Convoy protest 2/3/22

Written By: - Date published: 6:05 am, March 2nd, 2022 - 338 comments
Categories: covid-19 - Tags: , , ,

Day 23

Edit:

Live coverage of major police action this morning.

Stuff

RNZ

The Spinoff

338 comments on “Convoy protest 2/3/22 ”

  1. Like most of rational NZ, I’m over these [deleted] in Wellington and elsewhere. But all we can do is mock them – they’re not open to facts.

    A twitter thread from the Canberra protest.

    The man has covid – but read the comments – talk about detached from reality!

    Good for a laugh though, and the realisation the Aussie anti-vaxxers are just as off kilter as our Kiwi f*ckwits.

    https://twitter.com/LizardHumanoid/status/1494231992325394434

  2. Joe90 2

    Looks like it's over.

  3. Robert Guyton 3

    Wondering…the harm done by the vaccination (spike protein = myocarditis etc) compared with the harm done by an even mild Omicron dose (spike protein = myocarditis etc).

    How do they compare? Seems to me, there will be far more spike proteins in your body as a result of contracting the virus, than there would be from getting the vaccination, yes/no?

    Given the expected ubiquitousness of Omicron, surely the fears held by the antivaxxers over the "untested" vaccine, pale into insignificance beside the reality of the virus itself?

    Can someone clarify/challenge/clear up my thinking around this?

    • Paul Campbell 3.1

      The main difference that without the viral payload (the DNA/RNA required for reproduction) a spike protein by itself doesn't take over a cell and result in its destruction

      • Incognito 3.1.1

        The coronavirus causing Covid-19 is an enveloped RNA virus and does not contain DNA, only RNA (and some other bits & pieces). It’s actually a fairly large chunk of RNA, for an RNA virus.

        • Paul Campbell 3.1.1.1

          Yeah I couldn't remember if it's an RNA or DNA virus which is why I said "DNA/RNA" – the point though is bthat without that b it to take over the workings of a cell a spike protein alone doesn't destroy a cell ( might block a receptor)

          • Incognito 3.1.1.1.1

            Yes, that’s correct. The mRNA of the vaccine, which is much shorter, only codes for the synthesis of the S-protein (spike protein) and this stops when the mRNA is broken down (degraded/destroyed) in/by the cell, which is fairly quickly. There’s more to it, but let’s make it as simple as possible, but no simpler. As such, it is not self-replicating and therefore cannot multiply and spread to other cells /andor other hosts. This is the crucial difference between the mRNA vaccine and the RNA virus.

            • Paul Campbell 3.1.1.1.1.1

              And remember for a virus to replicate it needs to take over the internal workings of a cell, make copies of itself and then destroy the cell to release them – this is by far the main cause of damage to your body from infection.

              Covid is a disease of the epithelial cells (that's what the spike protein helps it target) these are the cells at the edges of things in your body (blood vessels, major organs, lungs), it's not just a respiratory disease, it can affect your whole system, it's why long-covid can be so bad and why it has so many varied symptoms.

              Vaccination helps your body attack the virus quickly (no vaccination protects you from disease, they don't kick in until you are infected), but they do help your body deal with an infection quickly before it can get bad and spread everywhere

              At best we currently have is 3 doses, many vaccines we got as a kid require more (polio 4, tetanus every 4 years, influenza every year, Diphtheria/Pertussis 6 and 2 more at 45/65) we shouldn't be surprised if we need extra covid doses, especially if it's mutating at a rate equivalent to the flu for which we get a yearly dose

              • Incognito

                Vaccination can do a number of things, e.g. induction of neutralising antibodies, which can act very quickly upon infection as long as antibody titers are high (enough). In addition, vaccination can trigger a long-term immune memory in the form of B and T memory cells.

                The annual flu vaccine is because of different variants each flu season and waning (cross-) immunity.

                A number of countries have introduced and/or are considering a fourth booster shot with a Covid vaccine for high-risk people.

                Where do you get the 4-year interval for tetanus vaccination from?

    • Nic the NZer 3.2

      The issue with the virus is that it can grow into a full blown infection. The immediate dose is not so relevant here and the full infection dose will be much more than the vaccine (as suggested).

      This is almost certainly irrelevant to the form of anti-vax and anti-mRNA propaganda however. People who fall for this connect with it on an emotional and not intellectual level.

    • Matiri 3.3

      This article was posted here yesterday – debunks the antivaxxers fears point by point. I've bookmarked it! It should clarify your thinking Robert.

      https://thelogicofscience.com/2022/01/19/debunking-30-bad-arguments-about-covid-vaccines/

    • Peter 3.4

      One of the protesters live on Stuff a short while ago when asked what his message was said, "Don't believe stuff. (I assume he meant stuff not Stuff.)

      Science, the seeking of answers and accepting sources of knowledge have changed, been devalued.

      The truth is whatever you want it to be. The truth, the real answers are sure to be with the people holding those signs around many towns saying things like 'We are voices for freedom.' Oh, and in the Brian Tamaki acolytes.

  4. Adrian 4

    There is no active Covid infection in the vaccine, unlike previous vaccines for other diseases either dead or very weakened. The only thing that works in the vaccine as I understand it is the “ message “ attached to the mRNA to tell the bodies own immune system how to recognise the spikes to produce the T-cells and anti- bodies to fight the Covid contagion. This message for want of a better word is a part of the spike protein, the spikes don’t cause the disease they just open the “ door “ to the body’s own normal cells to let the toxic part of The Covid in. It’s a bit like a burglar breaking down your house door with a battering ram to let the burglar in where he can do his damaging actions. If he can’t get in he can’t pinch anything or beat the shit out of you.

  5. Andrew Miller 5

    Finally, it seems this nonsense is at an end.

    They can all go home having achieved absolutely nothing other than make miserable the people they’ve abused, assaulted and harassed.

  6. Peter 6

    I think most people have in the mind a group, called 'protestors.' Apparently we have to differentiate thinking instead of the mass as 'young children, those aged 60 plus and those who are women." Well the police should.

    "In a statement on Tuesday evening, protesters mentioned police had stopped service vehicles from emptying portaloos.

    "They made this decision in the full knowledge their actions would create a public health issue. Police know approximately 20 per cent of people on site are young children and those aged 60 plus and over 55 per cent of people at site being women."

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-omicron-outbreak-anti-mandate-protest-at-parliament-enters-23rd-day-police-gather-in-big-numbers/WG3MSZQYSXOPPIJWVJ5CO3MJQY/

    • Andrew Miller 6.1

      So they should be left in place indefinitely?

      The responsibility lies with people who appear to believe using children as human shields is legitimate.

    • weka 6.2

      "They made this decision in the full knowledge their actions would create a public health issue. Police know approximately 20 per cent of people on site are young children and those aged 60 plus and over 55 per cent of people at site being women."

      Protestors can choose to leave. People being exposed to covid by protestors ignoring the realities of the pandemic have less choice, sometimes significantly less choice.

  7. Sanctuary 7

    Saw on the Stuff live feed some people with clear mental health issues screaming at Stuff camera crew, rambling stuff like "Don't you dare touch our women or I'll f*** you up" from someone looking desperately unwell and similar random stuff. An unreasoned hatred of the media – when prompted for a reason the response was a further stream of invective. Incredibly sad.

    • DukeEll 7.1

      If i read all your comments in an uninterrupted stream I would draw the same conclusion

  8. roy cartland 8

    Is there a live feed up? RNZ and stuff don't seem to have one?

  9. Ad 9

    Helicopters, cranes, trucks and an entire Wellington Police force, versus plywood shields, fire extinguisher spray and 1 pitchfork.

    Wait a minute. It this what the state intelligence community meant by 'high likelihood of a terror attack'?

    • Shanreagh 9.1

      Don't be too snarky. The players like Alpe/Counterspin etc are perfectly capable of doing damage but we do not want that. Do we?

      • Ad 9.1.1

        TVNZ aren't doing a live feed so we aren't likely to ever see the truth of what is happening there until it comes out on Youtube. At which point there will be no editorial control.

        COVID needs a Royal Commission into the state's full handling of it, including this specific protest.

        • roy cartland 9.1.1.1

          A live feed of what? The front line of frightened, frenzied brainwashed? A live feed from the GCSB* would be more useful.

          *or whoever the domestic spy agency for terrorism is.

          • Robert Guyton 9.1.1.1.1

            Having watched a good deal of the footage of confrontations between the "angry" arm of the protest, and the police, filmed by protesters and posted on You tube etc. and hearing what's been said/shouted/screamed at the police for as long as the protest has been going, I'm wondering what it must be like in the police cells at the moment, where today's "harvest" of protesters is being held?

            Probably not little-pinky-extended, finest-china tea-party on the lawn conversations, I'm betting.

        • Red Blooded One 9.1.1.2

          1news.co.nz has a live stream.

        • Peter 9.1.1.3

          Editorial control? What do you mean? You want to see what actually happens but you want it 'controlled?'

          But you want the truth? The stuff on Youtube, won't be the truth? And of course in the meantime the voices of those who don't trust the msm (who they seem to look at every day) will be saying don't trust TVNZ with the loudest voices saying the Government has bought the media anyway.

          • Ad 9.1.1.3.1

            Only the government will fear unedited feeds.

            The truth is a long way out of this; some of it will come out in the court cases, some in generally broken lives that don't recover, some in reviews of Parliamentary security that will inevitably come out of it.

            The rest of it will reverberate for years around the fringes of our disposessed.

            • Robert Guyton 9.1.1.3.1.1

              Un-edited feeds?

              All cameras are directed by people. All people have a point of view.

              Perhaps a robotic camera, mindlessly sweeping the scene might be a bit more subjective…

              • Peter

                Indeed. Then someone selects a very brief snippet and puts that up as a fair depiction and representation of events. And that couple of seconds will be accepted as fairly describing what happened.

              • McFlock

                lol

                The autopan, like its relative the regular cycle through different camera feeds, always misses the good bits. The boss ends up saying "what was that?! back! back! get it back!" because they can't work the control panel themselves 😉

            • Patricia Bremner 9.1.1.3.1.2

              Unedited feeds are available through Stuff TVNZ and the journos and public. The swearing and throwing of chairs and missiles feeding the fire cheering at each explosion. None of that is reasonable or rational. This crowd bravery. Great rationalizations will happen later as is usual. This has happened in every democracy.

