Israel fights back

Written By: - Date published: 8:20 am, January 2nd, 2018 - 168 comments
Categories: Abuse of power, Deep stuff, International, israel, Media, Politics, the praiseworthy and the pitiful - Tags:

A few days ago New Zealand musician Lorde decided to heed the concerns of those justly complaining about the treatment of Palestine and cancel a planned concert in Israel.  With many others I applauded her decision.  I believe the treatment of the people of Palestine is one of the festering sores on our planet and until and unless nations can sort this out then there is little chance of peace in the Middle East occurring.

It seems that the state of Israel did not see things in the same way.  Maybe it is a New Zealand thing.  Just over a year ago New Zealand was accused of committing an act of war by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu when it fronted a Security Council resolution to condemn the continued building of Israeli settlements on Palestinian land.  This was I believe Murray McCully’s finest hour.

Then Lorde received a similar attack for making a similarly principled decision.

It looks like the gloves are off and Israel is preparing to attack any suggestion that it is oppressing the Palestinian people, even though it is.

First there was talk of a fund being set up for counter propaganda purposes.  From the Times of Israel:

[Prime Minister Benjamin] Netanyahu and [Finance Minister Moshe] Kahlon wouldn’t have to worry about coalition squabbling if they were the actual princes of Israel, but they’ll never be royals, as popster Lorde would have sung in Tel Aviv had she not canceled her show. Yedioth reports on a new plan to make sure the next Lorde cancellation doesn’t happen, with Strategic Affairs Minister Gilad Erdan setting up an NGO and pouring at least NIS 128 million into fighting the Boycott Sanctions Divestment movement.

The paper notes that the body will be structured like Birthright — with rich foreign Jews matching the government amount and then some — to buy services from better PR companies and create a “civilian infrastructure that will help and be used by the State of Israel and the pro-Israel community to fight the delegitimization of Israel.”

And then what may be the first sign of action appeared by way of a full page advertisement taken out in the Washington Post.  Here it is:

The person who placed the Ad, Rabbi Shmulay Boteach is described as one of the 50 most influential Jews in the world.  It seems that he is not in receipt of Israeli largesse, at least not yet, and has set up a GoFundMe page to fund the advertisement.

And don’t you love it when oppressors criticise people making a stand for human rights just because other oppressors also oppress.

To show the extreme steps the Israeli Government will go to in an attempt to curry international favour it has been reported that it is preparing to create a payola fund to get poor and developing nations to support Israel on the promise of cold hard cash.  From Jerusalem On Line:

After last week’s overwhelming majority against Israel at the UN General Assembly, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is planning to launch a project called 50/50, in which 50 countries that promise to support Israel will get $50 million each.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu plans to grant $50 million to countries who promise to support Israel in the international arena.

According to Israel News Company, Netanyahu’s idea is to set up a fund for a project called 50/50, in which 50 countries – mostly developing countries in Africa, Eastern Europe and Asia – will get $50 million each from Israel in exchange for diplomatic support.

The Foreign Ministry has already begun working on the project. Netanyahu is reportedly expected to push it forward in the next budget discussions.

The idea for the project was reportedly born after last week’s UN General Assembly vote on Jerusalem, in which 128 countries, including ones that have good diplomatic relations with Israel, voted against it.

Netanyahu is right in that the state of Israel is getting a lot of bad press lately.  But rather than attempting to bully or buy its way out of this problem which is of its own creation the best thing it could do is to attempt to reach peace with the state of Palestine.  And stop stealing Palestinian land.  And stop subjugating Palestinian people to the sort of treatment last seen during the Apartheid regime in South Africa.

168 comments on “Israel fights back”

  1. One Anonymous Bloke 1

    I wonder if the Rabbi god-botherer really intended to compare Israel’s human rights record with Assad’s.

  2. Anne 2

    Israel spent decades [and at the time rightly so] cashing-in in terms of sympathy and support for the Jewish Holocaust victims in Nazi Germany.

    Now they have created a little ‘Nazi Germany’ of their own only this time the victims are the Palestinians.

    And they appear to be adopting the same kind of PR tactics… misrepresenting anyone who dares to call them to account as “Jew hating bigots”.

    Sad.

    • Pat 2.1

      “He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.”

      Freidrich Nietzsche.

      Prescient….

    • Morrissey 2.2

      Actually, Anne, after the war, Israel was especially harsh and judgemental about Holocaust survivors. The sabra mentality of being tough and cruel against the Palestinians did not fit with what they perceived to be the weakness of the Nazis’ victims. I recommend you read Mordechai Richler’s This Year in Jerusalem (1994) for a thorough account of this viciousness.

      The weaponizing of the Holocaust as a club with which to beat opponents of Israel’s lawlessness really ramped up only in the 1970s.

  3. Carolyn_Nth 3

    The UK Guardian has an article that cites Boteach’s form:

    Regarded by his critics as a rightwing self-publicist who styles himself as “America’s rabbi”, Boteach was widely criticised in 2015 for a similar full-page advert in the New York Times accusing Barack Obama’s then national security adviser Susan Rice of turning a blind eye to the Rwandan genocide when she was on President Bill Clinton’s national security team in the 1990s.

    [he] has been quick to level suggestions of antisemitism at figures he regards as anti-Israel, he has also had no qualms about defending others on the right from the same accusation, including Steve Bannon and the Breitbart website.

    In 2016, Boteach defended Bannon from accusations made by Jonathan Greenblatt of the US Anti-Defamation League, who criticised Bannon’s appointment as a White House adviser, saying it was a “sad day when a man who presided over the premier website of the ‘alt-right’ – a loose-knit group of white nationalists and unabashed antisemites and racists – is slated to be a senior staff member in the ‘people’s house’”.

    In an open letter to Greenblatt, Boteach vouched for Bannon, saying it was unfair to object to his appointment on the basis of Breitbart’s content or audience.

    The criticism of Rice is probably justified, though.

    Meanwhile a spokes person for the NZ Jewish Council said it tried to prevent the anti-Lorde ad being published, according to Newshub.

    Jewish Council spokesperson Juliet Moses said “bullying” the 21-year-old won’t promote conversations or co-existence between the two sides, which have been at odds for decades.

    “She has made that decision now, and therefore there is nothing to be gained by essentially bullying her over it – which is what we were accusing the people who wanted her to cancel her concert [of doing],” she told Newshub.

    • Anne 3.1

      Meanwhile a spokes person for the NZ Jewish Council said it tried to prevent the anti-Lorde ad being published…

      It is pleasing to hear that. I lived with Jewish people in England years ago and came to know them well. They were good, kind and generous people. Therefore it is genuinely sad at what is happening to Israel.

      They will lose. Despots and dictatorships always do in the end.

  4. Siobhan 4

    So, this is from alternet, but it would suggest the so called ‘Rabbi’ isn’t that credible, more another Trump would be hanger on…and if nothing else, scroll down to ‘America’s charlatan’.

    https://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/meet-shmuley-boteach-right-wing-reality-show-rabbi-hustling-his-way-trump-campaign

    • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1

      😆

      So it turns out his “message” is exactly the same as all other churches: “give me your money”.

    • Rosemary McDonald 4.2

      “… it would suggest the so called ‘Rabbi’ isn’t that credible…”

    • Tricledrown 4.3

      Not so funny the KKK and the rabbit rabbi both support Trump .

      • lloyd 4.3.1

        You can understand this when you realise the KKK want Jews out of the US. For the KKK Zionism is an anti-Jew programme. All the Jews can be sent to Israel leaving the US that bit whiter. Then the wall along the Mexican border will that much more effective….

  5. patricia bremner 5

    It is a sad fact that the abused often become abusers.
    Lorde has followed NZ’s position, and withdrawn. She is no bigot.

  6. North 6

    Well said Anne @ 2……for decades Zionists have conflated any expression of resistance to Zionist exceptionalism (their ’boutique’ licence to dispossess and enslave) with anti-semitism. I trust Nelson Mandela all day long ahead of fascists like Netanyahu.

    Here’s some anti-semitic ‘stone throwing’ with a twist.
    https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.790883

    • tc 6.1

      There’s vision of settlers urinating on them in occupied territories also as part of the now seemingly institutional humiliation Israel dishes out.

  7. Ross 7

    I’m appalled at Boteach’s advert. I mean, referring to Lorde as NZ’s “leading cultural export” is so wrong.

  8. BM 8

    Sucks for Lorde being used as a pawn for other peoples bull shit.

    There are no good guys, fuck the lot of them,

    • mickysavage 8.1

      I take it you believe Lorde is on the side of the angels?

      • Stunned mullet 8.1.1

        Good grief MS. Did you not read BMs second sentence ?

