Glenn Greenwald on…

Written By: - Date published: 11:53 am, July 19th, 2018 - 113 comments
Categories: class war, International, journalism, Media, Propaganda, Russia, us politics - Tags:

Glenn Greenwald and Joe Cirinione were both on Democracy Now! a few days ago. Their debate was streets ahead of the usual fayre, and was fairly wide ranging. I fully recommend watching the entire debate or reading the entire transcript. Joe Cirinione more or less echoed the opinions or headlines we’re seeing in msm.

What follows are some salient and under-reported points made by Glenn Greenwald in response to Cirinione and by extension, the dominant narratives of  “our” media. There was much more in the way of thoughtful commentary and opinion than what I’m able to sensibly provide here. The transcript is in two parts. Part one is here. Part two is here. (Both links also provide access to  video of the interview).

On Trump meeting with Putin in Helsinki

I think it’s excellent. And I would just cite two historical examples. In 2007, during the Democratic presidential debate, Barack Obama was asked whether he would meet with the leaders of North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, Syria and Iran without preconditions. He said he would. Hillary Clinton said she wouldn’t, because it would be used as a propaganda tool for repressive dictators. And liberals celebrated Obama.

On Russian meddling in US Election

So, I mean, I think this kind of rhetoric is so unbelievably unhinged, the idea that the phishing links sent to John Podesta and the Democratic National Committee are the greatest threat to American democracy in decades. People are now talking about it as though it’s on par with 9/11 or Pearl Harbor, that the lights are blinking red, in terms of the threat level. This is lunacy, this kind of talk. I spent years reading through the most top-secret documents of the NSA, and I can tell you that not only do they send phishing links to Russian agencies of every type continuously on a daily basis, but do far more aggressive interference in the cybersecurity of every single country than Russia is accused of having done during the 2016 election.

 In 2012, he (Obama) mocked the idea, spread by Mitt Romney, that Russia was our greatest existential foe. Yes, that was before Crimea, but it was after Georgia. It was after they were accused of murdering dissidents and imprisoning journalists. He mocked that idea and said we have all kinds of reasons to try and get along with Russia. Even after 2016, after Crimea, after he was told that the Russians interfered in the U.S. election, he didn’t talk about it as 9/11 or treat it like 9/11. He expelled a few Russian diplomats and urged everybody to keep it in perspective, and said that Russia is the seventh- or eighth-largest economy in the world, behind even Italy, and not a grave threat to the United States.

On Putin ‘having something’ on Trump.

No, I mean, I’ll believe that when I see evidence for it. So let me just make two points. Number one is, if you look at President Obama versus President Trump, there’s no question that President Obama was more cooperative with and collaborative with Russia and the Russian agenda than President Trump. President Trump has sent lethal arms to Ukraine—a crucial issue for Putin—which President Obama refused to do. President Trump has bombed the Assad forces in Syria, a client state of Putin, something that Obama refused to do because he didn’t want to provoke Putin. Trump has expelled more Russian diplomats and sanctioned more Russian oligarchs than [Obama] has. Trump undid the Iran deal, which Russia favored, while Obama worked with Russia in order to do the Iran deal. So this idea that Trump is some kind of a puppet of Putin, that he controls him with blackmail, is the kind of stuff that you believe if you read too many Tom Clancy novels, but isn’t borne out by the facts.

On press freedom.

You know, a lot of times when people talk about Trump’s attacks on press freedom, they talk about his rhetoric, his mean tweets about Wolf Blitzer and Chuck Todd, and his criticisms of the media. I don’t think that those are meaningful attacks on press freedom. I think what are meaningful attacks on press freedom are investigations into the work that journalists do with sources, in the attempt to imprison sources for giving journalists information that belong in the public domain. We at The Intercept have had two of our alleged sources the subject of investigations by the Justice Department, including one of whom who is now in prison. And my colleague Jim Risen, who the Obama administration threatened with prison for many years, wrote an op-ed in The New York Times after Trump was elected, saying if Trump ends up being able to attack press freedom, it will be because—due to the infrastructure that Obama created, this obsession with investigating and prosecuting and imprisoning sources, like my source, Edward Snowden, under the espionage statutes. And, of course, the Obama Justice Department prosecuted more sources under the espionage statute—in fact, three times as many—than all previous administrations combined. That, to me, is a real threat to press freedom, not some insults on Twitter, that Donald Trump is now taking advantage of.

Mueller indictments

As far as the indictments from Mueller are concerned, it’s certainly the most specific accounting yet that we’ve gotten of what the U.S. government claims the Russian government did in 2016. But it’s extremely important to remember what every first-year law student will tell you, which is that an indictment is nothing more than the assertions of a prosecutor unaccompanied by evidence. The evidence won’t be presented until a trial or until Robert Mueller actually issues a report to Congress. And so, I would certainly hope that we are not at the point, which I think we seem to be at, where we are now back to believing that when the CIA makes statements and assertions and accusations, or when prosecutors make statements and assertions and accusations, unaccompanied by evidence that we can actually evaluate, that we’re simply going to believe those accusations on faith, especially when the accusations come from George W. Bush’s former FBI Director Robert Mueller, who repeatedly lied to Congress about Iraq and a whole variety of other issues.

On the Democratic Party and the conversations around their electoral defeat.

It wasn’t just Hillary Clinton in 2016 who lost this election. The entire Democratic Party has collapsed as a national political force over the last decade. They’ve lost control of the Senate and of the House and of multiple statehouses and governorships. They’re decimated as a national political force. And the reason is exactly what Joe said. They become the party of international globalization. They’re associated with Silicon Valley and Wall Street billionaires and corporate interests, and have almost no connection to the working class. And that is a much harder conversation to have about why the Democrats have lost elections than just blaming a foreign villain and saying it’s because Vladimir Putin ran some fake Facebook ads and did some phishing emails. And I think that until we put this in perspective, about what Russia did in 2016 and the reality that the U.S. does that sort of thing all the time to Russia and so many other countries, we’re going to just not have the conversation that we need to be having about what these international institutions, that are so sacred—NATO and free trade and international trade organizations—have done to people all over the world, and the reason they’re turning to demagogues and right-wing extremists because of what these institutions have done to them. That’s the conversation we need to be having, but we’re not having, because we’re evading it by blaming everything on Vladimir Putin.

On Trump verbally attacking the EU and NATO. 

Just like this week, when he said that the European Union was a foe, what he said was something that for a long time on the left was really kind of just uncontroversial orthodoxy, which is that of course the European Union is an economic competitor of the U.S., and a lot of what their trade practices are do harm the American worker. We put up barriers against Chinese products entering the U.S., and yet the EU buys them and then sells them into the U.S., indirectly helping China circumvent those barriers in a way that directly harms U.S. workers. This is something that people like Robert Reich and Sherrod Brown and Bernie Sanders have been talking about for a long time. So it does make it very difficult when the only person who’s raising these kinds of issues and talking about these things—we need to get along better with Russia and China, we need to reform these old, archaic, destructive institutions—is a megalomaniac, somebody who’s completely devoid of any positive human virtue, which is Donald Trump. So it puts you in the position of kind of trying to agree with him, while knowing that he’s really not going to be able to do anything about those in a positive way.

I don’t think I can add a damn thing, bar my wish that the general tone and calibre of debate we engage in, and that we’re subjected to, was more akin to this than what we generally have.

113 comments on “Glenn Greenwald on… ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. lprent 1
    19 July 2018 at 1:10 pm

    And I disagree…

    Somehow this ignored the whole of the military takeover of Crimea, not to mention the war that Russian “volunteers” (with a lot of military experience and zero interference from Moscow) have waged into the Ukraine.

    Sure there was a badly monitored and quite managed ‘referendum” after the fact in the Crimea and after Russian troops were in control. I don’t bloody believe the process was fair or the results even moderately valid. I think it was simply a play for plausible deniability, and it ignored international law. All it did was to convince me that the Russias hadn’t learnt much about politics in the last 70 years.

    I’m not even going to mention the disingenuous lying from Russia about how exactly their military equipment managed to shoot down a civilian airliner.

    There have been many simple acts of aggression by the Russian Federation in recent years.

    As a response all the states on Russia’s western border have been asking for NATO help, and slowly receiving it. It is a logical response for anyone who looks at what Russia has been doing for the last decade.

    Greenwald is minimizing the sheer scope of the Russian intrusions into American election systems and into the political debate. He in fact picks on just one, the DNC phishing. That ignores the intrusions into the electoral systems of several states and many other political computer systems and then the weaponizing of the information by Russia to attempt to influence the course of the election there.

    Now I know damn well you object to external political influence happening here or anywhere else through other means. For instance if it involves the frigging CIA. – you you seem to think that it is ok in this case ? FFS that is hypocritical

    Basically you and Greenwald are simple unthinking fools less concerned about where things are heading than you are in protecting your pre-existing prejudices. A conclusion I came to in Greenwald’s case after looking at him speak at the Town Hall. He was unconvincing.

    Your general opinion seems to be that because one side has ever done anything wrong however innocuous – it justifies military aggression with implausible deniability and intrusions into political processes in other countries.

    I don’t. I think that either when there is a case to be made about a state being an arsehole a with a reasonable probability, then states and individuals should take action based on it. That doesn’t matter who it is.

    I don’t think that you do think that way. I think you hypocritically just work off some fossilized programming from bygone eras. Rather than look at the available information and use judgement on it, you just apply a pre-existing bigotry.

    • Adrian Thornton 1.1
      19 July 2018 at 1:40 pm

      @Irent,
      “Now I know damn well you object to external political influence happening here or anywhere else through other means…etc etc FFS that is hypocritical”
      I think what you will find ( if you actually watched the whole debate) is that Greenwald said that the USA and Russia have a long history of interfering in each others internal processes, so this is nothing unusual.

      What is unusual is the hysteria being drummed up by “George W. Bush’s former FBI Director Robert Mueller, who repeatedly lied to Congress about Iraq” and is then spewed out by all MSM with not a trace of fair and balanced reporting, and is swallowed hook line and sinker by “simple unthinking fools” like you.

      • McFlock 1.1.1
        19 July 2018 at 1:58 pm

        Hysteria and guilty pleas.

      • lprent 1.1.2
        19 July 2018 at 2:20 pm

        … that Greenwald said that the USA and Russia have a long history of interfering in each others internal processes,

        I’m far more concerned by what is put on my server. Which in this case, according to you, appears to be carefully selected crap. But even so…. Lets just look at that statement.

        Look at it from my perspective.

        Offhand I think that the last time the US seized and held the territory of another state… Ummm probably after WW2 if you want to look at some of the UN protectorates.

        Last time Russia did it? Less than 5 years ago. Crimea.

        The last time that the US covertly and directly interfered in the political processes in Russia – pretty much unknown. I don’t count overt, transparent or espionage – just attempts to shift political processes covertly. The last one that I am reasonably confident about was way more than 50 years ago. Just a stupid and pointless CIA style operation documented and released by the US. I am sure that there were others..

        But generally historically these types of covert operations aimed at the political systems have been causes for war. The last time it was detected in the US it was the direct cause of the US entering the first world war.

        The last time the US overtly interfered in the Russian political system would probably be the sanctions against Russia after the invasion of Crimea. Which was done well within the bounds of international law.

        Trying to equate that with actively trying to covertly shift election results would have to be a completely false equivalence.

        So I suspect that what you are looking at from Greenwald will all be false equivalences – made especially for the credulous and foolish. Something that I know he routinely does.

        But I’ll have a look at it after work when I have time after work.

        • Tricledrown 1.1.2.1
          19 July 2018 at 2:49 pm

          Lprent well said. Manafort was advising the Russian backed takeover in the Ukraine getting paid $10’s of millions laundering that Money skirting the Sanctions even buying an apartment in Trump Tower along with all the other money laundering criminals Trump helped launder through fake holding companies.

        • Adrian Thornton 1.1.2.2
          19 July 2018 at 3:03 pm

          Look all Greenwald is saying is that it is better that the two counties with 90-95% of the worlds nuclear armaments ( you remember those weapons that could vaporize us all) talk than not talk, that sounds like the mature (although I hesitate to use that word and Trump in the same sentence) and sensible way forward..I think it is sometimes described as diplomacy.

          Who really benefits from continuing this ridiculous cold war hysteria? maybe that is the question you should ask yourself.

          And btw if Russia/China was anywhere the US boarder you can be very sure that the US would seize and hold whatever foreign country they saw fit.

          And to be clear I am not defending Russia’s acts in the Crimea.

          • lprent 1.1.2.2.1
            19 July 2018 at 6:29 pm

            Who really benefits from continuing this ridiculous cold war hysteria?

            It isn’t “cold war hysteria”. I act exactly the same way about all military and covert political incursions into other countries affairs. With some I have less of an issue. For instance if a country is being used as a launching pad for incursions into other nations or into trade routes used by other nations.

            Some I react to somewhat more strongly than others because they involve nuclear weapons.

            I think it is sometimes described as diplomacy.

            Incompetent diplomacy would be about the third most common reason for wars to happen. Especially the more stupid ones.

            It has become pretty clear now. Trump needs to avoid any kind of international diplomacy because it has become pretty clear that he is utterly incompetent at it. I’d suggest that the Senate needs to take it from his office.

            And btw if Russia/China was anywhere the US boarder you can be very sure that the US would seize and hold whatever foreign country they saw fit.

            FFS: Look at real history rather than fantasy history…

            The last time that the US went across the border to their neighbor Canada was 1812, and they kind of got munted.

            The last time that they went across the border to Mexico in force… Well that depends on your frame of reference. Either 1846 or border incursions of 1910-1919 during the Mexican revolution.

            The first was blatant imperialism of a type that has thankfully subsided.

            The latter was pretty much a containment operation as a result of the Mexican civil war spilling over the border and the various attacks and plots against US towns (for rebel supplies) and civilians inside Mexico. There was a pretty strong push into Mexico by US forces after Pancho Villa attacked Columbus in Arizona.

            The US isn’t exactly a paragon of good world citizenship. But using such easily refuted false equivalences just makes your arguments look a bit crazed.

            The track record of Russia is quite a lot more tarnished.

    • marty mars 1.2
      19 July 2018 at 1:44 pm

      + 1 lprent

    • Bill 1.3
      19 July 2018 at 2:02 pm

      You disagree that nothing much could be added to the things that were discussed or covered, because of stuff that wasn’t covered or discussed? What you want Lynn? A complete detailed breakdown of every political machination from the US or Russia from the past 20 years or so?

      Or are you pissed that they didn’t go indepth on Crimea, condemn the shooting down of an airliner and generally talk to your prejudice?

