Debating with nazis

Written By: - Date published: 8:34 pm, March 24th, 2023 - 278 comments
Categories: gay rights, human rights, Politics, Social issues, uncategorized - Tags:

So Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull aka Posie Parker is coming to Aotearoa New Zealand and intends to spread her message.

Wikipedia describes her as someone who “has used posters, billboards, stickers, and social media to promote anti-trans messages, and she has organized events in the United Kingdom, the United States, and Australia that have been protested by supporters of transgender rights.”

Last week she held a rally in Melbourne which was noteworthy because actual nazis showed up and supported her. She claimed innocence but rather spoiled things by subsequently flashing a white supremacy sign during a video.

https://twitter.com/shaneellall/status/1637913373986947072

And she thinks that Tucker Carlson is “an intelligent, really lovely, welcoming, warmly welcoming man”.

Auckland Council has approved her plan to hold a rally tomorrow at Albert Park.

I am not surprised.  To be frank the law relating to events in public open spaces is very permissive.  Even self declared actual nazis have had their right to protest protected.  A number of them were present at the Parliament sit in last year. The threshold for banning speech is high.

An attempt today to overturn Immigration granting Parker a visa has been declined by Justice Gendall.

Some comment on the decision is in this article by Jonathan Milne:

Human rights organisations applied to the High Court for an interim order to prevent the anti-transgender activist entering New Zealand on Friday afternoon, pending a more in-depth judicial review of the Immigration Minister’s decision.

The groups were unsuccessful. Early this afternoon, Justice David Gendall said he shared some of their concerns about Parker’s potential threat to public order, but was loath to hastily second-guess the Immigration Minister without fully considering the arguments – including giving Parker herself the opportunity to put her case.

He said his reasons for refusing interim orders were largely technical and procedural.

If there had been more time, the decision might have been very different. Immigration Minister Michael Wood might well have been directed to intervene.

“My sympathy for the applicants’ position is grounded largely in the information provided by the applicants and the Crown, which to my eye appears to clearly raise some issues of public order – issues which the minister or the delegated decision maker would have been unable to ignore,” Gendall ruled.

But properly hearing and considering both sides of the argument wasn’t possible ahead of Parker’s anticipated arrival at Auckland International Airport.

The legal challenge the groups took on was always a difficult one because, in the words of ministers, it’s a high legal bar to deny someone entry from a visa-waiver country.

The Government has been criticised but to be frank the law was against them.  Ms Parker had no disqualifying characteristics so again I am not surprised although I am sure that Immigration were told to look at the application very carefully.

National earlier nailed its colours to the mast by welcoming Ms Parker to the country.

National Party deputy leader Nicola Willis told First Up Immigration New Zealand would struggle to find evidence to keep Keen-Minshull out of the country and believed she should be allowed entry.

“This is a free and liberal democracy and part of that is that we believe in freedom of expression even when we really don’t like the views of those that are expressing themselves freely.

“We uphold that right. And I’m a big believer that sunlight is a good disinfectant. Where people have views that some of us find abhorrent, sometimes the best thing is to allow others to respond with their counter views.”

The use of “disinfectant” in the argument is a misnomer.  It was not that long ago that National objected to Chelsea Manning coming to New Zealand on the grounds it might upset America.  This suggests an extraordinarily flexible approach by National to the concept of free speech.

And debates are all well and good but is it actually a good thing to debate with nazis or those who forment hate for social media clicks?

Aamer Rahman nailed it with this speech.

Carmel Sepuloni has I think the perfect response:

I am a woman.

Let me share my thoughts as a NZ woman. Given some overseas woman is trying to make out her views are ours.

Im not worried about trans women sharing the same bathrooms. If they are/were open plan and didn’t have dividers, I’d feel uncomfortable with that if it were anyone! Awkward if that was the case but it’s not.

I don’t feel threatened by or at-risk with trans women – sometimes envious because they often rock things better than I ever could.

I don’t feel danger for my children, my sons or my nieces because there is no rational reason to feel that way.

I don’t question or fight other people’s gender identities because I support and understand we are in so many ways the same and in so many ways splendidly different.

I celebrate and lift up those that still have to fight on the daily, to be themselves.

I don’t want to give any platform to the annoying, angry, non sensical voices that serve to spread hatred, negativity and deny others the same human rights they purport to be fighting for themselves.

I am happy in my life with my circle of straight and LGBTQI+ friends and family. I love them, they love me. We are just intrinsically part of each others world. It just is.

Some weirdo visitor from overseas with stupid views of the world fuelled by misinformation and misplaced anger won’t change that.

There is a potentially much larger trans affirming rally counter protest tomorrow which I can’t make because I will be out of the country.  But can I urge people to make it.  We should side with our trans brothers and sisters.  Not from someone whose shrill rhetoric gets the support of nazis.

278 comments on “Debating with nazis ”

  1. Anker 1

    And yet Mickey in a comment you made the other day you admitted this so labelled white supremacy sign was almost certainly an accident.

    Posey is playing with her zipper.

    carmel sepulosi is entitled to her view, but other think differently.

    gender ideology is crumbling overseas. Sturgeon fell because of her attempt to impose gender I’d. And then when it came out a double rapist was housed in a women’s prison she became a dithering idiot trying to explain why maybe that trans woman wasn’t a women

    55% of people on a Stuff poll (that woke rag) think Posie should be here. Your losing mate. No one is buying the Nazi slur

    • SPC 1.1

      No.

      1. The Sturgeon government over-reached itself in promoting self ID (without public support), and thinking it could impose its will via majority in the Scottish parliament – when the UK could block the legislation.
      2. Recognising gender identity difference and legal acceptance of self ID are not synonymous. And most people realise this.
      3. Acceptance of a persons right to tour in promotion of their ideology is not the same thing as agreement.
      4. Her name is Kellie-Jay Keen. Posie (conscious rebel – awake and not asleep metaphor) Parker is her social media moniker/alias.
    • tWiggle 1.2

      Sturgeon stepped down because she was tired, like Ardern, and because there was probably some dodge coming up with her husband, Chief Exec of her SNP party, alas. He resigned from his position on Saturday.

      The Scottish electorate respect her as a leader, and respected her actions through covid. What I have seen of her in vids shows a whip-smart politico and an approachable human being with a sense of humour. She certainly showed up PM Johnson.

      You may believe some trans-gate scandal brought her down, but you're way wrong there. Not all roads lead to Rome.

    • Cricklewood 1.3

      Using a screen grab image like that to somehow confer someone is a nazi is fucking ridiculous. There's an image of that other well known nazi sympathizer Jacinda making the same hand signal posted on kiwiblog.

      Pretty amazing and sad that the bunch of men are leading the charge to shut down woman led events.

    • Visubversa 1.4

      Wow, scary signs. We can't have that now can we.

    • mickysavage 1.5

      And yet Mickey in a comment you made the other day you admitted this so labelled white supremacy sign was almost certainly an accident.

      I did but then I read a lot more about her and changed my mind.

  2. Anne 2

    You beat me to it by 15 minutes mickysavage. 🙂

    Composed a lengthy comment based on Jonathan Milne's opinion piece but you've done the job. Thank-you.

    Thankyou also to Jonathan Milne for his contribution which came from the heart.

    Further excerpt from the link provided:

    …when a family member very close to me is caught in this metaphorical crossfire.

    Not that Parker would see this smart, kind, beautiful young person as a civilian in her war; to her, they're an enemy combatant, a threat to women. She characterises mums and dads who support their loved trans children as "groomers".

    It's hard for me to imagine that Parker knows any transgender person as a human being; the trans people she describes are face-painted caricatures, garish monsters, "paedo freaks".

    That sums it all up for me.

  3. Red Blooded One 3

    Thank you Mickey Savage. Carmels response is thoughtful and inclusive. 👍

  4. Tuffie 4

    What a load of rubbish. Just shows what little you have. The wikipedia article is written by a bunch of activists who hate KJK. Not really an unbiased source. You quoting it is pretty revealing.
    This toxic ideology is on its way out. Unfortunately there will be more casualties before it's done.
    500 young people in this country on puberty blockers, the long term impacts of which are poorly understood.
    But we do know that premature osteoporosis, sterility, anorgasmia and permanent brain impairment are on the list.
    Good one.
    All the lesbians being told we have to accept men in out dating pool are so happy to be subjected to this conversion therapy by another name. Ditto for the gay men and the women who think they are gay men.
    Homophobia is rife in this movement.
    And all the women in prison, in rape crisis centres, in refuges and more having to accept men in what should be single sex spaces.
    Women say no. And we will keep saying no. We will never give up our spaces and our words.

    • SPC 4.1

      Yes sure the promotion of self ID can/has lead to problems with too early medicalisation of identity development struggles (and given we now know the risk of these there is the being wary of doing harm – even where the person wants to continue on this path, let alone reconsider).

      And yes recognition of the gender spectrum, from non binary to trans (not in accord with birth sex) gender should not be in a way that is a threat to those born female.

      However I do not see the issues of non cisgender ID or non binary sexuality as problematic. There is no (good) reason why those those of difference in gender and those in difference in sexuality should be in any conflict against each other. As the cisgender heterosexuals have accepted others as equal members of human society others, so do these 2 groups need to get along.

      Individuals become, and they are identify who they are in their gender expression and sexuality in socialisation with/relationship to others.

    • Shanreagh 4.2

      Tuffie, what fabulous, fabulous words. Thank you.

      All the lesbians being told we have to accept men in out dating pool are so happy to be subjected to this conversion therapy by another name. Ditto for the gay men and the women who think they are gay men.
      Homophobia is rife in this movement.
      And all the women in prison, in rape crisis centres, in refuges and more having to accept men in what should be single sex spaces.
      Women say no. And we will keep saying no. We will never give up our spaces and our words.

      I hate it that people are trying to shoehorn us into accepting ideas that are inherently anti women while minimising our thoughts by ‘toiletting’ them as Carmel has.
      I use the toilet idea as part of the prison, rape crisis, refuges examples. These are never addressed by the likes of MS & certainly do not appear in Carmel’s statement.

    • Anker 4.3

      100% Tuffie

    • Psycho Milt 4.4

      "Homophobia is rife in this movement."

      Yes, there's more than one elephant in this particular room.

    • mickysavage 4.5

      Tuffie I am interested. Where do you think our trans brothers and sisters should go and shouldn't we be making space for them too?

      • Shanreagh 4.5.1

        Good grief…..it has never been about making our trans people 'go' in the streets or not providing for them.

        It has always been about if people have rights that are inconsistent with female rights to safe spaces we built places for them. We don't force women to give up their safe spaces.

        If we need to fund through our tax dollars, or well planned legislation then I have no objection.

  5. Yes I agree we should ban all heretics from these shores.

    In fact we should have a ceremony where everyone repeats the TWAW mantra, and anyone who disobeys should be shunned, ostracised, fired, and have rocks thrown at them.

    I mean, it's all about human rights.

    • Anker 5.1

      Yes we should repeat that mantra Roblogic

      "two legs bad, four legs good". opps, I mean trans women are real women. And if we don't say this, we must be a nazi.

    • Shanreagh 5.2

      But women don't have human rights.

      /intense sarcasm

      Every time I see that TWAW I am reminded of the fairy tale about the 'Emperor having no clothes' I think it must be part of the books we think about when people try to pull the wool over another's eyes…..like Anker's "two legs bad, four legs good analogy.

  6. SPC 6

    National Party deputy leader Nicola Willis told First Up Immigration New Zealand would struggle to find evidence to keep Keen-Minshull out of the country and believed she should be allowed entry.

    “This is a free and liberal democracy and part of that is that we believe in freedom of expression even when we really don’t like the views of those that are expressing themselves freely.

    “We uphold that right. And I’m a big believer that sunlight is a good disinfectant. Where people have views that some of us find abhorrent, sometimes the best thing is to allow others to respond with their counter views.”

    The use of “disinfectant” in the argument is a misnomer. It was not that long ago that National objected to Chelsea Manning coming to New Zealand on the grounds it might upset America. This suggests an extraordinarily flexible approach by National to the concept of free speech.

    There is a case for asking the current National Party leadership to admit they got it wrong in that case – and whether they they would support an invitation for Manning to come to New Zealand in 2024, regardless of who forms the next government.

  7. Phillip ure 7

    I think I'm gonna have to go..

    To the anti- demo…

    Ya hafta stand up to the hate-peddlers..

    I'll do it for sally and tilly..

    A hand of friendship stretched back over the decades..

    • Anker 7.1

      Free country Phillip, I completely support your right to a peaceful protest.

      What the Tras don't realize was two weeks ago virtually no one in NZ had heard of Posie Parker. The tras could have ignored it and no one would be any of the wiser. They clearly haven't heard of the Streisand effect

    • Molly 7.2

      You cast me as a hate peddler then phil.

      Choose one topic to discuss that you think justifies that claim, and we'll see if we can do better on here.

    • I knew Sally and Tilly too back in the day,

    • Psycho Milt 7.4

      Bloke thinks he should go to protest women in speaking in public. Disappointed but not surprised, it seems to be much more common among blokes than I'd suspected.

    • Molly 7.5

      Did you go phil?

      How did you find it?

  8. Molly 8

    This post is a richness of embarrassments.

    I really thought TS would be able to be the platform for evidenced and reasonable debate. It doesn't appear to be so on this issue.

    Discarding opinions because they come from people who don't pass purity tests, without acknowledgement of how easily those tests can be rigged.

    When did we lose the capacity to debate the issue, and not denigrate the person?

    It's a poor substitute.

    • RedLogix 8.1

      I really thought TS would be able to be the platform for evidenced and reasonable debate. It doesn't appear to be so on this issue.

      Just last night I had a marvelous conversation on an open, unmoderated YouTube thread on a quite contentious topic. There was the usual back and forth establishing our views, but remarkably we were able to uncover some surprising reasons and motivations for our divergent ideas, and from there were able to build something of a mutual consensus. It took some time and effort but I think we finished up both feeling respected and heard. And we both learned something.

      Serendipity has delivered some excellent conversations over the years here at TS. But sadly they have become increasingly rare. The last five years or so I felt I was too often treading on eggshells and have for the most part given it away.

      • Molly 8.1.1

        It's a strange approach to discourse. I welcome challenges to my perspective, it tests my own and my ability to communicate my perspective effectively. Listening to someone who disagrees, can sometimes lead to a change in perspective, or a complete position change if information is provided that I had not considered. It's a form of tempering the steel of your argument that can either leave it shattered or stronger.

        I work on the principle that if someone's perspective well understood can shatter my own, then the reverse is also true.