      • BM 8.1.2

        No, picking sides in this conflict is idiotic, they’re all as equally bad as each other.

        To all you clowns who basically bullied a 21-year-old woman into having to take a position where she can’t win and which will no doubt have severe ramifications on her career.

        What do you think would achieve more?

        Letting a popular young singer go play in a country and spread a message of peace and togetherness?

        or force a popular young singer into a situation where she’s now painted as an antisemite and will no doubt be hounded by pro-Jewish/ hard right Christian groups where ever she goes for the foreseeable future?

        • mickysavage 8.1.2.1

          She wasn’t bullied and the anti Semite slur is completely baseless.

          Besides the ad is also aimed at New Zealand for promoting a vote on the Security Council condemning Israel for taking Palestinian land. Again.

        • Draco T Bastard 8.1.2.2

          No, picking sides in this conflict is idiotic, they’re all as equally bad as each other.

          No they’re not. Israel and their supporters are simply wrong.

          To all you clowns who basically bullied a 21-year-old woman into having to take a position where she can’t win and which will no doubt have severe ramifications on her career.

          Doesn’t look like she was bullied.

          What do you think would achieve more?

          Cutting all contact with an oppressive regime seems to do more than turning a blind eye on that regimes oppression.

          • Et Tu Brute 8.1.2.2.1

            Draco, how would that help?

            Both Jews and Palestinians have rights to land in the area. There was the original mandate, but it led to war. Over the decades war, and violence have entrenched positions. In 1967, for example, during the war, Israel seized Jerusalem and the West Bank. That happens in war, no? Now, they should have given it back. The occupation is now illegal, but Israel claims that the West Bank is a strategic asset to keep them safe. I don’t think it does. They need to move to a two or three state solution and some settlement on the neutrality of Jerusalem (or make it a shared capital) with Israel removing itself from the West Bank. But the Palestinians and Arab neighbors are hardly blameless. Every time they get near peace, some third party with no skin in the game acts up. A teenager pulls a gun on someone. Or Iranian or other regime-backed group fires a rocket at Israel. Israel shoots back and oh no! the rocket was fired from a school and now a classroom is hit. Fatah and Hamas aren’t in control enough to stop these small groups with foreign aid from launching attacks, but too proud to admit they need help. Then there’s the right wing nut jobs in Israel who might throw stones at Palestinians or murder one out of spite.

            If you were Israel you’d be doing almost exactly the same thing. It’s how politics works. The Palestinians would be doing little different either. In this regard BM is right – they’re all as bad as each other.

            • Draco T Bastard 8.1.2.2.1.1

              Both Jews and Palestinians have rights to land in the area.

              The Jews haven’t had any right to the land for about 2500 years.

              Israel is an invasion of Palestine.

              • Et Tu Brute

                Two major diaspora on the genetic record, latest being around 2,000 years ago. But yes, it has been a while. I’d argue though that they maintained a spiritual connection to the land and it remained of significance to them. How long does a land have to be occupied before it belongs to the occupier?

                Then there was the international backing for a state of Israel within set boundaries.

                • red-blooded

                  So what makes the Palestinians the “occupiers”? They weren’t involved in driving Jews from Israel. I seem to recall that was the result of Roman occupation.

                  • Et Tu Brute

                    Occupiers in a non-pejorative sense. They literally occupy the land, whether they stole it or not. In the same sense I now occupy my home.

                    • Morrissey

                      You’re a fool. Why are you commenting here? Go to Whale Oil, where everyone is ignorant. They’ll accept you.

                    • Et Tu Brute

                      Morrissey, at least have the intelligence to put forward an argument. Maybe for you the situation is clear cut and the Jews should be kicked out, but I see the situation as a lot more complex. And no, I wouldn’t fit in on Whaleoil because I think there should be at least one Palestinian state and that Israel shouldn’t occupy the West Bank.

                    • Morrissey

                      It’s not a question of “kicking the Jews out”. International law is clear on this matter: Israel is illegally occupying the West Bank and illegally blockading Gaza. It must cease both of these crimes. Unfortunately, its sponsor and guarantor in these crimes is now led by someone with less knowledge of the situation than a New Zealand intermediate school student.

                      “Whenever I mention President Trump, people start to laugh—(LAUGHTER). Trump said, “I don’t mind whether it’s one state or two states.” I don’t think he knew what he was talking about.”

                      —-Israeli journalist Gideon Levy, in Auckland 3 December 2017

                      http://morrisseybreen.blogspot.co.nz/2017/12/soon-even-notion-that-israel-is.html

                      My apologies for my little outburst, before, Brute—I was still in a state of high dudgeon after dealing with our friend McFlock, and you copped the backlash. I would be honored if you would accept this by way of apology….

                      https://media.tenor.com/images/09b5bb0baad437b4a82272e376aa2581/tenor.gif

                    • Et Tu Brute []

                      Apology accepted. I think we talked past each other. You can accept the right of Israel to exist while condemning their crimes in Gaza and the West Bank.

                  • Titus dispersed the Jews and ransacked both Jerusalem and the Temple ( even though initially he didn’t want the Temple destroyed and it was the fault of over exuberant soldiers actions ) in 71 AD I think the year was.

                    It was a result of nationalist groups like the zealots that caused Rome to step in and squash insurrections / rebellions against Roman occupation .

                  • Brewer

                    “No “nationalist” Jewish historian has ever tried to conceal the well-known fact that conversions to Judaism had a major impact on Jewish history in the ancient period and in the early Middle Ages. Although the myth of an exile from the Jewish homeland (Palestine) does exist in popular Israeli culture, it is negligible in serious Jewish historical discussions. Important groups in the Jewish national movement expressed reservations regarding this myth or denied it completely.”
                    – Israel Bartal, Avraham Harman Professor of Jewish History, former Dean of the Faculty of Humanities at Hebrew University and chair of the Historical Society of Israel.

                • I’d argue though that they maintained a spiritual connection to the land and it remained of significance to them.

                  Got any proof of this spirit or are you just talking out your arse?

                  How long does a land have to be occupied before it belongs to the occupier?

                  The usual capitalist idea is that land belongs to the occupier if they’ve improved it. That doesn’t take long but the Palestinians have spent centuries improving the land that is theirs.

                  Then there was the international backing for a state of Israel within set boundaries.

                  That doesn’t give those other nations the right to disposes the Palestinians.

                  • Et Tu Brute

                    Drago, don’t play dense. Jews have for centuries/millennia dreamed of a return to Israel. As you say, that was where they once lived. Jerusalem was their spiritual capital. It is the home of their religion. Each year their saying was “Next year in Jerusalem.” Their religion might be hogwash as with all other religions, but hard to deny the spiritual connection to the land.

                    • Jews have for centuries/millennia dreamed of a return to Israel.

                      Well, perhaps some of them have. I’m sure Zionists, a small fundamentalist cult that arose in the 19th century, would like you to think that they all have.

                      Each year their saying was “Next year in Jerusalem.”

                      [Citation Needed]

                      Also required context.

                    • logie97

                      … the W.I. groups in the British Isles had similar claims
                      Jerusalem
                      BY WILLIAM BLAKE
                      … Till we have built Jerusalem,
                      In Englands green & pleasant Land.

                      Written long before Balfour’s declaration too.

                    • Brewer

                      Supporters of the Israel project confuse “spiritual connection ” with proprietorship.
                      To the best of my knowledge, “spiritual connection” has never been legal tender in real estate transactions in any part of the World or in any part of History.

                  • Et Tu Brute

                    Jews migrated to Palestine from Europe and other places in the Middle East where they weren’t wanted. At first they bought land etc… And population changed. Nature of immigration. It wasn’t an invasion. Eventually the international community decided it would be best to have two parallel states. Makes way more sense than a nation divided.

                    • Jews migrated to Palestine from Europe and other places in the Middle East where they weren’t wanted.

                      A small number which belonged to a fundamentalist cult did.

                      At first they bought land etc… And population changed.

                      Not by enough to change the majority hence the Zionists getting a promise from Britain and, once the UN had created Israel against the Palestinians wishes, their pogrom of Palestinians.

                      So, yeah, definitely an invasion.

                      Eventually the international community decided it would be best to have two parallel states.

                      A decision that the international community had no right to make. Even the UN Charter guarantees a nations right to self-determination – unless they’re Palestinians apparently.

                      If the international community wanted to give the Jews a piece of land for them to have their own state they should probably have started by finding a nation that wanted to give them a significant amount of land. They knew that the Palestinians didn’t want to do so.

                    • Et Tu Brute

                      Come on. This is Judaism 101.

