I don’t give a shit about Hone. But the lynch mob is interesting.

Written By: - Date published: 2:15 pm, November 14th, 2009 - 74 comments
Categories: scoundrels - Tags: , , , ,

Internet Lynch MobWhatever argument there is between the hierarchy of the Maori Party and Hone really doesn’t concern me. While I’m sure Kelvin Davis is watching with considerable interest, Hone was elected by the voters up north for being exactly who he is. This isn’t a political row with the over-powering stench of political hypocrisy like recent ones. It is just Hone doing what he has always done, telling it the way he sees it, in a private e-mail, that got dropped off to the media. The virtual lynch mob running around at present is far more interesting.

Political hypocrisy was the issue with the ‘perk-buster’ Rodney Hide and ‘government waste’ Bill English proving to have their snouts throughly pushed into the trough of what they’d railed against whilst in opposition. That has wider political implications about trust. The trust between our representatives and their voters is critical for maintaining a democratic system. For our representatives to knowingly say one thing in public while their hidden actions are completely different. Well that strikes at the heart of the trust between the ‘punters’ and politicians. That trust was the issue was with the e-mails in Nicky Hagers book after 2005, the Kees tapes in 2008, and the Hide and English rorting actions this year.

If having both public and private opinions that are coherent, consistent and conformant upsets the delicate stomachs of the faux outragers because they simply disagree with Hone’s opinions, then I really couldn’t give a shit. I have to wade through their equivalent comments here daily when moderating.

In Real Life, I hear opinions like this all of the time in all sorts of contexts. For that matter I’ve been known to hold strong opinions myself and I’m seldom backwards in sharing them. My opinions on trolls are well known. Less well known is my absolute boredom with listening to immigrants moaning about the way NZ runs. You can see this daily with some of the posters at No Minister who bring back memories of what used to be called “whinging poms”. Even the native born like my family sometimes have some pretty strange (to me) ideas about immigrants, the world and everything. Hell, you should hear how I frequently describe Microsoft’s software..

The difference between what people say and what people do is a critical component of the legal system and should be of the political system as well. The act is what is required first. To do otherwise would require that many in the south african ghetto in the North Shore should have their mouths stapled. In practice, you just wait for the various immigrant bigots to either leave or their kids to grow up as kiwi’s. Typically the kids wind up  wondering what in the hell their parents are whining about when it clearly doesn’t equate to what they see amongst their friends and fellow workers. It is pretty much the same while we wait for the local remaining victims of the simple bigotry of the british empire educational systems to fade out.

Hone may possibly be offensive and dumb, possibly racist, probably angry, embarrassing, or go too far as some of the varying opinions in posts here assert. I simply don’t care. There is no particular political or social point in people mouthing off. It is only their actions and how they do it that really counts.

It is the type of crap that the same dickheads complaining about it would almost certainly say in private about some groups, and many say here in public. I just deal with it here in the same way that I’d deal with it everywhere – by calling the perpetrators fuckwits in varying degrees of politeness depending on my mood.

But a recent phenomenon to me has been the use of the net to form virtual braying lynch mobs. That is more far interesting and now seems like a good time to reflect on it.. A good example is the disgusting virtual lynch mob that attacked  Winston Peters last year in both the media and the internet. And to read my caustic opinions about that you are gong to have to turn the page.

Now I dislike the opinions, politics, and generally the overall political demeanor of both Winston Peters and NZ First probably as much as anyone can. My opinions on them have been caustic ever since it formed as a party. NZ First  are populist panders to the lowest common denominators of our society. But I also have virtually the same opinion about most talkback hosts, most TV, No Minister, David Farrar when he enters dog-whistle mode, and sometimes even some of our own authors posts. It is the orchestrated publishing of flawed opinions without looking at the evidence for the sole purpose of increasing heat, votes (and ratings) that really gets up my nose and stinks to high heaven.

It was pretty clear very early on that there was nothing actionable in the allegations about Winston and NZ First. For all of the heat of the lynch mob and the media beatup, almost all of the allegations and insinuations on the net and media turned out to be pure utter crap – as I’d anticipated. The only thing that happened was Peters got censured by a show-trial in the privileges committee. That merely diminished its authority in my eyes and many others. Quite simply nothing was proved, probably because there was literally nothing happening apart from sloppy book-keeping.

Initially most of it was simple inflammatory articles in the media and blogs. That probably wasn’t helped by how many journo’s that Winston had managed to offend over the years. They formed a quite distinctive mini-dog-whistle community in their own right during this sorry saga.

However what has been really funny in a black comedy manner has been watching the members of that lynch mob attempting to justify their actions and words in support of ‘justice’. Quite simply they are clearly hypocrites, from the comments here, to the supercilious media commentators, and to the ravings of David Farrar and other bloggers.