      It was a debate that more or less covered the topics highlighted in bold. Actually, it covered more than that, but I tried to bold whatever Greenwald was addressing in the text that I selected.

      As Greenwald pointed out in relation to Crimea – “Even after 2016, after Crimea, after he (Obama) was told that the Russians interfered in the U.S. election, he didn’t talk about it as 9/11 or treat it like 9/11. He expelled a few Russian diplomats and urged everybody to keep it in perspective…”

      So Greenwald and Obama were both, by your argument, “minimizing the sheer scope of the Russian intrusions into American election systems and into the political debate”.?

      I’m not going to bother with the mob of wee straw thingee jigs you’ve thrown up in an apparent effort to discredit either me or my political perspectives (under a post I provided very minimal input for), beyond noting that if that’s really where you think I come from, then you really haven’t the slightest clue about where I’m coming from.

      Suffice to say, I don’t view the world in absolutist terms, or by way of “black hat/white hat” nonsense

      Seems from the gist of your comment that you do though. So…maybe it’s you who needs to check your own prejudice and simplistic thinking instead of arm waving about other peoples’? (edit – and relegating posts because you “don’t like” the political perspectives they contain?) 😉

      • Ad 1.3.1
        19 July 2018 at 2:34 pm

        And for programmer types, this is what we have learned about Russian and US spycraft from the set of indictments handed down on Friday:

        https://theintercept.com/2018/07/18/mueller-indictment-russian-hackers/

        • One Two 1.3.1.1
          19 July 2018 at 5:53 pm

          Ad, ‘programmer types’ are not data security experts…they’re not penetration experts…and they’re not forensic experts…

          I’ve seen no evidence that anyone who comments on this site has the slightest capability to understand the tools or techniques used by serious hackers’…

          The comments here and in the indictment documents are amatuer hour…

          • lprent 1.3.1.1.1
            19 July 2018 at 6:57 pm

            I’ve seen no evidence that anyone who comments on this site has the slightest capability to understand the tools or techniques used by serious hackers’…

            I do. These days mostly from the making sure there are no intrusions on anything that I work on. And that is everything from military applications to this site.

            I’ve been programming since 1978 and as a profession since 1991. Offhand I can’t think of many systems that I have done since 1995 that haven’t been public net-facing either over ethernet or through RF.

            Most of my requirements are for secure systems. These days I mostly program in c++, python, java, c# for work (plus a few oddities like delphi, managed c++, and lua). At home it is mainly aws, php, html and javascript.

            I don’t do it professionally, but I have been running windows, linux for decades and still do today. That means knowing everything from how to distribute GPOs to how to make sure the Standard’s server is really hard to break into (without finding the honey traps first).

            Mostly I do linux embedded and server these days with just enough windows and OSX to keep my hand on their shifting APIs. These days I even code moderate amount for android (while still avoiding iOS).

            Most of the data security techniques currently in use grew up whilst I have been around in the field. It is kind of interesting looking at just how much the underlying techniques actually remain pretty much the same over decades. There are just more instance of variants of the same old techniques. But that really is the nature of computing…

            And I suspect that you’re under-estimating our audience.

            I know of at least two other readers here who are literate at exactly the level you are describing, and several others who would be if they could be bothered. But on a political blog why would you tout skills or for business here. The only reason I know of them is because I have either met them at work or they have contacted me remotely.

            Generally the people you find pushing their hacking skills in online forums are the wannabes

            • One Two 1.3.1.1.1.1
              19 July 2018 at 8:37 pm

              You were the obvious responder, having pushed your ‘skill set’ quite openly on this blog…

              So far as the ‘audience’ is concerned. I have not underestimated any commentator who has shown through comments that they may have capability in certain apects of ‘IT’…

              What you say is fundamentally correct that the underlying techniques remain broardly unchanged…

              But not at the very highest levels…where mainstream commercial industry doesn’t operate…

              Needless to say, your stated experience affords you understandings on some levels…but that’s about all..

              Only those involved at the apex of ‘security’ where there is no public or private…could describe, with credibility…what goes on in the shadows…and what the apex preditors are testing on eachother…and others…

              No indication of such a level has been read on this blog…

              But go right ahead…

              • Dennis Frank …
                19 July 2018 at 9:02 pm

                Well, I appreciate that he has detailed his expertise. He has my respect for that. Why don’t you reciprocate?

                See, thing is, readers will appraise the ratio of bluster to competence analogous to signal/noise, won’t they? I did a year of computing in ’69 (UofAk), learnt how to program in fortran & algol but don’t rate my grasp of hacker competence as much above zero nowadays of course. But there is a public interest dimension to your discussion, so you could always write to that as well as doing interpersonal replies.

                • One Two …
                  19 July 2018 at 10:12 pm

                  Hi Dennis…

                  I wasn’t looking to announce my backgound, nor will I be just because the site admin, once again chose to do a log dump…

                  The take away is this…

                  No matter the information or stories dropped which ‘readers appraise’…most with no idea of fundamentals of words on page…the simple truth is the number of individuals on this planet who ‘know’ if there was a hack not…and who are operating in the shadows at the apex of digital ‘warfare’….is miniscule…

                  The guardian published Ed Snowden ‘leaks’ were unlikely to be the tip of an iceberg…if they were at all part of the iceberg…

                  When it comes to high level espionage and passing comments trying to literally guess what is going on…is like a small child trying to perform surgery with a bucket and spade…

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    19 July 2018 at 10:16 pm

                    Fair enough. Speculation is indeed a waste of time, but to speculate is part of human nature. : )

                    • One Two …
                      19 July 2018 at 10:31 pm

                      Absolutely, speculation is all any of us have…

                      It’s when speculation becomes the basis for opinions boardering on absolutes…

                      When the only absolute is that ‘we’ don’t know what is going on…

                      IMO people should accept they have little to no control over the macro influences on their own daily lives…and focus energy on the aspects they can control and influence…

                      Achieve that in a positive sense and who knows what might aggregare out the other end of the energy flows…

                      ‘We’ may even turn things around…or at least slow the decline…

              • Tricledrown …
                19 July 2018 at 9:22 pm

                12 you are an idiot creating some mythical superiority you claim to have.
                Your barking up the wrong tree or just mad.
                Computers run on mathematical equations and as Lprent has said above nothing much has changed except a few variations.
                You think you know more please explain.

              • Paul Campbell …
                23 July 2018 at 11:33 pm

                What a bunch of bollocks, like lprent I’ve been programming since the early 70s, these days I design and build embedded communications tech, both hardware and software – I’ve built crypto based stuff for the past 20 years, implemented every video crypto on the planet, at the moment I have hundreds of thousands of boxes in people’s homes. I’ve dealt with some of the most paranoid vendors there are, including ex-mossad people (what a bunch of bozos! sent me other people’s code).

                You seriously think there are no competent security professionals in NZ? You must live in a different NZ than I do.

                Note: crypto here is in the real sense of the word, not a currency

          • Tricledrown 1.3.1.1.2
            19 July 2018 at 9:15 pm

            12 you have shown how naive you are by attacking LP.

            • One Two 1.3.1.1.2.1
              19 July 2018 at 10:23 pm

              What level of school have you completed, trickledrown…honestly…

              You’re comprehension is terrible…

              Much of the attacking and insulting on this site stems from the site admin…on commentators and authors…did you ignore that deliberately?

              You’ve called me an idiot..and incorrectly stated I’m issuing insults…

              There are levels, td…

              Yours is very low…

              • Tricledrown …
                19 July 2018 at 10:31 pm

                I have Arthur write us so f the little button thanks for asking Binary buffoon

      • lprent 1.3.2
        19 July 2018 at 2:36 pm

        Even after 2016, after Crimea, after he (Obama) was told that the Russians interfered in the U.S. election, he didn’t talk about it as 9/11 or treat it like 9/11. He expelled a few Russian diplomats and urged everybody to keep it in perspective…

        Ah no. That was simply a blatant misrepresentation (ie a outright lie) of what Obama did.

        He and the Europeans helped to organise punishing legal economic sanctions against Russia. The same sanctions that the Russian diplomats have been complaining about ever since.

        Curious that neither Greenwald or yourself didn’t mention those. That is kind of my point. Selective quoting or misrepresentation of basic facts pisses me off. I tend to react to it as someone lying – because that is what it is.

        Suffice to say, I don’t view the world in absolutist terms, or by way of “black hat/white hat” nonsense

        So far I haven’t seen ANY evidence of that. What I see is you asserting a points of view that only go one way when it comes to Russia – being very selective about how you divert blame from Russia like your victim blaming of Yuria yesterday.

        With that use of nerve agents there, I’m still waiting to see if there is enough to convict. There is certainly enough to point to something in Russia as being the primary suspect. But it is pretty clear from what you have been writing that you are sure that it wasn’t them – without any realist evidence.

        • Bill 1.3.2.1
          19 July 2018 at 10:07 pm

          He and the Europeans helped to organise punishing legal economic sanctions against Russia

          That would be the Hague Declaration you’re referring to, yes?

          Para 3 states “we have imposed a variety of sanctions against Russia and those individuals and entities responsible”

          And the NYT helpfully reported that “they stopped short, at least for now, of imposing sanctions against what a senior Obama administration official called vital sectors of the Russian economy: energy, banking and finance, engineering and the arms industry.”

          Hardly “punishing” then.

          And (plenty of other links to the same effect btw)

          President Obama has condemned Russia’s intervention in Ukraine’s Crimean Peninsula, while Secretary of State John Kerry has been meeting with European, Russian and Ukrainian leaders in search of a peaceful resolution to the crisis.

          I can’t find anything on diplomatic expulsions over Crimea. So perhaps Greenwald misspoke in a wide ranging live interview? How fucking terrible! Ah, no. He’s perfidious because he expresses a progressive – very soft progressive perspective.

          You understand my contribution to anything Greenwald says is…zero? Yes? I’m asking because, well, there’s this nonsense in your comment about me not mentioning stuff, even though the post clearly has no substantive input from me by way of expressed opinions.

          Revealing and depressing (as Siobhan notes) that what would have until very recently been seen as fairly mainstream progressive or leftist thought elicits nothing but personal invective on a labour blog. Oh, that and idiotic cheerleading for stuff and nonsense. No wonder “the Trumps” of the world are enjoying something of an ascendancy. 🙁

      • Tricledrown 1.3.3
        19 July 2018 at 5:03 pm

        Bill your shifting the blame to Obama after the fact.
        Corruption in US politics has become the norm.
        Greenwald came to NZ remember saying he was going to expose the Key govt.
        He came and duped everyone left the Internet party look silly lost them lots of support one has to wonder who’s side he’s on given Assange is another Putin puppet

    • Ad 1.4
      19 July 2018 at 2:32 pm

      The precise manner and means, as well as the named Russian agents, are detailed in the indictment:

      https://www.justice.gov/file/1080281/download

      Granted, everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty, but there’s a fair amount of detail to defend against here. Whether or not they are guilty, they sure ain’t innocent.

      • Tricledrown 1.4.1
        19 July 2018 at 2:55 pm

        Steve Bannon, Jared Kucshner, Manafort, Donald Trump.
        All deeply involved in this Russian hacking and blitzing voters in the US with fake news and the Brexit vote with Boris Johnston and Farage on the Take.

      • Ad 1.4.2
        19 July 2018 at 3:01 pm

        The Mueller indictments for the 12 named Russian agents give a pretty clear idea that what Mueller and team hold is far, far greater in knowledge across a massive network of US and foreign nationals than they have thus far revealed.

        Multiple guilty pleas, multiple further indictments, not a single leak. Rosenberg is going to be a saint if he can just fend off the attacks.

        The indictment also provides details of online conversations between the Russians, using the Guccifer 2.0 persona, and “a person who was in regular contact with senior members” of Trump’s presidential campaign. That person has been identified as Roger Stone, a controversial longtime Trump ally.

        In August 2016, according to the indictment, the Russians, using the Guccifer 2.0 front, wrote to Stone: “do u find anyt[h]ing interesting in the docs i posted?” Days later, Guccifer 2.0 wrote again to Stone, saying, “please tell me if i can help u anyhow … it would be a great pleasure to me.” In September, Guccifer 2.0 wrote again, this time asking, “what do u think of the info on the turnout model for the democrats entire presidential campaign.” Stone responded tersely: “[p]retty standard.”

        The indictment also delves into the role of WikiLeaks, identified only as “Organization 1,” which acted as an intermediary between Guccifer 2.0 and the American press.

        And there are of course more answers still to come, such as whether WikiLeaks knew that the hacked materials were coming from the Russians. But what it is clear is that WikiLeaks wanted materials damaging to Clinton’s campaign.

        “In order to expand their interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election,” the indictment says, the Russians “transferred many of the documents they stole from the [Democratic National Committee] and the chairman of the Clinton campaign to Organization 1.” The Russians, “posing as Guccifer 2.0, discussed the release of the stolen documents and the timing of those releases with Organization 1 to heighten their impact on the 2016 U.S. president election.”

        In June 2016, WikiLeaks sent a private message to Guccifer 2.0 asking the persona to send “any new material [stolen from the DNC] here for us to review and it will have a much higher impact than what you are doing.” In July, WikiLeaks sent another message saying, “if you have anything hillary related we want it in the next tweo [sic] days prefable [sic] because the DNC [Democratic National Convention] is approaching and she will solidify bernie supporters behind her after. … we think trump has only a 25% chance of winning against hillary … so conflict between bernie and hillary is interesting.”

        WikiLeaks released more than 20,000 emails and other documents stolen from the Democratic National Committee network three days before the start of the Democratic convention.

        What the indictment – and that’s the right word for it – does get to is minute-by-minute details about how the Russians engineered their hack, how they distributed the information to WikiLeaks, reporters, and others, and even how they paid for it. Indeed, one of the most interesting sections of the indictment alleges that the Russians used bitcoin to anonymously finance different aspects of their cyberattack.

        The Russians “principally used bitcoin when purchasing servers, registering domains, and otherwise making payments in furtherance of hacking activity,” the indictment states. “Many of these payments were processed by companies located in the United States that provided payment processing services to hosting companies, domain registrars, and other vendors.”

        But it really is spy-versus-spy in the counter-spike realm. It includes accounts that appear to have been drawn from real-time U.S. intelligence surveillance of Russian computers watching, searching, and infecting with malware computers belonging to Democratic operatives and staffers.

        For example, the indictment explains how the Russians intentionally deleted logs and computer files to hide their electronic footprints in the DNC system and states that “on occasion, the [Russians] facilitated bitcoin payments using the same computers that they used to conduct their hacking activity, including to create and send test spearphishing emails. Additionally, one of these dedicated accounts was used by the [Russians] in or around 2015 to renew the registration of a domain (linuxkrnl.net) encoded in certain X-Agent malware installed on the DNC network.”