        So, while I learn a lot from those I agree with, the strength of my argument often comes from engaging with those I don't.

        I watch with dismay the adoption of many who should know better of character smearing, rather than accurate and full-on engagement of views.

    • Anker 8.2

      Having been smeared and vilified myself on my professional bodies page, I recognise what is happening here with Kelly for what it is.

      First they smear you, then they cancel you. This is exactly what happened to me. Why would I give any energy or time to people using the same tactics around Kelly Jean….

      It is all a big diversion from engaging in geniune debate.

    • mickysavage 8.3

      This post is a richness of embarrassments.

      It is mostly a collection of different responses to the issue and some background to Ms Parker.

      It also includes my view that legally Immigration and Auckland Council could not do anything to stop Ms Parker from speaking.

      The background context is important and if we are going to have a debate then the context is relevant.

      I really thought TS would be able to be the platform for evidenced and reasonable debate. It doesn't appear to be so on this issue.

      The Standard has had a number of posts covering both sides of the issue. I have received considerable kick back at the pro TERF posts that have been posted and my own view on the issue is clear.

      What I don't hear from the other side is commentary on how the rights of our trans brothers and sisters should be treated and how their rights should be respected.

      • Belladonna 8.3.1

        Seems pretty clear to me.

        No woman I know has any issue with trans-spaces.

        The issue is always with the infringement of men (especially those self-IDing as women, but with no other follow up surgery or hormone treatment) on women-only spaces.

        I would suggest that there are always solutions to this. They are often more expensive and more complicated. Perhaps the many trans supporters could start fundraising and advocating for this solution (as women did for rape crisis centres, for generations)

        For example:

        • A wing in men's prisons for trans-women.
        • Provision of uni-sex self-contained toilet and changing rooms for trans-girls/boys in schools (rather than the open access changing areas)
        • Provision of trans crisis and sexual violence services.
        • Provision of 'open' categories in sports (alongside the existing women's ones).
        • Legislation supporting that women (and men, for that matter) have the right to date the sex/gender that they please. And that, therefore, trans-women are not able to join lesbian dating sites/services; join lesbian groups, or visit lesbian clubs and bars. There is nothing, of course, stopping trans setting up their own social services, and welcoming others into their spaces, should they so choose.

        The 'solution' of co-opting women's spaces is very clearly not one that women will accept.

        • Anne 8.3.1.1

          Good to see someone come up with positive solutions.

          Providing space for trans people and related groups is the only option available regardless of cost.

          It isn't appropriate that men who identify as women but are still 'intact' should be able to use women-only spaces in particular toilets. But by the same token there is a safety issue for them using men-only spaces.

          Who meets the cost of introducing the necessary structural changes is open for debate and I can see yet another stoush looming in the not too distant future. 🙂

        • Chris 8.3.1.2

          Thanks Belladonna for posting those sensible solutions. I think you are right that with goodwill there is a way through this.

          [Do you intend to show your surname in your username here? You haven’t done so previously, which is why I’m asking – Incognito]

      • Psycho Milt 8.3.2

        What trans rights are the women you're slurring as "TERFs" failing to respect?

        • mickysavage 8.3.2.1

          It is short hand for feminists not wishing to accept trans women into their spaces.

          Use of the phrase is meant to avoid a two hour discussion on what to call this group and is not pejorative.

          If Parker had a meaningful contribution to the debate there could have been merit to her speaking.

          But judging on her recent behaviour all that would have happened is the smearing of trans comrades and allegations of billionaire pharma support for the Trans movement.

          And can I add that I have generally kept out of this debate except to express support for gender identification.

          There have been a number of posts on this site that could be interpreted as opposing trans rights. This post is an attempt to provide some balance.

          • weka 8.3.2.1.1

            Please have an in depth look at this so that you understand why the word terf is a pejorative.

            https://terfisaslur.com/

            If you didn't already understand that some of the worst misogyny we've seen has been coming from trans identified males and trans allies, now you do.

            Golriz Ghahraman tweeted yesterday calling Tamaki's motorcylists TERFs. Terf is an acronym for trans exclusionary radical feminist. Rarely does anyone supporting gender ideology use the term in that way anymore. They use the term to mean anyone they consider anti-trans. I was told by lw men this week that terf basically equals nazi sympathiser.

            Irrespective of how you personally use the term, that is the context in which it is being use widely. It's a weaponised word used to stop women from talking about our sex based rights.

            • weka 8.3.2.1.1.1

              gender critical person (GC), or gender critical feminist (if referring to actual GCFs), are both useful terms (assuming you are not simply using them as synonyms for anti-trans. If you mean anti-trans then please use that term, because then everyone knows what you mean).

            • Belladonna 8.3.2.1.1.2

              Golriz Ghahraman tweeted yesterday calling Tamaki's motorcylists TERFs

              It's probably the first time anyone has called members of the Destiny Church feminists!

          • SDCLFC 8.3.2.1.2

            But I don't know that for myself – because I haven't heard her because others decided I shouldn't

          • Anker 8.3.2.1.3

            I came across this from a book I am thumbing through at the moment called

            "Bad Arguements, 100 of the most important fallacies in Western Philosophies"

            It is called Reduction ad Hitlerum……."originating in regard to the ignorant and routine nature of many on-line "postings" and "chat room" conversations involving such specific ad hominem arguements as RAH, some have suggested a rule that whenever someone first resorts to making comparison to Hitler or Nazis in an arguement, the argument should be considered over and the Nazi reference maker considered to have forfeited the argument."

      • Shanreagh 8.3.3

        If you are trying to debate why do you use the slur TERF?

        • mickysavage 8.3.3.1

          Because I don't consider it to be a slur. But in the future to avoid this sort of argument I will use GC.

    • SPC 9.1

      Woman's Liberation Front is a genuine feminist organisation – it’s for womens reproductive autonomy, women's safety from male violence and against commercial exploitation of women in the sex industry (KJK also wants laws against pornography and prostitution – there some feminists also have common cause with conservatives).

      Sure she does pose the left as a threat to women as a deliberate tilt to gain support from the conservative right (including funding for her cause and tours).

      But WOLF is not part of that.

      https://womensliberationfront.org/

      • Anker 9.1.1

        I began to recognise the left as a threat to freedom of speech and women long before I ever heard of Kelly Jean. Kelly Jean was a long time member of the UK Labour Party and had always voted Labour.

        Around 2015 a women's group of about 500 was established and about 20 trans women joined. They started acting like men and when Kelly Jean confronting one, no one stood up for her. It is a familiar feeling to me.

        My mother and uncle were life time members of the Labour Party. Many of my family members are too. I worked hard for Labour and gave them generous donations. Then they shut us down.

  9. Shanreagh 10

    MS just give it a rest.

    You speak no better or worse than many others but you add nothing that has not been covered over and over.

    Otherwise read Molly

    24 March 2023 at 9:43 pm

    This post is a richness of embarrassments.

    I really thought TS would be able to be the platform for evidenced and reasonable debate. It doesn't appear to be so on this issue.

    Discarding opinions because they come from people who don't pass purity tests, without acknowledgement of how easily those tests can be rigged.

    When did we lose the capacity to debate the issue, and not denigrate the person?

    It's a poor substitute.

    When did you start to believe that women's rights were worth nothing. Most of the women I know support Trans rights, they see echoes of the exclusions we have suffered.

    You are just confirming over and over and over again that when push comes to shove left wing males with always support other males no matter how they are dressed in preference to supporting left wing females.

    Thanks very much.

    I actually believe that I can go along and with my knowledge of the No debate and self ID, Women's studies papers, background in human rights work that I can make up my own mind. I don't need a whole group of bagpipe playing shouters to try to stop me going or hearing because they don't like PP focus on Women's issues.

    Who says we support everything she says, may be we just like that she says up you with a wooden spoon to the male establishment, loudly, while looking good.

    Shame on you…who needs enemies when we've got LW men to support us.

    • SPC 10.1

      You are just confirming over and over and over again that when push comes to shove left wing males with always support other males no matter how they are dressed in preference to supporting left wing females.

      Do you wish to infer that left wing males support other males more than right wing males? Or as another case of it happening?

      PS

      It is well known that more women than men support the political left and more women than men support gender recognition.

      The question is whether the self ID risk posed to women is sufficient to have impact on their support. This might be the case, where polling led to the UK government to block Scottish legislation (to the extent that UK Labour is no longer supporting self ID).

      • Shanreagh 10.1.1

        No not right wing males…….

        I sense males here, when push comes to shove as it has evolved over the last few days, will stick with any males whether they are males or transwomen on here above the wishes, desires and futures of left wing females.

        I want left wing males to say unequivocally that they support our wishes, desires, political futures above the ideas, many of which are exclusionary and prejudiced, that are put forward by some in trans movement.

        I want LW males to be aware that if we want to listen to a person talking about women's issues we are quite capable of reading her background, hearing her message and then making our own minds up. We do not need huge protests of people many of whom in their day to day lives don't give a rats a*** about women's rights, climate change or co governance issues to shout us down.

        We don't need to have Nazis mansplained to us. We know about Nazis, we know about conservative Christians.

        We know that when LW males did not listen to us about the possible denigration of females flowing from the trans movements that some conservatives seem to get it.

        Then despite all of this many women support trans rights. I know I do.

        I do not support their right to tell me who to listen to. Get lost!

        • SPC 10.1.1.1

          I would question the extent to which conservatives (male and female), including promise keepers and those opposed to same sex marriages "get it" – where are they on women's safety (as per access to justice in courts)?

          But yes, indicating support for transgender rights over women's safety advocacy is binary thinking.

          • Shanreagh 10.1.1.1.1

            But yes, indicating support for transgender rights over women's safety advocacy is binary thinking.

            We should be able to rely on people from the left to support this above. from SPC.

        • mickysavage 10.1.1.2

          I know a huge number of progressive women who support trans rights. And if you look throught this site I tend to keep out of this issue. The recent event has been newsworthy and deserved to be covered and recorded.

          • Shanreagh 10.1.1.2.1

            Of course many women support trans rights but MS our concern is not and never has been about giving rights to similar marginalised groups as women were/are.

            It has always been that by recognising trans rights we do not do away with the ability of women to have safe spaces.

            This is such as simple concept that has been repeated over and over again. yet keeps being repeated that women don't respect trans rights.

            We just want to protect our safe spaces & beef up the safeguarding of children.

            Do this and a whole group of us would think our stances have been met.

            You won't get anywhere by casting women as the enemy.

            • mickysavage 10.1.1.2.1.1

              You won't get anywhere by casting women as the enemy

              I am pretty sure I have not done this. One particular female who was supported by nazis and members of the extreme right and who engages in the most extreme rhetoric against trans people I do consider to be the enemy but I can pretty confidently say that I have never described gender critical feminists as being the enemy.

              • Anker

                I came across this from a book I am thumbing through at the moment called

                "Bad Arguements, 100 of the most important fallacies in Western Philosophies". I am posting it in response to the heading of the post "debating with Nazis"

                It is called Reduction ad Hitlerum……."originating in regard to the ignorant and routine nature of many on-line "postings" and "chat room" conversations involving such specific ad hominem arguements as RAH, some have suggested a rule that whenever someone first resorts to making comparison to Hitler or Nazis in an arguement, the argument should be considered over and the Nazi reference maker considered to have forfeited the argument."

                • mickysavage

                  The title was used because Parker’s rhetoric was that extreme it attracted actual nazis to a recent rally.

                  • Nic the NZer

                    Didn't know she was also fluent in German.

                  • Stuart Munro

                    I'm not sure even the contemporary neonazi groups are accurately described as Nazis. Their Furher would likely have said of them something like:

                    I never attended an academy, and yet I have conquered Europe all by myself. Traitors! I've been betrayed and deceived from the very beginning! What a monstrous betrayal of the German people…but all those traitors will pay. They'll pay with their own blood. THEY SHALL DROWN IN THEIR OWN BLOOD!

                    • Anker

                      Love it Stuart. As PP said about the "nazis" they are sad, pathetic little boys.

                      She also said she abhors nazis.

                  • Anker

                    No Mickey, those nazis turn up to all the protests in Melbourne. I will try and find the link from an Oz journo.

                  • Molly

                    https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?ref=watch_permalink&v=229529329488872

                    Facebook link of whole event livestream.

                    Melbourne activist Amy Sargeant, posted pictures of themselves removing #LetWomenSpeak posters, and also posting their posters saying they were calling people to come and protest a Far-Right Rally.

                    Now, if I was a young Melbourne Neo-nazi wondering what to do on a Saturday arvo after getting my weekly head shave, it would be unlikely that I'd want to go somewhere to listen to a bunch of ladies (especially if one might be my mother) speaking.

                    But a notice about a far-right rally, and possibility of a stoush, I'd be in boots and all.

                    Think a bit deeper about WHY they turned up.

                    It wasn't for the women.

                    Link to poster removal tweet:
                    https://twitter.com/amy_sargeant_/status/1636655182238085121?s=20

                    I can’t find the poster that replaced it. Will add as reply if I do..

                    • Molly

                      Here's one, but not the one I'm thinking of which was a black background with lots of text on it and no picture of KJK.

                      But you may get the gist enough from this:

              • Shanreagh

                I was referring to the idea that it is very bad of women to want their own spaces and to not go along with the prevailing no debate orthodoxy. /sarc.

                If you think that women are wanting to be stubborn about not believing that transwomen are adult female human beings then you are putting us down as the 'enemy' to social progress, so-called.

                Also many women who are not GCF do not believe in men in women's loos…..severe yuck factor for many elderly women who may have all sorts of health problems prolapses etc that may involve adjustments that happen in & out of the cubicle not to want men there as well. Even toiletting with an female with a walker. women often bring their children into females toilets and stand outside with the door open while their children go. For safety/reassurance. Thye know nothing about men in loos and should be able to have their safe spaces still.

                It is GCF who have the words to describe what we are seeing in terms of women's studies. patriarchy but we're not the only ones concerned.

                The enemy is the no debate ideology has meant reasonable accommodations and commonsense arrangements have not been made.

                NZ has some protections for safe spaces but keeping these safe into the future is at the whim of the judicial system.

      • Anker 10.1.2

        It has been devastating to me to realize many left wing men (friends) the type that call themselves feminists have not supported gender critical feminists at all. The same has been the case with some of the men on this site.

