How To Get There 5/5/19

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1. Robert Guyton 1

   5 May 2019 at 8:38 am

   Autumn in Riverton has been the kindest I can remember and it hasn't broken for winter yet; the grape leaves are still attached to the vines, though they're well coloured-up, as are the usually long-since-fallen leaves of the silver birch. Corn cobs continue to swell and ripen on stalks and the Renette de Canada apples remain in place, unshaken from the tree despite the leaves that frame them turning red, orange and yellow, as do the fruits on the Adam's Pearmain and Merton Russet. The fly agarics have popped up, displayed their parasols and faded without suffering the usual damage from wind-tossed twigs from the birch under which they grow, as the wind has barely touched the district, the autumn having been calmer than ever, with hardly a breath to clear the trees of their autumnal displays. It's all very lovely; best ever really, but very, very odd.
   • WeTheBleeple 1.1

     5 May 2019 at 10:03 am

     I just went for my annual fungal foray this morning , about a month later than normal, and still found it species poor (not cold enough). I really should not have timed my foray with duck season.

     But yes, it is atypical weather. The ocean warmth has extended summer considerably and there is a 'faux spring' happening post-drought.

     The drought was a stressor (instead of winter) and now some things are flowering for the second time in a year in these spring-like conditions.

     Someone was telling me about all your currants yesterday. An abundance all through the place… I planted three this year, two died and the third has just sat. We're not equipped for those wee treasures, but my bananas are producing another bunch.

     Got four new propagules yesterday – California sunflower cutting, Jerusalem artichoke tuber, tea seeds, and a black walnut. This man had a black walnut root system with a high cropping walnut grafted on top. So he's getting income/production while a small fortune gathers underground. Tree had a 12 inch girth on it already. Amazing stuff.

     I bet if I was in Riverton, I'd think it was cold.
     • Robert Guyton 1.1.1

       5 May 2019 at 10:14 am

       You be warm, as I am, thanks to your woollen lumberjack shirt and trousers.

       Our fungi are presenting beautifully, thanks to some overnight rains.

       I was given a stalk of Mexican tree daisy recently, and have that in the ground;

       http://www.terrain.net.nz/friends-of-te-henui-group/trees-exotic-botanical-names-m-to-q/montanoa-bipinnatifida-mexican-tree-daisy.html

       It's unknown and untried down here. I expect it to thrive 🙂

       We were alerted to a new ribes yesterday. It's growing "locally" and we are making enquiries about securing some cuttings. It's one I've never heard of before, so excitement levels are high. I'll let you know if we succeed.

       You have Camelia sinensis seeds? Good fortune. I’m expecting rooted cuttings from a friend in the north. Tea is one plant not seen in the south, but I’m for trying it.
       I sowed seeds of Decaisnea insignis a few days ago.
       https://www.kew.org/read-and-watch/sweet-taste-dead-mans-finger
       • WeTheBleeple 1.1.1.1

         5 May 2019 at 11:27 am

         How could an article on Dead Man's Finger not include a picture they're so cool…

         https://www.fruitsinfo.com/dead-man-fingers.php

         New plants bring promise for the future.

         You can look forward to funky blue fruits, I can look forward to…

         "Caution – because they contain 'resistant starch' – Jerusalem Artichokes are a great promoter of flatulence in some individuals."

         and then

         “The fruit husks from black walnut are used to make a yellow dye and the seed is used in candy making, abrasive cleaning products and explosives.”

         So, that’s two lots of potential explosives to fight climate change with. 😀
         • Robert Guyton 1.1.1.1.1

           5 May 2019 at 1:18 pm

           I'm Jumping Jack Flash and it's a gas, gas, gas!
2. Jenny - How to get there? 2

   5 May 2019 at 8:55 am

   There is no such thing as bad soldiers, only bad generals

   Napoleon

   Humanity’s greatest strength as a species, is our ability to work together, to co-operate. As individuals human beings are pretty powerless.

   It is a fact that any great human task worth doing takes teamwork. whether, it is building a house, or building a road, or crossing an ocean, it all takes teamwork.

   And teamwork requires leadership,

   The greatest task that humanity has ever had to undertake is stopping climate change This will require the biggest collective team effort of all time.

   But why are we not starting? Why do our emissions keep going up relentlessly year after year? (NZ included)..

   The failure of leadership.

   https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/20/our-leaders-are-ignoring-global-warming-to-the-point-of-criminal-negligence-its-unforgivable

   ….The problem – and it’s an existential threat both profound and perverse – is that those who lead us and have power over our shared destiny are ignoring global warming to the point of criminal negligence. Worse than that, their policies, language, patronal obligations and acts of bad faith are poisoning us, training citizens to accept the prospect of inexorable loss, unstoppable chaos, certain doom. Business as usual is robbing people of hope, white-anting the promise of change. That’s not just delinquent, it’s unforgivable…..

   There are the exceptions that prove the rule. These are the climate change Churchills, Greta Thunberg, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Bernie Sanders It is their rarity and outsider status that proves the general rule.

   https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/04/17/bernie-sanders-raises-bar-even-further-climate-vow-ban-fracking-all-new-fossil-fuel?fbclid=IwAR3WpP7HJDztCOfCRxhKMZRipy73xyarsSQKQE1hRxrE7pf4kRWeUw53xA8

   Bernie Sanders Raises the Bar Even Further on Climate With Vow to Ban Fracking, All New Fossil Fuel Projects

   That is exactly the kind of leadership we need if we hope to stop the worst impacts of climate change.”
   • Jenny - How to get there? 2.1

     5 May 2019 at 9:09 am

     Leadership II

     If you thought leadership was not important then you haven't been paying attention.

     https://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/esmagazine/flight-shame-europe-sweden-a4120231.html

     ….The move away from air travel was spearheaded by teen activist Greta Thunberg, who single-handedly kicked off the student climate strikes after boycotting school once a week to raise awareness for climate change. Thunberg refuses to fly and travelled by train to the World Economic Forum in Davos and the climate summit in Poland, while 1500 delegates flew in by private jet….

     ….flygskam (or flight shame) is spreading across Europe

     Fears over climate change have led many to rethink the way they travel and, in Sweden, they've even invented a new word for the shame associated with flying….

     …..The Swedes meanwhile have wholeheartedly embraced their rail network. SJ, Sweden’s national rail service, reported a record 32 million customers last year. The company attributes “the big interest in climate-smart travel” to its unprecedented growth…..

     "flygskam"

     “tagskryt”

     "lentohapea"

     The Dutch "vliegschaamte" and the German "flugscham"

     My personal favourite is “smygflyga” it has a certain unpleasant sounding ring to it, like the Norwegian "quisling"

     Maybe we could adopt this last into English, as in he was a dirty "smygflyga"

     Sure for people who have to travel overseas, where currently there is no alternative to air travel. But what about public figures here, who could and should also be giving a lead and setting an example? At least for domestic travel where there are alternatives, couldn't they also refuse to travel by air?

     In Greta Thunberg's words,

     "Is that really too much to ask?"
     • Robert Guyton 2.1.1

       5 May 2019 at 9:55 am

       Can someone decide to be a leader, Jenny, or does circumstance/fate/chance confer the role? Many try. What do you think causes a leader to emerge?
       • Jenny - How to get there? 2.1.1.1

         5 May 2019 at 10:36 am

         Hi Robert,

         Funny that you should ask.

         I think that I sort of, answered this question this morning;

         https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-04-05-2019/#comment-1613413

         Where I wrote:

         “……when our official leaders shrink back from taking the lead; No matter, that they have no rank, or title, or official position, the leadership will fall to the one who leads”
         • Jenny - How to get there? 2.1.1.1.1

           5 May 2019 at 10:44 am

           On another level, what this means is that just because you are junior coalition partner in a majority government, is no reason why you should not, or cannot, give a lead.
         • Robert Guyton 2.1.1.1.2

           5 May 2019 at 10:45 am

           Jenny – I get that you don't hold hope for our elected leaders to lead on the most important issue, but I'm still unsure of how you see leaders coming into being; are they "elected", do they self-elect, are they successful as leaders because they strive to lead, or simply because they get a lucky break? What do you think is the recipe for becoming a leader? Can you give an example?

