Everything is awesome

Written By: - Date published: 8:28 am, October 21st, 2018 - 463 comments
Categories: Abuse of power, articles, Dirty Politics, labour, Media, national, Politics, same old national, Simon Bridges, spin, the praiseworthy and the pitiful, you couldn't make this shit up - Tags: , ,

So over the last week we have seen the most monumental meltdown of the credibility of a major party as you can imagine.

A senior MP goes rogue and starts spilling the beans of all of the dirty politics that they engaged in for the past few years.

It turns out that he is, what is the scientific description, rather strange and has subjected women in various positions to various states of abuse.

He gets blamed as being the leaker of rather insignificant information about how much Simon Bridges spent on transport on a get to meet the country. Bridges then burns through huge amounts of money and only manages to burn off his numbers person and create out of control chaos.

But according to some there is no problem.  Everything is awesome.  National is in great shape.  Simon Bridges has handled things really well and his leadership has been strengthened.

There is no problem with the $100,000 donation that was carved up into smaller donations just so that the identity of the donor would not have to be released.  To those who say that can I refer them to the donations funded by contributions regime in the Electoral Act.

Claims that Simon Bridges had come out on top are rather fanciful.  Sure he is still leader and has not been booted out of the National Party but that is a rather low bar to set.

And how did he not know about the allegations that had been swirling around Ross for so long?  And going from mental health induced leave to behaviour inappropriate for a married man to what we have now is quite a leap.

And wouldntyaknowit but someone had to say this was all Labour’s fault.

Ross is now threatening to release texts between himself and John Key.  He said this:

I was asked by John Key to go in and talk to the donor and see if there was something about the Labour Party that we could find out. John Key and I ended up discussing that later on in text messages.”

I am pretty sure that he is referring to the Donghua Liu donation where a donation from Liu did not appear in National’s donations disclosure but instead popped up as a campaign donation to Liu some time later.  Meanwhile Labour was savaged by the Herald for receiving donations from Liu that did not actually happen.  Here is something I wrote a couple of years ago:

The claim that this donation was for Jamie Lee Ross’s electoral expenses appears to me to be contrived in the extreme as it meant that the donation, unlike the previous donation made by Liu, did not have to be disclosed the day before Williamson resigned.  I am sure that Liu did not care or even think about the difference.  And why should any electorate seek donations when they were receiving a $24,000 cheque from head office?  This feels like an extra serving of spin designed to preserve as much as possible TeamKey TM branding.  If any media is reading this they should ask is who the cheque was made out to.  And which account it was banked into.  And why this particular Cabinet Club payment was treated differently to other Cabinet Club payments as well as the previous Liu donation.

And how do I feel about this?  Well fucking mad.  Extra words seem unnecessary.  This whole fiasco could have cost Labour the election.  Rob Salmond estimatesthat it may have cost Labour 2% of the vote and I agree with this.  That is up to three seats and it sucked a lot of momentum out of the campaign.

And you want to know the really funny thing?  There is no evidence of a donation to Labour or of Labour breaking any rules to help Liu.  But there is now pristine evidence of National receiving a donation from Liu and of subsequent action taken by a National Minister to help Liu in a police prosecution that resulted in this Minister being sacked.

New Zealand you got played.

Heather du Plessis-Allan has the best take on this week’s events in this Morning’s Herald. She thinks that Ross and Bridges are both finished and describes the three stages that Bridges’ leadership will go through:

National leader Simon Bridges’ future is also determined. He will be rolled. It won’t happen immediately but it will happen.

Don’t be fooled by National’s “nothing to see here” act. There’s plenty to see. National is a party in crisis. It’s been shocked and rocked by Ross setting off his political suicide vest this week.

Bridges’ future will play out in stages.

Right now National is in Crisis Stage One. This is where the party acts like a cat in a corner. It defends and attacks at the same time.

The party is in full attack-Jami-Lee mode. Why do you think at least four women have suddenly come forward accusing Ross of everything from bullying to “brutal sex”?

The party is also in full defence mode. This is where MPs are told to toe the line or else. They’re told who to talk to, what to say, when to smile, where to be.

Take the case of Maureen Pugh. This is the MP described by Bridges in a secret recording as “f**king useless”. As soon as that tape leaked, National took over her life. They took her phone off her. A staffer answered it on her behalf. They probably drafted the tweet she sent out accepting Bridges’ apology. They marched her out to tell TV cameras she was fine. They sent another MP for support. Or supervision.

…

Stage Two comes next. This is the Shock stage. By this stage, the story will have died down, so the adrenaline will have worn off. National’s polling will probably have dropped. The party’s support will likely have taken a huge knock.

MPs at this stage will feel aggrieved about the dead rats they were forced to swallow and the cups of concrete they were told to drink. They will wonder whether it was worth sucking up whatever they were told to suck up, given that the polls still dropped.

Cue disgruntlement.

Then comes Stage Three. The Roll.

This where Bridges gets rolled. This stage only comes after a big drop in the polls. No one will roll Bridges without that. No one wants to be the person who rides the polls down. But everyone wants to be the white knight who carries them back up. So a low polling is a prerequisite.

There are a couple of polls out tonight. I suspect Bridges’ preferred ratings may go up a bit as tribal Nats rally around the leader. But if the party support starts to slide, and I am convinced that it will, stages two and three will not be far away.

463 comments on “Everything is awesome ”

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  1. peterh 1
    21 October 2018 at 8:45 am

    When is Paula going to talk about the female mp who has not acted like a married member of parliment. and if there was bullying and brutal sex. why did she keep going back

    • Reality 1.1
      21 October 2018 at 9:06 am

      Peterh – Paula will be unavailable if asked to comment on that issue. The twisted morals, the way people are used and disposed of etc etc – all in all a slimy bunch and dirty politics never went away.

    • marty mars 1.2
      21 October 2018 at 11:36 am

      Yeah shaming time eh metaphorically stone them and demand answers!!! //SARC

    • AsleepWhileWalking 1.3
      21 October 2018 at 12:35 pm

      The Blue Circus doesn’t need a third ring.

    • Reg 1.4
      21 October 2018 at 6:49 pm

      Auckland female National MP. Do you ever wonder why they didn’t put her up against Jacinda?

      • shadrach 1.4.1
        21 October 2018 at 9:45 pm

        I’m not sure who you mean, but here is an Auckland female National MP who twice went up against JA and won both times. Nicki Kaye.

    • Kahu 1.5
      22 October 2018 at 7:21 pm

      The man gets shamed for the affairs but the married women get a pass?

  2. ScottGN 2
    21 October 2018 at 8:48 am

    Paul Little was pretty good in the Herald this morning too. Deploying his usual droll understatement.

    “Which is why it really is an employment matter in the end. National is no longer employing Ross. His caucus soon may not be employing Bridges. And we will not be employing the National Party as our government.“

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12144698

    • Dennis Frank 2.1
      21 October 2018 at 9:03 am

      Heh. ” It’s more proof, if any were needed, that politicians are the last people who should be running a country. In many ways, of course, they don’t. The actions that really influence the economy, the social system and the rest of our lives are really made every day by business people, criminals and others just going about their normal business.”

      “But, politicians continue to act like they matter. People who can’t for the life of them recall what they did with $100,000 and struggle to remember who gave it to them would like us to give them the keys to the economy.” Well put, eh?

      • Pat 2.1.1
        21 October 2018 at 9:13 am

        “The actions that really influence the economy, the social system and the rest of our lives are really made every day by business people, criminals and others just going about their normal business.”

        Lol….that reminds me of a recent article that refreshed an old adage.

        https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/oct/19/billionaires-wealth-richest-income-inequality

        • Dennis Frank 2.1.1.1
          21 October 2018 at 9:42 am

          Definitely a good one there, Pat. A significant point from the economic sociology prof: “The wealthy people I studied not only had wealth managers but often dedicated staff members who killed negative stories about them in the media and kept their names off the Forbes “rich list”.”

          You’d think they’d be competing with each other to move further up the Forbes rich list, eh? Perhaps some do, but she’s pointing to those who prefer to fly under the radar. Which is where the psychodynamics of conspiracy theory come in: to conspire successfully, it’s essential to remain invisible. So all those conspiracies that are currently operating successfully remain unknown to outsiders.

          “Brooke Harrington, an American professor of business and politics at Denmark’s Copenhagen Business School, travels the world studying tax havens and sharing her findings with academics, policy makers and the general public. Demands for her lectures only increased last fall after Harvard University Press published her book Capital Without Borders: Wealth Managers and the One Percent, which became popular in Denmark and abroad.”

          “Harrington sees public scholarship as an essential part of her work as an academic. But Danish immigration authorities are calling it something else: a crime. “As unfair as this is, if this were a civil matter, I’d pay the fine and be done with it, this has eaten up so much of my life,” Harrington said in an interview Monday. “But this is a criminal charge. So as someone who would like to be employed and travel in the future, I can’t.”” https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/11/28/american-professor-denmark-says-shes-being-targeted-immigration-officials-delivering

        • Draco T Bastard 2.1.1.2
          21 October 2018 at 11:30 am

          Indeed, an underappreciated irony of accelerating economic inequality has been the way it has exposed behaviors among the ultra-rich that mirror the supposed “pathologies” of the ultra-poor.

          The ‘supposed’ pathologies of the poor are actually the rich projecting their own wasteful lives upon everybody else.

          Many even present themselves as homeless – for tax purposes – despite owning multiple residences. For the ultra-rich, having no fixed residence provides major legal and financial advantages; this is exemplified by the case of the wealthy businessman who acquired eight different nationalities in order to avoid taxes on his fortune

          And people will still wonder why I think dual citizenship needs to be illegal.

          EDIT:
          Extreme Wealth is Not Merited

          Extreme wealth evokes images of both deserving entrepreneurs and fat cats. This paper explores whether the meritocracy argument stands up as a defence of extreme wealth. It uses an analytical framework – ‘the ladder of demerit’ – to look at several sources of extreme wealth ranging from crime and cronyism, to inheritance, monopoly, globalization and technology. The higher rungs are clearly not meritocratic. The lower ones reward talented people multiple times what can be justified based on merit.

          Data drawn largely from Forbes’ list of billionaires provides a tentative indication of the relative importance of each rung.

          The paper concludes that fifty percent of the world’s billionaire wealth is non-meritocratic owing to either inheritance or a high presumption of cronyism. Another 15 percent is not meritocratic owing to presumption of monopoly. All of it is non-meritocratic owing to globalization. By contrast, crime and technology are found to be negligible sources of extreme wealth.

          • JohnSelway 2.1.1.2.1
            21 October 2018 at 11:49 am

            Why should dual citizenship illegal?

            My GF has German and US citizenship as well as being able to work in NZ on a partnership visa. Not sure what the problem is?

            Because other people abuse it isn’t a valid reason.

            • veutoviper 2.1.1.2.1.1
              21 October 2018 at 11:55 am

              Your GF is not related to Peter Thiel by chance? ROFL.

              Sorry, my pedantry for details led me to immediately connect the two as Thiel also has German and US citizenship – as well as his 12 day gift NZ citizenship.

              I will close the door on my way out …

            • Draco T Bastard 2.1.1.2.1.2
              21 October 2018 at 12:03 pm

              Why should dual citizenship illegal?

              Because it encourages corruption.

              Because other people abuse it isn’t a valid reason.

              Yes it is.

              The laws aren’t there for the majority of people as they’ll go through life and not actually act unethically. The laws are there for the minority of people who will act unethically and will thus help protect those that won’t.

              • JohnSelway …
                21 October 2018 at 12:15 pm

                Dual citizenship encourages corruption? Very very wide brush you’re painting with there.

                And that people abuse it isn’t a valid reason. People abuse the benefit, people abuse lots of things. People who are corrupt will be corrupt no matter what system you have in place. Your “ban things that people will abuse” is unworkable and unfair to the honest among us

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  21 October 2018 at 2:08 pm

                  Dual citizenship encourages corruption?

                  That’s what the article tells us.

                  And that people abuse it isn’t a valid reason.

                  Yes it is.

                  People abuse the benefit, people abuse lots of things.

                  And there’s rules around them.

                  People who are corrupt will be corrupt no matter what system you have in place.

                  The rules are there to let the corrupt know that there are consequences to their actions.

                  Your “ban things that people will abuse” is unworkable and unfair to the honest among us

                  Make rules to prevent abuse but that can’t be done with dual citizenship as each nation has it’s own rules and thus the only option is to ban dual citizenship.

                  • JohnSelway …
                    21 October 2018 at 2:14 pm

                    No, the article tells us the a super rich guy is using dual citizenship to avoid taxes. So it’s should be banned because of this?

                    Should we ban people selling fruit from an honesty box because it encourages theft because someone stole?

                    The vast majority of people don’t abuse the system in the way you suggest. You’re taking a cannon to kill a fly approach that’ll effect millions of honest people because of a slim minority.. Basically it’s a dumb idea and poorly thought out. Punish millions for no reason

                    • Kahu …
                      22 October 2018 at 7:33 pm

                      I oppose dual citizenship because how can you have two masters? In conflict between two states how do deal with people with divided loyalties/loyalty to the enemy state. Many Chinese in NZ for example do not see themselves as NZer’s first but as Chinese first & foremost. if China ever decides to rebuild empire, The China-loyal people here could act as a fifth column & offer a reason/justification for Chinese action here …especially if we keep letting them pour into the county and expand their % of pop. We are seeing Chinese intervention in our political system coz we have given them power of numbers & grip on economy. Real power is where the money is. we are just replacing one economic dominance group for another.

            • Gabby 2.1.1.2.1.3
              21 October 2018 at 3:01 pm

              Yes, it’s a valid reason. I was a great driver at age 12 but, goshdarnit, no licence for me.

  3. Nick 3
    21 October 2018 at 8:53 am

    Hopefully the media will keep digging and Ross will keep gushing.

    • Chris 3.1
      21 October 2018 at 9:43 am

      And we’ll get to see Key squeaking through his liar’s face.

      • Wensleydale 3.1.1
        21 October 2018 at 2:42 pm

        I hope so. Christ, do I hope so. Key got away with so much and was never made to answer for any of it. If Jami-Lee ‘Kamikaze’ Ross is prepared to cut that particular fly-blown carcass open and expose the stomach-churning vileness within, more power to him.

        • Chris 3.1.1.1
          21 October 2018 at 5:23 pm

          There needs to be a list put together of all of his unexplained lies. When he first knew about Dotcom and the Hollywood boffins saga is one.

    • Dukeofurl 3.2
      21 October 2018 at 10:01 am

      Keep digging ?

      Nope to that.
      Bridges has threatened them with defamation proceedings over the donations- thats why you dont find it mentioned and his role in it anymore

      • Craig H 3.2.1
        21 October 2018 at 11:09 am

        I almost wonder if that’s why Ross stayed on in the end – Parliamentary Privilege allows him to say anything in Parliament, so defamation can’t be used to squash it.

        • Dukeofurl 3.2.1.1
          21 October 2018 at 1:15 pm

          Yes. But you have to add the rider: Parliament proceedings can be reported without being sued, so its the media whos off the hook.
          They are under Bridges threats at the moment, even though as an politician its a lot more difficult for him to win.

  4. Dennis Frank 4
    21 October 2018 at 8:58 am

    Current Nat leadership circling the wagons, traditional defense strategy. The united front, once the motif of the left, now deployed by the Nat caucus. But who is the enemy? Is it the coalition govt? Hardly. They ain’t fighting. Just standing on the sidelines trimming their nails, whistling, looking at the sky and wondering about a change in the weather.

    Is it the media? Bridges apparently went on a foray into their camp the other day, delivered a bit of tongue-lashing. No, it’s Simon Lusk, the enemy within. Two of his agents are now poised to take over from Bridges as soon as the Nat polling hits the thirties.

    Those seeking a leisurely sunday read are well-served by exhALANt, find his comprehensive analysis of the relevance of current & past Nat shenanigans to the future of Aotearoa here: https://exhalantblog.wordpress.com/2018/10/19/bad-systems-and-corrupted-process-nationals-current-problems-simply-highlighted-other-bigger-issues-in-nz/

  5. patricia bremner 5
    21 October 2018 at 9:05 am

    That we all knew how two faced the National party could be, it has been confirmed on so many levels. This acceptance of the fallout is like stages of grief. For once HDA got it right Micky.

  6. ScottGN 6
    21 October 2018 at 9:16 am

    As an aside does anyone know why Audrey Young, the so-called Senior Political Reporter in the Herald hasn’t said ONE word on the fracas (that I can find) in the week since it started to detonate across the political landscape?

    • veutoviper 6.1
      21 October 2018 at 10:10 am

      She has not said one word on anything this week.

      Perhaps – just perhaps – instead of being a conspiracy – she is on leave, taking a break, maybe unwell, etc?

      Journalists are entitled to holidays, sick leave etc like other employees, etc.

      Here is her last article in the Herald over a week ago.

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12141492

      However, she did do several related articles at the time JLR went on leave in early October.

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12137567

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12135781

      • ScottGN 6.1.1
        21 October 2018 at 10:19 am

        I wasn’t suggesting a conspiracy vv, just a bit surprised really that the Herald’s senior politics reporter has taken a pass on what will undoubtedly be the politics story of the year.

