Aussie Aussie Aussie, Oi Oi Oi …
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7:30 am, February 17th, 2021 - 144 comments
Categories: Andrew Little, australian politics, jacinda ardern, scoundrels -
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Some international news yesterday as Jacinda Ardern chose to use decidedly undiplomatic speech to address Australia’s removal of its citizenship from a Jihadi bride leaving her as New Zealand’s problem, even though her link to New Zealand was tenuous and she was for all intents and purposes Australia’s problem. And even though Ardern had previously asked Scomo to be careful with the issue.
From Radio New Zealand:
Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has lashed out at Australia for dumping responsibility for a woman and two young children detained at the Turkish border on New Zealand.
The 26-year-old detainee – described by the Turkish government as an Islamic State terrorist – was caught trying to enter Turkey illegally from Syria.
Ardern said the woman, who had dual citizenship, left for Australia when she was six and travelled to Syria from Australia on an Australian passport.
Ardern said she directly raised the matter with the Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison and asked that they work together to resolve the issue.
“I was then informed in the following year that Australia had unilaterally revoked the citizenship of the individual involved. You can imagine my response.
“Since then we have continually raised with Australia our view that their decision was wrong, we continue to raise that view.
“My concern however, now, is that we have a situation where someone is now detained with two small children,” she said.
Legally the woman’s citizenship now only lies with New Zealand.
“I never believed that the right response was to simply have a race to revoke people’s citizenship, that is just not the right thing to do.”
We will put our hands up when we need to own the situation. We expected the same of Australia, they did not act in good faith.”
“If the shoe was on the other foot we would take responsibility, that would be the right thing to do, and I ask of Australia that they do the same,” she said.
She said New Zealand officials would be working to do welfare checks of those involved, and would be engaging with Turkish authorities.
“Regardless of their circumstances, regardless of whether have committed offences and particularly we have obligations when they have children involved.
“I would argue Australia holds those obligations too.”
There are some pretty fundamental human rights at stake. Just check the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights if you need proof. Protected rights include this one:
Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.”
And these two:
Everyone has the right to a nationality …
No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
Of course Australia has not been the best at recognizing international human rights and respecting the rights of an individual. Just read any of the Standard posts about Peter Dutton to realize this is another example of weaponised brutality for political advantage.
And Australia’s immigration policies and practiced cruelty has caused problems for the relationship with New Zealand in the past. It was just 12 months ago when Ardern told Morrison that Australia should not deport to New Zealand its people and its problems.
A couple of years ago Andrew Little also stood up to them. This is what I wrote at the time:
The Australians are upset with Andrew Little and are throwing Donald Trump type tantrums to show their displeasure.
What has he done to attract their displeasure? He accused the Australian Government of having a deportation policy with what appears to have a venal, political strain.
The policy relates to a 2014 law change which increased the Minister of Immigration’s powers to cancel the visas of Kiwis, including those who have lived in Australia for extended periods of time who are deemed to be not of “good character”.
The change of policy has meant that many kiwis have been thrown into custody, separated from family and removed to a country they may not have any links with.
The cases are numerous but include a 17 year old held in an adult detention centre for non violent offending in breach of International Treaties protecting young people, as well as the case of Ko Hapua and Lee Tepuia, both who were deported because they belonged to motorcycle gangs that were not actually illegal.
Tepuia’s case in particular is jaw dropping. He had lived in Australia since 2005 and his youngest daughter was an Australian. His forcible removal from his wife and four children has had a devastating effect on him.
And he kept winning in Court yet despite this Dutton kept cancelling his visa and not telling him why.
When you also consider the appalling treatment that refugees have been subject to in Nauru you get an overwhelming feeling that people are being harassed and humiliated by Dutton and Co for political gain.
And there was this earlier attempt to implement the power to remove an Australian’s citizenship even if it was the only citizenship that they had. I wrote this in 2016:
In Tony Abbott’s Australia there was a recent attempt to attack a fundamental human right, that of citizenship by granting the Minister of Immigration the right to withdraw an individual’s Australian citizenship, even if it was the only citizenship the individual had.
It was a covert attempt from within Abbott’s cabinet and was quickly shut down by others with a proper comprehension of the importance of citizenship and human rights.
It was not a general power, it was to be applied only against those suspected of terrorism related offences. But the fact that it was even considered, and the leaking of transcripts of what was said in Cabinet, suggests that Abbott’s tenure as Prime Minister may again be on the ropes.
The proposal was raised by Immigration Minister, Peter Dutton. Remarkably there was no policy paper to present and senior members of Cabinet including the Deputy Prime Minister were not aware that the idea was being proposed before it occurred. It was brought up at the end of a cabinet meeting with no paperwork.
The Sydney Morning Herald ran this story which included these remarkable quotes from within the cabinet meeting in question:
Malcolm Turnbull attacked the measure:
This is an extraordinary proposition … [a] person’s citizenship is of enormous importance, intrinsic to themselves. Take me. The only people who’ve lived in Australia longer than my family are Aboriginal. I have no other identity. Are we seriously saying some minister could take my citizenship?
Only if you’re a terrorist, was the rejoinder. “Only if you are someone the minister thinks is a terrorist,” Turnbull corrected.
You know that things are particularly freaking weird when Barnaby Joyce opposes something ultra conservative. But that is what happened in this case.
It is not only the screaming egregious breach of human rights that is what is wrong here. It is also the trashing of New Zealand Australian diplomatic relations while engaging in egregious breaches of human rights that is the kicker.
National is backing Australia’s view. I am pretty sure that if Judith Collins was in control the Jihadi’s bride’s kiwi citizenship would be taken off her. The consequences to her two young children are irrelevant.
We should not be surprised. Australia’s handling of the rights of kiwis who have spent the vast majority of their lives in Australia and who have been treated with contempt has caused significant damage to the Aotearoa Australia relationship. This particular incident is the cherry on the top.
