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Aussie Aussie Aussie, Oi Oi Oi …

Written By: - Date published: 7:30 am, February 17th, 2021 - 144 comments
Categories: Andrew Little, australian politics, jacinda ardern, scoundrels - Tags:

Some international news yesterday as Jacinda Ardern chose to use decidedly undiplomatic speech to address Australia’s removal of its citizenship from a Jihadi bride leaving her as New Zealand’s problem, even though her link to New Zealand was tenuous and she was for all intents and purposes Australia’s problem.  And even though Ardern had previously asked Scomo to be careful with the issue.

From Radio New Zealand:

Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has lashed out at Australia for dumping responsibility for a woman and two young children detained at the Turkish border on New Zealand.

The 26-year-old detainee – described by the Turkish government as an Islamic State terrorist – was caught trying to enter Turkey illegally from Syria.

Ardern said the woman, who had dual citizenship, left for Australia when she was six and travelled to Syria from Australia on an Australian passport.

Ardern said she directly raised the matter with the Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison and asked that they work together to resolve the issue.

“I was then informed in the following year that Australia had unilaterally revoked the citizenship of the individual involved. You can imagine my response.

“Since then we have continually raised with Australia our view that their decision was wrong, we continue to raise that view.

“My concern however, now, is that we have a situation where someone is now detained with two small children,” she said.

Legally the woman’s citizenship now only lies with New Zealand.

“I never believed that the right response was to simply have a race to revoke people’s citizenship, that is just not the right thing to do.”

We will put our hands up when we need to own the situation. We expected the same of Australia, they did not act in good faith.”

“If the shoe was on the other foot we would take responsibility, that would be the right thing to do, and I ask of Australia that they do the same,” she said.

She said New Zealand officials would be working to do welfare checks of those involved, and would be engaging with Turkish authorities.

“Regardless of their circumstances, regardless of whether have committed offences and particularly we have obligations when they have children involved.

“I would argue Australia holds those obligations too.”

There are some pretty fundamental human rights at stake.  Just check the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights if you need proof.  Protected rights include this one:

Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.”

And these two:

Everyone has the right to a nationality …

No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

Of course Australia has not been the best at recognizing international human rights and respecting the rights of an individual.  Just read any of the Standard posts about Peter Dutton to realize this is another example of weaponised brutality for political advantage.

And Australia’s immigration policies and practiced cruelty has caused problems for the relationship with New Zealand in the past.  It was just 12 months ago when Ardern told Morrison that Australia should not deport to New Zealand its people and its problems.

A couple of years ago Andrew Little also stood up to them.  This is what I wrote at the time:

The Australians are upset with Andrew Little and are throwing Donald Trump type tantrums to show their displeasure.

What has he done to attract their displeasure?  He accused the Australian Government of having a deportation policy with what appears to have a venal, political strain.

The policy relates to a 2014 law change which increased the Minister of Immigration’s powers to cancel the visas of Kiwis, including those who have lived in Australia for extended periods of time who are deemed to be not of “good character”.

The change of policy has meant that many kiwis have been thrown into custody, separated from family and removed to a country they may not have any links with.

The cases are numerous but include a 17 year old held in an adult detention centre for non violent offending in breach of International Treaties protecting young people, as well as the case of Ko Hapua and Lee Tepuia, both who were deported because they belonged to motorcycle gangs that were not actually illegal.

Tepuia’s case in particular is jaw dropping.  He had lived in Australia since 2005 and his youngest daughter was an Australian.  His forcible removal from his wife and four children has had a devastating effect on him.

And he kept winning in Court yet despite this Dutton kept cancelling his visa and not telling him why.

When you also consider the appalling treatment that refugees have been subject to in Nauru you get an overwhelming feeling that people are being harassed and humiliated by Dutton and Co for political gain.

And there was this earlier attempt to implement the power to remove an Australian’s citizenship even if it was the only citizenship that they had.  I wrote this in 2016:

In Tony Abbott’s Australia there was a recent attempt to attack a fundamental human right, that of citizenship by granting the Minister of Immigration the right to withdraw an individual’s Australian citizenship, even if it was the only citizenship the individual had.

It was a covert attempt from within Abbott’s cabinet and was quickly shut down by others with a proper comprehension of the importance of citizenship and human rights.

It was not a general power, it was to be applied only against those suspected of terrorism related offences.  But the fact that it was even considered, and the leaking of transcripts of what was said in Cabinet, suggests that Abbott’s tenure as Prime Minister may again be on the ropes.