                      At the Passover and Yom Kippur they repeat/sing the prayer “L’Shana Haba’ah B’Yerushalayim”. This is not the same as Zionism which requires a Jewish ethnostate, this is simply a religious desire to return to the holy land. Different Jews will project their own meaning onto the prayer.

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Shana_Haba%27ah

                      https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/next-year-in-jerusalem/

                      And just because I ended up on Youtube, I thought this was [un]appropriate:

                    • My point was that a small number of Jews, all of which were Zionists, actually acted upon their desire to return and did so – with the intention of pushing the Palestinians out.

                      Some more may have returned to pray at the wall and then returned home.

                      For the rest I suspect that it’s just a mouthing of words that they don’t actually listen to if they even speak them. They certainly don’t seem to making any effort to actually go to Jerusalem.
                      (I can recite a large part of the Lord’s Prayer but that doesn’t give me any claim to Jerusalem despite it being the holy city in the holy land which the Crusades went off to grab a few times or any of the other lands and cities that they conquered in between.)

                      Still, even such a desire doesn’t allow them to claim some other nation’s land.

                • lprent

                  They don’t seem to to have stayed inside those boundaries. Instead they have occupied areas and set up large ghettos and outright concentration camps in them.

                  FFS: what kind of idiot fuckwits would try a teenager in a military court for slapping a soldier on her own property.

                  The only difference between the Israeli conscript occupation forces and concentration camp guards is their current lack of ovens.

                  • SPC

                    They have crossed a line with this one, a line they do not seem to be aware exists.

                  • Et Tu Brute

                    Yes, so they are in the wrong. A full and final settlement would see some peace agreement with some give and take, and the original lines, within limits, restored. I suspect, for example, that Syria would probably have to give up the Golan Heights, but the Palestinians would get back the West Bank and Gaza etc…

                    The point I guess I’m getting at, right or wrong, Israel exists and its people have a right to exist. A long term sustainable solution must be a way for the people in the area to live side by side.

                    The withdrawal from Gaza was a good case study in what could be done. The kick back from voters was bad, but it does show what is possible, with 21 villages dismantled and all the Jewish settlers moved back into the state of Israel. Perhaps a full and final settlement would see some major international funds go toward relocating Jewish settlers and compensating Palestinians.

                  • Et Tu Brute

                    Yeah the case of Ahed is ridiculous. The soldiers went out of their way to not respond (good), only for probably some elected official or civil servant wanting to look tough deciding to send a squad in to arrest her. Unfortunately this is the problem with politics; there are so many people involved one person can ruin it for the majority. I have a theory that Fatah and Hamas, for example, are genuinely wanting to avoid outright confrontation, but all it takes is some fringe group with foreign cash or foreign weapons, and a situation blows up. Fatah and Hamas then don’t want to look like they’re not in control, and Israel points the finger at them and says “you’re in control, you’re responsible.”

              • Obtrectator

                More right than the Arab invaders of the 7th century. (But that still doesn’t excuse the Israelis’ current behaviour.)

                • Et Tu Brute

                  I’m sure that was tongue and cheek, but, no. Arab today is a broad term, but in the 7th century the Arab armies came up out of the Arabian peninsula. They spread Islam, but not a lot of genetics. Modern Palestinians are closer related to Jews, Egyptians, Lebanese etc… than Arabs (though the split was 2,000 years ago). Also a large portion from Crete. About three thousand years ago there was a big population move from Greek Islands/Crete down into Palestine/Egypt/Lebanon. Some say refugees. Making of the original Philistines. In fact some Philistine archaeological sites are distinctly Greek/Cypriot. ANYWAY, Palestinians are their own mash up of genetics, but Arab isn’t really one of them.

        • Et Tu Brute 8.1.2.3

          Yeah this is a conflict where both sides are wrong in different ways. It is a very difficult position to be in. But Lorde’s management should have seen this coming. This is a situation where a good adviser would have simply not booked a concert there and none of this would have happened. Besides, I doubt it will hurt her. The young people that listen to her music are overwhelmingly pro-Palestine, or they just don’t care. This is good for name recognition.

          • mickysavage 8.1.2.3.1

            The other sides are in the wrong mantra means that nothing will ever be done.

            How about we go back to basics? If there is for instance a security council resolution in existence then we expect, both sides to adhere to it.

            • Et Tu Brute 8.1.2.3.1.1

              Agreed. It isn’t an excuse for bad behaviour. This situation needs leadership though – something Trump can’t provide. A lasting peace agreement requires give and take, and it requires both parties to feel safe doing so. Upping the anti with each other doesn’t help. But at the moment too many countries without skin in the game are involved. For some it is a good excuse to distract people from domestic issues. And in this regard the Security Council and General Assembly is probably a bad place for this to play out. They don’t really carry the mana or clout needed to bring peace.

              • McFlock

                Israel is cornering itself into a situation where it’s only – err – “solution” will end up being some form of genocidal mass relocation, like what happened to the – err – Armenians.

                It had started down a more peaceful path under Rabin, but the nutbars put paid to that. Now Israel faces a birth rate problem in the Palestinian (and Palestinian-Israeli) population that it can’t match. Their options are basically to learn to live with others, or remove the others.

                It’s choosing the tragic option.

                So, like apartheid SA, we shouldn’t let people go thinking that this is a normal way of doing business. That means boycotts.

        • Anne 8.1.2.4

          So, politely explaining to someone your point of view has now become “bullying” has it BM? The old ‘projection thing’ at work again?

          It seems to be forgotten that one of the two persons who contacted Lorde was in fact Jewish. Mind you, we’ll gloss over that fact cos it doesn’t fit in with what BM and others want to believe eh?

          • joe90 8.1.2.4.1

            They’re going after Justine Sachs.

            So now Wohl continues in his tradition of emptiness, this time with some actual words, in his op-ed on the major daily Yediot Aharonot’s website Ynet.

            Wohl hurls thinly veiled accusations of Sachs being a kind of Nazi-collaborator, a ‘kapo’, when he writes:

            “[Y]ou choose to play the role of the classic Jewish wimp, who has to prove his animosity towards his Jewish brethren in order to survive. You’re not the first person to do so. Some people, by the way, have been much more successful than you, and this isn’t the place to quote from the history of the early 1940s.”

            http://mondoweiss.net/2017/12/activist-counseled-treatment/

        • weka 8.1.2.5

          “To all you clowns who basically bullied a 21-year-old woman…”

          Where’s the bullying? I hear people saying that but I must have missed it at the time. Some links would be good.

          • Carolyn_Nth 8.1.2.5.1

            In her statement, Lorde said she discussed the issue with people with different views…. then it sounds like she made a decision for herself – did some research, came to her own decision.

            “I’ve received an overwhelming number of messages & letters and have had a lot of discussions with people holding many views, and I think the right decision at this time is to cancel the show,” Lorde wrote of her decision.

            Why do you assume a 21 year old woman is incapable of making her own mind up?

          • BM 8.1.2.5.2

            Earlier this year, musician Nick Cave announced that he would play in Tel Aviv because he wanted to “make a stand against those people who are trying to shut down musicians, to bully musicians, to censor musicians, and to silence musicians”.

            https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/music/100048687/fans-call-lorde-to-boycott-israel-after-she-announces-her-show-in-tel-aviv

            • In Vino 8.1.2.5.2.1

              A bit like those rugby players who wanted to ‘improve’ apartheid in South Africa by playing their favourite game with them? Who says Nick Cave is any kind of example?
              Why not cite Roger Waters, former Pink Floyd man? He favours the boycott, and, regarding political matters, has a far better record to my mind.

            • weka 8.1.2.5.2.2

              sorry, still not getting it. Where’s the bullying of Lorde specifically?

            • SPC 8.1.2.5.2.3

              Anyone asked to support a boycott is free not to do so, and is not threatened, if they do not join it.

              The existence of a boycott including artists, is not in any way an attempt to censor musicians, that claim is risible.

              If he just said he did not want to be part of the boycott, that he would rather play the concert (and go wherever there was a paying market etc) – there is where the truth lies.

              • In Vino

                Quite true. And there was no bullying – that is in BM’s mind because some terrible people asked Lorde to think about a point of view that BM does not like. To his mind, that is bullying because she is so young and innocent… she would never disagree with BM if she were an ‘independent’ neo-liberal thinker…
                But Lorde is far from stupid.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 8.1.2.5.2.4

              Classic: right wing nut job cannot support own assertion, cites agreeable opinion instead.

              This is what think tanks are for: to provide arguments talking points for people who can’t hold their own in a free marketplace of ideas.

              • In Vino

                Yes, well… BM’s shattering response does seem to be very conspicuous by its absence.