        • weka 9.1.1.4

          TVNZ aren't doing a live feed so we aren't likely to ever see the truth of what is happening there until it comes out on Youtube. At which point there will be no editorial control.

          Again, this is really out of the loop. I've updated the post with multiple links doing live coverage, some MSM, some twitter. FB will have some there too. There are a lot of people there with cameras.

      • Anne 9.1.2

        Actually, its not usually the overt ones who are the problem. Its the covert types who operate in the shadows and who are far more likely to commit acts of terrorism.

    • Tricledrown 9.2

      With unhygienic conditions in the protestors occupation.

      Ivermectin should be supplied to worm out the protestors .

    • weka 9.3

      Wait a minute. It this what the state intelligence community meant by 'high likelihood of a terror attack'?

      No, my guess is they will be concerned about someone, or someones, turning up with firearms or other weapons that can seriously harm or kill people. Maybe not at the parliament site.

      Do you know who Philip Arps is? Kelvyn Alp? The connections with the far right in the US? These have been talked about a lot in the past three weeks, I think you need to get up to speed on this, because your comment here comes across as naive.

  10. coge 10

    There is a high likelyhood we may witness a very large and visible violation of NZ human rights today. In that case, the Govt and the Police will require years to restore their reputations. The protest has spread around NZ now, so such a loss will be pointless futile. My conscience is clear in saying this.

    • roy cartland 10.1

      Which human rights and how (genuine question)?

    • satty 10.2

      There will be many people that see today as the first day the Police is actually starting to restore their reputation.

      Slashing the tyres of Police cars was the final straw, that made this action inevitable.

    • Dennis Frank 10.3

      I doubt it. Under the current commissioner the cops have displayed surprising restraint – apart from one incident where they gave a guy a black eye & he told the media he was going to take them to court.

      A poll designed to ascertain the proportion of public support for the protest measured it as a third a couple of weeks ago but I bet the next political poll will show the Govt retaining support regardless.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018831042/poll-suggests-30pct-support-parliament-protest

      • Sanctuary 10.3.1

        The police restraint is incredible, I guess the days of batons are over which is probably for the best. I can see tasers and batons soon though.

        • roy cartland 10.3.1.1

          There are a few videos on the stuff live blog that show some batons waving around.

          • joe90 10.3.1.1.1

            Live feed I watched had police advancing slowly behind shields and it looked like anyone who reached around or over the shields wore a baton and anyone who laid a hand on one of the plods was targeted to be grabbed and taken away.

            • Robert Guyton 10.3.1.1.1.1

              "anyone who reached around or over the shields wore a baton and anyone who laid a hand on one of the plods was targeted to be grabbed and taken away."

              Did you feel that was a reasonable strategy, Joe90?

              • Obtrectator

                Tactics rather than strategy – but still bloody inept.

              • joe90

                Did you feel that was a reasonable strategy, Joe90?

                Not particularly, Robert, remember Gideon Tait, but that's the way they roll and they've always gotten away with it.

                • Robert Guyton

                  Why should anyone, other than with ill-intent, reach over or around the shields, or lay a hand upon the police?

                  • joe90

                    More thinking of the police proclivity to wade in and really go to town on someone if they play up.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      "Play up"?

                      Hmmmm..

                      It's possible, but not what I've been seeing.

                      Have you seen much in the way of unreasonable force?

                      I've seen huge amounts of provocation 🙂

    • Peter 10.4

      Is there a high likelihood we may witness a substantial number of claims of a violation of NZ human rights today?

      If I'm trespassing somewhere and I get 'moved on' or taken away have my human rights been violated?

      • Shanreagh 10.4.1

        Yes I wondered what human rights were being violated. The human right to peacefully pass and repass along streets/roads built for the purpose is the right that has been most violated during the protest.

        Is there a human right to seek education because that has been violated both for high school students and university students.

        If the Police use force that is not proportionate to the incidents that they are responding to.

        I am sure there will be any number of debriefs and thoughts that we could have done better and improvements for the future.

        I am sure the Machiavellian planners from the organisations will mostly be long gone.

        • Obtrectator 10.4.1.1

          Yes … Bishop Brian still there?

          • ghostwhowalksnz 10.4.1.1.1

            The good 'Apostle Tamaki ' – hes been promoted- is still on bail in Auckland and cant attend any protests anywhere

      • Andrew Miller 10.4.2

        On its own no, but it could be done in a manner which did.

        Having said, there’s nothing to suggest the Police has done anything that can’t be justified as a proportionate use of force in the circumstances.

      • Robert Guyton 10.4.3

        There will be a lot of vocal claims to that end, but they'll be in vain – I believe the police declared the area, "something something" which means, get out of the way, all has changed. I'm sure the call has been well researched. So, no violations of NZ human rights, I would expect.

    • Paul Campbell 10.5

      Are you saying that getting arrested for breaking the law is a violation of human rights? well let's empty out all the jails then

      Like many people here I've been arrested for protesting real things (not imaginary conspiracy covidiot stuff) in the past, it's part of the mahi

    • Craig H 10.6

      Their right to protest at Parliament has infringed on others' right to protest – striking workers in Wellington would normally march to Parliament, have a rally, and then leave, but the Allied health workers don't have that option unless the current protestors move on.

    • georgecom 10.7

      23 odd days of being permitted to camp outside parliament and make a point, I would say that's a reasonably generous length of time. cordons were put in place to stop the spread of the occupation which I think was fair enough, the freedoms and rights of Wellingtonians to go about their business without undue disruption and harassment is a freedom and right that needed to be maintained alongside the freedom of the occupiers to stage a protest.

  11. Muttonbird 11

    [deleted]

  12. Hopefully archivists from Nat Library and Alexander Turnbull library and Te Papa will be able to get a selection of the posters/placards for their collections – especially the ones with the appalling spelling and the conspiracy theories and the usual normal ones. People will want to research this in the future.

    • swordfish 12.1

      .

      especially the ones with the appalling spelling

      How ab-solutely Ghastly for you !

      Rumours suggest very few are from Kelburn or Wadestown … hardly any host frequent dinner parties for senior public servants … few if any shop all over the world to curate beautiful spaces for their homes … & virtually none serve Avocado & Kale vol-au-vents to their horrendously-underpaid au pairs !

      surprisesurprisesurprisesurprisesurprise

      • Shanreagh 12.1.1

        Oh dear none of that applies to me. Was it supposed to be a cutting reply to my post.

        I am one of those people that can see research possibilities in this. Partly to work out how why it happened and also to see if there are links. And hopefully to feed in to make our society better. I can see that education, or lack of it as illustrated by the signs, may be a factor in being able to discern the ability to 'bat away' mis & dis information. The signs will give researchers a link to the worldwide pervasiveness of this dis/mis- information. Many of the signs seem to be universal.

        As to my local haunts Newtown market and other low cost places are my scene

  13. Robert Guyton 13

    David Farrier connects some interesting dots…

    Hare, Hare Krishna!

    https://www.webworm.co/p/prani

    • Tiger Mountain 13.1

      It was quite upsetting for me to discover that a local Hare Krishna guy that I have been buying Samosa and bread from for years via “Food for Life” who also provide several thousands meals to local schools each week in Northland; has been at the Wellington occupation.

      Believe what you want, but I still look at the company people keep as a factor in whether they are worth associating with.

  14. Reality 14

    Getting frustrated with protesters demanding freedom and rights. When they behave criminally, trespassing and causing huge damage to Parliament grounds and buildings (which will need possibly millions spent to clean up), disrupt the free movement in surrounding streets and harass children going to school, as well as people working and living in the area, cause businesses to close, then they have no claim to any rights for themselves ahead of other law-abiding decent citizens.

  15. Just Saying 15

    (which will need possibly millions spent to clean up),..

    I volunteer to do the job for just one mill. That's got to be a bargain.

  16. weka 16

    Smart timing from the government, Hipkins announcing today that mandates will be reviewed in weeks or a few months depending on omicron peak. He's not speaking to the hardcore protestors, he's speaking to the people that might be radicalised after today's police action as well as the general public. Settling everything down.

    The Government has received advice on when COVID-19 vaccine mandates could end but it will largely depend on when New Zealand's Omicron outbreak starts to wane, Chris Hipkins says.

    On Friday, the High Court quashed an "unlawful" COVID vaccine mandate for police and Defence Force staff – with the judge saying it was an unjustified limit of rights.

    "If you look at the court case from last week – the advice that we've had back from the police already is that, actually, the mandate has served its purpose and they don't think they're going to need another one," said Hipkins, the COVID-19 Response Minister.

    "Defence, on the other hand, has indicated that they do think they'll need to do something because when they deploy internationally, and particularly to the Pacific, they often require people to be vaccinated before they can be deployed so it's more complicated for them," Hipkins told AM.

    He said the Government was keeping all other mandates and COVID restrictions that remain in place under "regular review".

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/03/covid-decision-to-end-vaccine-mandates-could-be-within-weeks-to-a-couple-of-months-chris-hipkins.html

    • Craig H 16.1

      Almost like there's a pandemic which doesn't conform to a nice neat timetable… Still, useful to acknowledge that things are under active consideration.

  17. Good grief, protestors have just left police to take their cars/vans etc. Coster has warned that cars etc towed have been 'seized' and may or may not be returned.

    See pic at 12.11pm

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/03/covid-19-latest-on-parliament-protest-covid-19-community-outbreak-wednesday-march-2.html

  18. observer 18

    The occupation in Wellington may not be over, probably won't be for some days yet.

    But the PR image is over. Russell Coutts and Winston Peters and other entitled celebs won't be visiting the new version of the camp. They won't be standing alongside people with weapons. Their support will quietly fade away.

    Let's hope it ends peacefully but it's hard to be confident of that. A hard core are there for a scrap, not to negotiate law changes on mandates or anything close.

  19. Robert Guyton 19

    "Meanwhile, former journalist turned prominent anti-vaccination protester, Liz Gunn, told the crowd: “we will turn the old parliament building into a sort of Holocaust museum”."

