Extraordinary day at the DNC

69 comments on “Extraordinary day at the DNC ”

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1. te reo putake 1

   27 July 2016 at 4:52 pm

   It’s coming together nicely. Bill Clinton spoke as only he can, and with the fair-weather democrats not in the hall, the lasting impression will be of laughter, joy and rapturous applause. A great day for Hillary Clinton personally and for the campaign generally.
   • Aaron 1.1

     27 July 2016 at 10:18 pm

     Seriously?
     • Colonial Viper 1.1.1

       27 July 2016 at 10:21 pm

       Yep, all on track in the Thorndon Bubble/DC Beltway parallel universe that these establishment lefties inhabit.
2. dukeofurl 2

   27 July 2016 at 4:57 pm

   1/2 empty ?

   Even if 1000 Berners walked out, that only makes 21%. They never could count
   • adam 2.1

     27 July 2016 at 6:02 pm

     So it official then, you guys are going to run with the continued put downs then?
     • Nic the NZer 2.1.1

       27 July 2016 at 7:05 pm

       Oh no, that would be like just planning a run a negative campaign because there is so little positive to say about the candidate. Te Reo has been listing all of Hilary’s political assets, so far that is (as best I can glean)
       1) She’s a woman.
       2) Her husband is Bill Clinton.
       If that’s not sufficient for you to make up your mind then I don’t know what is…
   • Colonial Viper 2.2

     27 July 2016 at 10:03 pm

     Even if 1000 Berners walked out, that only makes 21%. They never could count

     21% of the Democratic Party’s youngest, most energetic, most innovative organisers and most promising future party leaders from each and every state.

     It would be typical of a Thorndon Bubble type like you to shrug and say “they could never count”.
3. The Lone Haranguer 3

   27 July 2016 at 5:17 pm

   Im sure they will fill the hall with suitable attired Hillary lovers and they will look like a 100% singing from the same songsheet.

   I cant really see too many of the walkout crowd and their friends voting Trump, but I can see Dr Stein getting a lot more votes.

   As I understand the US system, if no candidate gets to 50% in the POTUS election, the Congress get to choose who will be POTUS and Im not sure they are restricted to those standing.

   Congress is controlled by the Republicans, so I wouldnt assume that given unbridled power, that they would automatically choose Trump.

   Exciting times for sure. And maybe dangerous one too.
   • Andre 3.1

     27 July 2016 at 5:30 pm

     The twelfth amendment says the house of representatives has to choose from the top three placegetters in the electoral college vote. One vote per state delegation. The senate chooses the VP from the top two, with all senators voting. So they can’t just go out and pick anybody. But they just might choose Johnson over Trump.

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
     • The Lone Haranguer 3.1.1

       27 July 2016 at 8:37 pm

       Thanks for the accurate info. Much appreciated.
4. mac1 4

   27 July 2016 at 5:21 pm

   Bernie Sanders’ speech for me was extraordinary. I took notes as I was so impressed with his vision and by the detail with which he outlined the common cause which he had with Hillary Clinton.

   These are the notes I took. I hope they may inspire similar policies here.

   “Points of action outlined by Bernie Sanders in his address to the DNC.

   The political revolution for economic, social, racial, environmental justice must continue in America.

   The 40 year decline of the middle class must be arrested.. What must change is the fact that 47 million US citizens live in poverty while 85% of new income goes to the top 1%.

   $10.45 cents an hour not enough. Wages are inadequate. A person working for 40 hr a week should not be living in poverty. The minimum wage must be raised to equal a living wage- more than $7.25 as it is now.

   Millions of new jobs to rebuild infrastructure are needed.

   The Citizens United Supreme Court decision allowing the wealthiest to threaten democracy in buying elections must be overturned. Justices will be elected to the Supreme Court to overturn this decision. The movement towards oligarchy must be ended.

   Women’s right to choose, workers’ rights ,LGBT rights, rights for minorities , immigrants and the environment must be enacted.

   Proposal to revolutionise higher education- guarantee children of family below $125,000 pa or less will go to public college or Uni free. 83% of the US population will benefit. Substantially reduce student debt.

   Environment change is needed. 100,000s jobs to be created, transforming the energy system.

   Work towards universal health care, reducing number of poorly insured or those uninsured. 55+ should be able to opt onto medicare. Millions are denied access to primary care, dental care lower cost prescriptions, health centres, mental counselling. This will change. The high cost of prescription drugs- highest prices in world- means 20 million unable to afford prescription drugs whilst companies make huge profits.

