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Glenn Greenwald on…

Written By: - Date published: 11:53 am, July 19th, 2018 - 113 comments
Categories: class war, International, journalism, Media, Propaganda, Russia, us politics - Tags:

Glenn Greenwald and Joe Cirinione were both on Democracy Now! a few days ago. Their debate was streets ahead of the usual fayre, and was fairly wide ranging. I fully recommend watching the entire debate or reading the entire transcript. Joe Cirinione more or less echoed the opinions or headlines we’re seeing in msm.

What follows are some salient and under-reported points made by Glenn Greenwald in response to Cirinione and by extension, the dominant narratives of  “our” media. There was much more in the way of thoughtful commentary and opinion than what I’m able to sensibly provide here. The transcript is in two parts. Part one is here. Part two is here. (Both links also provide access to  video of the interview).

On Trump meeting with Putin in Helsinki

I think it’s excellent. And I would just cite two historical examples. In 2007, during the Democratic presidential debate, Barack Obama was asked whether he would meet with the leaders of North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, Syria and Iran without preconditions. He said he would. Hillary Clinton said she wouldn’t, because it would be used as a propaganda tool for repressive dictators. And liberals celebrated Obama.

On Russian meddling in US Election

So, I mean, I think this kind of rhetoric is so unbelievably unhinged, the idea that the phishing links sent to John Podesta and the Democratic National Committee are the greatest threat to American democracy in decades. People are now talking about it as though it’s on par with 9/11 or Pearl Harbor, that the lights are blinking red, in terms of the threat level. This is lunacy, this kind of talk. I spent years reading through the most top-secret documents of the NSA, and I can tell you that not only do they send phishing links to Russian agencies of every type continuously on a daily basis, but do far more aggressive interference in the cybersecurity of every single country than Russia is accused of having done during the 2016 election.

 In 2012, he (Obama) mocked the idea, spread by Mitt Romney, that Russia was our greatest existential foe. Yes, that was before Crimea, but it was after Georgia. It was after they were accused of murdering dissidents and imprisoning journalists. He mocked that idea and said we have all kinds of reasons to try and get along with Russia. Even after 2016, after Crimea, after he was told that the Russians interfered in the U.S. election, he didn’t talk about it as 9/11 or treat it like 9/11. He expelled a few Russian diplomats and urged everybody to keep it in perspective, and said that Russia is the seventh- or eighth-largest economy in the world, behind even Italy, and not a grave threat to the United States.

On Putin ‘having something’ on Trump.

No, I mean, I’ll believe that when I see evidence for it. So let me just make two points. Number one is, if you look at President Obama versus President Trump, there’s no question that President Obama was more cooperative with and collaborative with Russia and the Russian agenda than President Trump. President Trump has sent lethal arms to Ukraine—a crucial issue for Putin—which President Obama refused to do. President Trump has bombed the Assad forces in Syria, a client state of Putin, something that Obama refused to do because he didn’t want to provoke Putin. Trump has expelled more Russian diplomats and sanctioned more Russian oligarchs than [Obama] has. Trump undid the Iran deal, which Russia favored, while Obama worked with Russia in order to do the Iran deal. So this idea that Trump is some kind of a puppet of Putin, that he controls him with blackmail, is the kind of stuff that you believe if you read too many Tom Clancy novels, but isn’t borne out by the facts.

On press freedom.

You know, a lot of times when people talk about Trump’s attacks on press freedom, they talk about his rhetoric, his mean tweets about Wolf Blitzer and Chuck Todd, and his criticisms of the media. I don’t think that those are meaningful attacks on press freedom. I think what are meaningful attacks on press freedom are investigations into the work that journalists do with sources, in the attempt to imprison sources for giving journalists information that belong in the public domain. We at The Intercept have had two of our alleged sources the subject of investigations by the Justice Department, including one of whom who is now in prison. And my colleague Jim Risen, who the Obama administration threatened with prison for many years, wrote an op-ed in The New York Times after Trump was elected, saying if Trump ends up being able to attack press freedom, it will be because—due to the infrastructure that Obama created, this obsession with investigating and prosecuting and imprisoning sources, like my source, Edward Snowden, under the espionage statutes. And, of course, the Obama Justice Department prosecuted more sources under the espionage statute—in fact, three times as many—than all previous administrations combined. That, to me, is a real threat to press freedom, not some insults on Twitter, that Donald Trump is now taking advantage of.

Mueller indictments

As far as the indictments from Mueller are concerned, it’s certainly the most specific accounting yet that we’ve gotten of what the U.S. government claims the Russian government did in 2016. But it’s extremely important to remember what every first-year law student will tell you, which is that an indictment is nothing more than the assertions of a prosecutor unaccompanied by evidence. The evidence won’t be presented until a trial or until Robert Mueller actually issues a report to Congress. And so, I would certainly hope that we are not at the point, which I think we seem to be at, where we are now back to believing that when the CIA makes statements and assertions and accusations, or when prosecutors make statements and assertions and accusations, unaccompanied by evidence that we can actually evaluate, that we’re simply going to believe those accusations on faith, especially when the accusations come from George W. Bush’s former FBI Director Robert Mueller, who repeatedly lied to Congress about Iraq and a whole variety of other issues.

On the Democratic Party and the conversations around their electoral defeat.

It wasn’t just Hillary Clinton in 2016 who lost this election. The entire Democratic Party has collapsed as a national political force over the last decade. They’ve lost control of the Senate and of the House and of multiple statehouses and governorships. They’re decimated as a national political force. And the reason is exactly what Joe said. They become the party of international globalization. They’re associated with Silicon Valley and Wall Street billionaires and corporate interests, and have almost no connection to the working class. And that is a much harder conversation to have about why the Democrats have lost elections than just blaming a foreign villain and saying it’s because Vladimir Putin ran some fake Facebook ads and did some phishing emails. And I think that until we put this in perspective, about what Russia did in 2016 and the reality that the U.S. does that sort of thing all the time to Russia and so many other countries, we’re going to just not have the conversation that we need to be having about what these international institutions, that are so sacred—NATO and free trade and international trade organizations—have done to people all over the world, and the reason they’re turning to demagogues and right-wing extremists because of what these institutions have done to them. That’s the conversation we need to be having, but we’re not having, because we’re evading it by blaming everything on Vladimir Putin.

On Trump verbally attacking the EU and NATO. 

Just like this week, when he said that the European Union was a foe, what he said was something that for a long time on the left was really kind of just uncontroversial orthodoxy, which is that of course the European Union is an economic competitor of the U.S., and a lot of what their trade practices are do harm the American worker. We put up barriers against Chinese products entering the U.S., and yet the EU buys them and then sells them into the U.S., indirectly helping China circumvent those barriers in a way that directly harms U.S. workers. This is something that people like Robert Reich and Sherrod Brown and Bernie Sanders have been talking about for a long time. So it does make it very difficult when the only person who’s raising these kinds of issues and talking about these things—we need to get along better with Russia and China, we need to reform these old, archaic, destructive institutions—is a megalomaniac, somebody who’s completely devoid of any positive human virtue, which is Donald Trump. So it puts you in the position of kind of trying to agree with him, while knowing that he’s really not going to be able to do anything about those in a positive way.

I don’t think I can add a damn thing, bar my wish that the general tone and calibre of debate we engage in, and that we’re subjected to, was more akin to this than what we generally have.

113 comments on “Glenn Greenwald on… ”

  1. lprent 1

    And I disagree…

    Somehow this ignored the whole of the military takeover of Crimea, not to mention the war that Russian “volunteers” (with a lot of military experience and zero interference from Moscow) have waged into the Ukraine.

    Sure there was a badly monitored and quite managed ‘referendum” after the fact in the Crimea and after Russian troops were in control. I don’t bloody believe the process was fair or the results even moderately valid. I think it was simply a play for plausible deniability, and it ignored international law. All it did was to convince me that the Russias hadn’t learnt much about politics in the last 70 years.

    I’m not even going to mention the disingenuous lying from Russia about how exactly their military equipment managed to shoot down a civilian airliner.

    There have been many simple acts of aggression by the Russian Federation in recent years.

    As a response all the states on Russia’s western border have been asking for NATO help, and slowly receiving it. It is a logical response for anyone who looks at what Russia has been doing for the last decade.

    Greenwald is minimizing the sheer scope of the Russian intrusions into American election systems and into the political debate. He in fact picks on just one, the DNC phishing. That ignores the intrusions into the electoral systems of several states and many other political computer systems and then the weaponizing of the information by Russia to attempt to influence the course of the election there.

    Now I know damn well you object to external political influence happening here or anywhere else through other means. For instance if it involves the frigging CIA. – you you seem to think that it is ok in this case ? FFS that is hypocritical

    Basically you and Greenwald are simple unthinking fools less concerned about where things are heading than you are in protecting your pre-existing prejudices. A conclusion I came to in Greenwald’s case after looking at him speak at the Town Hall. He was unconvincing.

    Your general opinion seems to be that because one side has ever done anything wrong however innocuous – it justifies military aggression with implausible deniability and intrusions into political processes in other countries.

    I don’t. I think that either when there is a case to be made about a state being an arsehole a with a reasonable probability, then states and individuals should take action based on it. That doesn’t matter who it is.

    I don’t think that you do think that way. I think you hypocritically just work off some fossilized programming from bygone eras. Rather than look at the available information and use judgement on it, you just apply a pre-existing bigotry.