The proposal was raised by Immigration Minister, Peter Dutton.  Remarkably there was no policy paper to present and senior members of Cabinet including the Deputy Prime Minister were not aware that the idea was being proposed before it occurred.  It was brought up at the end of a cabinet meeting with no paperwork.

The Sydney Morning Herald ran this story which included these remarkable quotes from within the cabinet meeting in question:

Malcolm Turnbull attacked the measure:

This is an extraordinary proposition … [a] person’s citizenship is of enormous importance, intrinsic to themselves. Take me. The only people who’ve lived in Australia longer than my family are Aboriginal. I have no other identity. Are we seriously saying some minister could take my citizenship?

Only if you’re a terrorist, was the rejoinder. “Only if you are someone the minister thinks is a terrorist,” Turnbull corrected.

You know that things are particularly freaking weird when Barnaby Joyce opposes something ultra conservative.  But that is what happened in this case.

It is not only the screaming egregious breach of human rights that is what is wrong here.  It is also the trashing of New Zealand Australian diplomatic relations while engaging in egregious breaches of human rights that is the kicker.

National is backing Australia’s view.  I am pretty sure that if Judith Collins was in control the Jihadi’s bride’s kiwi citizenship would be taken off her.  The consequences to her two young children are irrelevant.

We should not be surprised.  Australia’s handling of the rights of kiwis who have spent the vast majority of their lives in Australia and who have been treated with contempt has caused significant damage to the Aotearoa Australia relationship.  This particular incident is the cherry on the top.

144 comments on “Aussie Aussie Aussie, Oi Oi Oi … ”

  1. Ad 1

    Oranga Tamariki, time to fly in cape and all …

    • bwaghorn 1.1

      Yip bring back the kids and leave the jihadi bride in Turkey, they'll be better off without her and it sends a message to any other thicko that thinks being a terrorist breeding unit is a good idea.

      • Incognito 1.1.1

        You approve of uplifting those children because they are at risk when cared for by their mother?

        • bwaghorn

          What sort of life will a kid raised by a terrorist get,? filled with hate is all they'll get . Plus it will send a message.

          • Incognito

            Fair enough. Now all New Zealand Government has to do is to find some loving foster parents and they’ll live long and happy ever after. How hard can it be?

  2. Treetop 2

    I would like to know if the mother knew her Australian citizenship would be revoked before she left Australia?

    It is not straight forward when it comes to the welfare of the children and which country has the say over the welfare of the children.

    What is the status of the children when it comes to international law?

    A person cannot be denied entry to their country of birth unless there is legislation for this.

    • mickysavage 2.1

      Possibly not. I presume that the children are Syrian nationals but they would have a ery strong case to be given New Zealand residence given the circumstances.

      • Treetop 2.1.1

        The residence of the children needs to be determined.

        The children appear to be Syrian, they are fatherless and their father's were from Switzerland. The mothers is widowed and has NZ citizenship.

        1. Can the mother ask for entry into Switzerland?

        2. Has the mother asked for entry to NZ for her children?

        3. Can Australia revoke entry for her children?

        • Treetop

          Correction Sweden and not Switzerland.

        • Craig H

          If the mother has NZ citizenship by birth or grant (based on media coverage, she was born here so probably has citizenship by birth), the children are eligible for NZ citizenship by descent, so that's probably the practical answer.

    • Muttonbird 2.2

      Left in 2014. Law came in 2015. Amended in 2018. I think.

  3. Johnr 3

    Thanks for that collation.

    Further evidence of a detestable race of people

  4. Pat 4

    From all accounts the PMs displeasure with Australia dosnt even rate in Oz…a non event.

    • Morrissey 4.1

      Nonsense. Jacinda Ardern is extremely popular in Australia, and her mauling of the unlikeable Morrison will play very well indeed.

    • David 4.2

      It was the 27th item when I scrolled down the Sydney Morning Herald website yesterday evening so yep, guess it’s largely gone unnoticed in Australia. The law allowing her dual citizenship to be revoked was passed in 2015. Depending on which media you listen to her citizenship was revoked in 2019 or 2020. Old news over there.

      • Pat 4.2.1

        Yep , couple family members in two states hadnt heard a thing about it and shrugged ….NZ barely gets a mention in OZ media and nobody cares

    • Gabby 4.3

      Well it wouldn't would it. Anyway her displeasure seems more at ScoMoFo and his Ilk.

  5. Ad 5

    No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

    So it would be very hard to say that the Australian government's move to deprive this person of their citizenship was arbitrary. They did it with specific legislation which sets out those extreme conditions and the evidence required for that deprivation of citizenship.