   Immigration reform. Broken criminal justice system reformed. For young, good school and good jobs- invest in jobs and education, not more cells to rot in.

   Diversity is one of the US’s greatest strengths- diversity is strength, standing together to create a country we all know that we can become. Realise that democracy is about different opinions, even within the Party.

   Break up Wall St financial institutions. Pass a new 21st Century Glass-Steagall Act.

   TPP trade killing agreements should not to be passed.”

   Not a bad blueprint for any left of centre party.
5. Anne 5

   27 July 2016 at 5:25 pm

   I’m not afraid to stick my neck out on this one.

   First, I concede I don’t know the details of these email leaks, but as far as I can gather -and in a nutshell – a very senior Democrat employee ( a woman I know that much) suggested a ‘dirty tricks’ campaign to discredit Bernie Sanders. We know all about Dirty Tricks campaigns but there’s one big difference. In NZ the perpetrators carried it out. In the US Democratic party, as far as I can see it didn’t happen. There was bias towards Hillary Clinton but did anyone imagine there wouldn’t be? There isn’t a major political party anywhere where the Party elite don’t have a preferred candidate in mind.

   I noted on the opening night that the vast majority of Bernie supporters were under the age of 25. I say to them it’s time they grew up and started thinking with their heads. Has there been any evidence that Hillary Clinton was a part of the suggested campaign and approved of it’s usage? Not as far as I can tell. As the actress said to the…..

   STOP BEING RIDICULOUS.
   • GregJ 5.1

     27 July 2016 at 5:43 pm

     I think you may be underplaying it a little Anne.

     Here’s the Wikipedia summary of what has been revealed so far:

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Democratic_National_Committee_email_leak

     Wikileaks has indicated there is more to come.

     The essential point was the DNC was meant to be neutral with regards to the process and it clearly wasn’t. There appears to be systemic bias towards Clinton and attempts to influence media by smearing Sanders campaign and campaign personnel. No direct evidence of outright manipulation of the voting process in the Primaries & Caucuses but certainly obstruction and hinderance placed in the way of the Sanders campaign. It is certainly not a good look.
   • Lanthanide 5.2

     27 July 2016 at 5:46 pm

     “a very senior Democrat employee ( a woman I know that much) suggested a ‘dirty tricks’ campaign to discredit Bernie Sanders.”

     She didn’t suggest it herself, actually. She wasn’t directly involved in it, but set up the culture where this was discussed.
     • Anne 5.2.1

       27 July 2016 at 6:57 pm

       OK. I stand corrected. My knowledge of the details are sketchy as I said.
   • Colonial Viper 5.3

     27 July 2016 at 11:08 pm

     I noted on the opening night that the vast majority of Bernie supporters were under the age of 25. Has there been any evidence that Hillary Clinton was a part of the suggested campaign and approved of it’s usage? Not as far as I can tell. As the actress said to the…..STOP BEING RIDICULOUS.

     I cannot describe how annoyed I am at your statement Anne. OK, I admit you are a veteran political activist. But any 25 year old can tell when they are being royally screwed, and they don’t need you to provide cover for the a**holes doing the screwing.

     Clinton Rewards Wasserman Schultz’s Shady Behavior With a New Job

     DWS will continue to push the corrupt brand of politics she perfected as DNC chair.

     On July 22, Wikileaks released 20,000 DNC emails, exposing DNC chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz and the DNC staff of sabotaging Bernie Sanders’ campaign. In the wake of the fallout, Wasserman Schultz formally resigned from her position as DNC chair, only to be replaced by another Clinton surrogate, DNC vice chair Donna Brazile.

     Rather than allowing Wasserman Schultz’s career to go down with her resignation, Clinton has awarded Wasserman Schultz a new role as honorary chair to the Clinton campaign’s 50-state program.

     “There’s simply no one better at taking the fight to Republicans than Debbie—which is why I am glad that she has agreed to serve as honorary chair of my campaign’s 50-state program to gain ground and elect democrats in every part of the country, and will continue to serve as a surrogate for my campaign nationally, in Florida, and other key states,” Clinton announced.

     Does that answer your question of whether or not Hillary Clinton approved (and probably collaborated with) Debbie Wasserman Schultz’s corrupt and underhanded behaviour?