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/live-updates/02-03-2022/latest-60-people-now-arrested-near-parliament-police-continue-towing-vehicles

  20. observer 20

    From Coster's statement:

    "During a period of engagement with protest leaders we were able to get in place tactics that de-escalated both the number of people and vehicles at the site.

    However, we reached the stage where protest leaders were either unwilling, or unable, to affect meaningful change to the behaviour and the impact of the protest on Wellington. In the last week we have a changing mix in the make-up of the crowd at the protest – in particular we became concerned that those with good intentions were outnumbered by those with a willingness to use violence to effect their means."

    (italics added)

    Nobody can ever say they didn't try to "engage".

    • Robert Guyton 20.1

      Well observed, observer. That's how I felt the situation was unfolding, despite the yelping of the detractors. Watching some of the official and unofficial coverage of "flash points" – the face to face confrontations between protesters and police, it seemed to me that anger, resulting from deeper societal issues, rather than anything to do with "mandates" or "Covid", was driving the actions of the "frontline" protesters. It was getting ugly and angry, imo.

  21. Reality 21

    Russell Coutts and Winston Peters nowhere to be seen today. Funny that. There for an earlier brief visit for some publicity then out of the place quick smart. Not for them having to share the portaloos and communal shower, or to stand in line with the unwashed rabble for free food and coffee.

    Was told today of a schoolgirl on the train wearing a mask and the person behind her got scissors out and cut off the straps. How low to intimidate and assault a young girl.

    • Tiger Mountain 21.1

      It is getting weird and unpleasant at times–my partner went to Whangārei farmers market on Sat and she reported that people were taking their masks off after passing security, barely a third keeping them on. Most stall holders were not wearing either to set an example, tick to Mahoe Cheese who were!

      She said some non wearers pushed up against her unnecessarily in a non crowded scene and she felt she was being targeted for mask use. We phoned the market organiser that morning who did not give a toss.

  22. observer 22

    Looks like there's a major police push now (see the various live feeds).

  23. ianmac 23

    Police starting to clear the Parl Grounds now. Protesters a bit unhappy. Many getting out with their backpacks and sleeping bags. TV1 filming live is good.

    https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/03/01/live-stream-large-police-contingent-closes-in-on-parliament-protest/

  24. Red Blooded One 24

    Well done NZ Police. They have shown great restraint.

  25. Peter 25

    Brian Tamaki will be sitting at home loving it.

    Meanwhile on TV1, “All New Tipping Point.”

  26. observer 26

    If they wanted to push any wavering supporters into giving up on them, it would be starting a fire and literally adding fuel to the flames. Crazy.

    • observer 26.1

      Some online suggesting the protesters did not start the fire. Fair enough, we don't know yet.

      What we know 100% – and could witness in real tine – is that after it started, many could be seen throwing objects (wood etc) onto the fire, stoking it and cheering as it got bigger.

      Can't spin that.

  27. Grey Area 27

    I hope they are taking a second to smile for the Police cameraman filming them up close.

  28. Drowsy M. Kram 28

    No word from The Chairman since his prolific comments on the Convoy protest 28/2/22 post – did he get away in time?

  29. Grey Area 29

    Does qualify as a Pyrrhic victory? Gotta be some symbolism in them burning their own camp down.

  30. Robert Guyton 30

    "Burn the playground, burn the playground!!"

  31. Cricklewood 31

    This was always going to end badly the moment two classes of people were created. This certainly isnt the end and we've now got a load of disenfranchised very angry people in communities all over NZ. Some of them freshly radicalized

    Sad day all round for NZ.

    • weka 31.1

      I don't think it's the end either, but something had to change, and now the dynamics have shifted there's a chance of mending what is broken. I don't hold a lot of hope because mostly the left can't be arsed and just wants some kind of comfy BAU.

      • Cricklewood 31.1.1

        There's talk of heading to Jacindas house in Auckland for example…

        AAAP held small demos outside John Keys place I suspect if it happens it will be very problematic.

        The protesters have learnt lessons and it doesnt take many people in vehicles to make a real mess in Auckland and other major centers, would only need 30 or 40 cars to blockade the port for example…

        • observer 31.1.1.1

          Their appetite for the violent behaviour seen today has nothing whatsoever to do with policy decisions on vaccine mandates, and you know it.

        • weka 31.1.1.2

          hard to sustain a protest when so many people hate you though.

        • higherstandard 31.1.1.3

          There's talk of heading to Jacinda's house in Auckland for example…

          If true this is completely unacceptable and the police should remove them immediately if they turn up.

          • weka 31.1.1.3.1

            yep, and it's pretty easy to see the difference between AAAP and the convoy protests.

        • Patricia 2 31.1.1.4

          AAAP should get back to their excellent work advocating for vulnerable beneficiaries / low income families and leave the political protests to experts.

      • Cricklewood 31.1.2

        I also hope that when Covid has passed we can have a full and very public Royal Commission on the whole Covid response.

        It will help next time around and looking at the polarization occurring I cant help but feel the pandemic aspect of governance should have been done by cross party committee. Which is sort of where we started off.

        • observer 31.1.2.1

          Got no problem with a commission, inquiry, etc. There are always lessons to be learned.

          But please let's not fool ourselves that people who live in the world of Telegram and Counterspin would then say "Well, that was a thorough report by an independent inquiry and we should accept their findings".

          If the government/Parliament is an evil dictatorship, then nothing that it does can possibly suffice.

    • Robert Guyton 31.2

      "Two classes of people" weren't created in "a moment" – we've had that (2 or more) since forever.

      • Cricklewood 31.2.1

        Essentially using the turn of phrase the PM agreed to in the interview.

    • Peter 31.3

      "This was always going to end when two classes of people were created."

      What specifically created two classes of people? Haven't there been two classes of people all along? Accepting that the groups were fairly nebulous around the edges.

      You know, rich people, poor people, educated people, uneducated people, working people, not working people, criminal people, not criminal people, arseholes, not arseholes, clever people, not clever people, contented people, discontented people, sick people, well people, quiet reserved people, noisy people, sporty people, not sporty people, arty people not arty people, nautical people, not nautical people. And whatever else.

      Do we now have those who feel part of things and those who feel disenfranchised? As a new thing?

      I've seen enough generalisations about the Wellington mob, the glib categorisations of who and what and the why of them. As if the postage stamp were gospel. And if the postage stamp were big enough to contain details like 'shit stirring mongrel using the opportunity to cause trouble' or "anarchist.' So we've got two classes of people. What class are they in?

      • observer 31.3.1

        Yes, it's nonsense.

        The housing crisis created "two classes of people", probably for generations. It's a huge social and economic division.

        But I don't want death threats to property investors. Or even to politicians who created and continue the housing crisis. Or to be an apologist for anyone who thinks that would be OK. Or all the other behaviour we’ve seen.

        The vaccine mandates will lapse in a matter of months, and are subject to legal challenge anyway. To claim that is the one Big Issue which justifies all and any response … no.

        • Robert Guyton 31.3.1.1

          Cricklewood's been pushing the "two peoples, created by Jacinda" nonsense for some time now.

          I'm pleased to see the claim isn't supported here.

          • weka 31.3.1.1.1

            Ardern literally talked about two NZs. This fed into some potent social dynamics that were amplified by social media manipulators, and here we are today.

            But we cannot deny that the PM of NZ said this in the middle of national crisis, and did so unapologetically, and that it was a direct result of her government's management of the pandemic.

            I think Labour were right with the mandates, but that doesn't mean that people weren't treated badly.

          • Cricklewood 31.3.1.1.2

            It's kind of an example of where we've ended up as a result of this easy to dehumanize online…. we've met Robert, talked plants for a few hours in many ways kindred spirits

            But I sorta feel the currently govt is the ying, to your yang… if the yang was Pete George…

        • weka 31.3.1.2

          the issues I see are threefold

          • the alt right/far right intent on majorly disrupting society.
          • the sovereign citizen crowd, previously ticking away doing their own thing, now radicalised
          • the underclasses, some of who don't have much left to lose.
          • the rise of revenge and authoritarian values among the left and the demise of egalitarian values

          that's a potent mix, and we disregard it at our peril.

          • Anker 31.3.1.2.1

            100% Weka. I think your analysis is correct.

            John Minton also has a piece on the Daily Blog where he quotes Jacinda saying in 2020 there won't be vaccine mandates. She has u turned.

            • Robert Guyton 31.3.1.2.1.1

              I heard Jacinda's words, and her there-won't-be-compulsion, differently to weka and Anker. For me, it was about context, nuanced meaning and audience subtlety. I've seen how people leapt upon the two expressions, and thought about those influences, a lot. It's not the first time such interpretations have lead to anguish (and misinterpretation. It could be said that it's up to the speaker to be crystal clear, but that's not always possible, I know from experience).

              I could be wrong about this, but those are my views.

              • weka

                From my own memory, what she said earlier re vax not being forced was indeed context dependent. We didn't have delta then, that changed everything. She probably shouldn't have said it though, because there was always the chance that we would have a pandemic that would require mandates of some kind. There was also confusion about the difference between forced vaccinations and coerced ones.

                But later when she did have to bring the mandates in, there was a choice to ostracise people or set the mandates and look after people.

                I see her much more one NZ in her stand up just now. Very obvious difference. By one NZ I don't mean everyone agrees, I mean that the PM is visibly making an attempt to not ostracise.

                The two NZ’s ostracisation seemed clear to me because it was obvious that it would help drive up vax rates at just the point in time when we needed that. And I think that worked. We are paying a price for that now. Maybe there is no good answer to that even in hindsight.

              • Shanreagh

                Replying to Robert Guyton. Mine too. I have seen the interview that people have taken as saying two people and it has been taken out of context and more nuanced. I took it as meaning that by their choices people have taken themselves into a group that is different from mainstream and so they have.

                • weka

                  I took it as meaning that by their choices people have taken themselves into a group that is different from mainstream and so they have.

                  Well yes, this is what people mean by creating 2 NZs. You, and Ardern, and others are so sure of your righteousness that it's easy to dismiss the needs of people you believe have either behaved badly or not taken responsibility for their own actions. This is very close to rw values and positioning. As a beneficiary the tone is remarkable similar sounding.

                  And, it only works for people that believe vaccines are god, or Good. I don't, despite agreeing that this one was necessary (and that many others have been too), but I also understand that harm would be done in various ways and that we needed to call those people in. To continue dismissing them is arrogant and patronising, and the people already pissed off are going to see that.