           Thanks.
           • gsays 2.1.1.1.2.1

             5 May 2019 at 11:32 am

             'Scuse me for butting in… I see yourself as a leader, Robert.

             Your conversations with WTB and others, how you engage with our resident Tories etc.

             I mean no disrespect to yr work on the local council, voices like yours are important there, however don't under estimate the readership and influence e here on TS.

             Leaders are at all levels of society and they (if they are on to it) are looking around them for influences and examples to be encouraged, moulded and inspired by.

             I was a labourer for a builder and we have become close friends. He would be horrified, but he was and is a strong influence on me as a craftsman and parent.
             • Robert Guyton …

               5 May 2019 at 12:10 pm

               That is kind, gsays. Do you think our various leaders need to or are, connecting up in order to magnify their influence, or do you think (as Rupert Sheldrake suggests, that it will occur naturally, due to what he calls "morphic resonance" a kind of subtle sharing across time and space:

               https://www.sheldrake.org/videos/rupert-speaks-with-russell-brand

               (I recommend this interview)
               • gsays …

                 5 May 2019 at 2:40 pm

                 You're welcome.

                 I will check out the interview later this evening.

                 I am a gentle anarchist and I feel leaders will be doing their thing passively or naturally. Others will be drawn to them or recall their example as circumstances change.

                 I think these folk are leaders by default, meeting a need or filling a vacuum as opposed to seeing power or influence.

                 The builder friend is fond of quoting his Dad- "Don't look to Wellington for leadership".

                 These are interesting times and are going to get more interestinger. In ways we haven't got our heads round yet.

                 Another chum of mine, a natural leader,is starting to really walk his talk, facilitating young males and their rites of passage and disconnecting from the money go round.

                 This is a link to a Shane Mulhall presentation on leadership. 'Lead, follow or get out of the way'.

                 He is the leader of The School of Practical Philosophy in the U.K. https://practicalphilosophy.ie/recording/philosophy-leadership
               • gsays …

                 5 May 2019 at 9:51 pm

                 Great conversation. A lot felt familiar to me. Morphic resonance seems to be an expression for an experience I have had with a small group of people who have been in profound stillness several times together e.g. meditation and or contemplation. An unstated knowing. Love.
           • Jenny - How to get there? 2.1.1.1.2.2

             5 May 2019 at 1:12 pm

             “We are in a crisis, we need to act like we are in a crisis”. Greta Thunberg.

             “I get that you don't hold hope for our elected leaders to lead on the most important issue….” Robert Guyton

             Hi Robert I do hold out hope that our elected leaders will lead. Otherwise I wouldn't keep prodding them to do so.

             “What do you think is the recipe for becoming a leader? Can you give an example?”; Robert Guyton

             There are numerous examples I can give you.

             Even from my own life experience; Many, many years ago, when I was active in the union movement, a top paid functionary in one of the biggest private sector unions in the country came to see me. And asked me. "How do you get so many headlines in the media, when we can barely get a mention?

             I replied, "It's simple, you just have to do something"

             At the risk of offending him, I could have said more, I could have said, To become a real leader and not just a functionary with the title of leader, you have to do something. You have to take action, And by so doing, give a lead.

             Another more recent example; The Mayor of Liverpool, announced that he would put his body on the line to attend an anti fascist rally to stop Nazis marching through his city.

             His leadership and high profile encouraged many others to attend, making the counter protest so huge that the fascists never even attempted their provocative march.

             https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-04-05-2019/#comment-1613246

             This is leadership. If the Mayor had not given this lead, it is quite likely that the counter protest would have been much smaller, and instead of being peaceful, would have degenerated into a violent street brawl with the nazis.

             Another example, by another elected leader, is that of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez who joined a climate protest outside Nancy Pelosi's office. Despite being a junior 'Freshman' in congress, Cortez's leadership is changing the whole Democratic Party.

             Then there is the example of the opposition Labour MPs in the 1980s who took to the water in Wellington Harbour to protest nuclear warships. Their leadership encouraged the anti-nuclear movement which became so huge, and the social pressure so great, that it moved two National Government MPs Mike Minogue and Marylyn Waring to cross the floor to vote with the opposition.

             The takeaway lesson is this; We need to take action;
             (if necessary by being prepared to our bodies and personal comfort on the line).

             To quote Greta Thunberg, 'If we* don't act like we are in a crisis, how will people know we are in a crisis?'

             *(especially if our Green Party Leaders don't act like we are in a crisis).
             • Robert Guyton …

               5 May 2019 at 1:21 pm

               So, act? Is that the way to lead?

               Do what, exactly?
               • Jenny - How to get there? …

                 5 May 2019 at 4:26 pm

                 “So, act? Is that the way to lead?”

                 Yes.

                 “Do what, exactly?”

                 There are a number of things: the Green Party MPs could do, that is if they wanted to. The Green MPs could put up a private members bill to repeal the Anadarko Amendment to the RMA, which makes it illegal to protest against all new off shore oil and gas exploration. And, let us do the rest.

                 Or they could put a bill in the ballot, to remove the amendment to the RMA that makes it illegal to raise climate change as an objection in planning hearings for consents for new coalmines, and fracking operations.

                 The Green Party say they will do none of these things.

                 In my talks with Green Party MPs the message I have been given, is that they won't be putting up any members bills on climate change, because it might upset the National Party, who they are trying to get to sign on to the Zero Carbon Bill. It seems that the Parliamentary Green Party MPs have put all their eggs in one basket, so as to speak. I only hope that it is worth it. However the Zero Carbon legislation will have no immediate agreement to cut emissions, nor will it ban the digging of new coal mines, nor will it stop coal imports from Indonesia, (If coal has to be mined at the very least it should be done here). PKE imports will continue. In fact pretty much business as usual.

                 The Zero Carbon legislation will set up an advisory body with no statutory powers.

                 Alongside this rubber chicken I thought that the very least the Green Party could do is set a positive example in their own organisation. See below.
                 • Robert Guyton …

                   5 May 2019 at 5:11 pm

                   Yes, Jenny, I see.

                   Here's my submission to the EPA on the OMV proposal to drill oil nd gas in the Great South Basin, fyi.

                   Accepting that, “OMV GSB’s marine discharge consent application is limited to the discharge of harmful substances from the hazardous and non-hazardous deck drains aboard a drill rig”,I know that this issue “de minimis” will not tax the panel, nor will it threaten the proposal by OMV to disturb the sea bed off-shore of Otago and Southland and release from secure sequestration, the oil and gas resource that lies there. However, this being the only opportunity for members of the general public to express their thoughts and feelings about that proposal, I am bound to say that the notion that it’s safe to release oil and gas from where it’s safely sequestered beneath the sea bed, into an atmosphere that’s already overloaded with greenhouse gases, is insane.

                   That’s not to say the people involved are insane; they are like most of us; captured by the insane notion and unable to say no to the industry that’s promoting it. We, the public, can though, say no; the proposal is insane, unsafe and threatens our shared future. As commissioners considering the application through the exceptionally narrow window of “harmful substances from the deck drains” you are bound to keep within that prescription, but as humans, as decision makers, good decision makers, you must feel uncomfortable at being asked to progress a proposal that essentially threatens the lives of your community; your friends, your children and your grandchildren, if you are so fortunate, as I am, to have some.