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- Pasifika justice as Member’s Bill passes final reading
Teanau Tuiono’s Member’s Bill, the Citizenship (Western Samoa Restoration) Amendment Bill, has passed its third reading and will become law. ...1 day ago
- Release: Minister of Education thinks New Zealand ends at the Bombay Hills
The Minister of Education has shown complete disregard for rural communities and their school bus routes in Question Time today. ...1 day ago
- Economists sound alarm on Government’s slash-and-burn approach
A group of prominent economists has released an open letter to the Government, raising grave concerns about the far-reaching consequences of its fiscal policy. ...1 day ago
- Release: Smoking numbers up under Costello’s watch
National’s repeal of Labour’s smokefree legislation has taken New Zealand further away from achieving a Smokefree 2025 and a smokefree generation. ...2 days ago
- Release: Call for Palestine recognition by NZ, Australian and Canadian MPs
Parliamentarians from Australia, Canada and New Zealand have written an open letter to their respective Prime Ministers calling on them to recognise Palestine. ...2 days ago
- Justice Select Committee opens floor for Treaty Principles submissions
Today, the Justice Select Committee has decided to officially open submissions for the controversial Treaty Principles Bill. ...3 days ago
- Power of the people on full display as hīkoi approaches Parliament
Today, Hīkoi mō te Tiriti arrived in Wellington, with thousands gathering to march in unity against the divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...3 days ago
- Hypocrisy as Te Whatu Ora contractor bill balloons
Te Whatu Ora’s bill for contracting and consulting staff has ballooned by nearly 20 percent under the National Government, breaking a promise they made during the election campaign to cut contractors. ...4 days ago
- Release: Growing pressure to scrap Section 7AA Repeal Bill
The newly released Section 7AA Repeal Bill's select committee report is further evidence that the Government should scrap it. ...4 days ago
- Government’s move to monetise access to nature a slippery slope
The Green Party is voicing serious concerns over the Government’s proposal to charge for access to public conservation land, released today. ...7 days ago
- Green Party condemns the passage of Treaty Principles Bill
The Green Party condemns the passing of the Treaty Principles Bill at first reading, and is clear that the fight is not over. ...1 week ago
- Stand Up for Te Tiriti
Te Tiriti o Waitangi is our country’s founding document. It forms the basis of the relationship between Māori and the Crown – and the Aotearoa New Zealand we live in today. ...1 week ago
- Release: Over 15,000 sign Labour’s open letter to Luxon
As the hīkoi to Parliament continues, Labour has sent an open letter to Prime Minister Christopher Luxon in a last-ditch attempt to get him to kill the Treaty Principles Bill. ...1 week ago
- Fast Track Bill threatens environment, climate and reputation
The fast-track legislation passing its second reading in Parliament is another step towards environmental ruin. ...1 week ago
- Greens join King’s Counsel in calling for Treaty Principles Bill to be abandoned
The Prime Minister must answer the call from a group of senior lawyers of the King’s Counsel to abandon the divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...1 week ago
- Chris Hipkins’ apology statement to state and faith-based care survivors
...1 week ago
- Release: Labour formally apologises to state and faith-based care survivors
Labour joins with the Government in unreservedly apologising for the abuse, neglect and trauma including torture in state and faith-based care and for ignoring the voices of survivors for too long. ...1 week ago
- Green Party stands in support of survivors of abuse in care
Today, the Green Party stands alongside the survivors of abuse in state care and faith-based care as the Government issues an historic apology. ...1 week ago
- Green Party calls for conscience vote on Treaty Principles Bill
The Green Party has written to the Speaker of the House requesting he enable a personal vote on the Treaty Principles Bill. ...1 week ago
- Govt move to exclude journalist risks chilling effect
The Green Party is alarmed by the Government’s move to exclude a journalist from covering this week’s apology for the survivors of abuse in state and faith-based care. ...1 week ago
- Without action, an apology will be empty air
For tomorrow’s apology to survivors of abuse in state and faith-based care to hold any water, the Government must not pursue the same policies that drove the abuse in the first place. ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Concerns remain over tobacco interference
Concerns about the tobacco industry’s ability to interfere in government policy making remain, despite the inability of the Office of the Auditor-General to investigate the Government’s decision to halve the excise tax on heated tobacco products. ...2 weeks ago
- Urgent wake-up call on climate
The Climate Change Commission’s latest advice indicates Aotearoa needs to be stepping up on climate action. ...2 weeks ago
- Green MP’s Meme-ber’s Bill set to save the world
Break out the punchlines and dust off your meme folder: Green Party MP Kahurangi Carter’s Copyright (Parody and Satire) Amendment Bill was pulled from the Ballot yesterday. ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Poroporoaki: Ta Robert (Bom) Gillies
Kua hinga te manawa kairākau o Te Rua Tekau Ma Waru Tiwhatiwha te po! Kakarauru i te po! Ka rapuhia kei hea koe kua riro! Haere e te Ika a Whiro ki o tini hoa kua ngaro atu ki te Pō ...2 weeks ago
- Labour, Greens and Te Pāti Māori call on the Prime Minister to block the Treaty Principles Bill
The opposition parties stand united for an Aotearoa that honours Te Tiriti, rather than seeking to rewrite it. Labour, the Greens and Te Pāti Māori are working together against the Government’s divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Labour, Greens and Te Pāti Māori call on the Prime Minister to block the Treaty Principle...
The opposition parties stand united for an Aotearoa that honours Te Tiriti, rather than seeking to rewrite it. Labour, the Greens and Te Pāti Māori are working together against the Government’s divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...2 weeks ago
- NZ must pursue independent foreign policy
The Green Party says the need is greater than ever for Aotearoa New Zealand to pursue an independent foreign policy. ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Winston Peters must apologise
The Deputy Prime Minister should apologise to the public servant he named and blamed for something they did not do, and for misusing the rules of Parliament. ...2 weeks ago
- Government action provides Southland farmers more time to meet plan requirements
The Government is taking action to ensure Southland farmers and growers are not affected by unreasonable regional farm plan deadlines, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay, Environment Minister Penny Simmonds and Associate Environment Minister Andrew Hoggard say.“Cabinet has agreed to provide more time for farmers and growers to comply with regional rules ...8 hours ago - Bill reaffirms Government’s commitment to crack down on serious youth offending
The Oranga Tamariki (Responding to Serious Youth Offending) Bill had its first reading at Parliament today. The Bill reaffirms the Government’s commitment to crack down on serious youth offending, Minister for Children Karen Chhour says. “In recent years we have seen an unacceptable spike in youth offending. “This Bill makes ...9 hours ago
- Critical milestones for earthquake buildings review
Fairer, more sensible rules about managing earthquake risks are a step closer with the passing of legislation and the appointment of an independent chair to provide expert advice, Minister for Building and Construction Chris Penk says. “The Government is committed to reinvigorating our cities and regions to support economic growth, ...9 hours ago
- State of the art radiology machine for Auckland
People in Northland and Auckland will benefit from a new machine for cancer treatment installed at the Regional Cancer and Blood Service at Auckland City Hospital. The MV5 linear accelerator, or LINAC machine, officially opened today targets cancer tumours with pinpoint accuracy. Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says this new, ...10 hours ago
- Foreign Minister to visit Europe
Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Winston Peters will travel to Europe for high-level talks with France, Germany and the United Kingdom next week. "Since taking office almost a year ago, the Coalition Government has emphasised the importance we place on New Zealand's traditional and likeminded diplomatic and ...10 hours ago
- First arrests made under gang patch ban
Police have made their first arrests under the new gang patch legislation, with two gang members arrested, says Police Minister Mark Mitchell. “Just before 11 this morning, Police in Wairoa apprehended a gang member for wearing a patch to the supermarket. He has been arrested and will now face enforcement ...12 hours ago
- Better support for victims of sexual violence
The Government is proposing two major changes to name suppression laws that will put the views of victims of sexual violence first, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “We are committed to restoring law and order and these two proposed changes will help ensure the victims of crime are put at ...12 hours ago
- Government moving forward with Regional Deals
Cabinet has agreed to invite all regions to submit proposals for Regional Deals between central and local government that drive economic growth and deliver the infrastructure our country needs, Local Government Minister Simeon Brown and Infrastructure Minister Chris Bishop say. Inviting all regions to propose a Regional Deal that boosts ...13 hours ago
- MSA pilot participant update
One of the ten young men selected to participate in the Military-Style Academy Pilot has allegedly reoffended. Children’s Minister Karen Chhour is disappointed but says it would be naïve to think that none of these young men would reoffend. “I’m saddened that this young person has not taken this opportunity ...13 hours ago
- Attendance rates increase, again
Associate Education Minister David Seymour says that school attendance is continuing to rise. In Term 3 of 2024 51.3 per cent of students attended school regularly, an increase of 5.3 percentage points from 46 per cent in Term 3 of 2023. “This Government has prioritised student attendance and it is ...15 hours ago
- Improving the lives of young New Zealanders