        Now, of course, Greenwald misses the point that almost all those with indictments against their name have pleaded guilty if they’ve been within the reach of US justice. But then he would, because he cannot possibly see a reason for any state intelligence service to exist.

        Coming next is the Manafort trial, where we will expect to see yet another almighty spill of fresh information on exactly how the Russians sought to aid and support the Trump campaign, together with the vast series of side-deals to keep the whole machine oiled and rolling.

        Plenty of questions, but a lot more getting answered. And all of it weighing on the Russian influence upon Donald Trump, which is pretty clear to see now.

        • Tricledrown 1.4.2.1
          19 July 2018 at 5:07 pm

          Ad well said only Trump groupies would disagree.

        • Dennis Frank 1.4.2.2
          19 July 2018 at 5:47 pm

          You’ve made a good case that Russian spooks did intervene to try & get Trump. I thought they did already. So I think the point is really whether Trump requested or orchestrated that. I don’t believe evidence that he did will appear via personal testimony from either hackers or Trump underlings. More likely from the latter, of course, to escape prosecution.

          These politically-motivated smoke&mirrors prosecutions are designed to sway voters in the mid-terms, to fool them into thinking where there’s smoke there’s fire (or at least a smoking gun), to create the belief in the existence of evidence of crime when the prosecutor believes no actual evidence will be found.

          • Ad 1.4.2.2.1
            19 July 2018 at 6:11 pm

            We are already seeing multiple contacts in his campaign seeking direct foreign assistance.

            More to come.

      • Bill 1.4.3
        19 July 2018 at 10:19 pm

        Whether or not they are guilty, they sure ain’t innocent.

        The evidence won’t be presented until a trial or until Robert Mueller actually issues a report to Congress. And so, I would certainly hope that we are not at the point, which I think we seem to be at, where we are now back to believing that when the CIA makes statements and assertions and accusations, or when prosecutors make statements and assertions and accusations, unaccompanied by evidence that we can actually evaluate, that we’re simply going to believe those accusations on faith…

        You’ve arrived Ad, you’ve arrived.

    • Dennis Merwood 1.5
      19 July 2018 at 7:41 pm

      A perfect exhibition of “Trump Derangement Syndrome” here ….anybody that disagrees with the Trump bashers is an “unthinking fool”. I though this type of ad hominen attack was forbidden on this blog. Apparently not. I disagree with all your pre-existing prejudices Iprent. I’ll take Greenwald over an amateur blogger/computer programmer in a far away Isle any day.

  2. Booker 2
    19 July 2018 at 1:12 pm

    Thank you for this – will definitely listen to the whole interview. At last someone talking some sense!

  3. cleangreen 3
    19 July 2018 at 1:19 pm

    Bill;

    I agree entirely as the ‘left wing’ of which I am one has been captured by the George Soros emtermists as they have an agenda to take power back to control the whole world now so just see what George Soros is up to now.

    The left need to dis-associate ouirselves from the “dirty money of the likes of George soros.

    Glenn Greenwald is right to point to the left wing as corruted as we see now the right wing extremists have taken us over by corruption using dirty money.

    Right wing activists are now infiltraing Labour movements all over the world it seems and I wonder if it is being done with corrupt money from George Soros as he has been actively funding political actions for years and taking over even US voting companies we hear now.

    He is somehow even involved in the largest global electronic voting systems company centred in Spain now.

    https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/item/16724-soros-connected-vote-counting-firm-expands-in-u-s

    “A Spanish vote-tabulation firm with ties to billionaire globalist George Soros is purchasing software to give it greater power over the voting in U.S. elections.

    In a press release under a Barcelona and Tampa, Florida dateline, Scytl announced”

    Soros now has bought the ‘New York Times’ also and sends out his own liesthrough the New York Times where the NZ media picks up his lies and parrots when to us now through our own media.

    https://yournewswire.com/george-soros-buys-new-york-times/

    “After throwing more than $10.5 million into Hillary Clinton’s failed election bid in 2016, Soros has also made no bones about his desire to see President Donald Trump –who he recently called the “ultimate narcissist”– impeached and removed from office. Trump’s victory reportedly cost Soros almost a billion dollars on the market.

    Since Trump’s election, Soros has taken to sponsoring leftist candidates in district attorney races across the country, in a bid to reshape the American justice system in his own progressive image. After donating $50 million to the American Civil Liberties Union in 2014, he has spent over $9 million funding candidates in 14 cities. In San Diego alone, he spent $1.5 million propping up Democrat Geneviéve Jones-Wright’s unsuccessful campaign.

    “Soros is well known for his liberal views, however, and publicly supports –and funds– a variety of progressive and neoliberal causes, through NGOs like his Open Society Foundations.”

    • Tricledrown 3.1
      19 July 2018 at 5:24 pm

      Clean green Soros was open about his support for the Clinton campaign.
      Putin still denies.
      The New American a far right publication Bob Halderman Nixon man.
      Clean green your links are to far right propaganda sites.

      • Stuart Munro 3.1.1
        19 July 2018 at 11:55 pm

        Soros is an interesting choice of villain, he resiled from the strong form of market determinism in the wake of the Asian financial crisis. Were one looking for the core of financial manipulation and banker autocracy the Rothschilds would be much better suspects.

        Soros was instrumental however in organizing a rescue package for the Ukraine, without which it would no doubt have fallen under Russian control.

  4. Siobhan 4
    19 July 2018 at 2:19 pm

    Ah yes, mess with the MSM narrative and pay the price, its like the Cold War never ended…I’m waiting for someone to address the actual points raised by Greenwald (and Bill) rather than general personal attacks and “I think’s”.

    This isn’t a pissing contest boys.

    • Tricledrown 4.1
      19 July 2018 at 2:37 pm

      With out George Soros the left would collapse
      The Russian hackers breitbart, info Wars
      Jared Kucshner all the really crooked billionaires money laundering oligarchs would have a free reign.
      Theirs a lot of fake news directly targeting Soros because he funds democratic socialism.
      As opposed to the neo Fascists who are undermining Democracy by creating divisiness.
      Hobson’s choice far right soft peddlers pre paid exclusive brethren.

      • Siobhan 4.1.1
        19 July 2018 at 2:46 pm

        George Soros is not a representative of the Left.
        Making money from hedge fund’s is not done in the interests of the workers and the strugglers.
        It is, no matter where he spends that money, an abomination to the Left cause. And, in fact an anathema to any sort of decent society no matter its leanings.

        • Tricledrown 4.1.1.1
          19 July 2018 at 3:31 pm

          Siobhan Soros hates extremism of any kind including communism.
          Democratic Socialism requires a successful market economy to fund universal health care education etc.
          This picture Greenwald is painting is to make Greenwald some sort of Martyr.
          He is no Carl Bernstein.
          Wikileaks got played by the Trump/Bannon/Putin Russian Mafia.
          As a result have lost all credability.
          Ecuador is now a target of CIA interference.
          The US wants a right wing govt in Ecuador so they can extradite wiki man from the London embassy.

          • McFlock 4.1.1.1.1
            19 July 2018 at 3:48 pm

            And on the flipside, Ecuador have the wikiman to bargain with.

            New administration in Washington, diplomatic feelers go out, nice little summit/meeting at APEC or similar, Assange is out on his arse and US/Ecuador become more friendly.

          • cleangreen 4.1.1.1.2
            21 July 2018 at 4:17 pm

            Tricledrown

            If Soros is left wing, why is he high up in “the Bilderberg Grouip” who are known dark ops group operations and represents the bulk of the “Global Elite who rape the global resouces as we speak?

      • One Two 4.1.2
        19 July 2018 at 4:13 pm

        You believe Soros funds democratic socialism…

        Oh dear…No, he does nothing of the sort…

        Only a dearth of worldly experience could lead to such a comment…

        Even a modicum of entry level reading into the funding and operational vehicles of Soros globally, would taper such a belief…

        • Tricledrown 4.1.2.1
          19 July 2018 at 4:32 pm

          12 another uppercut for you if you believe all the BS of the info Wars breitbart Trump Bannon/Putin you would draw that conclusion.
          But look at what Soros funds.
          Black lives matter
          Me too
          Open free education in the Ukraine where fascism is rising.
          Soros’s life brought about his dislike for extremism of any kind.
          Trump /Putin Farage Netenyahu are all targeted by Soros even the National Party in NZ.

          • One Two 4.1.2.1.1
            19 July 2018 at 5:38 pm

            Perhaps you don’t realise what you’ve done with that response…

            What you have done is confirm my initial comment to you about having a dearth of worldy experience…it was clear to me through your writing…

            That you believe the way to understand this world is through citing the controlled ‘alt-right’ to use a label you can relate to…

            That you believe those who may ‘know’ differently to you have been spoon fed their information …again citing ‘alt-right’ media…

            Look at what Soros funds, indeed…do you have any idea at all…

            Were you going to provide some actual examples…using places and experiences you have had first hand?…

            Go ahead and provide a list to Soros funded groups around the world…choose one or two from each of the major regions…and we can then talk through the hot spots…and the pros/cons of the ‘benevolent’ social democracy supporting philanthropist…

            • Tricledrown 4.1.2.1.1.1
              19 July 2018 at 5:48 pm

              12 you can look up links yourself but your link have Bannon breitbart Kucshner Putin all over them.
              The people Soros is holding to account.
              He is the only mega billionaire to stick up for Social Democracy.
              That’s why he is being hammered by those he opposes.
              He is open and up front about his funding and who he funds

              Not like his denegrators.

              • One Two …
                19 July 2018 at 6:01 pm

                My links?.

                What are you talking about, trickledrown ?

                I made a simple request, which you ignored…you’re the one making claims for which you can’t or won’t even provide mainstream information about the man you’re endorsing and the vehicles used to fund global activity…

                Clealy the word discernment is not one you know, let alone put into practice…

                All the best with the journey…it’s all in front of you…

        • Tricledrown 4.1.2.2
          19 July 2018 at 6:13 pm

          12 given your political bent I’d expect your cynicism.
          The most recent interview with Soros.
          George Soros has said he gave £500,000 to another referendum campaign for Brexit considering the Russian interference (millions of pounds and the fake news via social media) in the last vote.
          How ever he also tempered that with the admission that the EU needs to clean up its ACT if it doesn’t want to be split up.
          A reasonable and moderate man!
          12 he uses his own money not Russian/US Mafia money.

            • Dennis Frank 4.1.2.2.1.1
              19 July 2018 at 9:25 pm

              Yeah, reminds me why I get irritated whenever a couple of my old friends do their `demonise Soros’ thing, apparently having forgotten all the times I’ve reprimanded them about that in bygone years. Alzheimers, perhaps, but they can still talk sense on other topics.

              I read his first book Alchemy of Finance quarter of a century back, and check out his others sometimes. He’s clever, well-intentioned, a genuine philanthropist, but too old-fashioned for me apart from that. A true liberal (to me liberal has meant brain-dead since ’71, so he’s not typical!). His view of Brexit is so one-sided I can only dismiss it as irrelevant. Blairite!

              Popper & Soros are locked into an antiquated world-view. Soros is a globalist during a period of history when globalism has become discredited as a geopolitical trend. Too many folks now know that it is merely a Bilderberger strategy and not the organic confluence of progress of civilisation that it seemed in the early nineties.

              • Tricledrown …
                19 July 2018 at 9:44 pm

                Dennis Frank you obviously haven’t read the history of trade.
                I have studied the history of economics and trade.
                The World has been going towards globalisation since the beginning of civilization and is the driving force behind civilization.
                Nothing is going to stop globalisation.
                There will be a few blips along the way.
                That may slow it down but countries that opt out become poorer.

                • Dennis Frank …
                  19 July 2018 at 10:05 pm

                  Yeah, I agree that as an overall trend it will prove unstoppable. Could be we’re in a blip as you say, but could also turn out to be a substantial regress into nationalism. I agree with you about the effect of trade (I’ve integrated an overview of the past three millennia as a result of reading history & prehistory since I was a kid).

          • One Two 4.1.2.2.2
            19 July 2018 at 6:36 pm

            Tell me what “my political bent” is…off you go…

            “a reasonable and moderate man…uses his own money

            Trickledrown…fair play…that’s your level it seems…

            All the very best…

            • Tricledrown 4.1.2.2.2.1
              19 July 2018 at 6:57 pm

              12 your flippancy has no bounds where are your links.
              Thanks joe90.

    • Ad 4.2
      19 July 2018 at 2:39 pm

      Any particular points you want to see covered?

      Or in fact, would you like to address them yourself?

      • Siobhan 4.2.1
        19 July 2018 at 3:30 pm

        For starters…are we now calling Obama a fool, or possibly even a traitor for being willing to meet with and negotiate with The Russians?.

        And, while not mentioned in the article, if Trump is so bad and controlled by The Russians why did the Democrats give him increased domestic spying powers?

        Personally ‘I think’ I am quite willing to ‘believe’ the Russians nefariously ‘interfered’ to some level in the Election, as did The DNC and The Republican Party and FaceBook etc etc. Thats what happens on ‘the interweb’. And Lets face it, when it comes to interfering in foreign elections, and results, the Americans are not amateurs, so why wouldn’t they do it at home.

        However I also consider this a distraction.
        Cheerleading us back into another Cold War with the Ruskies serves no purpose OTHER THAN to distract the people from the real issues..the issue should be about the rebalancing of People and Power, and Wealth and Power distribution in Western Democracies.

        The greatest threat to Democracy in America is the main political parties. Both parties have a vested interest in keeping the public distracted by this carry on.

        And bizarley this issue of ‘Trump and The Russians’ manages to derail all political discourse even in NZ. Reading blogs here you would think nothing else is happening of importance.
        It really is the (supposed) biggest thing since 9/11. it will be interesting to see what new laws and powers will be introduced, and we will be subjected to, in the name of defending us from this ‘threat’.

        • lprent 4.2.1.1
          19 July 2018 at 4:08 pm

          Perhaps you have forgotten how the Cold War started? Try looking it up some time rather than whining about it. The reasons for it happening haven’t gone away. It just hasn’t happened for a while.

          The basic cause was the way that the USSR attempted and succeeded in the disruption of political systems through Eastern Europe and elsewhere during and after the second world war. In some cases there were military based takeovers with local puppets. In others there was direct covert disruption of the political systems to create local puppet governments.

          The response from virtually all political entities at the end of the war at the time was to try to form a system to prevent or at least limit military takeovers of neighboring states (the UN), and to provide a mutual defense system against it happening again with the formation of formal military alliances like NATO.