     And if Clinton wins, what’s the bet that Wasserman Schultz gets a nice political posting in her new administration.

     http://observer.com/2016/07/clinton-rewards-wasserman-schultzs-shady-behavior-with-new-job/
     • Anne 5.3.1

       28 July 2016 at 7:16 am

       … any 25 year old can tell when they are being royally screwed, and they don’t need you to provide cover for the a**holes doing the screwing.

       To begin with I said the supporters were under the age of 25 – quite different. And good on them. Reminds me of ‘me’ 40 plus years ago. They will grow wiser over time just as I did.

       I don’t provide cover for “arseholes” and I never suggested as much. I’m a Sanders fan not a Clinton fan, but I do care about what will happen to the world if a megalomaniac is elected president of America.
6. Ad 6

   27 July 2016 at 5:55 pm

   Great 2 weeks for US democracy.

   And fantastic mobilization for Hillary.
   Loved Michelle and Bill.
   • One Two 6.1

     27 July 2016 at 6:50 pm

     Supporting lifetime criminals The Clintons, while openly ‘loving’ the performance of an impeached and disgraced former POTUS, who is, at best, a womanizer extraordinaire

     There are some low levels of consciousness on this site
     • One Anonymous Bloke 6.1.1

       27 July 2016 at 6:57 pm

       A little dog known for its yappin’,
       And snappin’ and flappin’ and crappin’,
       Scratching at fleas,
       Spreading dis-ease,
       Pot howling at kettles to blacken.
   • Paul 6.2

     27 July 2016 at 6:53 pm

     Have you read this?
     I recommend it.

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ6oY4dMeYo
7. adam 7

   27 July 2016 at 5:57 pm

   Good to see the left going to the Greens.

   About time too.

   For too long the liberal elites in the democratic party have swooned at the altar of the corporations.

   This is not so much burn, as the a new dawn of left and finally some hope for a better future.

   Don’t play the card trump, the democrats brought this on themselves.

   Plus, the right have had their own democracy spring as well. Just look how well the Libertarians are doing.
8. Slippery 8

   27 July 2016 at 6:08 pm

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOL0REJmgRQ

   Protests getting more Dangerous Outside the DNC. Cops Get Pushed back.
   footage from 3 hours ago from posting
   • Colonial Viper 8.1

     27 July 2016 at 9:35 pm

     They were arresting Bernie supporting 8 foot fence jumpers today. (The fence was 8 feet high not the Bernie supporters…)
9. Ad 9

   27 July 2016 at 6:46 pm

   I saw Nate Silver have a little wobble about a poll saying Trump was in the lead this week.

   Convention bumps are common: even Walter Mondale caught Ronald Reagan in the polls following the 1984 Democratic – before getting smashed like a month-old apple against a brick house.
   • swordfish 9.1

     27 July 2016 at 6:56 pm

     Yeah, but you also need to look at things on a Pollster-by-Pollster basis.

     Here’s CNN’s overview of its post-GOP Convention Poll published a couple of days ago:

     Donald Trump comes out of his convention ahead of Hillary Clinton in the race for the White House, topping her 44% to 39% in a four-way matchup including Gary Johnson (9%) and Jill Stein (3%) and by three points in a two-way head-to-head, 48% to 45%. That latter finding represents a 6-point convention bounce for Trump … There hasn’t been a significant post-convention bounce in CNN’s polling since 2000 …
     • Colonial Viper 9.1.1

       27 July 2016 at 7:54 pm

       It’s at this stage that for the record, I would like everyone to note that the Democratic establishment had the option of going with a democratic socialist candidate who would slaughter Trump in November by double digits.

       And they went with the far weaker ‘glass ceiling’ breaking candidate instead.
     • Grantoc 9.1.2

       27 July 2016 at 8:27 pm

       “You also need to look at things on a Pollster-by Pollster basis”

       Which is what Nate Silver does – to a much greater extent that any other polling organisation in the States; using mathematical modelling techniques that are considerably more sophisticated than the other pollsters.
     • Ad 9.1.3

       27 July 2016 at 8:39 pm

       Hold your breath until they’ve both had conventions.
       Your match ups are otherwise meaningless.
       • Colonial Viper 9.1.3.1

         27 July 2016 at 9:34 pm

         I’m betting that Clinton’s numbers are going to go down lol
       • Chris 9.1.3.2

         27 July 2016 at 10:00 pm

         It’s diabolical that the presidency is likely to be decided on the timing of respective gaffes / exposition of faux or mini-scandal etc. That’s what happens when both candidates are so divisive. That wouldn’t be the case if Sanders were one of them.
     • Lanthanide 9.1.4

       27 July 2016 at 10:08 pm

       “… There hasn’t been a significant post-convention bounce in CNN’s polling since 2000 …”

       Which actually doesn’t mean much. In 2014 I was sure the polling for National would overstate their result by 2-3% as it had done for the previous 3 elections, giving Labour a slim chance to form a coalition.