        • veutoviper 6.1.1.1
          21 October 2018 at 10:33 am

          Well it could be just leave etc. I haven’t noticed her among the press scrums over the last week, but that is not to say she hasn’t been there.

          OTOH, maybe she has decided to keep well out of this particular messy situation in view of her family connections to the National Party including having a brother (Jonathan Young) who is currently a National MP. If so, possibly a very wise decision IMO.

          • Dukeofurl 6.1.1.1.1
            21 October 2018 at 1:19 pm

            Theres another gallery reporter whos gone quiet too- Jo Moir-some of her previous storys were clearly based on information from Ross, right up to mondays news about Bridges changed electorate donations…then nothing …zilch

            Can JLR have been playing the whole female contingent? You wouldnt think so , but anythings believable.

            • veutoviper 6.1.1.1.1.1
              21 October 2018 at 2:32 pm

              Is that who you have been hinting at in your other comments as well implying that she may be connected to JLR?

              You are well off course IMO. Cannot see those two together in any way at all. Very different people; very different interests. You do know that Moir is a fanatic long distance cyclist like Mallard and probably spends more time (cycling) with him that his wife? LOL.
              https://twitter.com/jo_moir/status/1048736002435473408

              Do you also know that Jo is no longer Stuff’s Parliamentary Press Gallery reporter?

              She moved over to RNZ some time ago (beginning of 2018?) and is now Senior Political Reporter there. As you say, she was reporting on the Bridges expenses leak up until Mon 15 Oct afternoon when Bridges did his stand-up on the leak investigation. Since then, Jane Patterson (RNZ Political Editor) and Chris Bramwell (RNZ Deputy Political Editor) have taken over all reporting on the leak, and the ongoing Ross/Bridges fiasco.

              However, the fact that Jo Moir has had no news articles at all on RNZ and has not tweeted on her Twitter account since last Monday means nothing in my opinion. From her Twitter account she seems to have worked daily for over a week prior to 15 Oct. I have noted in the past that she tends not to tweet when she is on leave which is the most likely explanation IMO – – probably training for the BDO Lake Taupo Cycle challenge on 24 November as mentioned in the tweet I linked to above.

              https://cyclechallenge.com/

              • Dukeofurl …
                21 October 2018 at 6:37 pm

                Jo Moir on RNZ is where I have been following her parliament stories

                1) She broke the exclusive that the secret leaker had sent a txt to Bridges and Mallard raising the mental health issue. As Mallard and Bridges kept that news secret who else would know. This was one of the Bridges report items that snared Ross,
                Notice how this is called EXCLUSIVE as this was the first public news of the txt. Moir wrote that story.
                https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/364796/exclusive-text-plea-to-call-off-bridges-expense-leak-inquiry

                2) She had a story about Bridges altering his electorate return over the Cathedral Club donation

                Then nothing since the Monday story, check it out.
                https://www.radionz.co.nz/authors/jo%20-moir

                VV you seem to be the only one saying Ross wasnt the leaker despite the preponderance of evidence. very strange as you are usually very careful about claims

                Reread the results of the enquiry , you will find the Jo Moir story and Ross contacting her was one of the primary leads.

                Got to go now , JLR has been taken by Police into a mental health facility

            • Kahu 6.1.1.1.1.2
              24 October 2018 at 6:50 pm

              She could be one of the 15 lol.

    • Ankerrawshark 6.2
      21 October 2018 at 10:12 am

      I wondered where Audrey was too Scott. I have been following this (? Obessively) and seen nothing from her. Perhaps she’s on annual leave.

      So please you refreshed us about the dong Liu donations Mickey. I really hope Ross has info on this.

      You can tell Nats in big trouble when in one week Barry and Heather say so. I am glad she has called them on their happy as Larry pretence

  7. JohnSelway 7
    21 October 2018 at 9:18 am

    I was under the impression that thus far there is no evidence the 100k donation was dealt with improperly?

    • Dennis Frank 7.1
      21 October 2018 at 9:25 am

      You’re in good company (Geddis, Edgeler). It hinges on the sections of the Electoral Act and subsequent amendments quoted onsite here several days ago. The evidence of intent to use a loophole is clear enough. Lawyers seeing a lack of evidence to convict is only part of the whole. Conviction on the basis of intent to subvert the decision of parliament seems feasible.

      • JohnSelway 7.1.1
        21 October 2018 at 9:36 am

        What I mean is that JLR said it was improper but none of the tapes suggest that

        • Dennis Frank 7.1.1.1
          21 October 2018 at 9:50 am

          Yes, and I’ve been waiting for him to follow up on that. Could be that his lawyer has advised him to hold off until the cops decide whether to prosecute the Nats or not. Could be Lusk isn’t using Ross as a puppet, it’s just Ross using Lusk as advisor.

          Improper is a subjective word. Some see impropriety where others don’t. Is it improper for the Nats to game the electoral system? Not from their point of view, if they do so legally. Is it improper to subvert the intent of parliament in passing electoral legislation? I suspect the judiciary will agree on a yes answer of some kind, even if they conspire to let the Nats off the moral hook on a technicality. So the outcome will be produced by whichever devil is lurking in the quoted sections of our electoral law.

          • JohnSelway 7.1.1.1.1
            21 October 2018 at 10:02 am

            Then perhaps the post should amended as it states it was carved up despite no evidence of it

        • Ankerrawshark 7.1.1.2
          21 October 2018 at 10:13 am

          Yet

          • JohnSelway 7.1.1.2.1
            21 October 2018 at 10:14 am

            Yet….

            But the post is still inaccurate

            • veutoviper 7.1.1.2.1.1
              21 October 2018 at 10:24 am

              ‘Possibly’ inaccurate – but who knows? We don’t know what Ross has given to the Police.

              The author, mickysavage, is a practising lawyer who is well versed in electoral donations etc through his many years of work for the Labour Party so I am sure he will amend the post if he considers it necessary for clarity.

              • alwyn …
                21 October 2018 at 1:55 pm

                Of course he will. I’m sure everyone believes that.
                Just like everyone believes in the tooth fairy.

            • te reo putake 7.1.1.2.1.2
              21 October 2018 at 10:46 am

              I’m not sure that it is inaccurate, John.

              Ross said that he would be providing proof to the cops when he met them the other day, effectively admitted breaking the law himself. National has not denied that the donation was split and they could easily prove that it was not, if it hadn’t been.

              Their silence on that point is rather telling.

              I think the only thing in doubt is whether there is evidence that Bridges (or some other senior Nat) Ok’d the splitting up of the money.

        • Dukeofurl 7.1.1.3
          21 October 2018 at 10:17 am

          By looking at each sentence in isolation, thats the only way to see ‘nothing wrong here’
          but when you look at the ‘preponderance of evidence’ from the acknowledgement Bridges arranged a $100K donation, that it turned up as exactly 6 X$14k +$2k from people the party had never heard of. ( who does that)
          The discussion about an extra Chinese MP, the son of the ‘donor’ having attended candidate college.
          Then there is texts from the party GM about difficulties the donations have caused, when the law says they must return the money in those circumstances.

          And Im sure JLR has only partially released his information to prevent national from lining up all its ducks to cover it up. When ‘theres more to come’ they are left exposed.

          Too many commentators are taking a ‘black letter’ view of the law. Yet we found with the Banks case on his anonymous donations, The High court judge took the view that Banks arranged the donations so he was culpable when he signed it off as anonymous but knew differently. The evidence suggested he knew differently and thats the same in this case. Bridges knew differently by meeting certain people, by his discussion with Bridges over it, by wanting to thank someone who in the end wasnt listed to the party as a donor under $15000.

          • Dennis Frank 7.1.1.3.1
            21 October 2018 at 10:31 am

            7x14K + 2K = 100K, but I’m not gonna blame you for being a naughty boy & ignoring your maths homework. Once in the nineties I awoke from a nightmare in which I was still trying to pass the Maths year three exam I’d been studying for more than twenty years earlier. Shudder.

  8. ScottGN 8
    21 October 2018 at 9:19 am

    And how come all of a sudden Bryce Edwards is pretty much getting blanket coverage on every media?

  9. Dennis Frank 9
    21 October 2018 at 9:21 am

    Bryce Edwards attempts a rationalisation of the govt’s sideline strategy: “If other political parties attempt to capitalise on these allegations – which they are normally very tempted to do – then those parties also become vulnerable to additional allegations being thrown their way. Hence, Labour, New Zealand First, and the Greens are now treading very carefully, avoiding making any statements at all about what’s going on in National.

    Then teeters on the edge of banality: “Given this current scandal threatens to spiral further out of control, and “scandal politics” might well swamp much of New Zealand politics in the immediate future, we need to all be discerning consumers of political controversies – with an eye to detecting what are the meaningful allegations and exposures, and what is just gutter politics. In the end, perhaps we should all be demanding “better quality political scandals”.”

    So he seems to think criticism of National by the other parties will only cause National to reciprocate, so don’t do it. No point in having a parliament then, is there? Yet he fails to draw the obvious conclusion. What use is a political scientist who is unable to deduce?

    And what about his apparent assumption that all those other parties he mentions play as dirty as National? Too scared to articulate that? Is implying it sensible? Why doesn’t he advocate transparency for all parties? A true democrat would.

    • Kat 9.1
      21 October 2018 at 11:00 am

      Bryce Edwards tries to be a non partisan “commentator” but fails miserably.

    • tc 9.2
      21 October 2018 at 12:53 pm

      Quite pathetic but what did you expect.

      This is mana from heaven for a half decent political journo to get stuck in as JLR effectively ‘flipped’ as the mob say and ALL the dirt could out.

      Bet they wished they chose a sounder bagman for botany now. IMO they’ll be going flat out to NDA him off behind the charade.

    • Kahu 9.3
      24 October 2018 at 6:57 pm

      I used to have great respect for Bryce but he’s losing the plot. i think he might be looking at becoming a labour candidate so is treading lightly coz he knows Labour doesn’t have clean hands when it comes to donations either.

      • Dennis Frank 9.3.1
        25 October 2018 at 4:26 am

        Yes, seems that way. I doubt he’s silly enough to join Labour but if he did he would prosper due to lack of competition.

  10. patricia bremner 10
    21 October 2018 at 9:21 am

    Johnselway, just keep hoping for a miracle. LOL

    • JohnSelway 10.1
      21 October 2018 at 9:38 am

      but no evidence has been presented.

      My point is this post says the 100K was improperly filed and broken up but no evidence has been presented to support that.

      I don’t like Bridges in the slightest but, you know, there’s nothing to say he did anything wrong with the money except JLR says so which is just conjecture at this point

      • Dennis Frank 10.1.1
        21 October 2018 at 10:04 am

        I watched his mother’s comment just before (think it was on the Herald site). Consistent with his, and easy to sympathise with. The problem lies in the strategy followed to process the donation: Bridges on tape discusses the 100K donation, and how to get it, with Ross. You’re right that Ross has produced no evidence of Bridges instructing him.

        Ross has been a leading fund-raiser for National for many years, and described as such by them. I suspect he already knew the method, just wanted to hear Bridges telling him to use it. If he has that instruction on tape, the reason for not going public with it yet would be due to Lusk and/or his lawyer advising him to wait.

        Wouldn’t surprise me if Lusk wanted to use it as a king-hit on Bridges during the Botany by-election, to drop the Nat loyalist vote around 10%, but then realised the margin of defeat for Ross was looking even bigger so that strategy wouldn’t work.

        Anyway, so we can see plausible deniability working for Bridges as his mother implied. If the loophole was deliberately created by the Key govt, can’t blame the current Nat leader for using it.

        • Carolyn_Nth 10.1.1.1
          21 October 2018 at 11:20 am

          So they are bringing out guys’ mothers now to encourage some sympathy for the brutal players in this conflict?

        • alwyn 10.1.1.2
          21 October 2018 at 2:32 pm

          “during the Botany by-election”
          What Botany by-election? You are aware, I assume, that Ross’s statement that he was going to resign from Parliament was about as accurate as his claims about what he had on his recordings?
          In other words it was just another bit of b*s from an expert in its production.
          Ross isn’t likely to resign unless he ends up with charges being laid against him.

          He is going to be very, very lonely if he actually does turn up at Parliament. There won’t be a single person there who will be willing to say a word to him, or even sit near him in Bellamys. I remember reading something from Jim Anderton about what it was like when he was in that situation.

          He probably won’t come very often The penalty for not being there is trivial and you have to miss every day of an entire session to lose your seat. He’s already been there this session (there is only a single session in the whole term of a Parliament) so that won’t apply.

          He’ll keep collecting his pay though. He is probably going to need it as I can’t see him getting any sort of job in New Zealand again.

          Would you employ him?

          • veutoviper 10.1.1.2.1
            21 October 2018 at 2:41 pm

            You are well out of touch alwyn.

            No-one uses Bellamys anymore.

            • alwyn 10.1.1.2.1.1
              21 October 2018 at 3:07 pm

              Is it beneath them to have to mix with hoi polloi?
              They probably got a bit cheesed off with the public being allowed in.
              On second thought I do remember the complaints that the prices had got a bit steep for poor, underpaid MPs. Fine dining was in.

          • Dennis Frank 10.1.1.2.2
            21 October 2018 at 3:23 pm

            “What Botany by-election” The one that the media were discussing most of last week. The one that the National Party is discussing whether to trigger by using the waka-jumping legislation. Pay attention, huh?

            Re employability, he seems to have gone into politics after leaving school at 16, campaigned for a council seat, his pitch when doork-nocking 5000 homes was that he wanted to represent the younger generation. It worked. He won a seat. So that establishes a track record as an entrepreneur. Put that together with other Nat MPs conceding that he has been a leading fundraiser for the Nats for quite a few years, we get a track record of success that makes the guy seem a winner, not a loser. You’re in denial.

            • alwyn 10.1.1.2.2.1
              21 October 2018 at 5:24 pm

              “makes the guy seem a winner”.
              You have rather odd standards.
              I guess Chris Carter was a “winner” when he tried something similar to Phil Goff.

      • Ankerrawshark 10.1.2
        21 October 2018 at 10:18 am

        John s it’s with the police now. Hopefully given a claim has been made they will investigate it and determine what went on.

      • Ankerrawshark 10.1.3
        21 October 2018 at 10:29 am

        Up to Mickey. He’s the lawyer

        • JohnSelway 10.1.3.1
          21 October 2018 at 10:34 am

          No one more than me would like to see the back of Bridges but at the same time I get irked by inaccuracy, particularly from my own side of the political fence because I want to be better than the rights penchant for accusation.

          But that’s just me. I’m anal about it I’m afraid

      • Pete 10.1.4
        21 October 2018 at 11:14 am

        No evidence has been presented? You mean no evidence has been presented to you? Did you expect it? Or did you want it through the media?

        There’s a case in some court somewhere in New Zealand on Tuesday morning and someone’s charged with murder. You say, “No evidence has been presented.” All you know is what is claimed and possibly a basic bit of information. Related details, the contexts of those, leads to investigating other stuff are not publicly known until they or parts of those are made public.

        We can’t necessarily believe Ross but the tape released to the media we heard is likely to be “part of the jigsaw,” as police would say.

        No evidence has been presented? You don’t know that. And you don’t know the amount of any if presented, the quality of it, the usability of it, the worth of it in proceeding to lay charges or issue warnings.

        • JohnSelway 10.1.4.1
          21 October 2018 at 11:26 am

          Cool man. I’m sure you can link me to the evidence which shows Bridges asking for the payment to split up.

          I’m not saying he didn’t but thus far there’s nothing outside Ross’s say so

      • alwyn 10.1.5
        21 October 2018 at 2:16 pm

        That is a problem for a lot of the reporters.
        Because they are in general on the left of the political spectrum they tend to have grabbed anything Ross said as being the gospel truth and published whatever he claimed to have on a recording as if it was the truth.

        Now quite a lot have discovered that they should have followed one of the rules of their profession in the past. Don’t publish without checking your story.
        The “evidence” Ross claimed to have was nothing of the sort. In fact it tends to implicate Ross, and clear Bridges, of any involvement in dodgy behaviour.

        Some of them, who didn’t get in to deep have gone quiet. They are probably hoping everyone forgets their mad columns. Others, like HDPA went so wholeheartedly into the denigration of Bridges that they can’t withdraw. If Bridges survives the pseudo-journalist like HDPA probably won’t. She seems to have decided her only option, rather like Ross, is to go even more over the top.

        As I listened to the tape the impression I got was that Bridges was welcoming $100k worth of donations but there was no material that proposed it was a single donation or all from one person.
        In that case it should clearly be recorded as being a number of, apparently 8, donations and although names had to be recorded there was no need to publicly identify them.

        Given the amount that has been published, both in the papers and on sites like this one, attacking the people involved, and Chinese in general, I am not surprised that they want to remain anonymous.

  11. Anne 11
    21 October 2018 at 9:40 am

    I was asked by John Key to go in and talk to the donor and see if there was something about the Labour Party that we could find out. John Key and I ended up discussing that later on in text messages.