          Sure, the US has been known for invading or fiddling with other countries as well. The second war in Iraq was a classic example of the same stupidity. But it is a disruptive and dangerous way to cause unexpected and unforeseen problems in the international community – as the US found out again.

          The problem is currently not the US unless their idiotic partisan political system manages to spill out into the world in a similar fashion. Of which Trump appears to be the leading example of that trend.

          However Russia is currently doing the same kinds of idiotic things that the George W Bush regime did post 9/11 with Iraq and their over the top terrorism responses.

          While Russia’s ones are also being largely done for a domestic audience. But instead of involving lightly populated regions with limited weaponry, they involve some of the most dangerous regions in the world.

          Historically covertly interfering in the internal politics of a large well armed nation has long been the second most common reason for the widespread war. Think of what happened with Austro-Hungry in 1914

          The first cause is of course outright invasion of neighbors or the annexation of parts of their territory. Poland in 1939 for instance. Or the Ukraine right next to the heavy armaments up to nuclear weaponry of the NATO nations

          For anyone with any sense of history, what Russia is currently engaged in is far more dangerous than a bunch of Saudi nutbars doing an act of terrorism. It is hardly an equitable comparison by you. Looks more like a simple-mind diversion instead.

          • In Vino 4.2.1.1.1
            19 July 2018 at 5:34 pm

            Since you mention a sense of history lprent, are you sure that the Crimea is irredeemably Ukrainian at heart? From what I remember of history, the Crimea under Lenin and Stalin was run by Russia, not the Ukraine. Stalin’s nasty habit of brutally transplanting entire nationalities meant that the Tartars were evicted from Crimea, and replaced with Russians, who became the majority. Stalin’s successor (Khrushchev) was himself a Ukrainian, and for some reason during his reign (1950s) he switched the admin of Crimea from Russia to the Ukraine. It is certain that at the time Khrushchev never entertained the thought that the Ukraine and Russia would later become opponents: he believed that the USSR would endure long enough to bury the decadent Western Capitalist system.
            Historically, I see the Ukraine’s claim to Crimea as tenuous, and I suspect that the majority of Crimeans voting to go with Russia in a referendum is no more shonky than a few recent USA elections have been.
            Tibet is another case in point which has made me very wary about propaganda about who is ‘expanding’ and ‘annexing’ what territories.
            (During WW2 the US Department of Information stated that Tibet was the 5th province of the great nation of China. But when Mao and the Communists took over China, Tibet miraculously became an autonomous nation, later to be most cruelly invaded by the foreign Chinese. Irony much?)

            • lprent 4.2.1.1.1.1
              19 July 2018 at 7:09 pm

              Since you mention a sense of history lprent, are you sure that the Crimea is irredeemably Ukrainian at heart?

              Hah. I never said that. (Please don’t put words into my mouth)

              Frankly it isn’t hard to make a case that as states neither Russia nor Ukraine have any claim or real history with Crimea. Neither have much of a history there, and the Russian history with it borders on being that of savagery.

              But what I was pointing out was that the Crimea was annexed to Russia by the means of a infiltration military operation by Russian federation troops, followed by a illegally created puppet regime, and the completely bogus ‘referendum’ that made no more than a token pretense at consulting the residents of the Crimea.

              In other words it was quite clearly an annexation operation that was illegal under all international law. It was appropriately dealt with without the international community or individual nations going to war over it (which was what Obama was pointing out) with the ongoing economic sanctions.

              International law is also quite clear on “shonky” internal politics. It tends to provide exceptions for genocide, ethnic cleansing, exporting terror tactics outside borders, piracy, and things that affect other nations. But generally it regards self-determination as being that it is up to the residents of a nation how they run the place.

              • In Vino …
                19 July 2018 at 10:53 pm

                Agree, Lprent. But your last sentence – it is up to the residents of a nation ..etc: Crimea has been left with residents who have now been there for several generations, and it is not surprising that the majority of them voted for Russia rather than Ukraine. Not likely to be shonky.
                You did not say that Crimea is Ukranian at heart, but you implied it when you cast aspersion upon the referendum.

        • Tricledrown 4.2.1.2
          19 July 2018 at 4:20 pm

          Siobhan your out of touch with reality
          Empires want to maintain borders and power Russia is pushing back by expanding its influence after 25years of Western influence on former Soviet territories.
          Putin is using every means at his disposal.
          When oil prices fell the Russian economy went backwards.
          Putin stimulated the economy by rebuilding his armies Navy and Airforce
          Modernising Russia’s military stealing Western technology just as the USSR did in the cold War.
          The other initiative Putin did was hugely increase Arms exports at the same time got involved in foreign conflicts again for the first time since the cold War.
          All making money for Putin and his Russian Mafia henchman kick backs to Trump Inc.
          Syria now since Obama left office has become a diviy up on arms sales and influence between Trump and Putin.

          • In Vino 4.2.1.2.1
            19 July 2018 at 5:53 pm

            Trickledrown – why do you expect Russia to react any differently to the USA or any other power that may be afflicted by what you call ‘influence’. The West has dishonoured the agreement made with Russia at the time of the dissolution of the USSR. That is us, Trickledrown – the people you seem to see as morally superior.
            I think I prefer Siobhan’s perspective to yours.

    • lprent 4.3
      19 July 2018 at 3:36 pm

      A. I don’t have time now (or usually ever), I am at work writing code.

      B. I can’t see any points actually worth arguing about in the above selective representations. In EVERY bit of it it carefully misses out actions that were actually taken. Instead there is some selective quoting which attempts to frame the debate about a small number of points that are meaningless . Yeah I could attempt to educate Bill – but as you can see I think it is pretty pointless and I really don’t have time.

      C. Basically what I see in the post is an exercise in very simple crude and rather stupid propaganda using well-known techniques of selective quoting and selection of facts, allied with a framing of memes to minimize issues. In short it is PR bullshit of the type that I see everyday in statements from various PR companies. Consequently I treat it as simply not being worth enaging with.

      D. What I would like to discuss is why we have a PR release as a post.

      BTW: If you’d like to actually deal with the few points I have already raised, then I’ll be happy to see what you have to say.

      For starter try equating the selectively quoted statements in the post about Obama’s response to Crimea with the widespread and continuing economic sanctions against Russia that were imposed as a direct result of Obama responding to the invasion and annexation of Crimea.

      I’d say that pretty clearly shows the selective quoting in the post was an outright lie of omission – what do you think?

      • Adrian Thornton 4.3.1
        19 July 2018 at 4:06 pm

        @ Iprent,
        “Curious that neither Greenwald or yourself didn’t mention those. That is kind of my point. Selective quoting or misrepresentation of basic facts pisses me off. I tend to react to it as someone lying – because that is what it is.”

        Strange that you seem so uptight about liars, here is a quote from the head of the
        Special Counsel investigation that we are all meant to believe without any debate or questioning…

        Robert S. Mueller,
        Director, Federal Bureau of Investigation Feb. 11, 2003

        “As we previously briefed this Committee, Iraq’s WMD program poses a clear threat to our national security, a threat that will certainly increase in the event of future military action against Iraq. Baghdad has the capability and, we presume, the will to use biological, chemical, or radiological weapons against US domestic targets in the event of a US invasion”

        The direct result of these lies is the deaths of untold humans, untold human misery that continues to this day…

        Yes you are right to get uptight about propaganda and lairs…I know I do.

        • Dennis Frank 4.3.1.1
          19 July 2018 at 4:51 pm

          Mueller’s track record of evidence-based decisions is what got him the job of proving Trump got Putin to take out Hilary. Senators & Congress reps in the USA believe this, apparently. Thanks for reminding us…

        • lprent 4.3.1.2
          19 July 2018 at 7:29 pm

          The direct result of these lies is the deaths of untold humans, untold human misery that continues to this day…

          And if you ever look at my commentary around the net about the Iraq war both before it happened and afterwards, I was more than vehement that the “intelligence” that was used to justify it was complete crap and clearly wrong.

          The problem was that Saddam Hussein and the Baath were actively trying to bluff, which when it was allied to the external Iraqi opposition bullshitting caused everyone (who wanted to) to doubt the accurate information that UN disarmament bodies had been providing.

          These days there is a much clearer knowledge of the actual effects of economic sanctions that there was at the end of the 1990s.

          Whereas Afghanistan was just as clearly as a matter for the international community to deal with because of their active export of terrorism to surrounding nations.

          Which is why

          But as I have said before, you are dealing in stupid false equivalences. The material the Mueller is dealing in now will be tested in a court with a lot of defense going on.

          The situation in 2003 could have done with having a forum with the same level of scrutiny. It may have still come to the ‘wrong’ decision (although the UN general assembly did not). But it’d have been a hell of a lot less likely than having an elected monarch making a dumb decision because he thought that the evidence was wrong in the wake of terrorist attack.

          And FFS: how about taking actual notice of what I write rather than trying to shove words from your own head into my mouth.

      • Bill 4.3.2
        20 July 2018 at 12:16 am

        For starter try equating the selectively quoted statements in the post about Obama’s response to Crimea with the widespread and continuing economic sanctions against Russia that were imposed as a direct result of Obama responding to the invasion and annexation of Crimea.

        I’d say that pretty clearly shows the selective quoting in the post was an outright lie of omission – what do you think?

        You knock yourself out finding any reference to Crimea in the interview (from either Greenwald or even Cirinione for that matter) that isn’t included in the post Lynn.

        You want a post that’s an up front, selective summary of things said in a debate, to include shit you want to hear (that was never said), and that you think is ‘correct’, just shoehorned in?

        As for this bullshit you’re spouting about (variously) “punishing” and “widespread” sanctions that Obama imposed on Russia post Crimea – that’s been addressed above (links provided)

        Yeah I could attempt to educate Bill – but as you can see I think it is pretty pointless and I really don’t have time,

        There are definitely some things you could ‘educate’ me on, “Big Man”. But politics isn’t one of them…way out of your depth it seems 😉

    • Morrissey 4.4
      19 July 2018 at 4:47 pm

      Yes it is, Siobhan—well it is from one side of this debate. That’s all the demonizers of Russia have in their arsenal.

      It was nicely summed up by one “Otter” in the comments section in The Intercept….

      Good debate. Glenn really debunked some of the narratives that so many just swallow without any critical examination. I was disappointed that Joe repeated some of these. e.g. ” – Putin interfered with the U.S. election to help elect Donald Trump.” Even the recent indictments of G.R.U. agents specifically disclaims any notion that the (alleged) Russian attempts had any material outcome in the election.

      This is an essential point, because much of the current anti-Russian hysteria is based on the notion that “Russia has hacked / is threatening our democracy”. Of course, that meme is inherently disingenuous, in ignoring that the greatest damage to democracy (and threats to its vestiges) has come from within the U.S. , via the control of elections and policy by corporate cash; and secondly, from the lobbies of AIPAC, UAE and Saudi Arabia (as Glenn says).

      The understandable disgust / angst with Trump is producing a flood of very emotional (again, understandable) responses; including the turning of many self-proclaimed “liberals” into cheerleaders for aggressive confrontation of Russia and Putin. As Greenwald noted, many Democrats are now out-flanking the Trump Administration on the right…becoming even more hawkish than before (and that’s saying something). And sadly, they are being cheered on by a segment of the liberals who ignore history and now believe everything our intelligence services put out for mass consumption.

      This can only increase pressures for: 1) increased military spending in the U.S. and NATO, 2) a renewed arms race, and an increase, not decrease, of nuclear weapons in the world.; 3) more support within Russia for Putin, as he represents strength in the face of an increasingly hostile (to Russia) world; 4) Further depletion of national treasury and increase in national debt, threatening both national autonomy and the economic security of U.S. citizens. It is disappointing that Joe Cirincione is playing to this, given his otherwise wise past work with Ploughshares.

      • Adrian Thornton 4.4.1
        19 July 2018 at 5:07 pm

        @Morrissey +1

      • Ad 4.4.2
        19 July 2018 at 5:43 pm

        Who here is “cheerleading for aggressive confrontation of Russia and Putin”?

        All I am expecting is that a US President holds a serious meeting with the leader of Russia and gets something substantial out of it. Because that is what actual political work achieves in such meetings since World War 2.

        So far, as with every other international meeting Trump has held, he has delivered nothing.

        It’s truly marvellous the way that increased expenditure on the Pentagon is the fault of the Democrats when it is the Republicans that propose and vote on the budget, hold every single layer of elected Federal government, all branches of Cabinet government, and have fully tilted the Supreme Court and the Appeals courts in their favour as well. So no, increased military spending is not the fault of “the left”.

        The person who is being blamed for the failure of the meeting with Putin is Donald Trump. Because he is not doing his job.

      • lprent 4.4.3
        19 July 2018 at 7:43 pm

        It simply doesn’t matter if the external interference was effective or not.

        What was discussed in the Zimmerman telegram was never viable. However it was sufficient to push a reluctant country into a war.

        The reason why was because it was covert and it was waging an undeclared war. History is replete with such examples of such tactics leading to wide scale wars.

        Countries are entitled to fuck up their own country politically or otherwise. That is why Russia has a average death age for males that is in the early 60s while that of women is 75 or higher (we probably won’t know until the next census).

        Any rational country would have curbed the alcoholism that causes that. Just as the US would have done something rational about the causes of their appalling turnout rates. Or the way that their constitution has a built in bias due to some slavery compromises made back in the 18th and 19th centuries.

        International law is pretty clear on this. It is also clear that a state deliberately going in to another country and trying to subvert the political process covertly is a grounds for war. Between the US and Russia that is a disaster scenario and one that is feckless, reckless, and as stupid as you apparently are.,

        • Morrissey 4.4.3.1
          19 July 2018 at 7:56 pm

          International law is pretty clear on this. It is also clear that a state deliberately going in to another country and trying to subvert the political process covertly is a grounds for war.

          So, applying your logic, about half the world has the right to go to war against the United States. You know, and everyone else here knows, that Russia’s meddling in the U.S. election farce was as nothing compared to the United States’ regular and repeated violent overthrowing of democratic governments, and its willful destruction of democracy all over the world, from—-just to name a few—Indonesia to Vietnam to the Congo to South Africa to Chile to Honduras to Greece to Egypt to the Palestinian Territories.

          Between the US and Russia that is a disaster scenario and one that is feckless, reckless, and as stupid as you apparently are.,

          Do you really think I get intimidated by someone calling me names like that?

          • Ad 4.4.3.1.1
            19 July 2018 at 8:06 pm

            Here’s the analysis of all Russian electoral interventions between 1991 and 2017.

            https://dataverse.scholarsportal.info/dataset.xhtml?persistentId=doi:10.5683/SP/BYRQQS

            The first wave to 2014 was in post-Soviet states.
            Since then they’ve branched out.