                  It's similar to the lines being run on TS and elsewhere last year, that the vaccine was harmless (sometimes with a caveat of a very few people who have rare adverse reactions). This dismissive done feeds the anti-vax movement, whereas we could be saying, yes, some people will be harmed, here's how we are going to look after them. Again, as someone with a disability caused by chronic illness (and with a background in patients rights), this is not a new dynamic, the patronising tone is similar to how doctors used to be.

                  Thing is, your righteousness won't make those people go away, and won't change their minds. Which leaves ostracisation and force. Consider then how to get them on board with climate action. We don't have time for this.

                  • Shanreagh

                    I resent the tags you are placing on me …….surely we are able to say our views rather than being tagged with the latest epithet du jour.

                    • weka

                      I don't know what you mean by tags.

                      If you present an argument over time that basically ignores other people's realities and does so in a way that marginalises them, then I will say something about that. Maybe address the substantive point and we can focus on that.

                    • weka

                      Substantive point being this. You said,

                      I took it as meaning that by their choices people have taken themselves into a group that is different from mainstream and so they have.

                      Yes, but Ardern didn't just do that, and the response to those people from many isn't just neutral in the way your comment implies (there's absolutely nothing wrong with being in a group that is different from the mainstream, and such diversity is necessary for healthy society).

                      They've been ostracised and ridiculed, and Ardern was part of that ostracisation.

                      I've not seen anyone from that position say 'hey it's a free and/or valid choice even if I disagree with it, and they still need to be treated like human beings and we have to make sure they are ok'.

                    • Shanreagh

                      'Righteous', 'arrogant', 'patronising' 'close to rw values' are words I would prefer not to see used to someone who has a different view from you.

                      I write plainly. I try not to use excess adjectives after being advised that excessive use of adjectives belongs in fiction. This sometimes means my writing comes across as spade=spade. I am not about to change my writing style so I can call someone else's writing 'righteous' or 'arrogant'.

                      People take themselves out of mainstream views all the time……they do not usually however use force, occupation or damage to try and bend the majority to their view. People take themselves out of the mainstream as well. I have been out of the mainstream, if excessive consumerism & non sustainability is mainstream, for decades.

                      If it comes to supporting those who want to have a view different to mainstream and then wanting to allow that view to manifest itself in a race to use force against our democratic institutions then I am afraid my view comes down in the support of, and the maintenance of our democratic traditions.

                      My framing was about choice. Choices have consequences. This is decision making 101.

                      I did not frame it that they had made a bad choice, just that they had made a choice. I expect everyone will be thinking of the consequences of their own choices and this would have played a large part in whether they made those choices. It goes without saying that they were aware of these choices. Also that they had an ability to seek out the best scientific advice about that choice.

                      I give nothing to people who want to believe conspiracy theories and then blame others because they themselves have made a decisions based on fairy tales and not science. I feel sorry for them. Sorry does not cut it or provide a way forward for fellow human beings though.

                      On a macro level I feel that something has gone wrong in our society that our people are taken in by anti vaxx charlatans, especially those who promulgate conspiracy theories. I feel a personal pang to the heart/blame that our society may not be fitting many to live in the world where every loan shark or charlatan is after their money or their mind. I feel sad at not being able to influence our education system to teach critical thinking, civics and how not to mess with people whose avowed intention to get after 'your money'.

                      From the little I know of the exemption process I get the feeling that:

                      • some had made an exemption that was not borne out by scientific or medical fact once their Dr had been contacted
                      • some Drs may not have been fully aware of the possible effects of vaccines on people with auto immune diseases and therefore should possibly have supported either an exemption or waiting for another vaccine.

                      So a review of the exemption system may be a good thing. In decision making there are Bell Curve ? (don't know what the correct name is) parameters at work and decision makers need to be aware of this to test if their decision making is too harsh or lax.

                      While it is all very well to address others realities ie that they have made a decision that is not popular with others, it works both ways. There has been a real lack of recognition about democracy, majorities, rule of law.

                      I saw lots of people in the early stages having what I would call fun. With music and dancing, chatter etc. We have ALL been without that in our public spaces. Probably100% of the festivals I used to go here in Wellington have been cancelled over the last two years, not to mention all the paid for events. I can't help hoping that this premature fun won't mean that the law abiding majority will have to wait longer than we may have needed to to join in the fun.

                      For myself I have signed up with the group that is cleaning the sites when the go ahead is given, as a partnership we are determined to frequent those small businesses that have done it hard over the last 3 weeks. They had no part in this and do not deserve what happened to them.

                      Having had a former partner with addiction issues I know how hard it is to disturb/distract/withdraw from thoughts/actions that are ultimately self harming. Withdrawing from cults, and some of these groups supporting the anti vaxxers bear a resemblance to cults, will not be easy for many. They have filled a void in peoples' lives. Some will need long term, gentle and specialist care.

          • Julian Richards 31.3.1.2.2

            "… that's a potent mix, and we disregard it at our peril"

            🙏 A child that is not embraced by the village, will burn it down to feel its warmth ~ African proverb.

  32. Grey Area 32

    So the hard core of the peace and love protesters who just wanted to cause mayhem will be loose in the Capital tonight. Long day for the men and women in blue.

  33. Anker 33

    This is really worrying. If you think the protesters are going home to watch Coronation Street and write a polite Air bnb review for their time on Parliament lawn think again.

    Wellingtons bureaucrats may think they have won the battle to have their genteel existence back to normal (unlike the poor state house tennants who have to put up with anti social tennants for years), but I think this has just ratcheted things up a millon notches.

    I make not comment on the rights or wrongs of this. But just remember with the Spring Box tour, the more the police upped the anty, the further the protesters would go.

    • Cricklewood 33.1

      Going by some of the chat on Telegram and Facebook you are most likely right.

      I'd be very careful walking around Welly afterdark tonight.

    • Andrew Miller 33.2

      I think it’s frankly insulting to either compare this to the Springbok protests which was a huge movement drawn from people right across NZ society which united not merely what they believed but how the acted, or that these people are simply poor and vulnerable.
      It’s a tiny fringe movement a significant portion of which hold appalling and repugnant views that NZers overwhelming reject. It’s clear many of them come from quite privileged backgrounds, they’ve just chosen
      I think the only people in for a shock are the mob who’ll soon discover the country is over being held to ransom.

      • Anker 33.2.1

        Andrew Miller I wasn't saying these people are just like the Springbox protesters…….

        I was comparing what happened when the police upped the anti during the Spring box tour. Its called esculation. Protesters didn't say oh well thats a bit awlful I will stay at home then. I was one of the SB tour protesters……..

        But feel free to interprete it as insulting.

        • weka 33.2.1.1

          The actions from the anti-Tour movement would have happened regardless, the intent was to stop the tour. Police action upped the ante in regards to tactics but not the overall movement (other than helping to shift the overton window to anti-tour).

          (I was there too).

        • Patricia Bremner 33.2.1.2

          I was in Napier for the Tour demonstration and the police climbed over protestors and wacked them with long batons with intent, actually targeting some.

          I did not see that today. The police and Fire Service were really quite restrained, after days of quiet negotiating with some groups it became evident some were there for a fight.

          Reasoning with people who are overwrought wound up and full of strange ideas gleaned from some internet web is almost impossible. Hence pepper spray the water and the sponge bullets.

          To ask Jacinda Ardern to reason with such is a strange stance to take.

          Plus to take a couple of pieces of prose from interviews and nuance them to fit meanings which suit a view is specious.

          To be single minded in a pandemic is the PM's over riding task. Those who do not believe covid is a problem are the problem.

          • Shanreagh 33.2.1.2.1

            Very thoughtful words Patricia that I agree with.

            Plus to take a couple of pieces of prose from interviews and nuance them to fit meanings which suit a view is specious.

            This is my take on the so-called two NZers interview.

      • Shanreagh 33.2.2

        Agree totally with this Andrew Miller……this is nothing like the Springbok tour protests…..there is a sense that views about the the Tour were more evenly divided across NZ than this group.

        Some will need help, other will need a spell before the courts/gaol.

    • weka 33.3

      lots of differences between this and the Tour.

      During the Tour, police actively engaged in police brutality, in Wgtn the police have been incredibly restrained.

      In '81 country was split, sometimes bitterly, but many people were against the tour, and the protests were big and they shifted the overton window. Atm, the protest seems bigger than it is because of the traffic blockades. It's not nothing, but the amount of antipathy towards the protestors will grow after today – kids still at the protest, they set a tree on fire, even slashing police tyres, on top of the disruption to locals and the public health risk.

      The anti-Tour movement had a coherent and clear message and competent leadership, the convoy has neither.

      The problem that NZ has from this protest existed before covid, and I agree that it's not going to go away. But I think most people will end up agreeing that today was justified by police. How we attend to the actual problem now is a different matter, and I don't see Labour or those comfortable in their lives as being a good resource on that generally.

      • Anker 33.3.1

        Weka as If pointed out to Andrew Miller I wasn't saying this is the same type of protest as the SB tour. I was saying the police upping the anti could lead to the protesters responsding in kind. This was my experience of the tour. Our lounge was a gathering point for protesters to rally to go to the protests and as each week progressed, protestors got more and more amoured up, make shift sheilds and helments………………there was quite a bit of anti social stuff happening with the tour, it wasn't all peaceful marching. Remember the guy who dropped leaflets on to Eden Park?

        • weka 33.3.1.1

          ah, I see what you mean. Yes, I agree this is a possibility here, more militancy and/or individuals getting violent. But imo that was always going to happen unless the police did nothing.

          I'm going to assume the threat of terrorism still exists as well. But I'm also going to hazard a guess that this was part of the impetus to act now. It was only going to get worse, both on the ground and the background thread.

          The problem the protestors have is that they are inexperienced, badly organised, and chaotic in terms of cohesion or purpose. They're like teenagers, full of the energy but haven't learned the responsibility yet. Hence the mob today where the ones who would fight and discredit the movement, and to an extent that's on all the people who attended. It was clear right from that start that despite there being a lot of pro-peaceful people there, the violent and anti-social lot were doing their own thing.