Ensuring New Zealand is the best place in the world for children and young people is the vision at the heart of the Government’s new Child and Youth Strategy, Child Poverty Reduction Minister Louise Upston says. “Childhood represents a huge opportunity to set people on a positive path towards living ...18 hours ago
- Government continues work to reinstate livestock exports by sea
The Government is reinstating the trade of livestock exports by sea while ensuring the highest standards of animal welfare, says Associate Minister of Agriculture Andrew Hoggard.“The Government will introduce legislation changes to reinstate the trade, enhance oversight, and strengthen requirements for exporters to identify risks and manage the welfare of ...1 day ago
- Speech to the National Quality Forum 2024
Tēnā koutou katoa – it is a pleasure to be here today. I would like to begin by acknowledging the important leadership role you all play in ensuring a quality health system New Zealanders can trust. There is enormous clinical expertise in this room covering a wide range of disciplines. ...2 days ago
- New Zealand’s COP29 National Statement
Tēnā koutou katoa. Mr President, Excellencies, Delegates. New Zealand, and all nations represented here today, are already dealing with the impacts of climate change. Our households, businesses, and economies are bearing the costs of its effects. The choices we make now will shape the severity of these impacts for generations ...2 days ago
- Latest Quarterly Investment Report released
The Government has released its second Quarterly Investment Report (QIR) which shows substantial work still to be done by agencies to improve investment reporting and meet the Government’s expectations, Infrastructure and Acting Finance Minister Chris Bishop says. “New Zealand has significant infrastructure and investment needs. The Government is determined to get ...2 days ago
- New Zealand supporting loss and damage fund
Climate Change Minister Simon Watts announced New Zealand will contribute NZ$10 million to the new Fund for Responding to Loss and Damage while at the annual United Nations Climate Change Conference (COP29) in Baku, Azerbaijan. “New Zealand is joining the global effort to address the significant challenge of responding to ...2 days ago
- Gang crackdown begins at stroke of midnight
The free ride for gangs is over when the clock strikes midnight tonight, with tough new laws officially coming into effect, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith and Police Minister Mark Mitchell say. “Gang patches will no longer be able to be worn in public. To earn the right to wear a ...2 days ago
- LGFA increases borrowing capacity to support high growth councils
The Government is welcoming the decision by the Local Government Funding Agency to increase access to financing tools for fast growing councils to support greater investment in critical infrastructure, Local Government Minister Simeon Brown says.“Communities across the country are facing an infrastructure deficit and significant population growth is projected in ...2 days ago
- Temporary Traffic Management costs revealed
The Government has revealed that over the past three years, the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) has spent an eyewatering $786 million of taxpayers’ money on road cones and temporary traffic management (TTM), Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.“When I became Minister, I was surprised to learn that that NZTA did ...2 days ago
- Jurisdiction of Disputes Tribunal to double
Legislation that will double the financial jurisdiction of the Disputes Tribunal from $30,000 to $60,000 has passed first reading in Parliament today, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith. “We need to improve court timeliness and access to justice so that Kiwis and get on with their lives. Court delays affect everyone, the ...2 days ago
- Protecting New Zealand from foreign interference
Legislation that will specifically criminalise foreign interference and strengthen espionage offences has passed first reading in Parliament today, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “It is normal and appropriate for states to interact and work to influence one another. This encourages cooperation and can have mutually beneficial outcomes. “However, the reality ...2 days ago
- Significant milestone for Canterbury Road of National Significance
Transport Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed news that the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) Board has approved funding towards pre-implementation and early works on the State Highway 1 (SH1) Belfast to Pegasus Motorway and Woodend Bypass Road of National Significance (RoNS). “Reaching this significant milestone is a reflection of our Government’s ...2 days ago
- Health survey results to help drive change
Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says findings from the annual Health Survey highlight the need to continue driving better health outcomes for New Zealanders. The New Zealand Health Survey is an annual snapshot of key metrics measured from July 2023 – July 2024. Findings released this morning include: In 2023/24, ...2 days ago
- Final push needed to get to Smokefree 2025
A renewed effort to get people to quit smoking will build on what has worked to date and target the groups who most need support, Associate Health Minister Casey Costello said today. “The latest New Zealand Health Survey results show the daily smoking rate at 6.9 per cent and we ...2 days ago
- New diplomatic appointments
Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters has announced four new diplomatic appointments. “Our diplomats play an important role in ensuring New Zealand’s interests are maintained and enhanced across the world,” Mr Peters says. “It is a pleasure to announce the appointment of these senior diplomats from the Ministry of Foreign ...3 days ago
- Next steps for Regulatory Standards Bill
Regulation Minister David Seymour has today announced the next steps in the Government’s plan improve the quality of regulation by opening consultation on a proposed Regulatory Standards Bill. “New Zealand's low wages can be blamed on low productivity, and low productivity can be blamed on poor regulation,” says Mr Seymour. ...3 days ago
- Red Tape Tipline goes live
Minister for Regulation David Seymour has today announced that the Ministry for Regulation’s Red Tape Tipline is now live. “We want to hear about your red tape horror stories. From today, New Zealanders will have a say on how they are regulated through an online portal,” says Mr Seymour. The ...3 days ago
- Youth Parliament 2025 announced
The Minister for Youth Matt Doocey has today announced the eleventh Youth Parliament will be taking place in 2025. “Youth Parliament offers a unique youth development opportunity to young people from across New Zealand to experience the political process and learn about how government works,” says Mr Doocey. “The two-day ...3 days ago
- Police stats show promising change
After nearly a year in Government, Kiwis have seen significant change across law and order with promising early results shown across some Police statistics, says Police Minister Mark Mitchell. “In August 2023, I told New Zealanders that if they had not started to see a change in public safety within ...3 days ago
- Better coordination of anti-scam efforts
With the launch of Fraud Awareness Week, the Government is committing to new coordination efforts across industry and government to combat online scams, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly says. “Online financial scams are a growing problem for New Zealand. New data released today shows that Kiwis lost nearly ...4 days ago
- Minister to consider 7AA select committee report
Minister for Children Karen Chhour will consider the recommendations made by the Social Services and Community Committee in its report back to Parliament on the Oranga Tamariki (Repeal of Section 7AA) Amendment Bill. “I want to thank the people who made submissions and those who appeared before the committee in ...4 days ago
- Defence Minister to attend ASEAN meeting
Defence Minister Judith Collins will this week attend the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) Defence Ministers’ Meeting-Plus in Vientiane, Laos. “We need to take every opportunity to engage with our international partners, given the increasingly unstable geo-political situation,” Ms Collins says. “New Zealand has a long-standing commitment to this ...4 days ago
- Launching the White Ribbon Ride
The Minister for the Prevention of Family and Sexual Violence, Karen Chhour, was on hand to wish riders well at the start of the North Island leg of the White Ribbon Ride in Whakatāne this morning. The ride helps mark the International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women, ...4 days ago
- Construction to begin on next stage of Papakura to Drury
Construction on the next stage of the SH1 Papakura to Drury project will begin early next month, with the contract for works awarded to Fulton Hogan, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. "SH1 Papakura to Drury is a key project that will drive economic growth and productivity, reduce congestion, and enable people ...6 days ago
- NZ signs trade deal with Costa Rica, Iceland and Switzerland
Trade and Agriculture Minister Todd McClay has signed a pioneering trade agreement that prioritises New Zealand’s sustainable exports at a ceremony during APEC in Peru today. “The Agreement on Trade and Sustainability (ACCTS), between Costa Rica, Iceland, and Switzerland was concluded in July of this year and opens up significant ...6 days ago
- Government and iwi work together on aquaculture
Five new Aquaculture Settlement Areas will help ensure Ngāi Tahu shares in the opportunities aquaculture offers for Southland’s economy, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. “The Aquaculture Settlement Areas (ASAs) I’m announcing today set aside space so the Crown and Ngāi Tahu can assess their potential for aquaculture development. ...6 days ago
- Government launches review to ensure electricity market is fit-for-purpose
The terms of reference for a review of the performance of the electricity market have been released. The review, initiated by the Coalition Government during the power crisis in winter will look at whether current regulations and market design support economic growth and access to reliable and affordable electricity, Energy Minister ...7 days ago
- Speech to Social Investment Hui: Jack and his whānau need our help
Kia ora koutou katoa. Nau mai, haere mai, piki mai. Ki te mihi atu ahau, ki te manwhenua nei, Te Atiawa, Ngāti toa rangatira, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa. Thank you, Andy, for your introduction. Let me acknowledge you as the new Chief Executive of the Social Investment ...7 days ago
- Minister of State for Trade heads to Brisbane for PACER Plus meeting