                   The minute quantities of toxic materials that may be washed from the decks of an oil rig squatting in the Great South Basin is the very least of our concerns. The release of billions of tonnes of hydrocarbons into the atmosphere, through extracting, refining and on-selling to customers who will burn it in their factories and vehicles, is truly a crime against humanity and if the industry that is proposing such a crime had a heart and a soul, it would feel deeply ashamed and would cease its life-destroying behaviour, but it does not, it is a body corporate and lacks those essential human characteristics. You though, commissioners; parents, grandparents, do have hearts, souls and consciences. Please make good decisions when faced with the demands of an industry that can’t.

                   Robert Guyton
                   • greywarshark …

                     5 May 2019 at 5:22 pm

                     Thank you Robert G for that submission putting forward the practical to the Commissioners and referring to kindness, to the living humans and animals. I don't think anyone could have said it better.
                 • Sacha …

                   5 May 2019 at 6:55 pm

                   "The Zero Carbon legislation will set up an advisory body with no statutory powers."

                   Do you have any links about that? The UK body they are copying has powers beyond any government.
                   • Jenny - How to get there? …

                     5 May 2019 at 7:19 pm

                     Climate Commission

                     The Zero Carbon Act will establish an independent Climate Commission, consisting of 6 – 10 experts appointed by Parliament. The Commission has two main functions:

                     1) providing expert advice on targets, policies and climate risks;
                     2) holding the Government to account.

                     As flexible as a rubber chicken:

                     …..It sets out legally-mandated outcomes and process, without prescribing specific policies. It combines long-term clarity on policy direction with flexibility in its delivery.

                     https://www.zerocarbonact.nz/zca-summary/
                   • Sacha …

                     5 May 2019 at 8:07 pm

                     Ah. That is Gen Zero's lobbying site about the law, not actual govt policy.

                     Their proposal is explicitly based on the UK law: https://www.zerocarbonact.nz/international-case-studies/
                 • Rosemary McDonald …

                   5 May 2019 at 8:41 pm

                   And this evening….https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/388521/maori-disappointed-ancestral-land-up-for-tender-for-oil-and-gas-drilling-in-taranaki

                   Former Green Party candidate for Te Tai Hauāuru, Jack McDonald, is gutted with the offer, which covers his own tribal lands.

                   "It is a slap in the face that this so-called progressive government, which is meant to be taking a new approach to climate change and a new approach to Māori-Crown relations, would actually continue with this approach."

                   The government aims to reduce New Zealand's emissions to net zero by 2050.

                   Te Tai Hauāuru MP Adrian Rurawhe said he understood their concerns.

                   "I sympathise with them but until we can transition to a low emissions economy, we are basically going to have to live with the situation we are in."
                   • Sacha …

                     6 May 2019 at 8:57 am

                     "until we can transition to a low emissions economy"

                     Gee, wonder what sorts of action will achieve that.
     • Robert Guyton 2.1.2

       5 May 2019 at 10:48 am

       Oh, and btw, I vowed, following a very recent domestic flight, never to step aboard an aircraft again (bar emergency, God forbid). I'm an infrequent flyer anyway, but that's that from me.
       • Jenny - How to get there? 2.1.2.1

         5 May 2019 at 2:25 pm

         If only we had more leaders like you, Robert, prepared to give a lead and set an example like this..

         What is the most important thing that we can do as individuals to fight climate change? is go vegan and not fly…”George Monbiot

         “People say it is an abstract threat…” Greta Thunberg

         “We need to do something, and act as if we are in a crisis, because otherwise people won’t understand that we are in a crisis Greta Thunberg

         Trains not cars. boats not planes

         The importance of leadership III

         “There is no such thing as bad soldiers, only bad generals” Napoleon

         The missing ingredient in the struggle to combat climate change, is leadership.

         In my experience in the union movement, the difference between a good union leader and a bad one, was that a bad union leader always blamed setbacks on the membership.

         It is no good us agreeing with such leaders when they say, it is because we are all too greedy, to consumerist, to careless that we are failing. That the problem is all our fault. And that it is up to us as individuals to change our ways. In my opinion that is not leadership, that is an abandonment of leadership.

         You can change your own personal behaviour, but how discouraging it is to forgo using your car and cycling to work on a rainy day, past factories and power stations burning coal gas and fuel oil flat out, and past yet another motorway widening project. Or waiting at a drafty bus stop for an infrequent and overcrowded bus. It won't be long before you are back in the comfort of your private car. (and if you are a normal person, of average means, it will be a second hand ICE vehicle)

         Our efforts as individuals will make little difference, what will really make a difference is a collective society wide effort, and such a collective effort requires leadership. There is no way of getting away from it.

         If we are to bring about collective change, we need leadership that can inspire that change, leaders with confidence and determination, leaders with the courage to give a lead, leaders willing to take a risk and go out in front, leaders with faith in the people.

         Leaders with the strength and will to face down the powerful fossil fuel lobby.

         ,Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, and Greta Thunberg, demonstrate the sort of inspiring, and positive, outspoken leadership that the Green Party could provide in this country.

         I am positive that they are capable of it.

         From our Green Party MPs, through to our Prime Minister; all of them, from the highest to the lowest, need to become the very best leaders that they can be. The science demands it.

         Leadership III

         Why are our Green MPs still flying?

         With human beings, perception is everything.

         As a way of giving a lead; One simple thing Green MPs should consider,
         ‘Stop flying’

         How can anyone take the danger of climate change seriously, when we see our leaders, especially our Green Party MPs and leaders, flying?

         Now I am not saying that our leaders should stop flying altogether, but that they need to severely curtail their flying.. Domestic air travel should be limited strictly to the Prime Minister as head of state. And for all other MPs, only when they need to travel internationally.

         Grandma, what did you do about climate change when you were Prime Minister?'

         'Hello Darling, what a great question'

         Way back in 2019, when the Green Party, in response to the climate emergency, on principle banned all internal flights for the their MPs, as the leader of the country, I had to act immediately to prevent our parliamentary ally, the Green Party, becoming isolated, or put at any disadvantage, compared to the climate change denying parties.

         My first response as Prime Minister, was to pledge my party's full support for a Private Members Bill brought by the Green Party, to legislate to ban all domestic air travel for all government and opposition MPs.

         (As part of this package, and to win over our other government ally, the New Zealand First Party, in talks with the Finance Minister Grant Robertson we agreed to release emergency funding toward a New Zealand First initiative to double track the rail connection to Northland).

         Combined, these initiatives became a leading example to the world, and marked the beginning of the world wide switch away from commercial aviation, towards surface travel that you see today.

         I also supported legislation to move the subsidy for free domestic air travel, into supplying all MPs, (both government and opposition), with the latest video conferencing and IT suites, to put them more in touch with their constituents and each other without the need to travel as much.

         Happy birthday darling, I hope you like the mini-AI electric train set I bought you.

         
         
         
         • Robert Guyton 2.1.2.1.1

           5 May 2019 at 2:37 pm

           I think I've joined your chorus, Jenny.
         • greywarshark 2.1.2.1.2

           5 May 2019 at 3:00 pm

           Asking the Green pollies to stop flying – is that kind and practical?

           That is something that we could run past all our consicerations.

           How can they manage all the things in their political and personal lives if they don't fly as the other pollies are doing. It would put them behind straight away and it is hard enough for them to get their policies going. It is great to see things clearly, expound theories about them, but how can the message and the results be best achieved.

           I think what we could do is not fly ourselves if possible. Not go on a trip that isn't to family, think about whether you should go to the Gold Coast again and go to the Cooks. (Have to fly there, but it keeps their transport options open.) Only go skiing once if that is in your price bracket. Then you give a donation to the Greens of that part of your holiday travel. Can you stay near to your city and enjoy part of it that you don't normally see?