        I have found right wing men more supportive of women speaking up about sports and their spaces. Who would have thought

        • Red Blooded One 10.1.2.1

          Perhaps LeftWing men are less likely to "other" people and try to embrace inclusiveness. For awhile now on this site we have seen a lot of conflating Trans people with men trying to do woman harm criminally or men with fetishes and that has done a disservice to the cause, in my humble opinion. It does not surprise me that you will see a lot of support from RightWing men. Any chance to punch down on "bottomfeeders" "ferals" "queers" "bludgers" "trans" would be welcomed by a proportion of them.

          • Phillip ure 10.1.2.1.1

            Wot red blooded one said…

          • Molly 10.1.2.1.2

            Not conflating.

            Men – who identify as women – INCLUDE men trying to do woman harm criminally or men with fetishes. Just as much as any other group of men have a statistical probability that it includes men trying to do woman harm criminally or men with fetishes.

            No one has provided evidence otherwise.

            The gender identity does not change the statistical probability.

            • Molly 10.1.2.1.2.1

              Consider this:

              Within my household I have four men whom I would trust to not assault any woman, make them a part of their exhibitionist fetish, or try to embarrass or distress them in any way. I can add to that cohort of men from my acquaintances till I have a group of 100 men.

              Despite my trust in those men, I do not want ANY of them to be in women's single-sex spaces.

              1. Because I don't have the right to consent for every other woman due to my personal trust assurances;
              2. Basic basic safeguarding risk assessment is based on statistical likelihood due to the sex category, not individual merit;
              3. It would demonstrate a disrespect for women's single-sex provisions that would immediately remove them from the trusted category completely.

              Men with gender identities remain in the same risk category as other men, which contains the good, the bad and the in-between.

            • Molly 10.1.2.1.2.2

              Another perspective from a transsexual:

              https://txtslady.blogspot.com/2021/03/my-transition-from-tra-to-terf.html?m=1

              "…I found myself going online and posting in opposition to “anti-trans” articles. Thing was, that in my view, most of the people leaving comments were also “anti-trans”. They called me a man, said I was delusional, a fetishist, and a danger to women. Since I knew that wasn’t true about myself or the other trans people I associated with, it was easy for me to write off anything else they said.

              The Slow Shift

              I’d anxiously waited out the result of a Bathroom Bill. It was defeated. Then word came about a bill in another state. This one wasn’t requiring that transgender people use the space intended for our sex, but it would make it illegal to expose opposite sex genitalia in a single-sex space. I thought this sounded very reasonable. One of the concerns that women had was about being exposed to male genitals. Weren’t we always saying that no transgender woman would ever expose her male genitals? This sounded like a great solution. Give women peace of mind and recourse if this happened, and since no transgender woman would do it anyway, no one is losing anything, right? When I expressed support for this bill, I was told that I was wrong and that this bill was very transphobic. I still don’t understand why.

              I started to notice a shift when I was in trans spaces. I would get a bit of a bristle when I referred to myself as a transsexual. While people didn’t come right out and attack my views, I realized that they would simply sit quietly and not engage. I’d become the “doddering old Aunt”, embarrassing but harmless just ignore her.

              Feeling I couldn’t speak my mind, I went looking for other places to talk about these issues. I found Twitter. On my first day, I was blocked by another transwoman for telling her that despite her claims, transwomen cannot have periods or even PMS as those are specific results of having a female reproductive system, which transwomen do not have. My next block came from a celebrity transwoman that claimed that because she was female and had a penis, that her penis was a female body part and therefore acceptable in female spaces..."

        • M 10.1.2.2

          "I have found right wing men more supportive of women speaking up about sports and their spaces. Who would have thought"

          Of course they would be – and you'll see a lot of men who believe in more traditional gender roles supporting terfs on anti-trans issues.

          • weka 10.1.2.2.1

            add to the mix that anti-terf left wing men won't condemn this violence aimed at gender critical women.

            https://terfisaslur.com/

            • M 10.1.2.2.1.1

              Nobody should condone violence, Weka. I was merely pointing out that it's fairly common to see 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' alliances during these sorts of things.

              Regarding the use of 'terf' – if it's offensive I'll refrain from using it. I'm assuming 'gender critical' is the preferred term?

    • Anker 10.2

      Great if you can make the event Shanreagh.

  10. M 11

    Thank you for a wonderful article, Micky.

    • Molly 11.1

      Yes, it is prime example of how to avoid open discussion by character assassination and performative declarations.

      Seems to be a popular playbook at the moment.

      • Anker 11.1.1

        wonderful Molly. Absolutely the case!

      • mickysavage 11.1.2

        I must admit that my tolerance of the hard right is low. And can you explain to me how I reply to the allegation that I have engaged in character assassination and performative declarations without actually explaining how?

        • Shanreagh 11.1.2.1

          I think if you read some of the posts on here and particularly on Weka's, these are answered.

          You 'assassinate' my character as one LW woman by continuing to spout the mantra that I, as a LW woman, do not support trans rights.

          This is not about hard right/left but about the ability of women as a biological group be be empowered by legislation and common practice to have and maintain safe spaces.

          Perhaps the reason that there are both left and right women speaking with similar voices is to do with the feeling/fact that solidarity on this issues transcends traditional politics.

          Over the years woman as a biological group have worked together on issues of concern

          For instance in the women's right to choose debate I worked with all sorts and the concern was was our right to choose what happened to our bodies, not men, not the church, not the states other than by providing safe access.

          There are women working around the world on issues such as the exploitation of children in factories, sex trafficking. We come at these issues as women not as a left or right wing people.

        • Anker 11.1.2.2

          "One particular female who was supported by nazis and members of the extreme right and who engages in the most extreme rhetoric against trans people I do consider to be the enemy"

          PP will speak to anyone who is interested in hearing about women's rights. That doesn't mean she supports their ideology.

      • M 11.1.3

        Molly, it seems oxymoronic to state that a public article posted on a forum that invites open discussion is framed as a "prime example of how to avoid open discussion".

        • mickysavage 11.1.3.1

          +1

        • Molly 11.1.3.2

          *…by character assassination and performative declarations."

          Both of which do not address the issue at hand.

          A Clayton's version of "open discussion" given that it contained nothing of the concerns of the person featured.

          • M 11.1.3.2.1

            Molly, I love that you used a Clayton's reference, even if it's inaccurately applied here.

            Also, character assassination requires that the recipient of said besmirchment actually have a good reputation to start with.

            • Molly 11.1.3.2.1.1

              The comments section is relied upon to introduce all the concerns raised by women at #LetWomenSpeak events. The discussion exists despite the original article which you praised, not because of it.

              "Also, character assassination requires that the recipient of said besmirchment actually have a good reputation to start with."

              And now I can see why you considered it "wonderful".

  11. Craig H 12

    As someone who used to have the delegation to decide whether section 16 of the Immigration Act applied to a person, the bar is high, even for the criminal test. To quote:

    No visa or entry permission may be granted, and no visa waiver may apply, to any person who—

    (a) the Minister has reason to believe—

    (i) is likely to commit an offence in New Zealand that is punishable by imprisonment; or

    (ii) is, or is likely to be, a threat or risk to security; or

    (iii) is, or is likely to be, a threat or risk to public order; or

    (iv) is, or is likely to be, a threat or risk to the public interest; or

    (b)is a member of a terrorist entity designated under the Terrorism Suppression Act 2002.

    A threat or risk to public order is really a risk that large-scale riots will happen as lawful protests and marches aren't threats or risks to public order.

    A threat or risk to the public interest is also a high bar because there's a competing interest in free speech, even when it is highly unpleasant speech.

  12. Joan of Arc 13

    What a shallow male-centric analysis. Women have the right to compete in their own sports on an even playing field, get undressed in their own changing rooms, and find physical safety in their own domestic violence shelters. People with penises, balls and high levels of testosterone make many women feel uncomfortable in those spaces, and we have the right to feel that way without being accused of 'hating' trans people, which is utter nonsense. I don't want men in my bathroom either, but I don't hate men. We don't need the permission of biological men to exercise our rights. Even if Carmel Sepuloni is fine with it, many other women are NOT. Lesbians have been harassed for not wanting to sleep with trans women, and I'm pretty sure you don't want to either Mickey. And for the record, that photo of PP was taken from a video where she is fiddling withe the zipper from her jersey. It was a complete accident that her fingers appear to be making a 'sign'. The fact that anti women's rights extremists – see! two can play at that game! – would go to such lengths to try and discredit her like that is quite revealing. Take your gaslighting nonsense elsewhere Mickey.

    • SPC 13.1

      Women have the right to compete in their own sports on an even playing field

      True. But New Zealand's self ID law does not seem to have compromised protection for women in sport here, and international sporting bodies are determining rules in ways that protect women.

      • Belladonna 13.1.1

        Selection of Laurel Hubbard for the Tokyo Olympics, clearly disadvantaged born women competing against a transwoman for selection to compete.

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/olympics/nz-olympic-team/125523731/tokyo-olympics-transgender-olympian-laurel-hubbards-journey-to-just-be-me

        Going through puberty as a male gives lifelong physical advantages (in the sporting sense), that no subsequent transition can completely cancel.

        We have no idea how Self-ID will play out at levels below international competition – since there has been little time since the law change.

        • SPC 13.1.1.1

          The Olympic rules allowed it in 2019 (pre self ID here).

          We sort of do know what will happen here

          1. International level sport rules are set according to fair competition. And thus national pathways to this level of sport will be related to this.
          2. The direction to local sports administration is to community level sport – it speaks to how any participation is to be managed (self ID as is this is current government policy society wide). It allows individual sports to determine its own rules with regard to player safety. And it does not make any sport funding conditional on allowing transgender players.

          Transgender athletes will be able to participate in sport in the gender they identify with, and will not need to “prove or … justify” their identity according to new guiding principles released by Sport New Zealand.

          The principles only apply to community level sport – not elite level sport – but it will be up to sports bodies to define where and how the trans athletes will participate.

          Sports bodies will not lose funding if they do not adopt the principles within their inclusion and diversity policies, and some organisations may have policies that reflect safety over inclusion, Sport New Zealand chief executive Raelene Castle said.

          https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/300757598/transgender-athletes-can-participate-in-community-sport-says-sport-nz

          • Belladonna 13.1.1.1.1

            So, an actual example of clear disadvantage doesn't count because it was before self-ID.

            Right. Little point in continuing the debate.

            • SPC 13.1.1.1.1.1

              What debate – your example as to 2019 was irrelevant to self ID here.

              International rules are set by international bodies. And that determines pathways set by national sports bodies.

              The impact of self ID here only applies to community sport – and each sport is allowed to determine its practice as to safety.

              • Belladonna

                What debate indeed.

              • Belladonna

                Your limitation of the risk of self-ID to the physical protection of women – leaves wide open the issue of a level playing field.

                How many women swimmers (as an example) will give up competition before they even get to the representative level, because they can't (physically) win against trans-women?

                How many teenage girls will give up competitive sport, because they are required to use the same changing rooms as self-ID trans-women (physically still male)?

                Or is that just unimportant collateral damage.

                I'm using swimming as an example, because there is no physical 'risk' to women competing against bigger, heavier, self-ID trans-women (unlike rugby, for example) – which would enable a club or a competition to exclude transwomen from women's competitions.

                In terms of Self-ID. No one knows how this will play out. Your rosy-glasses assumption that it will all be fine, is borne out by exactly zero evidence.

                • SPC

                  If international swimming does not include transgender women in their events, then the national pathways in New Zealand will not.

                  What about self ID only applies to community sport don’t you understand. And community sport is entitled to determine safety.

                  • Belladonna

                    What about safety is not the only issue, fairness is important as well – do you not understand.

                  • Belladonna

                    Gosh, it seems as though we have to go back to basics.

                    What is the reason we have women's sport in the first place?

                    It's because men have a biological advantage physically over women in most sports – everything which involves strength and stamina (I guess there probably isn't an advantage in tiddlywinks; but there is in just about everything else.

                    In order for women to be able to compete at all – they need to be in a separate category. This is not rocket science. It's why we have separate men's and women's swimming races, rugby matches and basketball games.

                    Allowing men who have gone through male puberty (whether or not they have subsequently transitioned medically, or just made a 'decision' under self-ID) – to compete in these women-only sporting categories, places biological women at a profound physical disadvantage in those competitions.

                    Now, either you disagree with one or more of the points above (in which case, please make your argument). Or you think that this just doesn't matter – presumably because trans rights are more important than women's rights.

                    • SPC

                      Once again, the rules for fair competition in international sport impact on the regime applied at national level within the sporting codes. So the chances of unfair competition will not exist – the case of Hubbard is likely to have been an outlier one (world athletics, swimming already known and et al – onto cycling and rowing etc)

                      Which is why self ID law is said to only have impact in community sport. And each community sport determines it's safety rules.

                  • Belladonna

                    Once again, you are ignoring fair competition at levels below international competition.
                    If it’s not ‘fair’ at the international level, how does it magically become ‘fair’ at the local level?

                    There is a reason that the local rugby club has a women's team, that the local swiming meets have women's races, etc.

                    If you're only advocating for 'friendly' non-competitive matches – that's one thing. But it doesn't seem as though you are.

                    The simple solution is to have men's, women's and open grades of sport. Women's limited to women who have gone through female puberty.

                    You seem to be willfully missing the point that I'm making: it's not all about safety, fairness matters, too.

                    Fairness matters just as much at the community level, as it does at the international level. Local women's rugby teams celebrate their winning season. Local women swimmers celebrate their gold medals.

                    • SPC

                      When you can identify an occasion of transgender women playing in women's sports teams in Enzed let me know.

                  • Belladonna

                    Well, in that case – since you're so convinced there will never be a trans-woman on a women's team – you'll have zero problems excluding them. After all. Since they don't want to join, it won't matter.

                    • SPC

                      International sport rules (fair competition) are not determined by governments. And it is those rules form the basis for how national sporting bodies organise pathways in their sports accordingly.

                      As far as I can determine, the only possibility of transgender women competing against women in events would occur if the international sport allowed it. That ends any chance of the sort of grifting now occurring in US college (scholarships) sport.

                      What's left is community sport. Self ID applies only in community sport. The governments direction here is that sports can exclude those who self ID on grounds of safety.

                      You seem to want a ban and pose the threat to women in sport from “unfair competition”. I would suspect that those who run sports (and there are some where there are mixed teams) will be influenced by their club members/players and of course their responsibilities – there is the well known case of 1985 – where the NZRFU was required to consider that.

                  • Belladonna

                    You seem to have forgotten:
                    A) Community sports are a pathway (even a very significant pathway) to professional/International sports. If girls and women repeatedly fail to win (because they are competing against trans-women) – then they will give up before they even get to representative level. Fair comeptition matters at community sport level. [This feels like the 10th time I've said this, only for you to continue to ignore it.]