    And by electing to have dual citizenship the person certainly ensured they had options to change nationality.

    I would feel a whole lot more comfortable if our Prime Minister said that before the person steps foot inside this country, they will have an SIS file a foot thick and that the system will follow her penumbra-like.

    In this century, no other country in the southern hemisphere has had to deal with terror threats like we have, and no other intelligence community has failed to deal with it. And yes, they have to look in multiple directions at once. No, they don't have to disclose all that evidence. The PM has had a full legislative rehearsal to be able to anticipate this current situation and passed on it.

    This has all the hallmarks of building to be an Ahmed Zaoui. The applicant will generate local advocates who will play the our emotive media like a black grand piano. Our state should test this person as long as it needs to.

  6. Sabine 7

    Well removing one civil status was legal and considered a punishment for certain crimes.

    btw, i would like to point out that Trump in the US also looked at ways to remove birth right citizen ship and gained citizenship from people whom he and his regime disapproved of. And one could consider the removal of voting rights to be part of that punishment.

    In Germany we called people like that 'vogelfrei' and while that can mean in a positive as 'free as a bird' in the negative it also meant that this person could be killed, harmed, abused etc without any recourse to local lawenforcment and or help.

    It was and could be again a good tool to keep people in place, and a good tool to get rid of competition, nuisances etc and generally the populace would not give a care if the headline ain't large enough for them to see it.


    [Content deleted because it contained too many links that triggered Auto-Moderation]

    • Sabine 7.1

      this might be an excellent read to some on the origin of the term Vogelfrei und Staatenlos.

      Agamben opines that laws have always assumed the authority to define "bare life" – zoe, as opposed to bios, that is 'qualified life' – by making this exclusive operation, while at the same time gaining power over it by making it the subject of political control. The power of law to actively separate "political" beings (citizens) from "bare life" (bodies) has carried on from Antiquity to Modernity – from, literally, Aristotle to Auschwitz. Aristotle, as Agamben notes, constitutes political life via a simultaneous inclusion and exclusion of "bare life": as Aristotle says, man is an animal born to life (Gk. ζῆν, zen), but existing with regard to the good life (εὖ ζῆν, eu zen) which can be achieved through politics.[38] Bare life, in this ancient conception of politics, is that which must be transformed, via the State, into the "good life"; that is, bare life is that which is supposedly excluded from the higher aims of the state, yet is included precisely so that it may be transformed into this "good life". Sovereignty, then, is conceived from ancient times as the power which determines what or who is to be incorporated into the political body (in accord with its bios) by means of the more originary exclusion (or exception) of what is to remain outside the political body—which is at the same time the source of that body's composition (zoe).[39] According to Agamben, biopower, which takes the bare lives of the citizens into its political calculations, may be more marked in the modern state, but has essentially existed since the beginnings of sovereignty in the West, since this structure of ex-ception is essential to the core concept of sovereignty.[40]

      The extract is from wikipedias article about the author of the Homer Sacer Project.


      The laws that give us rights today are fairly new around 300 – 400 odd years, and only ever as good as the one who applies them.

      • RedLogix 7.1.1

        That's genuinely interesting sabine. In the Anglo world we have the word 'outlaw' that seems related to this.

        We don't use that word much nowadays because the state has become so all-encompassing it leaves no space for the outlaw to exist – but the concept remains.

  7. RedLogix 8

    Frankly I only have to contemplate the hellish depths and insane criminality of ISIS for a few seconds to conclude NZ should revoke her citizenship as well – the Syrian's can have her. International law my arse, some actions just put you in another category.

    We recently tracked down and prosecuted a 100yr old who had worked as a Nazi camp guard – what exactly is so different about this atrocity that has occurred under our noses in our lifetime? This particular woman chose to leave Australia illegally, to join a psychopathically violent and criminal terror cause, and now she gets to live with the consequences.

    Every single person who was ever associated with ISIS should be tracked down, convicted and placed into lifetime incarceration somewhere very remote, secure and hellish. I honestly don't care how brutal that sounds.

    But otherwise what Ad said. That our media will deflect and minimise this horror, to play us like violins with the 'helpless woman and children' card, is evidence only of our moral weakness and cupidity.

    • Muttonbird 8.1

      I suspect her contribution to global terrorism does not add up to a tiny fraction of 1% of that which the Australian born and bred, white-supremacist, and mass murderer gave the world.

      • RedLogix 8.1.1

        Classic deflection. Her personal choice was to leave Australia illegally (they had tough counter terrorism laws in place already in 2014) and associate herself with an organisation the UN had declared to be terrorists. That alone confers culpability here.

