ( you have to copy and paste this sorry )
          ………………………………………..

          Perhaps that was a Jenny Shipley thing, not necessarily a National party thing,… but I , like you , disagree with euthanasia. I also , like you , was aware of the NAZI program to euthanize anyone the state deemed unfit for life.

          And I first became aware of that back in the 1970’s when I was a pre teen and the ‘ World at War’ series was being screened , and my older sister ( who later went on to become a nurse) was thoroughly disgusted at it. Shes still pretty much pro life and so am I.

          After my sister left nursing because she had seen too much death – much of it tragically preventable ,- and because the death of my son was the final straw, she went on to be the administrator at the Salvation Army Bethany ( for young women who were pregnant and from high risk backgrounds and who were often poor and homeless , as an alternative to simply aborting those unborn baby’s ) – and she dealt with some pretty heavy duty individuals ( gang members etc – so I taught these docile S.A women Jujitsu restraining techniques L0L ! ) – the point of this being, that life is a gift , should not be encouraged to be deemed expendable , nor should we embrace what you term the ‘ thin end of the wedge’.

    • Foreign waka 10.4

      Wild Katipo, I sincerely feel for you, having lost almost every member of my family prematurely, I really know how you feel. I too would never ask anybody to hasten along to dead a life that is not ours to take.
      My condolences and I am sorry for your loss.

    • RedLogix 10.5

      @Wild Katipo

      Well that was a tough read. And even tougher to type up, reliving those events all these years later. Time might take the sting out of it, but never the pain. And oddly enough I was listening to that exact Phil Collins song just last night. He was a very talented man, few musicians are both great drummers and singers at the same time.

      I can add nothing to what you have said, except to let you know I admire your forthrightness and honesty. Thank you.

    • Ad 10.6

      Wild Katipo that is by a fair way the best and most heartfelt comment I’ve seen on this site in a long time. Thankyou for that.

  11. Tanz 11

    This is not going to be a vote winner, dangerous, dangerous, dangerous.

    • David C 11.1

      I think it will be a vote winner for ACT. From people that usually wouldnt touch ACT with a bargepole will go there in appreciation of Seymor’s bravery.
      Wont be a game changer but half a percent will get ACT a second MP.

    • Nick K 11.2

      So?

      It’s the right thing to do. It’s easy to have “vote-winner” policies. But that’s nothing but populist garbage.

  12. Tanz 12

    Bravery or stupidity, two sides of the same coin.

    • David C 12.1

      Tanz.
      But small party politics is about a point of difference.
      Look at the way the Greens are wailing about Morgan at the mo’, worried (rightly) that he will steal their lunch come election time.

      • Muttonbird 12.1.1

        Emphasis on small. ACT is a sub 1% party on life support by cynical National Party doctors.

        I’d vote euthanasia if it applied to then ACT Party first which needs to be put out of its misery.

  13. Muttonbird 13

    Further to this bill, according to Wayne, being ‘consistent with ACT’s libertarian values’, is it not just a publicity stunt for Seymour and ACT to try to get their name in the headlines before the election? A sub 1% party putting some edgy topic out there like TOP has with weed legislation?

    If he was truely serious about this issue he wouldn’t bring it up three months before polling.

  14. Glenn 14

    It should be put to a binding referendum this coming election then we can do what the majority want. Called democracy and works most places in the world.

    • Muttonbird 14.1

      Not sure if the public are the best people to be deciding this, specially if a referendum is introduced at this late stage. What proper debate could be had in that time?

      • KJT 14.1.1

        Why shouldn’t the public decide?

        I am rather sick of the breathtaking arrogance of the political class, on both right and left, who think they should have the say over our lives, in so many things.

        It is not as though the quality of the decision making of a small minority, in Parliament, is that good.

        BCIR, Swiss style, is long overdue.

        If you don’t like euthanasia, you have every right to opt out. But you have no right to dictate to me that I should die in a prolonged agony, to satisfy your religious objections.

        • Draco T Bastard 14.1.1.1

          I am rather sick of the breathtaking arrogance of the political class, on both right and left, who think they should have the say over our lives, in so many things.

          QFT

          It is not as though the quality of the decision making of a small minority, in Parliament, is that good.

          Actually, it’s almost always sub-par.

  15. Glenn 15

    So you think that in this case democracy won’t work?
    That voters aren’t the best people to be deciding the laws they must live under?
    Wow I never realized how stupid and inept we voters are.

    May had a snap election in a relatively short time and yet we NZers are unable to debate 1 single bill in a longer time frame?

    Put it to the voter!

    • KJT 15.1

      Don’t you realise the public are too thick to make decisions about our own lives.

      Decisions that important should be left to 60 politicians to dictate. 120 if a conscience vote.

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