          • Just Saying 33.3.1.1.1

            Weka,

            I think its worth mentioning that another epidemic a few years ago united the Gay community (anyone who didn't catch 'It's a Sin' missed something really worthwhile).

            As I recall, amidst horrendous hostility, they achieved something. Some little token. Oh I remember now – they changed the world.

      • Peter 33.3.2

        Some might even say the violence this time round has been perpetrated by the Freedom and Choice group, Sue Grey, Chantelle Baker, Karen Brewer and the like.

    • observer 33.4

      Over the past 2 years there have been many protests in democracies around the world. They began in 2020 with anti-lockdown marches, even riots. In NZ we were some 18 months later, for many reasons, reflecting well on our public cohesion.

      A protest has been handled in Wellington with 3 weeks of patience (in Washington it would be 3 hours). Today it has been brought to a close without the scenes that should be familiar to anyone who pays attention to world news. No tear gas and baton charges, even under the provocation of arson.

    • Robert Guyton 33.5

      What have "Wellington bureaucrats" got to do with this?"

      You think the people who didn't support the occupation lead a "genteel existence" and that was the reason for their not joining the ranks of the playground-burners?

      And what was in the Spring Box??

      • Anker 33.5.1

        i live in Wellington Robert. It is a very genteel existence for those who live and work around Parliament. I have listened to incredible vitriol from a lot of people I know who work for the Govt about the protesters. They talk as if they are the scum of the earth (or river of filth if you prefer).

        I have always acknowledged that there are right alt influencers and a real anti social bunch there who have nothing to lose.

        A personal story. I was working in a park near parliament this morning. A young woman walking a dog told me there were some anti mandate people around the corner. She added, but they are friendly and they wanted to pat my dog. I past them and they called out good morning. I replied good morning back. A Maori woman and a bloke.

        • Robert Guyton 33.5.1.1

          No doubt, Anker, but the antipathy towards the occupiers/playground-burners exists far beyond the boundaries of Wellington. Your genteel folk might celebrate to fall of the Covid Camp, but they won't be alone in doing so.

          • Anker 33.5.1.1.1

            Robert, I find myself in the position where I think I am probably wrong.

            I am finding the scenes on tv really shocking and scary and don't know how this will end in Wellington…….

            I am one of the most compliant, rule abiding people in the world…….

            I support the vaccine and I support the Govts covid response……….

            But the reporter is saying on the tele right now……..What is going to happen tonight in Wellington?

            • Robert Guyton 33.5.1.1.1.1

              Could this situation (the violence we are seeing now) have arisen from within the ranks of the yoga, wellness, I'm a nurse, I lost my teaching job, sections of society?

              Or has this movement been hijacked/initiated by other "agents" with very different objectives?

              What's sad to me, is the way individuals from the formers groups, have been accepting and excusing the anti-society behaviour of the latter. I say this from my personal experience, as you are.

            • weka 33.5.1.1.1.2

              Ardern was really clear that there will be a big police presence in Wellington tonight. But I think staying home is a really good idea that this point, esp after dark.

              Hopefully those not arrrested will settle down and go somewhere to lick their wounds and sort themselves out.

      • left for dead 33.5.2

        Robert…it's Bok,ok.

    • PsyclingLeft.Always 34.1

      Hi. I dont get how they are NOT fuckwits…and then they are fuckwits.

      Is kinda confusing. To me they were fuckwits quite a while back…with the execution lists,swastikas,nooses,shit throwing,conspiracy spreading etc etc……

      • weka 34.1.1

        who is 'they'? To me they look like a wide range of people. I don't believe they are all fuckwits. The people setting fire to those trees are though.

        • PsyclingLeft.Always 34.1.1.1

          Well I did just describe who I thought…and "they" were well mixed in…and seemingly accepted. So "they" covers , in MY opinion a lot of.

          • weka 34.1.1.1.1

            I know people from my community who were there a few weeks ago. They're not fuckwits.

            If you think the protest is only "with the execution lists,swastikas,nooses,shit throwing,conspiracy spreading" then I think you are wrong.

            • PsyclingLeft.Always 34.1.1.1.1.1

              I know people from my community who were there a few weeks ago. They're not fuckwits.

              Of course. Did they have an opinion ON the fuckwits? And please dont turn this into a “Youre not Left” I dont nor will explain MY Left cred/////

              • Shanreagh

                Yes that response has been in evidence as a way of dismissing views from LW people who seemingly dare to depart from some rulebook of what a left wing person should act like or be like.

                Perhaps 'going forward' on this site we can depart from this denigration.

                Personally in my MB haunts I have gone from being taunted as a leftie over everything even things that did not have a left wing component to now being told my views are not those of a leftie.

                It hard to keep up and does nothing to foster the expression of views. education as way forward and sometimes comes close to ad hominem.

                • PsyclingLeft.Always

                  Morena Shanreagh. Fellow Leftie. indeed I think…I know you from some of those…at times, lonely "other" MB battles : ). But I also do remember some of the Nurses,Doctors and others who tried to warn of the dangers of the anti vaxxer , from a Rational and even PERSONAL perspective.

                  Anyway, my reading of you, then and all through, shows a very Intelligent, perspicacious person.

                  Power to you Leftie : )

  34. Adrian 35

    Send the clean-up bill to Coutts and Kirkpatrick and Kerrison and if they don’t pay throw them in MtEden for being arses.

    • observer 35.1

      They all have nice houses.

      As supporters of "freedom" they should invite Ukrainian refugees to live there. Or more immediately, homeless people from that excluded, marginalised community they care so much about. They'd love a few nights in one of Russell's spare bedrooms.

  35. Adrian 36

    I’ll bet 80% of who’s left are already well known to the Police as recidivist troublemakers from wherever they came. A few very long prison sentences are on the way .

  36. Peter 37

    I don't want to have a vaccination – it might kill me. I value my freedom it's being taken off me. To show my disgust about all of that I'll pull a brick out of the road, hurl it at cops and it might kill one of them giving them freedom for eternity.

    There you go, now where's the yoga tent gone?

    [sigh, another one who didn’t read the memo today.

    There’s more than enough violence happening that we don’t need to heap any more on the growing pile of shit unless we wish to make this the new norm of our society and conversations.

    • Directly or indirectly advocating violence in any shape or form (including ‘jest’ and advocating self-harm) to individuals or groups is simply not allowed. Moderators will have a no-tolerance humourless response as the only possible response. If you want to talk about political conflicts around the world, then do so being mindful of this proscription.

    https://thestandard.org.nz/policy/

    Happy commenting, without calls for or jokes about violence – Incognito]

  37. Adrian 38

    These aren’t “ two classes of people “ there were $50k to $ 150k motorhomes there, millionaire serial attention seekers, middle class yoga instructors ( never the most intellectually grounded at the best of times ), and the dope and P damaged some most probably from “ good “ homes. It was just a collection of fuckwits, some poor, some well of but all of them off their rocker.

    • Barfly 38.1

      all of them off their rocker.

      yes

    • Incognito 38.2

      There are Kiwis who live more or less permanently in motorhomes as if it is their real home (it is for them). I know some and they’re not well off, financially.

      • Cricklewood 38.2.1

        Yep alot of the motorhomes there were the occupants only homes… comments like Adrian's are completely fucking ignorant, alot people who did a long haul at parliment did so because they made the decision to lose everything rather than vaccinate.

        • Tricledrown 38.2.1.1

          Lead by online conspiracy theorists.

          All for 15mins of infamy.

          I would give them all a holiday volunteering in a poor Covid ravaged country .

        • Nic the NZer 38.2.1.2

          Makes you a bit of an a hole, I would say.

          You knew peoples (only, motor) homes were going to be sacrificed in the aid of conspiracy theorists, and you didn't try to convince anybody to just leave taking it home. Instead you just wanted a bit of a gaup at the carnival.

        • Patricia Bremner 38.2.1.3

          Lose everything rather than vaccinate.

          That is not what will happen, if they fall ill with covid they will have "free" hospital care, and if critical, 5 highly trained nurses to look after them, all paid for by the State they currently say is ruining their lives.

  38. Adrian 39

    There’s a real irony in the whole thing being bought to an end by water, Trev was a man ahead of his time.

  39. coge 40

    Segregation, no matter how it's dressed up, is a precursor to violent State oppression. I challenge anyone to provide an example of where it's not.

    • Barfly 40.1

      Segregation, no matter how it's dressed up, is a precursor to violent State oppression. I challenge anyone to provide an example of where it's not.

      Well if you consider our current situation "Segregation" I will say New Zealand 2022

    • Nic the NZer 40.2

      Single Sex Schools?

      • weka 40.2.1

        not any more 🤷‍♀️

        • Nic the NZer 40.2.1.1

          You surely mean desegregation of "Single Sex Schools" "is a precursor to violent State oppression".

      • Cricklewood 40.2.2

        Free choice… having to decide between medical intervention and a job you've had for years. Not so much.

        • Tricledrown 40.2.2.1

          How many other vaccines have you had Cricklewood.

          • Cricklewood 40.2.2.1.1

            All of the usual ones plus some more exotic have had 2 covid shots. Have got stubborn about the third I must admit ive been against the widespread mandates from the get go in large part because I was expecting to see what has happened now.

    • Robert Guyton 40.3

      coge – are you aware of the many forms of segregation that have existed in NZ society since forever (Nic the NZer offers just one of those).

      Interested to see what your list looks like, given your intense interest.

    • Andrew Miller 40.4

      Sorry, what ‘segregation’?

      Are you arguing that people who reject established science should have been allowed to continue on as normal despite the increased risk they provided to everyone else and what? Anyone who didn’t want to share a work space an ECE centre, a cafe with the unvaccinated should have quit their jobs and stayed home?

      Describing this as ‘segregation’ is insulting to people who’ve actually suffered it.

      Clearly I missed the memo that this was ‘crap analogy day’.

    • Patricia Bremner 40.5

      Segregation, separation, causing difference. Yes that is bad if permanent. This is temporary under Health Orders. Some choose to believe "covid is not a problem", even "not real' In a pandemic such ideas are dangerous and antisocial. But you know that Cricklewood, or you would not be so angry.