        If she seeks merciful treatment – and I do believe in that – then she should go and beg forgiveness from the Yazidi community first. Only they really have the right to redeem her and give her sanctuary.

        • Muttonbird

          Just like the mosque murderer, she was radicalised in Australia, not Syria, so there's that. Australia might want to have a look their own significant contribution to terrorism.

          • RedLogix

            Just like the mosque murderer, she was radicalised in Australia,

            I'm not so sure about our ChCh murderer – all the accounts I read suggest the radicalisation occurred during his travels in Europe, Turkey and Pakistan. His family clearly stated that he came back from his OE's a dramatically changed person.

            As for our ISIL 'bride' – the Australian govt cannot be in any manner held responsible for her radicalisation. That would be entirely absurd proposition.

            If you want to find the 'blame' for these people's actions – you're looking in all the wrong places.

            • Muttonbird

              The mosque shooter was a racist well before traveling. It's what happens in Australia. Excusing him and claiming it was Europe what did it is pretty gross really.

              Australia has an embarrassing history with intolerance and racism. Queensland regularly elects far right wing racists to government. I think Australia has deep seated issues as a society and is where radicalised terrorists are born. Worse, their immigration policy of recent years shows they refuse to learn anything.

              Interesting from David Fisher here:

              In 2015, the prospect New Zealanders were among those who had travelled to marry fighters was raised by NZ Security Intelligence Service director-general Rebecca Kitteridge, who told MPs that since 2014 “New Zealand women [had been] travelling to Iraq and Syria”.

              It later emerged none of the dozen women known of by the NZSIS left from New Zealand. Instead, they had travelled from Australia.

              It shows that Australia does nurture and export terrorism, be it Islamic or white supremacist. A regular industry they have going on there.


              • RedLogix

                The mosque shooter was a racist well before traveling. It's what happens in Australia.

                So now you've shifted the goalposts from 'radicalising' to 'all Australians are by default racists'.

                Have you any idea how barkingly bigoted that sounds?

    • Gabby 8.2

      Did we revoke the centenarian's citizenship?

    • mickysavage 8.3

      What do we do with this class of stateless undesirables? And shouldn't we ascertain what her role actually was before rendering her stateless?

      As a side question how do you think we should respond if Australia renounced the citizenship of the mass murderer currently incarcerated in Aotearoa?

      • RedLogix 8.3.1

        I fully accept you wrote the OP in good faith and with good intentions. That I've expressed the other side of the case does not detract from the legitimate questions you ask.

        I think you've known me long enough to have some clue that I have a particular experience with (albeit not directly) with the dark side of Islamic fundamentalism and that does not make me a disembodied, dispassionate observer here. So I plead guilty to presenting the case for the prosecution here.

        And this is what should happened here – as with the post WW2 Nazis – a UN backed Court with the scope, power and resources to fully investigate the ISIL regime and account for everything that happened. That would be ideal.

        Short of that it looks like we're stuck with this person, and we might as well get her and her children back to NZ and quit whining to the Australians about it.

        As for your second question – well yes the Australians (like any nation) have the sovereign capacity to revoke his citizenship. But frankly what practical difference would it make in the circumstances?

      • bwaghorn 8.3.2

        Given that the terrorist aussie we have in our jail will never see the outside again it wont matter if aussie removed his citizenship.

      • alwyn 8.3.3

        She is not stateless Micky.

        She has New Zealand citizenship. That is her state. The only way she can become stateless is if our Government was to cancel her citizenship. I realise that our PM is pretty angry but surely she is not actually planning to attempt to do that?

        As far as the Mosque murderer goes can you tell us what other citizenship does he have? The Australian law doesn't, at least as far as I am aware, allow them to make someone stateless.

    • Craig H 8.4

      In theory NZ could have revoked her citizenship (section 16(a) of the Citizenship Act allows for it) leaving her as Australian, but being kind souls, we didn't. It's not just a matter of being annoyed about the treatment leaving her solely as a Kiwi, it's also that we had the same option, but chose not to follow it out of some (apparently misguided) trust that Australia would continue discussions about her status.

      • RedLogix 8.4.1

        Ta. That's useful new information.

        Do we have any examples of this provision being used? And if so in what circumstances – genuine curiosity.

        • Craig H

          Not from a quick search since it's mostly targeted at people who become citizens of another country and go to war against NZ (acts contrary to NZ's interests is the test). Would be a bit of a stretch here to declare the acquisition of Australian citizenship and assisting Isis as contrary to our interests (in that she didn't obtain Australian citizenship for that purpose), but could be tested if a minister was keen.