    Of course it was the Liu scandal. Liu remembered he had written a letter eleven years earlier to his then MP, David Cunliffe asking for assistance – was it something to do with his citizenship application? Whatever it was, Cunliffe’s electorate secretary handled the request in the normal way. Cunliffe had nothing to do with it. The media went into full attack mode, and Cunliffe was set up as the bogey man!

    You know what I think mickeysavage… if JLR does reveal the texts etc. then someone should lay formal complaints to the… Ombudsman (?) about the conduct of both John Key and the media over that vile and sordid little affair.

  12. Observer Tokoroa 12
    21 October 2018 at 9:44 am

    A litle bucket and smaller spade

    Bryce Edwards wades in the shallows. Like a child. Always does.
    All in aid of his national pocket.

    He would never seek or find a problem with corruption within Bridges, Bennett or Collins.

    He is has not one/tenth of the honesty of Heather Du Plessis.

  13. Cinny 13
    21 October 2018 at 9:52 am

    Did you say polls are out tonight?
    That’s going to be interesting, probably will be from before this weeks circus, but even that will be fascinating.
    Winston is a good caretaker PM, will that be reflected in the polls, will Winston poll higher than simon bridges?

    Damage control is in full swing, simons mum has an interview in the Herald reassuring NZ that she didn’t bring him up to swear.

  14. Carolyn_Nth 14
    21 October 2018 at 10:41 am

    The JLR dirty politics meltdown demonstrates how competition for wealth and power is intimately inter-twined with misogynistic, generally abusive and sexually abusive behaviour.

    It is shown in reports of JLR’s behaviour coming from too many quarters to not have some credence. It is shown in the arrogant way JLR has talked about it in public, and the way he is not denying some of the claims, but attempting to airbrush his role in the events complained about.

    It also is shown in the willingness of the Nat Party to harbour and channel such behaviour in the interests of gaining money and power. It is shown in the way they align themselves with the wealthy and powerful in other countries (not just China).

    • Dennis Frank 14.1
      21 October 2018 at 11:06 am

      There seems to be a noticeable lack in positive male role models in his life, starting with his father going awol. Most sensible thing for him to do at this point, essential even, is for him to go and talk to his grandmother about his relations with women. He has already acknowledged her mentoring role in bringing him up to respect women, but he lacks a grasp of how power relations warp human relations.

      For someone with self-acknowledged mental health fragility, compassion is the best attitude. Condemnation from the Nats isn’t really appropriate because the betrayal cuts both ways. He explained how Bridges offered him a role, then gave it to someone else after JLR had accepted it. Failure to acknowledge that breach of verbal contract shows how useless our msm journalists often are.

      • Carolyn_Nth 14.1.1
        21 October 2018 at 11:24 am

        I don’t think it’s up to amateurs to explain bad and destructive behaviour as a mental health issue. Some supporters of the needs for better provisions for people with mental health issues are not happy with such a line – as expressed on social media.

        We have no real way of knowing what happened in politicians backgrounds. What is on display is a toxic, brutal culture within the National Party, and possibly wider in politics. The proponents of this culture have encouraged and sanctioned certain kinds of behaviour.

      • veutoviper 14.1.2
        21 October 2018 at 11:33 am

        We don’t actually know that there was a lack of positive role models in his life, Dennis. Just because his father was not in the picture doesn’t mean that there were not other male role models within his wider family who took on that role.

        He also went to a boys school – Dilworth School, run be a charitable trust – which would appear likely to have offered considerable positive role modeling. That may well be why he went to that particular school.

        https://www.dilworth.school.nz/

        My understanding is that Maurice Williamson was very much mentor to JLR from the latter’s teens, employing him and mentoring him right through his entry into both local and then national politics. Williamson is now NZ Consul-General in Los Angeles and is apparently distraught at recent events.

        EDIT – Carolyn Nth and I seem to be playing tag team today! LOL

        I fully agree with her comment above – particularly her last two sentences.

        • Dennis Frank 14.1.2.1
          21 October 2018 at 11:59 am

          Yes, I was commenting on the noticeable lack in respect of him not citing any (only citing his grandmother in that respect), plus no voluntary comment from any cited in the media thus far. A noticeable lack, which I noticed. I agree we don’t know if it is real or just apparent.

          I doubt if anyone in their right mind would view MW as a suitable mentor (not suggesting you do). I agree with Carolyn and you re the toxic Nat culture, and the likely warping effect in respect of the conduct of Nat male MPs, and I commented here yesterday accordingly.

          Re Dilworth, my second wife has two younger brothers who went there and turned out well. Their mother jumped off the top of the ASB building back in the sixties when it was the tallest in Auckland, landed on the roof of a taxi & walked away. Made the front page of the Auckland Star.

          • veutoviper 14.1.2.1.1
            21 October 2018 at 12:19 pm

            Wow – re your last para …

            Back to JLR. Actually re MW I am indifferent as to whether he would be a suitable mentor. As a former public servant, I certainly did not find him Ministerial material, but his career was not without some wow moments.

            In fact, having refreshed my memory on a very shallow level via Wikipedia, I had a “light bulb moment” as there are some parallels to the current JLR situation …………………

            “Suspensions[edit]
            He was suspended from caucus on 22 July 2003, after refusing to curtail his criticism of the National Party leader, Bill English, who he blamed for poor performance in the polls.[3] After English was replaced by Don Brash, Williamson was reinstated. After his return from suspension, Williamson played an active role in National, and was elevated up the ranks to eighth position in the National lineup in 2008.

            On 1 May 2014, he resigned his ministerial portfolios after making what the Prime Minister, John Key, called, “A serious error of judgement.” The Prime Minister was referring to a phone call Mr Williamson had made to the Police enquiring about a charge they were laying against businessman and National Party donor Donghua Liu over domestic violence allegations. Williamson had told police he was not trying to interfere with the process – he just wanted to make sure somebody had reviewed the matter to ensure the police were on solid ground as “Mr Liu is investing a lot of money in New Zealand”.[4]”

            Don’t have time right now, but I must find more detail about the 2003 suspension.

            And MW did go out with humour, etc – I still remember his wonderful Big Gay Rainbow speech!

    • marty mars 14.2
      21 October 2018 at 11:45 am

      “… demonstrates how competition for wealth and power is intimately inter-twined with misogynistic, generally abusive and sexually abusive behaviour.”

      Yes I agree.

  15. Sacha 15
    21 October 2018 at 10:43 am

    It is all too easy for media to turn a bigger political story into a personal one, and the Nats’ comms team will be stoking that along: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/107995476/personal-and-professional-pain-widening-repercussions-for-mp-jamilee-ross

    But writing in the Howick and Pakuranga Times on Saturday, Ross’s former colleague and confidante Phil Taylor said Ross owed many people an apology, starting with his family.
    …
    “He must recognise his marriage is over, that his loyal wife is destroyed by complete confirmation that he’s been cheating on her and their two young children, and that his Nana, the loveliest, strong woman who he owes everything to, will be distraught. “And plenty angry.”

    “What Ross is failing to feel is the emotional impact of his actions on his family and the people who have had associations with him over long periods.”

    However, one interesting point lost in the kerfuffle:

    One long week later, Ross still emphatically denies he was the leaker. ​The person who started it all may still be out there …

    • Carolyn_Nth 15.1
      21 October 2018 at 11:02 am

      Plausible deniability is easy. ie JLR could have texted via a burner phone, or he could have got someone else to make the leak under his instructions.

    • veutoviper 15.2
      21 October 2018 at 11:18 am

      Despite everything else, I actually still believe Ross when he denies that he was the leaker – but he was the person who sent the later texts etc.

      Speculation only on my part with no evidence, rumours etc, but I think that:

      – (a) The leaker (himself/herself) may be completely disconnected from Ross;

      or

      – (b) (1) Ross actually put the leaker up to doing it; may have supplied the info – or the leaker had their own access to the info; and

      – (b)(2) then once it was decided to go ahead with an investigation, Ross and/or the leaker panicked, hence the followup texts re mental health etc to try to stop the investigation.

      EDIT – Above was written before seeing CN’s comment at 15.1.

      Have held the above view since last Mon when Nats ‘released’ the findings of the investigation in speed dating mode.

      • Dennis Frank 15.2.1
        21 October 2018 at 12:06 pm

        I’d go for (c) Lusk was deploying both Ross & the leaker as part of his master plan. I realise that the chess-master thesis could be seen as a conspiracy theory, and there is a very real danger some readers will get hysterical. I trust others will direct them to a mental-health help-line if necessary.

        • veutoviper 15.2.1.1
          21 October 2018 at 12:36 pm

          I don’t rule (c) out completely but what I have heard (rumour level) is that Lusk was initially trying to be seen in that master plan role earlier in the week, but that Ross is not necessarily buying it or listening to Lusk.

          Lets face it. Lusk is not on the ground in Parliament – or in the National party hierarchy – and never has been. He does not know how things actually (underlined) operate in those environments. JLR does. He has had seven years’ experience of how Parliament operates – and much longer hands on experience of how the Nat party operates.

          EDIT – was it you who mentioned a few days ago about someone standing alongside Ross at his post Police media interview? I had a look at the videos and the only people I saw were press photographers etc except for one sound recordist with a similar look to Lusk but IMO was smallersize/build. Microphone (fluffy) one etc had no identifying logo etc. Is that who you were referring to? If it was Lusk I would be surprised if someone else did not recognise him and comment in the media.

          • Dennis Frank 15.2.1.1.1
            21 October 2018 at 1:19 pm

            You’re probably right. As someone who learnt how to play power games in a behind-the-scenes way, I’m familiar with that uncertainty around who’s pulling who’s strings. In parity relations, can go either way & often you get mutual acknowledgement that sometimes one, sometimes the other will take the initiative. That interplay never happens in a dominance/submission hierarchy context.

            Think it was that media situation you mention, but the guy was alongside him and in a fairly close-up shot with him. I agree Lusk would be unlikely to front with him, let alone in that situation. Probably his lawyer. Did have the same sandy hair but significantly lacking any recent cut, and also lacking the feral look!

            • veutoviper 15.2.1.1.1.1
              21 October 2018 at 1:34 pm

              The sound recordist (sandy hair, etc) stood alongside him several times during the stand-up and was on camera when he did.

              But IMO no lawyer would look like that when accompanying a client to an interview with the Police. No suit etc; casual clothes, trainer shoes – and a lawyer would be discretely recording using a smart phone.

              • Dennis Frank …
                21 October 2018 at 1:49 pm

                No kidding? In my television career sound recordists were even more behind the scenes than video editors! But that was Auckland. Maybe in Wellington they get themselves into the shot alongside the politician in order to demonstrate that they are really co-stars of the show.

                • veutoviper …
                  21 October 2018 at 3:16 pm

                  Exactly! That is why this guy stuck out but I don’t think it was Lusk. A real amateur IMO.

                  Many years ago when living in London, I was engaged for several years to a sound recordist with BBC Outside Broadcasts. Had great weekends away on the Beeb … LOL. Two of my flatmates also worked for the Beeb.

                  Remind me who you worked for here in TV – TVNZ of the other? I probably know a few mutual names (Akl ones).

                  Must go – been trying to get out for two hours now and still haven’t. Will try to find the video with the recordist sticking out like a sore thumb later and post here.

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    21 October 2018 at 3:50 pm

                    Was working in the TVNZ News & Current Affairs dept ’88-’97. Made stories for Paul Holmes, Jim Mora, Bill Ralston, Dylan Taite, Mark Sainsbury, John Stewart, Phil Smith, Michael Wilson, Duncan Garner, Lisa Owen, Mike McRoberts, Susan Wood, Simon Shepherd, Heather du Plessis Allan, Greg Boyed, Peter Williams, Mihi Forbes, Carol Hirschfeld, Liam Jeory, Cameron Bennett, April Ieremia, Cathy Campbell, Richard Long, Judy Bailey, Philip Leishman, Leanne Malcom, Simon Mercep, Bernadine Oliver-Kirby, Tini Molyneux, Syd Henare, Rau Kapa, Hinerangi Luckman, Moari Stafford, Tuku Morgan and a few dozen others. No, didn’t recall them straight-off, google prompted the memories…

                    • veutoviper …
                      21 October 2018 at 5:01 pm

                      LOL. I was thinking more about camera operators ( Mike O’Connor) , govt management (eg Richard Griffin), tech management ( / someone Cunningham?) …

    • Chris T 15.3
      21 October 2018 at 12:39 pm

      ??

      Ross created the story and he chose to craft it as a personal one from day one

      • joe90 15.3.1
        21 October 2018 at 12:58 pm

        Actually, from day one Bridges crafted it as a personal story with his announcement that Ross was on leave to sort out a very private and personal health issue.

        A fortnight later Ross re-crafted the story, as utu.

        • Chris T 15.3.1.1
          21 October 2018 at 1:20 pm

          Someone going on leave is hardly the story

          Would you prefer him to not have let him go on leave?

          • Dukeofurl 15.3.1.1.1
            21 October 2018 at 1:24 pm

            Normally the person on leave makes the announcement, but wordsmith Bridges did all the talking.
            And its clear now it was the first step to him stepping down from all his portfolio work….and then backbench and then quietly spending more time with his family come election time…..shhhh…not a word now.

          • joe90 15.3.1.1.2
            21 October 2018 at 1:40 pm

            There probably wouldn’t be a story had Bridges been able to weather a little bad press about his profligacy . But no, his fragile wee self decided to be strong, flush out the leaker, and grandstand by putting Ross on leave.

            That was my mistake.
            Why, that was my mistake.
            One by one I counted all those happiest of days
            That was my mistake.
            That was my mistake.
            That was my mistake,

        • veutoviper 15.3.1.2
          21 October 2018 at 1:27 pm

          You forgot Bridges saying “embarrassing” not once but three times.

  16. Carolyn_Nth 16
    21 October 2018 at 11:00 am

    HDP:

    The party is in full attack-Jami-Lee mode. Why do you think at least four women have suddenly come forward accusing Ross of everything from bullying to “brutal sex”?

    Is this just major speculation on HDPA’s part? because, as I understand it, Melanie Reid was investigating JLR for over a year and has been interviewing more than 4 women. Is 4 a magical number? Or did Bridges know that MR had 4 women among their interviewees who were likely to be the first to allow MR to go public with their claims?

    According to MR, the 4 women gave the green light to their calims being public because of the public denials of JLR.

    ie: it’s too easy to join a lot of dots and come up with the wrong conclusions when there clearly have been a lot of claims and conflicts involving JRL behind the scenes, and the Nats have tried to squash them.

    • Jack Ramaka 16.1
      21 October 2018 at 7:36 pm

      Pulla reckons its 15 ?

    • Kahu 16.2
      24 October 2018 at 7:08 pm

      No rape, or physical assault so what crime is JLR guilty of? Just another feminist witch-hunt saying aarrgghh …toxic masculinity… At least they can’t use the ‘white privilege’ bullshit against him.

  17. Ed 17
    21 October 2018 at 12:24 pm

    Bomber Bradbury nails it and gets to the heart of the whole story.

    “One of the most fascinating things about the remarkable revelations in the current civil war inside National was how a former Communist Party leader now based in New Zealand attempted to buy two Chinese MPs to put on National’s Party list.

    What makes this revelation fascinating has been the effort the mainstream media have gone to ignore it.

    On social media, the surprise and startled shock by ordinary New Zealander’s at the ease with which China could make a play for this level of political influence has been met with an equally stunned reaction at how far the NZ news industry has avoided this naked attempt at subjugation of our sovereignty.

    Aside from the odd token guest opinion piece and Bernard Hickey over at newsroom, the majority of the NZ media have not focused on this extraordinary attempt to infiltrate the largest political party in NZ in favour of MeToo framed anonymous allegations of bullying and harassment of women by JLR.

    When the National Party has become little more than a front for Chinese Business interests with an alleged spy inside their caucus and Jenny Shipley, Don Brash, Ruth Richardson and Chris Tremain Director’s of the China Construction Bank, Judith Collins interaction with Chinese Officials to help her husbands Chinese Company, Oravida, to gain more Chinese money and Maurice Williamson’s love affair with Donghua Liu seeing him become Liu’s personal handyman when doing up Liu’s batch and heavying the Police to drop domestic violence charges it is more than fair to start demanding far more scrutiny and public debate towards China’s power over our economy and political system, especially when the academic who is highlighting this influence is being intimated and having her house broken into by Chinese agents.”

    Read the whole article here.

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2018/10/21/why-the-media-and-politicians-are-so-silent-on-chinese-influence-in-nz-and-what-you-need-to-do/

    • Adrian 17.1
      21 October 2018 at 1:18 pm

      Don’t forget the fuel line cut off to Auckland that cost millions.
      That was linked to swamp kauri recovery operators working in with an Oravida linked company as well.
      That Crusher Collins, she stopped a lot of cars in their tracks, just the wrong ones.
      Another Nat hidden ” nothing to see here ” moment.

    • SPC 17.2
      21 October 2018 at 2:49 pm

      The real revelation of Jaime-Lee Ross via the phone call with Simon Bridges was not of an illegal donation; but that the Chinese donor knew the New Zealand law so well he had organised the $100,000 donation in 7 parts – all just under $15,000 via various fronts. But National knew who and the how and thus were bought all the same.