It looks to me as if the same thing is happening to Hone. He has simply done what Hone does – been a bit of a big-mouth. It is no different to almost every person I know in the right circumstances. In this case he is probably representing his voters quite well, he sounds like some youngish Maori males of my acquaintance.

Lynching - a way to be socialMeanwhile, the dog-whistling for the mob diverts attention away from more serious political issues. The material forming the crux is edited down to a few phrases taken out of context by the media and dog whistlers. If you read the whole e-mail trail a different picture emerges. But it is something that Hone would have said to your face with no hypocrisy.

The faux outrage of the bigots who say exactly the same things about everyone else forms a lynch-mob. It is a disgusting use of the net. We will have to face more of these virtual lynch mobs in the future on our local net and media.

My advice: don’t let the fuckwits from the lynch mob win. Keep asking them the questions that they don’t like to answer. When they start braying, remind them of their words in previous periods of group insanity. Republish their comments with notes about the end-results. Make it clear exactly how big a pack of fools a lynch mob is.

74 comments on “I don’t give a shit about Hone. But the lynch mob is interesting. ”

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  1. Daveo 1
    14 November 2009 at 2:17 pm

    I’m interested in what qualifies someone to be a member of the ‘lynch mob’ you speak of. Is it just criticising Hone for his unethical behaviour and his offensive views, or does it require calling for him to be censured or sacked as well? At what point in your view does valid criticism become lynch mob behaviour?

    • lprent 1.1
      14 November 2009 at 2:35 pm

      Making something out of nothing and advocating actions that aren’t justifiable.

      The trip to Paris was just bugging off which is pretty much what the rules allow. If the debate had concentrated on that, then fine – that is an action. It is a policy matter about what MP’s are entitled to do. But at present virtually every MP has done it. Rodney is a bit different simply because he spent so much time in opposition puffing stories like that up. His hypocrisy was the story. Same with Bill. But Hone? He’d say that to your face…

      The ‘debate’ is all about what Hone said in a e-mail. Not a matter of policy. Not an action. It was also the type of statement that everyone I’ve know has said at some stage. I expect MP’s to represent their voters. Therefore they are not bloody angels.

      Many of the current members of the lynching crew on the other hand are prime candidates for being hypocrites. Expecting others to follow standards that they don’t follow themselves.

      Criticize by all means. To then follow up with demands that he gets sacked (ie advocating an action) – ridiculous. It is that advocacy of specific actions that qualifies them as a lynch mob member. It is the equivalent of saying here’s the rope….

      Same with Winston.

      • Daveo 1.1.1
        14 November 2009 at 3:16 pm

        Okay, it’s just I haven’t noticed anyone on the internet calling for Hone to be sacked – even those who called for Hide and English to go. People have said that politically his position has become untenable in the Maori Party given the way things have played out, but that’s a different matter altogether.

        • lprent 1.1.1.1
          14 November 2009 at 3:20 pm

          I’m kind of expecting this one to keep building.

          If you remember the Winston lynch mob, it started pretty quietly, then steadily built up into a crescendo of unjustifiable demands for particular actions.

          This post is more of a pre-emptive reflection on that.

        • the sprout 1.1.1.2
          14 November 2009 at 3:21 pm

          I haven’t noticed anyone on the internet calling for Hone to be sacked

          true. the calls have been more for a hanging

        • rocky 1.1.1.3
          14 November 2009 at 3:46 pm

          What about this post on the standard just yesterday? It pretty much called for Hone to be sacked.

          • Daveo 1.1.1.3.1
            14 November 2009 at 8:03 pm

            I stand by what I said, no one’s called for him to be sacked. The closest is someone on The Standard saying it’s beyond repair with the Maori Party and his best bet is for him to leave and rebuild his political profile as an independent.

            • rocky 1.1.1.3.1.1
              14 November 2009 at 8:31 pm

              I actually took this comment “The Maori Party has no real choice but to kick him out” from the post to be calling for him to be sacked.

            • Daveo 1.1.1.3.1.2
              15 November 2009 at 12:15 pm

              Well, you’ll have to ask Marty, but I read it as a statement recognising the politics of the situation, not as a call for Hone to be sacked for wrongdoing. If anything the people calling for the sacking of English and Hide have been relatively easy on Hone.

              Sure, there’s a lynch mob mentality in parts of the media and certainly from Goff, but I don’t see any evidence of an internet lynch mob.

      • dave 1.1.2
        14 November 2009 at 4:12 pm

        lprent, I hope you`ll agree that pulling a sickie and lying to your party leader about it so you can go sightseeing when paid to do something else is not acceptable, and is not ” bugging off as the rules allow”. If not, why not.