                • weka

                  I thought so too. The quality of his comments have taken a dip in recent months.

                  • McFlock

                    I wonder if some event shattered his sense of entitlement and made mockery of his beliefs?

                    Grieving is a process, lol

        • smilin 8.1.2.6

          Get real sunshine your attitude is one that comes from privileged white nz
          Israel is a product of over 200 yrs zionist politics
          go read a big chunk of history
          we all have to take a stand against what is happening in Palestine
          just as we did with apartheid in South Africa but this is worse or have you been asleep for the last 20 +yrs
          If thats yours you wrote go down with the ship
          The majority in the UN cant be wrong all the time.

          • TB 8.1.2.6.1

            “Israel is a product of over 200 yrs Zionist politics” Actually what is happening now, is probably due to about a thousand (give or take a few centuries) years of oppression and Pogrom’s, of the Jews in Europe. Culminating in one of the most civilized and advanced countries in the world (Germany), deciding to eliminate the Jews altogether.

            • Brewer 8.1.2.6.1.1

              ” a thousand (give or take a few centuries) years of oppression and Pogrom’s,”
              This is a myopic view of History that ignores both the oppression of other races and indigenous peoples that was commonplace in many eras and certain facts such as the period (app. 7th through 12th century) known as The Golden Age of Jewry when Jews were accepted in society and Jewish religious, cultural, food, and economic life blossomed.
              It also ignores the position that many Jews enjoyed during much of History when, by virtue of their “separate” status, they were appointed to privileged occupations forbidden or unavailable to indigenous peasants such as tax collection, banking etc.

              Intrinsic to this erroneous belief is a concept of inherited grievance – the notion that a grievance is some kind of real asset owned in perpetuity across millennia despite myriad changing circumstances and realizable as title to real estate. If such a concept were valid, the World (to paraphrase Erich Fromm) would be a madhouse with descendants of victims of Genghis Khan, slavery, Highland clearances, colonialism, Protestant persecutions, Muslim persecutions, Hindu persecutions – ad infinitum, all claiming inheritance.

              The Judaic claim to real estate in Palestine stems from the (probably mythical) conquest of Canaan and rule by David and Solomon for a period of 80 years 3,000 years ago followed by about 320 years of two small Judaic principalities which then fell apart. Middle Eastern Jews (Mizrahim) and Palestinians are both descendants of those Canaanite (and many other “ites”) resident in the area for thousands of years.

              Whatever form Zionism takes it is simply the expression of a nostalgia for a brief period of ancient History when Judaics were victorious in numerous barbaric battles for dominance. It has succeeded inasmuch as it has engendered a cultural return to those times and unless abandoned, will produce the same result.
              Zionists are primitives. Many cultures have long ago learned the difference between (and often incompatible nature of) love and possession.

    • adam 8.2

      I take it you think everyone else is a devil?

      Edit: Your cynicism is odd BM, are you saying that the last national government was wrong?

  9. D'Esterre 9

    “Putin’s support for Assad’s genocide in Syria”

    If you can name the race being exterminated, please press “1”.

    This is rich, given Israel’s support for ISIS and other jihadists in Syria.

  10. adam 10

    For musicians, press like this is gold.

    Lorde just went beyond big, into the stratosphear.

    All her concerts will now sell out, and everyone buying a ticket gets an added bonus – they can feel like a good person when they do.

    • Janet 10.1

      Don,t know about that. This kind of situation can be very stultifying for a very creative artist too.

  11. SPC 11

    The specific targeting here (in the ad) is of New Zealand for our UN votes (Netanyahu suggested a near state of war with us over with the UNSC vote in Dec 2016), Lorde is just used for double down on the singling out for targeting/exampling purposes.

    The purpose is to call for smaller nations (easy marks) to be made to feel at risk if they stand up to Israel. Trump’s threat to nations that voted against the US in the General Assembly vote resulted in many abstentions and non appearances – even if the majority of members of the UN did turn up and oppose the US position.

    The Israelis are ramping up their attacks to prepare for the votes to come.

    The important UN votes to come are

    1. The UN determining a replacement for the USA as mediator of the peace process between Israel and Palestine.
    2. A General Assembly vote recognising a Palestine state on 1967 borders (until any peace resulting any other borders).

    Which explains the tactic of bribing small nations with $50M to vote as Israel directs them.

    The bible refers to the God of the Jews blessing those who bless Israel and cursing those who do not. A God they created to declare its authority to rule in Canaan. Trump makes American foreign aid conditional on support for Israel, as if Trump’s regime serves the God of Israel. Now the government of Israel adopts this policy, by offering to fund its own bribery operation.

    It is a strange mix of hubris and desperation, it will intimidate some and it is a form of bravado boasting of their power.

    But many will note it follows the pattern of holding border customs revenue for Palestine and not passing it on, to blackmail the PA into appeasement etc. It just reveals the practice of bullying is now systematic/cultural within Zionist activism and apologetics.

    It will alienate those in the middle ground and will lose them what credibility they have left within the human rights orbit of democratic society.

    • SPC 11.1

      End time religion in the USA does not just take the message of God blessing those who bless Israel to heart (thus it is so pro Zionist), it also sees wealth itself as a blessing from God. This sort of message results in open opposition to aid for the poor and for foreign nations (American first), and celebration that there are so many very wealthy people in the USA, yet disregard for the inequality and the extent of deprivation.

  12. SPC 12

    Well Israel is not changing its approach on the West Bank.

    Which is to build more and more settlements and expand those that exist. Time and time again Palestinians have their neighbourhood subjugated, in a policy designed to force the young into either resistance or migration into smaller areas of the West Bank or to leave entirely – fight or flight.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42535685

    And note the Likud Party has just voted to adopt a policy to annex areas of the West Bank.

    The goal of which is obvious, at some point in the future when the population has been diminished sufficiently, to annex much of the West Bank and recognise Gaza as the Palestinian state. But until then confine the Palestinian population into smaller and smaller areas (Bantustans) and those they will not absorb being offered to Jordan in return for land beyond the river to secure eretz Israel (which once included areas beyond the Jordan).

  13. mary_a 13

    It’s a well known fact far too many Jews, Israelis et al still consider themselves victims, demanding they be seen as such. A low tactic too often used as “justification” for annihilating a whole race of people, viciously denying Palestinians’ right to exist! An abhorrent fact which so far the western world has turned an unacceptable and shameful blind eye to!

    This latest although hardly surprising, tirade from the US Rabbi against Lorde and NZ is intimidation by thugs, along with the rest of the anti semitism accusations fired at those who dare challenge Israel’s policies, including that of genocide!

    IMHO an extremely blurred line exists between Zionism and Nazism now. Both hateful regimes determined to push an aggressive, genocidal agenda by any violent means.

    Time for the thugs of the Middle East Israel, to be held to account is well overdue.

    • Incognito 13.1

      People and nations play the victim role when it suits – the underlying psychology is fundamentally the same: victim, rescuer, and persecutor/perpetrator (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle).

      The State of Israel is (also) living in constant fear and feels it needs to justify and defend itself against opposing forces; any sign of weakness could be fatal according to this mind-set.

      When dealing with “thugs” it pays to understand where they’re coming from and what drives them.

      • Wensleydale 13.1.1

        It’s sad that they can’t see you don’t protect yourself from that which you fear by becoming that very thing. And bribing impoverished nations with cash in order to bolster their share of the vote at the UN is both pathetic and thoroughly grubby. Any nation indulging in that sort of behaviour should be rightfully condemned. I’ve never been a fan of Netanyahu, but he seems to have reached critical mass in his frothing zealotry and willingness to defend the indefensible.

    • Anne 13.2

      IMHO an extremely blurred line exists between Zionism and Nazism now.

      QFT.

  14. eco maori 14

    Many thanks to Lorde for cancelling her show in Israel Ka pai. If one has to bribe OUR people of the world to see one’s view on humanity we’ll I think it’s ________. Now Israel leave OUR Lorde alone she is just a inercint KIWI lady look in the mirror because that
    Is who one should blame for this debacle. Ana to kai

  15. R.P. Mcmurphy 15

    there’s no business like show business!
    Have read reams about this over the week and it all seems incoherent to me.
    apart from the fact that people are taking sides and whipping themselves into a frenzy with their strident angry points of view.
    The fact of the matter is that Jericho and Jerusalem were both wells 6,000 years ago where the local incumbent heavies extracted tolls from the passers by.
    Now Israel/Palestine is no longer the promised land.
    It is dirty, smelly, arid, polluted, overpopulated and as far as I am concerned they can stick it.