      And as the bought party they knew there were expectations.

      In the matter of political donations it showed how easily those who formed associations for the purposes of laundering donation money could finese our law.

  18. Kat 18
    21 October 2018 at 12:29 pm

    “Ardern’s lack of knowledge of GDP and the economy can be overshadowed with fluffy, rosy, baby stuff”

    Above is the musings today of Gurbrinder Aulakh a practicing lawyer in Auckland, and former Chair, Deputy Chair, and advisor of organisations working with refugees and migrants. The commentary displays a typical patriarchal sentiment with the put down of Jacinda Ardern regarding the economy. Only males know about these things. Look out Amy Adams.

    Everything is not awesome.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/107951238/politics-is-a-dirty-game-and-the-national-party-is-losing

  19. Fireblade 19
    21 October 2018 at 1:04 pm

    Tau Henare and Marama Fox let rip on Jami-Lee Ross, Simon Bridges and Paula Bennett.

    “When there has been information that needed to be leaked to muddy the waters or get away from something” Ms Bennett had often stepped in, said Ms Fox.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/10/tau-henare-and-marama-fox-let-rip-on-jami-lee-ross-simon-bridges-and-paula-bennett.html

    • Dukeofurl 19.1
      21 October 2018 at 1:21 pm

      Marama Fox ? Shes hardly covered herself in glory since leaving parliament. Ethics isnt her strong point just now.

    • Dennis Frank 19.2
      21 October 2018 at 1:27 pm

      Tau Henare: “the president of the party, his head should be rolling down Willis St right now”. A tad non-pc, do you think? Shouldn’t be putting such ideas into Simon Lusk’s head. Can’t help imagining how a shot of it would play on the tv news tho.. 😎

  20. Ankerrawshark 20
    21 October 2018 at 1:28 pm

    I am still really puzzled and intrigued but what’s really going on here. The women’s stories of his behavior imo goes without question. Backed up by them talking to Melanie Reid for over a year. So Ross is a bully and manipulator, but none of his actions so far criminal. His profile also fits with being very involved with underhand activities within national. He presents very persuasively (far better than Bridges) and appears plausible, even charming. He’s been bringing in the money for National and liaising with donors for sometime. Up till vert recently trusted by Bridges.

    Do buy fully that bridges sent him on medical leave cause of the women….must have been an excuse to get rid of them cause early indications tied him to the leak. Also not convinced he did the first link. Nat mps now saying they realized Ross was approaching them possibly taping them about Bridges leadership. So what if someone opened up to him and together leak organised? Person then freaked so Ross does the mental health issues text.

    I don’t believe for Ross this is just about Bridges. Everyone knew Simon was nicely going about his own downfall…….history is full of double agents or people like Bernie madoffs off sides who once discovered worked with the police to bring him down.

    Also really not sure how involved luck is. He’s lost control of his man if he is…..

    Hope we eventually gets answers to all this…….

    • veutoviper 20.1
      21 October 2018 at 2:56 pm

      I have to go out and would like to give a fuller reply but this bit stuck out to me.

      “The women’s stories of his behavior imo goes without question. Backed up by them talking to Melanie Reid for over a year.

      I am a detail person (and a woman), and accept that Melanie Reid (a reputable journalist in my opinion) has been working on an investigation for over a year. But I have also heard differing stories as to what the focus of that investigation has been over that year, including that the main focus was not on these women’s stories for most of that time.

      I do not – repeat not – believe that all of those women have been talking to Reid for over a year. I am of the belief that at least one of those women (and possibly more) has only talked to her/Newsroom in the last month, and possibly only in the last week or so. I will say no more but there are indications that back this up.

      Note that I am not necessarily questioning what they have said – only when.

      Re the leaker etc I am with you to a degree – see my earlier comment here
      https://thestandard.org.nz/everything-is-awesome/#comment-1539330

      • Ankerrawshark 20.1.1
        21 October 2018 at 3:13 pm

        Thanks veutoviper. I am really open to any credible hypothesis and or evidence about what’s going on. Believe much more to this than the leak….

        Wondering if was ross was pissed off big time when key sacked Williamson, as some have said Maurice was a mentor for him….and then they expected Ross to carry on with their dirty work…………..saw what happened when his mate slipped up and didn’t like it so started gathering evidence. Btw this is pure speculation on my behalf

  21. SPC 21
    21 October 2018 at 2:20 pm

    There has been the attempt to rationalise the leak investigation as the right option because it exposed Jaime-Lee Ross (regardless of the fact there is still no evidence it was him who did so).

    However it was done while the waka jumping legislation was in play, and thus was always done with a risk of National resorting to use of legislation it said it would remove when in government.

    Bridges claimed that the reputation of our democracy in the world would be at risk because of the existence of this legislation – more so if it was used …?

    It’s not the game plan of someone with a strategy, it’s more the tactical manouvering of someone fighting on multiple fronts (someone feeling insecure in their party leadership and responding with aggression to example someone).

  22. JustMe 22
    21 October 2018 at 3:13 pm

    Methinks the time of addressing a politician as being Right Honourable certainly has done its dash and is long over its Used by date considering the behavioural problems of the National Party of New Zealand.

    National has done absolutely nothing honourable in its actions etc over the past week and months and of course years.

    Both Bridges and Bennett have come out all this looking like vindictive nasty little creatures who have a vendetta against anyone that criticises National whether they be beneficiaries or a fellow National MP.

    I am Labour Party and even now I respect Jamie Lee Ross. And so out of the ENTIRE NZ National Party there is ONLY ONE MP I respect. Well done Jamie Lee Ross. You have shown more credibility than any of your National colleagues can hope to achieve.

    My mind now goes onto the matter of the split donations matter. Where did Bridges get the idea? Was it from John Key and Bill English? Where did John Banks get the idea? Was it also from John Key and Bill English? How many split donations in the past 10 years that were made to the NZ National Party will never be made public knowledge? Does that mean Key and English condoned split donations whilst there was a National government?

    Still out of all this we now see National for what it truly is and that is a shallow and opportunistic party that values money above all other matters. Some weeks ago Bridges was on the telly commenting on the number of road fatalities in a stretch of road leading to Tauranga. He was blaming the current government but naturally when he was in a National government there was probably not a peep out of him in regards to that stretch of roading. And if he did he probably claimed that the roading concerned had nothing to do with National or the government of the day.

    Since then all Bridges appears to be on the media to be doing now is not giving a toss about NZers but slandering and name calling Jamie Lee Ross.

    And so that sort of behaviour by him(Bridges)is something that would demean a normal thinking adult

    Still lets encourage Bridges to continue his actions as it demeans the NZ National Party more and more in NZ voters opinions.

  23. dV 23
    21 October 2018 at 5:06 pm

    And now

    Rogue National MP Jami-Lee Ross has been taken into mental health care.

    Newstalk ZB understands he was TAKEN IN by POLICE

    He was taken to a facility in Auckland.
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12146335

    Does that seem weird?
    Taken in by police/

    • Sacha 23.1
      21 October 2018 at 5:09 pm

      Not if he was a threat to his own safety. Good they could help out.

      • dV 23.1.1
        21 October 2018 at 5:14 pm

        Yes true, BUT who would make that assessment?

        • Sacha 23.1.1.1
          21 October 2018 at 5:34 pm

          There’s a pretty standard procedure. Nothing unusual from what little detail we have been given. Remember that police have already been involved in his situation over last few weeks, so they have a head start if anything looks risky.

    • Gabby 23.2
      21 October 2018 at 5:25 pm

      Depends on what he was up to at the time.

    • Psych nurse 23.3
      21 October 2018 at 5:56 pm

      The Police have no right to just take someone to a mental health facility, they can us a section 106 to take someone for assessment, they usually have to use a DAO [duly authorised officer] to protect the rights of a proposed patient and facilitate any assessment but only after a sec 8a and 8b has been signed by a family member and medical practitioner. All this does is enforce a mental health assessment by a Psychiatrist.
      There is no need for conspiracy theories, enough safe guards exist to prevent any skullduggery.

      • Sacha 23.3.1
        21 October 2018 at 5:59 pm

        Safer in there than in a caucus meeting.

      • marty mars 23.3.2
        21 October 2018 at 6:08 pm

        Exactly. It is not necessary for the conspiracy theories at all.

      • Muttonbird 23.3.3
        21 October 2018 at 7:02 pm

        So who is the family member and who is the doctor? There is extremely high public interest in this so all the facts need to be provided as soon as possible.

        This is no ordinary commitment.

        • joe90 23.3.3.1
          21 October 2018 at 7:12 pm

          This is no ordinary commitment.

          Families requesting police assistance during possible mental health incidents and police escorting possibly ill patients to treatment facilities is as normal AF.

          btw, committed, really?.

          • Muttonbird 23.3.3.1.1
            21 October 2018 at 7:28 pm

            I’m saying there is a very very high level of public interest in this and the authorities need to get as much information as possible to the public as soon as possible.

            If he tried to harm himself or threatened to harm himself, then say so. That would take all the heat out of the issue.

            It’s not great when the media are reporting the the National Party had doctors watching him for days.

            • joe90 23.3.3.1.1.1
              21 October 2018 at 7:35 pm

              And he’s entitled to as much privacy regarding his mental health as JA was to to the birth of her child.

            • McFlock 23.3.3.1.1.2
              21 October 2018 at 7:41 pm

              No, don’t say so. Patient confidentiality comes before panty-sniffers’ desire to know. And even if they come out with the reason, some folks here would probably just call it a fabrication.

              As far as I’ve read, he’s only been admitted for assessment. Police can be part of that if they’re called about someone having an episode, they defuse the situation, and all concerned decide that treatment is needed – especially the person who the police were called about. Then the cops will give the person a lift to treatment.

              • Muttonbird …
                21 October 2018 at 7:48 pm

                There’s a lot of discussion on the how we should talk about and report about suicide.

                You are from the camp which seeks to bury it.

              • Carolyn_Nth …
                21 October 2018 at 8:07 pm

                So why does it look like the Nats are the ones who made it public that JLR was taken into a mental health facility? If so, they are the ones invading JLR’s privacy. We need to know if that’s the case.

                • McFlock …
                  21 October 2018 at 10:42 pm

                  I guess nat orchestration is in the eye of the beholder.

                  If it’s a fit up, he’ll be out shortly and there will be hell to pay.

        • veutoviper 23.3.3.2
          21 October 2018 at 8:14 pm

          Who the hell said it was a ‘Commitment” as opposed to an “Admission”?

          Massive difference …

          • Muttonbird 23.3.3.2.1
            21 October 2018 at 8:17 pm

            Tbf commitment is the wrong term. I should have said committal. Apologies for that.

    • veutoviper 23.4
      21 October 2018 at 6:06 pm

      This is quite normal.

      NZ Police have Crisis Assessment Teams who are the first ones on call when a mental health crisis is alerted via 111 etc. I have posted here several times on this procedure and don’t have time to find all the info I have provided previously but here is one link that explains it a little.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/99735922/a-growing-emergency-why-are-cops-looking-after-mental-health-patients-in-crisis

      More links here.

      https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=nz+police+crisis+assessment+teams&rlz=1C1LDJZ_enNZ499&oq=nz+police+crisis+assessment+teams+&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i64.16408j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

      • Dennis Frank 23.4.1
        21 October 2018 at 6:29 pm

        Okay, thanks. So all it takes is a 111 call from either him or someone who sees the signs, eh? If he did it himself or he was with someone who knew the signs, that’s good. How would a stranger know?

        • veutoviper 23.4.1.1
          21 October 2018 at 7:28 pm

          If you are a stranger, you call 111. They take it from there.

        • Kahu 23.4.1.2
          24 October 2018 at 7:19 pm

          But any stranger could call and say “I’m worried about this guy he’s… So they could make shit up, get the police to pick him up & put him away for 5 days to keep him quiet out of way while giving Nats time for story to quiet, for them to tidy house, get rid of any incriminating documents, get stories straight etc Not too much of a stretch to think that a nat-friendly high-up police official & a nat-aligned doctor could put the fix in there for nats.

          • Dennis Frank 23.4.1.2.1
            25 October 2018 at 4:21 am

            Yes, that’s how I’ve been seeing the situation too. As long as the authorities continue to fail their responsibility to tell the public the truth, plenty of folks will continue to suspect them!

      • Carolyn_Nth 23.4.2
        21 October 2018 at 7:15 pm

        But why does that call seem to have come from the Nats, and notifying the media about it?

        • veutoviper 23.4.2.1
          21 October 2018 at 7:32 pm

          Sorry CN. I have a bit of a crisis in my turangawaiwai at present. So don’t know why the call seems to have come from the Nats.

          Am I surprised by this development? No. Noone could cope with what has gone down over t he last week or so without a crisis.

          • Carolyn_Nth 23.4.2.1.1
            21 October 2018 at 7:42 pm

            That’s the way the report on it reads. It comes with a statement from the Nats, and no other clarification.

  24. WeTheBleeple 24
    21 October 2018 at 5:19 pm

    Sounds like someone stamped some papers to shut him up. Can’t make coherent statements pumped full of drugs.

    This is very seriously scummy.

    • Dennis Frank 24.1
      21 October 2018 at 5:58 pm

      A reasonable point of view, given the history of how mental health diagnoses have been used to eliminate political rivals in various countries. We need to wait & see how the media report that police got involved today. Media haven’t reported any diagnosis from his prior breakdown(s) as far as I know.

    • Stunned Mullet 24.2
      21 October 2018 at 6:03 pm

      Nonsense the police and health professionals do not use their powers to behave in this manner, frankly I find your assertion offenssive.

    • marty mars 24.3
      21 October 2018 at 6:08 pm

      Rubbish. You dont have a clue.

    • veutoviper 24.4
      21 October 2018 at 6:13 pm

      What Stunned Mullet said – offensive. See my quick comment at 23.4.

  25. Ffloyd 25
    21 October 2018 at 5:30 pm

    Our hairdresser told my husband while cutting his hair last week that she had gone to school with JLR. She said he was a very polite, well brought up, respectful student who never barged through doors in front of girls and held doors open for teachers and he was always like that while she knew him. She was shocked at the “Rough sex” accusations as well as all the other inflammatory rhetoric used by alleged victims and didn’t believe most of these women who have suddenly come out crying harrasment, intimidation, bullying and all using the same terminology. She fully accepted that people change but couldn’t see him being as abusive as being portrayed in the relatively short time since she knew him. As it turns out most of affairs seemed consensual, and one was long term. If this behaviour was so violent as suggested surely people in the small circle they were in knew about it. Why was he not kicked out then? This sudden group of 4, possibly 15 is too contrived to be true imo. Fyi I am totally opposed to any form of violence toward women but do not necessarily believe all women without proof or evidence of accusations.

  26. Ankerrawshark 26
    21 October 2018 at 5:33 pm

    Holy hell, prime news Jami-Lee Ross admitted to mental health unit. Omg didn’t see that coming

  27. WeTheBleeple 27
    21 October 2018 at 5:44 pm

    Sounds very much like National did it “Out of concern for his mental health”.

    If that is so, the entire party should be disbanded as a corrupt criminal organisation and charges laid against anyone and everyone obstructing the truth and the law.

    This is repulsive.

    • Stunned Mullet 27.1
      21 October 2018 at 6:08 pm

      🙄 National could not do it, they are neither family members, Jami-lee’s Dr, nor relevant police officers, nor members of the judiciary.

      Please learn how the relevant legislation in NZ must be enacted.

      http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1992/0046/latest/whole.html

      • WeTheBleeple 27.1.1
        21 October 2018 at 6:15 pm

        It only takes a couple of signatures it’s not like Bridges signed the thing himself. But nothing to see here obviously.

        Pull your damn head in. Key was threatened.

        “Anyone who believes that a person may be suffering from a mental disorder may at any time fill out an application form asking the Director of Area Mental Health Services for an assessment of the person.”

        How about you do some reading.

        They’ll try keep him down till the skeletons are buried.

        • McFlock 27.1.1.1
          21 October 2018 at 6:20 pm

          Get a life.

          • Dukeofurl 27.1.1.1.1
            21 October 2018 at 7:01 pm

            Salman Bridges will stop at nothing.

            They would have this option ready for the last few days and waited till Saturday night of a long weekend to put in action.

            They just need a concocted accusation hes threatened to harm himself passed on to a party member who is the right medical registration and the police are called to carry it out- who want his phone

            • marty mars 27.1.1.1.1.1
              21 October 2018 at 7:07 pm

              wtf? You can’t be serious.

            • McFlock 27.1.1.1.1.2
              21 October 2018 at 7:27 pm

              They just need a concocted accusation hes threatened to harm himself passed on to a party member who is the right medical registration and is willing to throw away their medical career for the sake of a short term assessment and the police are called to carry it out- who want his phone – as well as a close relative who is willing to go along with everything.

              Fixed it for you, sort of.

              And it only works if he hasn’t backed up his phone. Or better yet, deleted that phone / got a new one, and has kept backups from the old phone.

              What you say is theoretically possible, but frankly there’s a higher chance of me being invited to be part of a three-way tonight. And I’m not exactly waiting by the phone in antici….

              ….pation.