Minister of State for Trade Nicola Grigg has travelled to Australia to attend the PACER Plus Ministers Meeting in Brisbane. “Trade plays a critical role in driving employment, economic growth, and improving the standards of living in the Pacific Region. The Government is strongly committed to supporting Pacific Island countries ...7 days ago
- Proposals to modernise conservation released
Toitū te taiao – Our environment endures The Government is consulting on proposals to modernise New Zealand’s conservation management system, aiming to protect relevant natural areas while supporting sustainable growth in tourism and regional economies, Conservation Minister Tama Potaka says. “Today, the Department of Conservation – Te Papa Atawhai is ...7 days ago
- Grattan on Friday: Marles plays a defensive bat on nuclear as the government rushes to get though la...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra Richard Marles is an ambitious man who hasn’t given up the dream of one day reaching the top job. But, despite being deputy prime minister, his profile is much lower than that of Treasurer Jim ...2 hours ago - NEW POLL: Kiwis Overwhelmingly Support MPs’ Expenses Transparency Law Change
62% of respondents support the extension of the OIA to cover MPs’ spending, compared to just 13% opposed and 24% were unsure. ...4 hours ago - The House: Meanwhile, a week of passing law
The political week has been packed with worthy distractions, but all week Parliament has focused on passing new laws. Here are the highlights. ...4 hours ago - The biggest difference between Hīkoi mō te Tiriti and past hīkoi: More support from non-Māori
Analysis - The diversity of voices during the hīkoi was noticeable - from tangata moana to young immigrants to elderly Pākehā from the South Island. ...5 hours ago
- The House: Samoan citizenship restoration – ‘It means we belong to this land’
When the bill to restore NZ citizenship to some Samoans passed this week, Parliament's galleries were full to the brim with members of the community. ...6 hours ago
- More Delays In Action On Use Of Puberty Blockers With Children
Women’s Rights Party Co-leader Jill Ovens says the Ministry has put New Zealand children at risk by continuing to allow “off-label” prescribing of puberty blockers at far higher rates than other similar countries. ...6 hours ago
- Police Minister adamant he wasn’t aware of gang members training at gun clubs
That is despite two papers from police that raised the matter with him. ...7 hours ago
- Shorten declares himself ‘a proud moderate’, saying Australians ‘in the middle’ shouldn’t ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra Bill Shorten has declared himself “a proud moderate” in a valedictory speech declaring parliament has the responsibility to ensure the extremes of left and right do not set the terms of political debate. Shorten, ...7 hours ago
- New ‘best practice’ principles for superannuation products are coming. We asked a panel of exper...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Matt Garrow, Editorial Web Developer Studio Romantic/Shutterstock We all know how important it is to save enough money for retirement – but what about spending it wisely when we get there? Even for those who have built up a suitable ...7 hours ago
- Government accused of betraying Kiwis’ trust over lack of consultation on live exports
The government has always vowed to reinstate live exports by sea, which was banned by the previous Labour government. ...8 hours ago
- 7 things you can do if you think you sweat too much
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michael Freeman, Associate Professor of Dermatology, Bond University ERIK Miheyeu/Shutterstock Sweating is our body’s way of cooling down, a bit like an internal air conditioner. When our core temperature rises (because it’s hot outside, or you’re exercising), sweat glands all ...8 hours ago
- Phenergan for under 6s is now banned due to hallucination fears. Here’s what to use instead
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Nial Wheate, Professor of Pharmaceutical Chemistry, Macquarie University Australia’s drug regulator has issued a safety warning over the medicine Phenergan and related products containing the antihistamine drug promethazine. The Therapeutic Goods Administration said the over-the-counter products should not be given to children ...8 hours ago
- A new stage adaptation of Peter Carey’s Jack Maggs is a delightful homage to theatrical storytelli...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Catherine Campbell, Lecturer, Performing Arts, UniSA Creative, University of South Australia Matt Byrne/STCSA Jack Maggs is a delight and a homage to theatrical storytelling in Australia. Based on Peter Carey’s bestselling novel, Jack Maggs follows the ex-convict as he lands ...8 hours ago
- The government has introduced laws for its social media ban. But key details are still missing
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Daniel Angus, Professor of Digital Communication, Director of QUT Digital Media Research Centre, Queensland University of Technology Ron Lach/Pexels The federal government today introduced into parliament legislation for its social media ban for people under 16 years. Communications Minister Michelle ...8 hours ago
- Archives NZ, National Library to cut 27 roles
The Department of Internal Affairs wants to bring the two organisations under the joint leadership of the Chief Archivist and National Librarian. ...8 hours ago
- Gang patch ban: Members warn of potential for violence to ‘erupt’ as new laws enforced
"I can't see this lasting unless they have a budget to lock fullas up in jail which I think is absolutely stupid, really it's ludicrous," Ngavii Pekapo, who set up a Mongrel Mob chapter 54 years ago, says. ...9 hours ago
- ACT leader David Seymour raises doubts about Waikato medical school
Government documents show ACT leader David Seymour told the government he was "dissatisfied" with a cost-benefit analysis. ...9 hours ago
- National’s Erica Stanford allegedly calls Labour’s Jan Tinetti a ‘stupid bitchR...
The Education Minister has apologised in Parliament for her remark. ...9 hours ago
- Labour backs new Police Commissioner – but warns against routine arming
The alternative to policing by consent would be a police state, which New Zealanders don't want, the party says. ...10 hours ago
- Youth on boot camp pilot re-offended five weeks after release
Children's Minister Karen Chhour said while it was disappointing, it would naïve to think none of the participants would lapse. ...11 hours ago
- In photos: People of the hīkoi, and why they marched
Hikoi mō Te Tiriti has come to an end, going down in history as the largest march to Parliament in Aotearoa. ...11 hours ago
- ‘Everything is becoming a culture war’: Jon Ronson on conspiracies and cycleways
Ahead of his appearance in Aotearoa, the acclaimed British journalist, podcaster and documentarian talks to Stewart Sowman-Lund about why people are still fascinated by the fringes. The last place I would expect to find Jon Ronson is relaxing in the countryside. The iconic British journalist and writer is best known ...11 hours ago - Kia kaha Lebanon: NZ media only tell half your story of struggle
The United States has vetoed a UN Security Council ceasefire resolution — for the fourth time — in Israel’s war on Gaza, while Hezbollah demands a complete ceasefire and “protection of Lebanon’s sovereignty” in any deal with Israel. Amid the death and devastation, Joe Hendren reflects on his time in ...12 hours ago
- ‘Deserves a Bafta’: After the Party premieres in the UK to five-star reviews
The acclaimed New Zealand drama has just premiered on TV in the United Kingdom, and the five-star reviews are already flowing in. Six months after it was called a “blistering” “tour de force” by Australian critics, and nearly a year since The Spinoff declared it the best drama New Zealand ...12 hours ago
- Drugs are getting cheaper and easier to find in Aotearoa
New Zealanders are drinking and smoking less, but most other recreational drugs are becoming cheaper, more popular and more available, two new reports show. Two significant new surveys about drugs in Aotearoa were released this week, offering a rare insight into New Zealanders’ choice of substances, which ones are becoming ...12 hours ago
- COP29: ‘climate finance’ for the Pacific is mostly loans, saddling small island nations with mor...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Steven Ratuva, Director, Macmillan Brown Centre for Pacific Studies, University of Canterbury Lenora Qereqeretabua, the deputy speaker of Fiji’s Parliament, at the COP29 climate summit. IISD/ENB/Mike Muzurakis, CC BY-SA As this year’s UN climate summit reaches its final stage of negotiations, Pacific ...13 hours ago
- Review: The magic of Wicked and the curse of corporate greed
The new movie musical is undoubtedly a fun watch, but it’s also proof that bigger isn’t always better, writes Stewart Sowman-Lund. Contains minor spoilers for Wicked. There’s no doubt that Wicked is going to be huge. No other pop culture event this year, save from maybe Charli XCX’s Brat, has ...13 hours ago
- Dame Jacinda Ardern to be given United Nations leadership award
She will get the champion for global change award from the United Nations Foundation at a ceremony in New York tomorrow. ...15 hours ago
- NZ will resume live animal exports – to low demand
Analysis: NZ is lifting what was supposed to be a permanent ban on live animal exports. But it’s not the lucrative industry it once was. The post NZ will resume live animal exports – to low demand appeared first on Newsroom. ...15 hours ago - Financial forms of family violence affect one in seven of us – but the law is lagging
There are calls for New Zealand’s Family Violence Act to name economic harm as a standalone type of violence, rather than a subcategory of psychological abuse, to bring it in line with the United Kingdom and Australia. Economic harm – restricting access to, sabotaging or exploiting another person’s financial resources, ...15 hours ago
- Downside Risks To Treasury’s Economic And Fiscal Forecasts
New Zealand is currently running a structural fiscal deficit, with expenditure exceeding revenue. Economic growth falling short of expectations has been making it harder for the Government to bring the books back into balance. ...15 hours ago
- Science continues to exclude Indigenous communities. Fixing this benefits everyone
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jordan Peter Anthony Pitt, Associate Dean of Indigenous Strategy and Services (Faculty of Science), University of Sydney An enduring challenge facing science around the world is how to best include and engage Indigenous communities. In Australia, for example, 0.5% of Indigenous ...16 hours ago
- Why is cricket so popular on the Indian sub-continent?