            You can go through the list yourself.

            You could also check whether US interference in global elections has increased or decreased since the collapse of the Soviet Union i.e something a little more recent than Manufacturing Consent.

            • Morrissey 4.4.3.1.1.1
              19 July 2018 at 8:12 pm

              Oh, so you’re having a go at Chomsky now, are you? You’re a really clever guy, quite clearly.

              You think my analysis starts and finishes with Chomsky, do you?

              • Ad …
                19 July 2018 at 8:33 pm

                It generally does. And you know it.

                But then, you are one of the laziest writers on this site.

                Otherwise you would have gone through the multiple instances of post Cold War Russian interference in elections from the cited reference and pulled a few of them apart.

                Or actually addressed points instead of setting up another weak straw person argument. But you don’t have that capacity.

                You have no ability to change your mind.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 4.4.3.1.1.2
              20 July 2018 at 12:04 am

              In a follow-up analysis of their list of Russian electoral interventions between 1991 and 2017, the same authors (Way and Casey) conclude that Russian meddling has made little difference. So, Russia gets an ‘A’ for effort, while the US gets an ‘A’ for making a ‘difference’.

              “We identified two waves of Russian meddling since the early 1990s. The first wave lasted until 2014 and targeted only post-Soviet countries. Since then, a second wave has expanded dramatically into established Western democracies.

              However, an examination of both of these waves shows that Russia’s efforts have made little difference.”

              https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2018/01/05/russia-has-been-meddling-in-foreign-elections-for-decades-has-it-made-a-difference/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.08aba013b31a

        • Dennis Frank 4.4.3.2
          19 July 2018 at 9:56 pm

          “The Zimmerman telegram” (Barbara Tuchman, 1958) is perhaps the best history book I’ve ever read (I’ve got hundreds, read even more from the library too). Like a thriller, her account of that nexus of code-breaking, geopolitics & narcissism of political leaders. Also it’s an example of the relevance of compexity theory: the sudden phase shift of mass opinion in a huge body-politic balanced between pro- and anti-German feeling, triggered by the explosive headlines it caused.

      • Dennis Merwood 4.4.4
        19 July 2018 at 8:04 pm

        You and Siobhan (and Greenwald) have it right Morrisey. The most vocal poster on Bills post, and the one attacking other posters with childish name calling, is way wrong – on almost everything he/she posts. These comments perfectly illustrate that these proclaimed “liberal” cheerleaders, who can’t except that their side lost the election by running a terrible candidate, ARE THE PROBLEM. Not Trump.

        • Morrissey 4.4.4.1
          19 July 2018 at 8:10 pm

          I don’t say Trump is not a problem, Dennis. He’s without question the worst, most offensive, most obnoxious politician in the world. What I and many other people are so disappointed about—-actually we are very angry about it—-is that the so-called “leaders” of the Democratic Party, and their media megaphones like CNN and the New York Times have spent nearly all their time chasing this Russian chimera, and all but ignoring the very real crimes and outrages that Trump and his grotesque cronies are carrying out—from trashing the education system, to removing all environmental protection standards, and abusing Hispanics even more ferociously than Obama’s regime did.

          • Ad 4.4.4.1.1
            19 July 2018 at 8:37 pm

            Is there any particular news source that ignores them that you have in mind?

            Did you miss the coverage of the teachers strikes, or #MeToo, or Black Lives Matter, or oil pipelines, or mass shootings, or the reversals of Obamacare, from every single damn news station and newspaper and site?

            In fact the main news stations that suppress these issues are actually the strongest supporters of President Trump. Namely, the Sinclair News outlets and the Fox News outlets.

            So actually the coverage is clear and resolute, and actually the Democrats re often winning elections on precisely these issues, since they poll so well.

            So far, no one has tried to win elections agent Republicans soley on the basis of the Russian attacks against the 2016 elections. Who knows, someone will be up for it once all the trials and mailings and convictions are done.

            You need the actual demonstrated ability to walk and chew gum at the same time.

          • Dennis Merwood 4.4.4.1.2
            19 July 2018 at 10:55 pm

            I agree..not to mention the liberally biased media is ignoring the real crimes of the crooked Democratic Party machine, and the lefts complete failure to deliver us Americans Universal Healthcare, a reduction in militarism, a living wage, fair trade, and a fair shake for the working man. Hillary’s party sadly became more right than the Party represented by Ronald Reagan. Obama, who my family voted for twice, was a total flop. He never achieved one thing he promised us. He was Bush 2.0. With Hillary and the DNC screwing Bernie Sanders, and Obama’s failures, many of us had no choice but to write off the Democrats and go with Trump with the maybe naive hope that he would deliver on his anti war campaign promises.

            • cleangreen 4.4.4.1.2.1
              21 July 2018 at 4:39 pm

              Thanks Dennis;

              Off course you can add that it was Obama/Hilary who were visablly supported by the global corporations too.

              Not really what we would have expected from a left wing party.

              Democratic party was already under the influence of the Global elitists.

  5. Ad 5
    19 July 2018 at 3:07 pm

    “On Trump meeting with Putin in Helskinki”

    Trump trashed the solid results of many Republican Presidents in detente with the Russians over decades.

    If Greenwald had any sense of history he would have confirmed his knowledge of the broad spectrum peace agreement hammered out in 1975, yes in Helskinki, by Gerald Ford, Russian leaders, and multiple other countries on a very strong set of human rights agreements.

    This meeting with Trump and Putin delivered fuck all, as expected. Which is the stupidity you get from Greenwald who hopes so much that Trump is substantive and Putin is trustworthy.

    Actual diplomatic results take months and often years to pre-negotiate before a successful summit is formed.

    Trump has utterly no idea, and since this interview was taken before the actual meeting, clearly neither does Greenwald on the matter.

  6. Brutus Iscariot 6
    19 July 2018 at 4:29 pm

    There were only 3 non-neocon candidates in the entire Republican and Democratic fields for the 2016 primaries. Those being Rand Paul, Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump. Admittedly, some of the others were perhaps of indeterminate ideology (Carson), but the field was quickly reduced.

    All those had a chance to publicly clarify their foreign relations outlooks in debates etc. It was quite clear by that point that the aforementioned 3 were cut from a slightly different cloth to the rest of the field (and their predecessors). Clinton on the other hand undoubtedly belonged on the stage with the most hawkish Republicans like Rubio, Graham and McCain (anyone remember her gleeful “we came, we saw, he died” quote on Colonel Gaddafi?).

    If you’re Russia, it would be natural to have a preference to work with someone who could aspire to a non-hostile relationship with you. Or at least a relationship that was transactional, not bathed in the glow of American moral superiority and exceptionalism. It’s in this light that you should view the Trump/Putin relationship, not something conspiratorial.

    The question is would Russia have had a dog in the fight, had it been Sanders v Trump ? I’d suggest not.

  7. Tricledrown 7
    19 July 2018 at 4:48 pm

    Brutus Idiot anyone defending Trump Putin love fest is bonkers.
    Why not slag Mueller the republican prosecutor.
    Manafort’direct funding from Putins right hand man.
    NRA infiltration.
    The longer this treasonous betrayal goes on the more worms come out of the wood work any one defending it is not being honest.
    Nixon I am not a crook.
    Keep going back to Clinton to excuse Trump Putin Colusion is shifting the blame and rather lame.
    The Arab spring was thought to be a good idea at the time but has proven again the West should keep out of other countries business since the Vietnam War the US has only successfully invaded the island of Granada.

  8. WILD KATIPO 8
    19 July 2018 at 5:05 pm

    Meh.

    Didn’t Trump say he thought Putin was OK during the election campaigns, didn’t he say he was going to have a look at the deep state and clip their wings somewhat ? ( JFK stated something even more decisive when he said he was ” going to smash the CIA into a thousand pieces ” , – pretty radical fighting talk during the McCarthy era as well ).

    OK . So he releases statements said at meetings with the deep state operatives, – at once praising them ( rank and file ) but conducting a purge of the ones in collusion with military hardware production who benefit from a sustained and continual state of active or cold war…

    Trumps a businessman . Hes a nationalist. And he has a businessman’s cunning.

    You really think hes going to conduct himself like a ‘ politician’ ? Hes not like the globalist George Soros. Hes not motivated by the notion of a centralized world government for a start. And this is why he seems to be contradictory at times.

    Hes angling. A slippery fish. He couldn’t give a shit about a globalist one world govt because he simply wants to ‘ make America great again’. And he also couldn’t give a shit about his detractors. He will offend the English with his parading like a peacock with the Queen, he will tell Theresa May shes doing it all wrong , and he will happily advise Merkel that’s shes barking up the wrong tree.

    He couldn’t give a shit.

    Have nuclear bombs rained down on America from North Korea?

    Has world war three erupted from bombing Assads lot , – and by association… opposing the Russians?

    About the only bunch he has had to negotiate a minefield is , is with the Chinese, – and even then , – not regarding the Southern seas off China but about trade. Face it … all those who we all deemed ‘enemy’s’ have been pacified by the Donald. Much to the Soros camp’s consternation’s.

    What is far more interesting , however,… is the Donald’s moving of the U.S embassy to Jerusalem , – and by symbolic gesture … announcing that contested city as Israels unofficial capital.

    Once again ,… a businessman’s mind at work. Not a politicians.

    Hes looking at trade ,.. ultimately. Not peripheral and temporal titivation’s about who did what in the elections.

    But I think he may also have gotten wind of this :

    Urgent 2017 Rebuilding The Third Temple is beginning – YouTube
    Video for documentary rebuilding the third temple you tube▶ 44:15

    In which case , ( and note the low key approach by Israeli archaeologists who know full well the ramifications of their discovery’s…) … much of all the bloodshed and antagonisms and divisiveness may come to a resounding end … and that will spell the death knell to the lucrative global arms industry’s concerning the Middle East regards Israel…

    • Tricledrown 8.1
      19 July 2018 at 7:52 pm

      Not even wild Katipo the idea might be good the facts maybe correct but when has that ever stopped Dogmatic ideologies from going to War.
      The life of Brian.
      Where you have poverty you will have conflict someone will invent a new religion that’s at odd’s with others.
      History tells us that

      • WILD KATIPO 8.1.1
        19 July 2018 at 9:18 pm

        Interestingly ,… last night I actually watched Monty Pythons ‘Life of Brian’ ,.. it was a hoot…

        Almost seems a case of synchronicity in you saying that…creepy….

        The Police – Synchronicity II – YouTube
        Video for synchronicity the police you tube▶ 4:45

  9. Tricledrown 9
    19 July 2018 at 5:16 pm

    Look where jfk ended up.
    Biblical references yeah right.

    • WILD KATIPO 9.1
      19 July 2018 at 5:27 pm

      Apply yourself and get over preconceptions.

      Just watch the video and take in what learned scholars, and archaeologists are saying.

      That’s what good science instructs us to do.

      And the reasons to sit up and take notice is because if either you , I or anybody else has other issues or prejudices , – this WILL affect global politics whether we like it or not.

    • Tricledrown 9.2
      19 July 2018 at 5:34 pm

      Wild Katipo Google Donald Trumps links to Mafia financing his business
      Russia Mafia financing.
      Kucshner Trumps son in laws links to the Russian Mafia.
      Then Donald Junior.
      Then Mike Pence’s rise from nowhere Russians financed his campaign.
      Manafort buys into Trump Tower with laundered Russian Mafia money.
      God you are a gullible person.
      Using a fairy conspiracy story to qualify yourself.

  10. WILD KATIPO 10
    19 July 2018 at 5:46 pm

    Yeah he may or may not have done all those things…

    But that’s not what I am saying, … and even then , sources are dubious or at least even subjective as seen through the lenses of sources you may or may not be quoting.

    There’s a good chance you may even be right , – or you could be completely wrong.

    Fact is , all the doomsayers and all the detractors saying this and that will happen have been proven wrong. With the result being the exact opposite. If that offends, so be it.

    And to be frank?- I dont think the Donald is ruffled by stepping on the toes of a few haloed institutions or individuals . Clearly he is not. I think his angling is far further on down the track than you or I even could credit. As are the motivations of the man.

    Hes a nationalist, he is a businessman.

    Not a politician.

    • Tricledrown 10.1
      19 July 2018 at 7:11 pm

      Wild Katipo he’s not a very good business man and like wise politician.
      He is a wise guy alah Mafia.
      You are bonkers if you think he is anything else.
      Refer to how many businesses he has bankrupted and who has bailed him out.
      Not a politician Trump has been involved in politics for a very long time.
      He has had political ambitions from way back.
      Read a little wider than his own belious BS.

      • WILD KATIPO 10.1.1
        19 July 2018 at 7:52 pm

        You are missing the point. Entirely. In your opinion he is this or that. You point to connections with this mafia or that being Sicilian, Russian or any number of others.

        You criticize his business capabilities. Fair enough. But he is very wealthy regardless . With time on his hands pre being the President to form his own opinions. I think you still do not realize his motivations. I also think so many also do the same. And then there are the lazy thinkers who simply digest the George Soro’s mass global media and take it all at face value. The example I gave in Jerusalem is but one possible conviction he might have.

        Placing the U.S embassy closer to Jerusalem is a hint .

        And I shall explain : If the third temple is to be built in the city of David as opposed to an old Roman fortress named Antonius,.. means that the Muslims get to have their Dome of the Rock , the Jews get to have their third Temple rebuilt and the animal sacrifices restored after 2000 years.

        This , – will go a long way towards a ‘temporary’ peace in the middle east. A dubious ‘peace’, but a ‘peace’ nonetheless. I think politicians have been waiting a long time for Israeli archaeologists to finally dig the truth up. This is what I am referring to .

        And ‘peace’ in the middle east WILL upset ALL of those industry’s that thrive on a state of perpetual war to sell their wares…many of which are to be found in the United States of America. And that WILL cause massive change in foreign policy’s of leading nations.

        As well as piss off many oligarchs and their co workers who thrived on that state of perpetual unrest to make untold profits .

        Can you not see this?

        • WILD KATIPO 10.1.1.1
          19 July 2018 at 8:09 pm

          Along with his son in law,… Jared,… who seems to have an unwarranted mandate to speak in Israel, before the Donald, even …

          ——————————————–

          Jared Kushner

          ‘ He married Ivanka Trump, daughter of businessman Donald Trump, in a Jewish ceremony on October 25, 2009. They had met in 2005 through mutual friends. Kushner and his wife (who converted to Judaism in 2009) are Modern Orthodox Jews, keep a kosher home, and observe the Jewish Shabbat ‘

          Jared Kushner – Wikipedia
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Kushner

          ———————————————

          Rightly or wrongly there is the reason.