  28. Kay 28
    21 October 2018 at 6:07 pm

    What @Psychnurse said. There’s no conspiracy theories, so lay off on that one.

    And it’s a horrible situation to be in, especially having the police be involved and yes I have so can very much empathise. Even with all my despising Nats and often wishing bad things on them, I never wish severe mental distress on anyone and I sincerely hope that whatever is happening with him in that part of his life is able to be sorted.

  29. Ankerrawshark 29
    21 October 2018 at 6:14 pm

    Kay 100+

  30. WeTheBleeple 30
    21 October 2018 at 6:22 pm

    I had an ex was going to commit me and as a psych nurse she had the power to do so. the papers drawn up and everything. She thought I must be mad because I didn’t love her.

    Yes, you read that right.

    She missed her chance I left town and though the paperwork was ready for several months eventually she got over herself.

    To think this system can’t be abused is naive.

    It only takes one nurse, or one Doctor, to institutionalise people.

    • Dennis Frank 30.1
      21 October 2018 at 6:35 pm

      Like I said above, a reasonable concern. A double-sided coin, folks here disagreeing with you are telling the truth about their side of that coin, you’re telling it about your side. Seems to me nobody can deny your personal experience (which I lack) but I’ll support you in order to apply both/and logic to the situation!

    • AsleepWhileWalking 30.2
      21 October 2018 at 7:03 pm

      I agree with you, the system can be abused and has been in the past.

      Yup safeguards are in place but they still can fail.

    • Macro 30.3
      21 October 2018 at 7:18 pm

      Totally agree – I have seen it abused many times in the past. I used to work as a social worker and visited the infamous M8 ward at Porirua Hospital as part of my routine. It’s too damn easy to get a person committed. I thought we had moved on from those times – but obviously not!

  31. SPC 31
    21 October 2018 at 6:27 pm

    The National Party knows the rules by which donations are made/things can be organised to happen – and how to make things go away.

    The real question is whether all the tapes that he claims to have would still be there when he gets out … as per the Professor in Christchurch.

    And their concern for his mental health (knowing before the media what had happened?) is touching.

    Given the issue of motive and networking means of some, one would like some assurance this is above board. And that his property is not going to be removed while he is isolated.

    • Cinny 31.1
      21 October 2018 at 6:44 pm

      Nailed it SPC.

      • SPC 31.1.1
        21 October 2018 at 7:13 pm

        If there is a deep state in New Zealand now is the time it would be called into action, the question for our media is whether

        1. they are able to quickly and fully inform us about the procedures used in this action.
        2. whether police can guarantee both the security of his property and privacy (as to information) while he is “in residence”.

        • Cinny 31.1.1.1
          21 October 2018 at 9:45 pm

          A friend was taken away by the ‘men in white coats’ once, against their wishes.

          Sedated, not listened to, no phone access, locks on the door.

          The person who made it happen was very convincing.

          When they were released a few days later, house had been stripped bare etc etc.

    • SPC 32.1
      21 October 2018 at 6:55 pm

      “MP Jami-Lee Ross has been taken into mental health care, it is understood.

      Stuff has been told by a source close to Ross that the MP was taken to a mental health unit in Auckland late on Saturday evening after police visited him at his Botany electorate office.

      It is understood that Ross does not have his phone but Stuff was told he has been in contact with friends to say he was carrying on his fight against the National Party.”

  33. Dukeofurl 33
    21 October 2018 at 6:47 pm

    The police definitely will have Ross’s phone by now. They will use that to make his back ups of the messages and txts disappear.
    this is the important part , not someone in national making a complaint that he was a danger to his own life

    I bet they werent just the local area cops bu the special teams who work on political problems.

    • SPC 33.1
      21 October 2018 at 6:49 pm

      Act leader David Seymour has responded to the news on Twitter:

      David Seymour
      @dbseymour
      I have been staying out of the JLR saga but if reports are true that @nzpolice have detained a sitting MP under any circumstances they need to give an immediate explanation. Obviously these are unusual circumstances but police detaining a sitting MP is constitutionally serious.

      5:24 PM – Oct 21, 2018

      If it was Saturday night, then by this stage the search has taken place, anything he has has been indentified (and possibly removed).

    • Chris T 33.2
      21 October 2018 at 6:53 pm

      So now the police who National don’t actually run anymore are corrupt and in on your massive conspiracy?

      • Macro 33.2.1
        21 October 2018 at 7:21 pm

        If what is being reported is true, then it bloody well looks like it!

      • Gabby 33.2.2
        21 October 2018 at 7:45 pm

        Yennah chrusty, iss juss mates lookin afta mates mate.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 33.2.3
        21 October 2018 at 9:08 pm

        “the police who National don’t run anymore” (nudge nudge, wink wink)

        Senior police OKed the entirely bogus actions against Hager, and the equally bogus Tuhoe/Urewera raids. Police that planted evidence that helped to convict Thomas were never called to account. Occasionally NZ police make bad calls, and very very occasionally they are corrupt.

        While I sincerely hope that JRL’s hospitalisation is above board, it would be naive not to at least consider the possibility that the (ultra) wealthy and influential are (at arms length) seeking to protect their interests by any means possible.

        Not suggesting it’s probable, just saying that after what’s happened in the last week, anything’s possible, even in the ‘corruption-free’ former tax haven that is NZ.

        • Muttonbird 33.2.3.1
          21 October 2018 at 9:13 pm

          Good post. Questions need to be answered. Oddly, some contributors think that is unnecessary.

      • Kahu 33.2.4
        24 October 2018 at 7:26 pm

        They don’t need to ‘run’ the Police all they need is a key senior officer & a doctor.

    • Dennis Frank 33.3
      21 October 2018 at 7:10 pm

      What we don’t know is if the Nats requested the police take him in. Someone ought to ask the police minister in parliament why they did so. Depriving an MP of liberty against their will is fascism. Whoever asks the parliamentary question ought to say so. It could help the turkeys therein to focus their minds.

      If he himself requested it, all good. But I won’t believe that until he tells the nation via tv cameras that he did so. If a family member requested it, the public ought to be told. If anyone here thinks it’s okay if our privacy laws get used to cover up fascism, they’ve got another think coming!

    • Anne 33.4
      21 October 2018 at 7:25 pm

      dukeofurl @ 33

      Why would it be deemed necessary to take his phone away from him? By all means, monitor his usage of it but to take it away… that smacks of totalitarianism.

  34. Muttonbird 34
    21 October 2018 at 6:49 pm

    John Key ordered this. ☹️

  35. Fireblade 35
    21 October 2018 at 6:54 pm

    I don’t have enough information to form an opinion on this yet.

    David Seymour has made some interesting comments on twitter if anyone is interested.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/dbseymour/status/1053864507636965376

    • Ed 35.1
      21 October 2018 at 6:58 pm

      Interesting statement from him.

      “Because parliament exists to hold the executive to account and MPs have privilege to protect them from the executive when doing this. It is the basis of our democracy and should be carefully guarded.”

      And we know the executive was being held to account by Ross.
      Maybe there were some skeletons that the tapes would uncover.

  36. Muttonbird 36
    21 October 2018 at 6:58 pm

    It would be interesting to know who authorised the commitment. Who authorised the actual sending in of the police to take him away, presumably against his will if the police were involved.

    Then it would be interesting to know of all the communications between that person and the National Party and if any money changed hands.

    • Ed 36.1
      21 October 2018 at 7:00 pm

      As I said this news is either terrible or terrifying.

    • JohnSelway 36.2
      21 October 2018 at 7:00 pm

      The police are frequently called to mental health situations. It’s been a problem for years. It doesn’t have to be some kind of conspiracy

      • Drowsy M. Kram 36.2.1
        21 October 2018 at 9:12 pm

        Not suggesting that it has “to be some kind of conspiracy”, just that this can at least be considered as a (remote) possibility until more information is available. Do you know more?

        • JohnSelway 36.2.1.1
          21 October 2018 at 9:16 pm

          Based upon how the system works and that Ross has spoken to friends since being admitted and said nothing about being taken against his will the balance of probabilities is enough to call it as it seems.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 36.2.1.1.1
            21 October 2018 at 9:45 pm

            Thanks John. Think you’re probably right (and indeed genuinely hope that you are), but am reluctant to ‘call it’ just yet – it is, after all, very early days.

            Imagining myself in JLR’s shoes – entire working life in politics, National party and former best-buds just want me to go away (quietly), no tertiary qualifications to fall back on, and that CPL may have lost some of its value. Best option – get well, take the money and run.

    • marty mars 36.3
      21 October 2018 at 7:12 pm

      Exactly. Your real self is showing mutty and it ain’t pretty. You are way out of line.

    • Chuck 36.4
      21 October 2018 at 7:14 pm

      “Who authorised the actual sending in of the police to take him away, presumably against his will if the police were involved.”

      The police would have been on hand to ensure the safety of JLR and the mental health professionals who would have elevated JLR.

      Police have nothing to do with authorizing any commitment it is the mental health doctors.

      • veutoviper 36.4.1
        21 October 2018 at 8:01 pm

        And commitment is not instantaneous.

        So many ignorant people here who do not know the difference between two little words in this context –

        “ADMIT” vs “COMMIT”

    • JC 36.5
      21 October 2018 at 7:27 pm

      Anything to Staunch the Bleeding!

      Yes I’ve read comments above re Mental Health, and Safe Guards etc etc … I am not a Professional in that field, unlike others here. However I do happen to have some personal experience….

      I find this piece below telling. It would appear that the Natz have already reached out to Ross to SOUGHT things, i.e. “This week, (Ross), said, National MP Mark Mitchell visited him with what he alleged was a similar offer….. See below.

      https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/ross-says-many-mps-affairs

      Mr Ross said he had evidence against National from his time as the party whip.

      “I was the one who was asked to go out and do those things,” he said.

      He said he had a number of text messages between him and Sir John Key about a donation that had become difficult.

      “I was asked by John Key to go in and talk to the donor and see if there was something about the Labour Party that we could find out.

      “John Key and I ended up discussing that later on in text messages.”

      He also told how, when allegations were made against former MP Todd Barclay, he was the one sent around to be his “mate” and to push him towards leaving quietly.

      This week, he said, National MP Mark Mitchell visited him with what he alleged was a similar offer.

      “There was a point where I was in my apartment in Wellington laying on the couch … and I realised the same thing was happening to me,” he said.

      “It dawned on me, ‘I know this script, I helped write this script.’

      Checkpoint
      19 October at 17:47 •
      National MP Mark Mitchell says Jami-Lee Ross’ decision making is completely erratic and he’s concerned about his mental health and stability.

      “It just appears to me Jami-Lee has pushed the self-destruct button on himself …” – this follows Mr Ross pledging to remain in Parliament, admitting to having an affair with a married MP and releasing a second secret recording:

      https://tinyurl.com/JamiLeeAffairs

      “Ross was close to strategist Simon Lusk and Whaleoil blogger Cam Slater, both of whom became dynamite in National circles after Nicky Hager’s 2014 Dirty Politics book exposed the bare-knuckle campaign tactics they deployed.

      Lusk was Ross’ campaign advisor for the Botany byelection and Ross has confirmed he has been in touch with Lusk over the past week – although one source told the Herald Ross was not following Lusk’s advice.

      Slater said though he still considered Ross a friend, they had not had much to do with each other since Dirty Politics.

      He had been in touch over the past week, saying he had his own battles with depression and was worried about Ross’ mental health.

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12145566

      I hate to say it! But this looks All too good to be true.

      If I have that wrong, I sincerely apologise. I also hope the JLR has sincere support to work through this Shit!

      • Dukeofurl 36.5.1
        21 October 2018 at 8:01 pm

        Guess what. Mitchell was sent to provide info for national, as JLR had previously said – it’s part of their playbook- not to provide support at all

  37. Chris T 37
    21 October 2018 at 7:00 pm

    There are only two reasons he can be put in there and that is him being a threat to himself or others.

    I don’t think it takes Sherlock Holmes to work out it is probably the former.

    • Muttonbird 37.1
      21 October 2018 at 7:06 pm

      Well. He was a threat to others – the National Party.

      Not any more though.

      • Chris T 37.1.1
        21 October 2018 at 7:07 pm

        Really?

        He threatened to do imminent physical harm to them?

        Tell us more.

      • marty mars 37.1.2
        21 October 2018 at 7:09 pm

        Give it up. You know fuck all mate.

        • Muttonbird 37.1.2.1
          21 October 2018 at 7:23 pm

          Neither do you, mate.

          I’m asking for more information. You seem happy there isn’t any.

          • marty mars 37.1.2.1.1
            21 October 2018 at 7:26 pm

            I know that time will sort it. You seem to be reveling in the situation with all your speculations.

            • Muttonbird 37.1.2.1.1.1
              21 October 2018 at 7:39 pm

              I’m not reveling in anything – just trying to get to the bottom of this unprecedented event.

              If Ross has harmed himself or threatened to harm himself or his family then those are the only grounds I’d accept him being taken away.

              Otherwise, its just remarkably convenient for the National Party that Ross is now out of action probably permanently…

              Surely we the public have the right to know the basic events of what happened last night.

              • marty mars …
                21 October 2018 at 7:42 pm

                Keep at it I’m sure you’re getting what you want.

              • Chris T …
                21 October 2018 at 7:44 pm

                “Surely we the public have the right to know the basic events of what happened last night.”

                I don’t see you screaming the same demands for transparency with Ardern’s report into the Labour Party youth camp alleged assaults.

                Wonder why.

                • Muttonbird …
                  21 October 2018 at 7:50 pm

                  Jesus, the Labour camp again. Perhaps it’s because a whistleblower didn’t get carted off by police to a psychiatric hospital?

              • Ankerrawshark …
                21 October 2018 at 10:18 pm

                If Ross had become psychotic and lost touch with reality, or manic Ross might be taken by police to mental health unit. But I think that is extremely unlikely (although Nats would like us to think this way). There have been no signs of mania or psychosis of late, although there onset of a psychotic break can be rapid. Think more likely danger to himself.

                I hope he is getting the care he needs.

                • Muttonbird …
                  21 October 2018 at 10:25 pm

                  As Ed has linked to, the National Party as always are duplicitous in pretending they are looking after Jami Lee Ros while at the same time attacking him with the full force of their backers.

        • Dukeofurl 37.1.2.2
          21 October 2018 at 8:08 pm

          We have see JLR on the media. No sign of crisis at all that would change things from Fri afternoon on ZB and the police arriving say night. The first people to call would have been South Aucklnad CATT- you know trained and experienced staff, the police are definitely not the people who are qualified for this-
          We have seen before when the police raid notable people it’s always for political purposes and that legality has zero to do with it.
          Was Hagers house was raided was that really anything to do with some victimless crime and it was ‘pretty legal’

          • marty mars 37.1.2.2.1
            21 October 2018 at 8:17 pm

            You know his mental state from a day ago? Nah didn’t think so. You’re part of the problem, when you speculate ignorantly, with mental health in this country.

          • JohnSelway 37.1.2.2.2
            21 October 2018 at 8:32 pm

            When you called the CAT team the police are OFTEN sent because of our poor mental health services. It has happened to me before. This has been going for years and has already been pointed out to you. Stop making shit up about things you are clearly ignorant about.

    • Chris 37.2
      21 October 2018 at 7:51 pm

      Buy who decides he’s a threat to himself? That’s easily the most obvious excuse others would use to do things to him. “We’re here to help you, Jami-Lee”.

      • Ankerrawshark 37.2.1
        21 October 2018 at 10:21 pm

        Many people have suicidal ideation but don’t need the police. If he had of overdose ambulance called. Police called when someone about to attempt suicide

        • Chris 37.2.1.1
          21 October 2018 at 10:48 pm

          But that’s precisely the point. Who decides that someone is at risk of that? It’s very easy to manufacture circumstances that allow the call to be made. What follows is almost a fulfilling prophecy as far as the risk goes, whether the risk is real or not.

          • McFlock 37.2.1.1.1
            21 October 2018 at 10:59 pm

            from personal experience, if someone expresses suidical tendencies to you and you call the cops, they don’t have any power to detain, and can just have a chat, observe they’ve calmed down and take it no further.

            Or everyone can agree that maybe psych services is the best option.

            Or the subject has a full violent smash-up, gets held down and restrained by cops who take them to psych services, who observe the subject has calmed down and let them walk out almnost as soon as the cops have driven around the corner.

            Or, after the paperwork described elsewhere, the subject might be compulsorily detained for assessment for a couple of days, and after that it’s court order time with more paperwork.

            It’s not as simple as making something up and the chaps with the butterfly net and long sleeve jacket take them away.

          • mauī 37.2.1.1.2
            21 October 2018 at 11:03 pm

            What about a text messager who says if you continue an investigation it could push them over the edge and put their life at risk?

            If genuine that person is at risk I would say.

  38. SPC 38
    21 October 2018 at 7:33 pm

    Should National enact waka jumping legislation to remove him from parliament he would within about a month (there is a 21 day period involved in the process) or so lose parliamentary privilege.

    • Dukeofurl 38.1
      21 October 2018 at 7:51 pm

      Bridges would have to lie to say JLR was affecting the proportionality when the real reason is he is rogue mp who is spilling secrets.