                    B) The decision has been devolved onto local sporting bodies – which is a major cop out by the national bodies. Guess how they're going to react the first time they're slapped with a discrimination suit – funded by the trans movement.

                    C) If trans people don't want to participate in the competitions their birth sex/gender permits, nothing stops them from campaigning for open categories. And, indeed, many sporting bodies are establishing two categories of sport: Open, and, Women's (as in gone through puberty as a female). Why shouldn't that be the model that NZ sport follows?

                    • SPC

                      When, there is a case of unfair competition at club sport level in Enzed (impacting on someone's pathway), then it will become an issue for the sporting body.

                  • Belladonna

                    Great. Glad you (finally) agree that Women's sport is for women.

    • Terry 13.2

      Hey Joan, as a bloke, I do not want to share the toilet facilities at my workplace with women.

      My preference would be to have my personal “executive bathroom” at work, but alas I’m not that far up the corporate ladder.

      I think the only people who would want to share toilets with the other gender would be teenage boys, but I seriously doubt that your average teenage girl would be comfortable with that.

      • Belladonna 13.2.1

        The teenage girls will be given no voice in the matter. Schools are already imposing requirements for girls toilets and changing rooms to be open to self-ID trans-girls.

        The obvious answer (create self-contained unisex single-user toilet and change cubicles – for the use of trans-girls and anyone else who wants to use them) – is resisted on the grounds of cost, and the dislike of the trans-girls to be seen as different.

    • Anker 13.3

      Excellent Joan of Arc

      You can't be non binary after all (sarc)

  13. Jan Rivers 14

    This might be an interesting read in response to Micky.

    Why did three Green mps break almost every Green value to attack Keen-Minshull when their differences with her are political? The reason is "Trans women are women and 'no debate.'

    Inflammatory claims about being of the far right and racist while proferring easily rebutted claims ofworkimg with Nazis and a far right gesture? Really? This is utterly pathetic and points to the poverty of thinking. Parker is funded across political divides because the issues cross them.

    But when your opponents feel they have to accuse you of the most egregious sins of our times it is not just they who have lost. They are playing the most dangerous of games. Sowing unrest, creating misinformation, making some of us into non-people who are not worthy of respect.

    Micky's words -debating with Nazis – are defamatory but they also make violence become more likely.

    As a lesbian and almost lifelong member of the Labour Party I have met with many government departments asking them to plans around ñthe increasing societal fracture on this issue. But so far none are listening.

    https://www.publicgood.org.nz/2023/03/13/an-open-letter-about-green-party-mps-trying-to-prevent-advocacy-for-womens-rights/

    Women have legitimate claims for their hard fought for rights, for language to describe ourselves, to stop sterilising gay and lesbian kids and for a public sector not mired in ideology. That we aren't going away in the face of this week's media onslaught should say something. I wish Micky was listening.

    • Shanreagh 14.1

      Women have legitimate claims for their hard fought for rights, for language to describe ourselves, to stop sterilising gay and lesbian kids and for a public sector not mired in ideology. That we aren't going away in the face of this week's media onslaught should say something. I wish Micky was listening.

      So do I. Especially when women on TS have been trying to raise the issue for years now.

      Sad that he has raised every trope but not ever conceded that those advocating for Women's sex based rights have a point.

      It is not hard MS to support your left wing sisters…how about it!

  14. Stuart Munro 15

    It seems that "no debate" has not succeeded in keeping the issue under wraps, and the unfortunate alliance that pushed through gender self ID under the rose of a births deaths and marriages 'review' will receive the scrutiny their efforts deserve.

    Labour better pray the public don't punish them electorally.

    • SPC 15.1

      It had the support of all parties in parliament. And passed through all stages, with a SC public submission process.

      • Shanreagh 15.1.1

        This just means that all parties swallowed the dead rat of No Debate unthinkingly. Not that it was a rational move.

        Many would have been taken in on a fairness issue not realising that it had severe human rights issues for women.

        In the old phrase 'a snow job was done'.

      • Anker 15.1.2

        No politician would stand up against gender id because the onslaught would be brutal and end their career, e.g. the Liberal female politician who may be expelled from her party

        • Shanreagh 15.1.2.1

          Possibly though they could have made conditions on the recognition. I have no probs with Trans rights except that these rights should not be given at the expense of another marginalised group in society.

          We could have found middle ground.

          We could have led the world in careful, humane workable solutions. But no we just swallowed the dead rat and said OK what next?

    • Shanreagh 15.2

      Labour better pray the public don't punish them electorally.

      Agree. I think the stage is set for some party to do this though perhaps the saving grace is that many of them are so unseeing of the issues that they won't cotton on to the possibility.

      This election was to be about Climate Change.

    • Anker 15.3

      Well this women is punishing Labour electorally and I am not alone

      • Shanreagh 15.3.1

        I am still watching though the Greens are goneburger with me, because of my understanding that the dead rat/No debate was a coalition requirement from the Greens to Labour. For some years I had given them my party vote.

        Labour I will keep an eye on, it needs to talk climate change: big and now.

        It also needs to commit to 3 Waters.

  15. tsmithfield 16

    I think those of us who are male need to be very careful in trying to tell females what is or isn't OK for them.

    For what it is worth, it seems to me the answer is very simple:

    Trans people (Male to female) should have the right to be treated as females so long as it does not result in biological females being treated unfairly or made to feel unsafe.

    That fact is now being recognised in many sports for instance, where it is recognised that males who transitioned towards becoming female after puberty have substantial physical advantages over biological women that means biological women are unable to compete, or are put in physical danger.

    So far as changing rooms etc go, it seems to me that trans people should not be able to enter those spaces unless they have become physically indistinguishable from biological females. Why should biological females have to put up with someone flopping out their dork in a female changing space? I imagine many women would feel very uncomfortable or threatened by that.

    And, if that is allowed, it leaves it open to any male pervert to claim themselves as identifying as female to justify going into those spaces.

    But if a trans person has had all the the necessary operations to become physically female in appearance, I don't really see a problem. They should be able to go where they want and be put into a female prison if they want.

    However I am just saying this from a position of male rationalisation. So, I am open to the views of how actual women feel about this.

    • Anker 16.1

      Thanks Tsmithfield. Your open to a discussion. What a difference it would have made if Labour and the Greens had have been. From what you have proposed we could have worked from there, looked at pros and cons etc.

      But no. Blokes like Grant Robertson saying it was petty and small minded that women would object to trans women in sports. That told me for him men come first

      • tsmithfield 16.1.1

        This is a weird area where it looks like you will get more support from right wing males than left wing ones by the looks.

        For instance, flick over to kiwiblog and read the post that DPF has put up on this.

        • Shanreagh 16.1.1.1

          Yes my friend Tsmithfield.

          RW/conservative seems to understand the issue. They did get it even before it has erupted this time.

          I am not so naive to think that it may in fact be driven by innate conservatism/church membership.

          Though in some places it has been decried on clash of rights grounds & the argument I have that you don't give civil/human rights to one group by taking them away from another. I have advanced this argument over the years in the Israel/Palestine situation.

          There is something inherently faulty with the logic that says that this is the way to do it.

          It is as if there are only a limited number of human rights in the world and is reflected in the aridity of thinking we are confronted with here.

          If we had been careful & willing we could have crafted something to do good by both sets.

        • Shanreagh 16.1.1.2

          I have read that post tsmithfield.

          I wish I had seen it on The Standard. It would have restored my faith in humanity and that somebody somewhere gets it, writes about it, criticises the media hacks who interview each other.

          It is clear that the trans community is building this into a moral panic. I am sure there will be violence, over the next two afternoons and equally sure it won't come from the group of women listening to speakers.

          Anti women Twitter commentators have been telling everyone not to give in to the urge to be violent, posited that even if there are Nazis should they be beaten up? and other similar 'philosophical' illogical thoughts.

          I won't link to it but would urge people who want to read a clear eyed, non political article to go over to Kiwiblog. It is called

          Guest Post: Posie Parker and the Week the Media Lost Its Collective Mind

    • mickysavage 16.2

      Trans people (Male to female) should have the right to be treated as females so long as it does not result in biological females being treated unfairly or made to feel unsafe.

      That is a good start to what needs to be a nuanced debate. Having someone with a right wing funded megaphone declare that trans people have no rights and are pedophiles and their movement is being funded by shadowy billionaires is not the right way to have this debate.

      • weka 16.2.1

        KJK exists because Stonewall UK started No Debate and liberals took it up and enforced it. Women and men, including often on the left, lost their jobs, careers, social connections, and were subjected to doxing, malicious police reporting, violent rhetoric and abuse when they stood up and said, hang on a minute, we support trans people and we'd like to talk about women's sex based rights and the protection of children. Many more people have been afraid to speak. It's not hard to see how a charismatic, centrist populist, with not as much to lose would fill the vacuum that No Debate left.

        If you want nuanced debate, there are still plenty of progressive gender critical people around who are willing to do that. But the more things like yesterday happen, the more likely people are to turn from GC to anti-trans. I see this happening all the time in the wider international movements. If you make women choose they will choose their own rights first. And most people are supportive of trans human rights, but they draw a line at women's spaces, sports, and transitioning kids. As they start to realise what is going on, we need the nuanced debate to be led by progressives not conservatives.

        • Shanreagh 16.2.1.1

          Yes Weka, that sets it out clearly.

          MS are you able to carefully unpick your concerns with what Weka has stated?

          As she says:

          If you make women choose they will choose their own rights first.

          To understand this though it is useful to realise that many women don't see this as political, they see it as overarching the political dimension. By casting it solely as a black & white or left & right issue you miss the point.

          My sense of self, and my sense of safe and caring self comes before my LW self.

          I think Labour is teetering, the joys of working on a wrapped up climate change package will be overtaken if we feel we have to fight, yet again, for women's based concerns.

          Many will go with a party that recognises these or just not vote. Either way it will be disastrous to people of the political left.

          • weka 16.2.1.1.1

            To understand this though it is useful to realise that many women don't see this as political, they see it as overarching the political dimension. By casting it solely as a black & white or left & right issue you miss the point.

            My sense of self, and my sense of safe and caring self comes before my LW self

            That is a superb observation, thank-you, I hadn't been able to put it into words yet. And it applies to the concerns about children too, for mothers it's innate, beyond politics. That's the thing about biological reality and growing another human inside your body.

            I have concerns about the impact on the election as well. Hopefully it will settle down and won't become a big issue, but the issue is still there, so it's only a delay really.

          • weka 16.2.1.1.2

            would you be ok if I quoted you in a post?

        • RedLogix 16.2.1.2

          KJK exists because Stonewall UK started No Debate and liberals took it up and enforced it. Women and men, including often on the left, lost their jobs, careers, social connections, and were subjected to doxing, malicious police reporting, violent rhetoric and abuse when they stood up and said, hang on a minute, we support trans people and we'd like to talk about women's sex based rights and the protection of children. Many more people have been afraid to speak. It's not hard to see how a charismatic, centrist populist, with not as much to lose would fill the vacuum that No Debate left.

          Is there anyone else here spotting the obvious parallels with that other big debate that we have had in this country this past few years? The one associated with the mass medical experiment and a protest at Parliament.

          Just to be clear – I am not intending any kind of point scoring 'gotcha' here – but an honest invitation to reflect that if we do not support the right to debate and protest for those we disagree with – we don't believe in the right at all.

          • Molly 16.2.1.2.1

            Short answer – yes.

            Longer answer – and with anything to do with policy changes claiming non-debatable "inclusion" of Māori in governance, education and selective policy implementation.

      • Molly 16.2.2

        Women who have been concerned for a while, do the research.

        Jennifer Bilek is the go-to for work on individual funding.

        https://www.tabletmag.com/contributors/jennifer-bilek

        Kit Kowalski on the funding apparatus of ACON in Australia.

        https://www.binary.org.au/your_taxpayer_dollars_are_funding_transgender_propaganda

        Others have worked on following the funding of other advocacy groups.

    • Michael P 16.3

      I agree with pretty much everything you say tsmithfield, the only issue I have with regards to your post is where you state "…..have the right to be treated as females".

      Not sure what you mean by that? Firstly, how do/should we treat females any differently than we treat males aside from the exceptions you've stated in regards to female sex based rights and sports (fairness)

      Secondly if you mean they have the right for everyone to pretend they are female then i'm sorry i disagree. They aren't female so why should anyone be forced to pretend otherwise? Most people me included will undoubtedly happily be polite and call trans women whatever they wish to be called and refer to them as she/her, etc because they don't want to hurt anyones feelings, etc. However nobody has the "right" to force others to lie or pretend biological sex isn't a thing if they don't wish to do so.

  16. Thinker 17

    Going back to the subject of the article, Posie Parker, I've scrolled up and down this article and been looking at other media articles but I still can't find out who is funding her to come here. Do we know?

    Surely, this is an opportunity for those anti-privacy laws that John Key felt so strongly about passing to do some good for this country and find out.

    Don't get me wrong – I appreciate the seriousness and divisiveness of Parker's visit but, to me, the bigger issue is who is funding her to come here. Reason is that Parker will come and Parker will go, but whoever is funding her will still be here and will still have the same ideology and apparent desire to divide this country and fund further opportunities for the hate groups to have their day.

    I'm not gay or transgender – in fact, I struggle to keep up with all the different 'rainbow' definitions and what they mean, so as not to offend anyone – but ever since I was introduced to Pastor Niemoller's post-WW2 poem, it impressed me to the need for the many to stand up for the rights of the few. Given the links between Parker and neo-Nazis, it's probably worth repeating Niemoller's poem here:

    First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a socialist.
    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a trade unionist.
    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew.
    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

    • Shanreagh 17.1

      Christian fundamentalists I think.

      We have quite enough anti women people here in NZ to keep the pro women lobby busy.

      Niemoller's poem applies to women trying to maintain our sex based rights as much as it does for others.

    • Anker 17.2

      I've funded Kelly Jean! Well that is true to an extent. All that money I threw away on a party that has betrayed women goes to her.

      Kelly Jean posted a video link very recently calling on her supporters to donate as she now faces a $10,000 bill for security (the likes of Birthright putting a bereavement notice up on their website might make you want to up your security).

      So if you want to donate Thinker, I am very happy to send you the link.

      These who funds her questions are just another distraction from the debate

    • Anker 17.3

      First they came for your language (chest feeder, menstuating) and I did not speak out, because I know longer menstruate or breast feed. Then they came for my sports category and I did not speak out (because I no longer play sports) then they came for my free speech and there was no one left to speak for me.