    • Adrian Thornton 1.1

      “Now I know damn well you object to external political influence happening here or anywhere else through other means…etc etc FFS that is hypocritical”
      I think what you will find ( if you actually watched the whole debate) is that Greenwald said that the USA and Russia have a long history of interfering in each others internal processes, so this is nothing unusual.

      What is unusual is the hysteria being drummed up by “George W. Bush’s former FBI Director Robert Mueller, who repeatedly lied to Congress about Iraq” and is then spewed out by all MSM with not a trace of fair and balanced reporting, and is swallowed hook line and sinker by “simple unthinking fools” like you.

      • McFlock 1.1.1

        Hysteria and guilty pleas.

      • lprent 1.1.2

        … that Greenwald said that the USA and Russia have a long history of interfering in each others internal processes,

        I’m far more concerned by what is put on my server. Which in this case, according to you, appears to be carefully selected crap. But even so…. Lets just look at that statement.

        Look at it from my perspective.

        Offhand I think that the last time the US seized and held the territory of another state… Ummm probably after WW2 if you want to look at some of the UN protectorates.

        Last time Russia did it? Less than 5 years ago. Crimea.

        The last time that the US covertly and directly interfered in the political processes in Russia – pretty much unknown. I don’t count overt, transparent or espionage – just attempts to shift political processes covertly. The last one that I am reasonably confident about was way more than 50 years ago. Just a stupid and pointless CIA style operation documented and released by the US. I am sure that there were others..

        But generally historically these types of covert operations aimed at the political systems have been causes for war. The last time it was detected in the US it was the direct cause of the US entering the first world war.

        The last time the US overtly interfered in the Russian political system would probably be the sanctions against Russia after the invasion of Crimea. Which was done well within the bounds of international law.

        Trying to equate that with actively trying to covertly shift election results would have to be a completely false equivalence.

        So I suspect that what you are looking at from Greenwald will all be false equivalences – made especially for the credulous and foolish. Something that I know he routinely does.

        But I’ll have a look at it after work when I have time after work.

        • Tricledrown

          Lprent well said. Manafort was advising the Russian backed takeover in the Ukraine getting paid $10’s of millions laundering that Money skirting the Sanctions even buying an apartment in Trump Tower along with all the other money laundering criminals Trump helped launder through fake holding companies.

        • Adrian Thornton

          Look all Greenwald is saying is that it is better that the two counties with 90-95% of the worlds nuclear armaments ( you remember those weapons that could vaporize us all) talk than not talk, that sounds like the mature (although I hesitate to use that word and Trump in the same sentence) and sensible way forward..I think it is sometimes described as diplomacy.

          Who really benefits from continuing this ridiculous cold war hysteria? maybe that is the question you should ask yourself.

          And btw if Russia/China was anywhere the US boarder you can be very sure that the US would seize and hold whatever foreign country they saw fit.

          And to be clear I am not defending Russia’s acts in the Crimea.

          • lprent

            Who really benefits from continuing this ridiculous cold war hysteria?

            It isn’t “cold war hysteria”. I act exactly the same way about all military and covert political incursions into other countries affairs. With some I have less of an issue. For instance if a country is being used as a launching pad for incursions into other nations or into trade routes used by other nations.

            Some I react to somewhat more strongly than others because they involve nuclear weapons.

            I think it is sometimes described as diplomacy.

            Incompetent diplomacy would be about the third most common reason for wars to happen. Especially the more stupid ones.

            It has become pretty clear now. Trump needs to avoid any kind of international diplomacy because it has become pretty clear that he is utterly incompetent at it. I’d suggest that the Senate needs to take it from his office.

            And btw if Russia/China was anywhere the US boarder you can be very sure that the US would seize and hold whatever foreign country they saw fit.

            FFS: Look at real history rather than fantasy history…

            The last time that the US went across the border to their neighbor Canada was 1812, and they kind of got munted.

            The last time that they went across the border to Mexico in force… Well that depends on your frame of reference. Either 1846 or border incursions of 1910-1919 during the Mexican revolution.

            The first was blatant imperialism of a type that has thankfully subsided.

            The latter was pretty much a containment operation as a result of the Mexican civil war spilling over the border and the various attacks and plots against US towns (for rebel supplies) and civilians inside Mexico. There was a pretty strong push into Mexico by US forces after Pancho Villa attacked Columbus in Arizona.

            The US isn’t exactly a paragon of good world citizenship. But using such easily refuted false equivalences just makes your arguments look a bit crazed.

            The track record of Russia is quite a lot more tarnished.

    • marty mars 1.2

      + 1 lprent

    • Bill 1.3

      You disagree that nothing much could be added to the things that were discussed or covered, because of stuff that wasn’t covered or discussed? What you want Lynn? A complete detailed breakdown of every political machination from the US or Russia from the past 20 years or so?

      Or are you pissed that they didn’t go indepth on Crimea, condemn the shooting down of an airliner and generally talk to your prejudice?

      It was a debate that more or less covered the topics highlighted in bold. Actually, it covered more than that, but I tried to bold whatever Greenwald was addressing in the text that I selected.

      As Greenwald pointed out in relation to Crimea – “Even after 2016, after Crimea, after he (Obama) was told that the Russians interfered in the U.S. election, he didn’t talk about it as 9/11 or treat it like 9/11. He expelled a few Russian diplomats and urged everybody to keep it in perspective…”

      So Greenwald and Obama were both, by your argument, “minimizing the sheer scope of the Russian intrusions into American election systems and into the political debate”.?

      I’m not going to bother with the mob of wee straw thingee jigs you’ve thrown up in an apparent effort to discredit either me or my political perspectives (under a post I provided very minimal input for), beyond noting that if that’s really where you think I come from, then you really haven’t the slightest clue about where I’m coming from.

      Suffice to say, I don’t view the world in absolutist terms, or by way of “black hat/white hat” nonsense

      Seems from the gist of your comment that you do though. So…maybe it’s you who needs to check your own prejudice and simplistic thinking instead of arm waving about other peoples’? (edit – and relegating posts because you “don’t like” the political perspectives they contain?) 😉

      • Ad 1.3.1

        And for programmer types, this is what we have learned about Russian and US spycraft from the set of indictments handed down on Friday:


        • One Two

          Ad, ‘programmer types’ are not data security experts…they’re not penetration experts…and they’re not forensic experts…

          I’ve seen no evidence that anyone who comments on this site has the slightest capability to understand the tools or techniques used by serious hackers’…

          The comments here and in the indictment documents are amatuer hour…

          • lprent

            I’ve seen no evidence that anyone who comments on this site has the slightest capability to understand the tools or techniques used by serious hackers’…

            I do. These days mostly from the making sure there are no intrusions on anything that I work on. And that is everything from military applications to this site.

            I’ve been programming since 1978 and as a profession since 1991. Offhand I can’t think of many systems that I have done since 1995 that haven’t been public net-facing either over ethernet or through RF.

            Most of my requirements are for secure systems. These days I mostly program in c++, python, java, c# for work (plus a few oddities like delphi, managed c++, and lua). At home it is mainly aws, php, html and javascript.

            I don’t do it professionally, but I have been running windows, linux for decades and still do today. That means knowing everything from how to distribute GPOs to how to make sure the Standard’s server is really hard to break into (without finding the honey traps first).

            Mostly I do linux embedded and server these days with just enough windows and OSX to keep my hand on their shifting APIs. These days I even code moderate amount for android (while still avoiding iOS).

            Most of the data security techniques currently in use grew up whilst I have been around in the field. It is kind of interesting looking at just how much the underlying techniques actually remain pretty much the same over decades. There are just more instance of variants of the same old techniques. But that really is the nature of computing…

            And I suspect that you’re under-estimating our audience.

            I know of at least two other readers here who are literate at exactly the level you are describing, and several others who would be if they could be bothered. But on a political blog why would you tout skills or for business here. The only reason I know of them is because I have either met them at work or they have contacted me remotely.

            Generally the people you find pushing their hacking skills in online forums are the wannabes

            • One Two

              You were the obvious responder, having pushed your ‘skill set’ quite openly on this blog…

              So far as the ‘audience’ is concerned. I have not underestimated any commentator who has shown through comments that they may have capability in certain apects of ‘IT’…

              What you say is fundamentally correct that the underlying techniques remain broardly unchanged…

              But not at the very highest levels…where mainstream commercial industry doesn’t operate…

              Needless to say, your stated experience affords you understandings on some levels…but that’s about all..

              Only those involved at the apex of ‘security’ where there is no public or private…could describe, with credibility…what goes on in the shadows…and what the apex preditors are testing on eachother…and others…

              No indication of such a level has been read on this blog…

              But go right ahead…

              • Dennis Frank

                Well, I appreciate that he has detailed his expertise. He has my respect for that. Why don’t you reciprocate?

                See, thing is, readers will appraise the ratio of bluster to competence analogous to signal/noise, won’t they? I did a year of computing in ’69 (UofAk), learnt how to program in fortran & algol but don’t rate my grasp of hacker competence as much above zero nowadays of course. But there is a public interest dimension to your discussion, so you could always write to that as well as doing interpersonal replies.