    • Cricklewood 41.1

      Sort of, some of it rubbed me up the wrong way. Personally I think there needs to be an acknowledgement that mandates have hurt people and also pushed them into the arms of conspiracy theorists. I met people in Wellington who just couldnt understand how the the govt could make them choose between a vaccine and a job etc especially after Jacinda specifically said there wouldnt be punishment for those who chose not to be vaccinated. Those people in particular are very receptive to the 'answers' provided by the real fringe elements.

      Very sad say for NZ.

      • weka 41.1.1

        I agree, I don't think it was perfect. Just that she's moved more than I thought she would and she did seem to be making an effort to shift out of ostracisation mode.

        Personally I think there needs to be an acknowledgement that mandates have hurt people and also pushed them into the arms of conspiracy theorists.

        yes. Hard to do that politically, but not impossible.

        • Dennis Frank 41.1.1.1

          I agree. Her acknowledgment seems like too little too late. However she's a liberal and you can't expect a liberal to grasp that there’s no general comprehension of the balance between state's rights and citizen's rights is a structural component of democracy. Any such liberal will always take it for granted that everyone knows how the balance is built in.

          Unreasonable? Depends if anyone got taught it as part of their education. I know I was never taught it at school. Unreasonable to expect folks to know it if it ain't in the education syllabus!

          • weka 41.1.1.1.1

            you can't expect a liberal to grasp that there’s no general comprehension of the balance between state's rights and citizen's rights is a structural component of democracy. Any such liberal will always take it for granted that everyone knows how the balance is built in.

            Can you please say more about that second sentence?

            • Dennis Frank 41.1.1.1.1.1

              Can you please say more about that second sentence?

              Human nature contains inner contradictions. The one I'm referring to is the tendency to assume others are just like us – even though we know we are all unique. So in politics, you get many players who lack the capacity to grasp the differences between people.

              Onsite here it tends to feature in some leftists being unable to comprehend why other leftists see things differently from them. With liberals, there's an evident tendency to assume that reasonable folk see things the same way liberals do. Since liberals get that the balance between the right of the state to rule citizens (which limits their behaviour with laws) and civil rights is part of democracy, they assume other citizens know that too.

              The behaviour of the convoy protestors suggests they view their rights as paramount – and the right of the state to rule hasn't featured in their presentation of their cause to everyone else. Their collective state of mind on the pandemic therefore discounts public health policy. Their internal imbalance on this rights issue drives their dissidence.

              Seems to me the PM, as the primary political representative of the state, ought to have addressed that imbalance. Rather than just disagreeing with them, I mean.

              Liberals don't tend to do such focus on fundamentals because it means taking tacit psychology into account. Such an approach to life always seems too hard for liberals. However there's no real reason for liberals to present to the public as habitually unsophisticated. They can always get their act together instead!

      • Anne 41.1.2

        Ardern, Hipkins and co. acknowledged time and time and time and time… again that mandates hurt people. But they have stood resolute in their endeavour to save lives and in the process have saved thousands of them. Why can't you acknowledge as much? Because you have set yourself on a path of negativism and criticism and you can’t back down?

        They have also done everything they can to ease the burden for those most affected, and we all know the mandates etc. are to be removed as soon as the omicron numbers start trending downward – hopefully only weeks away. That, in itself, renders this protest largely null and void and after today, I doubt there will be many people in this country who would have the time of the day for these destructive numbskulls.

        As Jacinda Ardern said in her 5:30pm press conference: they are very small in number and they do not define New Zealand and will never define NZ.

        Atta girl Jacinda!

  40. Peter 42

    The guy in the high vis coat I've just seen hurling rocks at the cops. I'm sure he would've been most eloquent being one of the negotiators, quietly sipping his tea, nibbling on his Round Wine biscuit and making his point.

  41. Robert Guyton 43

    Chucking bricks – peace and love, peace and love.

  42. Well done, NZ Police.

    Admirable restraint in the face of extreme provocation.

    • Anker 44.1

      Yes front line police are incredible. We owe them a lot. Not just with this protest

    • Jenny how to get there 44.2

      Personally, I think the use of water cannon was not called for, And would have been highly provocative.

      It also sets a very bad precedent.

      In the U.S.

      .

      Confrontations that took place in the era of the American Civil Rights Movement, where water cannons were used by authorities to disperse crowds of protesting African Americans, has led to the demise of water cannons in the United States.[12]

      Water cannon

      From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

      In the U.K.

      Water cannon use outside Northern Ireland is not approved, and would require the statutory authorisation of Parliament in England, or of the devolved assemblies in Wales and the parliament of Scotland.

      Water cannon – Wikipedia

      The home secretary has signalled that she will never approve the use of water cannon on the streets of England and Wales, fearing it may damage police legitimacy and the principle of policing by consent.

      Theresa May rejects use of water cannon in England and Wales

      So who’s idea was this?

      • ianmac 44.2.1

        A water cannon is pressurised water. They bowl people right across the ground. Today they used fire hoses to wet rock throwers who were able to walk to and fro through the water.

      • Peter 44.2.2

        The water cannon no doubt was an idea that had it's seed in the fact there were fires to put out today.

        I've seen someone say online that protestors didn't light the fires so I suppose that means the cops did it as an excuse to use them on protestors. They could have used rubber bullets I suppose.

        I was disappointed to see the lack of tin foil hats in the crowd today. It probably meant the protestors were so discombobulated they couldn't wear the essential safety gear. Worse though, its means I won't get to see any the stories about the heinous police using water to knock their foil hats off so the death rays or whatever would get them.

        • observer 44.2.2.1

          From rioters ripping up paving stones to starting fires, there are always 2 "explanations" by those who have already decided that they must not believe their own eyes, even while we watch it happen.

          Namely, 1) the cops did it 2) Antifa in disguise did it.

          Evidence is not an option.

        • Shanreagh 44.2.2.2

          There was a feed showing a burning bonfire with a suitcase on it, with a protestor taking a light from it in the end of a pitchfork or similar, and touching it to a still standing tent on parliament grounds. Oh sorry, it could have been an agent provocateur in protestors clothing who did this.

          Can't find the exact feed but in this one you can see the protestors feeding the fire.

          https://twitter.com/Te_Taipo/status/1498851886799425536

          I thought water cannon was different to fire hoses. There definitely were fire hoses and fire people there fighting the tent fires and tree fires lit by the protestors. You'd have to be a bit ????!!!!XXX to get in the way of a fire hose I would have thought.

          https://twitter.com/Te_Taipo/status/1498854375573573632

        • Hongi Ika 44.2.2.3

          The Government dismantled the equipment that was emitting the radiation.

    • Anne 44.3

      From what a close relative in the Police Force has said… I have the impression they are a very close knit bunch who watch each others' backs all the time. I'm sure this helps them to get through the type of scenario we've been witnessing these past few weeks.

      A job splendidly done. Thank-you NZ Police.

  43. Grey Area 45

    Today the "protest" descended into a riot. Peace and love, yeah right.

    • observer 45.1

      And well away from Parliament. Smashing windows at the uni campus, because … they could.

      This is basically New Year's Eve at Whangamata, where bottles are thrown in a principled protest against climate change policy [/sarc].

      • observer 45.1.1

        Stuff live update:

        The protesters have lit another fire in a small drum near on the road near the [bus] interchange. They are sitting around the fire in camp chairs and some of them are drinking.

        Yes, it really is like New Year's …

        Time for reporters to update the vocab. Those are not "protesters", against anything.

  44. Adrian 46

    Fuck them, no one wanted to be treated by the unvaxxed since it was available. Not by a dentist, a doctor , a nurse and or cops etc polluting a shit load of mates. Remember they are only 3 per cent. Selfish, self entitled, stupid and lunatics.
    And as for losing a job, sweet fuck all of the dickheads there today have ever held down a job, certainly not one that was covered by a mandate.

    • Cricklewood 46.1

      Ok [deleted]

      • weka 46.1.1

        that's flaming. Please don't, not at this time. Adrian's comment is obviously angry, and he's saying some stupid, classist shit. Critique the politics.

        • Cricklewood 46.1.1.1

          My bad just find the endless mischaracterization tiresome.

          For the record I m not in the slightest bit concerned with the vaccination status of those I interact with both privately and professionally.

          • weka 46.1.1.1.1

            I find it tiresome too.

          • Shanreagh 46.1.1.1.2

            Well I am and it is the last thing that I would want is to be treated at a hospital while ill myself, by someone who is unvaxxed or served a side of Covid in a restaurant.

            You may be sanguine as to the consequences of catching covid from such a preventable source but I am not.

            I am very concerned as to who I mix with, would not knowingly mix with anti vaxxers especially as many/most are also non mask wearers.

            • Cricklewood 46.1.1.1.2.1

              As is your right, going by what happened at my work you are also risk from catching Omicron from someone triple vaxxed and without obvious symptoms Omicron has changed everything.

          • Jenny how to get there 46.1.1.1.3

            Cricklewood

            2 March 2022 at 7:23 pm

            My bad just find the endless mischaracterization tiresome.

            For the record I m not in the slightest bit concerned with the vaccination status of those I interact with both privately and professionally.

            For all our sakes, I hope you don't work in the health sector then.

  45. Just Saying 47

    Weka I'll admit Adern's passive aggression made me angry. But your comment on top of it.

    I'm trying to take a deep breath here. This is not a team sport or a performance competition. It's not who 'wins' or gets a prize.

    How do my ‘reply’s keep turning into comments far away from what I’m responding to?

    Its doing the right thing for the whole nation, its about integrity bringing trust. Its about principle, it's not about her pride, or the ratings, or who wins the next election. She's not cutting the ribbon at a cake rally. This was beyond immature.

    edit to clarify I was referring to Adern’s ‘performance’

    • Just Saying 47.1

      Apologies again. This comment was intended to be a reply to Weka at 4.111

      This time I'm certain, I hit 'reply'.

      There is some kind of glitch in the above as well

    • weka 47.2

      I'm trying to take a deep breath here. This is not a team sport or a performance competition. It's not who 'wins' or gets a prize.

      I don't believe that, and I'm not sure where you got that from.

      Its doing the right thing for the whole nation, its about integrity bringing trust. Its about principle,…

      That's what she got to do after Chch and White Island. This is a different situation altogether, it's a shitshow out of everyone's control (the pandemic). The way our political system works, and the nature of the pandemic, there is no right thing for the whole nation. Had there been no mandates, we probably wouldn't have gotten the high vax rates we did in the time we needed them. Either way, someone was going to lose out. Which leaves us with mitigation.