       But as it turned out, the polling was very accurate for National. The track record of the prior 3 elections didn’t play out again in 2014.

       So just because CNN’s polling methodology in the past didn’t show convention bumps, doesn’t mean the fact that it is showing one now should be particularly important, given how much time has passed since those other elections.
       • swordfish 9.1.4.1

         27 July 2016 at 11:11 pm

         “In 2014 I was sure the polling for National would overstate their result by 2-3% as it had done for the previous 3 elections, giving Labour a slim chance to form a coalition.

         But as it turned out, the polling was very accurate for National. The track record of the prior 3 elections didn’t play out again in 2014.”

         True. Although bare in mind that both National’s pollster, Curia, and Labour’s pollster, UMR, recorded a roughly 2 point swing to the Nats in the final few days. As Farrar has said – the National hierarchy attributes that crucial late boost to Dotcom’s Big Reveal. Without that, you may well have seen the same over-estimation. (one-way swings to that degree are fairly rare in the final week of the campaign … the 1993 “Bugger the Pollsters” Election being one of the few other examples in recent times).

         Bare in mind, too, that the Nats were polling 50% or more in quite a few polls from May right through to August and even three (50% / 53% / 54%) in early September, just 2-3 weeks out from Election Day.
         • swordfish 9.1.4.1.1

           27 July 2016 at 11:30 pm

           Or … you could even bear it in mind.
           • Colonial Viper 9.1.4.1.1.1

             27 July 2016 at 11:43 pm

             Two point swing to the NATs due to Dotcom…odd how the Labour caucus blamed Cunliffe for that.
10. mauī 10

    27 July 2016 at 7:34 pm

    If you want to see more of Jill Stein, here’s a great interview, done straight after she did another rousing speech a couple of days ago. That’s probably why it’s so good. Starts at 6:15
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTG67z0yUag
    • weka 10.1

      27 July 2016 at 8:35 pm

      very good. Do you know what was her earlier speech that the interviewer referred to?
      • mauī 10.1.1

        27 July 2016 at 9:50 pm

        Oh, that’s the speech at the beginning of the clip – the first 6 mins.
        • weka 10.1.1.1

          27 July 2016 at 10:07 pm

          oh right, of course, doh!
11. Colonial Viper 11

    27 July 2016 at 7:35 pm

    Sabine said that 150 sour faced Bernie die hards walked out and they didn’t count for shit.

    I imagine that the repercussions of today’s DNC Convention are going to reverberate, and reverberate loud.

    As for Trump’s polling.

    The electorate absolutely hates disunity. A week a go that was the Republican’s problem. No one remembers that any more.
    • Paul 11.1

      27 July 2016 at 7:41 pm

      150?
      Nonsense.

      Angry over allegations of widespread voter fraud and orders to stay quiet during Tuesday night’s proceedings, an estimated 1,800 hard-core Sanders voters staged a spontaneous walkout Tuesday night at the Democratic National Convention in Philadelphia. Many said they felt disrespected and silenced.

      http://www.cleveland.com/politics/index.ssf/2016/07/dnc_2016_bernie_sanders_suppor.html
    • swordfish 11.2

      27 July 2016 at 8:03 pm

      4 brutal poll numbers that greet Hillary Clinton at the Democratic National Convention

      Washington Post story before the latest turmoil …

      It’s common for presidential candidates to get a bump from their conventions, and two new polls Monday suggest Donald Trump did indeed get that.

      But the new polls don’t just show Trump’s stock rising (however temporarily that may be); they also have some very bad news for Hillary Clinton and her already-declining personal image. Indeed, politically, she’s doing as bad as she ever has — if not worse …

      Below, four key points:

      1) 68 percent say Clinton isn’t honest and trustworthy

      That’s according to the CNN poll, and it’s her worst number on-record. It’s also up from 65 percent earlier this month and 59 percent in May. The 30 percent who see Clinton as honest and trustworthy is now well shy of the number who say the same of Trump: 43 percent … The CBS poll, for what it’s worth, has a similar number saying Clinton is dishonest: 67 percent.