  8. Anne 9

    I note that what one can see of the children, they looked well dressed and cared for. That should count for something during the deliberations into the woman's future and the future for those children. I sincerely hope so.

    • RedLogix 9.1

      The children I have considerable sympathy for, as for any human I would hope for them to have been born into better circumstances, with far better prospects.

      But then I have to ask myself in what way are they any different to hundreds of millions of other similarly unfortunate children in the world at this moment – and can NZ rescue them all?

      • Anne 9.1.1

        …what way are they any different to hundreds of millions of other similarly unfortunate children in the world at this moment – and can NZ rescue them all?

        They're no different and each individual child is an absolute tragedy. But where a special circumstance prevails – such as in this case – where we may be able to give two of them a fighting chance we should grab it with both hands.

        • RedLogix

          In this case I think the Aussie have well and truly outplayed us. In 2015 they put in place a lawful mechanism to revoke citizenship in these extreme circumstances. Whereas NZ did nothing.

          Well it looks like we now get to suck it up and own her and her children. That's the pragmatist in me speaking – good for her children, but frankly I think she's escaping a justice she richly deserves.

          • aom

            So, you are the self-appointed judge, jury and executioner eh RedLogix. Oh to be so sinless and omnipotent!

            • RedLogix

              I'm not going to be part of deflecting from, minimising or otherwise letting the crimes of ISIL gurgle down the memory hole.

              Their crimes are well documented, and that pathological ideology still capable of resurgence.

              • aom

                You are deflecting – the issue was one woman, she is not ISIL! So, you are the self-appointed judge, jury and executioner eh RedLogix?

                Usually justice is served after a crime has been committed. It is not a crime to travel, have a relationship or marriage with whomever one choses or to have children. Has it even been established that the woman even left Australia illegally?

                • Muttonbird

                  Now, now. RL has had "a particular experience with with the dark side of Islamic fundamentalism".

                  A Muslim scratched his car in the Coolangatta Macca's car park.

                  • RedLogix

                    Ah no. You think you're being clever when in reality – and I don't use this word all that often – you're actually being profoundly offensive.

                    But then I haven't explained the background, so you get a pass on this. While I'm a lot more open about my life than many participants choose – there are still some spaces I will keep private from low minds and prying bigots.

                • RedLogix

                  It wasn't a crime to be a Nazi camp guard at the time either.

                  • Incognito

                    A most questionable statement but, if correct, it raises the question why a 100-year-old former Nazi guard was recently charged if it was not for merely having been a guard.


                    • RedLogix

                      As I said elsewhere – she actively chose to go to Syria – in order to provide moral, ideological support, and a sexual commitment, to aid and abet ISIL.

                      Male recruits all took up guns – she eagerly sought out and took up the role assigned to her by the terrorists. Equal culpability even if she wasn't firing bullets or slitting throats.

                    • Incognito []

                      Yes, you’re repeating yourself there – I can read.

                      So, to summarise, this New Zealand woman has aided and abetted ISIL but not committed any other direct or indirect crimes against humans or humanity as far as you know? Will she be charged, when, where, by who, and what for? Irrespectively, you want to inflict the most brutal punishment on her (cf. @ 8) whilst having considerable sympathy for her children (cf. @ 9.1)?

                      You don’t think this imposes a major moral and complex conflict on/for Aotearoa-New Zealand and/or on you personally?

                      Is there such a thing in New Zealand Criminal Law for “[e]qual culpability” with regard to accomplices in a crime?

                    • solkta

                      There must be lots of old German women that you could spend this time chasing.

                    • Incognito []

                      Some do

                    • RedLogix

                      If they had actively applied for roles in say the Gestapo and had actively supported that organisation's goals and methods – then yes.

                      Why does their gender render them immune?

                      Still if I had my way I’d be chasing Polish women – much more interesting in my experience.

                    • Incognito []

                      Gestapo?? Have you now moved on from Nazi camp guards to Gestapo? Why?

                      What role(s) had the woman applied for and how exactly did she actively support ISIL’s goals and methods?

                      Who stated that their gender renders them immune?

                    • solkta

                      But she hasn't, to the best of our knowledge, done the equivalent of a job in the gestapo.

                    • RedLogix

                      Ah this is getting dumb.

                      If you fucking leave your home country, illegally as far as I aware – and travel to a fucking war zone, with the express intention of joining and supporting an organisation known to be engaged in psychopathically violent crimes, terror and genocide – then I don't care if all you did was wash fucking tea-towels.

                      What part of aiding and abetting don't you guys get?