      Idealpolitik says do the right thing for the whole nation, as does Labour's rhetoric (team of 5 million), realpolitik says they do actually have to win the next election and they have to do it during a long crisis. Imo Ardern sits somewhere between the two.

      I have some critiques of what she said as well, but haven't had time to rewatch for a deeper analysis.

      • Just Saying 47.2.1

        I did have a lot of respect for her after ChCh particularly. And you're right this is different. Ardern is not up to it.

        As to where I got that from, (re your comment), I felt you were judging a performance, as if this has completely replaced any expectation of integrity.

        This isn't about idealpolitick, and no they don't have to win the next election. Integrity is doing the right thing regardless of the outcome for oneself or ones team. No-one can be the best of themselves outside of integrity and some situations demand nothing less. Without integrity it's just empty performance along the pointless road called the lost way. And yes, I will concede there are parts of politics that are just artifice. But now now.

        Its a coincidence, but I was listening to an idea earlier, left field to me, suggesting that the only strategy remaining for left activism lies in explicitly opposing the so-called left wing parties. A desperate long game as the only possible chance of restoring any semblence of a parliamentary 'left'.

        It wasn't until I watched Ardern that I realised that I don't know of anything else that might work. We can't keep electing narcissistic children.

        • weka 47.2.1.1

          Ardern isn't devoid of integrity though, and if she did what I think you want eg there had been no mandates, I've already explained the consequences. You can argue for integrity around mandates, and the people die and get disabled 🤷‍♀️ There was no good way through this, only better and worse. So yes, your position does seem to me to be idealistic. Nothing wrong with that, just that I always look for the pragmatic path as well.

          As for the left opposing left wing parties, it's not a new idea, and I've seen no credible theory that it would work. National in 2023 would be a disaster, far worse than what we have now. If the idea is that that will rally the left somehow, I've not seen evidence of that during the 90s or the Key years. The opposite in fact, where half the left are just struggling to survive and liberal NZ just battens down the hatches for a few terms.

          On climate alone that plan would be disastrous.

          Of course, we could have all swung behind the Greens when they were still radical enough, and that would have shifted the overton window, creating space further on the left for other parties to survive and other movements to arise.

          But no, people are so caught up in their own little world and theoretical politicas that the Greens weren't good enough. It's unbelievable.

          As to where I got that from, (re your comment), I felt you were judging a performance, as if this has completely replaced any expectation of integrity.

          You were wrong. Maybe next time, check out what I mean.

          • Just Saying 47.2.1.1.1

            You can argue for integrity around mandates, and the people die and get disabled.

            I disagree Weka, and at the same time I think you are ignoring those dying and being disabled by unabated neoliberalism, where to this and every government for decades, one death is not too many.

            On climate alone that plan would be disastrous…

            It's already disaster, more of the same facile politics game isn't going to change anything. And this my point on this issue. Disaster. Not naughty Boys and girls, disaster.

            • weka 47.2.1.1.1.1

              I disagree Weka, and at the same time I think you are ignoring those dying and being disabled by unabated neoliberalism, where to this and every government for decades, one death is not too many.

              No I'm fucking not. Can't be bothered with people making shit up about my views tonight.

              • Just Saying

                You know what, Weka,

                I'm sick of incessant misrepresentation of protesters, which includes me. Incessant. They think this…, they're just that…., the real reason is…, they are a member of this or that….., They are being funded by this…., They don't care about other people, they're just selfish and don't care who dies because of their selfishness… What they really, support/believe/think/feel is…., Their minds are being controlled by….

                It's endless. It's exhausting. And it doesn't matter what you try to say, because what you say doesn't matter Jack. Everyone else knows better.

                I was saying your comment ignored.. Not you ignore. Not you don't care. I don't feel I'm capable tonight of listing what I didn't say about you, that I hear about me and about other dissenters, relentlessly. Round and round and round…..

                • weka

                  I have consistently pushed back against 'they're all evil' narratives. For three weeks. Commenting and moderating. I agree, it’s exhausting.

                  I just told you I'm not ignoring neoliberalism in my analysis, here, tonight. Do you believe me? Have you considered it's part of my analysis, but it just doesn't fit into your political box?

        • observer 47.2.1.2

          No-one can be the best of themselves outside of integrity and some situations demand nothing less.

          That's fair enough. What do you think Ardern would say if we could be a fly on the wall when she has a really honest private session with a counsellor, no spin, no politics, only integrity?

          I think it would be something like:

          "God, I'm exhausted, I entered Parliament many years ago to make a difference, but in opposition we couldn't, and I really didn't feel confident in stepping up to the leadership when Andrew had had enough, but I did my best and then when I got the PM's job we were hit with one damn thing after another, some mistakes I own myself, I admit, but others were just thrown at us and when I look around the leaders of the world I don't see anybody else knocking it out of the park, and sometimes I feel like heading home to hug my daughter and leaving this job for good, the stress is constant and draining".

          And I don't think it would be something like:

          "Heh, heh (rubs hands like a Bond villain), now for the next step in my demonic plan …"

          (end of fantasy)

          But here's the thing. Many of Ardern's critics really do think it is the latter. They have constructed this image of her which simply doesn't make any sense, at a human level. Saying she's wrong on policies and should be voted out is reasonable: saying she's motivated by malevolence is not. It isn't supported by any evidence, before or during her current job. It's just … weird.

          • Anker 47.2.1.2.1

            Observoer, I am sure the first bit is what Ardern would say.

          • Just Saying 47.2.1.2.2

            I don't think it was motivated by malevolence, I think she is not up to the job.

            Integrity is not our darkest fears wept to a therapist. Its rising above, its our best selves.

            • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 47.2.1.2.2.1

              And you perhaps think Chris (did you know I ran an airline) Luxon is?

              Jacinda is by far and away the best PM of this country in my lifetime (though Norman Kirk would have excelled her had he lived longer).

          • Kat 47.2.1.2.3

            If I may make an observation, good observing Observer.

            The truth will come out in the end and the full extent of the far rights involvement in this madness at parliament will be revealed.

            The PM has certainly had it rough over the past four years, similar to being constantly in a war zone.

            This country has a massive mental health problem, I doubt Jacinda can fix it. She has every reason to chuck it in and go home to her family. But she won't because it is not her destiny.

            Thankfully.

          • Peter 47.2.1.2.5

            Saying she's motivated by malevolence? That would be mild. The sum of what I've read over the past couple of years would have Ardern as the most evil woman ever born.

            Of course the comments about her say more about the rationality of the commenters than the woman.

  46. Anker 48

    Robert, I find myself in the position where I think I am probably wrong.

    I am finding the scenes on tv really shocking and scary and don't know how this will end in Wellington…….

    I am one of the most compliant, rule abiding people in the world…….

    I support the vaccine and I support the Govts covid response……….

    But the reporter is saying on the tele right now……..What is going to happen tonight in Wellington?

    • Andrew Miller 48.1

      Some people intent on using violence to hold the country to ransom are I imagine going to cause a bunch of criminal damage and end up in confrontations with the cops.
      Hopefully the public stay out of the way and mob get arrested. We’re lucky in this country as this kind of thing is far more common place, but the hand wringing needs to stop. It was patently obvious weeks ago this wasn’t tea about ‘mandates’, but despite that far too many people have kept up the pretence it was despite an ever growing wealth of evidence to the contra's. These people are thugs and they’ll be dealt with (ie arrested and removed, not beaten up) , by a Police force that’s shown remarkable restraint.

      • Shanreagh 48.1.1

        Agree and the PM meeting them would not have made one iota of difference whether it was on day 1 or day 21. The PM was correct to ignore them and leave public disorder to the Police – it is the job of the Police to deal with public disorder. Cmmr Coster endeavoured to de-escalate but once the people with the various groups were not able to control what was happening on the ground then moves had to be made.

        These were never reasonable people wanting to make a reasonable point…..the disparate groups who did not have any connection to each other or any common connection put paid to that.

        I am ever hopeful though of finding out the Ms/Mr Bigs -Verry and Mr Eco toilets would not have been able to fund a protest of this duration I would have thought. And I still want to know who the NZers were who donated the $103,000 to the Canadian Truckers Convoy. (details available for journos from the hackers of the GiveSendGo site)

      • Anker 48.1.2

        Where is the wealth of evidence the protest wasn't about the mandates Andrew? Who kept up the pretence it was? The protesters?

    • Peter 48.2

      I'd say there'd be quite of few for the Wellington homeless community who lost all their stuff today.

  47. Reality 49

    No matter how aggrieved any genuine protesters are, ignoring the aggression, threats and vandalism by others, there was never any excuse for their abhorrent behaviour and preparedness to live in squalor.

    Life is never about getting whatever we want in a civil society. Covid has brought all sorts of challenges for everyone but the majority knuckled down and made the best of it.

  48. Muttonbird 50

    Theory. The major turning point was the installation of those toilet blocks.

    Set up camp. Make abusive signs. Set up a creche. Bring in kitchens. Block park vehicles. Scream at Police. Threaten the PM. Try storm Parliament.

    • All temporary, and all responded to with measured approach.

    Hook up permanent toilets to the mains on Molesworth St?

    • Fire hoses. Pepper spray. Riot squad. Batons. Rubber bullets.

    Nothing enrages middle New Zealand like some self-entitled clowns thinking they can get away with DIY plumbing without consent.

    It was disappointing to see support here for the people who put up those toilet blocks. Apparently they were just innocent, industrious tradies. Massive mistake by whoever organised it because I believe it was the beginning of the end for them.

    Leighton Baker needs to go to jail.

    • Robert Guyton 50.1

      "… thinking they can get away with DIY plumbing without consent."

      You can only push the public so far…

    • Shanreagh 50.2

      For me

      1 the tipping of the waste from the motorhomes into the stormwater drain and then out into the harbour, closing swimming beaches was one of the things that annoyed me. In Welly we have tried long and hard to energise our Council into diverting all those leaky sewer/stormwater connections, WCC has fixed huge pipes some over 100 years old and it has been a joy to walk all along the waterfront and see clear water. Then some selfish motorhome owner/s who don't want to lose their posse in the occupation let their sewage out

      2 the occupation of the Cenotaph, parking motorhomes on it, scribbling all over it, showering on it, shitting in the toilets on it.