  16. greywarshark 16

    R P McMurphy at 15
    But stick it where? On the side of the frig as a magnet sticker? There are real people in Palestine and getting strident is a mark of their despair and Israel’s paranoia which bubbles up more from Israelis applying the heat than the Paletinians.

    I have put up a comment about what is happening currently in Greece trying to handle the refugees there. All people who for some reason have decided they must leave the land they had originally occupied – now where?

    The Palestinians have got to hold onto what they have, and given the chance to live a peaceful life without being enclosed in the equivalent of an open prison or a bantustaan they could improve their living conditions so they were not –
    dirty, smelly, arid, polluted, overpopulated etc etc.

  17. red-blooded 17

    So, apparently John Minto is calling for people to boycott Womad because an Israeli artist – Victoria Hanna – is performing there. Adds another layer of challenge (allegations of NZ hypocrisy). Of course, Lorde made her decision as an individual, not a representative of NZ (something the rabbi discussed above seems to have missed).

    • SPC 17.1

      It derives from his background in opposing apartheid. That campaign included African nations boycotting an Olympics (1976) to protest the AB’s tour of South Africa that year. Here Womad for including an Israeli artist.

      For mine the purpose of promoting a boycott is for those who support it to participate (Russian aggression in Ukraine using off duty soldiers and donated equipment is opposed by economic sanctions, but Israel is still exempt from any official first world sanction despite enabling armed settlers via IDF occupation), but it becomes heavy handed when those who do not join it are targeted.

    • Incognito 17.2

      The way I see it is that the ad in the WaPo was never about Lorde; she merely is a conduit or a pawn in a cynical game of power. The whole thing is (counter-) propaganda, from top to bottom, pure & simple. The last sentence is very telling and you’ll also notice that the ad’s sponsor has a misleading name akin the New Zealand Taxpayers’ Union. None of this will bring peace to the ME.

      • Wensleydale 17.2.1

        Boteach has a history of shameless self-promotion. This is more about him than it is about Lorde.

        • Brewer 17.2.1.1

          “When I met Boteach, I was immediately convinced that he was totally unsuitable,” Gross wrote to me, in an email. “He was totally self-obsessed and lacked any form of objectivity. He turned the Chabad house into a vehicle for his self-promotion and self-advancement and basically became an impresario by using the prestige of Oxford to attract celebrity speakers. I informed the Chabad leadership immediately, but they said that he was charismatic … and claimed that they could control him, which was delusionary.”…..
          ……Then, in 1999, the government’s Charity Commission opened an investigation into “the application and control” of the L’Chaim Society’s funds and froze the group’s assets………The commission’s inquiry concluded that “excessive payments” had been made to Boteach and his wife and that mortgage payments made on the Boteachs’ home from Society funds were “difficult, if not impossible, to justify.”
          http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/179882/shmuley-boteach

    • weka 17.3

      Do you have a link to Minto calling for a boycott of WOMAD? All I can see is TDB post where he calls out WOMAD for inviting Hanna to perform and calls for them to uninvite her. Nothing about a boycott.

      Your link goes to a tweet from Bryce Edwards shitstirring (not uncommon for him)>

      • SPC 17.3.1

        You are right, the call is for WOMAD to exclude an Israeli artist/Israeli artists

        Minto sees it as a continuance of an earlier campaign of his against an Israeli tennis player appearing at the Auckland tournament. He did not call for anyone to boycott the event if the player attended, but did with others to seek to make a noisy protest. He seems to think her subsequent non appearance in later years as a victory.

        This is an extension of protest at contacts with the national teams of the apartheid state, to the individual level (which is always more questionable).

    • SPC 17.4

      The BDS campaign does not itself support the targeting of Israeli artists because they are Israeli,

      https://bdsmovement.net/pacbi/cultural-boycott-guidelines

  18. All this fighting and scrapping , and yet the real culprits never get mentioned…

    The ‘Mystery Religions , Luciferian worshiping ‘ Rothchilds :

    History of Rothschild Zionism and Israel – YouTube
    Video for History of Rothschild Zionism and Israel – YouTube▶ 10:49

    And one from David Icke :

    DAVID ICKE ROTHSCHILD ZIONISM – YouTube
    Video for History of Rothschild Zionism and Israel – YouTube▶ 28:23

    And just to cap it all off, here’s an interesting one about the Supreme Court in Israel :

    Sinister Sites – Israel Supreme Court – The Vigilant Citizen
    https://vigilantcitizen.com › Sinister Sites

    • McFlock 18.1

      Lizard-people Icke? Really?

      • WILD KATIPO 18.1.1

        Yep – apparently so ,… yet strangely , Ickes only saying what countless cultures all have had in their traditions around the globe , including many of the Asian cultures with the dragon /serpentine cults – along with the Egyptians on the other side of the globe ,and the tradition that says these ‘demigods’ mated with human females and produced offspring , – which is where the Bible talks about the age of the giants , aka the term Nephilim . The same Nephilim of the pre and post (antediluvian period) of Noahs flood.

        And now we have the quantum physicists stating that ‘dark matter’ exists ie matter that is outside the small band of sensory light / electromagnetic field perception of human beings. Interesting that animals seem to be far more acute in their perceptions – the dog or the cat that bristles at something the human cannot see…

        And just to demonstrate how startling are the similarity’s of passed on information of oral traditions – and the incredible pre Bible knowledge of the Native Americans , – here’s Chief Joseph Riverwind during an interview with L A Marzulli .

        Dakota Access Pipeline protests – Wikipedia
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_Access_Pipeline_protests

        * Riverwind was a leader of the war vets who helped liaise with law enforcement to protect demonstrators while demonstrating along with other protesters at the Dakota Access Pipeline protests and is also a Native American pastor.

        #6 – Chief Joseph – Episode 6 – YouTube
        Video for chief joseph riverwind with l a marzulli interview you tube▶ 29:06

        • McFlock 18.1.1.1

          Yeah, emo teens were wanking off to that golden bough shit since whenever.

          Quantum physics has nothing to do with with magic books or saying the royal family are lizard people. Dark matter is an hypothesis that partially explains the nature of the observed universe, unlike the rest of your stream-of-consciousness weirdness.

          • WILD KATIPO 18.1.1.1.1

            You’re being very aggressive tonight ? Whys that I wonder.

            I do have a question for you however , – do you present yourself as having better qualifications in offering an opinion on matter / anti matter and the electromagnetic light system / atomic structures than the quantum physicists or even a superior understanding than the scribes and seers of ancient cultures?

            If so I would really like to read them.

            And just to show the folly of your answer ,… I notice you mentioned the ‘observable universe’… which straight away negates your narrative. Quantum physics deals with the ‘ unobservable universe ‘ . Which is exactly what was discovered about the atomic structure – that between the gaps of the atom – there is nothing but space / void etc…

            Which leads on to the logical conclusion that this ‘ observable universe’ is nothing more than a 3D hologram interpreted by our 5 senses which operates on vibrations of energy in the electromagnetic spectrum , – energy which is determined by a digital code.

            Even the ancients could work that out.

            Hence the belief in a ‘spiritual world’. The same spiritual world that the modern rationalist desperately try’s to scorn.

            Which is akin to being ‘ bad science’ .

            • McFlock 18.1.1.1.1.1

              Firstly, most secondary school kids today would have a better handle on the electromagnetic spectrum than the Delphic Oracle or a shaman somewhere.

              Secondly, everything even in quantum physics comes back to observable phenomena. That’s what all the terabytes of data are from the LHC: observations. Physical observations. Like the rest of science, if those physical observations don’t match the predictions made by the quantum model, then the model is wrong.

              And “the ancients” would have worshipped as a god anyone who had so much as an incandescent torch.

              You can mash as many things together as you want if you don’t give a shit about their meaning – after all, any fool can see that n-dimensional crystals align within the multiverse in such a way as to make the thought-self sense of Being an eternal uniformity of bacon and eggs.

              If I come across as aggressive, it’s because everything you’ve said in this subthread has been (at best) irrelevant to the issue of boycotting oppressive regimes, and frankly is dimestore fantasy that comes with six packs of plastic dreamcatchers.

              • Love the instant ( and hurriedly non linked provided research ) from associated wikipedia type definitions to bolster the myopic narrative.

                The fact that you deliberately fail to see the correlation between the geopolitics involving Israel , certain elements in the USA and Britain – and cultures past suffering the same subjection’s – means you will always be relegated to seeing the problem but never the solution.

                Along with your carefully crafted and quite liberal put downs ( and might I add – quite colourful : ” frankly is dimestore fantasy that comes with six packs of plastic dreamcatchers ) ” … you still haven’t actually said a thing that refutes…

                I sense more of an angry response stemming from challenges to your orthodox ( and safe ) worldview that you are trying to defend rather than any reply of substance.