          Its familial , its religious , – and it WILL affect foreign policy . Whether we like it or not. Now,… tell me,… which President HASN’T had strong personal biases during their terms ?

          • Tricledrown 10.1.1.1.1
            19 July 2018 at 8:39 pm

            Yet Trump accepts support from antisemitic fundamentalists.
            Trump is just throwing another dead cat to take the media’s eye off his corruption.
            John Key was good at dat.
            Stephen Joyce not so good.
            Whenever Trump is cornered he throws another dead cat

            • WILD KATIPO 10.1.1.1.1.1
              19 July 2018 at 8:54 pm

              Again, – the businessman’s mentality. Not the politicians. That man is more interested in a renaissance of American predominance in global world trade than being the global policeman.

              Being the global policeman costs money.

              Lots of American taxpayers money.

              And we know how the Americans are about taxation.

              Hence why he campaigned on making Europe pull its weight in NATO,- and pay for its own protections against the ‘ Ruskies’ instead of expecting the USA to bail them out , and tbh , – why should the American taxpayer subsidize Europe militarily?

              Why ?

              So he makes friends with Putin and deflates the whole antagonistic scenario (which the George Soro’s mass media previously fed upon btw and made their billions on peddling such ‘ hate Trump ‘media … ) – and a few ‘world’ leaders’become crest fallen… along with a few far right wing military industrialist’s hawks profit making capability’s , …so what?

              Really ,… so what ???

              Point being?

              I would actually like to learn more about who the antisemitic fundamentalists are that he accepted support from. It would be interesting to contrast that with the Israeli thing about moving the U.S embassy to Jerusalem…

              • Tricledrown …
                19 July 2018 at 9:36 pm

                Wild Katipo where have you been the neo Fascists support Trump KKK.
                Steve Bannon read who he is garnering support from.
                Trump is a political animal running with the hares hunting with the foxes.
                It’s like you haven’t read anything on Trump in the last 20 years or in the last 3 even.

                • WILD KATIPO …
                  19 July 2018 at 9:49 pm

                  Didn’t he sack Bannon?

                  Didn’t he disassociate himself from the KKK ?

                  I think he did. And that was a while ago.

                  He also sacked a number of those that seemed to have supported continuance of war / tensions in foreign policy…

                  One thing that will always stick in my mind is the casually accepted Tuesday signing off of drone strikes that indiscriminately killed men , woman and children non combatants in the Middle East as Obama did…

                  That went on for five long years.

                  To date ?

                  Trump hasn’t done that.

                  He just made friends with Putin. And Kim Jong-un .

                  And thats a crime.

                  • joe90 …
                    19 July 2018 at 10:10 pm

                    To date ?

                    Trump hasn’t done that.

                    tRump ditched Obama era restrictions on airstrikes against Islamic radicals, and in his first year in office he’s managed to kill more civilians than Obama.

                    Our minimum estimate of civilians likely killed by Coalition since 2014 is now 5,117 – with 55% of deaths occuring under Trump's leadership pic.twitter.com/H8S5Ihwuzb— Airwars (@airwars) August 22, 2017

                    While the mainstream media focuses on anything but the current state of U.S. intervention in the Middle East, the Trump Administration is breaking records by accumulating a horrific number of civilian deaths.

                    President Trump has been in office for just 9 months, and he has already surpassed Obama’s murderous record with estimated numbers as high as 4,500 civilian deaths.

                    Trump made headlines in December 2015, when he declared that if elected, he would not only kill members of ISIS—he would also “take out their families.” He is following through on that promise, according to a report from Steven Feldstein, former U.S. Deputy Assistant Secretary of State.

                    http://www.ronpaullibertyreport.com/archives/trump-has-killed-more-civilians-with-illegal-drone-strikes-in-9-months-than-obama-did-in-8-years

                    The 161 air strikes in Somalia and Yemen together represent a threefold increase over US attacks in the same countries in 2016.

                    That elevated pace of drone operations continued in 2018. So far this year, the BIJ has counted at least 15 US air strikes in Somalia and 27 in Yemen. As many as 81 people died in the air raids; around 10 of them were probably innocent bystanders, according to the bureau.

                    In Afghanistan, the number of air strikes involving manned and unmanned warplanes roughly doubled between 2016 and 2017, and dropped slightly in the first five months of 2018, according to official US military statistics provided to Motherboard by CENTCOM. There were 615 US air attacks in 2016, 1,248 in 2017, and 353 between January and May 2018.

                    But the intensity of the strikes in Afghanistan increased out of proportion to the number of attacks. In that country, US aircraft dropped or fired 1,337 bombs and missiles in 2016, 4,361 in 2017, and 2,339 in the first five months of 2018.

                    https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/7xmadd/trump-escalating-americas-drone-war

                    • WILD KATIPO …
                      19 July 2018 at 10:42 pm

                      Oh yes ,… Motherboard.

                      Fun for all the family. This is why we hear claims of fake news from all manner of places. Yet you cannot accept Wikileaks founder and John Pilgers interview… why is that?… you would rather use another obscure site to justify your jaundiced views instead…

                      ‘Clinton & ISIS funded by same money’ – Assange interview … – YouTube
                      Video for julian assange john pilger arms to isis you tube▶ 2:47

                      And again… what was Trumps major crimes?

                      Making friends with Kim Jung – un and Putin.

                      Such a terrible thing to do.

                      World peace is in peril because Trump took away some lollies from those who profited off of death .

                      Sad.

                    • WILD KATIPO …
                      19 July 2018 at 11:06 pm

                      Interesting also,… that those who would quote ‘ CENTROM ‘ would also be the first to denigrate the NZDF ‘s Keating ( and rightly so ) for Operation Burnham… however ,.. who’s side are you really on when the so-called statistics seem to back your argument ie :

                      When Trump has already spoken against those hawks who for purely financial reasons WANT war.,…

                      Yet here you are ,.. quoting those same American military sources as the Gospel truth because you hate Trump. Just like they do.And because their industrial masters make fat profits with their war machine.

                      Whose side are you really on ?.

                      Yeah. Just quoting facts to suit your purpose. And even then ,… covered with the bogus lies of those who gain. Who’s side are you on boy, whose side are you on?

                      Billy Bragg – Which Side Are You On? – YouTube
                      Video for billy bragg whose side are you on you tube▶ 2:35

                      I’m sure I could drag up a thousand sites to justify any manner of perverse stats and narratives.

                      As you have done.

                    • WILD KATIPO …
                      19 July 2018 at 11:51 pm

                      And one other thing ,..

                      ———————————————-

                      ” In 1995 , … ‘Congress adopted the Jerusalem Embassy act , urging the Federal Government to relocate the American Embassy to Jerusalem , and to recognize that that city , and so importantly , is Israels capital ” .

                      ———————————————-

                      So it is not a new thing at all.

                      And with the advances in archaeology in Israel , – and coupled with the enhancements and backing up of Biblical scholars , certainly seems as if Trump is moving in circles that are far from the political, far from the temporal , and more aligned with that which is historical , and perhaps even ‘ spiritual’.

                      This is why he is compared to a new ‘ Cyrus’.

                      Though I think it is more pragmatic than ‘ scriptural’.

                      I don’t like Jonathan Khan.

                      But here he is:

                      The Cyrus – Trump Connection – YouTube
                      Video for The Cyrus – Trump Connection▶ 13:21

                    • joe90 …
                      20 July 2018 at 12:56 am

                      and perhaps even ‘ spiritual’.

                      So, you’re an end times loon, bless.

                    • WILD KATIPO …
                      20 July 2018 at 1:03 am

                      And back to the original reasoning apart from the politically correct one, ie THIS :

                      The Temple | Bob Cornuke – YouTube
                      Video for the temple bob cornuke you tube▶ 30:50

                      You can bang on as much as you like with official sounding information but at the end of the day that’s no different than any other apologist for trying to justify their reasoning. Proves less than nothing. You will die, – just like that cattle beast steak you consumed at the barbecue, no less, no more.

                      You win less than zero.

                    • WILD KATIPO …
                      20 July 2018 at 1:07 am

                      And you are ,… a nihilist?

                      Bless.

                      Just enjoy that beef steak.

                      Then mock some 19th century native Americans for giving thanks because they didn’t have the benefit of cellophane wrapped meat.

                      Yeah , Good on ya, Trev.

  11. WILD KATIPO 11
    19 July 2018 at 6:29 pm

    Anyhows, Keys gone and we have a new govt . I haven’t posted for awhile. And I’m feeling this way. Pretty contented .

    Jimi Hendrix – Ezy Ryder (Audio) – YouTube

  12. Philj 12
    23 July 2018 at 10:35 am

    I have two adult sons, Don and Vlad. They’re nice boys. One’s a member of a legal gang, I’m told, the other has done well. I love them both.

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

  • Bernard’s Saturday Soliloquy for the week to July 27

    Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: My top six things to note around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the week to July 27 were:1. The Minister for Ford Rangers strikes againTransport Minister Simeon Brown was again the busiest of the Cabinet ministers this week, announcing an ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    1 hour ago
  • Ticket To Anywhere

    You got a fast carAnd I want a ticket to anywhereMaybe we make a dealMaybe together we can get somewhereAny place is betterYesterday’s newsletter, Trust In Me, on the report of abuse in state care, and by religious organisations, between 1950 and 2019, coupled with the hypocrisy of Christopher Luxon ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    2 hours ago
  • Stories of varying weight

    Hello! Here comes the Saturday edition of More Than A Feilding, catching you up on anything you may have missed. Share Read more ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    7 hours ago
  • Balancing External Security and the Economy

    New Zealand is again having to reconcile conflicting pressures from its military and its trade interests. Should we join Pillar Two of AUKUS and risk compromising our markets in China? For a century after New Zealand was founded in 1840, its external security arrangements and external economics arrangements were aligned. ...
    PunditBy Brian Easton
    19 hours ago
  • Weekly Climate Wrap: The unravelling of the offsets

    The ‘50 Shades of Green’ farmers’ protest in 2019 was heavy on climate change denial, but five years on, scepticism and criticism about the idea that pine forests can save us is growing across the board. File photo: Lynn GrievesonTL;DR: Here’s the top six news items of note in climate ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    24 hours ago
  • What makes us tick

    This morning the sky was bright.The birds, in their usual joyous bliss. Nature doesn’t seem to feel the heat of what might angst humans.Their calls are clear and beautiful.Just some random thoughts:MāoriPaul Goldsmith has announced his government will roll back the judiciary’s rulings on Māori Customary Marine Title, which recognises ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    1 day ago
  • Foreshore and seabed 2.0

    In 2003, the Court of Appeal delivered its decision in Ngati Apa v Attorney-General, ruling that Māori customary title over the foreshore and seabed had not been universally extinguished, and that the Māori Land Court could determine claims and confirm title if the facts supported it. This kicked off the ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 day ago
  • Gordon Campbell on the Royal Commission report into abuse in care

    Earlier this week at Parliament, Labour leader Chris Hipkins was applauded for saying that the response to the final report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care had to be “bigger than politics.” True, but the fine words, apologies and “we hear you” messages will soon ring ...
    WerewolfBy lyndon
    1 day ago
  • The Kākā’s Pick 'n' Mix for Friday, July 26

    TL;DR: In news breaking this morning:The Ministry of Education is cutting $2 billion from its school building programme so the National-ACT-NZ First Coalition Government has enough money to deliver tax cuts; The Government has quietly lowered its child poverty reduction targets to make them easier to achieve;Te Whatu Ora-Health NZ’s ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    1 day ago
  • Weekly Roundup 26-July-2024

    Kia ora. These are some stories that caught our eye this week – as always, feel free to share yours in the comments. Our header image this week (via Eke Panuku) shows the planned upgrade for the Karanga Plaza Tidal Swimming Steps. The week in Greater Auckland On ...
    Greater AucklandBy Greater Auckland
    1 day ago
  • God what a relief

    1. What's not to love about the way the Harris campaign is turning things around?a. Nothingb. Love all of itc. God what a reliefd. Not that it will be by any means easye. All of the above 2. Documents released by the Ministry of Health show Associate Health Minister Casey ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    1 day ago
  • Trust In Me

    Trust in me in all you doHave the faith I have in youLove will see us through, if only you trust in meWhy don't you, you trust me?In a week that saw the release of the 3,000 page Abuse in Care report Christopher Luxon was being asked about Boot Camps. ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    1 day ago
  • The Hoon around the week to July 26

    TL;DR: The podcast above of the weekly ‘hoon’ webinar for paying subscribers last night features co-hosts and talking about the Royal Commission Inquiry into Abuse in Care report released this week, and with:The Kākā’s climate correspondent on a UN push to not recognise carbon offset markets and ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    1 day ago
  • The Kākā’s Journal of Record for Friday, July 26

    TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Friday, July 26, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:Transport: Simeon Brown announced $802.9 million in funding for 18 new trains on the Wairarapa and Manawatū rail lines, which ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    1 day ago
  • Radical law changes needed to build road

    The northern expressway extension from Warkworth to Whangarei is likely to require radical changes to legislation if it is going to be built within the foreseeable future. The Government’s powers to purchase land, the planning process and current restrictions on road tolling are all going to need to be changed ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    1 day ago
  • Skeptical Science New Research for Week #30 2024

    Open access notables Could an extremely cold central European winter such as 1963 happen again despite climate change?, Sippel et al., Weather and Climate Dynamics: Here, we first show based on multiple attribution methods that a winter of similar circulation conditions to 1963 would still lead to an extreme seasonal ...
    Skeptical Science
    2 days ago
  • First they came for the Māori

    Text within this block will maintain its original spacing when publishedFirst they came for the doctors But I was confused by the numbers and costs So I didn't speak up Then they came for our police and nurses And I didn't think we could afford those costs anyway So I ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    2 days ago
  • Join us for the weekly Hoon on YouTube Live

    Photo by Joshua J. Cotten on UnsplashWe’re back again after our mid-winter break. We’re still with the ‘new’ day of the week (Thursday rather than Friday) when we have our ‘hoon’ webinar with paying subscribers to The Kākā for an hour at 5 pm.Jump on this link on YouTube Livestream ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    2 days ago
  • Will the real PM Luxon please stand up?

    Notes: This is a free article. Abuse in Care themes are mentioned. Video is at the bottom.BackgroundYesterday’s report into Abuse in Care revealed that at least 1 in 3 of all who went through state and faith based care were abused - often horrifically. At least, because not all survivors ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    2 days ago
  • Will debt reduction trump abuse in care redress?