      • SPC 38.1.1
        21 October 2018 at 8:04 pm

        There would be no evidence that Ross being outside the National caucus impacted on the proportionality until he voted differently to them – this is what Mallard should require, actual evidence.

        • SPC 38.1.1.1
          21 October 2018 at 8:16 pm

          Then maybe not – AG has observed that Courts have already determined, under past legislation, that simply leaving caucus is grounds for the Speaker to regard proportionality impacted.

          • Chris 38.1.1.1.1
            21 October 2018 at 8:55 pm

            That’s precisely the point and where the debate will be. The problem for the nats is that Ross said he’d continue to vote with them. This means leaving caucus is the only thing the nats have to convince Mallard the proportionality of Parliament’s been affected. There’s no guarantee Mallard will say that, but regardless of anything, even if Mallard does, it’s the 21 days Ross would be afforded to run amok that the nats are frightened of. That’s why they’ve gone down the mental health road. Who knows what actually happened, but Ross was collected from his electorate office. The nats could’ve easily got someone in to manufacture a crisis (even his wife) then bring in the mob. We’re coming to take you away. Contrary to the reports of some, this story hasn’t peaked.

    • JC 39.1
      21 October 2018 at 7:46 pm

      Some legislative safe Guards, i.e.

      (2) Where a member of Parliament is received or detained in a hospital in accordance with an inpatient order made under Part 2 of the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act 1992, the person in charge of that hospital shall, as soon as may be, give notice to the Speaker of the reception or detention.

      (3) Where the Speaker receives a notice under subsection (1) or subsection (2), the Speaker shall forthwith transmit the notice to the Director-General of Health, who, together with some medical practitioner named by the Speaker, shall without delay visit and examine the member to whom the notice relates, and shall report to the Speaker whether the member is mentally disordered.

      This must be so “Embarassing”

      #Hang in there JLR !Oh I forgot he dosen’t have a phone

      I trust there will be more dignity shown in the coming Hours, and Days!

    • SPC 39.2
      21 October 2018 at 8:19 pm

      AG believes that National would not exercise the MP’s removal from parliament while he is unwell – thus would allow him to return and exercise parliamentary privilege for the month removing him would then take?

      Time will tell.

      • Chris 39.2.1
        21 October 2018 at 9:03 pm

        That’s why they’ve got Ross locked up under the mental health rules. It’s the 21 days Ross would’ve otherwise had to go nuclear that they’re scared of. It’s the lifting the bedsheets thing that’s rattled the nats, for sure.

        The only thing the nats are doing right now is buying time. If Ross goes ballistic then he goes ballistic, and that can happen later, regardless. The nats just want time so they can buy Ross off. A couple of mil could just do that. Small change for that lot.

  40. veutoviper 40
    21 October 2018 at 7:43 pm

    The ignorance etc here is unbelievable …

  42. JohnSelway 42
    21 October 2018 at 7:49 pm

    Fuck some people here are right dicks.

    As a sufferer if mental health issues I have to say mental health support is hard enough and complex enough to not require conspiracies about it.

    Ross is obviously ill and using it to hammer National is in poor taste indeed.

    Get a fucking grip

    • veutoviper 42.1
      21 October 2018 at 7:54 pm

      John, kia kaha e hoa. I feel this is going to be a deciding time for many of us.

      See 40 and 40.1 above. You are not alone.

      See you already found us, friend.

    • Muttonbird 42.2
      21 October 2018 at 7:54 pm

      Ironic that National ran down mental health services to crisis point.

    • Dukeofurl 42.3
      21 October 2018 at 7:57 pm

      Not I’ll at all. He’s been amazingly calm collected and coherent under enormous pressure.

      Where’s the counties Manukau intake and assessment team CATT who would normally be the go to people when someone is in dire need.
      However called the police weren’t thinking of Ross first but rather wider political needs

      • JohnSelway 42.3.1
        21 October 2018 at 8:00 pm

        The police are OFTEN the ones responsible for picking people up. It has gone on for YEARS. Jesus, Labour even made a point of fixing it

        • Dukeofurl 42.3.1.1
          21 October 2018 at 8:18 pm

          These are people roaming the streets, smashing up their homes or other anti social behaviour… Ross was working in his office in the evening.
          Is this signs of mental illness..working..?

          • Carolyn_Nth 42.3.1.1.1
            21 October 2018 at 8:19 pm

            He could have tried to top himself.

          • JohnSelway 42.3.1.1.2
            21 October 2018 at 8:20 pm

            I have had been picked up from my own home by the police after calling the CAT team. It happens all the time. It isn’t just “people roaming the streets”. This is something Labour has acknowledged also.

            Get it right.

            • Muttonbird 42.3.1.1.2.1
              21 October 2018 at 8:36 pm

              Can I ask the question; why do you as a mental health sufferer in the past still support the National Party after what they did to mental health services in this country?

              Why indeed do you support the National Party when their policies contribute to increased hardship for the vulnerable. When their policies contribute to increased movement and displacement of vulnerable families. When their policies contribute to shrinking social housing stock. When their policies put pressure on the stability and continuity of communities?

              Why do you even support the National Party after what you have witnessed this week?

              • JohnSelway …
                21 October 2018 at 8:45 pm

                Excuse me? I have never supported the National Party. Where did you get that horseshit?

                • Muttonbird …
                  21 October 2018 at 8:47 pm

                  By your constant defence of them on this website.

                  • JohnSelway …
                    21 October 2018 at 8:47 pm

                    What the fuck are you talking about? Where have I defended the national Party?

                  • marty mars …
                    21 October 2018 at 9:22 pm

                    So you begin eh. Weakling.

                    • Muttonbird …
                      21 October 2018 at 9:44 pm

                      I’ve accepted your explanation of editing after a reply without comment yet you continue to attack me for asking questions of a National Party supporter?

                      Open your fucking eyes Marty!

                    • marty mars …
                      21 October 2018 at 10:04 pm

                      I quite like some of your comments on a wide variety of subjects and other comments of yours I find disgusting. You aren’t right all the time.

                      I don’t care if you comment back on my apology to you. Either accept it or don’t.

                    • Muttonbird …
                      21 October 2018 at 10:13 pm

                      We are all complex. I have asked today what influence the National Party had on the convenient medical incarceration of Jami Lee Ross.

                      You and others have attacked me for asking that question.

                      Whatever. I am not as squeamish as some others on depression and anxiety – I myself having had medicated conditions in the past.

                      I am very concerned that the events on the long weekend are linked with a silencing of dissent rather than a medical necessity.

                      That is my position.

                    • marty mars …
                      21 October 2018 at 10:31 pm

                      Yep. My position is that the info will come out. Speculation around mental illness often stigmatized the many who suffer from mental distress or/and illness. I was shocked by the amount of misinformation regarding mental illness and the solid processes in place to protect people on this site tonight.

                      I also have never, not once, supported the gnats on anything on this blog, ever.

                      Sure some may think there are gnat plants on here ready to go for the reveal tonight. I find fact much stranger than fiction. I just know from working in mental health specifically supporting suicidal people that it is always complicated, traumatic and scarey. I can’t stand jlr but I can feel empathy with anyone suffering.

          • marty mars 42.3.1.1.3
            21 October 2018 at 8:21 pm

            You don’t know so why speculate?

            • Dennis Frank 42.3.1.1.3.1
              21 October 2018 at 8:25 pm

              Human nature. If we didn’t speculate, not only would this blog probably have to close down due to lack of contributions, but the entire cultural life of western civilisation would shrivel up & die…

              • marty mars …
                21 October 2018 at 8:32 pm

                Bullshit Dennis. Many have been told of the ignorance of their comments by people that know but arrogance continue. There is no good reason for that imo.

                • Dennis Frank …
                  21 October 2018 at 8:43 pm

                  True, many of us are or have been ignorant of those technical legal details and way the police operate in respect of mental health. In that respect the info is helpful, but we’re a microcosm of the public, so our speculation about other motives at play are typical of what everyone will be discussing now & for days to come.

                  • marty mars …
                    21 October 2018 at 8:51 pm

                    Yeah I get it. I still think it’s wrong and damaging to people. But tough for them they’re not like us – except they are exactly like us. When you get that you’ll gain a great amount of insight Dennis.

          • JohnSelway 42.3.1.1.4
            21 October 2018 at 8:22 pm

            Over half mental health call outs are for non-emergencys

            https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/health/99735922/a-growing-emergency-why-are-cops-looking-after-mental-health-patients-in-crisis

            Stop talking about shit you don’t know about

        • Delia 42.3.2.1
          21 October 2018 at 11:22 pm

          Stuff off if you cannot debate politely here, nothing but a trouble maker. Yes there is a difference between voluntary and compulsory admission to a mental health unit. I am sure you can look both up you seem pretty clever.

      • veutoviper 42.3.3
        21 October 2018 at 8:07 pm

        Re your second para, see my 23.4 and 36.3.1.

        • Ankerrawshark 42.3.3.1
          21 October 2018 at 10:28 pm

          Many people have suicidal ideation but don’t need the police. If he had of overdose ambulance called. Police called when someone about to attempt suicide

          • McFlock 42.3.3.1.1
            21 October 2018 at 11:25 pm

            or put their fist through a window at night because they thought they saw a demon in it.

    • Anne 42.4
      21 October 2018 at 8:05 pm

      Ross is obviously ill and using it to hammer National is in poor taste indeed.

      Get a fucking grip

      Oh come on JohnSelway. National has a case to answer and it has been on display over the past few days.

      No, I don’t go along with the conspiracy theories either, but National up until this point have badly handled this affair. We have every right to pass comment on as much.

      It does not take away the serious situation for JLR and I hope everyone – including his former colleagues – give him a chance to properly heal.

      • JohnSelway 42.4.1
        21 October 2018 at 8:07 pm

        I’m not the one suggesting National organised to have Ross committed….

        • veutoviper 42.4.1.1
          21 October 2018 at 8:09 pm

          See my 36.3.1.

          • Ankerrawshark 42.4.1.1.1
            21 October 2018 at 10:32 pm

            ok Everybody this is a very emotional issue so understandable emotions running high. Let’s just try and stay calm and compassionate about all those who have been effected by mental ill health, including jami-Lee

            I hope those on this thread who shared their history of mental health issues are ok. And reach out to those in your networks or the mental health lines if you need too

        • Anne 42.4.1.2
          21 October 2018 at 8:15 pm

          You are talking in riddles JohnSelway. I..am.. talking.. about.. how National.. has.. handled.. the.. matter.. over.. the.. past.. week. Nothing to do with who did or didn’t commit Ross this week-end.

      • Chris 42.4.2
        21 October 2018 at 10:27 pm

        I wouldn’t be surprised if Ross is actually okay at the moment and the nats have seized upon the mental health issue because that’s all they’ve got to try to halt the 21 days Ross will have to exact what is in their view untold damage. If the nats think someone’s getting too close that’s the kind of thing they resort to.

    • Kahu 42.5
      24 October 2018 at 7:40 pm

      Tell that to the Nats if JLR is unwell and they’re using that to shut him down/hammer him. Just because you’re paranoid, don’t mean they’re not after you lol.

  43. McFlock 43
    21 October 2018 at 7:53 pm

    dunno about JLR, but apparently there’s no shortage of paranoiacs around here…

    • Dennis Frank 43.1
      21 October 2018 at 8:14 pm

      It’s the look of the thing. Clarification of the law around it helps reduce the concern level, so thanks to those here doing that. But just imagine how this is playing out around the country without such reassurance! Headline News: State Agents Remove Member of Parliament From Electorate Office, Secure Him In Mental Health Unit.

      Sounds like North Korea. Or Saudi Arabia on a good day. Has his phone really been taken from him? No confirmation, but he’s being held incommunicado, isn’t he? Taken last night, news deliberately withheld from public until five o’clock this evening. Why wouldn’t people be suspicious?

      • JohnSelway 43.1.1
        21 October 2018 at 8:17 pm

        Because someone’s health is private business. Where the fuck did you get “deliberately withheld”?

        • marty mars 43.1.1.1
          21 October 2018 at 8:20 pm

          He made it up.

        • greywarshark 43.1.1.2
          21 October 2018 at 8:31 pm

          Our MPs are elected on the basis that they are mentally capable. We aren’t talking about the Madness of King George here. We are not supposed to have to tip-toe around fragile leaders and bombastic oddities, not in NZ anyway. Perhaps in the Home of Democracy.

        • Dennis Frank 43.1.1.3
          21 October 2018 at 8:33 pm

          No, John, the public interest trumps that. An MP in the headlines as a whistle-blower, who says he’s exposing corruption in the National Party, is acting in the public interest. Why can’t you understand that? And if you think the news embargo has an innocent explanation, you must be rather naive. We need an explanation from the police: why didn’t they inform the media promptly?

          • Dukeofurl 43.1.1.3.1
            21 October 2018 at 8:37 pm

            Yes. You can bet the national party knew very quickly…..my view is they have been working on this for the last few days

          • JohnSelway 43.1.1.3.2
            21 October 2018 at 8:40 pm

            Public interest does NOT trump medical confidentiality. Are you suggesting the Hippocratic Oath has an out for media interest?

            Stop displaying your ignorance.

            “We need an explanation from the police: why didn’t they inform the media promptly?”

            Because of the above you idiot.

            • Dennis Frank 43.1.1.3.2.1
              21 October 2018 at 8:49 pm

              No, I didn’t mean it the way you took it. I meant the public interest will have to prevail over any attempt to use privacy law to hide behaviour that is either illegal, immoral or evil – if any such is happening. Public concern on this point is entirely valid. Some of us are articulating it. I suspect we are the leading edge of a tsunami. The longer the authorities try to prevent the truth getting out, the larger the tsunami will get.

              There’s no need to be abusive. And you failed to answer my question. Ah, that’s now irrelevant: I see at 46 Ed is informing us that the Herald is reporting he was taken in sunday afternoon, so looks like the earlier report that it happened saturday night was wrong…

              • McFlock …
                21 October 2018 at 10:40 pm

                Bullshit.

                If he goes in for a couple few days, it’s his business. Everyone else can shit bricks about it, but nobody has a right to know what his issues are unless he says.

                If his wife and family start asking questions, then go for it. But a simple admission owes you no information whatsoever.

                • Michael who failed Civics …
                  22 October 2018 at 2:03 pm

                  It wasn’t a “simple admission”. The media reports say JLR was “committed”. There’s a difference and it’s why the word “Compulsory” is included in the Short Title of the mental health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act 1992. Normally, I’d agree with people who say someone’s mental health is their own business (and their immediate family’s). But in this case we have a public figure, the Leader of the Opposition’s right-hand man (until falling out over alleged issues of political corruption), going public with his concerns and “evidence” (whether compelling or otherwise). Now he’s under lock and key wiht no cellphone. This is news.

                  • McFlock …
                    22 October 2018 at 5:43 pm

                    I don’t recall that from reports yesterday. Reports today attribute that claim to unnamed sources. So it might be true, it might just be a wee bit of icing.

                    When JLR gets out, we’ll see who’s right.

      • veutoviper 43.1.2
        21 October 2018 at 8:24 pm

        Whoever wrote that Newstalk ZB/Herald initial report should be sacked immediately – forget employment law.

        OTOH it could well cost Mediaworks lots of $$$$$ ….

        • Dukeofurl 43.1.2.1
          21 October 2018 at 8:41 pm

          Public interest.. happened plenty of times before.

          • JohnSelway 43.1.2.1.1
            21 October 2018 at 8:44 pm

            Why don’t you pay attention. Public interest does not trump medical confidentiality.

            • Dukeofurl 43.1.2.1.1.1
              21 October 2018 at 8:58 pm

              Where were you all week as national mps did remote diagnosis of Ross?

              Ross previously told how he’s was railroaded in his so called 2 months leave by Bridges, he later said they told him that was the start of his quiet dismissal

    • Carolyn_Nth 43.2
      21 October 2018 at 8:18 pm

      No, just some people who have learned from experience: e.g. Police raiding Nicky Hager’s house, then being found to have done so unlawfully.

  44. Muttonbird 44
    21 October 2018 at 8:06 pm

    Well. I just hope Jami Lee Ross rebuilds his life to a point where he is happy and has a positive relationship with his children.

    I also hope he continues (and is allowed to continue) on his road to Damascus, and follows through on exposing the inner workings of a morally corrupt National Party.

    New Zealand needs Jami Lee Ross to speak, not to be silenced.

  45. Dennis Frank 45
    21 October 2018 at 8:22 pm

    Andrew Geddis just posted on Pundit that it isn’t a voluntary committal. That means someone did it to him, right? Political implications for him following that from Andrew, with legal details, I’ll just include this summary: “in essence, if Ross gets committed into compulsory mental health care by a Family Court Judge, and if he’s still in that care six months from now, then his seat becomes vacant at that point.”

    • Ed 45.1
      21 October 2018 at 8:24 pm

      Thanks for the research.
      Dodgy scary stuff if any truth in it.

      • Dukeofurl 45.1.1
        21 October 2018 at 8:33 pm

        Yeah but the speaker has to have a doctor check him out. At that time.
        There’s is no way JLR went from calm coherent and able to do media interviews on Fri to having to police turn up sat night not a skilled mental health team

        • marty mars 45.1.1.1
          21 October 2018 at 8:37 pm

          You are ignorant. You’re just speculating from that ignorance.