        • lprent 1.1.2.1
          14 November 2009 at 4:29 pm

          So? It is irrelevant to what I was writing about. I did cover it in passing – read the first paragraph.

          Nicely polished pig-fucker message. Worthy of the best of the ACToids. You are a member of that club aren’t you?

          However…….

          It is a matter between the party membership and Hone to decide if he should be part of it. If you’re a party member then you can be involved in that decision.

          At a personal level, it is a matter between the people involved inside the party. I suspect that is where the problems really are. Turia isn’t exactly the best on her inter-personal relationships.

          But as far as the party is concerned, we’re not talking about an employer/employee situation here.

          Hone is an electorate MP, not a list MP. He is pretty much responsible to his electorate – not to the party or you. If you’re part of that electorate then you can be part of that decision.

          He is a member of parliament. Again not an employee/employer relationship. The rules there pretty much allow MP’s to allocate most of how they spend their time themselves. If you want to change that, then I’d suggest that you campaign against ALL of the MP’s that take advantage of the laxness of the rules. However you’d probably have to do some interesting things to the parliamentary system to do it.

          Perhaps you should read about the responsibilities of an electorate MP is at a constitutional and legal level?

          I’d say you are simply dog-whistling. I seem to remember you showing that same lamentable level of ignorance during the Winston lynching as well. Should I look it up? How about concentrating on facts rather than simplistic bullshit…

          By the way – Pig-fucking statements like your comment are a good sign of dog-whistler as far as I’m concerned (I should look up a link for that story about Pres Johnson). Here I’ll try one…

          Is it really true that you look up woman skirts at every opportunity?

          Nah – I don’t get as much practice as you obviously have….

          • George D 1.1.2.1.1
            14 November 2009 at 8:28 pm

            I disagree with you. Am I pig-fucker who looks up skirts? Or is that something you reserve for the right?

            • lprent 1.1.2.1.1.1
              14 November 2009 at 9:20 pm

              Nope.

              I was referring to a political tactic that dave was using that I don’t agree with. It is a particular favourite of ACT supporters when they are trolling

              Umm looking it up for your education and future reference…

              Try this.

              Early on Thompson got kicked off the Ed Muskie campaign for giving his press pass to some “gin-crazed Boohoo’ who ended up terrorizing Muskie on a train trip down the coast of Florida. In retaliation for having his privileges taken away, Thompson, who never liked “Big Ed’ anyway, began to write extensively about how it was rumored that Muskie was addicted to a West African drug called Ibogaine, an upper of sorts that keeps a person awake in a very menacing fashion. Thompson speculated that this was probably the reason why Muskie had been acting so “erratic’ of late. Unfortunately, he could not confirm it one way or the other because he had been banned from the campaign. Readers and other reporters took the allegation seriously and questions were put to the Muskie campaign. Denying the charge, Muskie expressed outrage. After the campaign ended, Thompson stated that he never accused Muskie of using Ibogaine. “I said it was a rumor to that effect,’ Thompson explained. “I made up the rumor.’

              So in a stroke of rhetorical genius, he turned the tables on the politicians he was covering. Fed up with their commonplace lying and deception, he decided to fabricate information about them, since they had been fabricating information about everything else. During one of Thompson’s infamous digressions, he relates a story from the ’68 presidential campaign in which Lyndon Johnson “told his manager to start a massive rumor campaign about his opponent’s lifelong habit of enjoying carnal knowledge of his own barnyard sows.’ The campaign manager protests that nobody will believe that the guy’s a “pigfucker.’

              “I know,’ Johnson replied. “But let’s make the sonofabitch deny it.’

              Thompson claimed that these types of nasty practices and exchanges are regular features of most campaigns. So he appropriated this tactic as a writer, creating a way for journalists to get involved the process. By showing that two can play at that game, Thompson hoped to teach politicians a lesson about lying, demonstrating that what goes around can also come back around to bite you in the ass.

              If you have a look at dave’s comment, he was using the tactic, by framing a question so that he could do the same thing.

              There was extensive discussion of this around the NZ political blogs in 2007 and 2008. The ‘sod and Whale in particular were in love with it.
              Pisses me off.

      • Geoff 1.1.3
        15 November 2009 at 5:03 pm

        You got it.

        The email was sent solely to RNZ’s “Morning Report”. They dealt with it as an issue of MP behavior, and the fact that Hone was attempting to justfy his little trip to Paris while he should have been doing the business of the NZ taxpayer…and the fact he had tried to justify it with some kind of mad colonial oppression argument complete with a string of curses designed to put Buddy Mikaere and any other critics in their place.