                      And in my view ISIL in many respects made the Gestapo look like nice guys. Your 'equivalence' gambit is pathetic.

                    • solkta

                      Best you give yourself a pass for a cup a tea.

  9. Stephen D 10

    The National Party’s politics is interesting here. Has there ever been votes in NZ by supporting Australia? Usually the other way round.

  10. Barfly 11

    Well the Australian Government is doing a great job of shoving over to us criminal , undesirable, damaged individuals who have been created in Australia's society – not because it's right (it's not) but because they can.

    Now we are pretty much stuck with this shit (and it is shit) so the NZ Government really should create an excessively funded wrap around agency to deal with these people who have been foisted upon us – I am talking mandatory counselling , monitoring, work assistance ,work training, housing assistance, assistance with community groups and frankly any other assistance we can give these people and I believe the Government should heavily over resource this agency so that the negative impact of the Australian Government actions on New Zealand Society can be minimised. Obviously such an agency would be expensive to create and maintain so I suggest the Agency be funded by an additional tax on Trading Banks of 1-2% (co-incidentally, of course, almost all Australian owned)

    Oh and this agency should be announced with enormous publicity and fanfare – NZ Banks profit 2019 $5.7 billion so I m talking $57- $114 million funding . I imagine Scomo will be so happy


  11. Reality 12

    Wonder if Jacinda reminds Morrison of the responsibility Australia has in creating these terrorists in the first place. Including their Australian Christchurch mosque murderer. Whatever the outcome, I applaud Jacinda for her frank comments. Australians are brash and inclined to think they can walk all over New Zealand.

  12. Brendan 13

    Right we are stuck with her (whenever she gets sent back to NZ). Australia is not going to take her back.

    So what are we going to do with her? No point getting grumpy.

    The death penalty is out, so what resources are we going to use to make sure she not doing 25 years to life in a few years time. (at even greater expense).

    • Muttonbird 13.1

      From David Fisher's article again:

      "The adult, a 26-year-old woman named S.A. was identified as a Daesh [Isis] terrorist wanted with a 'blue notice'."

      Intelligence expert Dr Paul Buchanan, of 36th Parallel Assessments, said the blue notice indicated Aden was sought for information rather than acts of terrorism.

      "It doesn't mean she's been doing anything bad. Walking across the border with kids would seem to indicate she was a camp follower or concubine."

      You want the death penalty for that? Getting a bit hysterical I think.


      • RedLogix 13.1.1

        "It doesn't mean she's been doing anything bad. Walking across the border with kids would seem to indicate she was a camp follower or concubine."

        Fisher is pretty good usually – but on this occasion he's missed the obvious – this woman actively chose to leave Australia in order to become involved in ISIL. This was no 'unfortunate turn of events' in her life, she went in order to provide moral, ideological and sexual commitment to the terrorists involved.

        If she had been a male she would have been holding a gun – her gender does not absolve or minimise her involvment here.

        Edit: Or as Poisson puts it more precisely below – ‘aiding and abetting’.

    • Incognito 13.2

      What crimes and atrocities has the woman in question committed?

      • Poission 13.2.1

        Aiding and abetting a known terrorist organisation by providing support is unlawful under security council resolutions for the last twenty years

        • Incognito


          And the punishment for those actions are determined in which Court and subsequently executed by which jurisdiction/authority?

          • Poission

            Turkey would be the obvious jurisdiction,however Sultan Erdogan was their foremost supporter.

            maybe we should send them to their victims such as the Kurds,having had to suffer tremendous crimes.

            • Incognito

              maybe we should send them to their victims such as the Kurds [my emphasis]

              You mean, NZ should allow them back and then send them to the Kurds? Problem solved?

            • RedLogix

              And while Erdogan surely played his part – we shouldn't overlook the role that Saudi Wahhabism had in creating ISIS in the first place.

              The rise of the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) has become somewhat of a revelation to the international community over the last several months. Commencing with the desertion from Al-Qaeda, to the self-proclamation of Caliph by its leader Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi, and finally the surge in Iraq and Syria, each move has occurred without a countervailing effort. In order to conceptualize the mentality of ISIS and its motivation, look no further than inside the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia to examine how its puritanical Wahhabi doctrine has enabled the ideology of ISIS and terrorist groups alike, and will continue to do so for potential Islamic extremist groups in the future.

              Eventually Saudi itself had to go into damage control mode and wound up fighting back against it's bastard creation that had so wildly run amok – but it's still important to understand the pathological ideologies involved and where they came from.

        • Gabby

          Unless you're Yankistan of course.