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Vaughan Cruickshank, Senior Lecturer in Health and Physical Education, University of Tasmania Cricket originated in England, but has been spread worldwide by British soldiers and settlers in the past few hundred years. It is now the second most popular sport in ...16 hours ago
- Disinformation and deepfakes played a part in the US election. Australia should expect the same
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Renee Barnes, Associate professor of Journalism, University of the Sunshine Coast Mladen Zivkovic/Shutterstock As America takes stock after Donald Trump’s re-election to the presidency, it’s worth highlighting the AI-generated fake photos, videos and audio shared during the campaign. A slew ...16 hours ago
- Is thunderstorm asthma becoming more common?
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kira Morgan Hughes, PhD Candidate in Allergy and Asthma, School of Life and Environmental Sciences, Deakin University When spring arrives, so do warnings about thunderstorm asthma. But a decade ago, most of us hadn’t heard of it. So where did thunderstorm asthma ...16 hours ago
- Overwhelmed by ever more clothing donations, charities are exporting the problem. Local governments ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Yassie Samie, Postdoctoral Researcher in Fashion and Textiles, RMIT University anna.spoka/Shutterstock What happens to your clothes after you don’t want them any more? Chances are, you will donate them to op shops run by a charity organisation. There are more ...16 hours ago
- Friendly fire: a nuclear push by allies at COP29 poses a sticky problem for Albanese
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By John Quiggin, Professor, School of Economics, The University of Queensland IndustryAndTravel/Shutterstock Prime Minister Anthony Albanese didn’t see this coming. At the global COP29 climate talks in Baku, the Australian government was indirectly criticised by two allies, the United States and the ...16 hours ago
- Nugget Is Dead brings queer love, multiculturalism and Aussie flair to the Christmas movie formula
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Phoebe Hart, Associate Professor, Film Screen & Animation, Queensland University of Technology Julia Firak Stan’s new Christmas film Nugget is Dead is a colourful production that follows the rules of the seasonal genre film to a tee – with an Aussie ...16 hours ago
- Help Me Hera: Should I cut contact with my ex-stepdad?
My parents are finally getting divorced. So why do I feel like my stepdad’s feelings are still my problem? Want Hera’s help? Email your problem to helpme@thespinoff.co.nz Dear Hera My parents recently announced their separation. This in itself isn’t a problem. I’ve already gone through this once before in my early childhood, so ...16 hours ago
- New Zealand Drops In Global Ranking On Climate Action
If the government won’t hold polluters to account, then people will. People are increasingly taking to the streets and the courtrooms, putting their bodies on the line to shut down polluting industries. This will only escalate further unless New ...16 hours ago
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Oranga Tamariki, time to fly in cape and all …
Yip bring back the kids and leave the jihadi bride in Turkey, they'll be better off without her and it sends a message to any other thicko that thinks being a terrorist breeding unit is a good idea.
You approve of uplifting those children because they are at risk when cared for by their mother?
What sort of life will a kid raised by a terrorist get,? filled with hate is all they'll get . Plus it will send a message.
Fair enough. Now all New Zealand Government has to do is to find some loving foster parents and they’ll live long and happy ever after. How hard can it be?
I would like to know if the mother knew her Australian citizenship would be revoked before she left Australia?
It is not straight forward when it comes to the welfare of the children and which country has the say over the welfare of the children.
What is the status of the children when it comes to international law?
A person cannot be denied entry to their country of birth unless there is legislation for this.
Possibly not. I presume that the children are Syrian nationals but they would have a ery strong case to be given New Zealand residence given the circumstances.
The residence of the children needs to be determined.
The children appear to be Syrian, they are fatherless and their father's were from Switzerland. The mothers is widowed and has NZ citizenship.
1. Can the mother ask for entry into Switzerland?
2. Has the mother asked for entry to NZ for her children?
3. Can Australia revoke entry for her children?
Correction Sweden and not Switzerland.
If the mother has NZ citizenship by birth or grant (based on media coverage, she was born here so probably has citizenship by birth), the children are eligible for NZ citizenship by descent, so that's probably the practical answer.
Left in 2014. Law came in 2015. Amended in 2018. I think.
Thanks for that collation.
Further evidence of a detestable race of people
From all accounts the PMs displeasure with Australia dosnt even rate in Oz…a non event.
Nonsense. Jacinda Ardern is extremely popular in Australia, and her mauling of the unlikeable Morrison will play very well indeed.
We'll see
It was the 27th item when I scrolled down the Sydney Morning Herald website yesterday evening so yep, guess it’s largely gone unnoticed in Australia. The law allowing her dual citizenship to be revoked was passed in 2015. Depending on which media you listen to her citizenship was revoked in 2019 or 2020. Old news over there.
Yep , couple family members in two states hadnt heard a thing about it and shrugged ….NZ barely gets a mention in OZ media and nobody cares
Well it wouldn't would it. Anyway her displeasure seems more at ScoMoFo and his Ilk.
No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
So it would be very hard to say that the Australian government's move to deprive this person of their citizenship was arbitrary. They did it with specific legislation which sets out those extreme conditions and the evidence required for that deprivation of citizenship.
And by electing to have dual citizenship the person certainly ensured they had options to change nationality.
I would feel a whole lot more comfortable if our Prime Minister said that before the person steps foot inside this country, they will have an SIS file a foot thick and that the system will follow her penumbra-like.
In this century, no other country in the southern hemisphere has had to deal with terror threats like we have, and no other intelligence community has failed to deal with it. And yes, they have to look in multiple directions at once. No, they don't have to disclose all that evidence. The PM has had a full legislative rehearsal to be able to anticipate this current situation and passed on it.
This has all the hallmarks of building to be an Ahmed Zaoui. The applicant will generate local advocates who will play the our emotive media like a black grand piano. Our state should test this person as long as it needs to.
Um, Australia would strongly disagree with you. Combined with their widespread hatred of illegal migrants/refugees, this is not a hard political decision for their PM.
Not to mention Indonesia and the bottom third of Africa.
Australia looks at New Zealand as a soft touch for immigration, gangs and other organised crime, and terrorists.
It sure isn't a hard decision when we act so weak for so long and then weep buckets on tv about it.
"Australia looks at New Zealand as a soft touch"
i.e. conservative Australians have no principles, no shame, and view other people's decency as a weakness to be exploited.
Barely a year after 50 people were killed here by an Australian citizen terrorist, Fa'afoi and Little should be giving pretty stern advice to the PM.
How do you know they haven't?
That will only become public once this goes to court – which is where it's heading once some NGO gets its teeth into it.
At the moment Ardern's emotion sure looks like a poor political substitute for having a leg to stand on .
You reckon an NZ organisation will take our govt to court for not removing this person's citizenship?
This is going to go all the way to the Supreme Court no matter which way the state decides.
Taken there by who?
This woman is a white supremacist is she?
Possibly the mother left before the legislation was drawn up to revoke citizenship.
With the 501 legislation this is not backdated.
Not sure why that matters.
It matters because the woman would not have been barred from returning to Australia had she returned before the legislation came in.
It depends what the legislation says as to when it can be enforced. On return, on leaving or prior to the legislation.
The Australian Law Commission had a good hash at the citizenship revocation powers once the law was enacted:
https://www.lawcouncil.asn.au/publicassets/740b679e-15a1-e911-93fe-005056be13b5/3640%20-%20Review%20of%20Australian%20Citizenship%20Renunciation.pdf
Point 11 covers their objections to retrospectivity, and effects on children
Well if this IS the only country to deal, it's hardly surprising if no other country has failed to deal, now, is it.
It's very surprising that the New Zealand government is still being surprised.