        Eventually the email made its way to the TV networks and since then its all about the use of “motherf**ker in the New Zealand parlance, and what a nasty brute Hone is.

        He may well go , but he should go for the right reasons.

        Geoff

  2. BLiP 2
    14 November 2009 at 2:39 pm

    Great post. Cheers.

    The mob members are typified by exhibitions of sheer nastiness hidden behind a facade of outrage at some perceived slight. We are seeing the same lynch mob that was set loose by Basher Bennett when she hung out those two women for a public kicking now putting the boot into Hone.

  3. the sprout 3
    14 November 2009 at 3:00 pm

    excellent post lprent – couldn’t agree more.

    although those in the illustration look a little more tolerant than the people you’re talking about 😉

  4. lprent 4
    14 November 2009 at 3:05 pm

    Hah… I have a better one. I’ll add that to the end.

  5. Princess Consuela Bananahammock 5
    14 November 2009 at 3:36 pm

    A great article that goes to the core of the issue. Glad to see some at the Standard get it.

  6. rocky 6
    14 November 2009 at 3:48 pm

    Great post Lynn 🙂

  7. ropata 7
    14 November 2009 at 4:17 pm

    This ‘lynch mob’ allegation is not a constructive response to Harawira critics. It’s merely creating more heat.. since when did the people of New Zealand lose the right to criticise their elected representatives?!

    What a useless post.

    • lprent 7.1
      14 November 2009 at 5:25 pm

      Ummm I didn’t say that people can’t criticize. In fact I explicitly said the opposite.

      It is inciting towards specific actions that makes people a member of lynch mob.

      Most of the post was about Winston. Did you just miss that?

      Should I dig up some of your comments from the past about Winston to demonstrate what I was talking about? Do you have a guilty conscience? Does that account for your outburst?

      Or is it that you don’tknow how to read? Or did you just not bother reading the post before writing your comment criticizing it?

  8. ropata 8
    14 November 2009 at 5:47 pm

    I did RTFA, and I take exception to the notion that anytime you disagree with people you can liken them to a lynch mob and plaster objectionable photos of public hangings on the web. Just a little extreme don’t you think?

    • lprent 8.1
      14 November 2009 at 6:04 pm

      Doesn’t look to me like you did Read The Fucking Article. Otherwise you wouldn’t have made such a basic misrepresentation of what I said.

      I take exception to people doing that. I also took strong exception to what happened last year with Winston. Even if he is a prick, he didn’t deserve what I can only describe as a lynching. As I pointed out there, when he was actually judged about charges being brought forward, there was nothing there apart from sloppy book-keeping.

      The pictures are exactly appropriate. A lynching is a pre-judgement and action by people who are too thick to look at evidence, go with their prejudices, and take irrevocable actions. What else would you describe what happened last year?

      Now we have the exceptions over with. Do you actually have a opinion that isn’t simply a dog-whistle style diversion? Or should I simply add you to the list of lynchers trying to justify their statements, incitements, and action by avoiding the topic raised?

    • the sprout 8.2
      14 November 2009 at 8:14 pm

      oh boo hoo. you’re not in remuera now dr ropata.

  9. rave 9
    14 November 2009 at 8:38 pm

    I think Hone was thumbing his nose rather than his thumb at all the unreconstructed southern racists out there as well as the brownnoses who run his party. The guy has a massive contradiction running through him. Unlike Brash the Hide and Key and the Labour front ranks who are all sellout capitalistas and who seize on this media beat up to make their racism respectable, Hone is caught betweem the rock of the bosses state and the hard place where he comes from which is working class Maori. Occasionally he beats his head on the rock when he realises that his class is suffering and he’s in a suit doing his OE. He may wake up anytime.

  10. Bill 10
    14 November 2009 at 8:42 pm

    This is the sole comment I will be making on this thread.

    I think the post is pertinent.

    Many of the comments on previous threads on Hone’s comments have, to me, been more revealing of the nature and persistence of what I have always seen as a pernicious undercurrent of racism constituting one of the unacceptable ‘acceptable’ faces of NZ.

  11. Rob Carr 11
    14 November 2009 at 9:01 pm

    I must say this is quite possibly the best written article I have read on here since starting to read it regularly a few months back.

    On the issue of Hone I have to say I really wasn’t surprised he would make a comment like that and think that the private emails of MPs should be left alone unless it is some type of conspiracy situation. It is not far off complaining about someone writes in their diary to me. If members of the Maori party aren’t angry about what happened in the past what are they doing there? Of course it is going to lead of occasional colourful language…I don’t think he is a particularly nice person for thinking that way but I don’t think it is news worthy. Certainly not to the extent it has been.