                Here is an example of exactly the type of thing I am alluding to – now ask yourself … WHY would so called rationalist scientists in advanced country’s acquiesce to having their work denigrated by project leaders quirky quasi religious motives, – ie: those who commissioned it?

                Simply fear of loss of a handsome salary?

                Learn to dig deeper.

                Please.

                Full Bizarre, Demonic Gotthard Tunnel Opening Ceremony … – YouTube
                Video for opening of CERN you tube satanic▶ 59:35

              • McFlock

                What do I care what you “sense”? You think I might be a lizard-person trying to deflect you from the hidden global conspiracy of “certain elements”.

                Besides, I suspect that if I “dig deeper” into what you believe these “certain elements” are, it’ll just piss me off.

                • McFlock

                  deary deary me…

                  • Yeah ,… you can be ‘pissed off’ all you like , and aside from all the veiled hostility and the sarcasm , it really means nothing to me .

                    But what really concerns me is the rigid adherence to a bloody mindedness born out of the modern western worldview of orthodox rationalism… you hamstring yourself from the very beginning from ever being able to understand what doesn’t fit neatly into that paradigm.

                    The evidence is clear that the origins of the modern state of Israel was brought about primarily by Ashkenazi Jews ,- primarily headed by the family of Rothchild who were the main players in the Balfour agreement.

                    And out of that springs the whole oppression/ genocide of the Palestinians to this day. And that the guiding force of the family of Rothschild is one of a long history of political and financial manipulation , – and their particular brand of belief systems known as ‘Rothschild Zionism’ ,- which is a branch of ‘Frankism ‘- Jacob Frank.

                    Jacob Frank – Wikipedia
                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Frank

                    It is Satanic , and by all accounts a Luciferian mystery religion stretching far back in time.

                    Genesis 6 Conspiracy with Gary Wayne on the Awakening … – YouTube
                    Video for gary wayne genesis 6 conspiracy you tube▶ 1:36:26

                    And that is why I provided the links to History of Rothschild Zionism and Israel – YouTube
                    Video for History of Rothschild Zionism and Israel – YouTube▶ 10:49

                    But you in your rush to defend your secularism and materialism only focused on David Icke ,- ( who also happens to corroborate and add further evidence ) . And that angry , hostile rushing to the defense of secularism and materialism is also why I stated you are predisposed to always see the problem – but never UNDERSTAND the solution.

                    Did you always think that this life and its mystery’s were so simple? ,… or was it just too hard to get your head around at some stage and thus opted for the easy way out?

                    Harden up.

                    • McFlock

                      It’s one thing to have an open mind. It’s another thing to be completely uncritical of your sources just because you happen to agree with him.

                      I know about Balfour. It’s fucking irrelevant to the current behaviour of the Israeli state. It’s as relevant to that issue as the Battle of Agincourt is to my workplace unionisation arrangements. Sure, it’s cool to look for historical patterns to figure out what will happen now, but don’t go confusing them for current events. That’s Balkan-level thinking.

                      And yeah, I focused on Icke, because he’s the perfect example of why your opinions are worthless. You think youtube vids and a guy who says the british royals are lizard people are reasonable grounds upon which to base an opinion.

  19. SPC 19

    Latest news from the Likud Party, they want a requirement of 2/3rd of the Knesset agreeing to any cession of annexed Jerusalem land (80 out of 120 MK’s or 80% of the 100 Jewish MK’s).

    This and annexation of areas of the West Bank, apparently out and proud in declaring what they want, and wanting it now.

  20. Ad 20

    What if we took the criticism as if it meant something?

    Lorde is playing Russia. Russia, together with Iran, is the primary victorious force who has defeated ISIS in Syria and all other Syrian opposition militia.

    Russia, together with Iran, have secured even more military bases in Syria.

    Syria borders Israel.

    Iran’s leadership want to see Israel destroyed.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel

    Since the establishment of Israel, Israel and Syria have been in a state of war.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–Syria_relations

    Russia, and Iran, have both been in support of a genocidal regime in Syria and are ensuring that he is in power for as long as he is alive.

    Iran, Russia, and Syria are now threats to Israel.

    So it’s not really a surprise that the poster asks Lorde to boycott her Russia concert as well.

    I’m sure she will be a star to the left, and it takes guts.

    But if Lorde is going to be consequential about her decision to boycott her Tel Aviv concert, maybe the message from the poster is right.

    • boggis the cat 20.1

      There is no disputing Israeli actions in the West Bank and Gaza.

      Syria is far more complicated and nuanced, and accusing Russia of backing genocide in that war is more dubious than accusing the USA of backing genocide in Palestine (and many other countries, at many times).

    • It’s possible to come up with reasons why a person might not want to have dealings with any country you can name. So Rabbi Shmuel’s criticism has to do a bit better than that – it needs to come up with something that would make Syria an equivalent target to Israel for boycott, divestment and sanctions. In Israel’s case, it’s occupying and colonising another country, and the victims have requested people to boycott Israel in response. In Syria’s case, it’s undergoing a civil war and nobody’s asked for a boycott. In short, no relevant equivalence. Russia’s even less relevant.

      • Ad 20.2.1

        The Rabbi names the other place that she is touring: Russia.
        The question the Rabbi is asking is why not boycott Russia as well?
        There are plenty of UN sanctions against Russia already, so it is quite consistent to seek the same treatment.

        • SPC 20.2.1.1

          No. They are not UN sanctions – Russia has a UNSC veto. They are sanctions placed by the EU/NATO and a few other US hangers on go along with it, Oz – and yes us.

          This is a reprise of the private boycott against apartheid (when there was no western nation state first world one).

          They are there because of Crimea/Ukraine.

          • Ad 20.2.1.1.1

            My apologies.

            Sanctions against Russia from all of the EU, US, Canada, Australia, ourselves, and Scandinavia.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_sanctions_during_the_Ukrainian_crisis

            New Zealand has made its position against Russia pretty clear, so Lorde is being called to be consistent with that.

            • SPC 20.2.1.1.1.1

              There is no campaign for private individuals to boycott Russia. No other individual in the USA, EU etc has done this, nor till now has anyone been asked to do so (as far as I know).

              Israel is not even part of the Russian boycott etc, I suppose they knew they were in no moral position to do so – besides Russia has recognised Jerusalem as their capital, so all is sweet between them, Palestine offers the Russians nothing.

              • Ad

                Your first point doesn’t answer Rabbi Boteach’s point:
                He is asking her to agree to an individual boycott of her Russian concert, just as Palestinian activists asked her to make an individual boycott of her Israeli concert.

                The question is not whether the Russian and israeli boycotts have anything to do with each other. The Rabbi is showing pretty simply that Lorde has not defined any limiting principle for where her reactions about reversing concerts on political grounds start and end.

                There is no extracting the moral quandaries Lorde has stepped in, and it is a decision that will permanently affect her market.

                • SPC

                  She has been asked to join an existing boycott – a reasonable thing to ponder.

                  And she has been asked to apply a personal boycott (of Russia) where none currently is organised or promoted, and this by someone opposed to her joining an existing one. Not something many people would spend much time on.

                  The reason Israeli is singled out for this boycott, as the apartheid state was before it, was disquiet in western society about injustice their governments were not confronting. Their governments are confronting Russia.

                  • Ad

                    The first request was certainly worth pondering.

                    The second is a matter of principle. Lorde however is already experiencing how important this principle really is.

                    It will continue to mount in cost to her, particularly as other musicians make the same point by choosing to play in Israel. It becomes a simple moment of principle in every tour of every artist. This principle will matter for her massive US market a whole bunch more than what she makes out of New Zealand.

                    Governments certainly are confronting Israel – as we have seen in the UN they are stronger in their condemnation of Israel than they are of Russia.

                • He is asking her to agree to an individual boycott of her Russian concert, just as Palestinian activists asked her to make an individual boycott of her Israeli concert.

                  1. He has no standing to request such a boycott, being neither Russian nor a citizen of anywhere being victimised by Russia.

                  2. Who cares what an obnoxious bigot wants?

              • francesca

                Not quite accurate. First of all Russia said that it considered East Jerusalem to be the capital of a future Palestinian State, and that it recognises West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. They nowhere talk about an undivided Jerusalem that is Israel’s capital

                https://www.timesofisrael.com/putin-deeply-concerned-over-us-jerusalem-recognition/

        • Psycho Milt 20.2.1.2

          The question the Rabbi is asking is why not boycott Russia as well?

          And the answers to his question are:

          1. Russia isn’t currently occupying and colonising another country in a racist project to replace the original inhabitants with its own people.