    Luxon speaks in Parliament yesterday about the Abuse in Care report. Photo: Hagen Hopkins/Getty ImagesTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy today are:PM Christopher Luxon said yesterday in tabling the Abuse in Care report in Parliament he wanted to ‘do the ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    2 days ago
  • Olywhites and Time Bandits

    About a decade ago I worked with a bloke called Steve. He was the grizzled veteran coder, a few years older than me, who knew where the bodies were buried - code wise. Despite his best efforts to be approachable and friendly he could be kind of gruff, through to ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    2 days ago
  • Why were the 1930s so hot in North America?

    This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Jeff Masters and Bob Henson Those who’ve trawled social media during heat waves have likely encountered a tidbit frequently used to brush aside human-caused climate change: Many U.S. states and cities had their single hottest temperature on record during the 1930s, setting incredible heat marks ...
    Skeptical Science
    2 days ago
  • Throwback Thursday – Thinking about Expressways

    Some of the recent announcements from the government have reminded us of posts we’ve written in the past. Here’s one from early 2020. There were plenty of reactions to the government’s infrastructure announcement a few weeks ago which saw them fund a bunch of big roading projects. One of ...
    Greater AucklandBy Greater Auckland
    2 days ago
  • The Kākā’s Pick 'n' Mix for Thursday, July 25

    TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:00 am on Thursday, July 25 are:News: Why Electric Kiwi is closing to new customers - and why it matters RNZ’s Susan EdmundsScoop: Government drops ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    2 days ago
  • The Possum: Demon or Friend?

    Hi,I felt a small wet tongue snaking through one of the holes in my Crocs. It explored my big toe, darting down one side, then the other. “He’s looking for some toe cheese,” said the woman next to me, words that still haunt me to this day.Growing up in New ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    2 days ago
  • Not a story

    Yesterday I happily quoted the Prime Minister without fact-checking him and sure enough, it turns out his numbers were all to hell. It’s not four kg of Royal Commission report, it’s fourteen.My friend and one-time colleague-in-comms Hazel Phillips gently alerted me to my error almost as soon as I’d hit ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    2 days ago
  • The Kākā’s Journal of Record for Thursday, July 25

    TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Thursday, July 25, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day were:The Abuse in Care Royal Commission of Inquiry published its final report yesterday.PM Christopher Luxon and The Minister responsible for ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    2 days ago
  • A tougher line on “proactive release”?

    The Official Information Act has always been a battle between requesters seeking information, and governments seeking to control it. Information is power, so Ministers and government agencies want to manage what is released and when, for their own convenience, and legality and democracy be damned. Their most recent tactic for ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • 'Let's build a motorway costing $100 million per km, before emissions costs'

    TL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy today are:Transport and Energy Minister Simeon Brown is accelerating plans to spend at least $10 billion through Public Private Partnerships (PPPs) to extend State Highway One as a four-lane ‘Expressway’ from Warkworth to Whangarei ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    3 days ago
  • Lester's Prescription – Positive Bleeding.

    I live my life (woo-ooh-ooh)With no control in my destinyYea-yeah, yea-yeah (woo-ooh-ooh)I can bleed when I want to bleedSo come on, come on (woo-ooh-ooh)You can bleed when you want to bleedYea-yeah, come on (woo-ooh-ooh)Everybody bleed when they want to bleedCome on and bleedGovernments face tough challenges. Selling unpopular decisions to ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    3 days ago
  • Casey Costello gaslights Labour in the House

    Please note:To skip directly to the- parliamentary footage in the video, scroll to 1:21 To skip to audio please click on the headphone icon on the left hand side of the screenThis video / audio section is under development. ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    3 days ago
  • Why is the Texas grid in such bad shape?

    This is a re-post from the Climate Brink by Andrew Dessler Headline from 2021 The Texas grid, run by ERCOT, has had a rough few years. In 2021, winter storm Uri blacked out much of the state for several days. About a week ago, Hurricane Beryl knocked out ...
    Skeptical Science
    3 days ago
  • Gordon Campbell on a textbook case of spending waste by the Luxon government

    Given the crackdown on wasteful government spending, it behooves me to point to a high profile example of spending by the Luxon government that looks like a big, fat waste of time and money. I’m talking about the deployment of NZDF personnel to support the US-led coalition in the Red ...
    WerewolfBy lyndon
    3 days ago
  • The Kākā’s Pick 'n' Mix for Wednesday, July 24

    TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:40 am on Wednesday, July 24 are:Deep Dive: Chipping away at the housing crisis, including my comments RNZ/Newsroom’s The DetailNews: Government softens on asset sales, ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    3 days ago
  • LXR Takaanini

    As I reported about the city centre, Auckland’s rail network is also going through a difficult and disruptive period which is rapidly approaching a culmination, this will result in a significant upgrade to the whole network. Hallelujah. Also like the city centre this is an upgrade predicated on the City ...
    Greater AucklandBy Patrick Reynolds
    3 days ago
  • Four kilograms of pain

    Today, a 4 kilogram report will be delivered to Parliament. We know this is what the report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in State and Faith-based Care weighs, because our Prime Minister told us so.Some reporter had blindsided him by asking a question about something done by ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    3 days ago
  • The Kākā’s Journal of Record for Wednesday, July 24

    TL;DR: As of 7:00 am on Wednesday, July 24, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:Beehive: Transport Minister Simeon Brown announced plans to use PPPs to fund, build and run a four-lane expressway between Auckland ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    3 days ago
  • Luxon gets caught out

    NewstalkZB host Mike Hosking, who can usually be relied on to give Prime Minister Christopher Luxon an easy run, did not do so yesterday when he interviewed him about the HealthNZ deficit. Luxon is trying to use a deficit reported last year by HealthNZ as yet another example of the ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    3 days ago
  • A worrying sign

    Back in January a StatsNZ employee gave a speech at Rātana on behalf of tangata whenua in which he insulted and criticised the government. The speech clearly violated the principle of a neutral public service, and StatsNZ started an investigation. Part of that was getting an external consultant to examine ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • Are we fine with 47.9% home-ownership by 2048?

    Renting for life: Shared ownership initiatives are unlikely to slow the slide in home ownership by much. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy today are:A Deloitte report for Westpac has projected Aotearoa’s home-ownership rate will ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago
  • Let's Win This

    You're broken down and tiredOf living life on a merry go roundAnd you can't find the fighterBut I see it in you so we gonna walk it outAnd move mountainsWe gonna walk it outAnd move mountainsAnd I'll rise upI'll rise like the dayI'll rise upI'll rise unafraidI'll rise upAnd I'll ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    4 days ago
  • Waimahara: The Singing Spirit of Water

    There’s been a change in Myers Park. Down the steps from St. Kevin’s Arcade, past the grassy slopes, the children’s playground, the benches and that goat statue, there has been a transformation. The underpass for Mayoral Drive has gone from a barren, grey, concrete tunnel, to a place that thrums ...
    Greater AucklandBy Connor Sharp
    4 days ago
  • A major milestone: Global climate pollution may have just peaked

    This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections Global society may have finally slammed on the brakes for climate-warming pollution released by human fossil fuel combustion. According to the Carbon Monitor Project, the total global climate pollution released between February and May 2024 declined slightly from the amount released during the same ...
    Skeptical Science
    4 days ago
  • The Kākā’s Pick 'n' Mix for Tuesday, July 23

    TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:00 am on Tuesday, July 23 are:Deep Dive: Penlink: where tolling rhetoric meets reality BusinessDesk-$$$’s Oliver LewisScoop: Te Pūkenga plans for regional polytechs leak out ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago
  • The Kākā’s Journal of Record for Tuesday, July 23

    TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Tuesday, July 23, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:Health: Shane Reti announced the Board of Te Whatu Ora- Health New Zealand was being replaced with Commissioner Lester Levy ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago
  • HealthNZ and Luxon at cross purposes over budget blowout

    Health NZ warned the Government at the end of March that it was running over Budget. But the reasons it gave were very different to those offered by the Prime Minister yesterday. Prime Minister Christopher Luxon blamed the “botched merger” of the 20 District Health Boards (DHBs) to create Health ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    4 days ago
  • 2500-3000 more healthcare staff expected to be fired, as Shane Reti blames Labour for a budget defic...

    Long ReadKey Summary: Although National increased the health budget by $1.4 billion in May, they used an old funding model to project health system costs, and never bothered to update their pre-election numbers. They were told during the Health Select Committees earlier in the year their budget amount was deficient, ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    4 days ago
  • Might Kamala Harris be about to get a 'stardust' moment like Jacinda Ardern?

    As a momentous, historic weekend in US politics unfolded, analysts and commentators grasped for precedents and comparisons to help explain the significance and power of the choice Joe Biden had made. The 46th president had swept the Democratic party’s primaries but just over 100 days from the election had chosen ...
    PunditBy Tim Watkin
    5 days ago
  • Solutions Interview: Steven Hail on MMT & ecological economics

    TL;DR: I’m casting around for new ideas and ways of thinking about Aotearoa’s political economy to find a few solutions to our cascading and self-reinforcing housing, poverty and climate crises.Associate Professor runs an online masters degree in the economics of sustainability at Torrens University in Australia and is organising ...
    The KakaBy Steven Hail
    5 days ago
  • Reported back

    The Finance and Expenditure Committee has reported back on National's Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill. The bill sets up water for privatisation, and was introduced under urgency, then rammed through select committee with no time even for local councils to make a proper submission. Naturally, national's select committee ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Vandrad the Viking, Christopher Coombes, and Literary Archaeology

    Some years ago, I bought a book at Dunedin’s Regent Booksale for $1.50. As one does. Vandrad the Viking (1898), by J. Storer Clouston, is an obscure book these days – I cannot find a proper online review – but soon it was sitting on my shelf, gathering dust alongside ...
    A Phuulish FellowBy strda221
    5 days ago
  • Gordon Campbell On The Biden Withdrawal

    History is not on the side of the centre-left, when Democratic presidents fall behind in the polls and choose not to run for re-election. On both previous occasions in the past 75 years (Harry Truman in 1952, Lyndon Johnson in 1968) the Democrats proceeded to then lose the White House ...
    WerewolfBy lyndon
    5 days ago
  • Joe Biden's withdrawal puts the spotlight back on Kamala and the USA's complicated relatio...

    This is a free articleCoverageThis morning, US President Joe Biden announced his withdrawal from the Presidential race. And that is genuinely newsworthy. Thanks for your service, President Biden, and all the best to you and yours.However, the media in New Zealand, particularly the 1News nightly bulletin, has been breathlessly covering ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    5 days ago
  • Why we have to challenge our national fiscal assumptions

    A homeless person’s camp beside a blocked-off slipped damage walkway in Freeman’s Bay: we are chasing our tail on our worsening and inter-related housing, poverty and climate crises. Photo: Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • Existential Crisis and Damaged Brains

    What has happened to it all?Crazy, some'd sayWhere is the life that I recognise?(Gone away)But I won't cry for yesterdayThere's an ordinary worldSomehow I have to findAnd as I try to make my wayTo the ordinary worldYesterday morning began as many others - what to write about today? I began ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    5 days ago
  • A speed limit is not a target, and yet…

    This is a guest post from longtime supporter Mr Plod, whose previous contributions include a proposal that Hamilton become New Zealand’s capital city, and that we should switch which side of the road we drive on. A recent Newsroom article, “Back to school for the Govt’s new speed limit policy“, ...
    Greater AucklandBy Guest Post
    5 days ago
  • The Kākā’s Pick 'n' Mix for Monday, July 22

    TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:00 am on Monday, July 22 are:Today’s Must Read: Father and son live in a tent, and have done for four years, in a million ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • The Kākā’s Journal of Record for Monday, July 22

    TL;DR: As of 7:00 am on Monday, July 22, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:US President Joe Biden announced via X this morning he would not stand for a second term.Multinational professional services firm ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • 2024 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #29

    A listing of 32 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, July 14, 2024 thru Sat, July 20, 2024. Story of the week As reflected by preponderance of coverage, our Story of the Week is Project 2025. Until now traveling ...
    Skeptical Science
    6 days ago
  • I'd like to share what I did this weekend

    This weekend, a friend pointed out someone who said they’d like to read my posts, but didn’t want to pay. And my first reaction was sympathy.I’ve already told folks that if they can’t comfortably subscribe, and would like to read, I’d be happy to offer free subscriptions. I don’t want ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    6 days ago
  • For the children – Why mere sentiment can be a misleading force in our lives, and lead to unex...

    National: The Party of ‘Law and Order’ IntroductionThis weekend, the Government formally kicked off one of their flagship policy programs: a military style boot camp that New Zealand has experimented with over the past 50 years. Cartoon credit: Guy BodyIt’s very popular with the National Party’s Law and Order image, ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    6 days ago
  • A friend in uncertain times

    Day one of the solo leg of my long journey home begins with my favourite sound: footfalls in an empty street. 5.00 am and it’s already light and already too warm, almost.If I can make the train that leaves Budapest later this hour I could be in Belgrade by nightfall; ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    6 days ago
  • The Chaotic World of Male Diet Influencers

    Hi,We’ll get to the horrific world of male diet influencers (AKA Beefy Boys) shortly, but first you will be glad to know that since I sent out the Webworm explaining why the assassination attempt on Donald Trump was not a false flag operation, I’ve heard from a load of people ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    6 days ago
  • It's Starting To Look A Lot Like… Y2K

    Do you remember Y2K, the threat that hung over humanity in the closing days of the twentieth century? Horror scenarios of planes falling from the sky, electronic payments failing and ATMs refusing to dispense cash. As for your VCR following instructions and recording your favourite show - forget about it.All ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    1 week ago
  • Bernard’s Saturday Soliloquy for the week to July 20

    Climate Change Minister Simon Watts being questioned by The Kākā’s Bernard Hickey.TL;DR: My top six things to note around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the week to July 20 were:1. A strategy that fails Zero Carbon Act & Paris targetsThe National-ACT-NZ First Coalition Government finally unveiled ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    1 week ago
  • Pharmac Director, Climate Change Commissioner, Health NZ Directors – The latest to quit this m...

    Summary:As New Zealand loses at least 12 leaders in the public service space of health, climate, and pharmaceuticals, this month alone, directly in response to the Government’s policies and budget choices, what lies ahead may be darker than it appears. Tui examines some of those departures and draws a long ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    1 week ago
  • Flooding Housing Policy

    The Minister of Housing’s ambition is to reduce markedly the ratio of house prices to household incomes. If his strategy works it would transform the housing market, dramatically changing the prospects of housing as an investment.Leaving aside the Minister’s metaphor of ‘flooding the market’ I do not see how the ...
    PunditBy Brian Easton
    1 week ago
  • A Voyage Among the Vandals: Accepted (Again!)