      2) Her image has never been worse

      CBS showed just 31 percent have favorable views of Clinton and 56 percent have unfavorable ones. Even in Trump’s worst days on the campaign trail, he has rarely dipped below a 31 percent favorable rating … In the CNN poll, the 39 percent who say they have a favorable view of Clinton is lower than at any point in CNN’s regular polling since April 1992 … Clinton’s favorable rating in the CNN poll is currently 16 points net-negative. That’s unprecedented in the dozens of CNN polls on her since 1992 … Gallup’s new numbers on Monday — 38 percent favorable and 57 percent unfavorable — are also unprecedented over the course of Clinton’s political career.

      3) Just 38 percent would be “proud” to have her as president

      That’s down from 55 percent in March 2015. Sixty percent say they would not be proud.

      4) Nearly half of Democratic primary voters still want Bernie Sanders

      https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/07/25/4-brutal-poll-numbers-that-greet-hillary-clinton-at-the-democratic-national-convention/
      • GregJ 11.2.1

        27 July 2016 at 8:37 pm

        I read something somewhere (it may even have been a link from something posted here – perhaps 538?) that said Trump & Clinton are the 2 most unpopular Presidential candidates in decades.

        It really does seem a case of holding your nose when you vote!

        Of course the US should ditch it’s antiquated system and elect a President on a popular vote with runoff elections to get a candidate over 50% – perhaps like, oh I dunno, Russia! 👿
        • Colonial Viper 11.2.1.1

          27 July 2016 at 9:57 pm

          I am predicting that by the end of August, Trump will smell like roses (relatively) in terms of disapproval ratings.
        • DoublePlusGood 11.2.1.2

          28 July 2016 at 1:55 pm

          Perhaps a Preferential Vote election. Would also help their democracy greatly if they did STV or MMP for Senate and Congress.
      • red-blooded 11.2.2

        27 July 2016 at 10:32 pm

        “Untrustworthy and dishonest”? That’s not what Politifact says. In fact, they currently have Clinton rating at 71% true(ish). http://www.politifact.com/personalities/hillary-clinton/

        Please note that Sanders is 72% (an improvement on his previous rating).
        http://www.politifact.com/personalities/bernie-s/

        And our beloeved Mr Trump? A whopping 29%! http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/
        • Colonial Viper 11.2.2.1

          27 July 2016 at 11:30 pm

          Let’s look at some real polling results from a few days ago shall we, instead of some synthetic metric which ignores what actual people think?

          The convention also helped Trump make strides in his personal image. A majority (52%) now say Trump is running for president for the good of the country rather than personal gain, just 44% say the same about Clinton. He’s increased the share who call him honest and trustworthy (from 38% to 43%), and who would be proud to have him as president (from 32% to 39%). And nearly half now say he’s in touch with the problems ordinary Americans face in their daily lives (46% say so, 37% did before the convention)…

          Perhaps most troubling for the Clinton supporters gathering in Philadelphia this week: 68% now say Clinton is not honest and trustworthy, her worst rating on that measure in CNN/ORC polling.

          http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/25/politics/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-poll/index.html
          • Macro 11.2.2.1.1

            28 July 2016 at 12:31 am

            But then only 70% of the citizens of the USA think CC is real. Admittedly an improvement following the massive droughts they have been suffering this past year, but still 30% deny, and that is enough for the 80 odd republican senators to hold up any real intergovernmental policy on climate change.
            • Colonial Viper 11.2.2.1.1.1

              28 July 2016 at 12:33 am

              It’s vaguely a democracy (of sorts) right? 70% sounds like the basis for a huge majority.
              • Macro …

                28 July 2016 at 12:43 am

                Yeah – very vaguely a democracy
                Noam doesn’t think it is:

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeTbDdl7XiE
12. Tiger Mountain 12

    27 July 2016 at 7:42 pm

    Bernie is trying to extract the max policy concessions from the DNC on various issues; but really if he could not be VP nominee he should then have run Green or independent, and all you political geniuses that follow US politics intimately can squeal at me but Bernie was the more likely to be able to defeat Trump
    • GregJ 12.1

      27 July 2016 at 8:43 pm

      Strategically he was probably better off being inside the tent and trying to drag the Democrats as far left as he could (and let’s not forget he got very close to winning the nomination).