           But don't expect our Green leaders to paddle their canoes to work and still be able to make the difference that we are hoping for. They try to make their bit of change and that's what counts.
           • Jenny - How to get there? 2.1.2.1.2.1

             5 May 2019 at 5:50 pm

             Of course it's practical. For most of our parliament's existence surface travel was the only way for MPs to get to Wellington, and over infrastructure much worse than today. And for much of that time MPs never even had the most basic telecommunications that we now take for granted

             Is it kind. No.

             It will be hard and will require discipline and self sacrifice, and hard lobbying to abolish free domestic air travel for the whole of parliament.

             This is what taking action means.

             To paraphrase JFK, "We don't do these things because they are easy, we do these things because they are hard."

             Will it be harder than the experience of millions of people suffering some of the worst current effects of climate change?
             Not even to mention the even worse coming effects.

             No,

             Talking of kindness, altering the climate is not kind.

             https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/02/world/asia/india-cyclone-fani.html
             • Poission …

               5 May 2019 at 6:03 pm

               Bit of hardship coming right up.

               https://nzgb.redspider.co.nz/

               wouldnt take much to initiate a brownout north of taupo. a small sunspot would do it.

               http://spaceweathergallery.com/indiv_upload.php?upload_id=153328

               http://www.spaceweather.com/images2019/04may19/brownout.png?PHPSESSID=nc11pgo0lgke5eemu6in0ku522
             • greywarshark …

               5 May 2019 at 9:32 pm

               Trouble is you are looking at a world-wide phenomenon that we all need to do something about ie limiting omissions leadiong to climate change.

               Then you say our politicians who are the people who need to lead the way on this and get us all going, and make some hard changes from a situation where they have always had a slim majority, should be put on the back foot because it is more important to be moral, than it is to actually do anything practical.

               It doesn't compute Jenny. But I guess that doesn't matter to you as you are too high-minded to see the problem is at the end of everyone's nose. Slowly we are changing but still the noes have a big say and won't change till the pollies say yay, let's do it and get the numbers in parliament. But they will be stranded in Waikikamukau waiting for their pedal-car to be repaired.
               • Pat …

                 5 May 2019 at 9:38 pm

                 somebody astute said winning slowly is losing…or words to that effect

                 https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/bill-mckibben-winning-slowly-is-the-same-as-losing-198205/
               • Jenny - How to get there? …

                 6 May 2019 at 7:34 am

                 A lot to unpack there Gray.

                 Yes, climate change is a world wide phenomenon, and yes we all have to do something. Couldn't agree more.But this still doesn't negate the role that leadership plays and must play.

                 Yes I do say that our politicians need to give leadership. Why is that so strange? Surely that is their job. Just like we can't all be firemen we can't all be leaders. To achieve society wide tasks we all have had to specialise. Some are lawyers, some are Drs, some are factory workers, and some are political leaders. A politician who doesn't lead, who doesn't fight for their leadership, (even from a "slim minority position") is not a politician, they are a time server.

                 The example I often use is Winston Churchill, who was a sole MP from a minor party, (often called 'Winston Churchill's Constitutional Party 'from the fact that it was the most minor party possible Winston Churchill being their only MP.)

                 But from the moment he gained his one party seat in the British parliament for his Constitution Party, Churchill never stopped being a leader, or giving a lead about the dangers of German Nazism. And eventually won over the whole establishment.

                 The same for Alexandria Ocasio Cortez a junior freshman in congress whose leadership is changing the whole Democratic Party.

                 Then there is the example of Greta Thunberg who holds no elected position but has displayed leadership.

                 Why should I expect less from our Green Party MPs?
                 • Jenny - How to get there? …

                   6 May 2019 at 7:42 am

                   Great leaders have often led from a minority position.

                   In answer to an earlier question by Robert Guyton over where leaders come from

                   ‘Cometh the hour cometh the man/woman’

                   https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-meaning-of-cometh-the-hour-cometh-the-man
   • Incognito 2.2

     5 May 2019 at 11:04 am

     What kind of leadership are we after? The old-school patriarchal and hierarchical one with its chain-of-command from top to bottom (e.g. as in the military)? Or a more liquid one where the lead is shared between various individuals, one at the time or several simultaneously? The important thing is to build, maintain, and grow momentum. Not all this is easy when the current system is based on old models of power that are legally enshrined and we all are conditioned to follow unquestionably. Think about it, when people have a complaint they almost automatically ask “who’s your manager?”. This is one side of the coin; the vertical structures are inefficient and slow and give people only limited responsibility, which kills (off) initiative and innovative thinking and acting.
     • Robert Guyton 2.2.1

       5 May 2019 at 11:16 am

       I agree entirely, incognito and ask how to we foster such a development? Do we sit around twiddling our thumbs waiting for that organic process to spit out some leadership network or do we somehow foster one (or several). Friendly talk with groups of people might be the way, I reckon.
       • Sacha 2.2.1.1

         5 May 2019 at 11:32 am

         Leadership is a social function that engages people towards a shared purpose. That won't happen simply by people having friendly chats.
         • Robert Guyton 2.2.1.1.1

           5 May 2019 at 11:45 am

           How then, Sacha, does it happen and will it happen??
           • Sacha 2.2.1.1.1.1

             5 May 2019 at 11:47 am

             Part of leadership is fostering leadership. Different ways in different contexts. How did young people make the global climate school strike happen?
             • Robert Guyton …

               5 May 2019 at 12:21 pm

               Are you saying that leaders must foster leadership (among younger leaders-to-be)? I certainly agree, but ask, who are the leaders doing the fostering and what are they doing while they wait for the new leaders to "come through"?
               • Sacha …

                 5 May 2019 at 1:11 pm

                 If anything, we are seeing young people fostering leadership in older ones. Leadership is the opposite of waiting.
                 • Robert Guyton …

                   5 May 2019 at 1:23 pm

                   By their actions, you mean? Or from their words? How are those younger leaders fostering leadership in their elders? Shaming them, advising them, confronting them, modelling courage, modelling impatience? I'm just trying to plumb the depths of what you are saying and meaning, Sacha.
                   • Sacha …

                     5 May 2019 at 1:36 pm

                     Creating social permission to act with urgency.
                   • Pat …

                     5 May 2019 at 8:45 pm

                     @ Robert below…..how indeed…what is occurring is the road to widespread social permission I suspect…unfortunately it is a slow process when haste is required
                 • Pat …

                   5 May 2019 at 1:45 pm

                   i agree about creating social permission to act as a form of leadership but sadly I suspect that permission is only provided currently by a vocal minority and are treated as such by the status quo….safely patronised but otherwise ignored
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     5 May 2019 at 2:06 pm

                     How can social permission be created, I'm wondering?

                     Letters to the editor?

                     Organising a march?

                     Speaking at a reputable event (but going "off-topic"?

                     Soap-boxing?

                     Going door-to-door?

                     Which, if any, is the most effective and should we/when will we be deciding which to do, how to do it and who will do it?
   • Janet 2.3

     5 May 2019 at 11:29 am

     “The greatest task that humanity has ever had to undertake is stopping climate change"

     Microsoft is adding to this problem by making a whole lot of otherwise perfectly good computers obsolete by stopping support of Windows 7.

     Why? For their own continuing financial gain.

     It’s time companies, like Microsoft, did their bit to mitigate the waste and unnecessary production they are causing.

     Taking responsibility for one’s own “mark” on the world, be it an individual or a great company like Microsoft, is one kind of leadership needed: the setting the example kind. When this does not happen then the people representing us in government must step up and take control – must lead.

     Right now all over NZ bigger and better roads are being built which makes me think we are going in the wrong direction entirely and ask, do we have the right leaders to turn climate change around?
     • Janet 2.3.1

       5 May 2019 at 12:44 pm

       Have just spent 6 weeks as a “tourist” in my own country, NZ.

       If this country is really going to do something fundamental about halting climate change tourism should not be developed any further. Only 15 % of the people walking the Milford and the Routeburn tracks with me were New Zealanders. They all had to have flown here.