      No I am getting in early here. That's why I am going to let women speak

    • Visubversa 17.4

      They came for lesbians a long time ago. No-one spoke up for us except us.

      Lesbian bars closed. Lesbian clubs went back underground as they were in the 1970's. The organisations that we had supported and funded for decades turned against us. The head of Stonewall in the UK called us "sexual racists" live on BBC TV. Stonewall's "diversity" specialist giving evidence in a British Court of law against a case brought by a lesbian woman of colour who was discriminated against by her Chambers because of her views, compared lesbians who were not interested in sexual relations with men who demand to be called women to white South Africans trying to hold on to their privileges after the fall of apartheid.

      The Tasmanian Human Rights Commissioner decided that lesbians could not hold any sort of publicly advertised meeting or function without being required to admit any man who opened his mouth and said the magic words "I identify as".

      Publications about "Lesbian Sex" now include sizeable proportions of their content on what to do with a penis and avoiding pregnancy or sexually transmitted diseases from sex with someone with a penis.

      We are treated (and it is hard to write this so close to breakfast time) to polemics explaining to us that the mouthfeel of the "feminine penis" is different to "some other sort".

      And we are not allowed to say that lesbians don't have penises. Even straight women like PP are not allowed to say that lesbians don't have penises.

      Why this focus on lesbians you might ask? Because these days, the loudest and most demanding voices in the so called "Trans Rights Movement" are straight men. Men who are sexually attracted to women. Men with a paraphilia who are sexually aroused by the thought of themselves as a woman. Men who are driven – as with all fetishes – to greater and greater stimulation. And one of the most "validating" things they can imagine – the most indicative of them "being a woman" is to persuade some lesbian to have sex with them.

  17. About KJK's "white supremacist symbol". The rest of the arguments in this post are similarly slanted, weak, or out of context.

    https://twitter.com/DavisAndrew88/status/1638230793922449408?s=20

    There is a balance to be struck between empathy for people suffering dysphoria, and requiring women to participate in a pantomime without their consent.

    A sensible liberal approach would try and take the emotions and anger out of the issue, not stoke them and make it worse with lurid rumours and calumny. Address the weaknesses of KJK's actual arguments, instead of going straight for a character assassination which is largely based on fiction.

    There are hurt feelings and vulnerable people on both sides of this issue. Instead of telling women to shut up and behaving like an irrational mob, the activist left would do well to treat *all* fellow humans with respect, not just their special rainbow friends.

    I for one am disgusted by the groupthink, moral panic, and constant disrespect for boundaries that characterises the radical TRA movement. Given that recent polls show support for protecting women's spaces at about 60% of the population, this is a big vote loser and turn off for the neoliberal "woke" left.

    Have a thought for the significant % of women traumatised by male violence, who need single-sex services. Or people whom for religious reasons requires single-sex spaces at the gym or a swimming pool. But now that is taken away from them. No more gym or swimming. Or the dozens, perhaps hundreds of cases of female athletes being shunted out of their sports by intact males who retain most of their physiological advantage. A lifetime of training and dedication stolen by a mediocre man. Similar for women's scholarships, achievement awards. It seems every event for women has to centre non women nowadays.

    It's not just about toilets. Queer theory is a strange ideology (weaponised by social media) that is infecting a whole generation with delusional thinking about what a human is, and setting them on a destructive life path.

    • Visubversa 18.1

      Great comment roblogic. Especially the last paragraph.

      I worry about gay and lesbian kids. Gay Liberation told young gay and lesbian people that they were fabulous. That they did not need to do a thing – well maybe get a better haircut – but that they could just accept and be proud of who and what they are.

      The Transcult tells young gay and lesbian people – and young neurodivergent people that their bodies are wrong. It tells them that they need "off brand" drugs and surgery to be happy. "Off brand" means that the drugs have not gone through the required safely and efficacy processes for that particular use. They have for other uses, but not for that one.

      Oddly enough – for the grown men (mainly) who push this ideology, drugs and surgery are optional and the vast majority have neither. They need the existence of "trans kids" to legitimise their ideology.

  18. Anker 19
    • Marvellous comment Roblogic
  19. Psycho Milt 20

    The event is called Let Women Speak. It does exactly that and only that. And yet you title your post about it "Debating with Nazis" and include in it a blatant propaganda lie about Kellie-Jay Keen supposedly making a white supremacist hand signal. Did you imagine such a dishonest, sexist and antagonistic approach might contribute something useful to a debate? I find it really hard to be polite in response to commentary like this.

  20. Anker 21

    I look forward to Carmel Sepulosi speaking out against the assault on a women

    • Shanreagh 21.1

      She could start by condemning the mob who punched one of the women with KJM, a 70 year old who I gather was going to speak. She has a black eye.

      That is really great behaviour.

      Anyone want to run a book on how long it will be before someone in the Govt condemns who ever this was?

      Let Women Speak!

  21. Anker 22

    Hope you are happy now Mickey

    • Shanreagh 22.1

      I mean, no-one could have foreseen this could they?

      I am experiencing extreme & utter cynicism at the poor showing of LW men

      Where are you MS?

      In terms of looking at what is happening.

      If a whole bunch of women could have foreseen that the Police would not protect, would maintain incompetent policing/crowd control, that politicians (Wood/Robertson etc) had spurred on anti responses, standing back and delivering KJM to a mob, why couldn't you?

      We saw incompetent policing in Hobart etc. All we wanted here in NZ was for them to do better than that. So that Women could speak.

      Apart from over reading stupid tweets about so-called signs and the like of violent trans activists your post is reactionary not forward thinking.

      I am so sad.

      • Incognito 22.1.1

        There is a potentially much larger trans affirming rally counter protest tomorrow which I can’t make because I will be out of the country. [my italics]

        • Shanreagh 22.1.1.1

          Incognito I did not mean in a literal sense. I knew he was out of the country he said so in his opening.

          I meant

          Where are you terms of political analysis and getting a grip on women's issues'

      • RedLogix 22.1.2

        I am experiencing extreme & utter cynicism at the poor showing of LW men

        Well some of us who did, got gaslit because we did not tick all the required anti-patriarchal purity boxes. Since then I have confined myself to the margins of this debate – but for the record, I have consistently and firmly supported the once boringly conventional idea that biological sex is real, and important in many contexts physical and social.

        I don't have a lot to add, because all the detail and nuance of the debate is better expressed by others far more familiar with it. It seems safer handling the nuclear waste topic devil

        • pat 22.1.2.1

          "It seems safer handling the nuclear waste topic devil"

          and thats saying something

        • Molly 22.1.2.2

          "I have consistently and firmly supported the once boringly conventional idea that biological sex is real, and important in many contexts physical and social."

          Well, when you're ready. Come back in… the water's warm…

        • Shanreagh 22.1.2.3

          I have consistently and firmly supported the once boringly conventional idea that biological sex is real, and important in many contexts physical and social.

          Thanks Red.

          Some of us do see this emergence of a movement that has, or seems to have at its heart a distain or lack of recognition for women's issues as another manifestation of the patriarchy and its power. As an old stager from the 1970s feminist where the sexism was overt and to a degree easier to spot this is my starting point for analysis.

          It comes I guess from having a mother who was a professional whose help & support to run an accountancy office during WW11 was met with cries 'Shouldn't you be at home looking after your husband' once 'the boys came home'.

          It took a great deal of determination for her to keep working, after marriage, as both salaries were needed as they were buying their first home and setting up the accountancy business.

          Anti women sentiment has gone underground to a degree.

          As I said my analysis is patriarchy based and that is why I can see that people from Left or Right can be complicit in denying Women's rights.

  22. Sanctuary 23

    From the meda reports it looks like yet another complete failure of the police to maintain public order, a worrying trend where lawless mobs are basically able to take over public spaces and do as they please with impunity. All fun and games until two mobs clash and the breakdown of order leads to a riot and – God forbid – death(s).

    • SPC 23.1

      It looks like a difficult venue to manage if the barriers used are not effective.

      • Sanctuary 23.1.1

        The parliament occupation should have been cleared by fully equipped riot police within 72 hours, and this riot needed to have appropriately equipped police immediately available as well.

        The police seem to be continually surprised at every turn by bad faith mob behavior in relation to culture war anger, and it needs to be addressed.

      • Psycho Milt 23.1.2

        The police have a lot of options open to them, including saying "It looks difficult to keep you separated from protesters at the site you've nominated, this spot looks more manageable." Of course, you don't need to even consider options if you're planning not to bother policing the event at all.

      • Shanreagh 23.1.3

        It looks like a difficult venue to manage if the barriers used are not effective.

        And especially so if the police do not exercise competent policing.

        Where were the separate Police placed around the band rotunda that could keep crowds back, where was the control of the media who should have been in the area beyond the police ie on the crowd side of the police.

        KJM was continually asking 'where are the police?', we finally saw them as they let her into a waiting Police car at the entry.

        I think they need to have some sort of enquiry into this.

  23. Corey 24

    When will the left get a grip and stop making nobodies famous by getting outraged and giving them free publicity

    When that right wing duo Stefan and Lauren came to NZ , noone had ever heard of them until the left in this country from grass roots right up to the PM were condemning them and the mayor of Auckland canceling contracts with them, suddenly everyone knew who they were and had the left ignored them they'd be nobodies.

    When the left went all in on them, Act became seen as the party of free speech and went from 0.5% to 7% and are now polling at 10-14%

    What are Act going to be polling at after seeing this left wing mob today? A lot more.

    Why can't cis women speak about this stuff ? Why is it a big deal? Why can't these 200 people go see her speak? Why do left wing and right wing men and the LGBT+ have to scream over women who may have some concerns?

    The amount of gaslighting Ive seen from men on the left towards women who have some concerns is crazy.

    Nazis are scum, Nazis at this rally were scum but how sad is it when the left has to say "actual Nazis" because the left has overused that word so much in the last 7 years that it's meaningless and often just means person I disagree with… Crazy ..

    I don't agree with this person I think she's a professional troll and a grifter making money on the concerns many women have that aren't being addressed and many women are afraid to say anything because if you don't agree 100% on every issue you're considered a bigot.

    Why have we only seen people condemning the speech and not being shown the actual speech? Most people condemning it I guarantee have no idea what is being said , would will be said or what will be said other than some said this events bad so let's cancel it.

    Lastly, the call from the left for this woman and her attendees to condemn people who latched on to this event is beyond hypocritical.

    I have been to many left wing rallies and protests and seen hanger oners chant grotesque antisemitic shit, I've seen effigies of politicians with ropes around their necks , signs calling for public executions of right wing politicians, vile shit from communists and tankies , left wing conspiracy theorists and all manner of scum looking for a fight.

    We on the left never have to condemn the minority of extremists who try to coopt our protests and rallies because the scum is always in the minority and unrepresentative of the protest, why the left thinks anyone attending something called let women speak needs to condemn men who are trying to coopt the event is pure hypocritical bullshit.

    The left would not like it if media started reporting on left wing event by reporting only on the most radical and toxic elements at our rallies and lumped us in with them, so be very careful when using those tactics to attack people you disagree with less you get attacked the same way.

    • SPC 24.1

      When will the left get a grip and stop making nobodies famous by getting outraged and giving them free publicity

      Sort of. There is the factor of a small nation having a new story to cover (an activist on a world tour) and it's covered in a wide range of media in a short period of time – and some of it was influenced by the images from Melbourne.

  24. Tabletennis 25

    Rosie Parker assaulted by the TRAliban

    Media release by Speak up for Women: 25 March 2023

    [unlinked quote deleted]

    • Anker 25.1

      f…..k. re the Greens.

      I am going to vote Act cause David Seymour has come out and condemed what happened today. I think a vote for Te Pati Maori is a vote for Labour and Greens.

      I know many will say to me that Act isn't for the working class etc, etc, . At least they are honest about it.

      Labour…..child poverty. Its got worse

      • The Fairy Godmother 25.1.1

        Im tossing up between Act and National and I have been an active Labour member for rmost of my life. We cannot have a government which includes the toxic greens or their labour enablers.

        • observer 25.1.1.1

          Of course you can vote for whoever you want. But don't pretend you don't know what a National/ACT government will do.

          The greatest victims will be at the bottom of the pile, and that always means women, in disproportionate numbers. Benefits cut, wages cut, unemployment up (as a goal, not an accident), health and education cuts, and so much more. Not to mention the future of the planet, your children and grandchildren.

          If you think that matters less than some attention-seeker from Britain, whose commitment to the welfare of NZ's poorest is zero, then fine, go ahead.

          But when it happens, never pretend you didn't know what National/ACT would do. You know.

          • tsmithfield 25.1.1.1.1

            For all the faults you may see with NACT from a left wing perspective, one thing I think is sure is that they will pay a lot more attention to women's rights than the left wing parties seem to be doing at the moment.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 25.1.1.1.1.1

              "One thing I think is sure is that" "the left wing parties" have "a lot more" women MPs "at the moment": 45 (Labour/Green) plays 15 (NAct).

              New Zealand Parliament celebrates majority women MPs
              [23 November 2022]

              • tsmithfield

                So, if that is the case, then why is there not a lot more support for biological women from the left?

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  So, if that is the case…

                  It is the case – 45 (Labour/Green) women MPs vs 15 (NAct).

                  …then why is there not a lot more support for biological women from the left?

                  Many/most/all of the (relatively large number of) "biological women" MPs from the left may genuinely believe that they do support "biological women". Pure speculation on my part, of course – you'd have to ask them.

                  Fwiw, recent comments on TS suggest (to me) that there will be fewer women in Aotearoa NZ's parliament after the October general election. In my view this would be disappointing and regressive. Could be something of a minority view around these parts right now – maybe it always was.

                  Feelings are running high. Ardern will be relieved she's not navigating Labour through this spiralling gender-critical "war" of words. Be kind.

                  • Incognito

                    The Green Party constitution no longer requires a male co-leader, instead requiring one woman and one person of any gender, plus a requirement that one must be Māori.

                    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/466386/green-party-leaders-proud-of-constitution-changes

                    Actions speak louder than words.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      Actions speak louder than words.

                      yes One only has to look (Should’ve gone to Specsavers).

                      I'll be party-voting Green in October – does that make me a chauvinist? Trump would be proud.

                    • Incognito []

                      Let’s say this: on balance, I still (!) feel way more at home with the so-called left political parties in NZ than with the parties of misogynist ponytail-pullers, pimps and the likes. It is not so much the personalities involved but more the values & principles they embody.