                • One Two

                  Hi Dennis…

                  I wasn’t looking to announce my backgound, nor will I be just because the site admin, once again chose to do a log dump…

                  The take away is this…

                  No matter the information or stories dropped which ‘readers appraise’…most with no idea of fundamentals of words on page…the simple truth is the number of individuals on this planet who ‘know’ if there was a hack not…and who are operating in the shadows at the apex of digital ‘warfare’….is miniscule…

                  The guardian published Ed Snowden ‘leaks’ were unlikely to be the tip of an iceberg…if they were at all part of the iceberg…

                  When it comes to high level espionage and passing comments trying to literally guess what is going on…is like a small child trying to perform surgery with a bucket and spade…

                  • Dennis Frank

                    Fair enough. Speculation is indeed a waste of time, but to speculate is part of human nature. : )

                    • One Two

                      Absolutely, speculation is all any of us have…

                      It’s when speculation becomes the basis for opinions boardering on absolutes…

                      When the only absolute is that ‘we’ don’t know what is going on…

                      IMO people should accept they have little to no control over the macro influences on their own daily lives…and focus energy on the aspects they can control and influence…

                      Achieve that in a positive sense and who knows what might aggregare out the other end of the energy flows…

                      ‘We’ may even turn things around…or at least slow the decline…

              • Tricledrown

                12 you are an idiot creating some mythical superiority you claim to have.
                Your barking up the wrong tree or just mad.
                Computers run on mathematical equations and as Lprent has said above nothing much has changed except a few variations.
                You think you know more please explain.

              • Paul Campbell

                What a bunch of bollocks, like lprent I’ve been programming since the early 70s, these days I design and build embedded communications tech, both hardware and software – I’ve built crypto based stuff for the past 20 years, implemented every video crypto on the planet, at the moment I have hundreds of thousands of boxes in people’s homes. I’ve dealt with some of the most paranoid vendors there are, including ex-mossad people (what a bunch of bozos! sent me other people’s code).

                You seriously think there are no competent security professionals in NZ? You must live in a different NZ than I do.

                Note: crypto here is in the real sense of the word, not a currency

          • Tricledrown

            12 you have shown how naive you are by attacking LP.

            • One Two

              What level of school have you completed, trickledrown…honestly…

              You’re comprehension is terrible…

              Much of the attacking and insulting on this site stems from the site admin…on commentators and authors…did you ignore that deliberately?

              You’ve called me an idiot..and incorrectly stated I’m issuing insults…

              There are levels, td…

              Yours is very low…

              • Tricledrown

                I have Arthur write us so f the little button thanks for asking Binary buffoon

      • lprent 1.3.2

        Even after 2016, after Crimea, after he (Obama) was told that the Russians interfered in the U.S. election, he didn’t talk about it as 9/11 or treat it like 9/11. He expelled a few Russian diplomats and urged everybody to keep it in perspective…

        Ah no. That was simply a blatant misrepresentation (ie a outright lie) of what Obama did.

        He and the Europeans helped to organise punishing legal economic sanctions against Russia. The same sanctions that the Russian diplomats have been complaining about ever since.

        Curious that neither Greenwald or yourself didn’t mention those. That is kind of my point. Selective quoting or misrepresentation of basic facts pisses me off. I tend to react to it as someone lying – because that is what it is.

        Suffice to say, I don’t view the world in absolutist terms, or by way of “black hat/white hat” nonsense

        So far I haven’t seen ANY evidence of that. What I see is you asserting a points of view that only go one way when it comes to Russia – being very selective about how you divert blame from Russia like your victim blaming of Yuria yesterday.

        With that use of nerve agents there, I’m still waiting to see if there is enough to convict. There is certainly enough to point to something in Russia as being the primary suspect. But it is pretty clear from what you have been writing that you are sure that it wasn’t them – without any realist evidence.

        • Bill

          He and the Europeans helped to organise punishing legal economic sanctions against Russia

          That would be the Hague Declaration you’re referring to, yes?

          Para 3 states “we have imposed a variety of sanctions against Russia and those individuals and entities responsible”

          And the NYT helpfully reported that “they stopped short, at least for now, of imposing sanctions against what a senior Obama administration official called vital sectors of the Russian economy: energy, banking and finance, engineering and the arms industry.”

          Hardly “punishing” then.

          And (plenty of other links to the same effect btw)

          President Obama has condemned Russia’s intervention in Ukraine’s Crimean Peninsula, while Secretary of State John Kerry has been meeting with European, Russian and Ukrainian leaders in search of a peaceful resolution to the crisis.

          I can’t find anything on diplomatic expulsions over Crimea. So perhaps Greenwald misspoke in a wide ranging live interview? How fucking terrible! Ah, no. He’s perfidious because he expresses a progressive – very soft progressive perspective.

          You understand my contribution to anything Greenwald says is…zero? Yes? I’m asking because, well, there’s this nonsense in your comment about me not mentioning stuff, even though the post clearly has no substantive input from me by way of expressed opinions.

          Revealing and depressing (as Siobhan notes) that what would have until very recently been seen as fairly mainstream progressive or leftist thought elicits nothing but personal invective on a labour blog. Oh, that and idiotic cheerleading for stuff and nonsense. No wonder “the Trumps” of the world are enjoying something of an ascendancy. 🙁

      • Tricledrown 1.3.3

        Bill your shifting the blame to Obama after the fact.
        Corruption in US politics has become the norm.
        Greenwald came to NZ remember saying he was going to expose the Key govt.
        He came and duped everyone left the Internet party look silly lost them lots of support one has to wonder who’s side he’s on given Assange is another Putin puppet

    • Ad 1.4

      The precise manner and means, as well as the named Russian agents, are detailed in the indictment:


      Granted, everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty, but there’s a fair amount of detail to defend against here. Whether or not they are guilty, they sure ain’t innocent.

      • Tricledrown 1.4.1

        Steve Bannon, Jared Kucshner, Manafort, Donald Trump.
        All deeply involved in this Russian hacking and blitzing voters in the US with fake news and the Brexit vote with Boris Johnston and Farage on the Take.

      • Ad 1.4.2

        The Mueller indictments for the 12 named Russian agents give a pretty clear idea that what Mueller and team hold is far, far greater in knowledge across a massive network of US and foreign nationals than they have thus far revealed.

        Multiple guilty pleas, multiple further indictments, not a single leak. Rosenberg is going to be a saint if he can just fend off the attacks.

        The indictment also provides details of online conversations between the Russians, using the Guccifer 2.0 persona, and “a person who was in regular contact with senior members” of Trump’s presidential campaign. That person has been identified as Roger Stone, a controversial longtime Trump ally.

        In August 2016, according to the indictment, the Russians, using the Guccifer 2.0 front, wrote to Stone: “do u find anyt[h]ing interesting in the docs i posted?” Days later, Guccifer 2.0 wrote again to Stone, saying, “please tell me if i can help u anyhow … it would be a great pleasure to me.” In September, Guccifer 2.0 wrote again, this time asking, “what do u think of the info on the turnout model for the democrats entire presidential campaign.” Stone responded tersely: “[p]retty standard.”

        The indictment also delves into the role of WikiLeaks, identified only as “Organization 1,” which acted as an intermediary between Guccifer 2.0 and the American press.

        And there are of course more answers still to come, such as whether WikiLeaks knew that the hacked materials were coming from the Russians. But what it is clear is that WikiLeaks wanted materials damaging to Clinton’s campaign.

        “In order to expand their interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election,” the indictment says, the Russians “transferred many of the documents they stole from the [Democratic National Committee] and the chairman of the Clinton campaign to Organization 1.” The Russians, “posing as Guccifer 2.0, discussed the release of the stolen documents and the timing of those releases with Organization 1 to heighten their impact on the 2016 U.S. president election.”

        In June 2016, WikiLeaks sent a private message to Guccifer 2.0 asking the persona to send “any new material [stolen from the DNC] here for us to review and it will have a much higher impact than what you are doing.” In July, WikiLeaks sent another message saying, “if you have anything hillary related we want it in the next tweo [sic] days prefable [sic] because the DNC [Democratic National Convention] is approaching and she will solidify bernie supporters behind her after. … we think trump has only a 25% chance of winning against hillary … so conflict between bernie and hillary is interesting.”

        WikiLeaks released more than 20,000 emails and other documents stolen from the Democratic National Committee network three days before the start of the Democratic convention.

        What the indictment – and that’s the right word for it – does get to is minute-by-minute details about how the Russians engineered their hack, how they distributed the information to WikiLeaks, reporters, and others, and even how they paid for it. Indeed, one of the most interesting sections of the indictment alleges that the Russians used bitcoin to anonymously finance different aspects of their cyberattack.

        The Russians “principally used bitcoin when purchasing servers, registering domains, and otherwise making payments in furtherance of hacking activity,” the indictment states. “Many of these payments were processed by companies located in the United States that provided payment processing services to hosting companies, domain registrars, and other vendors.”

        But it really is spy-versus-spy in the counter-spike realm. It includes accounts that appear to have been drawn from real-time U.S. intelligence surveillance of Russian computers watching, searching, and infecting with malware computers belonging to Democratic operatives and staffers.

        For example, the indictment explains how the Russians intentionally deleted logs and computer files to hide their electronic footprints in the DNC system and states that “on occasion, the [Russians] facilitated bitcoin payments using the same computers that they used to conduct their hacking activity, including to create and send test spearphishing emails. Additionally, one of these dedicated accounts was used by the [Russians] in or around 2015 to renew the registration of a domain (linuxkrnl.net) encoded in certain X-Agent malware installed on the DNC network.”

        Now, of course, Greenwald misses the point that almost all those with indictments against their name have pleaded guilty if they’ve been within the reach of US justice. But then he would, because he cannot possibly see a reason for any state intelligence service to exist.