          2. Which means, neither the people of that non-existent country nor Russians are calling for boycott, divestment and sanctions against Russia.

          That said, Rabbi Shmuel isn’t genuinely asking a question – he’s posting right-wing racist propaganda because he’s a bigot.

    • reason 20.3

      You do talk ( post ) shit AD

      Heres a link to a post about people who spread it much better than you ….

      “The organization Avaaz was instrumental in building public approval for the No Fly Zone for the illegal invasion of Libya in 2011. The NATO-led destabilization/illegal war in Libya resulted in the annihilation of a formerly sovereign country that has since descended into brutal chaos. Tens upon thousands of Libyans died and the most savage ethnic cleansing that the mind can imagine has been widespread. The destruction of Libya has been nothing less than a full-scale bloodbath.” http://www.wrongkindofgreen.org/2014/09/17/syria-avaaz-purpose-the-art-of-selling-hate-for-empire/

      Check out the picture of John Key as a white knight http://i2.wp.com/www.wrongkindofgreen.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/RacistAvaazAd.jpg?w=720

      And finally a tribute video to a local man killed by the Nato installed neo-nazi Kiev Junta/regime in the Ukraine … The people you support AD do nazi salutes when dancing … https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfiU8-th2HQ

      • reason 20.3.1

        Ukrainian soldiers dancing nazi style at about the 4 minutes 30 second mark ..

      • SPC 20.3.2

        Is a gummy bear bit-coin now in cyberspace for you to collect?

      • Ad 20.3.3

        People can make up their own mind about Avaaz via the moderated Wikipedia post here:

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avaaz

        Not quite sure the relevance of your other links.
        Go ahead and explain.

        • reason 20.3.3.1

          Wikipedia ???? Is Cameron Slater still editing out real facts for Judith Collins benefit, on her Wiki page ??? …. Moderating it

          Thats Wikipedia for you …..

          Facts that Wiki leaves out ….“Avaaz was created in part by MoveOn, a Democratic Party associated Political Action Committee (or PAC), formed in response to the impeachment of President Clinton. Avaaz and MoveOn are funded in part by convicted inside-trader and billionaire hedge fund mogul, George Soros.” ~ SYRIA: Avaaz, Purpose & the art of selling hate for Empire.” http://www.wrongkindofgreen.org/tag/the-white-helmets/

          The Western nations have been uniting against Muslims more effectively, with more open military aggression, and with more desire to see them wiped out in my living memory, than anything Russia has generated.

          Palestine …. Lebanon ….. Iraq …… Afghanistan ……Libya ……. Syria. Well over a Million people murdered …. millions more made refugees.

          My links were to demonstrate the bullshit and lies we receive as propaganda …. the sort you spread Ad.

          Now go chew on SPCs gummy bear.

    • mauī 20.4

      This “genocidal regime” is hard to get your head around. Hundreds of thousands of Syrians returned mostly to Aleppo last year where the “freedom fighting rebels” (read that as overseas mercenaries, ISIS, etc) were defeated by the so called “genocidal regime”. They gave reasons for returning such as securing their assets/homes and a better economic future. Strange things for people on mass to be talking about going back to living under a ruler committing so called mass atrocities.

      https://www.iom.int/news/over-600000-displaced-syrians-returned-home-first-7-months-2017

  21. Sabine 21

    this whole thing has become a farce.

    i pity the girl.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 21.1

      She’s probably just enjoying her summer, and work. Fame always brings its detractors.

      • In Vino 21.1.1

        Judging by the intelligence she shows in her music and lyrics (I am 71 yrs old, but have bought both her CDs because I think such talent should be supported) I doubt that she is about to crack under pressure.
        I am looking forward to her next album, assuming I live long enough…

        • Incognito 21.1.1.1

          If you avoid the RWNJs here or anywhere then I can’t see any reason why you wouldn’t have quite a few more good years ahead of you.

    • Incognito 21.2

      i pity the girl. [my bold]

      Interesting choice of words …

      • Sabine 21.2.1

        I am an old women, so to me she is a girl, a young women. Said in a loving, admiring and very respectful voice by a women who will hopefully have some more years to watch her grow into a beautiful strong women, a middleaged broad and eventually in a stunningly beautiful crone full of wisdom and hopefully with a barren field of fucks to give.

        You know, the way we grow old.

        But in regards to the politics, the machinations of the media, the users and the paddlers of influence and bullshit she is but a girl all of 21 years old.

        You were saying?

  22. Penny Bright 22

    Seen this?

    Thousands march in Tel Aviv to protest against Netanyahu, corruption.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-netanyahu-protests/thousands-march-in-tel-aviv-to-protest-against-netanyahu-corruption-idUSKBN1E30RW

    (Reuters) – Thousands of Israelis protested in Tel Aviv on Saturday for the second consecutive week against government corruption and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who is under criminal investigation over allegations of abuse of office.

    • Ad 22.1

      They have a long road to go before that protest means anything useful.

      The next election in Israel is in November 2019.

      Protest would actually have to mean not just the left coalition being able to block the hard-right government now in place, it would also have to gain in sufficient up port to be a credible government by itself.

      • SPC 22.1.1

        The Knesset has passed with a bare majority 64 votes legislation to require any peace process ceding any Jerusalem land to have Knesset sanction (they call for a 2/3rd majority – 80 of 120 MK’s).

        As for Likud the party is now in favour of … annexing the West Bank …

        • Ad 22.1.1.1

          That’s the really tough thing.
          The shape of the West Bank is now so Israeli-settled that it has rendered the Oslo Accords pretty moot and of historical interest now only. The UN resolutions have no force, and no use.

          It’s not defensible really, but it’s not reversible either.

          • SPC 22.1.1.1.1

            Their strategy is double edged, the same legislation just passed also allows them to change the municipal borders of Jerusalem, there are suggestions they could remove some Arab neighbourhoods from the city (permanently wall them out), all while looking at annexing the wider West Bank – threatening to de-legitimise the PA for daring to stand up to the state of Israel internationally.

  23. smilin 23

    I wonder if our Auckland Settlements and the ones in the rest of the country , ie selling state houses is upsetting the indigenous or multi generational citizens of NZ to the same degree or has up til the change of govt .
    Just a dig but well ?

  24. SPC 24

    What has been developing, and will no doubt continue and become more and more apparent, is an attempt to unite the Jewish community worldwide behind the Likud Party ambition. That is identify with the nationalist project cause in their activism.

    Historically many of the diaspora have become part of their local community and become part of the progressive development of society, including common cause with other minorities – civil liberties/human rights activism. Which is a form of collective security for minorities at the local level that the collective security of nations is to the UN.

    How they deal with the disconnect between being on-side with the Israeli Zionist occupation and common cause with others will be interesting to observe. To question the nationalist imperative in defence of greater justice in every case but one is going to be defining. A light unto the nations, or just another national people corrupted by power, whenever the temptation to have it all presents itself (which for the diaspora involves selective morality, because confronting the nationalism of other Jews becomes too difficult … and all those they have lectured amongst the nations will note it, and not forget it).

    It is easy to call for justice when one does not have power (and has been the victim) , it is harder to practice it when one does and is advantaged in there not being any.

    • SPC 24.1

      What Likud is seeking to exercise in the Jewish community is the sort of thing Beijing is trying to do in ethnic Chinese communities around the world also.

      • Ad 24.1.1

        Surely that is what the left have been trying to do for the opposing parties by asking and successfully receiving the boycott in the first place.

        Did you really not expect a reaction like this?

        • SPC 24.1.1.1

          I would say the boycott has little to do with it, this is about departing from the peace process and going for the win, manifest injustice to the other party.

          The Likud dominance of the domestic political scene being promoted to the wider Jewish world as their nationalist reality, to fall into line with.

          • Anne 24.1.1.1.1

            I think your analysis is spot on SPC.

            My own thoughts would be to hope that Jewish people around the world – in large part because of their distance from the ‘mother-land’ – would be able to maintain an objective stance and not allow themselves to be manipulated by the Likud govt. Bit of an ask I suppose.

          • Ad 24.1.1.1.2

            The Arab nations have been uniting against Israel more effectively, with more open military aggression, and with more desire to see them wiped out in my living memory, than anything the Likud has generated. It is quite unsurprising that the Netanyahu government is trying to rally support worldwide.

            I have no support for israel’s active rebuking of UN directions. I would agree that Israel have pretty much ensured that no two-state solution is possible, and that is a serious rebuke to a Palestininan mandate for their own state.