    Anyway about online lynch mobs in general I have to wonder where you draw the line. This isn’t some kind of coordinated lynch mob activity like in real life in a lot of cases this is a general case of having a lot of angry people and then a case of follow the leader. If only one post was about this it wouldn’t be an issue. What is troubling is how much it may snowball when really its not that big a deal and I must agree not sacking worthy. At what point does one become a member of the lynch mob? How many people, how angry about an issue? I will probably have done it myself about an issue before regardless of where it is but I am curious.

    • lprent 11.1
      15 November 2009 at 10:19 am

      It is an issue about where the line gets drawn. One site had these examples. Some I agreed were required (the spammer getting spammed with snail-mail for instance), some I didn’t (a town and parents getting pilloried because a kid has some issues, for instance).

      The reason I raised this is because it is likely to become more of an issue over time. It is has been curious when I have been pointing out to people over the last year that they did operate as a lynch mob last year, how little that they liked being judged for their own behaviour, how defensive they got (just read some of the comments here), and how little they’d thought about it. Happy to dish judgment out. Less happy to have to justify their actions themselves against judgement.

  12. RedLogix 12
    14 November 2009 at 9:48 pm

    Hone is mostly guilty of being an uppitty brown. As such the system will give him an especial kicking. He joins a growing list of brown/working class people who’ve fallen or been pushed into the meat grinder; Awatere-Huata, Tamihere, Field, Peters and now Harawira.

    All of them stepped over a line one way or another and all have been given a good ol’hiding to learn’em their proper place as house browns.

    • gitmo 12.1
      14 November 2009 at 10:17 pm

      “All of them stepped over a line one way or another and all have been given a good ol’hiding to learn’em their proper place as house browns.”

      What a load of tosh

      Huata and Field are convicted crooks.
      Tamihere got a kicking from Clarke for talking back
      Winston pissed off the public and press once too often with his lies and obfuscation.
      Hone’s a potty mouth nothing more nothing less.

      The colour of their skin ain’t got a thing to do with it.

      Ps good on ya All Whites.

      • RedLogix 12.1.1
        14 November 2009 at 10:37 pm

        Get a grip gitmo, and quit reading me selectively.

        I clearly said that they all stepped over a line. But the difference was in the treatment.

        Bill English stepped over a line, but he’s a white farmer boy and he’s still the Minister of Finance. Hide’s a flaming poster boy for hypocrisy… but he’s still in his job as Minister for Local Govt.

        The brown fellas by contrast get no second chance, no redemption, they get the boot, a screeching howling humiliating mobbing at maximum volume and total annihilation at the end.

        The fact that you cannot tell the difference is a symptom of the white racist bullshit we like to pretend doesn’t happen here.

        • gitmo 12.1.1.1
          15 November 2009 at 8:10 am

          No you get a grip apologist.

          You well know there’s a large gulf between troughing on the taxpayer and being found guilty of a crime.

          And please tell me what is racist in my comments I suggest you look in the mirror you’re the one who’s suggesting they’ve been mistreated because of the colour of the skin I’m calling bullshit on that supposition.

          Your desperation to get Hide and English into the debate outs you as a partisan hack.

          • RedLogix 12.1.1.1.1
            15 November 2009 at 8:40 am

            English lied about his ‘primary residence’ for a decade, a lie that was worth over $400k to him personally. Yet you label that theft as harmless, blameless ‘troughing’… because it was ‘within the rules’.

            Field’s personal benefit was likely 1/10th that amount, but the system mounted one of the longest, complex trials in NZ legal history and slugged him for six years in prison.

            One gets off because it’s called ‘troughing’ and that’s ok because it’s what politicians do; the other is crucified as a criminal and destroyed. I invite you to step back from your own partisan preconceptions here and have a think.

            And as for the apologist crack… show me where I’ve ever said that Field’s actions were justified. They were not, but neither was ensuing absurdist witch hunt.

            Actually I could accuse you of doing the ‘apologetics’ for English’s theft of public monies, by minimising it as ‘troughing’… but calling each other names really doesn’t take the discussion anywhere does it?

            • gitmo 12.1.1.1.1.1
              15 November 2009 at 8:54 am

              That’s right keep running the meme that Field’s the victim here and that if he was white that Lockwood, the serious fraud office etc etc would never have gone after him ….oh yes and the court and judge clearly must have been racists….mm quite so.