        Coming next is the Manafort trial, where we will expect to see yet another almighty spill of fresh information on exactly how the Russians sought to aid and support the Trump campaign, together with the vast series of side-deals to keep the whole machine oiled and rolling.

        Plenty of questions, but a lot more getting answered. And all of it weighing on the Russian influence upon Donald Trump, which is pretty clear to see now.

        • Tricledrown

          Ad well said only Trump groupies would disagree.

        • Dennis Frank

          You’ve made a good case that Russian spooks did intervene to try & get Trump. I thought they did already. So I think the point is really whether Trump requested or orchestrated that. I don’t believe evidence that he did will appear via personal testimony from either hackers or Trump underlings. More likely from the latter, of course, to escape prosecution.

          These politically-motivated smoke&mirrors prosecutions are designed to sway voters in the mid-terms, to fool them into thinking where there’s smoke there’s fire (or at least a smoking gun), to create the belief in the existence of evidence of crime when the prosecutor believes no actual evidence will be found.

          • Ad

            We are already seeing multiple contacts in his campaign seeking direct foreign assistance.

            More to come.

      • Bill 1.4.3

        Whether or not they are guilty, they sure ain’t innocent.

        The evidence won’t be presented until a trial or until Robert Mueller actually issues a report to Congress. And so, I would certainly hope that we are not at the point, which I think we seem to be at, where we are now back to believing that when the CIA makes statements and assertions and accusations, or when prosecutors make statements and assertions and accusations, unaccompanied by evidence that we can actually evaluate, that we’re simply going to believe those accusations on faith…

        You’ve arrived Ad, you’ve arrived.

    • A perfect exhibition of “Trump Derangement Syndrome” here ….anybody that disagrees with the Trump bashers is an “unthinking fool”. I though this type of ad hominen attack was forbidden on this blog. Apparently not. I disagree with all your pre-existing prejudices Iprent. I’ll take Greenwald over an amateur blogger/computer programmer in a far away Isle any day.

  2. Booker 2

    Thank you for this – will definitely listen to the whole interview. At last someone talking some sense!

  3. cleangreen 3


    I agree entirely as the ‘left wing’ of which I am one has been captured by the George Soros emtermists as they have an agenda to take power back to control the whole world now so just see what George Soros is up to now.

    The left need to dis-associate ouirselves from the “dirty money of the likes of George soros.

    Glenn Greenwald is right to point to the left wing as corruted as we see now the right wing extremists have taken us over by corruption using dirty money.

    Right wing activists are now infiltraing Labour movements all over the world it seems and I wonder if it is being done with corrupt money from George Soros as he has been actively funding political actions for years and taking over even US voting companies we hear now.

    He is somehow even involved in the largest global electronic voting systems company centred in Spain now.


    “A Spanish vote-tabulation firm with ties to billionaire globalist George Soros is purchasing software to give it greater power over the voting in U.S. elections.

    In a press release under a Barcelona and Tampa, Florida dateline, Scytl announced”

    Soros now has bought the ‘New York Times’ also and sends out his own liesthrough the New York Times where the NZ media picks up his lies and parrots when to us now through our own media.


    “After throwing more than $10.5 million into Hillary Clinton’s failed election bid in 2016, Soros has also made no bones about his desire to see President Donald Trump –who he recently called the “ultimate narcissist”– impeached and removed from office. Trump’s victory reportedly cost Soros almost a billion dollars on the market.

    Since Trump’s election, Soros has taken to sponsoring leftist candidates in district attorney races across the country, in a bid to reshape the American justice system in his own progressive image. After donating $50 million to the American Civil Liberties Union in 2014, he has spent over $9 million funding candidates in 14 cities. In San Diego alone, he spent $1.5 million propping up Democrat Geneviéve Jones-Wright’s unsuccessful campaign.

    “Soros is well known for his liberal views, however, and publicly supports –and funds– a variety of progressive and neoliberal causes, through NGOs like his Open Society Foundations.”

    • Tricledrown 3.1

      Clean green Soros was open about his support for the Clinton campaign.
      Putin still denies.
      The New American a far right publication Bob Halderman Nixon man.
      Clean green your links are to far right propaganda sites.

      • Stuart Munro 3.1.1

        Soros is an interesting choice of villain, he resiled from the strong form of market determinism in the wake of the Asian financial crisis. Were one looking for the core of financial manipulation and banker autocracy the Rothschilds would be much better suspects.

        Soros was instrumental however in organizing a rescue package for the Ukraine, without which it would no doubt have fallen under Russian control.

  4. Ah yes, mess with the MSM narrative and pay the price, its like the Cold War never ended…I’m waiting for someone to address the actual points raised by Greenwald (and Bill) rather than general personal attacks and “I think’s”.

    This isn’t a pissing contest boys.

    • Tricledrown 4.1

      With out George Soros the left would collapse
      The Russian hackers breitbart, info Wars
      Jared Kucshner all the really crooked billionaires money laundering oligarchs would have a free reign.
      Theirs a lot of fake news directly targeting Soros because he funds democratic socialism.
      As opposed to the neo Fascists who are undermining Democracy by creating divisiness.
      Hobson’s choice far right soft peddlers pre paid exclusive brethren.

      • Siobhan 4.1.1

        George Soros is not a representative of the Left.
        Making money from hedge fund’s is not done in the interests of the workers and the strugglers.
        It is, no matter where he spends that money, an abomination to the Left cause. And, in fact an anathema to any sort of decent society no matter its leanings.

        • Tricledrown

          Siobhan Soros hates extremism of any kind including communism.
          Democratic Socialism requires a successful market economy to fund universal health care education etc.
          This picture Greenwald is painting is to make Greenwald some sort of Martyr.
          He is no Carl Bernstein.
          Wikileaks got played by the Trump/Bannon/Putin Russian Mafia.
          As a result have lost all credability.
          Ecuador is now a target of CIA interference.
          The US wants a right wing govt in Ecuador so they can extradite wiki man from the London embassy.

          • McFlock

            And on the flipside, Ecuador have the wikiman to bargain with.

            New administration in Washington, diplomatic feelers go out, nice little summit/meeting at APEC or similar, Assange is out on his arse and US/Ecuador become more friendly.

          • cleangreen


            If Soros is left wing, why is he high up in “the Bilderberg Grouip” who are known dark ops group operations and represents the bulk of the “Global Elite who rape the global resouces as we speak?

      • One Two 4.1.2

        You believe Soros funds democratic socialism…

        Oh dear…No, he does nothing of the sort…

        Only a dearth of worldly experience could lead to such a comment…

        Even a modicum of entry level reading into the funding and operational vehicles of Soros globally, would taper such a belief…

        • Tricledrown

          12 another uppercut for you if you believe all the BS of the info Wars breitbart Trump Bannon/Putin you would draw that conclusion.
          But look at what Soros funds.
          Black lives matter
          Me too
          Open free education in the Ukraine where fascism is rising.
          Soros’s life brought about his dislike for extremism of any kind.
          Trump /Putin Farage Netenyahu are all targeted by Soros even the National Party in NZ.

          • One Two

            Perhaps you don’t realise what you’ve done with that response…

            What you have done is confirm my initial comment to you about having a dearth of worldy experience…it was clear to me through your writing…

            That you believe the way to understand this world is through citing the controlled ‘alt-right’ to use a label you can relate to…

            That you believe those who may ‘know’ differently to you have been spoon fed their information …again citing ‘alt-right’ media…

            Look at what Soros funds, indeed…do you have any idea at all…

            Were you going to provide some actual examples…using places and experiences you have had first hand?…

            Go ahead and provide a list to Soros funded groups around the world…choose one or two from each of the major regions…and we can then talk through the hot spots…and the pros/cons of the ‘benevolent’ social democracy supporting philanthropist…

            • Tricledrown

              12 you can look up links yourself but your link have Bannon breitbart Kucshner Putin all over them.
              The people Soros is holding to account.
              He is the only mega billionaire to stick up for Social Democracy.
              That’s why he is being hammered by those he opposes.
              He is open and up front about his funding and who he funds

              Not like his denegrators.

              • One Two

                My links?.

                What are you talking about, trickledrown ?

                I made a simple request, which you ignored…you’re the one making claims for which you can’t or won’t even provide mainstream information about the man you’re endorsing and the vehicles used to fund global activity…

                Clealy the word discernment is not one you know, let alone put into practice…

                All the best with the journey…it’s all in front of you…

        • Tricledrown

          12 given your political bent I’d expect your cynicism.
          The most recent interview with Soros.
          George Soros has said he gave £500,000 to another referendum campaign for Brexit considering the Russian interference (millions of pounds and the fake news via social media) in the last vote.
          How ever he also tempered that with the admission that the EU needs to clean up its ACT if it doesn’t want to be split up.
          A reasonable and moderate man!
          12 he uses his own money not Russian/US Mafia money.

            • Dennis Frank

              Yeah, reminds me why I get irritated whenever a couple of my old friends do their `demonise Soros’ thing, apparently having forgotten all the times I’ve reprimanded them about that in bygone years. Alzheimers, perhaps, but they can still talk sense on other topics.

              I read his first book Alchemy of Finance quarter of a century back, and check out his others sometimes. He’s clever, well-intentioned, a genuine philanthropist, but too old-fashioned for me apart from that. A true liberal (to me liberal has meant brain-dead since ’71, so he’s not typical!). His view of Brexit is so one-sided I can only dismiss it as irrelevant. Blairite!