      So many other desecrations relating to NZ/Mana whenua.

      Were these protestor/rioters so bereft of knowledge/history as to think that was acceptable.

    • Nic the NZer 50.3

      You should see what we do to people who fail a building consent inspection.

  49. Robert Guyton 51

    "The prime minister, Jacinda Ardern, has condemned those responsible for the violence seen at parliament today. “We will never ever excuse it. It was an attack on our frontline police. It was an attack on our parliament. It was an attack on our values and it was wrong,” she said at a press conference at the Beehive this evening.

    “One day it will be our day to try and understand how a group of people could succumb to such wild mis- and disinformation.”"

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/live-updates/02-03-2022/20-of-middlemore-beds-filled-by-covid-positive-patients

    • Anne 51.1

      Yes, I was pleased with that comment too Robert. It shows that Ardern is not blind to the under-lying causes, and I have no doubt they will be well and truly traversed in the up-coming review that has been promised concerning all the Covid responses to date and the fallout.

    • Poission 51.2

      One day it will be our day to try and understand how a group of people could succumb to such wild mis- and disinformation.”"

      https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/7314563/?utm_source=showcase&utm_campaign=visualisation/7314563

      Is this misinformation,as the numbers are incorrect.

      • weka 51.2.1

        there's a difference between misinformation and mistakes.

      • Muttonbird 51.2.2

        I'm sure I will regret this but, what on earth are you trying to say?

        • Robert Guyton 51.2.2.1

          Poission is trying to sheet blame to the PM, but weka clarifies their mis-thinking.

          • weka 51.2.2.1.1

            no really, I just was pointing out that we can't tell what is misinformation and what is mistake in that infographic. I still don't know.

            • Muttonbird 51.2.2.1.1.1

              I think I get what Poission is talking about. 56 Covid deaths doesn't include apparent vaccine deaths and that is the “misinformation” which is angering the parliament protestors.

              It is tragic when someone has a bad reaction to a vaccine and dies. The only one of the 5 Poission is referring to that I can remember is the young lad from Dunedin who had a dose and became unwell. Unfortunately he didn't seek medical attention and died. It is tragic.

              But if we look at the apparent 5 vaccine deaths from 10 million doses completed in New Zealand we can see it is thankfully a very, very, small risk.

              A much greater risk is the 56 Covid deaths from 150,000 Covid cases. Most people recognise this, but some people refuse, unfortunately.

            • Cricklewood 51.2.2.1.1.2

              I'll try and find it tomorrow, a while ago I found a really neat article that explained what happened with masks. From early on when mask were supposedly useless to where we are now.

              It was really amazing, early on the whole no mask thing spun on an issue of semantics based on long outdated information that hadn't been updated in a modern guideline essentiallygoverning what particle size constitutes an areosol. Took researches almost a year to untangle that mess. Through to their disappointment govts went to cloth masks which in many cases just provided a false sense of security instead of giving the advice we recently had to where n95s. Which was what the specialists wanted from the get go. Because they actually work.

  50. ianmac 52

    And plenty of hot sausage rolls and chocolate eclairs for the entire police establishment. What provocation met with patience and tolerance. And they will still be on duty tonight.

  51. joe90 53

    By the time we're done these shenanigans will have cost people their lives.

    https://twitter.com/AndreAlessi/status/1498919851062345728

  52. Psycho Milt 54

    Having spent the day torn between "But what about the right to protest" and "About time these fuckwits were given the arse," I'm now wondering what happens to central Wellington at night when there's a large number of ferals who've been totally wired by a day of violence and are now facing up to having no vehicle, no accommodation, no food and only wet clothes to wear on a cold Wellington night. For a lot of people, this is not going to end well.

    • Muttonbird 54.1

      Did those enablers with their caravans and motorhomes just drive off and leave them?

      • Psycho Milt 54.1.1

        It was either that or have the expensive asset picked up by a forklift and taken off to be impounded, so you bet they did. All those right-wing blowhards are suddenly nowhere to be seen and it's just the ones with no comfy vehicle to spend the night in still out there.

    • Tricledrown 54.2

      They had 23 days to move vehicles.

      They chose not to its their fault some wealthy farmers at the protest stayed in hotel rooms.

      • Incognito 54.2.1

        Oh come on, we all know that wealthy farmers stay in the homes normally reserved for their offspring attending uni, which is closed because of the protest.

    • Andrew Miller 54.3

      The police seem to be giving the impression it’s no longer a ‘large number’.
      Obviously even a small number can make an area unsafe, but hopefully they’ll be able to finish things off quite quickly.

  53. joe90 55

    They're concerned about their kids' health. Or something.

    https://twitter.com/KingSara/status/1498889474150834177

  54. One day it will be our day to try and understand how a group of people could succumb to such wild mis- and disinformation.”

    I venture to suggest that it is a similar strand of belief or unwillingness to view more rational views or inability because of something to understand when one's thought processes have been skewed, or an inability to discern bad actors who want to turn you into pawns as may have driven the Chch gunman. They have lost touch with reality and this is reinforced by mixing with, and seeing only material that reinforces one's own point of view.

    The gunman was a meticulous planner, people involved in the protests also. The misogyny on display.

    Education will be a key as if you are taken in by an anti health message you may be taken in by payday lenders etc etc. If you find no harm in standing next to an alt right person whose aim is overthrow of the govt then education may help. Health will be a key too, cult thinking takes time, effort and sympathy to unwind.

    The ones today seemed to be in for a stoush.

    • Andrew Miller 56.1

      Some people have an astonishing ability to wish away inconvenient facts if acknowledging them undermines a central plank of their world view.
      So for many anti vaxxers they won’t ever bring themselves to acknowledge the presence of the anti semites, the neo Nazis, the misogynists etc etc, and there seems to plenty of evidence that education hasn’t much effect, certainly once they’re immersed in that world.
      They’re self reinforcing communities, that will always have an answer to anything ‘rational’.
      I think the only answer is to either stop people getting into that world by empathetically addressing concerns at the point they may legitimately be ‘questions’.
      Once they’re down the rabbit hole, the only hope is to find a way to replace the unhealthy communities they’ve become part of with healthy ones. Only then are they receptive to education. No one should be under any illusions as to how difficult that’s likely to be.
      Some of course (and this was clearly a large chunk of Camp COVID) the anti vax thing is just part of a wider world view. With them, a lot of the time the best you can hope for is to minimise the harm they can cause.

  55. We will find lives taken over by, and believing social media behind this. The Disinformation Dozen, their endless memes playing to preying upon people who feel sad and unlistened to. Perhaps we need a Chch solution to pernicious social media…..or perhaps we need to educate our people so they are not taken in.

    • Tricledrown 57.1

      People become obsessive like hoarding same with conspiracy theories People become obsessed with not just one conspiracy but just about all conspiracies.

      So it is very easy to manipulate these people to believing any old bs.

      But changing their minds no chance.Obsessive Conspiracy Disorder. A new word for the dictionary.

  56. adam 58

    Maybe if labour had ended it's love affair with liberalism and stopped the greed of a few. By actually building houses, curbed property speculators, attacked poverty, not created a two tier welfare system and did the Christian thing, to up lift the poor.

    Then we would not be in this bloody mess. A pox on labour and the Greens.

    You all let your hate get the better off you. How vial it has been to watch.

    You have no moral high ground, bashing down is truly the most scummy of actions. A pox on your house.

    • Incognito 58.1

      Please see your GP for treatment of apophenia.

    • Patricia Bremner 58.2

      Adam "vile". "A pox on your house." meaning….

      Attacking people "for being warring factions who end up harming others"

      Are you sure of this. A group of those harmed by this had representatives try to "arrest" and Kangaroo Court Andrew Little., sent a list of demands no reasonable Government could follow, then befouled the surrounds and harbour, ignoring Tangata whenua because "no-one would listen.' Finally burned everything including a children's slide. We are supposed to respond.

      We did. With reasonable force. Now we examine the ideas and concerns rationally.

      It will take time and patience, and a rebuilding of trust on all sides.

  57. observer 59

    Some scenes from today's protest mob violence:

    https://twitter.com/AnnekeJSmith/status/1498953884123136001

  58. Jenny how to get there 60

    Maori activist and anti-racist campaigner Joe Trinder.

    Joe Trinder

    19h ·

    This crisis in Wellington was not a peaceful protest or even a riot it was an insurrection nothing less. The intent was to execute either the Prime minister, Minister of Health or the Speaker of the House

    You can't tell me if not given an opportunity they wouldn't have stormed into Parliament and started attacking our nations leaders they would have scalped them.

    We need to stop being complacent with this national security threat the ring leaders need to be brought to justice they are in breach of the section 81 of the crimes act for sedition to incite, procure, or encourage violence, lawlessness, disorder that is punishable for up to 2 years imprisonment.

    Activism has to be peaceful have leadership and avoid violence.

    This event was based on conspiracy theories, threats and intimidation while attacking journalist as fake news. They were literally demanding Police to execute Journalists.

    This event resembled a Fascist Putsch from Nazi Germany 1923 our returned servicemen would be turning in their graves seeing the disrespect for the democracy they fought and died to defend.

    I don't like to mince my words because I know the ring leaders and I know precisely what they are trying to achieve and it looks nothing like peace love and harmony.

    #endtheprotest

    Joe Trinder was a founding members of the Mana Party and the editor of that party's blog. Mana News.

    Joe Trinder is one of those Maori that Helen Clark once referred to as "Haters and Wreckers", over their opposition to Labour's selling off the rights to seabed to an Australian commercial seabed mining company and other business interests, without allowing legal objections to be raised by Tangata Whenua with traditional rights to these areas.

    I find it ironic, that all those Left Maori leaders who were once referred to as "Haters and Wreckers" – Hone Harawira, Annette Sykes, Tama Iti, Joe Trinder, when the real "Haters and Wreckers' turn up, have all defended the Prime Minister and the Labour government’s handling of the covid crisis.

    You find who your real friends are when the chips are down.

    Were all the Left so non-sectarian.

    Class awareness is knowing there are two sides.

    Class consciousness is knowing who is there with you..

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