                      When people fuck up, as I have done many times and will do many more times still, inevitably, it seems, their values & principles guide them back and ground them. It is a yoyo (up & down) rather than a pendulum (left to right) but there always is the ground state, if you know what I mean.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      It is a yoyo (up & down) rather than a pendulum (left to right) but there always is the ground state, if you know what I mean.

                      Thanks Incog for that helpful framework to think about [individual?] values and principles. In 2007, I ‘penned’ this in response to an education Prof's concerns about a paucity of male graduate teachers for younger children. Was thinking 'society's pendulum' then.

                      Use of CoE graduation figures to support the formation of a [gender] Balance Committee is deliberately selective. Figures for BEng and BInfSc graduates are similarly 'worrying'. Fifty years ago teaching and nursing were the ONLY socially acceptable professions for women.

                      I support the goals of GIRLS (and boys) CAN DO ANYTHING campaigns to counteract stereotypes, and the goals of women/Maori et al. committees to promote equal opportunity and freedom of choice. As a pakeha male I have always enjoyed (on average) more opportunity and freedom of choice than anyone else in NZ. Necessarily, opportunity and freedom of choice are improving for women and Maori, but by almost any practical measure of outcomes I still have (on average) the upper hand. Is this the 'balance' that some wish to maintain? [I apologise if this question offends, but a reality check is warranted – "In almost all rich countries the economic and social position of women still has a long way to improve to reach that of men."]

                      Eighteen years ago Sylvia Cartwright became the first female Chief District Court judge in NZ; fourteen years ago she was the first woman to be appointed to the High Court of NZ. Five years ago Eddie Durie was the first Maori High Court judge. Judith Kinnear is NZ's first woman VC. In such roles it is not a simple nor an easy thing to be first. Old habits die hard.

                      In terms of general outcomes the pendulum is still well short of the halfway point in its first swing. But maybe we should ask the gorgeous workers at the Tui brewery, or perhaps the BK burger girls?

                      Twas a different time – some progress has been made, and there's a fair way to go yet, imho.

                      Alcohol Adverts: An Analysis [PDF; page 10 of 14]
                      In “Tui River‟, one of the Tui television advertisements, three panting men make their way into the Tui brewery staffed only by “gorgeous women‟. Ignoring the scantily clad females, the men break into the inner sanctum of the brewery and stare at the phallic-like bottle of beer to the soundtrack of “oohhh… feel the love‟. In another advertisement from the same series, “Brucetta‟, the male characters dress as women to attempt to avoid detection inside the female-only brewery. Surrendering to “temptation‟ and drinking from the bottles on the conveyer belt, one worker is dismissed, while his colleague – “Brucetta‟ – hides from the female supervisor in the communal shower room surrounded by showering female employees.

                    • Francesca

                      Ah yes, Incognito, re :GP constitution
                      but can that woman be a transwoman?

                      Because ..as the mantra goes, and according to Green party doctrine, "transwomen are women "

                    • Incognito []

                      Do you have poor reading comprehension or are you philosophising?

                      I looked for the alleged doctrine, unsuccessfully. However, there’s plenty on relevant policy areas such as women’s rights:

                      https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=green+party+women%27s+rights&cr=countryNZ

                      And on non-violence:

                      https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=green+party+non+violence&cr=countryNZ

                • Belladonna

                  TBH – I'd say fear.
                  It's been made very clear to women that speaking out for the protection of women's rights will have negative consequences – both professionally and politically. The cancel culture is real.
                  Of course, some (including apparently Marama Davidson) appear to have been totally co-opted by the trans-rights crowd.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    Fear (of negative consequences) is a powerful inhibitor of non-conforming behaviours, e.g. fear of parental and peer group reactions to ‘coming out’ remains painfully real for some even now, here in NZ.

                    Shaneel Lal: Johnstone coming out helps an entire generation of queer people [5 February 2023]

                    Factors that can militate against conformity may include elevated financial and/or social status, a 'social conscience/consciousness', education, ego, alcohol, and (societal tolerance of) diversity.

                    I’m too much of a conformist to fully endorse all the actions of the many Kiwis who ‘cancelled’ Keen-Minshull’s Auckland address, but I was (pleasantly) surprised by the number of people who turned out in Wellington today (Sunday) – nothing to fear?

                    Appealing to fear: A Meta-Analysis of Fear Appeal Effectiveness and Theories [November 2015]

                    • Shanreagh

                      I don't know that any of the women who were going to testify or talk to other women who went to the Wellington events after PP attendance was cancelled. What would have been the point? A free dose of violence if you'd dared to take placard saying any of the 'witch' phrases we women are known for.

                      'Parker is a new kind of witch, one who willingly submits herself to a witch-trial, so that the rest of us might see just how dogmatic and unforgiving the new witch-hunters are.'

                      https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-shameful-persecution-of-posie-parker-in-new-zealand/

                      I'm pleased that the trans activists had a lovely day out. (extreme /sarc.)
                      I for one felt as I did the day the Springboks & the NZ Govt brought the game to Wellington, alone & adrift and with the feeling my country had left me.

                      I felt also as I did when watching the underarm bowling incident, 'OMG they are not really going to do this' as the crowds sized up PP, the flimsy barriers and made a rush to silence her.

                      I am sad that their intolerance & deliberate misunderstanding of the issues, meant that those who wanted to hear and be part of what PP had to say no longer had that choice,

                      Remembering it was the Women’s issues people who had wanted to meet, not the Trans activists. The TAs were not gate crashed by the Women’s issues people in AKL. It was the other way round.
                      So I’m not sure who you are meaning with your fear comment. PP says she feared for her life in AKL, as a misstep could have been fatal. On the way out there were people climbing over the top of her security staff to get at her. You can see the staff making sure she was kept upright by close guarding, with no help from the Police, until she got to the exit……let us be clear on this. .

            • woodart 25.1.1.1.1.2

              if you believe that, Ive got some beachfront land to sell you, viewing at low tide. nosey parker is funded by religeous right wingers ,who are the sourse of much misogyny, to deliberatley cause mayhem. do some background digging.

              • Belladonna

                Perhaps to save us the time, you could do the digging and post the unbiased links that you've clearly found. Yanno. Following TS policy.

                In any case, women from the religious right (or funded by the religious right – assuming your assertion is true) also have the right to speak.

                You don't get to decide that only people you agree with can talk.

            • weka 25.1.1.1.1.3

              For all the faults you may see with NACT from a left wing perspective, one thing I think is sure is that they will pay a lot more attention to women's rights than the left wing parties seem to be doing at the moment.

              Nope. Women's rights covers a wide range of things, and policy for policy, the left is nearly always better for women than the right.

              On GC issues for women, what is Nat or ACT's position on self-ID?

            • Incognito 25.1.1.1.1.4

              Nah, allegedly standing up for personal freedoms, particularly freedom of speech, does not necessarily imply committing to any specific cause. Taking to extreme (reductio ad absurdum), it leads to the post-modern anarchy of nihilism. A case in point was former ACT Leader Jamie Whyte and his philosophising musings about incest – you can talk (fantasise?) about it as much as you want but it doesn’t mean that you can or should do it.

              https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/9776398/The-secret-diary-of-Jamie-Whyte

        • Anker 25.1.1.2

          Same TFG.

          No point in voting for any of the parties on the left. We have to get rid of this govt

      • miravox 25.1.2

        Except they're not honest about anything. Have you seen their MPs? There's a reason they've been told to stay quiet. Seymour has no stance on social issues, he just sees the way the wind is blowing and goes with that. I doubt any of them can keep up.

        You'd rather have people destitute and a dead planet?

      • Thinker 25.1.3

        I've got friends who react the same way.

        Vote for who you like, but remember the potential for clever, nay, sly parties to say things that will gather people around them who forget that, underneath the rhetoric, are policies that may be totally at odds with the core beliefs of the people who listen to the populist vox-pops.

        Voting for ACT because you like what they said about Posie Parker is to mandate a government that (I'm quick-trawling their website):

        1. Appears to let businesses hire who they like from offshore (one of the impacts likely to make kiwi jobs less secure and their job conditions less negotiable);

        2. Referring 30% absenteeism from school to the Police. (Instead of finding the root cause of the absenteeism, let's just set them up to be crims);

        3. Use Cyclone Gabrielle as an excuse to remove aspects of council consenting, RMA, EQC;

        4. Exempt OECD countries from the Overseas Investment Act review;

        5. Reinstating the "Three Strikes" rules;

        6. Removing the opportunity for Parole to prisoners with reading and writing challenges;

        7. Pay "Good Teachers" more (who decides – who has to sleep with whom?)

        8. semi-privatise all SOEs

        9. Remove the top-tier tax rate

        10. Increase the defence budget

        11. Reintroduce 90-day job trials

        12. Put a moratorium on minimum wage increases

        13. And so on…

        I get that everyone who's sending blogs like this is screaming their frustration at the limited potential of left-wing parties. I share that feeling. Even Winston Peters, when the election outcome looked predictable, indicated he would not go with Labour, but now is ambivalent (according to stuff.co.nz). In my opinion, this is a reaction to watching the polls rather than a thought-out policy stance. Hence, I'm left wondering why I would vote for Peters only to risk him guessing which party I would have gone with and make the same decision.

        I can't think of any party I want to vote FOR, so I'm down to choosing which party policies I like the least and then casting my vote to keep that party out, which is not really what the spirit of a true democracy is all about.

    • Incognito 25.2

      When you quote, you must provide a link.

  25. RP Mcmurphy 26

    nazis dont debate. they use words they wont define and shout everybody else down.

  26. Mike the Lefty 27

    I'm not going to debate with people here about Nazism.

    What I say is that this person thrives on turning people against each other, thrives on mistrust and hatred of anyone who she thinks is "different" and is a magnet for drawing out others with similar views.

    Egotistic shit stirrers like her should never be welcome in this country and hiding behind the facade of "free speech" is no excuse.

    She has been sent back to her kennel with her tail between her legs.

    Good job!

    • woodart 27.1

      totally agree with you mike. unfortunatley some on this board (and some out in the real world) are so easy to manipulate. they dont realise that nosey parker is funded by male dominated religions to seed chaos. who do they think fund cpac's? who directley fund nosey parker.if parker and her shadowy backers were really interested in the plight of women, they would be attacking the institutionalised misogyny in organised religion, but….crickets.

    • Psycho Milt 27.2

      "People I don't like should never be welcome in this country." You're not the personal arbiter of who's welcome in this country and who isn't, pal. Fortunately, the people who make the rules take a less self-centred approach to who can enter.

      • Mike the Lefty 27.2.1

        It isn't a case whether I like her or not, pal.

        The majority of people didn't want her here, and her erstwhile supporters melted away like the cowards they are when the heat went on.

        If you wanted her here so much where were you when she needed you?

        • Shanreagh 27.2.1.1

          Did you see the age of her erstwhile supporters at Hobart?

          In Akl a 70 year old was punched in the eye by the rainbow lovelies, and now is waiting to see if the eye needs surgery, there has been a writeup from a 35 year old who was waiting to speak and who was harassed, also one of PP marshalls has spoken, a young woman who was harassed, pulled while taking PP through the crowds.

          Is this some sort of free for all stoush you are recommending where the cultivation of ideas relies on physical fighting? Sounds neanderthal & a dickery display (perhaps a bit like Andrew Tate's small dick energy!)

          Not really very left wing to advocate that sort of response instead of being able to listen and talk. Both of those were denied by those in charge of the thug's veto.

          • Mike the Lefty 27.2.1.1.1

            I don't advocate fighting, except in self defence.

            There are always a few bums around that use such an occasion and they are to be deplored.

            It is very right wing for hate merchants to stir up trouble and then claim to be the victim, just like the feral anarchists outside parliament last year.

        • Psycho Milt 27.2.1.2

          It isn't a case whether I like her or not, pal.

          In that case, maybe you shouldn't write comments announcing who should or shouldn't be allowed into the country.

          The majority of people didn't want her here…

          In your not-very-humble opinion, perhaps.

          …her erstwhile supporters melted away like the cowards they are when the heat went on.

          AKA "Might is right and we had the bigger and more violent mob." Actually, you had the only mob. Women don't generally go in for mob violence. Also, it's a strategy that only works as long as you have the bigger and more violent mob. Find yourself outnumbered and it's your opponents who'll be crowing about their victory.

          If you wanted her here so much where were you when she needed you?

          I live closer to Wellington than Auckland, you poltroon. Thanks for admitting she needed help against mob violence, though.

          • Mike the Lefty 27.2.1.2.1

            Oh deary deary me!

            Another one that should have gone to Specsavers.

            For the third time – I didn't say she shouldn't be allowed into NZ, I said she shouldn't be WELCOME.

            If you don't know the difference then you might just be the poltroon.

            What is if with you whinging right-wingers that you make such basic mistakes in your arguments?

            Sharpen up dufus!

    • hetzer 27.3

      " Im not going to debate with people here about Nazism", not sure anyone is asking you to Mike the Lefty.

      And "egotistical shit stirrers like her should never be allowed in the country", why ever not? We live in a democracy and cherish free speech, its not a "facade", you must be confusing NZ with some other place.

      I can see the brownshirt you are wearing from here Mike the Lefty.

      • Mike the Lefty 27.3.1

        Well first up Hetzer, this post was headed "Debating with Nazis" so I was simply making it clear that I was not entering into that particular debate.

        And you have misquoted me. I said that egotistic shit stirrers should never be WELCOME in this country, not NEVER ALLOWED IN THE COUNTRY. There is a big difference there.

        You should have gone to Specsavers.

        • hetzer 27.3.1.1

          Yeah right Mike. Ive met so many fascists from the left ive lost count. So I stand by the brownshirt comment and would probably add tall shiny boots too! I wasnt saying it was a bad thing.

          All good though, it actually doesnt bother me much.

          And genuine apologies for my misquote for the "never" v " welcome", words matter, and you are correct.

          • Psycho Milt 27.3.1.1.1

            Unfortunately, the left has as many authoritarians as the right, and just as ugly.

    • Michael P 27.4

      "She has been sent back to her kennel with her tail between her legs."

      Misogynistic much?

  27. newsense 28

    Well, I’m not saying it is disqualifying, but RNZ is leading their website with a banner headline about what JK Rowling thinks. That seems an enormous amount of cultural cringe. And a journalism deficit.

  28. barry 29

    One of the things about this debate is a lack of a clear definition. It seems that people's reasons for opposing trans women being called women differ, and the religious right exploit this ambiguity. People talk about "biological woman" as if that makes it clear and try to differentiate between "sex" and "gender".