              Popper & Soros are locked into an antiquated world-view. Soros is a globalist during a period of history when globalism has become discredited as a geopolitical trend. Too many folks now know that it is merely a Bilderberger strategy and not the organic confluence of progress of civilisation that it seemed in the early nineties.

              • Tricledrown

                Dennis Frank you obviously haven’t read the history of trade.
                I have studied the history of economics and trade.
                The World has been going towards globalisation since the beginning of civilization and is the driving force behind civilization.
                Nothing is going to stop globalisation.
                There will be a few blips along the way.
                That may slow it down but countries that opt out become poorer.

                • Dennis Frank

                  Yeah, I agree that as an overall trend it will prove unstoppable. Could be we’re in a blip as you say, but could also turn out to be a substantial regress into nationalism. I agree with you about the effect of trade (I’ve integrated an overview of the past three millennia as a result of reading history & prehistory since I was a kid).

          • One Two

            Tell me what “my political bent” is…off you go…

            a reasonable and moderate man…uses his own money

            Trickledrown…fair play…that’s your level it seems…

            All the very best…

            • Tricledrown

              12 your flippancy has no bounds where are your links.
              Thanks joe90.

    • Ad 4.2

      Any particular points you want to see covered?

      Or in fact, would you like to address them yourself?

      • Siobhan 4.2.1

        For starters…are we now calling Obama a fool, or possibly even a traitor for being willing to meet with and negotiate with The Russians?.

        And, while not mentioned in the article, if Trump is so bad and controlled by The Russians why did the Democrats give him increased domestic spying powers?

        Personally ‘I think’ I am quite willing to ‘believe’ the Russians nefariously ‘interfered’ to some level in the Election, as did The DNC and The Republican Party and FaceBook etc etc. Thats what happens on ‘the interweb’. And Lets face it, when it comes to interfering in foreign elections, and results, the Americans are not amateurs, so why wouldn’t they do it at home.

        However I also consider this a distraction.
        Cheerleading us back into another Cold War with the Ruskies serves no purpose OTHER THAN to distract the people from the real issues..the issue should be about the rebalancing of People and Power, and Wealth and Power distribution in Western Democracies.

        The greatest threat to Democracy in America is the main political parties. Both parties have a vested interest in keeping the public distracted by this carry on.

        And bizarley this issue of ‘Trump and The Russians’ manages to derail all political discourse even in NZ. Reading blogs here you would think nothing else is happening of importance.
        It really is the (supposed) biggest thing since 9/11. it will be interesting to see what new laws and powers will be introduced, and we will be subjected to, in the name of defending us from this ‘threat’.

        • lprent

          Perhaps you have forgotten how the Cold War started? Try looking it up some time rather than whining about it. The reasons for it happening haven’t gone away. It just hasn’t happened for a while.

          The basic cause was the way that the USSR attempted and succeeded in the disruption of political systems through Eastern Europe and elsewhere during and after the second world war. In some cases there were military based takeovers with local puppets. In others there was direct covert disruption of the political systems to create local puppet governments.

          The response from virtually all political entities at the end of the war at the time was to try to form a system to prevent or at least limit military takeovers of neighboring states (the UN), and to provide a mutual defense system against it happening again with the formation of formal military alliances like NATO.

          Sure, the US has been known for invading or fiddling with other countries as well. The second war in Iraq was a classic example of the same stupidity. But it is a disruptive and dangerous way to cause unexpected and unforeseen problems in the international community – as the US found out again.

          The problem is currently not the US unless their idiotic partisan political system manages to spill out into the world in a similar fashion. Of which Trump appears to be the leading example of that trend.

          However Russia is currently doing the same kinds of idiotic things that the George W Bush regime did post 9/11 with Iraq and their over the top terrorism responses.

          While Russia’s ones are also being largely done for a domestic audience. But instead of involving lightly populated regions with limited weaponry, they involve some of the most dangerous regions in the world.

          Historically covertly interfering in the internal politics of a large well armed nation has long been the second most common reason for the widespread war. Think of what happened with Austro-Hungry in 1914

          The first cause is of course outright invasion of neighbors or the annexation of parts of their territory. Poland in 1939 for instance. Or the Ukraine right next to the heavy armaments up to nuclear weaponry of the NATO nations

          For anyone with any sense of history, what Russia is currently engaged in is far more dangerous than a bunch of Saudi nutbars doing an act of terrorism. It is hardly an equitable comparison by you. Looks more like a simple-mind diversion instead.

          • In Vino

            Since you mention a sense of history lprent, are you sure that the Crimea is irredeemably Ukrainian at heart? From what I remember of history, the Crimea under Lenin and Stalin was run by Russia, not the Ukraine. Stalin’s nasty habit of brutally transplanting entire nationalities meant that the Tartars were evicted from Crimea, and replaced with Russians, who became the majority. Stalin’s successor (Khrushchev) was himself a Ukrainian, and for some reason during his reign (1950s) he switched the admin of Crimea from Russia to the Ukraine. It is certain that at the time Khrushchev never entertained the thought that the Ukraine and Russia would later become opponents: he believed that the USSR would endure long enough to bury the decadent Western Capitalist system.
            Historically, I see the Ukraine’s claim to Crimea as tenuous, and I suspect that the majority of Crimeans voting to go with Russia in a referendum is no more shonky than a few recent USA elections have been.
            Tibet is another case in point which has made me very wary about propaganda about who is ‘expanding’ and ‘annexing’ what territories.
            (During WW2 the US Department of Information stated that Tibet was the 5th province of the great nation of China. But when Mao and the Communists took over China, Tibet miraculously became an autonomous nation, later to be most cruelly invaded by the foreign Chinese. Irony much?)

            • lprent

              Since you mention a sense of history lprent, are you sure that the Crimea is irredeemably Ukrainian at heart?

              Hah. I never said that. (Please don’t put words into my mouth)

              Frankly it isn’t hard to make a case that as states neither Russia nor Ukraine have any claim or real history with Crimea. Neither have much of a history there, and the Russian history with it borders on being that of savagery.

              But what I was pointing out was that the Crimea was annexed to Russia by the means of a infiltration military operation by Russian federation troops, followed by a illegally created puppet regime, and the completely bogus ‘referendum’ that made no more than a token pretense at consulting the residents of the Crimea.

              In other words it was quite clearly an annexation operation that was illegal under all international law. It was appropriately dealt with without the international community or individual nations going to war over it (which was what Obama was pointing out) with the ongoing economic sanctions.

              International law is also quite clear on “shonky” internal politics. It tends to provide exceptions for genocide, ethnic cleansing, exporting terror tactics outside borders, piracy, and things that affect other nations. But generally it regards self-determination as being that it is up to the residents of a nation how they run the place.

              • In Vino

                Agree, Lprent. But your last sentence – it is up to the residents of a nation ..etc: Crimea has been left with residents who have now been there for several generations, and it is not surprising that the majority of them voted for Russia rather than Ukraine. Not likely to be shonky.
                You did not say that Crimea is Ukranian at heart, but you implied it when you cast aspersion upon the referendum.

        • Tricledrown

          Siobhan your out of touch with reality
          Empires want to maintain borders and power Russia is pushing back by expanding its influence after 25years of Western influence on former Soviet territories.
          Putin is using every means at his disposal.
          When oil prices fell the Russian economy went backwards.
          Putin stimulated the economy by rebuilding his armies Navy and Airforce
          Modernising Russia’s military stealing Western technology just as the USSR did in the cold War.
          The other initiative Putin did was hugely increase Arms exports at the same time got involved in foreign conflicts again for the first time since the cold War.
          All making money for Putin and his Russian Mafia henchman kick backs to Trump Inc.
          Syria now since Obama left office has become a diviy up on arms sales and influence between Trump and Putin.

          • In Vino

            Trickledrown – why do you expect Russia to react any differently to the USA or any other power that may be afflicted by what you call ‘influence’. The West has dishonoured the agreement made with Russia at the time of the dissolution of the USSR. That is us, Trickledrown – the people you seem to see as morally superior.
            I think I prefer Siobhan’s perspective to yours.

    • lprent 4.3

      A. I don’t have time now (or usually ever), I am at work writing code.

      B. I can’t see any points actually worth arguing about in the above selective representations. In EVERY bit of it it carefully misses out actions that were actually taken. Instead there is some selective quoting which attempts to frame the debate about a small number of points that are meaningless . Yeah I could attempt to educate Bill – but as you can see I think it is pretty pointless and I really don’t have time.

      C. Basically what I see in the post is an exercise in very simple crude and rather stupid propaganda using well-known techniques of selective quoting and selection of facts, allied with a framing of memes to minimize issues. In short it is PR bullshit of the type that I see everyday in statements from various PR companies. Consequently I treat it as simply not being worth enaging with.

      D. What I would like to discuss is why we have a PR release as a post.

      BTW: If you’d like to actually deal with the few points I have already raised, then I’ll be happy to see what you have to say.

      For starter try equating the selectively quoted statements in the post about Obama’s response to Crimea with the widespread and continuing economic sanctions against Russia that were imposed as a direct result of Obama responding to the invasion and annexation of Crimea.

      I’d say that pretty clearly shows the selective quoting in the post was an outright lie of omission – what do you think?

      • Adrian Thornton 4.3.1

        @ Iprent,
        “Curious that neither Greenwald or yourself didn’t mention those. That is kind of my point. Selective quoting or misrepresentation of basic facts pisses me off. I tend to react to it as someone lying – because that is what it is.”