Anyone who thinks media have over-egged our PM's anger, check the video: https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/jacinda-ardern-delivers-extraordinary-broadside-australia-over-woman-detained-in-turkey-abdicated-its-responsibilities?auto=6232517011001
Well removing one civil status was legal and considered a punishment for certain crimes.
btw, i would like to point out that Trump in the US also looked at ways to remove birth right citizen ship and gained citizenship from people whom he and his regime disapproved of. And one could consider the removal of voting rights to be part of that punishment.
In Germany we called people like that 'vogelfrei' and while that can mean in a positive as 'free as a bird' in the negative it also meant that this person could be killed, harmed, abused etc without any recourse to local lawenforcment and or help.
It was and could be again a good tool to keep people in place, and a good tool to get rid of competition, nuisances etc and generally the populace would not give a care if the headline ain't large enough for them to see it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_death#:~:text=Under%20the%20Holy%20Roman%20Empire,common%20form%20of%20civil%20death.
[Content deleted because it contained too many links that triggered Auto-Moderation]
this might be an excellent read to some on the origin of the term Vogelfrei und Staatenlos.
https://www.amazon.com/Homo-Sacer-Sovereign-Meridian-Aesthetics/dp/0804732183
The extract is from wikipedias article about the author of the Homer Sacer Project.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giorgio_Agamben#Homo_Sacer:_Sovereign_Power_and_Bare_Life_.281995.29
The laws that give us rights today are fairly new around 300 – 400 odd years, and only ever as good as the one who applies them.
That's genuinely interesting sabine. In the Anglo world we have the word 'outlaw' that seems related to this.
We don't use that word much nowadays because the state has become so all-encompassing it leaves no space for the outlaw to exist – but the concept remains.
in the german sense you would call it 'outlawed'.
English outlawry was Anglo-Saxon which is Germanic, so probably shares the same origin as the German status.
Frankly I only have to contemplate the hellish depths and insane criminality of ISIS for a few seconds to conclude NZ should revoke her citizenship as well – the Syrian's can have her. International law my arse, some actions just put you in another category.
We recently tracked down and prosecuted a 100yr old who had worked as a Nazi camp guard – what exactly is so different about this atrocity that has occurred under our noses in our lifetime? This particular woman chose to leave Australia illegally, to join a psychopathically violent and criminal terror cause, and now she gets to live with the consequences.
Every single person who was ever associated with ISIS should be tracked down, convicted and placed into lifetime incarceration somewhere very remote, secure and hellish. I honestly don't care how brutal that sounds.
But otherwise what Ad said. That our media will deflect and minimise this horror, to play us like violins with the 'helpless woman and children' card, is evidence only of our moral weakness and cupidity.
I suspect her contribution to global terrorism does not add up to a tiny fraction of 1% of that which the Australian born and bred, white-supremacist, and mass murderer gave the world.
Classic deflection. Her personal choice was to leave Australia illegally (they had tough counter terrorism laws in place already in 2014) and associate herself with an organisation the UN had declared to be terrorists. That alone confers culpability here.
If she seeks merciful treatment – and I do believe in that – then she should go and beg forgiveness from the Yazidi community first. Only they really have the right to redeem her and give her sanctuary.
Just like the mosque murderer, she was radicalised in Australia, not Syria, so there's that. Australia might want to have a look their own significant contribution to terrorism.
Just like the mosque murderer, she was radicalised in Australia,
I'm not so sure about our ChCh murderer – all the accounts I read suggest the radicalisation occurred during his travels in Europe, Turkey and Pakistan. His family clearly stated that he came back from his OE's a dramatically changed person.
As for our ISIL 'bride' – the Australian govt cannot be in any manner held responsible for her radicalisation. That would be entirely absurd proposition.
If you want to find the 'blame' for these people's actions – you're looking in all the wrong places.
The mosque shooter was a racist well before traveling. It's what happens in Australia. Excusing him and claiming it was Europe what did it is pretty gross really.
Australia has an embarrassing history with intolerance and racism. Queensland regularly elects far right wing racists to government. I think Australia has deep seated issues as a society and is where radicalised terrorists are born. Worse, their immigration policy of recent years shows they refuse to learn anything.
Interesting from David Fisher here:
It shows that Australia does nurture and export terrorism, be it Islamic or white supremacist. A regular industry they have going on there.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/isis-bride-grew-up-in-australia-now-theyre-sending-her-to-new-zealand/BIZEGW4EIUD4FPC46KKUDURRH4/
The mosque shooter was a racist well before traveling. It's what happens in Australia.
So now you've shifted the goalposts from 'radicalising' to 'all Australians are by default racists'.
Have you any idea how barkingly bigoted that sounds?
Australia is full of racists, especially Queensland.
So you've shifted all the blame onto Australia and in the meantime not one peep from you in condemnation of ISIL.
I think everyone can see how that reads.
Did we revoke the centenarian's citizenship?
German in Germany
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/10/europe/nazi-camp-guard-grm-intl-scli/index.html
So no.
The Australian Parliament has law that enables them to do just that. The US has similar grounds for 'denaturalisation'.
Citizenship is very much a basic and foundational human right – but it's not absolute. Statelessness arises for a very wide range of reasons both justified or otherwise and it's a recognised and complex problem as that article outlines.
Look the pragmatist in me realises NZ gets to suck it up in this case. Doesn’t mean I'm going to forget the vile criminality she eagerly sought to associate herself with.
What do we do with this class of stateless undesirables? And shouldn't we ascertain what her role actually was before rendering her stateless?
As a side question how do you think we should respond if Australia renounced the citizenship of the mass murderer currently incarcerated in Aotearoa?
I fully accept you wrote the OP in good faith and with good intentions. That I've expressed the other side of the case does not detract from the legitimate questions you ask.
I think you've known me long enough to have some clue that I have a particular experience with (albeit not directly) with the dark side of Islamic fundamentalism and that does not make me a disembodied, dispassionate observer here. So I plead guilty to presenting the case for the prosecution here.
And this is what should happened here – as with the post WW2 Nazis – a UN backed Court with the scope, power and resources to fully investigate the ISIL regime and account for everything that happened. That would be ideal.
Short of that it looks like we're stuck with this person, and we might as well get her and her children back to NZ and quit whining to the Australians about it.
As for your second question – well yes the Australians (like any nation) have the sovereign capacity to revoke his citizenship. But frankly what practical difference would it make in the circumstances?
Given that the terrorist aussie we have in our jail will never see the outside again it wont matter if aussie removed his citizenship.
She is not stateless Micky.
She has New Zealand citizenship. That is her state. The only way she can become stateless is if our Government was to cancel her citizenship. I realise that our PM is pretty angry but surely she is not actually planning to attempt to do that?
As far as the Mosque murderer goes can you tell us what other citizenship does he have? The Australian law doesn't, at least as far as I am aware, allow them to make someone stateless.
In theory NZ could have revoked her citizenship (section 16(a) of the Citizenship Act allows for it) leaving her as Australian, but being kind souls, we didn't. It's not just a matter of being annoyed about the treatment leaving her solely as a Kiwi, it's also that we had the same option, but chose not to follow it out of some (apparently misguided) trust that Australia would continue discussions about her status.
Ta. That's useful new information.
Do we have any examples of this provision being used? And if so in what circumstances – genuine curiosity.
Not from a quick search since it's mostly targeted at people who become citizens of another country and go to war against NZ (acts contrary to NZ's interests is the test). Would be a bit of a stretch here to declare the acquisition of Australian citizenship and assisting Isis as contrary to our interests (in that she didn't obtain Australian citizenship for that purpose), but could be tested if a minister was keen.
I note that what one can see of the children, they looked well dressed and cared for. That should count for something during the deliberations into the woman's future and the future for those children. I sincerely hope so.
The children I have considerable sympathy for, as for any human I would hope for them to have been born into better circumstances, with far better prospects.
But then I have to ask myself in what way are they any different to hundreds of millions of other similarly unfortunate children in the world at this moment – and can NZ rescue them all?
They're no different and each individual child is an absolute tragedy. But where a special circumstance prevails – such as in this case – where we may be able to give two of them a fighting chance we should grab it with both hands.