       Where is “The Leader “ that is going face this one because the longer it is left the more dependant NZ towns are going to become on international tourism. It was awesome , but scary, to see how many SI towns are benefiting from overseas tourism right now!
     • greywarshark 2.3.2

       5 May 2019 at 2:05 pm

       The whole wealthy capitalist regime that has built up around microsoft and all its competitors is based on maintaining primacy in the market. One of these big companies too large to fail can be down the road in a few years if they can't produce the next big thing that will attract or keep customers.

       The people can't be left alone to choose whether they will get the new stuff either. The copper wire system that has been serving us for years and on which many new forays into communication have been grown is to be replaced, everyone is doing it, why aren't you is the approach. Do it now while we are offering a special price.

       Binding us into the new is even seen in schools. Kids aren't writing they are typing. What is happening there? They are being readied to go into the technological hegemony; they will have to be prepared to relearn stuff all the time to keep up with product changes. Getting away from the new; it's impossible when the company decides it won't support the old model any more.

       And unnoticed in its spread, is the fact that a machine is being pushed in front of us all the time so that we can't just use our own resources, our own energy. At school it is a computer instead of simple pencil and paper, the basics. On the footpath you can't walk in freedom; give way to the machine – the bicycle, the mobility cart, the scooters.

       A revolution in thinking and doing would wipe out lots of jobs and change everything, maybe for the worse in the short run. But cool reasoning says things can't go on at the frenetic pace as at present. Listen to Lisa Owen on Radionz, the rate of speed her speech flows at, the reports from sports coaches, managers, players – stressed, fast, on the treadmill. It's funny and authentic when Jonathan Pie does it, but when it is ordinary people talking about everyday things, it's uncomfortable. They show they are embedded in a demanding, controlling economic cult.
       • Janet 2.3.2.1

         5 May 2019 at 2:26 pm

         "The copper wire system that has been serving us for years and on which many new forays into communication have been grown is to be replaced, everyone is doing it, why aren't you is the approach. Do it now while we are offering a special price."

         I see it as a basic civil defense system already in place. I pay the PENALTY for not letting go of my landline phone. It maddened me when my neighbours – rural district- decided to just go cell because I have to now pay to ring them.
         • greywarshark 2.3.2.1.1

           5 May 2019 at 2:35 pm

           I'm with you there Janet. Basic civil defence system is one of the things I see it useful for. Not to be sneezed at. (Why anyone would I don't understand.!) Every good people system for the public has to be thrown out!
     • Rosemary McDonald 2.3.3

       5 May 2019 at 2:17 pm

       Microsoft is adding to this problem by making a whole lot of otherwise perfectly good computers obsolete by stopping support of Windows 7.

       Probably the best operating system ever.

       I understand that there are a considerable number of high tech expensive pieces of scientific kit that run on Windows 7 which could also be rendered obsolete.

       Some of it is profit driven, but I suspect that later versions give Microsoft more access/control over our gear.

       When this machine folds, I'll be stuffed…
       • greywarshark 2.3.3.1

         5 May 2019 at 2:47 pm

         Pigeon post Rosemary? I'm not joking. We might bring into our reading some stories of doughty people who stubbornly retained their own resources and individuality. Not the individuality of doing your own thing and here are the fingers at anyone dissenting. But not taking on the message that everything they do and try is old-fashioned and should be put aside.

         I was very interested in reading about Crete and their staunch ways and stickability and determination. Tough. I'm not, but realising that is probably a step towards improvement. Christopher McDougall in Natural Born Heroes is the book.

         Here is a short video where Christopher spells out three things that Cretans live by – he is full of enthusiasm and it rubs off.
     • One Two 2.3.4

       5 May 2019 at 3:21 pm

       Indeed, Janet…

       There are gaping holes behind some of the comments around climate change…

       Tech companies, business partners and subsidiaries, like all of the major industries have forward roadmaps for delivery of products decades into the future…climate change is not a feature of the deployment roadmaps…in fact… given the drive towards technocracy it is arguable that the tech/telco/media/entertainment/consumerables related industry are working actively against climate necessary objectives, and driving forward beckoning climate change towards humanity at rapidly increasing pace…

       The entire architecture behind 5G / IoT / IoM / IoE et al….relies on orders of magnitude expansion in environmentally and biologically damaging technology to envelop the entire globe from land, air, space…

       Pretending the rationale behind technocracy is altruistic to save the world from climate disaster…the very nature of the requirements, which would take many decades, using unfathomable amounts of energy to design, build and maintain… involving highly complex environments ultimately controlled and managed by AI…so that machines can communicate with machines….(where do the humans, animals, insects biosphere feature)…

       Would essentially be torching the planet…to save it…(if that is even a consideration)…
3. cleangreen 3

   5 May 2019 at 10:24 am

   A Mayor in North Auckland is calling for swift action on climate change as he has a 1000 km coastline up there now in jeopardy of the rising sea levels, as most areas there is now below sea level says this RNZ bulletin at 6 am today. . 

   https://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018693617

   Pity he didn’t speak up years ago eh?
   • Jenny - How to get there? 3.1

     5 May 2019 at 10:46 am

     “The time is always right to do what is right.”

     Martin Luther King
   • greywarshark 3.2

     5 May 2019 at 11:07 am

     He/she wouldn't have got elected if bringing up that outside-the-square sort of thing. At that time it would have been a precautionary measure, looked as if it would cost in rates to do something and limited business opportunities, and have drawn unwelcome attention from insurance companies etc. Ongoing ripple effect.

     The Mayor-in-waiting would have recognised it being unwelcome but might have gone about introducing it into at least the fringes of local discussion. Better to keep schtum and as Mayor introduce the matter into planning papers with public consultation, and get official maps drawn up showing areas at risk by the government.
4. cleangreen 4

   5 May 2019 at 10:36 am

   This is a 'Notice' of a press release sent yesterday from our Napier NGO of 'how to get there.'.

   http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/AK1905/S00105/napier-truck-gridlock-residents-call-for-user-pays.htm
   Napier truck gridlock residents call for “user pays”
   Saturday, 4 May 2019, 3:15 pm
   Press Release: Citizens Environmental Advocacy Centre
   “Napier truck gridlock residents call for “user pays” for sleep disruption”.

   4th May 2019.

   Press release by Citizens Environmental Advocacy Centre.

   Napier Port Board executives want to increase truck freight 187% by 2027 to feed an expanded Port service regionally, and are now offering to sell half the port to private investors.

   Napier Port has been publicly owned since the 1800’s by the taxpayers/citizens of HB, and are not being protected by this sale of their own asset now, financially or environmentally.

   But the Board Directors need to be aware that if it is sold to private investors, they (the private investors) will become financially responsible for all environmental mitigation including solving the community residential truck noise emissions that cause sleep disruption of Port traffic, due to the RMA and the “user Pays” principal.

   So we need to be considered by the Port Board Directors now as to the environmental impacts that will impact upon the community of an almost two hundred percent increase they we seeking of sending truck traffic into their residential zones and what it will have upon our citizens living alongside the roading network to and from the Napier Port.

   The truck noise can affect any property within a sphere of 340 m radius of a truck road, engineers have advised.

   Many issues have been raised by Napier residents since the year 2000 when Napier City Council well respected Mayor Allan Dick QSM offered the Napier community a “Napier heavy traffic public meeting” at the ‘Century Theatre’ to discuss and find resolutions to solve the problems of truck freight gridlock noise and sleep disruption problems arising then about truck noise and sleep disruption to their lives.

   This all truck gridlock problem occurred because since rail was run down by the last National Government under Jim Bolger and was privatised, most freight went onto roads carried by trucks since then.

   Now in 2019 the truck traffic has trebled since 2000 in Napier.