      The only way he could have run as a Green or Independent and had a shot would be if the US reformed its Presidential voting system away from the antiquated one it has now.

      Perhaps his legacy may be a slate of new Democrats who move the party to the left.
13. Paul 13

    27 July 2016 at 7:52 pm

    Chris Hedges.
    Saying it as it is.
    Listen from 2:30 to 7:10, from 11:35 to 14:45, from 25:00 to 28:05 and from 29:15.

    We do not live in a functioning democracy and we have to stop pretending that we do.

    When you eviscerate privacy, you can’t use the word liberty. That is the relation between a master and a slave.

    You can’t build movements in a political system where money has replaced the vote.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr4cXH3Fil8
    • Anne 13.1

      27 July 2016 at 8:09 pm

      Nope. Imo, Robert Reich is right on the button. Sane and sensible reasoning.
      • Paul 13.1.1

        27 July 2016 at 8:50 pm

        Hedges explains his thinking.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrST2C0QYzo
    • swordfish 13.2

      27 July 2016 at 8:43 pm

      Chris Hedges:

      And the Democrats, you know, their bedside manner is different from the Republicans. You know, Trump is this kind of grotesque figure. He’s like the used car salesman who rolls back the speedometer. But Hillary Clinton is like, you know, the managers of Goldman Sachs. They both engage in criminal activities that have—and Clinton’s record, like Trump, exposes this—that have preyed upon the most vulnerable within this country and are now destroying the middle class. And to somehow speak as if we are in a functioning democracy, or speak as if there are any restraints on capitalism, or speak as if the Democratic Party has not pushed forward this agenda—I mean, Obama has done this. You know, he has been as obsequious to Wall Street as the Bush administration. There’s no difference.
14. Colonial Viper 14

    27 July 2016 at 9:46 pm

    An interesting counterfactual – what if Trump was knocked out earlier on by the Elephant Establishment (as everyone expected) and Jeb Bush was now the Republican candidate, giving the distressed working class vote truly nowhere to go for.
15. Stuart Munro 15

    27 July 2016 at 10:39 pm

    Leaving aside the emails and other dirt, the Clinton brand is pretty tired. The public know to expect more of the same from Hillary – but the same hasn’t worked for them at all. Hope the system gets reformed – I’m expecting a Trump win.
    • Colonial Viper 15.1

      27 July 2016 at 10:47 pm

      Concur. The writing has been on the wall for a Trump win for awhile, particularly with a Clinton nomination.
      • Stuart Munro 15.1.1

        27 July 2016 at 11:04 pm

        Yeah – I think too that Jeb Bush’s chances were killed by his brother as much as anything. There hasn’t been a credible GOP candidate since McCain. There’ll be a lot of protest non-votes from both sides. Russia and China will make hay while the US is paralysed with a surfeit of stupid.
        • Phil 15.1.1.1

          28 July 2016 at 10:08 am

          There hasn’t been a credible GOP candidate since McCain

          Romney got closer to beating Obama in ’12 than McCain did in ’08.
          • Stuart Munro 15.1.1.1.1

            28 July 2016 at 8:03 pm

            Not everything worth measuring comes down to numbers. Numerically Key could be mistaken for something other than a lying white collar criminal.
            • Phil 15.1.1.1.1.1

              29 July 2016 at 10:13 am

              I tend to believe numerical results are, as a way of assessing political credibility, a far superior method when compared to relying on a political partisan of the left (right) having a balanced view of a candidate of the right (left).
16. red-blooded 16

    27 July 2016 at 10:43 pm

    Like they “truly” have reason to hope with Trump! You truly do continue to amaze, CV. Even if you don’t like Clinton, “My friend’s enemy is my friend” doesn’t hold, here.
    Sanders knows damn well that Trump and all that he represents is the real worry. He’s endorsed Clinton and spoken with real passion about the need to reject Trump. They were in competition for the leadership of the Democrats (a party he’s only belonged to for a couple of years) and it’s common in the US for competitors in the primaries to vilify each other, but now’s the time to pull together. He knows this, but it seems his supporters don’t. I really hope they (and we) don’t have to live with the outcome of their (and your) immaturity.
    • Colonial Viper 16.1

      27 July 2016 at 10:50 pm

      I hope you and your ilk keep demonising ordinary people as being tantrum throwing kids.