        • aom

          Have sexual intercourse and having children been determined as a crime now? Love to be an observer at that trial!

  13. RedBaronCV 14

    Can't say I agree at any level with the Australian decision but I assume she is an NZ citizen by birth and therefore the children are eligible to be registered as NZ citizens by descent – although they may have a claim to birth citizenship elsewhere? So I guess this falls into the suck it up category unless we turn and go down the road of not allowing people to be dual nationals – which is still the case for some countries. And maybe even try to sort out long term guest workers in Australia – though that might have to wait for an Australian labour government.

    What I don't get if why Labour is expending political capital on this – it's not something we can do much about – unlike a lot of other local issues.

    • Pat 14.1

      "What I don't get if why Labour is expending political capital on this – it's not something we can do much about – unlike a lot of other local issues."

      Thats a good question….deflection from other issues they are under pressure on perhaps…and Aussies are always an easy target that unites the nation.

    • Muttonbird 14.2

      It is related to a very serious local issue:

      The case has brought quick parallels with Australia's ejection to New Zealand of criminals born here but who grew up there.

      Their growing numbers has brought a scale, sophistication and threat of violence to organised crime in New Zealand that outstrips the operation of traditional New Zealand criminal networks.

      Australia quite literally produces and exports violence and crime to its supposed close friend and partner.


      • DukeEll 14.2.1

        No it doesn't. they're criminals who fall foul of all Aussie laws. which has a knock on effect.

        If we had similar legislation and aussies who lived her did that, we could rid ourselves of undesirables too

        • Muttonbird

          Also from the above article:

          Islamic Women's Council national coordinator Aliya Danzeisen linked Australia's action over the 26-year-old with its 501 programme that stripped passports from New Zealand-born criminals and sent them back over the Tasman.

          "What's on my mind is the concept of country's responsibilities for the people they have helped rear. If Australia was in partnership with New Zealand, they would be assisting with supporting people and addressing these issues of radicalisation.

          "Australia just keeps sending people back to us. It smacks of injustice and a lack of partnership."

          Australia gleefully abdicates responsibility for the people they have helped rear. And Australia's pretence of partnership is a lie.

          • DukeEll

            Soooo… go and become a terrorist and be a support person helping to fight against the aims and morals of the country that sheltered and educated you for 20 years and it's all ok and welcome back to a country that doesn't have to take you?

            • Muttonbird

              What aims and morals are these? Becoming increasingly nationalist and using your friend and neighbour as a dumping ground for crime?

              • DukeEll

                being an australian citizen and adhering to australian law? would you like it if someone who wasn't a citizen of New Zealand committed crimes and anti social behaviour and got to stay here regardless of if they could be living elsewhere?

                How do you feel about peter thiel?

                • RedLogix

                  I mostly agree with you DE, but I think the Australian policy would be seen as more reasonable if there was a cut off after living more than 10 yrs in Australia and/or it could be proven that they have no family in NZ.

                  And especially if they arrived in Aus as children under say 10yrs old.

                  I agree many of the 501's are crims who don't garner much sympathy, but there are also some pretty tragic stories of the policy being implemented with no regard to circumstances and NZ winds up having broken people dumped at our airports with no support and little hope of ever building a life here.

                  Even worse when they finish up being separated from family who're all established in Australia. Everyone knows that for all intents and purposes many of these people are really Australians and their govt is exploiting a loophole to NZ's detriment and increasing dismay.

                  • DukeEll

                    I agree with the roll over. I think that’s unfair to say you can’t ever becc be a full citizen or a priority system.

                    but isis is not a roll over clause or humanitarian cause. It’s repudiation of the laws of the country that reared you, Au or NZ. If she didn’t have kids I’d say let her rot

                    • RedLogix

                      Yup – I pretty much agree with both of those paras.

                      The irony here is that while the OP brings our attention to the citizenship status of one woman who in my view deserves little of our sympathy – there are many 100's thousands of kiwis living in Australia who aren't really citizens of either nation.

                      Technically the SCV444 allows them to live in Aus 'indefinitely' – but falls short of granting them full rights as permanent residents. While at the same time as the years go by their connections to NZ may well diminish or vanish altogether and the NZ passport they're holding has little to no relevance to their lives.

                      It's a slow burning issue that neither govt wants to really come to grips with – but eventually some sensible compromise must be achievable. A 10yr automatic rollover seems a decent place to start.

      • RedBaronCV 14.2.2

        As I understand it these other criminals are not actually australian citizens? To me this is part of a much larger issue of long term guest workers from NZ who are in Australia for many years and unable to get citizenship plus the benefits from it. Plus we have the issue of the "two years and residency"now I'm off to Australia crowd to deal with.