   Now since the Napier Port board directors want to increase truck traffic again by a whopping 187% by 2027, we need to seriously have a review the ‘health, safety and wellbeing’ of our own citizens living in Napier well before 2027 and make the “user pays” principal comply with their actions now.

   HBRC has previously posted their views on heavy truck traffic noise and air pollution issues in Napier in a report in 2003 when the HBRC Environmental Manager admitted then that the roading to the Port was planned in a time when QUOTE “Environmental considerations were less robust then than now, but there was no future in placing the blame but we need to mitigate to limit the effects on those residents”.

   So all local councils and ‘Port Board Directors’ must take great care especially HBRC who has been the administrator of Napier Port. so we reasonably must expect them to comply with RMA and other regulatory rules to protect our residential Communities health safety and wellbeing as they are required to do as a ‘regional territorial’ council, and also NCC also needs to step up here also as a local boundary governance Council for it’s citizens because when the Port was built in the 1880’s Napier City council was active in building the roads and rail to the Napier port then.

   Independent Environmental monitoring has been carried out.

   We as a community have the good fortune of having a local caring Environmental Monitoring Company involved here in a ‘public community project’ as they offered complimentary services of going out to monitor the truck noise levels when residents complain of ‘sleep disturbance’ .

   Recently this Environmental Monitoring Company has released under
   (Private & confidential) some sobering noise reports of truck noise levels now exceeding the ‘WHO guidelines for community noise’ that will cause ‘sleep disruption’ which is a serious health threat if prolonged, states World Health Organisation. (WHO) in section 3.4 “sleep disturbance” regards this as an ‘Industrial Activity’ which may produce low frequency harmful noise emissions and coupled with section 3.5 “Cardiovascular and Physiological Effects”

   https://infrastructure.planninginspectorate.gov.uk/document/2322958

   This can affect any property within a sphere of 340 m radius of a truck route in a “free field” environment, similar to that the Marine Parade residents often complained about until NCC forced those trucks to use other roading networks so this issue has reached the point where serious mitigation funding is needed to protect all residents affected by the truck gridlock noise issue in Napier.

   The independent Environmental Monitoring company that has produced the sobering report showing WHO ‘Guidelines for community noise’ truck noise have now been seriously exceeded.

   We are now requesting meetings with NZTA and other parties again and we may call for another “Napier Heavy Traffic Public Meeting” as it has been a very long 19ys since NCC produced in 2000 Public meeting and they need to replicate this with same care and resolution to those same problems today again.

   Interested parties who wish to become involved may send details to this email clean.air@xtra.co.nz

   Secretary.
   Citizens Environmental Advocacy Centre.
   Napier truck gridlock residents call for "user pays"
   • greywarshark 4.1

     5 May 2019 at 11:19 am

     Thinking Cleangreen, yours is an example of how far and hard NZrs have to fight against this neolib economic takeover with its white anting business model. This approach is what is taught as the 'right way' to develop and manage. The country isn't a nation, it is a location for business and profit making to the world; we aren't a State, we are in a state of disarray, dwindling and deteriorating, our logo the disappearing teeth-bared grin of Alice's Cheshire Cat.

     One of its distinguishing features is that from time to time its body disappears, the last thing visible being its iconic grin. (Makes me think of John Key's face somehow.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire_Cat

     How to get somewhere else? We have to look at what is needed and fight to get it done the right way, ie rail to Gisborne, sufficient for its coming needs from more export logs from the planned plantings organised by Shane Jones. Then put a toll on the highway for trucks so they have to think the economics of choice and pay to help alleviate the problems they cause for the people who live there.

     And then say, look at the possibility of floating logs out in rafts; would it be effective, how much pollution from bark etc that would fall to the seabed making it unhealthy for sea creatures.

     Think around the situation, include variables not just adopt spare economic models and the rest is ‘externalities – they can be brought into the sunlight.
     • cleangreen 4.1.1

       5 May 2019 at 12:07 pm

       Thanks greywarshark,

       Our NGO fought hard in 2003-4 to establish that Napier had a truck noise and air quality issue then when we worked alongside NIWA and water care services to establish that Napier truck routes like the HB Expressway did have a large air pollution problem then and then we had a ‘parliamentary Commissioner of Environment’ sent their experts up to mintor and observe the truck gridlock then, and helen Clark wrote a letter mto me as Secretary to offer to help, and the article that explained this was featured in the ‘Dominion Post’ under section A6 on March 10 2003 entitled "”Pollution regularly exceeds Guidelines”."

       Then in 2005 the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment wrote his report and that same report now sits on their sits entitled “HB Expressway Noise and air quality issues”."

       https://www.pce.parliament.nz/media/1515/hb-expressway.pdf

       We have gone around the block with Labour in the last Labour government in 2003 and suffered nine cruel years under 'Keysnomics' and now half way through the term of this next labour government we are still suffering worse than ever.
       • greywarshark 4.1.1.1

         5 May 2019 at 3:24 pm

         Cleangreen

         You and your working group of citizens are showing NZ what is needed. You understand your problems, the work has been done assessing them, and the need has been established for the remedial work. The citizens have shown responsibility and cost-efficiency and done the backgrounding – but up against neo liberal ideology that stands for nothing. After all Richard Prebble said he would sell our railway system for $1 didn't he? Correct me if I'm wrong but give me the reliable source for your opinion please.

         We have to expose the faults of the democracy we have been languishing under and acknowledge that we have as a country, had too much respect and too little interest in the standards and abilities of our politicians. We have got what we were willing to settle for, which was what suited individuals rather than building a strong economy. If they run the country as a business, and we are all shareholders, the results just don't meet reasonable expectations.
         • cleangreen 4.1.1.1.1

           5 May 2019 at 4:02 pm

           Yes Greywarshark , The results from the company conducting the environmental monitoring here has advised us that the results of the survey of residential truck low frequency noise levels are serious, but the results are subject to commercial sensitivity and marked "private and confidential but we can say that they have confirmed what the WHO "Guidelines for community noise has stated that the company needs to confirm if there is a presence considerable amount of "low frequency noise" being emitted from this truck freight activity. We wonder why NZTA has done "Due Diligence" with these commercial vehicles activities and the excessive amounts of ‘Low frequency noise levels that they emit when NZTA had gone to great pains to show us all how they go after truck brake and hitch compliance but not about noise emissions? Not good enough, and we hope Phil Twyford is reading this as he needs to get involved here.
   • Sacha 4.2

     5 May 2019 at 11:52 am

     This is a ‘notice’ of a press release sent from the Northland Urban Rural Mission NGO about ‘how to get there’. http://community.scoop.co.nz/2019/05/call-to-transform-a-broken-system-has-been-left-unanswered/

     The Report of the Welfare Expert Advisory Group (WEAG ) released today (May 3) called on Government to transform the broken welfare system. The Governments announcements today fall well short of doing that.“The call to transform a broken system has been left unanswered”

     The Report of the Welfare Expert Advisory Group (WEAG ) released today (May 3) called on Government to transform the broken welfare system. The Government’s announcements today fall well short of doing that.

     “While we have not yet heard any statements from the WEAG Chair Prof Cynthia Kiro, the Government’s response to the WEAG recommendations are underwhelming,” said NURM’s Community Development Worker Tim Howard

     The three specific Government responses to the Report are:

     * 263 more staff over four years, but just to get people into paid work (not to reduce case managers’ workloads so they could treat people more humanely)

     * lifting to some degree the abatement rates of amounts that beneficiaries could earn from work before having their benefits cut

     * the removal of the s70A sanctions (ie a benefit reduction regime) for (mainly) women who refuse to name their children’s father.

     A number of significant recommendations of the Report have not been taken up – like the recommendation to increase benefit levels by 47%. The Minister Carmel Sepuloni has said they would be “looking at a staged implementation of the report” and some uptake could happen “down the line”.