In this case I think the Aussie have well and truly outplayed us. In 2015 they put in place a lawful mechanism to revoke citizenship in these extreme circumstances. Whereas NZ did nothing.
Well it looks like we now get to suck it up and own her and her children. That's the pragmatist in me speaking – good for her children, but frankly I think she's escaping a justice she richly deserves.
So, you are the self-appointed judge, jury and executioner eh RedLogix. Oh to be so sinless and omnipotent!
I'm not going to be part of deflecting from, minimising or otherwise letting the crimes of ISIL gurgle down the memory hole.
Their crimes are well documented, and that pathological ideology still capable of resurgence.
You are deflecting – the issue was one woman, she is not ISIL! So, you are the self-appointed judge, jury and executioner eh RedLogix?
Usually justice is served after a crime has been committed. It is not a crime to travel, have a relationship or marriage with whomever one choses or to have children. Has it even been established that the woman even left Australia illegally?
Now, now. RL has had "a particular experience with with the dark side of Islamic fundamentalism".
A Muslim scratched his car in the Coolangatta Macca's car park.
Ah no. You think you're being clever when in reality – and I don't use this word all that often – you're actually being profoundly offensive.
But then I haven't explained the background, so you get a pass on this. While I'm a lot more open about my life than many participants choose – there are still some spaces I will keep private from low minds and prying bigots.
I thought it was funny.
Can i have a pass too, i need to go to the toilet.
You'd be ashamed of yourself if you knew the truth.
Now toddle off before you make a big mess.
It wasn't a crime to be a Nazi camp guard at the time either.
A most questionable statement but, if correct, it raises the question why a 100-year-old former Nazi guard was recently charged if it was not for merely having been a guard.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS-Totenkopfverb%C3%A4nde
As I said elsewhere – she actively chose to go to Syria – in order to provide moral, ideological support, and a sexual commitment, to aid and abet ISIL.
Male recruits all took up guns – she eagerly sought out and took up the role assigned to her by the terrorists. Equal culpability even if she wasn't firing bullets or slitting throats.
Yes, you’re repeating yourself there – I can read.
So, to summarise, this New Zealand woman has aided and abetted ISIL but not committed any other direct or indirect crimes against humans or humanity as far as you know? Will she be charged, when, where, by who, and what for? Irrespectively, you want to inflict the most brutal punishment on her (cf. @ 8) whilst having considerable sympathy for her children (cf. @ 9.1)?
You don’t think this imposes a major moral and complex conflict on/for Aotearoa-New Zealand and/or on you personally?
Is there such a thing in New Zealand Criminal Law for “[e]qual culpability” with regard to accomplices in a crime?
There must be lots of old German women that you could spend this time chasing.
Some do
If they had actively applied for roles in say the Gestapo and had actively supported that organisation's goals and methods – then yes.
Why does their gender render them immune?
Still if I had my way I’d be chasing Polish women – much more interesting in my experience.
Gestapo?? Have you now moved on from Nazi camp guards to Gestapo? Why?
What role(s) had the woman applied for and how exactly did she actively support ISIL’s goals and methods?
Who stated that their gender renders them immune?
But she hasn't, to the best of our knowledge, done the equivalent of a job in the gestapo.
Ah this is getting dumb.
If you fucking leave your home country, illegally as far as I aware – and travel to a fucking war zone, with the express intention of joining and supporting an organisation known to be engaged in psychopathically violent crimes, terror and genocide – then I don't care if all you did was wash fucking tea-towels.
What part of aiding and abetting don't you guys get?
And in my view ISIL in many respects made the Gestapo look like nice guys. Your 'equivalence' gambit is pathetic.
Best you give yourself a pass for a cup a tea.
The National Party’s politics is interesting here. Has there ever been votes in NZ by supporting Australia? Usually the other way round.
Always votes in sternly denouncing the 'other' – especially foreigners and brown folk.
One has to really narrow it down when dealing with the enemy within.
Gerry Brownlee?
Blast! I’d forgotten about him
Possibly not in supporting Australia specifically, but a lot more Kiwis benefit from the TTTA than Australians, making it difficult to complain too much as mutual tightening the screws hurts more Kiwis than Australians.
Well the Australian Government is doing a great job of shoving over to us criminal , undesirable, damaged individuals who have been created in Australia's society – not because it's right (it's not) but because they can.
Now we are pretty much stuck with this shit (and it is shit) so the NZ Government really should create an excessively funded wrap around agency to deal with these people who have been foisted upon us – I am talking mandatory counselling , monitoring, work assistance ,work training, housing assistance, assistance with community groups and frankly any other assistance we can give these people and I believe the Government should heavily over resource this agency so that the negative impact of the Australian Government actions on New Zealand Society can be minimised. Obviously such an agency would be expensive to create and maintain so I suggest the Agency be funded by an additional tax on Trading Banks of 1-2% (co-incidentally, of course, almost all Australian owned)
Oh and this agency should be announced with enormous publicity and fanfare – NZ Banks profit 2019 $5.7 billion so I m talking $57- $114 million funding . I imagine Scomo will be so happy
If only!
Wonder if Jacinda reminds Morrison of the responsibility Australia has in creating these terrorists in the first place. Including their Australian Christchurch mosque murderer. Whatever the outcome, I applaud Jacinda for her frank comments. Australians are brash and inclined to think they can walk all over New Zealand.
Right we are stuck with her (whenever she gets sent back to NZ). Australia is not going to take her back.
So what are we going to do with her? No point getting grumpy.
The death penalty is out, so what resources are we going to use to make sure she not doing 25 years to life in a few years time. (at even greater expense).
From David Fisher's article again:
You want the death penalty for that? Getting a bit hysterical I think.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/isis-bride-grew-up-in-australia-now-theyre-sending-her-to-new-zealand/BIZEGW4EIUD4FPC46KKUDURRH4/
"It doesn't mean she's been doing anything bad. Walking across the border with kids would seem to indicate she was a camp follower or concubine."
Fisher is pretty good usually – but on this occasion he's missed the obvious – this woman actively chose to leave Australia in order to become involved in ISIL. This was no 'unfortunate turn of events' in her life, she went in order to provide moral, ideological and sexual commitment to the terrorists involved.
If she had been a male she would have been holding a gun – her gender does not absolve or minimise her involvment here.
Edit: Or as Poisson puts it more precisely below – ‘aiding and abetting’.
Dumb kids do dumb kid stuff. If their daddy owns a vineyard or they're good at footie they get away with it.
What crimes and atrocities has the woman in question committed?
Aiding and abetting a known terrorist organisation by providing support is unlawful under security council resolutions for the last twenty years
Thanks.
And the punishment for those actions are determined in which Court and subsequently executed by which jurisdiction/authority?
Turkey would be the obvious jurisdiction,however Sultan Erdogan was their foremost supporter.
https://twitter.com/MaxAbrahms/status/954352501989535744
maybe we should send them to their victims such as the Kurds,having had to suffer tremendous crimes.
You mean, NZ should allow them back and then send them to the Kurds? Problem solved?
Too many airmiles (think of the planet) just walk them back over the border.
I like your pragmatic way of thinking and together with future amnesia (cue: Key and Mapp) it is a sure recipe for a happy and content life.
And while Erdogan surely played his part – we shouldn't overlook the role that Saudi Wahhabism had in creating ISIS in the first place.
Eventually Saudi itself had to go into damage control mode and wound up fighting back against it's bastard creation that had so wildly run amok – but it's still important to understand the pathological ideologies involved and where they came from.
Yes Saudi Arabia funded and using US and Israeli weapons.
Unless you're Yankistan of course.
Have sexual intercourse and having children been determined as a crime now? Love to be an observer at that trial!
What trial?
Can't say I agree at any level with the Australian decision but I assume she is an NZ citizen by birth and therefore the children are eligible to be registered as NZ citizens by descent – although they may have a claim to birth citizenship elsewhere? So I guess this falls into the suck it up category unless we turn and go down the road of not allowing people to be dual nationals – which is still the case for some countries. And maybe even try to sort out long term guest workers in Australia – though that might have to wait for an Australian labour government.
What I don't get if why Labour is expending political capital on this – it's not something we can do much about – unlike a lot of other local issues.