      It really helps your likability numbers.

      PS if the Democratic Party hierarchy had been serious about nominating a candidate who by all the polls would smash Trump in November, they would have picked Sanders.

      So please don’t have the gall to blame the rest of us for their shitty short sighted judgement.
      • Liberal Realist 16.1.1

        28 July 2016 at 6:51 pm

        They will keep at it CV. Beltway types just don’t seem to get it.

        I’ve shared this before (in reply to yourself if I can recall), it still stands. Quote from John Pilger (my emphasis):

        ” Trump is a media hate figure. That alone should arouse
        our scepticism. Trump’s views on migration are grotesque, but
        no more grotesque than David Cameron. It is not Trump who
        is the Great Deporter from the United States, but the Nobel
        Peace Prize winner Barack Obama … The danger to the rest of
        us is not Trump, but Hillary Clinton. She is no maverick. She
        embodies the resilience and violence of a system… As
        presidential election day draws near, Clinton will be hailed as
        the first female president, regardless of her crimes and lies
        – just as Barack Obama was lauded as the first black president
        and liberals swallowed his nonsense about “hope”.”

        http://johnpilger.com/articles/trump-and-clinton-censoring-the-unpalatable

        While Trump represents a worldview that I generally don’t agree with he’s unlikely to start WW3. Clinton on the other hand…

        Also worth referencing:

        “The equivalent in the US are the politically correct warmongers on the New York Times, the Washington Post and network TV who dominate political debate. I watched a furious debate on CNN about Trump’s infidelities. It was clear, they said, a man like that could not be trusted in the White House. No issues were raised. Nothing on the 80 per cent of Americans whose income has collapsed to 1970s levels. Nothing on the drift to war. The received wisdom seems to be “hold your nose” and vote for Clinton: anyone but Trump. That way, you stop the monster and preserve a system gagging for another war.”

        http://johnpilger.com/articles/silencing-america-as-it-prepares-for-war

        IMO Clinton represents the system that is ‘Gagging for another war’. In order to prevent another major or world war Trump must be elected.
        • Stuart Munro 16.1.1.1

          28 July 2016 at 8:10 pm

          While I concur that Hillary has little to offer, the Donald may make concessions to Putin in Europe that allow whole countries to be re-enSlaved by Putinic militarism. The wheels have pretty clearly fallen off Dahlian polyarchy, America looks set for a despotic period.
          • Liberal Realist 16.1.1.1.1

            28 July 2016 at 9:25 pm

            I do not agree that Putin has any intention of enslaving anyone. IMO Putin is doing what an intelligent elite in his position does and he does it well. Putin is a remarkable politician in that he has maintained popularity whilst holding the hawks + neocons in his own government at bay. Who know’s Russia could end up with a reactive hawk at the helm. Putin isn’t an angel by any mark but he’s no comparison to Clinton.

            I believe Putin is a major reason why there hasn’t yet been a major escalation in the US / Russian conflict even though the US and its vassals / proxies have been agitating and inciting Russian responses via encroachment of its interests, overt or otherwise, for years. For example Putin brokered the deal with Syria when Assad was falsely accused of using chemical weapons, for Assad to dispose of his stockpile, averting direct US / NATO intervention (bombing). Ukraine was not invaded after an illegal and overt hostile takeover with swift insertion of delegated quisling and their neo-nazi thugs. Russia has no interest in any conflict with Europe, while recently NATO runs the largest maneuvers since the end of the cold war, near Russia’s border. Who’s the aggressor?

            Eventually Putin will run out of political capital and or buckle to internal pressure to respond more forcefully to the US and its NATO quislings. My bet is that should this come to pass, it will be under Clinton. Giving how the US behaves, that means WW3 just got hot.

            As for America being set for a despotic period, they’ve already developed a fairly advanced form of Oligarchic Plutocracy masquerading as a Republic, so we’re already there.
            • Colonial Viper 16.1.1.1.1.1

              28 July 2016 at 9:29 pm

              Russia has no interest in any conflict with Europe, while recently NATO runs the largest maneuvers since the end of the cold war, near Russia’s border. Who’s the aggressor?

              While western media parrots blame Russia for warmongering if Moscow conducts military exercises within its own borders.

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