     Northland Urban Rural Mission makes a number of observations about the Government’s response to the Report today.

     “The WEAG Report stated that the whole welfare system is broken. It needs radical overhaul. This Government response today is no more than a shuffle – as yet – in that direction,” said Tim Howard.

     NURM sees the controlled Friday afternoon release of the report and its own limited response as indications of Government’s priorities. “The Government’s response is underwhelming, and does not signal the ‘transformative’ and ‘kind’ approach to governance, or the overhaul of the welfare system, that earlier rhetoric had led us to be believe,” said NURM’s Tim Howard.

     The focus on paid work as the essential pathway to wellbeing for all – a concept insufficient for many, including people with carer responsibilities, people with beneficiaries – is still embedded in this Government’s response. When the Minister says they will have more staff, those officials are designated specifically to get people into paid work, not to provide more responsive support for beneficiaries to receive appropriate entitlements and humane treatment.

     The lifting of the abatement levels in April 2020 is a good move. That said, it must also be described as being of limited impact. “Lifting the abatement levels a bit does not go anywhere close to meet the recommendation that a 47% increase of benefit levels was necessary if whanau and especially their children were to be able to live reasonably. How will Government reduce poverty when the poorest have yet to have any increase of income?” said Tim Howard.

     “We greet the removal of s70A sanctions with relief, as will many sole parents. This policy was sexist, racist and ineffective, and even the previous Government’s officials recognised that. But its removal, promised years ago, is hardly a response to the WEAG Report today,” said Tim Howard. “Maybe it was held back for release today because there was nothing else of substance to release.”

     Other sanctions – recommended by WEAG for removal – are still to be in place. “The needed culture change in Work and Income is still – for the moment – tainted by its punitive elements.”

     “Minister Carmel Sepuloni seemed to pour cold water over the possibility of any more substantial response to the WEAG Report in this month’s Budget. We hope for more. But – if Government continues to kick the other recommendations to touch, without clear timelines for implementation – that will represent a failure of this Government to address poverty and to transform our society to be kinder and more accessible to all,” said Tim Howard.
5. greywarshark 5

   5 May 2019 at 1:41 pm

   It is getting to the stage where government cannot avoid looking at recognising unpaid work as being worthy of consideration to meet work requirements set by government. People doing something positive for society that is unpaid, are actually putting value into the nation.

   Unfortunately the left has often taken ideological views on what is practical and possible from socially-oriented legislation. This report Social Welfare in NZ is full and explanatory, covering the historical aspects of fulfilling needs that were regularly changing.

   2000 Social Welfare in New Zealand https://www.beehive.govt.nz/speech/social-welfare-new-zealand

   Overall, this is a welfare system for the 21st century. It is active in ensuring that New Zealanders can be part of the new economy and society that is taking shape. We call it positive welfare.

   Social Security Amendment Bill – The first stage of the reforms to the social security system have begun with the Social Security Amendment Bill now before Parliament.

   The underlying premise of the bill is that it is the job of the social security and employment system to provide security for those who need it, opportunities for those who can take them and to not waste precious resources policing make-work schemes like Community Work.

   With that in mind, the Bill proposes that from 1 December 2000 community work will no longer be mandatory and the sanctions associated with community work will be removed.

   At the same time, voluntary work in the community will become a recognised activity for work-tested beneficiaries.

   From 1 July 2001 the community wage is replaced with a separate unemployment benefit and a separate non-work tested sickness benefit. The current work-test is refocussed and a revised and simplified sanction regime for work-tested beneficiaries comes into effect.

   The idea here of not trying to provide work schemes for the unemployed (here dismissed as 'make-work schemes like community work) would result in less assistance by government to enable people to be integrated into the community and learn new skills, and have a continual recognised work period with expectations – a sort of working-apprentice scheme – which would lead them out of becoming unemployable and dropouts. But needing the right control and oversight – the foreman of a building company last century told me of rousing the young apprentices from bed to get them to work – the firm probably had to give them tea and toast to get them fuelled up as well.

   Community wage was to get beneficiaries into jobs, paying them the dole plus $21, but it undercut real jobs in the economy. It was unsuitable as initially introduced, and was scrapped instead of being altered to meet the reasonable criticism.

   What was practical and produced reasonable outcomes, but required real work by government with young people who couldn't slot into employment as is, was abandoned in favour of fancy words and because there were some examples of money not being well-spent. So then it would be paid out to youngsters with little direction and mentoring; certainly money badly spent! Stupid and irresponsible behaviour by Steve Maharey or his cohort in Labour.

   https://www.parliament.nz/en/mps-and-electorates/former-members-of-parliament/maharey-steve/

   • Spokesperson, Social Welfare and Employment: 1996 – 1999
   • Member, Social Services Committee: 4 March 1997 – 18 October 1999
   • Minister Responsible for the Community and Voluntary Sector: 10 December 1999 – 15 August 2002
   • Minister of Social Services and Employment: 10 December 1999 – 19 May 2003

   Becoming a volunteer would be dependent on the beneficiary either willingly, or being forced to apply to the volunteer scheme almost like a labour exchange. But groups needing volunteers are not set up to oversee young trainees-in-life, they need reliable people with skills and commitment. Having volunteer work recognised as suitable work, would be a boon for a beneficiary unable to find suitable work, transport-accessable work, part-time work enabling parental responsibility work to be integrated into the time. That was a good measure.

   But trying to shoehorn needy untrained people with unsuitable moral habits into work experience or volunteer work was not okay. I remember the young chap sent to work at an RSA as a helper/volunteer/apprentice who tried to rob it and shot and badly injured workers there. A placement by an irresponsible government department.

   1999 http://archive.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/income-and-work/employment_and_unemployment/measuring-unpaid-work-in-nz-1999.aspx

   2001 http://m.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/income-and-work/employment_and_unemployment/measuring-unpaid-work-in-new-zealand-1999

   2016 Labour: beneficiaries should be able to volunteer instead of taking jobshttps://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11742828

   <i>Labour has proposed allowing beneficiaries to meet their work obligations by doing volunteer work instead of looking for a paid job.The proposal is one of more than 60 recommendations in Labour's 'Future of Work' Commission report which was released by Finance Spokesman Grant Robertson today.</i>

   This post by Weka 2018. Labour: beneficiaries should be able to volunteer instead of taking jobs : https://thestandard.org.nz/us-and-them-what-will-labour-do-about-winz/ (106 comments)

   2001 TRANSITIONS IN THE HAWKES BAY LABOUR MARKET: UNPAID WORK AND PAID WORK http://integrationofimmigrants.massey.ac.nz/publications_lmd/HB%20unpaid%20work%20and%20paid%20work.pdf
   • Sacha 5.1

     5 May 2019 at 1:45 pm

     "recognising unpaid work as being worthy of consideration to meet work requirements "

     Thankfully that is woven through the freshest review's report: http://www.weag.govt.nz/
     • greywarshark 5.1.1

       5 May 2019 at 3:26 pm

       That would be good, especially if the unpaid work measures take into account the previous problems. I will have to study the report and try and read behind the lines.
       • Sacha 5.1.1.1

         5 May 2019 at 4:08 pm

         I've found the Cabinet paper a better summary so far: https://www.msd.govt.nz/documents/about-msd-and-our-work/publications-resources/information-releases/weag-report-release/cabinet-paper-welfare-overhaul-advice-from-the-welfare-expert-advisor….pdf
         • Rosemary McDonald 5.1.1.1.1

           5 May 2019 at 8:26 pm

           That link isn't working for me Sacha…. goes to msd but telling me 'page not found'.
           • Andre 5.1.1.1.1.1

             5 May 2019 at 8:44 pm

             Let's see if this works:

             https://www.msd.govt.nz/documents/about-msd-and-our-work/publications-resources/information-releases/weag-report-release/cabinet-paper-welfare-overhaul-advice-from-the-welfare-expert-advisor….pdf

             If that link doesn't work, try this one and scroll down to the one with a title

             1 Budget Sensitive Office of the Minister of Social Development

             https://www.msd.govt.nz/s/search.html?collection=msd-msd-web&query=welfare+expert+advisory+group+report

             edit: first link munted itself same as it did for Sacha, but the second should get you there.
             • Rosemary McDonald …

               5 May 2019 at 9:11 pm

               Thanks. The last one worked. Normally, Sacha's links are solid. Is this usual for MSD?