        • Carolyn_Nth 45.1.1.2
          21 October 2018 at 8:38 pm

          He could have been trying to top himself, or been physically violent towards someone else.

          • Kahu 45.1.1.2.1
            24 October 2018 at 7:48 pm

            could’ve schmould’ve. No evidence of that. No one with him in office at time when police arrived?. No evidence he called them himself which begs the question …who called the cops to section him? Or did the cops go there to meet him, threaten him? JLR tells them to bugger off then they take him “for his own good” …not implausible that this happened or that they they took a presigned doctor’s order.

        • JohnSelway 45.1.1.3
          21 October 2018 at 8:39 pm

          Several times now – the police often respond to mental health callouts and your comment about how JLR seemed calm and coherent so he mustn’t have been unwell shows a profound ignorance of mental health.

          Stop making shit up

          • Dukeofurl 45.1.1.3.1
            21 October 2018 at 8:47 pm

            Yeah right …they are stretched enough as it is so they take in people who are otherwise functioning well….
            They have staff who work exclusively for those unwell who can live at home or even go to work.
            He’s been set up..ask Hager how they use a veneer of legality to get what they really want

            • JohnSelway 45.1.1.3.1.1
              21 October 2018 at 8:50 pm

              It’s been in the news constantly:
              https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/health/99735922/a-growing-emergency-why-are-cops-looking-after-mental-health-patients-in-crisis

              Labour are making a noise about it too:
              https://www.labour.org.nz/mental_health_a_huge_cost_for_police

              It’s happened to me. You don’t know what the fuck you are talking about.

              • Dukeofurl …
                21 October 2018 at 9:00 pm

                What was your trigger that meant the police were called and you were removed from home or work…..

                • JohnSelway …
                  21 October 2018 at 9:03 pm

                  I called the CAT team who sent the police. I already told you and it has been pointed out to you SEVERAL FUCKING TIMES that the police often attend mental health callouts. It’s in the news, Labour want to fix the problem and it happens all the time. And they don’t “remove you” – you call for help and instead of receiving an ambulance, the police come because our system is fucked.

                  How many fucking times do you need to be told the same thing? Are you seriously this ignorant of the state of mental health in this country?

                  • Cantabrian …
                    21 October 2018 at 10:53 pm

                    What did you say to the CAT team John?

                    • JohnSelway …
                      21 October 2018 at 10:55 pm

                      That is was worried I was going to hurt myself and I had no family or friends to call. I had taken some pills so I don’t remember it all very well though.

                      They sent the police because the CAT team is vastly understaffed and the police were absolutely fantastic and understanding. Not really their job though.

                    • joe90 …
                      21 October 2018 at 11:06 pm

                      John, a few years back I had a mare of a time looking after an ill relative and I can’t speak highly enough about the young coppers who saved the day when things went badly.

            • KJT 45.1.1.3.1.2
              21 October 2018 at 9:28 pm

              Happens all the time.
              Police have to fill in for Crisis teams, because they are overstretched.

          • Kahu 45.1.1.3.2
            24 October 2018 at 7:59 pm

            You show a profound ignorance of how the system can be gamed & what is this… the witch trials If you float you’re guilty (even if you seem well you’re still mental according to some official ie witchfinder general) if you drown you’re innocent but you’ll get your reward in heaven (if you get slurred with accusations about mental behaviour & behaviour with women and react to it, getting angry/upset …oh, well that just proves your madness not-LOl and if you’re out of the way for 5-14/19 days found sane then everything’s okay even though Nats achieved their aim of shutting down the dissenter. It is fundamental truth that from time of Stalinist Russia accusations of mental illness were used to shut away dissidents. every where there is a dictatorship this tactic has been used as it used to this day in China, North Korea. The evidence of Chinese meddling in NZ politics & this gameplan taken from the Chinese playbook makes one sit up & take notice does it not. Zhang is an agent of CCP UF & his association used to launder donations is a CCP-UF Front.

        • Cricklewood 45.1.1.4
          21 October 2018 at 9:38 pm

          You’ve got no fucking clue.
          You can function at a seemingly high level around others by putting up a facade (which is exhausting.) It’s very possible the reality of his personal life falling apart and contemplating the effects it could have on his kids for years to come hit like a tonne of bricks especially if he was alone.

          There are no winners here and you have to feel for his kids who will no doubt be able read all this crap in years to come.

    • Carolyn_Nth 45.2
      21 October 2018 at 8:27 pm

      Geddis has just been going on the media reports (he links to the original NZH report). And he’s wrong. There have been no reports of JLR being committed at this stage.

    • veutoviper 45.3
      21 October 2018 at 8:28 pm

      Just read it. I expect a correction very quickly despite the fact Geddis is going on holiday – otherwise he could live to regret his sloppy wording. Not a good look for a law professor.

      • Dukeofurl 45.3.1
        21 October 2018 at 8:35 pm

        Not the first time… He trys to be over everything but his legal specialty is very narrow area.
        Think of our other well known legal prof..Wayne.

    • Chris T 45.4
      21 October 2018 at 8:32 pm

      It means someone very close to him was about his behaviour

      The cops and a mental health assessor get called out and find he is an imminent danger to himself or someone else and request from a judge, who on their advice signs it off.

      Now unless the police, who national are no longer in charge of, the mental health assessor and the judge are either all part of a massive National Party conspiracy, corrupt, or incredibly niave and easily duped, I think it is safe to say Ross was in very serious need of help, whether he wanted it or not.

      • marty mars 45.4.1
        21 October 2018 at 8:39 pm

        Yep. But the ignorant will ignore all that. They’d rather speculate and say fuck you to any reader of this blog who has mental health concerns.

        • Dukeofurl 45.4.1.1
          21 October 2018 at 9:09 pm

          What if one of those who had previously said medical leave was a con job

          What if that person was Jami Lee Ross

          https://twitter.com/jamileeross/status/1051622475769950209

          • JohnSelway 45.4.1.1.1
            21 October 2018 at 9:12 pm

            And according to Ross’s friends they have spoke to him since he was admitted and weirdly he isn’t saying anything about how he was forcibly removed from his office by people and put into care.

            But I’m sure you have a conspiracy for that too.

            You have shown profound ignorance of mental health, displayed no knowledge of how the system works, made repeated errors despite being shown how you were wrong and continue to make spurious claims even though most people have pointed out the errors you were making. Get a grip man

      • Pat 45.4.2
        21 October 2018 at 9:16 pm

        my understanding is he can be sectioned by a single psychiatrist and a Judge is not required to examine/question the patient for up to 14 days….and those 14 days can include enforced medication

    • Michael who failed Civics 45.5
      22 October 2018 at 2:04 pm

      Andrew knows his stuff about electoral and constitutional law. He’s worth listening to.

  46. Ed 46
    21 October 2018 at 8:37 pm

    More now from the Herald.

    “Ross was taken in by police on Sunday afternoon, and a source close to Ross told the Herald that Ross was “not in good shape” and “had been sectioned … people who go willingly aren’t sectioned”.
    Under the Mental Health Act, a person can be sectioned to a safe place against their will and given treatment if their safety is considered at risk.

    …..But the source told the Herald that the National Party was warned about pushing Ross too far on Monday, when Bridges and Bennett met with Ross about the PwC inquiry into Bridges’ leaked travel expenses.”

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12146405

    • Muttonbird 46.1
      21 October 2018 at 8:43 pm

      Oh dear. That is bad for National. Marty Mars will not be happy.

    • Carolyn_Nth 46.2
      21 October 2018 at 8:46 pm

      This update also says:

      It is understood the National Party is continuing to offer Ross support, though it is unclear it if was involved in Ross’ admission to the facility.

      Hopefully such things will be clarified.

      I hope JLR does recover soon as it sounds like a friend is saying he’s not in good shape.

      But it does not look good for the Nats, who pressed ahead with the lame leak inquiry and the report says they were told by a doctor that any more pressure put on him re the leak inquiry, would push JLR too far in terms of his mental health.

      • Muttonbird 46.2.1
        21 October 2018 at 8:50 pm

        Stunning that the Nats would run down mental health services for 9 years and then drive one of their own to tipping point because he outed some of their dodgy behaviour.

        Could we please sack this opposition and get another more compassionate one?

      • Dukeofurl 46.2.2
        21 October 2018 at 8:52 pm

        Support? They want to rip his throat out…….. But then politics is the art of the possible…they are behind this mark my words

    • CHCOff 46.3
      21 October 2018 at 8:46 pm

      Dragged off, locked up, & drugged???

      What a ROT!

      NZ is NOT China! Got it!!

    • Ed 46.4
      21 October 2018 at 9:08 pm

      “The National Party has taken seriously the mental health concerns raised by Mr Ross …”

      Does that include calling him a liar, a leaker, lashing out, embarrassing and exposing his personal life taking due care of an employee?

      https://mobile.twitter.com/Gruntie2

      • Muttonbird 46.4.1
        21 October 2018 at 9:16 pm

        Best post of the thread, Ed.

        It’s all there what the Nat machine did to Ross this week and for them to claim they were looking after him is yet another lie.

    • Fireblade 46.5
      21 October 2018 at 9:23 pm

      National were warned by the Mental Health Foundation for their use of insensitive language, but the insults and character assassinations just continued.

      Newshub 16 October 2018.

      https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/10/mental-health-foundation-slams-national-mps-for-insensitive-language.amp.html

  47. Muttonbird 47
    21 October 2018 at 8:46 pm

    And has anyone read from Stacy Kirk recently?

  48. Dukeofurl 48
    21 October 2018 at 9:06 pm

    Bridges has previously used spurious medical leave reasons to silence him

    JLR own words
    https://twitter.com/jamileeross/status/1051622475769950209

    ‘medical reasons’ is just another page in Nationals book of dirty politics

    • Ed 48.1
      21 October 2018 at 9:09 pm

      “This evidence led Simon to push me out on medical leave a few weeks ago. It was essentially an attempt to stop me from speaking publicly.

      I now have a duty to speak publicly on these matters. I will do so in coming days.”

    • mauī 48.2
      21 October 2018 at 10:13 pm

      Ross stated himself in his Parliament press conference that he had to get assistance and a doctor to clear him to return to work, and he basically said he could “see his world crashing down around him” when the 15 women allegations were made against him.

      He also implies having mental health issues in the past.. and just recently too…

      See how his tone changes and how emotional he gets when talking about Bridges reaction to the text message leaker who also had mental issues. He talks about “compassion” or lack thereof a lot there, I get the impression that he is deeply offended by Bridges attitude to the mentally unwell text leaker who it has been speculated is actually Ross…..

      I think he is not too well. See the 17-20 mins part of the video

      • Morriscat 48.2.1
        21 October 2018 at 10:42 pm

        On looking through this video he appears to be quite calm and rational. No sign of any instability at all and I would have thought it very unusual for someone’s mental state to deteriorate so quickly (a few days) that a section was required.

        Something very unusual here.

        Declaration of interest: mental health professional.

        • mauī 48.2.1.1
          22 October 2018 at 12:58 am

          What did you think when he said “the world came crashing down on me”? Or that he has required “assistance” from professionals to get back to work?

          Anything odd about his demeanor? Smiling while you destroy one’s career for just a bit of revenge? You don’t feel a little bit like you’re Alice tumbled down the rabbit hole?

  49. Dennis Frank 49
    21 October 2018 at 9:09 pm

    “Stuff has been told by a source close to Ross that the MP was taken to a mental health unit in Auckland late on Saturday evening after police visited him at his Botany electorate office. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/108009753/jamilee-ross-taken-into-mental-health-care

    “Newshub can confirm police took the MP to a facility in Auckland on Sunday.” RNZ is merely quoting the Herald. “Ross was picked up by police on Sunday, and a source close to Ross told the Herald that Ross was “not in good shape” and “had been sectioned … people who go willingly aren’t sectioned”. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12146405

    • Ed 49.1
      21 October 2018 at 9:11 pm

      So which is correct?

      • Dukeofurl 49.1.1
        21 October 2018 at 9:20 pm

        One just read the others story and changed a few words to make it look like they had their own storey.

      • Dennis Frank 49.1.2
        21 October 2018 at 9:22 pm

        Dunno, but Stuff is outnumbered by the others (ZB also), so we could assume majority rules, consensus of opinion has it for sunday. Interesting that the sunday reports are so vague on detail, though. No time given, no place either, whereas the Stuff report gives them. So in respect of accuracy of reporting and traditional media standards being adhered to, you’d have to choose Stuff.

        • El F. Gringo 49.1.2.1
          21 October 2018 at 11:05 pm

          This inconsistency is very strange. I am very surprised there has not been a short statement from the family or Police confirming when, why and the process under which he is being detained. This is a sitting MP not an ordinary citizen. Only once that is clear can he be left to recover.

      • mary_a 49.1.3
        21 October 2018 at 10:08 pm

        Hi Ed (49.1) … Yes there is some conflicting information there!

        If it was necessary to section Ross because he was “not in good shape” when he was taken to hospital by police, then I sincerely hope he is able to receive the care and support he deserves to return him back to good health. I wish him well in that respect.

        However, if something sinister is afoot, attempting to silence a whistle blower, then I think we should all be scared!

    • SPC 49.2
      21 October 2018 at 9:54 pm

      If Ross was staying in the electorate office (not at the family home) overnight Saturday, it might have led to a police visit and his later being taken to a place for an assessment – overnight stay before being sectioned on the Sunday afternoon?

  50. Incognito 50
    21 October 2018 at 9:19 pm

    What happens with the vote of an Independent MP when they’re on (sick) leave?

  51. Ed 51
    21 October 2018 at 9:19 pm

    Lee on Twitter.

    “So I ask: rather than just accepting the dittoheaded assurances that they had nothing to do with it, none of which are obviously better-informed than my reckons, let’s have an explanation as to why the National party is commenting on the case if they are not involved.”

  52. Ken 52
    21 October 2018 at 9:37 pm

    Who’s got JLR’s phone?

  53. CHCOff 53
    21 October 2018 at 9:42 pm

    Any coercions or threats to Mr JL Ross, should have it’s participants locked up until further notice. This is a New Zealand security issue and a line needs to be drawn.

    • Muttonbird 53.1
      21 October 2018 at 9:46 pm

      +1

      The happenings this Labour weekend are a real threat to New Zealand’s future.

      Time for the Prime Minister to step in.

  54. Pat 54
    21 October 2018 at 9:45 pm

    There are up to three assessment stages:

    1. Preliminary assessment – this is carried out by a clinician, usually a psychiatrist, and occurs after someone has applied to the Director of Area Mental Health Services (DAMHS), through a GP, to have you assessed. You will get all the information about your assessment, e.g. the time and place, the name of the doctor and what the appointment is for. You don’t have the right to refuse assessment, and the Police may get involved if necessary to ensure you turn up.

    2. If the preliminary assessment finds there are reasonable grounds for believing you have a mental disorder then there will be further assessment and treatment for up to five days.

    3. Before the end of the five day period the clinician must decide whether you have a mental disorder and require further assessment or treatment. If they do you can be held for further assessment and treatment for up to 14 days – by the end of this period the clinician decides whether you are well enough to be released (in which case no further treatment or assessment is given). If not, they must apply for a compulsory treatment order.

    http://www.cab.org.nz/vat/hw/leg/Pages/MentalHealthAct.aspx#8At any stage during the assessment stage, you have the right to ask that a judge reviews the doctor’s decision. If you are unable to apply for a review yourself, one of the following people can do so on your behalf:

    the person who applied for the assessment of you
    your principle caregiver (if there is one)
    your GP
    your welfare guardian, if there is one
    a District Inspector

    http://www.cab.org.nz/vat/hw/leg/Pages/MentalHealthAct.aspx#8

    • AsleepWhileWalking 54.1
      21 October 2018 at 9:50 pm

      Thanks for that. I knew there was a judge somewhere but given this is a long w/end that’s not particularly helpful.

    • Dennis Frank 54.2
      21 October 2018 at 9:55 pm

      It was mentioned on Q+A twenty minutes ago that he’ll be held incommunicado for five days. Highly effective way of closing down a whistle-blower, to give wrong-doers plenty of time to establish a significant advantage.

      I wonder if anyone here will try to defend the use of the privacy law to eliminate his civil rights? Will collusion in moral corruption be tempting enough for them?

      • Pat 54.2.1
        21 October 2018 at 10:16 pm

        the burning question is who requested the assessment?…his wife?a family member?…or someone else?

      • mary_a 54.2.2
        22 October 2018 at 7:49 pm

        @ Dennis Frank (54.2) …

        “… Highly effective way of closing down a whistle-blower, to give wrong-doers plenty of time to establish a significant advantage.”

        True and let’s face it, a rational and coherent JLR seemed to keep one step ahead of Bridges, Bennett et al last week! Certainly not the actions of a man needing sectioning via the Mental Health Act a few days later IMO.

        • Dennis Frank 54.2.2.1
          22 October 2018 at 8:00 pm

          Although could be explained as a tipping point effect. You hold it all together as pressure builds, lose it at the tipping point. Did you see what Cameron Slater reported on his blog? Ross was taken Saturday night from his electorate office. The authorities never told his wife. Slater did, after having to spend hours trying to find the facts, around the middle of Sunday.