              Oh and for a for a list of MPs troughing on the public teat I suggest you refer to the following websites.

              http://www.act.org.nz/mps
              http://www.greens.org.nz/people/MPs
              http://www.labour.org.nz/mps
              http://www.maoriparty.org/index.php?pag=cms&id=145&p=hone-harawira.html
              http://www.national.org.nz/MPList.aspx

              and let’s not forget those a class leaders of political parties …. cough cough or should that be trough trough

              http://www.unitedfuture.org.nz/
              http://www.progressive.org.nz/

              Plenty of troughers in that lot to choose from ……….. and guess what doesn’t matter what part of the political spectrum they come from.

              [lprent: Found it. Just hadn’t checked the spam. The number of raw links made it think it was spam. Rightly – we get a lot of attempts to drop comments in that are just links to commercial sites.
              Check out this link on how to link cleanly. ]

            • gitmo 12.1.1.1.1.2
              15 November 2009 at 9:46 am

              Hm for some reason my post has disappeared.

              But your continued meme that Field has been unfairly treated because he is not white is rather pitiful and supposes that Lockwood went after him only because he was brown, that the SFO only went after him because he was brown, and that the court and judge were racist in finding him guilty and giving the sentence they did.

              As per the troughing have a look at the MP lists for all the political parties there’s an abundance of troughers in all of them

              [lprent: glitch? Keep an eye out for it happening again, and what you were doing before it. There is a major upgrade of the re-edit plugin and I have had issues with that before when it has been upgraded.
              I haven’t nuked anything on this post and in any case we would usually delete with a note unless you’d had a ban. ]

            • RedLogix 12.1.1.1.1.3
              15 November 2009 at 10:20 am

              Lockwood went after him only because he was brown, that the SFO only went after him because he was brown, and that the court and judge were racist in finding him guilty and giving the sentence they did..

              Racism in this country doesn’t work overtly like that, rather it works covertly in ways that skews the debate right from the outset. Any white MP who had made the same sort of mistakes Field did (Worth’s misconduct, while different in nature does come to mind)… would have been dismissed as Minister, exiled to the back of the backbench and allowed to either quietly resign or simply not be reselected at the next election.

              Another curious example was Paul Davy, the original CEO of MTV. Do you imagine that he is the first and only person to have fabricated a CV in this country? Of course not. But he is the first and only person to have been convicted on a criminal fraud charge for doing so, even though no evidence was ever presented to show that he caused MTV any actual harm or loss. The normal course of events would have been to quietly dismiss the man and that would have been the end of it. But unfortunately for Davy, there was another agenda at work, the desire to humiliate the new upstart Maori TV brand in public… so Davy got an extreme treatment.

              You can loose yourself the details of these cases, but undeniably there is a bigger pattern at work here, that whenever the brown cuzzies step out of line, or get too uppitty, the racist white mob uses their mistakes to metaphorically lynch them. Sure we don’t do it from trees anymore, but it’s not much less ugly this way either.

            • gitmo 12.1.1.1.1.4
              15 November 2009 at 3:05 pm

              I think people see what they want to see……..if you go looking for racism you’ll find it, however, IMO NZ is a very very tolerant integrated society we just tend to focus on the negatives all too often.

            • RedLogix 12.1.1.1.1.5
              15 November 2009 at 3:23 pm

              Or not find it if they don’t want to.

              That’s an assertion that can be sharpened to cut both ways.

  13. prism 13
    14 November 2009 at 10:07 pm

    Does this approach advance the discussion RedLogix?
    Parodying the gutter racism endured by USA blacks just
    clouds the NZ situation.

  14. RedLogix 14
    14 November 2009 at 10:24 pm

    It’s really quite easy prism; if you want to understand why Hone wrote what he did, you kind of have to get some feel for the bullshit that gets routinely handed out by white racist motherfuckers in this country.

    As others have pointed out, Hone’s gone and pressed that big red glowing, pulsing button in NZ politics called race, ironically the same one that Don Brash hit on at Orewa… and mutual respect, rational discussion and the possibility of harmoniously reconciling the Maori and European world views slips further away from us.

    And after a while it blows over and the button gets reset; and most of us go back to pretending that all is honky-dory in clean, green godzone. Well it’s all a lying pretense and until we start owning up to the gutter racism, a covert commonplace at all levels and components of NZ society; then all we are doing is storing up grief for the day when someone hits the button again… and it doesn’t blow over nice and quiet like.

  15. prism 15
    14 November 2009 at 10:53 pm

    Theres no reasoned answer possible to that emotive honestly felt rant. It distresses to see how things are – they should be better. But going ballistic won’t do it.

  16. Craig Ranapia 16
    14 November 2009 at 11:49 pm

    Well, nice to see Lynn sinking to the Chris Trotter play book — who, inside one rather ugly week, managed to compare critics of Winston Peters not only to a racist lynch mob but gang rapists.