        Strange that you seem so uptight about liars, here is a quote from the head of the
        Special Counsel investigation that we are all meant to believe without any debate or questioning…

        Robert S. Mueller,
        Director, Federal Bureau of Investigation Feb. 11, 2003

        “As we previously briefed this Committee, Iraq’s WMD program poses a clear threat to our national security, a threat that will certainly increase in the event of future military action against Iraq. Baghdad has the capability and, we presume, the will to use biological, chemical, or radiological weapons against US domestic targets in the event of a US invasion”

        The direct result of these lies is the deaths of untold humans, untold human misery that continues to this day…

        Yes you are right to get uptight about propaganda and lairs…I know I do.

        • Dennis Frank

          Mueller’s track record of evidence-based decisions is what got him the job of proving Trump got Putin to take out Hilary. Senators & Congress reps in the USA believe this, apparently. Thanks for reminding us…

        • lprent

          The direct result of these lies is the deaths of untold humans, untold human misery that continues to this day…

          And if you ever look at my commentary around the net about the Iraq war both before it happened and afterwards, I was more than vehement that the “intelligence” that was used to justify it was complete crap and clearly wrong.

          The problem was that Saddam Hussein and the Baath were actively trying to bluff, which when it was allied to the external Iraqi opposition bullshitting caused everyone (who wanted to) to doubt the accurate information that UN disarmament bodies had been providing.

          These days there is a much clearer knowledge of the actual effects of economic sanctions that there was at the end of the 1990s.

          Whereas Afghanistan was just as clearly as a matter for the international community to deal with because of their active export of terrorism to surrounding nations.

          Which is why

          But as I have said before, you are dealing in stupid false equivalences. The material the Mueller is dealing in now will be tested in a court with a lot of defense going on.

          The situation in 2003 could have done with having a forum with the same level of scrutiny. It may have still come to the ‘wrong’ decision (although the UN general assembly did not). But it’d have been a hell of a lot less likely than having an elected monarch making a dumb decision because he thought that the evidence was wrong in the wake of terrorist attack.

          And FFS: how about taking actual notice of what I write rather than trying to shove words from your own head into my mouth.

      • Bill 4.3.2

        For starter try equating the selectively quoted statements in the post about Obama’s response to Crimea with the widespread and continuing economic sanctions against Russia that were imposed as a direct result of Obama responding to the invasion and annexation of Crimea.

        I’d say that pretty clearly shows the selective quoting in the post was an outright lie of omission – what do you think?

        You knock yourself out finding any reference to Crimea in the interview (from either Greenwald or even Cirinione for that matter) that isn’t included in the post Lynn.

        You want a post that’s an up front, selective summary of things said in a debate, to include shit you want to hear (that was never said), and that you think is ‘correct’, just shoehorned in?

        As for this bullshit you’re spouting about (variously) “punishing” and “widespread” sanctions that Obama imposed on Russia post Crimea – that’s been addressed above (links provided)

        Yeah I could attempt to educate Bill – but as you can see I think it is pretty pointless and I really don’t have time,

        There are definitely some things you could ‘educate’ me on, “Big Man”. But politics isn’t one of them…way out of your depth it seems 😉

    • Morrissey 4.4

      Yes it is, Siobhan—well it is from one side of this debate. That’s all the demonizers of Russia have in their arsenal.

      It was nicely summed up by one “Otter” in the comments section in The Intercept….

      Good debate. Glenn really debunked some of the narratives that so many just swallow without any critical examination. I was disappointed that Joe repeated some of these. e.g. ” – Putin interfered with the U.S. election to help elect Donald Trump.” Even the recent indictments of G.R.U. agents specifically disclaims any notion that the (alleged) Russian attempts had any material outcome in the election.

      This is an essential point, because much of the current anti-Russian hysteria is based on the notion that “Russia has hacked / is threatening our democracy”. Of course, that meme is inherently disingenuous, in ignoring that the greatest damage to democracy (and threats to its vestiges) has come from within the U.S. , via the control of elections and policy by corporate cash; and secondly, from the lobbies of AIPAC, UAE and Saudi Arabia (as Glenn says).

      The understandable disgust / angst with Trump is producing a flood of very emotional (again, understandable) responses; including the turning of many self-proclaimed “liberals” into cheerleaders for aggressive confrontation of Russia and Putin. As Greenwald noted, many Democrats are now out-flanking the Trump Administration on the right…becoming even more hawkish than before (and that’s saying something). And sadly, they are being cheered on by a segment of the liberals who ignore history and now believe everything our intelligence services put out for mass consumption.

      This can only increase pressures for: 1) increased military spending in the U.S. and NATO, 2) a renewed arms race, and an increase, not decrease, of nuclear weapons in the world.; 3) more support within Russia for Putin, as he represents strength in the face of an increasingly hostile (to Russia) world; 4) Further depletion of national treasury and increase in national debt, threatening both national autonomy and the economic security of U.S. citizens. It is disappointing that Joe Cirincione is playing to this, given his otherwise wise past work with Ploughshares.

      • Adrian Thornton 4.4.1

        @Morrissey +1

      • Ad 4.4.2

        Who here is “cheerleading for aggressive confrontation of Russia and Putin”?

        All I am expecting is that a US President holds a serious meeting with the leader of Russia and gets something substantial out of it. Because that is what actual political work achieves in such meetings since World War 2.

        So far, as with every other international meeting Trump has held, he has delivered nothing.

        It’s truly marvellous the way that increased expenditure on the Pentagon is the fault of the Democrats when it is the Republicans that propose and vote on the budget, hold every single layer of elected Federal government, all branches of Cabinet government, and have fully tilted the Supreme Court and the Appeals courts in their favour as well. So no, increased military spending is not the fault of “the left”.

        The person who is being blamed for the failure of the meeting with Putin is Donald Trump. Because he is not doing his job.

      • lprent 4.4.3

        It simply doesn’t matter if the external interference was effective or not.

        What was discussed in the Zimmerman telegram was never viable. However it was sufficient to push a reluctant country into a war.

        The reason why was because it was covert and it was waging an undeclared war. History is replete with such examples of such tactics leading to wide scale wars.

        Countries are entitled to fuck up their own country politically or otherwise. That is why Russia has a average death age for males that is in the early 60s while that of women is 75 or higher (we probably won’t know until the next census).

        Any rational country would have curbed the alcoholism that causes that. Just as the US would have done something rational about the causes of their appalling turnout rates. Or the way that their constitution has a built in bias due to some slavery compromises made back in the 18th and 19th centuries.

        International law is pretty clear on this. It is also clear that a state deliberately going in to another country and trying to subvert the political process covertly is a grounds for war. Between the US and Russia that is a disaster scenario and one that is feckless, reckless, and as stupid as you apparently are.,

        • Morrissey

          International law is pretty clear on this. It is also clear that a state deliberately going in to another country and trying to subvert the political process covertly is a grounds for war.

          So, applying your logic, about half the world has the right to go to war against the United States. You know, and everyone else here knows, that Russia’s meddling in the U.S. election farce was as nothing compared to the United States’ regular and repeated violent overthrowing of democratic governments, and its willful destruction of democracy all over the world, from—-just to name a few—Indonesia to Vietnam to the Congo to South Africa to Chile to Honduras to Greece to Egypt to the Palestinian Territories.

          Between the US and Russia that is a disaster scenario and one that is feckless, reckless, and as stupid as you apparently are.,

          Do you really think I get intimidated by someone calling me names like that?

          • Ad

            Here’s the analysis of all Russian electoral interventions between 1991 and 2017.


            The first wave to 2014 was in post-Soviet states.
            Since then they’ve branched out.

            You can go through the list yourself.

            You could also check whether US interference in global elections has increased or decreased since the collapse of the Soviet Union i.e something a little more recent than Manufacturing Consent.

            • Morrissey

              Oh, so you’re having a go at Chomsky now, are you? You’re a really clever guy, quite clearly.

              You think my analysis starts and finishes with Chomsky, do you?

              • Ad

                It generally does. And you know it.

                But then, you are one of the laziest writers on this site.

                Otherwise you would have gone through the multiple instances of post Cold War Russian interference in elections from the cited reference and pulled a few of them apart.

                Or actually addressed points instead of setting up another weak straw person argument. But you don’t have that capacity.

                You have no ability to change your mind.

            • Drowsy M. Kram

              In a follow-up analysis of their list of Russian electoral interventions between 1991 and 2017, the same authors (Way and Casey) conclude that Russian meddling has made little difference. So, Russia gets an ‘A’ for effort, while the US gets an ‘A’ for making a ‘difference’.

              We identified two waves of Russian meddling since the early 1990s. The first wave lasted until 2014 and targeted only post-Soviet countries. Since then, a second wave has expanded dramatically into established Western democracies.

              However, an examination of both of these waves shows that Russia’s efforts have made little difference.


        • Dennis Frank

          “The Zimmerman telegram” (Barbara Tuchman, 1958) is perhaps the best history book I’ve ever read (I’ve got hundreds, read even more from the library too). Like a thriller, her account of that nexus of code-breaking, geopolitics & narcissism of political leaders. Also it’s an example of the relevance of compexity theory: the sudden phase shift of mass opinion in a huge body-politic balanced between pro- and anti-German feeling, triggered by the explosive headlines it caused.

      • You and Siobhan (and Greenwald) have it right Morrisey. The most vocal poster on Bills post, and the one attacking other posters with childish name calling, is way wrong – on almost everything he/she posts. These comments perfectly illustrate that these proclaimed “liberal” cheerleaders, who can’t except that their side lost the election by running a terrible candidate, ARE THE PROBLEM. Not Trump.