               I have downloaded and saved them to my hard drive…just in case.
               • Sacha …

                 6 May 2019 at 8:28 am

                 Sorry. A weird one, that.
             • greywarshark …

               5 May 2019 at 9:15 pm

               https://www.msd.govt.nz/documents/about-msd-and-our-work/publications-resources/information-releases/weag-report-release/cabinet-paper-welfare-overhaul-advice-from-the-welfare-expert-advisor….pdf

               Might be right report – off a less loaded link.
               (Worked when I left out some of the heading, yet all the heading shows up when downloaded. WTH?)

               I liked the style of the last Recommendation under Community.
               Recommendation 42:
               Direct the Ministry of Social Development to develop the capacity and capability to engage with, promote and fund community organisations to provide wide-ranging opportunities for volunteers and people receiving benefits to be meaningfully engaged in their communities
6. greywarshark 6

   5 May 2019 at 1:44 pm

   Some links below recognising and measuring women's unpaid work about which there was much discussion decades back.

   Why can't women be allowed to keep on learning, when they become mothers making the skills required for enabling good health and good values and a good mother's role modelling. And get NCEA credits for it, all good worthy work involving wide learnings. But enable part-time work, perhaps two or three committed friends to work at one job, all keeping up their work and people skills, but able to stand in for each other? Some could manage this. New ideas need to be tried.

   Pushing women out to work full-time (now set at about 30 hours a week statistically) is factory female-treatment; all must be treated the same and kept working so they don't idle about, become totally unemployable perhaps continuing for a lifetime, and get pregnant again. Put plainly, that is behind the moralistic attitudes of most of the RW politicians and some on the Left too, and the tight-minded law designers.

   https://women.govt.nz/work-skills/utilising-womens-skills/paid-and-unpaid-work – 2012

   Marilyn Waring had important things to say about it;https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/109204824/marilyn-waring-womens-work-still-ignored 2018

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/world/107833033/womens-unpaid-work-is-worth-billions-of-dollars-study 2018

   2017 https://www.bookcouncil.org.nz/aotearoa-reads-details/extract-hopes-dashed-the-economics-of-gender-inequality?id=books (Author Prue Hyman Economist)
7. greywarshark 7

   5 May 2019 at 5:58 pm

   Superbugs v phages (Bacteriophages) See Andrew at #11 at Open Mike 5/5/19.

   Action now under way at various arenas with the help of IPATH (Center for Innovative Phage Applications and Therapeutics.)!

   The author of this article is an infectious disease epidemiologist Steffanie Strathdee who worked frantically to find a cure for her sick husband Tom.

   https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-my-husband-became-a-poster-child-of-the-post-antibiotic-superbug-era?ref=home

   the worst bacteria on the planet”, he told us. Acinetobacter baumannii. …I vaguely recalled streaking A.baumannii on petri plates when I was in college back in the 1980s. It was considered relatively harmless then…Since then, it had earned the nickname ‘Iraqibacter’ because it had hitchhiked on the military’s evacuation system from the Middle East, infiltrating hospitals in Europe and the US along the way. Many vets survived their injuries, only to succumb to Iraqibacter…

   Bacteriophages (phages) are viruses that have naturally evolved to attack bacteria. They were first successfully used to treat children with dysentery during an outbreak in Paris in 1919, and in the following two decades were widely used. But after penicillin was introduced in 1942, phage therapy was largely abandoned in the West….developed a phage cocktail personalized for Tom’s (very ill husband) Iraqibacter, sourcing phage from their laboratories and environmental sources where bacteria are abundant, including sewage.
   • cleangreen 7.1

     6 May 2019 at 7:59 am

     Greywarshark;

     Yes this is the elite finding another way of introducing a more clever method of cleansing the overpopulated planet I fear.

     A kind of very secret invisible 'insidious enforced global attrition'.

     Part of "agenda 21" most probably.

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agenda_21

     No end to the evil the 1% elite will cling to their riches while killing the masses.
     • greywarshark 7.1.1

       6 May 2019 at 10:07 am

       I don't think it is deliberate cg. It is just a result from moves that are unhealthy for the planet – an externality that minds focussed on rigid beliefs and narrow ideas of self-satisfaction observe but don't consider of importance.

       To the capitalist mind, any ill effects that their actions cause are considered on a cost-effective basis. Or they just create a new opportunity for developing a new business, in this case selling people back their health. And if a person dies, then their value as a profit-making point goes, but hey there are plenty more of us out there.
     • WeTheBleeple 7.1.2

       7 May 2019 at 7:50 am

       Nonsense. Phage clearing out bacteria is something I can do in a petri dish. It is our best bet at tailored antimicrobial compounds and these have been common scientific knowledge for some time.

       It is not a global conspiracy, it is a reaction to the need for antibiotics in the light of superbugs.

       Yes, doctors are largely dictated to by the FDA, and that is a problem as american interests are ultimately not yours or mine.
8. cleangreen 8

   6 May 2019 at 9:48 am

   Read the evidence that there are plenty of "Dirty Doctors" here in this article to find that the whole medical system is corrupted by big pharma who owns FDA.

   https://www.ibtimes.com/dirty-doctors-does-spike-physician-arrests-new-york-reflect-ethics-crisis-american-medicine-1565450
9. Jenny - How to get there? 9

   6 May 2019 at 4:41 pm

   Words are cheap.

   If "Climate change is my generations' nuclear free moment", as she once said. Then Prime Minister Ardern has just allowed the equivalent, of Prime Minister Lange allowing nuclear armed warships to come here.

   https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/388521/maori-disappointed-ancestral-land-up-for-tender-for-oil-and-gas-drilling-in-taranaki?fbclid=IwAR2_S4l4_0S58JJlK1J6dUtPxe7WFOqYv8foIhVTbB8B7yaZGPrnsVzJ4pM

   Shouda, woulda, coulda…

   …..The government aims to reduce New Zealand’s emissions to net zero by 2050.

   Te Tai Hauāuru MP Adrian Rurawhe said he understood their concerns.

   “I sympathise with them but until we can transition to a low emissions economy, we are basically going to have to live with the situation we are in.”

   It has said that if religion is pie in the sky, when you die. Then socialism is pie in the sky, in the future.
   • Jenny - How to get there? 9.1

     7 May 2019 at 6:58 am

     Robert Guyton…

     5 May 2019 at 1:21 pm

     So, act? Is that the way to lead?

     Of course it is Robert.

     Because actions speak louder than words.
     • Jenny - How to get there? 9.1.1

       7 May 2019 at 7:07 am

       It is fine to 'say' that we will be carbon neutral in 2050, because those of us writing here, (or the ones making this legislation will probably not be around in 2050).

       Because the Zero Carbon Act carries no actions in the here and now, it is just words.

       An action that opens large parts of Taranaki to new oil and gas exploitation, is a far more powerful statement, than a promise of being carbon neutral by a very distant date.
10. Pat 10

    7 May 2019 at 7:03 am

    “We tried to document how far in trouble we are to focus people’s minds, but also to say it is not too late if we put a huge amount into transformational behavioural change. This is fundamental to humanity. We are not just talking about nice species out there; this is our life-support system.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/may/06/human-society-under-urgent-threat-loss-earth-natural-life-un-report

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