    Well played, Sir. You’ve got the gall to accuse David Farrar of “dog-whistling”, while cheaply invoking literal torture and murder for rhetorical effect.

    • lprent 16.1
      15 November 2009 at 9:38 am

      Ah good to see that Mr Ranapia prefers to avoid the questions raised in his usual style. Nice to see someone being as consistent over time as being completely shallow.

      But it appears that you don’t understand why stable societies frown on extra-legal justice and insists on having due process.

      I hardly think that the obsession DPF showed about Winston (from memory he did about 40 posts on the subject in the course of a week) could be justified in the light of subsequent events. I’d define that as dog-whistling.

      But then your comments are always a bit shallow and usually avoid actually talking about whatever the subject is in any depth. A triumph of style over understanding.

  17. Ag 17
    15 November 2009 at 3:17 am

    “But a recent phenomenon to me has been the use of the net to form virtual braying lynch mobs.”

    There’s nothing new about this. People said the same about the television and radio, and they were right the internet just amplifies it.

    Braying lynch mobs are the natural end state of democracy. Technology has just made them more effective.

    You know how the communists realized all of a sudden that their political system wasn’t working, and that their direction of reform was destroying it. That’s happening to us now.

    • lprent 17.1
      15 November 2009 at 10:10 am

      Possibly.

      One of the interesting links that I read when I was researching this topic of internet lynch mobs was about a move by a number of countries to legally require full names. Lost the link damnit…

      Personally I don’t think that this is required (and has some severe downsides – one of the countries is China). The net has been through this type of thing before, and adapted. It is the usual thing with new tech – it enables people to do things that weren’t possible before.

      There are some pretty scary cases as well as some really useful uses documented in 8 Awesome Cases of Internet Vigilantism. CNN did a piece on it. There are quite a lot about it on google – especially in Asia. I suspect it becomes an issue where the cultures seem to be particularly susceptible. I’d strongly prefer NZ not to be one of them.

      • Ag 17.1.1
        15 November 2009 at 8:08 pm

        IIRC South Korea is moving that way. That country has a big problem with vicious internet campaigns. As I understand it, western responses to the government’s actions are missing the point, since SK is about 5 years ahead of most of the world in internet access and thus far ahead in internet culture.

  18. gitmo 18
    15 November 2009 at 8:18 am

    “The difference between what people say and what people do is a critical component of the legal system and should be of the political system as well. The act is what is required first. To do otherwise would require that many in the south african ghetto in the North Shore should have their mouths stapled. In practice, you just wait for the various immigrant bigots to either leave or their kids to grow up as kiwi’s. ”

    What exactly have the South Africans on the Shore done to upset you ? All the South Africans I’ve met who’ve settled here have been very pleasant people.

    • lprent 18.1
      15 November 2009 at 9:43 am

      Many of them are fine people, especially when they have exposed themselves to society outside of Auckland and outside of the Shore.

      But there have been a few times I’ve gone to BBQ’s on the shore and have been impressed at how little that some know about society outside of their laager.

      • gitmo 18.1.1
        15 November 2009 at 10:20 am

        Ah so a couple of comments at a BBQ after a few drinks …. meh.

        Can’t see how that extrapolates to…….. “To do otherwise would require that many in the south african ghetto in the North Shore should have their mouths stapled”

        Should I put it down to artistic licence and bombast ?

        • lprent 18.1.1.1
          15 November 2009 at 10:29 am

          Probably a bit.

          But I really start cringing at parties when I’d hear a moderately inebriated south african male voice starting to go off in blowhard mode. You’d wind up having to explain how the country worked across the whole place.

          Mind you I get the exact same feeling on occasions when going to some parties around Pnsonby / Grey Lynn about the military or farmers. (I’ve done both).

          Or to farmers about why unions are a good thing.

          Or to polynesian christians about how people can be moral without going to church.

          It is people assuming that their universe is the same one that everyone else inhabits.

          • gitmo 18.1.1.1.1
            15 November 2009 at 10:41 am

            He he I know the feeling.

            Although having friends ranging from raging pinkos to hang em all from a tree righties there’s nothing I enjoy more than when we all bait and wind each other up over a BBQ and a couple of drinks…..perhaps it’s more fun for us because we don’t take ourselves or politics too seriously and when it comes to what I consider the real tests of right and wrong their is a fairly strong conensus between all of us.

  19. torydog 19
    15 November 2009 at 8:44 am

    when you start selecting which MP’s you will stick up for and defend I think the standard has lost credibiltiy………how many posts has it been from the standard defending Hone and effectively saying all this “over reaction” is because hes a maori……get a fucken grip!

    I will spend my time reading the womens day from now on….more informative.