        • Morrissey

          I don’t say Trump is not a problem, Dennis. He’s without question the worst, most offensive, most obnoxious politician in the world. What I and many other people are so disappointed about—-actually we are very angry about it—-is that the so-called “leaders” of the Democratic Party, and their media megaphones like CNN and the New York Times have spent nearly all their time chasing this Russian chimera, and all but ignoring the very real crimes and outrages that Trump and his grotesque cronies are carrying out—from trashing the education system, to removing all environmental protection standards, and abusing Hispanics even more ferociously than Obama’s regime did.

          • Ad

            Is there any particular news source that ignores them that you have in mind?

            Did you miss the coverage of the teachers strikes, or #MeToo, or Black Lives Matter, or oil pipelines, or mass shootings, or the reversals of Obamacare, from every single damn news station and newspaper and site?

            In fact the main news stations that suppress these issues are actually the strongest supporters of President Trump. Namely, the Sinclair News outlets and the Fox News outlets.

            So actually the coverage is clear and resolute, and actually the Democrats re often winning elections on precisely these issues, since they poll so well.

            So far, no one has tried to win elections agent Republicans soley on the basis of the Russian attacks against the 2016 elections. Who knows, someone will be up for it once all the trials and mailings and convictions are done.

            You need the actual demonstrated ability to walk and chew gum at the same time.

          • Dennis Merwood

            I agree..not to mention the liberally biased media is ignoring the real crimes of the crooked Democratic Party machine, and the lefts complete failure to deliver us Americans Universal Healthcare, a reduction in militarism, a living wage, fair trade, and a fair shake for the working man. Hillary’s party sadly became more right than the Party represented by Ronald Reagan. Obama, who my family voted for twice, was a total flop. He never achieved one thing he promised us. He was Bush 2.0. With Hillary and the DNC screwing Bernie Sanders, and Obama’s failures, many of us had no choice but to write off the Democrats and go with Trump with the maybe naive hope that he would deliver on his anti war campaign promises.

            • cleangreen

              Thanks Dennis;

              Off course you can add that it was Obama/Hilary who were visablly supported by the global corporations too.

              Not really what we would have expected from a left wing party.

              Democratic party was already under the influence of the Global elitists.

  5. Ad 5

    “On Trump meeting with Putin in Helskinki”

    Trump trashed the solid results of many Republican Presidents in detente with the Russians over decades.

    If Greenwald had any sense of history he would have confirmed his knowledge of the broad spectrum peace agreement hammered out in 1975, yes in Helskinki, by Gerald Ford, Russian leaders, and multiple other countries on a very strong set of human rights agreements.

    This meeting with Trump and Putin delivered fuck all, as expected. Which is the stupidity you get from Greenwald who hopes so much that Trump is substantive and Putin is trustworthy.

    Actual diplomatic results take months and often years to pre-negotiate before a successful summit is formed.

    Trump has utterly no idea, and since this interview was taken before the actual meeting, clearly neither does Greenwald on the matter.

  6. Brutus Iscariot 6

    There were only 3 non-neocon candidates in the entire Republican and Democratic fields for the 2016 primaries. Those being Rand Paul, Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump. Admittedly, some of the others were perhaps of indeterminate ideology (Carson), but the field was quickly reduced.

    All those had a chance to publicly clarify their foreign relations outlooks in debates etc. It was quite clear by that point that the aforementioned 3 were cut from a slightly different cloth to the rest of the field (and their predecessors). Clinton on the other hand undoubtedly belonged on the stage with the most hawkish Republicans like Rubio, Graham and McCain (anyone remember her gleeful “we came, we saw, he died” quote on Colonel Gaddafi?).

    If you’re Russia, it would be natural to have a preference to work with someone who could aspire to a non-hostile relationship with you. Or at least a relationship that was transactional, not bathed in the glow of American moral superiority and exceptionalism. It’s in this light that you should view the Trump/Putin relationship, not something conspiratorial.

    The question is would Russia have had a dog in the fight, had it been Sanders v Trump ? I’d suggest not.

  7. Tricledrown 7

    Brutus Idiot anyone defending Trump Putin love fest is bonkers.
    Why not slag Mueller the republican prosecutor.
    Manafort’direct funding from Putins right hand man.
    NRA infiltration.
    The longer this treasonous betrayal goes on the more worms come out of the wood work any one defending it is not being honest.
    Nixon I am not a crook.
    Keep going back to Clinton to excuse Trump Putin Colusion is shifting the blame and rather lame.
    The Arab spring was thought to be a good idea at the time but has proven again the West should keep out of other countries business since the Vietnam War the US has only successfully invaded the island of Granada.

  8. Meh.

    Didn’t Trump say he thought Putin was OK during the election campaigns, didn’t he say he was going to have a look at the deep state and clip their wings somewhat ? ( JFK stated something even more decisive when he said he was ” going to smash the CIA into a thousand pieces ” , – pretty radical fighting talk during the McCarthy era as well ).

    OK . So he releases statements said at meetings with the deep state operatives, – at once praising them ( rank and file ) but conducting a purge of the ones in collusion with military hardware production who benefit from a sustained and continual state of active or cold war…

    Trumps a businessman . Hes a nationalist. And he has a businessman’s cunning.

    You really think hes going to conduct himself like a ‘ politician’ ? Hes not like the globalist George Soros. Hes not motivated by the notion of a centralized world government for a start. And this is why he seems to be contradictory at times.

    Hes angling. A slippery fish. He couldn’t give a shit about a globalist one world govt because he simply wants to ‘ make America great again’. And he also couldn’t give a shit about his detractors. He will offend the English with his parading like a peacock with the Queen, he will tell Theresa May shes doing it all wrong , and he will happily advise Merkel that’s shes barking up the wrong tree.

    He couldn’t give a shit.

    Have nuclear bombs rained down on America from North Korea?

    Has world war three erupted from bombing Assads lot , – and by association… opposing the Russians?

    About the only bunch he has had to negotiate a minefield is , is with the Chinese, – and even then , – not regarding the Southern seas off China but about trade. Face it … all those who we all deemed ‘enemy’s’ have been pacified by the Donald. Much to the Soros camp’s consternation’s.

    What is far more interesting , however,… is the Donald’s moving of the U.S embassy to Jerusalem , – and by symbolic gesture … announcing that contested city as Israels unofficial capital.

    Once again ,… a businessman’s mind at work. Not a politicians.

    Hes looking at trade ,.. ultimately. Not peripheral and temporal titivation’s about who did what in the elections.

    But I think he may also have gotten wind of this :

    Urgent 2017 Rebuilding The Third Temple is beginning – YouTube
    Video for documentary rebuilding the third temple you tube▶ 44:15

    In which case , ( and note the low key approach by Israeli archaeologists who know full well the ramifications of their discovery’s…) … much of all the bloodshed and antagonisms and divisiveness may come to a resounding end … and that will spell the death knell to the lucrative global arms industry’s concerning the Middle East regards Israel…

    • Tricledrown 8.1

      Not even wild Katipo the idea might be good the facts maybe correct but when has that ever stopped Dogmatic ideologies from going to War.
      The life of Brian.
      Where you have poverty you will have conflict someone will invent a new religion that’s at odd’s with others.
      History tells us that

      • WILD KATIPO 8.1.1

        Interestingly ,… last night I actually watched Monty Pythons ‘Life of Brian’ ,.. it was a hoot…

        Almost seems a case of synchronicity in you saying that…creepy….

        The Police – Synchronicity II – YouTube
        Video for synchronicity the police you tube▶ 4:45

  9. Tricledrown 9

    Look where jfk ended up.
    Biblical references yeah right.

    • Apply yourself and get over preconceptions.

      Just watch the video and take in what learned scholars, and archaeologists are saying.

      That’s what good science instructs us to do.

      And the reasons to sit up and take notice is because if either you , I or anybody else has other issues or prejudices , – this WILL affect global politics whether we like it or not.

    • Tricledrown 9.2

      Wild Katipo Google Donald Trumps links to Mafia financing his business
      Russia Mafia financing.
      Kucshner Trumps son in laws links to the Russian Mafia.
      Then Donald Junior.
      Then Mike Pence’s rise from nowhere Russians financed his campaign.
      Manafort buys into Trump Tower with laundered Russian Mafia money.
      God you are a gullible person.
      Using a fairy conspiracy story to qualify yourself.

  10. Yeah he may or may not have done all those things…

    But that’s not what I am saying, … and even then , sources are dubious or at least even subjective as seen through the lenses of sources you may or may not be quoting.

    There’s a good chance you may even be right , – or you could be completely wrong.

    Fact is , all the doomsayers and all the detractors saying this and that will happen have been proven wrong. With the result being the exact opposite. If that offends, so be it.

    And to be frank?- I dont think the Donald is ruffled by stepping on the toes of a few haloed institutions or individuals . Clearly he is not. I think his angling is far further on down the track than you or I even could credit. As are the motivations of the man.

    Hes a nationalist, he is a businessman.

    Not a politician.

    • Tricledrown 10.1

      Wild Katipo he’s not a very good business man and like wise politician.
      He is a wise guy alah Mafia.
      You are bonkers if you think he is anything else.
      Refer to how many businesses he has bankrupted and who has bailed him out.
      Not a politician Trump has been involved in politics for a very long time.
      He has had political ambitions from way back.
      Read a little wider than his own belious BS.

      • WILD KATIPO 10.1.1

        You are missing the point. Entirely. In your opinion he is this or that. You point to connections with this mafia or that being Sicilian, Russian or any number of others.