"What I don't get if why Labour is expending political capital on this – it's not something we can do much about – unlike a lot of other local issues."
Thats a good question….deflection from other issues they are under pressure on perhaps…and Aussies are always an easy target that unites the nation.
It is related to a very serious local issue:
Australia quite literally produces and exports violence and crime to its supposed close friend and partner.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/isis-bride-grew-up-in-australia-now-theyre-sending-her-to-new-zealand/BIZEGW4EIUD4FPC46KKUDURRH4/
No it doesn't. they're criminals who fall foul of all Aussie laws. which has a knock on effect.
If we had similar legislation and aussies who lived her did that, we could rid ourselves of undesirables too
Also from the above article:
Australia gleefully abdicates responsibility for the people they have helped rear. And Australia's pretence of partnership is a lie.
Soooo… go and become a terrorist and be a support person helping to fight against the aims and morals of the country that sheltered and educated you for 20 years and it's all ok and welcome back to a country that doesn't have to take you?
What aims and morals are these? Becoming increasingly nationalist and using your friend and neighbour as a dumping ground for crime?
being an australian citizen and adhering to australian law? would you like it if someone who wasn't a citizen of New Zealand committed crimes and anti social behaviour and got to stay here regardless of if they could be living elsewhere?
How do you feel about peter thiel?
I mostly agree with you DE, but I think the Australian policy would be seen as more reasonable if there was a cut off after living more than 10 yrs in Australia and/or it could be proven that they have no family in NZ.
And especially if they arrived in Aus as children under say 10yrs old.
I agree many of the 501's are crims who don't garner much sympathy, but there are also some pretty tragic stories of the policy being implemented with no regard to circumstances and NZ winds up having broken people dumped at our airports with no support and little hope of ever building a life here.
Even worse when they finish up being separated from family who're all established in Australia. Everyone knows that for all intents and purposes many of these people are really Australians and their govt is exploiting a loophole to NZ's detriment and increasing dismay.
I agree with the roll over. I think that’s unfair to say you can’t ever becc be a full citizen or a priority system.
but isis is not a roll over clause or humanitarian cause. It’s repudiation of the laws of the country that reared you, Au or NZ. If she didn’t have kids I’d say let her rot
Yup – I pretty much agree with both of those paras.
The irony here is that while the OP brings our attention to the citizenship status of one woman who in my view deserves little of our sympathy – there are many 100's thousands of kiwis living in Australia who aren't really citizens of either nation.
Technically the SCV444 allows them to live in Aus 'indefinitely' – but falls short of granting them full rights as permanent residents. While at the same time as the years go by their connections to NZ may well diminish or vanish altogether and the NZ passport they're holding has little to no relevance to their lives.
It's a slow burning issue that neither govt wants to really come to grips with – but eventually some sensible compromise must be achievable. A 10yr automatic rollover seems a decent place to start.
As I understand it these other criminals are not actually australian citizens? To me this is part of a much larger issue of long term guest workers from NZ who are in Australia for many years and unable to get citizenship plus the benefits from it. Plus we have the issue of the "two years and residency"now I'm off to Australia crowd to deal with.
Does Australia produce bigger better brighter criminals? Looks like it does – but unless we revert to "no dual citizenship" we will still have the ISIS issue and we will still have the criminal issue unless we reduce our number of long term guest workers over there.
It is the timing thats odd….Australia notified her in 2019 and revoked citizenship last year…why does the PM choose now to express public outrage??
Expedience
Umm, because she was arrested entering Turkey?
So she was
why isn't she then turkeys issue? or syria? she's been living there almost as long as she lived in New Zealand
What?
Pat asked why the PM 'chose now' to express outrage. You claimed it was expedience and I corrected you.
that's not correcting me. it's offering an opinion. Our government was informed at the same time.
they simply hoped she'd stay in syria
No doubt they did hope she'd stay in Syria, but fully expected she wouldn't which is why they brought it up with the Australian government previously.
Then Scumo stabbed us in the back.
The only reason it is news now is that she tried to leave Syria and was arrested.
The only reason it is news is jacinda tried to beat up Australia over it. Very odd and as RedLogix calls it a teeny soapbox to preen on our moral superiority.
We are morally superior, clearly. Why do you insist on dragging New Zealand down?
Lol. Yea we are. Voting for slogans while keeping our poor poorer
Sure, bro. A real crusader for the disenfranchised, aren't you.
and thank you…I had completely forgotten about her arrest…I am getting too cynical where this Gov is concerned.
It seems to go over everyone's head that Australia has removed the dual citizenship.
If this lady had been born in Australia, she could only be an Australian Citizen.
Australian's might be reactionary and conservative and on the border of nationally racist, but there immigration policy is clear cut and their adherence to it through bipartisanship leads to that. You might not like it but you can't fault it.
Australia is far more multi-cultural than New Zealand. there are far more Asian, eastern European and Middle eastern names in all walks of life there than in New Zealand.
We prevent foreign ownership, basically preventing ownership until nominal citizen ship. Australians prevent bastards becoming citizens. fair call
Australia is far more multi-cultural than New Zealand. there are far more Asian, eastern European and Middle eastern names in all walks of life there than in New Zealand.
Thank you for saying this. Having lived and worked in Aus for the past 8 years I'm consistently disappointed at how little so many kiwis actually know about the place. It's not perfect by any stretch – but the teensy little soapbox so many kiwis like to climb on and preen their moral superiority is a bit sad imo.
I was in Australia on a fortnightly basis for years. Security guards at the airport wearing Hijabs, Restaurant owners conversing in Farsi or vietnamese. Business owners we were trying to cajole into buying our exports being either of lebanese or greek extraction. large businesses too.
Sydney / Melbourne / Perth / Brisbane are all little londons. you have been far less likely to hear an aussie accent in the metropolitan area than you would hear a kiwi accent in anywhere in auckland.
My uncle is a dual national, he knows as he is NZ first and Aus as dual, he is living in Austrtalia by the grace of Australian laws. something 99.5% of dual nationals living in Australia accept and enjoy. getting wound up about the .5% of fuckwits who think it's a free pass seems awfully strange.
Goodness where do you live? I live in Wellington's southern suburbs and a more multi cultural place I have yet to be in. In our street of 15 houses a few years ago, we had a minority of born in NZ citizens, even now there are French X 2, South African X 2 Samoan X2, Turkish X2. We have Italian restaurants, Vietnamese, Indian (south & North) Chinese in the nearby suburbs.
Big cities are usually multi cultural. The real test is in small town NZ just as it is in small town Australia.
It does not surprise me in the slightest that Scomo has been/is a bit slippery. They have a different psyche from NZers.
I live in Auckland’s CBD. I use to live in wellington. If the street my Flat was on wasn’t filled with embassies you could have called it tip Top mighty white.
Are there classes of citizenship?
If you have dual citizenship, do you have primary and secondary citizenship?
Yeah were mates when it suits them then we are just a pawn in their domestic political battles when they need a common enemy to pick on and blame for everything that's wrong with Australia.
That is the extent of how much they value this " special " relationship "
The last National government encouraged and re enforced this bullying against our own people who left to better their lives with a chance of making it with decent pay and conditions and boy did the Ockers demand their pound of flesh in the form of federal and state taxes but no entitlements befitting an Australasian citizen an ANZAC brother with that special mateship they always wax lyrical about. Key did what he does best groveling to the Yanks or the treacherous Aussies. He was happy to use the many leaving kiwis escaping the oppressive neo liberal slavery he was all about protecting as a campaign issue in 2008 but soon forgot all that when Kiwis ended up prostituting their services with no safety net and stood by while Australia shit all over their so called brothers!!
We stood up once against one of the most powerful countries on earth on the principles of our own independent foreign policy in 1985-87 and the sense of pride that stemmed from that has been like everything else sold and traded away. That is almost treason in my book.
And just in case anyone is still interested – it looks like Turkey is going to deport the woman to NZ.
Phew. You dodged a bullet there.
But then perhaps not.
The story has changed over the course of the morning and now states it is unclear where she is being deported to.
I doubt whether NZ would let her end up on Manus Island.