    • RedLogix 19.1
      15 November 2009 at 8:53 am

      That’s the whole point td; the fact that you cannot see the the disproportionate responses here is the racist bullshit we are talking about.

      I accept that you honestly cannot see it… but that IS the issue.

    • the sprout 19.2
      15 November 2009 at 8:54 am

      when you start selecting which MP’s you will stick up for and defend I think the standard has lost credibiltiy

      great logic t’dog.
      yeah the standard’s writers should stand up for ALL MPs regardless, to be fair and balanced because they’re all equally worthy/guilty/innocent, and in the hope we might win your valued affections 😆

    • lprent 19.3
      15 November 2009 at 9:52 am

      Ummm have you actually read the posts on Hone here? I don’t think I’ve actually read one that has defended his actions or words.

      This post hasn’t defended him – it has concentrated on the acts and words of the people condemning him. It compares that to similar acts and words leading up to the debacle about Winston last year. It points out the lack of due process that the hysterical furore when some people were jumping to conclusions about legal liability – which proved to be incorrect.

      Perhaps you don’t approve of due process?

      There has been a variety of posts done by different authors. There isn’t exactly a conformity of opinion amongst them (read the links in the post).

      • prism 19.3.1
        15 November 2009 at 10:48 am

        I wrote a post about Hone trying to be objective, saying he was sincere and working for Maori and at least he was honest and straightfoward in his opinions and that it wasn’t such a big deal to take a side trip, especially since he paid for it.
        I also said I took umbrage at his anti-woman language. Perhaps I am not one of the extreme thorns in the flesh who write here so frequently and meretriciously, or perhaps I use big words that aren’t easily understood or read. A large number of the people posting here seem to have an elementary level of language and thought and time on their hands – the sort who rushed out to buy a t-shirt with Bugger on it as the height of wit, when it was passed as an allowed word after the great Alsatian advert.

        • lprent 19.3.1.1
          15 November 2009 at 11:04 am

          I saw that. I don’t have much time to respond as much as I’d like. Besides it is a bit of a dampener to debate to have the sysop getting too actively involved in the comment stream outside of my own posts.

          Having a political site that is open means that you get a diversity of opinions and abilities. We moderate the worst out of the system to ensure that the comment stream is worth reading, and doesn’t become a simple slagging fest. That would simply mean that we start losing commentators and the comment stream would deteriorate to the bully fest like the sewer did the last times I looked at it. It is a delicate balance.

          Try looking at some of the old posts prior to moderation and you’ll see what I mean – like this one. But you have to take some of the bad with the good, the inane and the verbose. Just the nature of having a reasonably open debate.

          BTW: The dog looked more like a huntaway to me than an Alsatian.

          • prism 19.3.1.1.1
            15 November 2009 at 11:13 am

            Thanks Iprent – Huntaway, I’ve heard of them – the barking ones aren’t they, not the quiet eye dogs.

            • lprent 19.3.1.1.1.1
              15 November 2009 at 12:02 pm

              Yeah. I’m pretty sure that neither are an actual breed (but could be wrong). But they are pretty distinctive once you’re worked with them a few times.

          • Mach1 19.3.1.1.2
            16 November 2009 at 8:16 am

            Huntaway, selectively bred for its noise, heading dog or eye dog, bred from the traditional Border Collie to use a strong eye and “head” when herding sheep.

            The New Zealand Huntaway is a very unique sheep-herding dog, in that it uses its voice to drive the sheep. The dog learns to gather the heard and follow behind it. Special events were developed for these dogs at sheep-herding trials. The events were referred to as “huntaways”, which eventually gave the dog its name.

  20. Maui 20
    15 November 2009 at 8:55 am

    Hey, I tried to defend the guy ! (“In defence of Harawira”)

    I find it a bit far-fetched to compare isolated geeks tapping away on keyboards with the crowd psychology of a lynch mob, but it has been a great diversion from the daily grind.

    Hang in there Hone. The expressions on Tariana and Pita’s faces are priceless.

  21. cassidy 21
    15 November 2009 at 12:49 pm

    Great post Lynn

  22. Brian 22
    15 November 2009 at 4:22 pm

    You guys know all about political hypocricy since Labour has been in opposition. At least Rodney Hide said sorry, which is much more than we ever heard from Helen for all her cock ups and involvement in lawbreaking eg painting-gate, travelling way above speed limit just so that she could get to a stupid rugby match.

  23. erm 23
    16 November 2009 at 3:21 am

    God almighty, what a load of contrived dribble.

  24. erm 24
    16 November 2009 at 3:24 am

    And to use images of black lynchings, you are beyond contempt lprent.

  25. vto 25
    16 November 2009 at 4:20 pm

    angry
    thread

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