    So what defines a woman?

    1. Is it the birth certificate at birth?

    This is clearly wrong sometimes, and there have always been options for correcting it. In the end, the birth certificate is just a bit of bureaucracy.

    2. Is it absence of male genitalia?

    This sound like Weka's concern as she worries about safety in prison and people with penises in women's toilets. I could concede this point, so long as there are safe spaces for people that don't fit as men either.

    3. Is it absence of a "Y" chromosome?

    Biologically this makes the most sense. Chromosome tests have a bad reputation. Also some people with "Y" chromosomes are indistinguishable from other females and in rare situations can even give birth.

    4. is it the ability to get pregnant?

    Clearly trans women cannot get pregnant, but then a significant percentage of cis women cannot as well. (and yes this does get heard in the debate)

    5. Is it not having gone through male puberty?

    This is effectively the criterion decided on by FINA for women's swimming events.

    The debate

    I think people on both sides of this debate will have more in common than appears. It is a question of rights and fairness. Trans people have rights and women have rights to feel safe.

    The danger is that someone gets painted onto one side of the argument and starts arguing for something that clearly infringes someone's rights because they feel they are not being heard.

    • weka 29.1

      The gender critical view (and the one held by nearly everyone until recently): a woman is an adult, human female (a child, human female is a girl)

      Female is the half of the human species that has the form that produces ova and bears children. This is true for every female individual even if they have had their ovaries removed or are post-menopausal. Human reproduction is binary. We need an egg and a sperm. There is no third form. Your form gets established at conception and it cannot be changed at any point after that, irrespective of surgery or hormones.

      The form we have is expressed in a range of ways over our lifetime (we can think of the adult form of humans as dimorphic), but there are still only two forms and you can't change from one to the other.

      The absence of male genitalia indicates one of three things: either the person is male and has had their genitalia removed, they have a difference in sexual development (DSD or intersex), or they are female.

      The idea that a woman is someone who hasn't gone through male puberty is highly offensive. Women are not variations of males. We are half the human race and exist in our own right.

      If trans women were women they wouldn't need the term trans woman. You cannot be a trans woman without being born male. A male person's internal feeling of being a woman doesn't change one's biology. What does it mean to feel like a woman if that doesn't come from our bodies?

      • newsense 29.1.1

        ‘If trans women were women…’

        Well, it’s an issue that affects a small minority. This tends to mean that little interest or work is done as it doesn’t affect the majority and there is no money in it.

        Mainstream psychology and law held the unnatural deviance of homosexuality to be self evident until less than half a life time ago.

        It feels to me you are holding a particularly absolutist position, assuming this is your position and not an explanation.

        I don’t know if everyone held it any more than various ways of celebrating our Lord were self evident post -Reformation, but we just hadn’t considered any alternative.

        Thinking about more than a non-gender binary view means accepting testimony. Much as we do from a range of people who feel their lives moved in a special tax free way by a non verifiable power. It does make it difficult for people who can’t experience things or externally verify them, but that doesn’t necessarily make it incorrect. Particularly when we are dealing with a group that is highly at risk.

        In any case JK Rowling can piss off. Grubby stormcrow.

        • weka 29.1.1.1

          Trans women are trans women =/= trans is a deviance. You just made that up in your own head. It's nothing to do with my views or beliefs or arguments.

          Many GCFs are gender non-conforming and are very tolerance and accepting of diversity of experience. They just don't believe that makes them the opposite sex.

          Biological sex is an observable fact that doesn't rely on testimony. Gender identity is a non-observable experience that completely relies on testimony. I don't have a problem with the reality of those two things.

          I don't know what you are trying to say here. That sex is an inner experience? People have an inner experience of their sex, but it's still a fact and it can't be changed.

          As for people that believe in god, the comparison would be if they were coming into your workplace and home and pub and insisting that you believe that god is real (and you can be fired if you say out loud that you don't believe), and they were turning all the spaces you go into churches.

          This doesn't mean that transness doesn't exist. It means that not everyone believes in it the same way, or at all. Why is this a problem? Trans people still exist and have rights.

          • newsense 29.1.1.1.1

            No I didn’t make anything up in my head! Everything I think is taken from elsewhere I promise.

            I was saying that what is considered self evident and backed by science has changed significantly in half a life time. What is considered correct and self evident now may also change.

            I was just pointing out that who is considered a woman us currently contested.

            And using adjectives to distinguish between different types of the same category is perfectly valid. This particular argument or the way you’ve stated it makes no sense.

            I guess my confusion is what you are saying. Was your post before what you believe or an explanation of a previous idea that you don’t subscribe to? I’m confused.

            Should biological sex be the determiner of womanhood? Is that what you are saying? Not biologically female, not a woman?

            • weka 29.1.1.1.1.1

              No I didn’t make anything up in my head! Everything I think is taken from elsewhere I promise.

              It's helpful to make that clear at the time. There are people who think trans is deviant in the negative sense. I am not one of them. But you replied to my explanation of gender critical views on what is a woman so I thought you were talking about what I had said.

              Should biological sex be the determiner of womanhood? Is that what you are saying? Not biologically female, not a woman?

              Yes. Whatever trans women experience, they are not female. We have a word for adult human female: woman. That word is taken. If you say that woman also means males who self ID as women, then we no longer have a word for adult human female. That's a big problem.

              I know it can be shocking to hear people say that trans women are trans women rather than women. But that is actually what most people still believe. Many people will go along with the fiction out of politeness, kindness, or fear of ostracisation. But if you dig into it and ask about things like sport or changing rooms, and point out that most TW haven't had surgery, then most people will say that TW are male bodied people.

              Are you familiar with the trans umbrella? Trans no longer means transsexual people like Georgina Beyer. It covers a lot of experiences, include males who say they are female and don't transition and males who like to cross dress. Which wouldn't be a problem if activists weren't also trying to remove women's language, culture and sex based rights.

            • Shanreagh 29.1.1.1.1.2

              If you keep in mind the biology I do not believe this:

              I was just pointing out that who is considered a woman us currently contested.

              There are cases where a child is born intersex but most children at birth have observable sex organs that enable a parent or Dr to make a call as to whether the baby is male or female.

              Over life these boys or girls grow into adult female human beings or adult male human beings.

              Also over their lives they may develop or feel comfortable somewhere along the gender continuum. No matter where you place yourselves on the continuum gender-wise your biologic body will still display male or female characteristics

              Some people wear clothes to say what their gendered self is but this does not change their bio self, they are still female or male.

              Anyway the distinction is maintained right through life, even through the removal of sex organs, the fashioning of new ones and hormones are required constantly to damp down the hormones of one's birth sex while maintaining a level of the other sex that will suppress beard growth, vocal pitch muscle tone etc.

              I am pretty sure that on death the biological markers for a transitioned male to female will still read, on genetic analysis as being male,

              NZ had laws on the books that enabled new birth certificates to issue after transitioning and a period living completely as a member of the opp sex. Also to ensure that the intersex were not shut out should they wish to opt for one or another sex.

              So after reading your post again I feel you may be confused between sex and gender and that is why Weka's posts may be confusing to you. Weka is not confused between sex & gender.

              One way to understand is that other than intersex, sex is unchanging throughout our lives at a genetic or cellular level.

              Our gender or the face/body etc we show to the world can be moved on a continuum.

              There is much confusion apparent not helped by some in the trans community saying they can 'transition' to a gender. They transition to the opp sex and then can choose where on the gender continuum they feel comfortable being placed.

              • newsense

                But there are people who disagree with you, so that is considered contested. Otherwise this thread is unnecessary?

                • weka

                  yes, there are people who think biology is wrong.

                  • Shanreagh

                    Yes that is a good starting point.

                    Let us look at biology. let us understand about that.

                    Then look at gender, let us understand about that.

                    Then let us realise that they are not the same thing.

                    I sense that this is where you, Newsense, & may not be appreciating the importance of these two issues.

                    We are able to change our gender

                    We are not able to change our sex.

                    The umbrella put up (ha ha)* by Weka has a list of the terms used.

                    This para from Weka is a very fair summary

                    26 March 2023 at 11:33 pm

                    I know it can be shocking to hear people say that trans women are trans women rather than women. But that is actually what most people still believe. Many people will go along with the fiction out of politeness, kindness, or fear of ostracisation. But if you dig into it and ask about things like sport or changing rooms, and point out that most TW haven't had surgery, then most people will say that TW are male bodied people.

                    I appreciate that you are starting to explore the issue and we have had some interesting posts over several threads here on TS.

                    • Got to get the laughs where ever they can be seen. Even lame puns will do!
                    • Liberty Belle

                      "We are able to change our gender"

                      Not on any objectively verifiable basis. A person's gender identity may be entirely valid to that individual, but it should never form the basis of public policy that put biological women at clear and obvious risk.

                    • weka

                      I appreciate all the puns!

            • Charlotte Rust 29.1.1.1.1.3

              Can you also include 'who is considered a man is currently contested' 'should biological sex be the determiner of manhood? 'not biologically male, not a man?' in your argument. Why do women constantly have to put up with this bollocks?

              As a species humans would be severely compromised if we dismissed 'mere' biology for magical thinking. I would never, ever assume to know what it feels like to be a man, even though I have fantasised about it as a younger person because men just seemed to have a better time than women.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 29.1.2

        What does it mean to feel like a woman if that doesn't come from our bodies?

        That's a very good question, one that possibly only people whose gender (identity) is truly incongruent with their (biological) sex could attempt to answer with authority.

        And maybe any answer would make little sense to the vast majority of individuals such as myself for whom sex and gender are more-or-less co-aligned, and no sense at all to people who reject or simply can't understand modern concepts of gender.

        Still, dialogue, coupled with abundant good will and patience, might bridge the gap.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex%E2%80%93gender_distinction

        • Molly 29.1.2.1

          "That's a very good question, one that possibly only people whose gender (identity) is truly incongruent with their (biological) sex could attempt to answer with authority."

          They may answer with certainty, sincerity or passionate entreaty but they can't ever answer with authority because they do not know. Everything they feel is projection or interpretation, not experience.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 29.1.2.1.1

            They may answer with certainty, sincerity or passionate entreaty but they can't ever answer with authority because they do not know. Everything they feel is projection or interpretation, not experience.

            'They' can say how they themselves feel, and imho are best placed to do so.

            Can any female, or male, truly know the entirety of feelings that another human being accumulates via experience, interpretation and projection? When people have similar and/or shared experiences, it can facilitate empathy, communication and mutual understanding. I also rely heavily on interpretation – not as good as experience, but better than no understanding at all.

            Many trans men develop masculine identities. Having knowingly talked with only one (adult) trans man in my lifetime, I don't know if there are trans men with feelings of masculinity/maleness similar to my own. Imho it's possible – it’s also not that important to me.

            Masculine identity development and health behaviors in transmasculine individuals: A theory of gender and health [December 2022]

            • Molly 29.1.2.1.1.1

              The ONLY universal experience women and girls share is that of living in a female body.

              Men don't have that.

              I would not claim to know what it feels like to be a male who wants to be female. It is nonsensical, arrogant and disrespectful to so.

              Your study: 24 women who identify as men, get to speak (irony alert) and claim regressive gender stereotypes as fact. Once more proving the lie that you can know what it is to be a member of the opposite sex.

              • Drowsy M. Kram

                It's not my study. Maybe no woman can know what it is to be a man, nor any man a woman, but they can know what it's like, and the imperfect understanding that various ways of knowing (experience, interpretation) bring can’t be worse than the current ignorance, imho.

                • Molly

                  "It's not my study."

                  The study that you linked to.

                  "Maybe no woman can know what it is to be a man, nor any man a woman, but they can know what it's like,…"

                  No maybe about it. No woman can know what it is to be a man, nor any man a woman. They can only imagine or project their idea of what it is like to be the opposite sex.

                  "…and the imperfect understanding that various ways of knowing (experience, interpretation) bring can’t be worse than current ignorance, imho."

                  "Imperfect understanding" and "current ignorance" are linguistic attempts to avoid accepting reality.

                  Once again, anyone who claims to know what it feels like to be the opposite sex, are being disrespectful, facile, and indulging in a personal fantasy.

                  If they choose to present or perform behaviours they associate with the opposite sex – it's not an issue.

                  It is only when they claim knowledge that they do not possess that it should be challenged.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    If all of the many and varied experiential aspects of being a man are impossible for any women to experience, and every experiential aspect of being a woman is impossible for any man to experience, then that could explain many of the misunderstandings between women and men – perfect understanding will be forever out of our reach, as it is with many/most things.

                    There are also misunderstandings and disagreements between groups within each of the two sexes – diversity divides us, right down to the level of the individual, and further still. Tbh, there’s no need to foster division and conflict – it’s evolutionarily inevitable – we are all united and divided by our biology.

                    The Questions of Developmental Biology (2000) – textbook stuff.

                    Political Roundup: Posie Parker and the ugly stoking of a culture war in election year – Bryce Edwards [27 March 2023]
                    Solutions to culture wars: Critical thinking and open debate

                    The main problem in culture wars arise when there is no room for nuanced discussion, openness or a willingness to learn from others and opponents. Overall, there is a need for healthier debate and engagement in New Zealand politics.

                    This is something political columnist Janet Wilson wrote about in the weekend, arguing that we have a declining culture of critical thinking and open-mindedness: “That growing inability to think critically enables what Illinois University Ilana Redstone calls The Certainty Trap, that sense of self-righteousness that comes with having brutally judged, then condemned and dismissed, someone with whom we disagree. And when it comes to political debate, Redstone says The Certainty Trap holds us back and puts up walls.

                    We need to develop our skills, Wilson says, “that includes being open-minded, having a respect for evidence and reason, being able to consider other viewpoints and perspectives, not being stuck in one position, as well as clarity and precision of thought.

                    • Molly

                      "If all of the many and varied experiential aspects of being a man are impossible for any women to experience, and every experiential aspect of being a woman is impossible for any man to experience, then that could explain many of the misunderstandings between sexes – and true understanding will be forever out of our reach, as it is with many/most things."

                      Yes, that specific knowledge of what it is to live in a body of the opposite sex will be forever out of our reach.

                      But acceptance and respect does not require your unattainable "true understanding."

                    • Liberty Belle

                      "The main problem in culture wars arise when there is no room for nuanced discussion, openness or a willingness to learn from others and opponents. Overall, there is a need for healthier debate and engagement in New Zealand politics."

                      He's correct of course. But I seriously doubt that very many of the actual fascists (the ones who shut down a woman's right to speak on Saturday) would be interested in hearing it.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    But acceptance and respect does not require your unattainable "true understanding."