        Does Australia produce bigger better brighter criminals? Looks like it does – but unless we revert to "no dual citizenship" we will still have the ISIS issue and we will still have the criminal issue unless we reduce our number of long term guest workers over there.

    • Pat 14.3

      It is the timing thats odd….Australia notified her in 2019 and revoked citizenship last year…why does the PM choose now to express public outrage??

  14. DukeEll 15

    It seems to go over everyone's head that Australia has removed the dual citizenship.

    If this lady had been born in Australia, she could only be an Australian Citizen.

    Australian's might be reactionary and conservative and on the border of nationally racist, but there immigration policy is clear cut and their adherence to it through bipartisanship leads to that. You might not like it but you can't fault it.

    Australia is far more multi-cultural than New Zealand. there are far more Asian, eastern European and Middle eastern names in all walks of life there than in New Zealand.

    We prevent foreign ownership, basically preventing ownership until nominal citizen ship. Australians prevent bastards becoming citizens. fair call

    • RedLogix 15.1

      Australia is far more multi-cultural than New Zealand. there are far more Asian, eastern European and Middle eastern names in all walks of life there than in New Zealand.

      Thank you for saying this. Having lived and worked in Aus for the past 8 years I'm consistently disappointed at how little so many kiwis actually know about the place. It's not perfect by any stretch – but the teensy little soapbox so many kiwis like to climb on and preen their moral superiority is a bit sad imo.

      • DukeEll 15.1.1

        I was in Australia on a fortnightly basis for years. Security guards at the airport wearing Hijabs, Restaurant owners conversing in Farsi or vietnamese. Business owners we were trying to cajole into buying our exports being either of lebanese or greek extraction. large businesses too.

        Sydney / Melbourne / Perth / Brisbane are all little londons. you have been far less likely to hear an aussie accent in the metropolitan area than you would hear a kiwi accent in anywhere in auckland.

        My uncle is a dual national, he knows as he is NZ first and Aus as dual, he is living in Austrtalia by the grace of Australian laws. something 99.5% of dual nationals living in Australia accept and enjoy. getting wound up about the .5% of fuckwits who think it's a free pass seems awfully strange.

        • shanreagh

          Goodness where do you live? I live in Wellington's southern suburbs and a more multi cultural place I have yet to be in. In our street of 15 houses a few years ago, we had a minority of born in NZ citizens, even now there are French X 2, South African X 2 Samoan X2, Turkish X2. We have Italian restaurants, Vietnamese, Indian (south & North) Chinese in the nearby suburbs.

          Big cities are usually multi cultural. The real test is in small town NZ just as it is in small town Australia.

          It does not surprise me in the slightest that Scomo has been/is a bit slippery. They have a different psyche from NZers.

          • DukeEll

            I live in Auckland’s CBD. I use to live in wellington. If the street my Flat was on wasn’t filled with embassies you could have called it tip Top mighty white.

  15. ken 16

    Are there classes of citizenship?

    If you have dual citizenship, do you have primary and secondary citizenship?

  16. mosa 17

    Yeah were mates when it suits them then we are just a pawn in their domestic political battles when they need a common enemy to pick on and blame for everything that's wrong with Australia.
    That is the extent of how much they value this " special " relationship "
    The last National government encouraged and re enforced this bullying against our own people who left to better their lives with a chance of making it with decent pay and conditions and boy did the Ockers demand their pound of flesh in the form of federal and state taxes but no entitlements befitting an Australasian citizen an ANZAC brother with that special mateship they always wax lyrical about. Key did what he does best groveling to the Yanks or the treacherous Aussies. He was happy to use the many leaving kiwis escaping the oppressive neo liberal slavery he was all about protecting as a campaign issue in 2008 but soon forgot all that when Kiwis ended up prostituting their services with no safety net and stood by while Australia shit all over their so called brothers!!
    We stood up once against one of the most powerful countries on earth on the principles of our own independent foreign policy in 1985-87 and the sense of pride that stemmed from that has been like everything else sold and traded away. That is almost treason in my book.

  17. RedLogix 18

    And just in case anyone is still interested – it looks like Turkey is going to deport the woman to NZ.

    • Muttonbird 18.1

      Phew. You dodged a bullet there.

      • Muttonbird 18.1.1

        But then perhaps not.

        The story has changed over the course of the morning and now states it is unclear where she is being deported to.

        I doubt whether NZ would let her end up on Manus Island.

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