    As previously noted, my historical fantasy piece, set in the fifth-century Mediterranean, was accepted for a Pirate Horror anthology, only for the anthology to later fall through. But in a good bit of news, it turned out that the story could indeed be re-marketed as sword and sorcery. As of ...
    A Phuulish FellowBy strda221
    1 week ago
  • The Kākā's Chorus for Friday, July 19

    An employee of tobacco company Philip Morris International demonstrates a heated tobacco device. Photo: Getty ImagesTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy on Friday, July 19 are:At a time when the Coalition Government is cutting spending on health, infrastructure, education, housing ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    1 week ago
  • The Kākā’s Pick 'n' Mix for Friday, July 19

    TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 8:30 am on Friday, July 19 are:Scoop: NZ First Minister Casey Costello orders 50% cut to excise tax on heated tobacco products. The minister has ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    1 week ago
  • Weekly Roundup 19-July-2024

    Kia ora, it’s time for another Friday roundup, in which we pull together some of the links and stories that caught our eye this week. Feel free to add more in the comments! Our header image this week shows a foggy day in Auckland town, captured by Patrick Reynolds. ...
    Greater AucklandBy Greater Auckland
    1 week ago
  • Weekly Climate Wrap: A market-led plan for failure

    TL;DR : Here’s the top six items climate news for Aotearoa this week, as selected by Bernard Hickey and The Kākā’s climate correspondent Cathrine Dyer. A discussion recorded yesterday is in the video above and the audio of that sent onto the podcast feed.The Government released its draft Emissions Reduction ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    1 week ago
  • Tobacco First

    Save some money, get rich and old, bring it back to Tobacco Road.Bring that dynamite and a crane, blow it up, start all over again.Roll up. Roll up. Or tailor made, if you prefer...Whether you’re selling ciggies, digging for gold, catching dolphins in your nets, or encouraging folks to flutter ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    1 week ago
  • Trump’s Adopted Son.

    Waiting In The Wings: For truly, if Trump is America’s un-assassinated Caesar, then J.D. Vance is America’s Octavian, the Republic’s youthful undertaker – and its first Emperor.DONALD TRUMP’S SELECTION of James D. Vance as his running-mate bodes ill for the American republic. A fervent supporter of Viktor Orban, the “illiberal” prime ...
    Bowalley Road
    1 week ago
  • The Kākā’s Journal of Record for Friday, July 19

    TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Friday, July 19, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:The PSA announced the Employment Relations Authority (ERA) had ruled in the PSA’s favour in its case against the Ministry ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    1 week ago

  • Joint statement from the Prime Ministers of Canada, Australia and New Zealand

    Australia, Canada and New Zealand today issued the following statement on the need for an urgent ceasefire in Gaza and the risk of expanded conflict between Hizballah and Israel. The situation in Gaza is catastrophic. The human suffering is unacceptable. It cannot continue.  We remain unequivocal in our condemnation of ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    18 hours ago
  • AG reminds institutions of legal obligations

    Attorney-General Judith Collins today reminded all State and faith-based institutions of their legal obligation to preserve records relevant to the safety and wellbeing of those in its care. “The Abuse in Care Inquiry’s report has found cases where records of the most vulnerable people in State and faith‑based institutions were ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    21 hours ago
  • More young people learning about digital safety

    Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says the Government’s online safety website for children and young people has reached one million page views.  “It is great to see so many young people and their families accessing the site Keep It Real Online to learn how to stay safe online, and manage ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    22 hours ago
  • Speech to the Conference for General Practice 2024

    Tēnā tātou katoa,  Ngā mihi te rangi, ngā mihi te whenua, ngā mihi ki a koutou, kia ora mai koutou. Thank you for the opportunity to be here and the invitation to speak at this 50th anniversary conference. I acknowledge all those who have gone before us and paved the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    24 hours ago
  • Employers and payroll providers ready for tax changes

    New Zealand’s payroll providers have successfully prepared to ensure 3.5 million individuals will, from Wednesday next week, be able to keep more of what they earn each pay, says Finance Minister Nicola Willis and Revenue Minister Simon Watts.  “The Government's tax policy changes are legally effective from Wednesday. Delivering this tax ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Experimental vineyard futureproofs wine industry

    An experimental vineyard which will help futureproof the wine sector has been opened in Blenheim by Associate Regional Development Minister Mark Patterson. The covered vineyard, based at the New Zealand Wine Centre – Te Pokapū Wāina o Aotearoa, enables controlled environmental conditions. “The research that will be produced at the Experimental ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Funding confirmed for regions affected by North Island Weather Events

    The Coalition Government has confirmed the indicative regional breakdown of North Island Weather Event (NIWE) funding for state highway recovery projects funded through Budget 2024, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Regions in the North Island suffered extensive and devastating damage from Cyclone Gabrielle and the 2023 Auckland Anniversary Floods, and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Indonesian Foreign Minister to visit

    Indonesia’s Foreign Minister, Retno Marsudi, will visit New Zealand next week, Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced.   “Indonesia is important to New Zealand’s security and economic interests and is our closest South East Asian neighbour,” says Mr Peters, who is currently in Laos to engage with South East Asian partners. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Strengthening partnership with Ngāti Maniapoto

    He aha te kai a te rangatira? He kōrero, he kōrero, he kōrero. The government has reaffirmed its commitment to supporting the aspirations of Ngāti Maniapoto, Minister for Māori Development Tama Potaka says. “My thanks to Te Nehenehenui Trust – Ngāti Maniapoto for bringing their important kōrero to a ministerial ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Transport Minister thanks outgoing CAA Chair

    Transport Minister Simeon Brown has thanked outgoing Chair of the Civil Aviation Authority, Janice Fredric, for her service to the board.“I have received Ms Fredric’s resignation from the role of Chair of the Civil Aviation Authority,” Mr Brown says.“On behalf of the Government, I want to thank Ms Fredric for ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Test for Customary Marine Title being restored

    The Government is proposing legislation to overturn a Court of Appeal decision and amend the Marine and Coastal Area Act in order to restore Parliament’s test for Customary Marine Title, Treaty Negotiations Minister Paul Goldsmith says.  “Section 58 required an applicant group to prove they have exclusively used and occupied ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Opposition united in bad faith over ECE sector review

    Regulation Minister David Seymour says that opposition parties have united in bad faith, opposing what they claim are ‘dangerous changes’ to the Early Childhood Education sector, despite no changes even being proposed yet.  “Issues with affordability and availability of early childhood education, and the complexity of its regulation, has led ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Kiwis having their say on first regulatory review

    After receiving more than 740 submissions in the first 20 days, Regulation Minister David Seymour is asking the Ministry for Regulation to extend engagement on the early childhood education regulation review by an extra two weeks.  “The level of interest has been very high, and from the conversations I’ve been ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Government upgrading Lower North Island commuter rail

    The Coalition Government is investing $802.9 million into the Wairarapa and Manawatū rail lines as part of a funding agreement with the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA), KiwiRail, and the Greater Wellington and Horizons Regional Councils to deliver more reliable services for commuters in the lower North Island, Transport Minister Simeon ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Government moves to ensure flood protection for Wairoa

    Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has announced his intention to appoint a Crown Manager to both Hawke’s Bay Regional and Wairoa District Councils to speed up the delivery of flood protection work in Wairoa."Recent severe weather events in Wairoa this year, combined with damage from Cyclone Gabrielle in 2023 have ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • PM speech to Parliament – Royal Commission of Inquiry’s Report into Abuse in Care

    Mr Speaker, this is a day that many New Zealanders who were abused in State care never thought would come. It’s the day that this Parliament accepts, with deep sorrow and regret, the Report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care.  At the heart of this report are the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Government acknowledges torture at Lake Alice

    For the first time, the Government is formally acknowledging some children and young people at Lake Alice Psychiatric Hospital experienced torture. The final report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in State and Faith-based Care “Whanaketia – through pain and trauma, from darkness to light,” was tabled in Parliament ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Government acknowledges courageous abuse survivors

    The Government has acknowledged the nearly 2,400 courageous survivors who shared their experiences during the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Historical Abuse in State and Faith-Based Care. The final report from the largest and most complex public inquiry ever held in New Zealand, the Royal Commission Inquiry “Whanaketia – through ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Half a million people use tax calculator

    With a week to go before hard-working New Zealanders see personal income tax relief for the first time in fourteen years, 513,000 people have used the Budget tax calculator to see how much they will benefit, says Finance Minister Nicola Willis.  “Tax relief is long overdue. From next Wednesday, personal income ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Paid Parental Leave improvements pass first reading

    Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Brooke van Velden says a bill that has passed its first reading will improve parental leave settings and give non-biological parents more flexibility as primary carer for their child. The Regulatory Systems Amendment Bill (No3), passed its first reading this morning. “It includes a change ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Rebuilding the economy through better regulation

    Two Bills designed to improve regulation and make it easier to do business have passed their first reading in Parliament, says Economic Development Minister Melissa Lee. The Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill and Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill make key changes to legislation administered by the Ministry ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • ‘Open banking’ and ‘open electricity’ on the way

    New legislation paves the way for greater competition in sectors such as banking and electricity, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly says. “Competitive markets boost productivity, create employment opportunities and lift living standards. To support competition, we need good quality regulation but, unfortunately, a recent OECD report ranked New ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Charity lotteries to be permitted to operate online

    Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says lotteries for charitable purposes, such as those run by the Heart Foundation, Coastguard NZ, and local hospices, will soon be allowed to operate online permanently. “Under current laws, these fundraising lotteries are only allowed to operate online until October 2024, after which ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Accelerating Northland Expressway

    The Coalition Government is accelerating work on the new four-lane expressway between Auckland and Whangārei as part of its Roads of National Significance programme, with an accelerated delivery model to deliver this project faster and more efficiently, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “For too long, the lack of resilient transport connections ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Sir Don to travel to Viet Nam as special envoy

    Sir Don McKinnon will travel to Viet Nam this week as a Special Envoy of the Government, Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced.    “It is important that the Government give due recognition to the significant contributions that General Secretary Nguyen Phu Trong made to New Zealand-Viet Nam relations,” Mr ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Grant Illingworth KC appointed as transitional Commissioner to Royal Commission

    Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says newly appointed Commissioner, Grant Illingworth KC, will help deliver the report for the first phase of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into COVID-19 Lessons, due on 28 November 2024.  “I am pleased to announce that Mr Illingworth will commence his appointment as ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • NZ to advance relationships with ASEAN partners

    Foreign Minister Winston Peters travels to Laos this week to participate in a series of Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN)-led Ministerial meetings in Vientiane.    “ASEAN plays an important role in supporting a peaceful, stable and prosperous Indo-Pacific,” Mr Peters says.   “This will be our third visit to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Backing mental health services on the West Coast

    Construction of a new mental health facility at Te Nikau Grey Hospital in Greymouth is today one step closer, Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey says. “This $27 million facility shows this Government is delivering on its promise to boost mental health care and improve front line services,” Mr Doocey says. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • NZ support for sustainable Pacific fisheries

    New Zealand is committing nearly $50 million to a package supporting sustainable Pacific fisheries development over the next four years, Foreign Minister Winston Peters and Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones announced today. “This support consisting of a range of initiatives demonstrates New Zealand’s commitment to assisting our Pacific partners ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Students’ needs at centre of new charter school adjustments

    Associate Education Minister David Seymour says proposed changes to the Education and Training Amendment Bill will ensure charter schools have more flexibility to negotiate employment agreements and are equipped with the right teaching resources. “Cabinet has agreed to progress an amendment which means unions will not be able to initiate ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Commissioner replaces Health NZ Board

    In response to serious concerns around oversight, overspend and a significant deterioration in financial outlook, the Board of Health New Zealand will be replaced with a Commissioner, Health Minister Dr Shane Reti announced today.  “The previous government’s botched health reforms have created significant financial challenges at Health NZ that, without ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Minister to speak at Australian Space Forum

    Minister for Space and Science, Innovation and Technology Judith Collins will travel to Adelaide tomorrow for space and science engagements, including speaking at the Australian Space Forum.  While there she will also have meetings and visits with a focus on space, biotechnology and innovation.  “New Zealand has a thriving space ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Climate Change Minister to attend climate action meeting in China

    Climate Change Minister Simon Watts will travel to China on Saturday to attend the Ministerial on Climate Action meeting held in Wuhan.  “Attending the Ministerial on Climate Action is an opportunity to advocate for New Zealand climate priorities and engage with our key partners on climate action,” Mr Watts says. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Oceans and Fisheries Minister to Solomons

    Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones is travelling to the Solomon Islands tomorrow for meetings with his counterparts from around the Pacific supporting collective management of the region’s fisheries. The 23rd Pacific Islands Forum Fisheries Committee and the 5th Regional Fisheries Ministers’ Meeting in Honiara from 23 to 26 July ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Government launches Military Style Academy Pilot

    The Government today launched the Military Style Academy Pilot at Te Au rere a te Tonga Youth Justice residence in Palmerston North, an important part of the Government’s plan to crackdown on youth crime and getting youth offenders back on track, Minister for Children, Karen Chhour said today. “On the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Nine priority bridge replacements to get underway

    The Government has welcomed news the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) has begun work to replace nine priority bridges across the country to ensure our state highway network remains resilient, reliable, and efficient for road users, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.“Increasing productivity and economic growth is a key priority for the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Update on global IT outage

    Acting Prime Minister David Seymour has been in contact throughout the evening with senior officials who have coordinated a whole of government response to the global IT outage and can provide an update. The Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet has designated the National Emergency Management Agency as the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • New Zealand, Japan renew Pacific partnership

    New Zealand and Japan will continue to step up their shared engagement with the Pacific, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says.    “New Zealand and Japan have a strong, shared interest in a free, open and stable Pacific Islands region,” Mr Peters says.    “We are pleased to be finding more ways ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • New infrastructure energises BOP forestry towns

    New developments in the heart of North Island forestry country will reinvigorate their communities and boost economic development, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones visited Kaingaroa and Kawerau in Bay of Plenty today to open a landmark community centre in the former and a new connecting road in ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • 'Pacific Futures'

    President Adeang, fellow Ministers, honourable Diet Member Horii, Ambassadors, distinguished guests.    Minasama, konnichiwa, and good afternoon, everyone.    Distinguished guests, it’s a pleasure to be here with you today to talk about New Zealand’s foreign policy reset, the reasons for it, the values that underpin it, and how it ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

Page generated in The Standard by Wordpress at 2024-07-27T01:41:19+00:00