                    Thanks Molly, that's reassuring.

                    • Molly

                      "Thanks Molly, that's reassuring."

                      What it is – is truthful.

                      I only say what I believe to be true, without sophistry.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    But acceptance and respect does not require your unattainable "true understanding."

                    "Thanks Molly, that's reassuring."

                    What it is – is truthful.

                    Reassuring, and truthful (never doubted it) – "acceptance and respect".

                    I only say what I believe to be true, without sophistry.

                    Accept and respect that too – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophist

                    • Molly

                      I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not with your reliance on external quotes to express your point of view instead of doing it directly.

                      Not that it matters that much to me, I just thought you might want to know.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not with your reliance on external quotes to express your point of view instead of doing it directly.

                    If you have time to specify these "external quotes", then I can provide brief reason(s) for including them in my comment(s) directly.

                    Not that it matters that much to me, I just thought you might want to know.

                    Thanks again Molly, this time for taking time to let me know about something that doesn't matter much to you – feedback is a gift.

                    And, in response to your respectful comment yesterday @9:48 pm, I agree – one would have to be unbelievably arrogant to do that. Appreciate that you haven't made this personal.

                    I believe that self-awareness contributes iteratively to the evolving unique and rippled landscape that we call an individual’s identity.
                    What a gift to humankind that 'identity' is not fixed.

                    Public Self-Awareness
                    This type emerges when people are aware of how they appear to others. Public self-awareness typically emerges in situations when people are at the center of attention.

                    This type of self-awareness often compels people to adhere to social norms. When we are aware that we are being watched and evaluated, we often try to behave in ways that are socially acceptable and desirable.

                    Public self-awareness can also lead to evaluation anxiety in which people become distressed, anxious, or worried about how they are perceived by others.

                    https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-self-awareness-2795023

                • weka

                  Maybe no woman can know what it is to be a man, nor any man a woman

                  What is being a woman?

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    Don't know – I barely know what being me is, but that's just me.

                    • Molly

                      Now, imagine the arrogance I would have to have to come along to you and say:

                      I know what it is to be Drowsy M Kram. I've always known it and Drowsy himself doesn't know it as well as me. I'm better than the original Drowsy M Kram, because I had to learn it rather than be born that way.

                      Because Drowsy M Kram has been living his life without knowing really how to be Drowsy M Kram, his ingratitude for this accident of birth is oppressive to me and he needs to remember that privilege when he gets annoyed when he finds I've slept in his bed again without changing the sheets.

                      It's been an effort to be Drowsy M Kram, and I feel invisible when the original Drowsy's mother doesn't invite me for Christmas dinner.

                      Every day when that invitation doesn't arrive, is another day when I don't exist etcetera etcetera…

        • weka 29.1.2.2

          if one believes that 'woman' is a feeling, then what you just said makes sense and you can argue that most women can't actually know what women are by their own experience.

          If you believe that woman = adult human female, then females have innate experience of being a woman (they feel it it in their bodies, not their minds alone), and no-one else does.

          There are *many women who have gender dysphoria who aren't trans or are detrans.

          Not everyone has a gender identity. The NZ government just refused to acknowledge this in teh census. Some people are allowed to self-ID, others aren't.

          I no longer believe that gender dysphoria is a single thing. It looks to me like transsexual males differ from AGP males, and both those differ from girls, women, trans men and detrans women.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 29.1.2.2.1

            if one believes that 'woman' is a feeling, then what you just said makes sense and you can argue that most women can't actually know what women are by their own experience.

            I'll take your word for it, but wouldn't argue that personally.

            they feel it it in their bodies, not their minds alone

            I believe that women are adult human females, and that men are adult human males, but from my perspective (the only one I really know), I can't 'connect' with the 'feel in their bodies' idea. I'm not questioning it – I just don't understand it. How do I go about feeling being a man 'in my body'? What does that mean – what does it feel like? Does it feel the same for all men, and for all women? Is it like feeling something in your bones, or more spiritual?

            Does one not feel it as strongly if one's libido is low (asking for a friend)?

            These are good faith questions, believe it or not. Maybe I do (subconsciously?) feel 'in my body' that I'm a man, but can't identify and describe that feeling nor the (innate) experience(s) that shaped it. It's possible (likely) that I'm not as in touch with my body as most men (and women) are.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_essentialism#Intersectionality

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfeminism#History

            Fwiw, I wouldn't insist to a trans man that they can't experience what feels like to be a man. Sure, they’re unlikely to have my personal experiences of manhood, but I don't feel qualified to state categorically that they're innately incapable of feeling what it is to be a man, and admire the certainty of anyone who can.

            Thinking it through, for me it's as simple as: (1) knowing that I'm male; and (2) being comfortable with that. I can only speculate about how being uncomfortable in my own skin would feel (more like depression than a physical pain?), and what I might do, but there are many and varied accounts of what others have done, and if that involves feeling/believing that they're a woman, despite being born male (or a man, despite being born female), then I don't have the conviction to gainsay them. What is important is that they can be at ease with themselves – it's not for me to judge what's best for them, or insist what they can and can't feel, imho.

            What does it Mean to be a Man? Trans Masculinities, Bodily Practices, and Reflexive Embodiment [20 April 2021]
            Tensions between natural and technological, material and discursive, or feminine and masculine were keys for understanding trans-masculine narratives about the body, embodiment, and identity.

            Like all other sexual species, it may be impossible for any human female to experience what it feels like to be a man (although a few clearly want to), and vice versa, but we're inventive apes and some are well-resourced – who would have given tuppence for DNA and the Internet before tuppence was a thing?

      • barry 29.1.3

        Actually the medical/scientific view until recently was largely chromosomal. XX=female, XY=male, and others didn't count. Most of us don't have our chromosomes tested so we go by what looks and feels right.

        I don't know what it means to feel like a woman (I have heard different descriptions), but I am convinced that there are lot of different ways to feel like a man. I can also conceive of a trans-male feeling as much a man as I do.

        In every measurable way there is a spectrum of characteristics and a huge overlap between what is typical for men and women.

        Lots of things in this debate are offensive. Chromosome tests are offensive. Sports administrators are trying to balance fairness and participation. Prisons are trying to keep prisoners safe (we hope) and keep others safe from prisoners. Parents are trying to help their children to find their best place in the world.

        We all really should worry about what affects us and less about putting people in boxes.

        • weka 29.1.3.1

          the biological view is as I said. Humans come in two forms based around how the species reproduces. This is true of mammals generally and many other species.

          What you are talking about is how to tell if any individual human is female or male. Yes, that can be tested, but humans already knew before those tests were available, because it's how babies are made. It's really not that complicated.

          We all really should worry about what affects us and less about putting people in boxes.

          Funnily enough, women have been saying for quite some time that self-ID and gender ideology affects us.

        • Psycho Milt 29.1.3.2

          Actually the medical/scientific view until recently was largely chromosomal.

          That may have been the medical consensus but it certainly wasn't the scientific one, which was and is that sex is a mode of reproduction and it involves the fusing of two differently-sexed gametes.

          Sex characteristics can vary hugely, especially when you look at all sexually reproducing species, but in every case the individual organism is either male or female. It's physical reality that puts them in those 'boxes,' not people. Beliefs and feelings don't come into it.

        • Charlotte Rust 29.1.3.3

          I agree with your box analogy. For decades we have been encouraged to embrace diversity. Having two rigid categories for men and women is not terribly diverse. How about trans men and women have their own boxes instead of trying to cram into women’s box? Embrace who they are instead of trying to be something they are not? The trans preface is there for a reason ie male transitioning to female. Although as I’m saying that even ‘trans’ is outdated because with self id the majority will not be transitioning, they will just be wearing a dress and makeup and using women’s facilities, ‘feeling’ like a woman. I don’t even know what it ‘feels’ like to be a woman, I just am. I liked the old ‘transsexual’ moniker – it’s neither – it’s something different, unique to itself. Exotic even.

    • Molly 29.2

      Thanks for trying Barry, but it is obvious that you are at the very beginning of considering this issue.

      "Trans people have rights and women have rights to feel safe."

      For example: This sentence alone shows the usual basic indicator, which puts "trans people" against "women" in the same sentence.

      The majority of people claiming a gender identity at present are young adolescent women. There is no conflict between them and women's same-sex provisions. When you wrote transpeople you meant men with a gender identity.

      There's an assumption it is about safety only. There are practical reasons for some single-sex provisions, and other considerations like privacy and dignity.

      And let's not forget, women can say just say No – this is our boundary and you cannot break it.

      Weka answered your first breakdown fairly comprehensively above, so I won't bother with a repeat.

    • Michael P 29.3

      "So what defines a woman?"

      The dictionary Barry,,,. Adult human female.

      "It seems that people's reasons for opposing trans women being called women differ"

      Really? In what way? Because it seems to me that the reasons people have for opposing trans women being called women are pretty much all the same. (because they're not women) That being said I'd say most people aren't opposed to trans women being called women so much as they're opposed to men being allowed into women's sex based safe spaces.

      "2. Is it the absence of male genitalia?"

      That sounds very much like defining a woman in terms of a man or a man with something missing. Why wouldn't you phrase that "Is it the inclusion of female genitalia?"

      Nobody is arguing for anything that infringes upon men's rights.

  29. Drowsy M. Kram 30

    Is there a growing move(ment) afoot to separate trans people from 'acceptable' rainbow non-conformists – a 'turf out the T' campaign if you will?

    Trans debate rages around the world, pitting LGBT+ community against itself [16 March 2019]
    Caught in the crossfire between trans activists and feminists over the nature of what it is to be a woman, calls for a break-up of the longstanding LGBT+ alliance back to its constituent elements are starting to emerge.

    It matters, because we (LGBT+ people) are all outsiders and (on our own) we can be picked off by the forces that are against us,” [Baroness] Barker said.

    Such a fracture would simplify matters for anti-trans campaigners, as they would surely have no interest in ever targetting other members of the rainbow community. Would be interesting to know how much traction this notion, that the rainbow community is tarred by a 'trans brush', might have in NZ.

    No, lesbians aren’t being ‘erased’ by trans people [22 March 2023]
    An academic has pushed back against claims that lesbians are being erased in society, saying the narrative is part of a broader right-wing movement to “fracture” the LGBTQ+ community.

    The sociologist notes there are specific issues facing lesbians, including misogyny and homophobia, and community needs which often intersect with feminist issues because “lesbians have a stake in all of those concerns”.

    However, Mackay states that “being in an ever smaller bunker” is not beneficial.

    Allying yourself with a wider group which wishes to invisibilise and erase your whole community,” referencing the extremist conservative and religious groups often in attendance at anti-trans rallies, “is not going to do you any favours. It’s not going to be a win for you.

    Your enemy’s enemy is not your friend,” Mackay adds.

    And what's going on here?

    Over 400 Anti-LGBTQ Bills Proposed in 2023 [22 March 2023]
    In Uganda, the parliament applauded passage of a bill making it illegal to identify as LGBTQ. In the U.S., the Georgia legislature just passed the latest in a string of anti-trans bills. Imara Jones is the founder of TransLash Media, an independent news site focusing on transgender issues. She breaks down what’s behind the onslaught of anti-LGBTQ laws across America and around the world.

    • Stuart Munro 30.1

      I have less of a problem with trans persons per se, than with the activist base that claims to be advancing their interests.

      "No debate" is not intrinsic to the issues such individuals face; it was a stance chosen, unwisely in my opinion, that invites conflict, and legitimizes slandering or attacking persons that otherwise might have supported the kinds of accommodations trans persons may require.

      When reasonable work arounds are finally made in respect of womens spaces, the individuals that deliberately engineered this conflict will most probably resume the pretense that they are the victims. But they were the instigators.

    • Molly 30.2

      "Such a fracture would simplify matters for anti-trans campaigners, as they would surely have no interest in ever targetting other members of the rainbow community. "

      Why would ANYONE target the LGB members of the rainbow community? That's the question.

      Do you know what is being protested here?

      Protest outside the launch of the Lesbian Project.

      https://youtu.be/qMpy8VDBJXQ

  30. Nic the NZer 31

    I think this highlights how local sporting regulations bodies will be treated should they try to limit biological males to competing in the open category.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/24/sport/world-athletics-transgender-athlete-regulations-reaction-spt-intl/index.html

    International sporting bodies really need to step up as world athletics has done, set a precedent which can be followed locally and wear the fall out of that, because the local ones will cave under pressure otherwise.

    • Molly 31.1

      I seem to recall reading that Sports NZ significantly reduced funding to a sports body that had protected the female sports category in their guidelines.

      I can't find it in my bookmarks, so if anyone recalls the details or has more information on this can they please post?

  31. Nic the NZer 32

    I'm pretty sure the Labour government and associated parties has thus thrown the election. The electorate vote for the left in this country skews female (and male on the right). Why on earth you would take either side of this as government MPs with this in mind shows a complete lack of political nouse.

    A lot of the reporting on this issue is international so there is no way the media can manage the narrative of this in this country. It appears this can be quite honestly be described as hostile suppression of expression and intimidation. But even if it gets dishonestly described as hostile suppression of expression the media and government here would have zero control over that narrative taking hold.

    • weka 32.1

      It appears this can be quite honestly be described as hostile suppression of expression and intimidation. But even if it gets dishonestly described as hostile suppression of expression the media and government here would have zero control over that narrative taking hold.

      Can you please explain that in a different way?

      • Nic the NZer 32.1.1

        Merely saying that the narrative doesn't need to be true to become dominant.

    • weka 32.2

      the political incompetence and naivety from the GP atm is really fucking me off. I assume it's naivety rather than being willing to risk the election.

  32. Hi all,

    I've done some Google searching to look into the accusations that Posie Parker has far-right links. The evidence seems pretty thin. I don't know Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull, but this looks very much like a baseless smear to me.

    One of the resources I've found most helpful is the report that was put together by Moira Deeming, the Australian MP who attended Let Women Speak in Melbourne. Another is an article written by Helen Joyce (former Britain editor at The Economist and author of the book "Trans"). There is also a GB News clip that shows the unblurred video of Posie Parker playing with her zip (allegedly a white power symbol!), and an article from The Spectator.

    You can find links to all of these resources via my article linked below (first published on Plain Sight, but I've added additional information to it since).

    Women deserve to speak without fear of violence: At Let Women Speak, the Police utterly failed to protect women

    https://argumentswithfriends.substack.com/p/women-deserve-to-speak-without-fear

    Cheers,
    Laura

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