        You criticize his business capabilities. Fair enough. But he is very wealthy regardless . With time on his hands pre being the President to form his own opinions. I think you still do not realize his motivations. I also think so many also do the same. And then there are the lazy thinkers who simply digest the George Soro’s mass global media and take it all at face value. The example I gave in Jerusalem is but one possible conviction he might have.

        Placing the U.S embassy closer to Jerusalem is a hint .

        And I shall explain : If the third temple is to be built in the city of David as opposed to an old Roman fortress named Antonius,.. means that the Muslims get to have their Dome of the Rock , the Jews get to have their third Temple rebuilt and the animal sacrifices restored after 2000 years.

        This , – will go a long way towards a ‘temporary’ peace in the middle east. A dubious ‘peace’, but a ‘peace’ nonetheless. I think politicians have been waiting a long time for Israeli archaeologists to finally dig the truth up. This is what I am referring to .

        And ‘peace’ in the middle east WILL upset ALL of those industry’s that thrive on a state of perpetual war to sell their wares…many of which are to be found in the United States of America. And that WILL cause massive change in foreign policy’s of leading nations.

        As well as piss off many oligarchs and their co workers who thrived on that state of perpetual unrest to make untold profits .

        Can you not see this?

        • WILD KATIPO

          Along with his son in law,… Jared,… who seems to have an unwarranted mandate to speak in Israel, before the Donald, even …


          Jared Kushner

          ‘ He married Ivanka Trump, daughter of businessman Donald Trump, in a Jewish ceremony on October 25, 2009. They had met in 2005 through mutual friends. Kushner and his wife (who converted to Judaism in 2009) are Modern Orthodox Jews, keep a kosher home, and observe the Jewish Shabbat ‘

          Jared Kushner – Wikipedia


          Rightly or wrongly there is the reason.

          Its familial , its religious , – and it WILL affect foreign policy . Whether we like it or not. Now,… tell me,… which President HASN’T had strong personal biases during their terms ?

          • Tricledrown

            Yet Trump accepts support from antisemitic fundamentalists.
            Trump is just throwing another dead cat to take the media’s eye off his corruption.
            John Key was good at dat.
            Stephen Joyce not so good.
            Whenever Trump is cornered he throws another dead cat

            • WILD KATIPO

              Again, – the businessman’s mentality. Not the politicians. That man is more interested in a renaissance of American predominance in global world trade than being the global policeman.

              Being the global policeman costs money.

              Lots of American taxpayers money.

              And we know how the Americans are about taxation.

              Hence why he campaigned on making Europe pull its weight in NATO,- and pay for its own protections against the ‘ Ruskies’ instead of expecting the USA to bail them out , and tbh , – why should the American taxpayer subsidize Europe militarily?

              Why ?

              So he makes friends with Putin and deflates the whole antagonistic scenario (which the George Soro’s mass media previously fed upon btw and made their billions on peddling such ‘ hate Trump ‘media … ) – and a few ‘world’ leaders’become crest fallen… along with a few far right wing military industrialist’s hawks profit making capability’s , …so what?

              Really ,… so what ???

              Point being?

              I would actually like to learn more about who the antisemitic fundamentalists are that he accepted support from. It would be interesting to contrast that with the Israeli thing about moving the U.S embassy to Jerusalem…

              • Tricledrown

                Wild Katipo where have you been the neo Fascists support Trump KKK.
                Steve Bannon read who he is garnering support from.
                Trump is a political animal running with the hares hunting with the foxes.
                It’s like you haven’t read anything on Trump in the last 20 years or in the last 3 even.

                • Didn’t he sack Bannon?

                  Didn’t he disassociate himself from the KKK ?

                  I think he did. And that was a while ago.

                  He also sacked a number of those that seemed to have supported continuance of war / tensions in foreign policy…

                  One thing that will always stick in my mind is the casually accepted Tuesday signing off of drone strikes that indiscriminately killed men , woman and children non combatants in the Middle East as Obama did…

                  That went on for five long years.

                  To date ?

                  Trump hasn’t done that.

                  He just made friends with Putin. And Kim Jong-un .

                  And thats a crime.

                  • joe90

                    To date ?

                    Trump hasn’t done that.

                    tRump ditched Obama era restrictions on airstrikes against Islamic radicals, and in his first year in office he’s managed to kill more civilians than Obama.

                    Our minimum estimate of civilians likely killed by Coalition since 2014 is now 5,117 – with 55% of deaths occuring under Trump's leadership pic.twitter.com/H8S5Ihwuzb— Airwars (@airwars) August 22, 2017

                    While the mainstream media focuses on anything but the current state of U.S. intervention in the Middle East, the Trump Administration is breaking records by accumulating a horrific number of civilian deaths.

                    President Trump has been in office for just 9 months, and he has already surpassed Obama’s murderous record with estimated numbers as high as 4,500 civilian deaths.

                    Trump made headlines in December 2015, when he declared that if elected, he would not only kill members of ISIS—he would also “take out their families.” He is following through on that promise, according to a report from Steven Feldstein, former U.S. Deputy Assistant Secretary of State.


                    The 161 air strikes in Somalia and Yemen together represent a threefold increase over US attacks in the same countries in 2016.

                    That elevated pace of drone operations continued in 2018. So far this year, the BIJ has counted at least 15 US air strikes in Somalia and 27 in Yemen. As many as 81 people died in the air raids; around 10 of them were probably innocent bystanders, according to the bureau.

                    In Afghanistan, the number of air strikes involving manned and unmanned warplanes roughly doubled between 2016 and 2017, and dropped slightly in the first five months of 2018, according to official US military statistics provided to Motherboard by CENTCOM. There were 615 US air attacks in 2016, 1,248 in 2017, and 353 between January and May 2018.

                    But the intensity of the strikes in Afghanistan increased out of proportion to the number of attacks. In that country, US aircraft dropped or fired 1,337 bombs and missiles in 2016, 4,361 in 2017, and 2,339 in the first five months of 2018.


                    • Oh yes ,… Motherboard.

                      Fun for all the family. This is why we hear claims of fake news from all manner of places. Yet you cannot accept Wikileaks founder and John Pilgers interview… why is that?… you would rather use another obscure site to justify your jaundiced views instead…

                      ‘Clinton & ISIS funded by same money’ – Assange interview … – YouTube
                      Video for julian assange john pilger arms to isis you tube▶ 2:47

                      And again… what was Trumps major crimes?

                      Making friends with Kim Jung – un and Putin.

                      Such a terrible thing to do.

                      World peace is in peril because Trump took away some lollies from those who profited off of death .


                    • Interesting also,… that those who would quote ‘ CENTROM ‘ would also be the first to denigrate the NZDF ‘s Keating ( and rightly so ) for Operation Burnham… however ,.. who’s side are you really on when the so-called statistics seem to back your argument ie :

                      When Trump has already spoken against those hawks who for purely financial reasons WANT war.,…

                      Yet here you are ,.. quoting those same American military sources as the Gospel truth because you hate Trump. Just like they do.And because their industrial masters make fat profits with their war machine.

                      Whose side are you really on ?.

                      Yeah. Just quoting facts to suit your purpose. And even then ,… covered with the bogus lies of those who gain. Who’s side are you on boy, whose side are you on?

                      Billy Bragg – Which Side Are You On? – YouTube
                      Video for billy bragg whose side are you on you tube▶ 2:35

                      I’m sure I could drag up a thousand sites to justify any manner of perverse stats and narratives.

                      As you have done.

                    • And one other thing ,..


                      ” In 1995 , … ‘Congress adopted the Jerusalem Embassy act , urging the Federal Government to relocate the American Embassy to Jerusalem , and to recognize that that city , and so importantly , is Israels capital ” .


                      So it is not a new thing at all.

                      And with the advances in archaeology in Israel , – and coupled with the enhancements and backing up of Biblical scholars , certainly seems as if Trump is moving in circles that are far from the political, far from the temporal , and more aligned with that which is historical , and perhaps even ‘ spiritual’.

                      This is why he is compared to a new ‘ Cyrus’.

                      Though I think it is more pragmatic than ‘ scriptural’.

                      I don’t like Jonathan Khan.

                      But here he is:

                      The Cyrus – Trump Connection – YouTube
                      Video for The Cyrus – Trump Connection▶ 13:21

                    • joe90

                      and perhaps even ‘ spiritual’.

                      So, you’re an end times loon, bless.

                    • And back to the original reasoning apart from the politically correct one, ie THIS :

                      The Temple | Bob Cornuke – YouTube
                      Video for the temple bob cornuke you tube▶ 30:50

                      You can bang on as much as you like with official sounding information but at the end of the day that’s no different than any other apologist for trying to justify their reasoning. Proves less than nothing. You will die, – just like that cattle beast steak you consumed at the barbecue, no less, no more.

                      You win less than zero.

                    • And you are ,… a nihilist?


                      Just enjoy that beef steak.

                      Then mock some 19th century native Americans for giving thanks because they didn’t have the benefit of cellophane wrapped meat.

                      Yeah , Good on ya, Trev.

  11. Anyhows, Keys gone and we have a new govt . I haven’t posted for awhile. And I’m feeling this way. Pretty contented .

    Jimi Hendrix – Ezy Ryder (Audio) – YouTube

  12. Philj 12

    I have two adult sons, Don and Vlad. They’re nice boys. One’s a member of a legal gang, I’m told, the other has done well. I love them both.

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