        • solkta 54.2.2.2
          22 October 2018 at 8:10 pm

          True and let’s face it, a rational and coherent JLR seemed to keep one step ahead of Bridges, Bennett et al last week! Certainly not the actions of a man needing sectioning via the Mental Health Act a few days later IMO.

          and you are a psychiatrist yes?

  55. Carolyn_Nth 55
    21 October 2018 at 9:55 pm

    Hmmm. So, the latest from Stuff:

    Stuff has been told that National assigned a senior MP and former police officer, Mark Mitchell, to support Ross, but Ross cut off all contact the day before his expulsion from the National caucus on Tuesday.

    He is now being supported by a small group of friends including political consultant Simon Lusk and right wing blogger Cameron Slater, aka Whaleoil, it is understood.

    Well, I hope these people do turn out to be supportive for JLR. And/or that the health care professionals do help him recover.

    And in the NZH update, Farrar is blaming the women who spoke out about JLR’s harassment for pushing JLR over the edge.

    Farrar said that the women speaking out would have exacerbated an already difficult situation.

    The women only spoke out because the National Party suppressed info about the harassment, and didn’t allowed JLR to continue with harassment.

    • JohnSelway 55.1
      21 October 2018 at 9:57 pm

      Pretty sure those around him would be crying bloody murder if Ross was forcibly detained at the behest of National/Bridges.

      Hope we can close this line of conspiracy now

      • Carolyn_Nth 55.1.1
        21 October 2018 at 10:00 pm

        It’s important to ask questions until we get an adequate explanation. Getting answers will resolve that.

        • JohnSelway 55.1.1.1
          21 October 2018 at 10:08 pm

          There’s asking questions which is fine. But then there’s stating wild conjecture as fact

      • Muttonbird 55.1.2
        21 October 2018 at 10:30 pm

        Hey dickhead. Ross has no-one around him.

        • JohnSelway 55.1.2.1
          21 October 2018 at 10:32 pm

          Apart from those it is said in the latest Stuff update that are supporting him.

          But you probably know best based upon what you make up

          • Muttonbird 55.1.2.1.1
            21 October 2018 at 10:36 pm

            That you are infesting this site on the news Jami Lee Ross has been locked up speaks volumes…

            • JohnSelway 55.1.2.1.1.1
              21 October 2018 at 10:40 pm

              Locked up? JLR has been locked up?

              Says who?

              • Muttonbird …
                21 October 2018 at 10:42 pm

                Is Jami Lee Ross voluntarily allowed to leave the current situation he is in?

                • JohnSelway …
                  21 October 2018 at 10:43 pm

                  That’s depends on a lot of factors but in most cases yes, yes he can.

                  • Muttonbird …
                    21 October 2018 at 10:46 pm

                    That is not the case. If he tried to walk away from the facility he is in today he would be prevented from doing so.

                    • JohnSelway …
                      21 October 2018 at 10:51 pm

                      No that is not the case at all. I have been admitted for mental health reasons twice and have walked out. Once the next day, once after 8 hours. The same way you can check yourself out if you have a broken leg. They might not want you to leave – but you can’t be stoped.

                      It’s not very easy to section someone against there will.

                      You are talking shit.

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      21 October 2018 at 10:52 pm

                      See 54.2 – it was said with assurance as if it were fact, but hell, what do politicians & media know about mental health law? Boag later predicted a quiet political week ahead. So she thinks the system has him thoroughly gagged. And not if polls break out tomorrow night!

                    • Muttonbird …
                      21 October 2018 at 10:58 pm

                      Fine John. You have a few things to get through and I sympathise.

                      It doesn’t fit with your rabid defence of the National Party of New Zealand though.

                    • JohnSelway …
                      21 October 2018 at 11:00 pm

                      Evidence of my rabid defense of national or stfu

                  • Muttonbird …
                    21 October 2018 at 11:05 pm

                    Shut up, dick.

                    The Prime Minister needs to make a statement on all this. She needs to right the ship and let Kiwis know that they are not beholden to this corrupt cesspool that is the National Party of New Zealand.

                    • joe90 …
                      21 October 2018 at 11:07 pm

                      You really are a vile piece of work.

                    • Muttonbird …
                      21 October 2018 at 11:15 pm

                      Sorry Joe90.

                      95% of your comments are US specific. You have a major hard on for US politics at the expense of ordinary people in NZ which I note you never advocate for.

                      You simply do not care for underprivileged communities in NZ. You don’t spare a thought for the hardships of forced movement of households and the crippling of children’s futures by having to migrate schools and streets every six months.

                      You are obesssed with America, you shit.

                      How about obsessing with New Zealand?

                      Fuck you!

                    • joe90 …
                      21 October 2018 at 11:37 pm

                      If you weren’t a fucking blow-in come lately you’d be aware of my contributions to TS over many years and I’d venture that I’ve contributed a damn sight more IRL to the union movement, my community and those less fortunate than myself than you could possibly imagine.

                      But hey, keep up with your inane fuckwittery and all round shit personage and one day, the sewer will welcome you with open arms.

                    • Muttonbird …
                      21 October 2018 at 11:43 pm

                      I’ve been here for a few years, you piece of crap. AlI I see from you day after day after day is trivial memes on America and nothing else.

                      You claim you contribute to the union movement but your postings here don’t back that up at all.

                      Please link to where you gave a shit about NZ families.

                    • joe90 …
                      21 October 2018 at 11:49 pm

                      Please link

                      I would you insufferable fool, but apparently The Standard’s search engine is not good when looking for commenter’s posts.

                    • Muttonbird …
                      21 October 2018 at 11:51 pm

                      You can’t search your own beliefs? That is telling.

                    • joe90 …
                      21 October 2018 at 11:59 pm

                      And alleviate your festering ignorance, nah.

                    • Muttonbird …
                      22 October 2018 at 12:04 am

                      Ok. Stand by for a response to every single US comment you post whenever I am able.

                      Unless you actually back up what you claimed on working for the NZ union movement. Feel free to link to all the posts where you were concerned about working families in New Zealand…

                    • joe90 …
                      22 October 2018 at 12:08 am

                      You’re going to stalk me with your astonishingly unnatural level of stupidity?

                      I can hardly wait!.

                    • Muttonbird …
                      22 October 2018 at 12:29 am

                      Yeah, Trump for brains. That’s exactly what I’m going to do.

                      Your only contribution to this forum is finally going to be critiqued.

                      Unless you begin posting about the raw conditions which underprivileged families and their children in NZ are forced to live.

                  • Michael who failed Civics …
                    22 October 2018 at 2:06 pm

                    Not if he has been committed under the provisions of the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act 1992. If he is a committed patient, he does have the right to challenge his detention but it takes time to arrange a hearing etc.

    • JC 55.2
      21 October 2018 at 10:44 pm

      Thanks Carolyn.

      Just seems inconsistent with what JLR has said earlier re Mr Mitchell!

      https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/ross-says-many-mps-affairs

      …. “This week, he said, National MP Mark Mitchell visited him with what he alleged was a similar offer.” ….

      “There was a point where I was in my apartment in Wellington laying on the couch … and I realised the same thing was happening to me,” he said.

      “It dawned on me, ‘I know this script, I helped write this script.’

      See Also 36.4

      • CHCOff 55.2.1
        21 October 2018 at 11:11 pm

        It does seem a worry that there was no people/group that was seemingly paying enough attention with over sight to the situation to start with, for this murky murky latest episode to have happened to Mr JR Ross unanticipated.

        Where’s the bloody common sense when this started to surface to handled it in a way that doesn’t become a farce?

        I just don’t understand, how the situation as it is described, was allowed to come about, given the potential implications involved, & it’s just left to the wind.

        • JC 55.2.1.1
          21 October 2018 at 11:26 pm

          “I just don’t understand, how the situation as it is described, was allowed to come about, given the potential implications involved, & it’s just left to the wind.”

          Non plussesed myself…

          • McFlock 55.2.1.1.1
            21 October 2018 at 11:54 pm

            Seems to me that the nats were prepared to pretend to act all sensitive and caring until it became clear he wasn’t going away quietly.

            At that point they decided to take seriously his previous professional abuses (that they’d sat on for years) and for good measure place stress on his marriage. Thus endangering the professional reputation and personal life of someone whom they already believed to be in a vulnerable mental space.

            Nats eat their young, their old, and their weak.

  56. Incognito 56
    21 October 2018 at 9:57 pm

    I found this informative; it is a Webpage from the Citizens Advice Bureau on the Mental Health Act: http://www.cab.org.nz/vat/hw/leg/Pages/MentalHealthAct.aspx

  57. Morris 57
    21 October 2018 at 10:03 pm

    Does anybody remember the John Key ponytail pulling episode? Of course we do. But one thing that seems to have disappeared is why did the waitress suddenly go quiet. She could have had him convicted and therefore he would have had to step down as prime minister. Does anyone else think she was threatened into silence or just paid off with one of these famous National-style confidentiality agreements?

    Is that same nastiness now happening to JLR?

  58. Anne 58
    21 October 2018 at 10:41 pm

    I think its time mickysavage changed the title of this post. 😯

    • veutoviper 58.1
      21 October 2018 at 11:05 pm

      And the picture ….

    • JC 58.2
      21 October 2018 at 11:05 pm

      Thanks to the Moderators too. Sure it’s been a tough week! ALL round!

      Thank someone, it’s Labour Day tomorrow. No work, (Well only for essential services), No News. We can All go to the beach, or the mountains… do wherever! Yeh a Holiday weekend!

      Opps! Sorry wrong century.

      Stink!

    • Dennis Frank 58.3
      21 October 2018 at 11:08 pm

      Yeah, could try Kiwi Politics is Awesome! Dark Knight Castled! No Conspiracy to See Here! Meanwhile, over in Oz:

      “On Saturday, Morrison had surrendered the seat, vacated following Turnbull’s retirement from politics, after the early count showed a swing of more than 20 percent away from the Liberals. But by Sunday evening, his candidate trailed an independent rival by 1,600 votes with several thousand votes still to be counted, the Australian Electoral Commission (AEC) said.”

      “At around 7:00pm AEDT, the ABC’s election count showed that Dr Phelps had a lead of more than 1,600 votes after preferences. But Green cautioned that the official final result may not be known for days.”

  59. Delia 59
    21 October 2018 at 11:08 pm

    Front bench has manipulated us for long enough National, how about bring forward the middle row to manipulate us all over again, at least it would be a change from looking at the usual sordid faces.

  60. Delia 60
    21 October 2018 at 11:10 pm

    He also may have a case for abuse of his right to medical privacy and believe me I do not support this man at all based on information the last week.

    • JC 60.1
      22 October 2018 at 12:41 am

      Thank You Delia. If i understand you correctly .. Toby Manhire satire piece here fyi ..

      https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/21-10-2018/100-hours-of-turpitude-jami-lee-rosss-grenades-across-an-incredible-week/

      • Dennis Frank 60.1.1
        22 October 2018 at 11:43 am

        Yes, Andrew Geddis linked to it on Pundit: “Have a read of Toby Manhire’s list of Ross’ “33 grenades” over on The Spinoff and ask yourself if Bridges also could reasonably believe that it was Ross’ conduct that led to his becoming an independent MP (and thus has distorted proportionality in Parliament). Or, rather, ask yourself if any court would possibly conclude that Bridges could not reasonably believe this.”

        “In a nutshell, so there is no confusion, the necessary legal preconditions exist for Bridges to begin the process to use the party hopping law against Ross in order to force him from the House.”

        My impression, reading through that compilation of 33 grenades, is that Manhire has done an excellent job. Hard to spot any that didn’t qualify as headline-generating! A comprehensive documentation of JLR’s political effectiveness, tactical ability in an in-fighting situation, capacity for demonstrating true whistle-blower status. All up, we have here a potent mix of attributes that validate him as a top player in the game, regardless of whatever his mental health problem is.

        • JC 60.1.1.1
          22 October 2018 at 7:45 pm

          “I watched and tried to figure out what he would have done. I was only sure of one thing: he wouldn’t have left something like that sit there in the day room with his name tacked on it for twenty or thirty years so the Big Nurse could use it as an example of what can happen if you buck the system. I was sure of that.”

          • Dennis Frank 60.1.1.1.1
            22 October 2018 at 7:52 pm

            Cuckoo’s Nest quote? Me big fan of Kesey, long long time ago… 😎

            • JC 60.1.1.1.1.1
              22 October 2018 at 7:59 pm

              “This world . . . belongs to the strong, my friend! The ritual of our existence is based on the strong getting stronger by devouring the weak. We must face up to this. No more than right that it should be this way. We must learn to accept it as a law of the natural world. The rabbits accept their role in the ritual and recognize the wolf is the strong. In defense, the rabbit becomes sly and frightened and elusive and he digs holes and hides when the wolf is about. And he endures, he goes on. He knows his place. He most certainly doesn’t challenge the wolf to combat. Now, would that be wise? Would it?”
              ― Ken Kesey, One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest

              • Dennis Frank …
                22 October 2018 at 8:10 pm

                Yeah, wise up, if you wanna stop being a victim. Figure out a winning strategy to defeat the powers that be. Transform yourself accordingly, into someone able to use it effectively. Act on that basis, tweak it as you go along. At all times, ensure that you cannot be seen as a credible threat.

                Kesey was never a political player but he did establish a track record as one of the most effective cultural transformation catalysts in history. Likewise Castenada. Shamanic practice in the process of social change in contemporary western society remains largely an untold story.

  61. JohnSelway 61
    22 October 2018 at 9:34 pm

    All you assholes (with a special mention to Muttonbird and Dukeofurl) who are talking smack about some National party involvement, making claims about how police would never attend such a thing (even though everything says the will and frequently do), who claim that his phone is being wiped, Ross has been put away because he knew too much, all those who claim it “is in the public interest” to have the details divulged about his personal medical situation and specifically anyone he says anything about how someone doesn’t go from competent to being sectioned overnight (displaying a total ignorance of mental health) should read the statement from the Mental Health Foundation and feel ashamed. It’s people like you who make it difficult for people suffering mental health problems.

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/108024409/mental-health-foundation-warns-to-not-weaponise-jamilee-ross-distress

    • Muttonbird 61.1
      22 October 2018 at 9:59 pm

      Spamming the forum with National Party sympathies. Interesting tactic.

      • JohnSelway 61.1.1
        22 October 2018 at 10:22 pm

        It’s revolting to see someone view mental health through partisan lens. A) you’re wrong about me and B) you’re proving the point the foundation is making.

        • veutoviper 61.1.1.1
          23 October 2018 at 12:01 am

          Hang in there, John. That piece of vileness is just not worth replying to, Funny thing is that is a view shared by many here – and many on Kiwiblog as well. Probably the only thing the two blogs have in common. LOL.

          I was pleased to see the Foundation come out with that warning – it was very much needed. Kia kaha e hoa.

          .

          • SPC 61.1.1.1.1
            23 October 2018 at 12:21 am

            You are aware that the practice of talking between yourselves about another poster in such ways is not actually consistent with concern about the well-being of others …

          • RedLogix 61.1.1.1.2
            23 October 2018 at 1:16 am

            Muttonbird and I have crossed swords more than a few times, but ‘vileness’ is way over the line, deep into abusive personal attack.

            Sure some folk do dish it out; but doubling down rarely leads anywhere useful.

      • JohnSelway 61.1.2
        22 October 2018 at 10:27 pm

        And I guess this means the mental health foundation is in on it to.

    • SPC 61.2
      23 October 2018 at 12:44 am

      “We have until now remained mostly quiet about Jami-Lee Ross and we will continue not to give comment to media for the time being, but we’d like to say something to you,” it wrote on Twitter.mostly quiet about Jami-Lee Ross and we will continue not to give comment to media for the time being, but we’d like to say something to you,” it wrote on Twitter.

      “We have been troubled (as have many of you) by some unkind and sensationalised comments regarding Mr Ross’s mental health. We know and accept that to have a sitting MP apparently sectioned under the Mental Health Act is unprecedented and there are many other aspects of this story that warrant open discussion, but we are disappointed to see old attitudes about mental illness and distress seeping into those discussions.

      “The Mental Health Foundation has no position on the political aspects of this conversation. But we believe you can have discussions about these valid issues without using discriminatory or stigmatising language and without weaponising Mr Ross’s distress against him.”

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12146830

      The concern they expressed was not about discussion of the political aspects of the situation which they say warrant open discussion – and it is these things which have concerned you.

      All they called for was for on-line discussions to
      1. not to weaponise his mental health against him
      2. not include unkind comments about his mental health
      3. not be a return to old attitides about mental illness and distress

      And there have been few if any of these here.

      • Dennis Frank 61.2.1
        23 October 2018 at 3:43 am

        Yes, that seems a fair summation. It’s a natural human tendency to read stuff into text that isn’t actually intended, and folks consequently polarise on that basis. Without the supplementary input from eye contact and body language to empower emotional intelligence, it’s hard sometimes to avoid hostility. We ought to make the effort though, to keep the quality of discourse optimal…

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