            • SPC 24.1.1.1.2.1

              Do not agree

              1. the Arab world has been absorbed with its own internal issues (Sunni vs Shia) or has a working relationship – Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia.
              2. the chance of a UN General Assembly declaring its recognition for a Palestinian state on 67 borders has never been higher.

              While Israel is secure from UN sanctions because of the USA veto, the ones against Russia demonstrate that this is no guarantee they will not occur.

            • Psycho Milt 24.1.1.1.2.2

              The Arab nations have been uniting against Israel more effectively, with more open military aggression, and with more desire to see them wiped out in my living memory, than anything the Likud has generated. It is quite unsurprising that the Netanyahu government is trying to rally support worldwide.

              The Black African states were united against Apartheid-era South Africa too, for the same reason, and with about the same ability to do anything about it militarily. And yes, just like the Apartheid-era South African government, the Israeli one is trying to rally support worldwide, and like them, succeeding mostly among right-wingers and racists.

  25. Mad Plumber 25

    If you feel upset enough you can send a letter to the editor of the Washington Post.
    letters@washpost.com

  26. Ken 26

    What Lorde got was a full page advertisement in one of USA’s leading newspapers, but do Lorde’s fans read newspapers? – How many people listen to their Rabbi?
    For every one turned off by that advertisement, another one will be turned on
    Kids hear……blah blah…..Lord….Blah blah, and the fact that all this is a bit controversial should ensure that Lorde continues to make headlines every time she plays any other country with a poor human rights record.

  27. Ken 27

    It’s a glorious propaganda poster straight out of the thirties – I’d love to frame a copy……I bet Ella’s got a few.

  28. R.P. Mcmurphy 28

    New University course this year. How to fix the worlds problems 101.

  29. Sanctuary 29

    The Israeli lobby isn’t used to being told off.

    The whole of “K street” is the USA is completely colonised by Israeli interests, who have in some ways acted as a Bolshevik vanguard party to infiltrate and control US foreign policy towards Israel. After some anti-Israeli comments by me an American friend of mine familiar with Washington beltway establishment politics told me in no uncertain terms that any criticism of Israeli influence or of the Israeli government was absolutely forbidden in the USA, the penalty for criticism being coming to the attention of a well oiled, well connected and far reaching character and career assassination network designed to bully and browbeat opposing views into silence within the political establishment.

    A similar attempt to set and control the narrative of a powerful western government, actively sponsored by the Israeli government, has occurred in the UK – hence the smears of anti-semitism hurled at Jeremy Corbyn by Labour’s “Friends of Israel” parliamentary group as he threatens the power of the Israel Lobby.

    New Zealand has few Jews living here and the Israeli lobbying influence is limited and often (IMHO, Slater is clearly getting paid by the Israeli government) very unwise.

    In terms of the likes of Shmulay Boteach, his recourse to crude and vulgar tactics to bully and blacken anyone who opposes Israel is a timely reminder of the corrosive moral influence the occupation of Palestine by the Israelis is having on their society.

    This stuff attacking Lorde is just the thrashings about of the edges of a big, powerful bully used to getting its own way, and if opposed physically having an easy option of a massive advantage in military violence to enforce it’s will. We are novel; A democratic, successful, pluralistic sovereign nation that is to far away for them to threaten to use military force against, and that inability to resort to threats of physical intimidation is what frustrates the hell out of the likes of Shmulay Boteach.

    Nietzsche is relevant when discussing what has become of Israel since the first intifada in 1987:
    “He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster.
    And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into you.”

    • greywarshark 29.1

      Makes me think of South African under apartheid and Sun City and the strength of the state and the depths they would go to there against anyone who spoke against them. Steve Biko comes to mind, as good a person as Mandela, injured badly and, under the guise of getting to the nearest hospital that could treat black people, driven miles with little or no intermediate medical help, instead as I remember, lying on the floor of a van bumping painfully along second grade roads. Died.

      That resulted from an impervious arrogant entitled humanity-diminished attitude that is very injurious to every soul who comes near it, whichever side they may be on. It is very important to keep our ability for deep viciousness compressed and inactive. Anyone who says go for it and punish and annihilate these people, they are no good, should be answered with the biblical quote of ‘ Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.’ That was what Jesus set out to change from the past as described in the Old Testament. It is also a practical approach; it is obvious that memories of past trauma can be revived and lead to worst, as embers from an apparently dead fire can be quickened by a sharp wind.

      (The NZ fire service have warned about this recently, month-old embers can be fanned into blazing destroyers so watch out you are doubly careful with any firelighting, and take responsibility for seeing that it is put out with water, stamping, more water, opened up more stamping.)

      The Jewish people know that deep viciousness from their awful experience in Germany, and numerous large attacks on them in various locations over past centuries. That they can fall into the same mindset in the atmosphere of fear constantly heightened, and thinking they are entitled to retaliate with blunt force to threats or lesser retaliation, leaves them in an unholy situation where they will never find peace and absolution for themselves as well as others who have caused them harm.

      We should be praying for the people in Israel who truly need our love as Jesus is supposed to have said to God “Forgive them – for they know not what they do’. They suffered such a grievous attack in WW2 that their fears can be preyed upon by the armed forces who build on those fears and manipulate the antipathy so the army/forces connections can stay in power.

      It is political power in the end that will win over morality. I read about the two days before the decision was given for the USA to drop the nuclear bombs on Japan. A big part in the decision to order the pilot of Enola Gay to let them go, was the view that USA people would have a grievance against their government for the extra deaths that would occur as they took longer to bring the war to a close without using the bomb. They had it ready, why not use it as everyone was weary of the war and the Japanese had behaved abominably? And the grateful populace would re-elect the government. Some attention was paid to the lack of morality, and the precedent caused, but morality was soon overcome, enticed down a dark alley and strangled, as the saying goes.

  30. Tanz 30

    Just another snowflake who caved into the PC brigade. Something Bowie, Springsteen or U2 never would have done! Go Israel, God’s finest.

  31. Ed 31

    Russell Brown’s take on the whole issue.

    ‘Lorde’s Call

    What do these musical artists have in common? Alt-J, Tricky, the Skatalites, Mulatu Astatke, Mac DeMarco, Calexico, M83, The Residents, Tame Impala, Freddie Gibbs, Thundercat and the Sun Ra Arkestra.

    Answer: they have all played, or are soon to play, shows in Israel managed by Naranjah, the same company that was promoting the now-cancelled Lorde show in Tel Aviv. They don’t appear on the lists of artists whose names are treated as endorsements by the Israeli government and its cheerleaders, and they largely haven’t been called out by those who believe Israel’s policies should make it a pariah. As far as I’m aware, no one asked them what they thought about The Situation………..’

    https://t.co/cHgbDB5CGm?amp=1

  32. Ken 32

    How about Murray McCully?

    “Just over a year ago New Zealand was accused of committing an act of war by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu when it fronted a Security Council resolution to condemn the continued building of Israeli settlements on Palestinian land.”

  33. reason 33

    I’m surprised Israel supporters would want to bring up Syria …… It might cause people to look at what Israel has been doing against the inhabitants of this country …,. let alone what Israel do to Palestinians.

    Robert Fisk ……”Imprisonment without trial, extrajudicial executions, human rights abuses, corruption, military rule – let’s say this at once: all these characteristics belong to “almost all” Sunni Muslim Arab nations – and to Israel, in the lands it occupies. And as for being a “supporter of terror” (I quote Israeli minister Kara again), one must first ask why Sunni Gulf Arabs have exported their fighters – and their money – to the most vicious Sunni Islamists in the Middle East. And then ask why Israel has never bombed these same vile creatures – indeed, ask why Israel has given hospital treatment to wounded fighters from the Sunni al-Nusra – in other words, al-Qaeda, the perpetrators of 9/11 – while attacking Shiite Hezbollah and Alawite (Shiite) led-Syria, and threatened to bombard Shiite Iran itself.. ” http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=156163

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2014/09/12/how-the-west-created-the-islamic-state/

  34. corodale 34

    Towards peace,

    The General’s Son: Journey of an Israeli in Palestine, Miko Pelen, 1997.

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/14649174-the-general-s-son

  35. lloyd 35

    I keep waiting for someone to point out the fact that the only long term hope for the survival of Israel as a democratic Jewish nation is the two country solution.

    The Israelis don’t publicise the fact that the Palestinians are out-breeding the Jews of Israel. If Israel expands to take over all the west bank and the Gaza strip, as seems the desire of most Zionists, then we can expect the majority of the citizens of the enlarged Israel to be Muslim. I cannot understand why Zionists seem to be so all-fired up in this land-grabbing mode – it is counter to the long term interest of the state of Israel as a democratic and Jewish state. The expanded state that Israel is heading towards will have to have non-democratic apartheid-like rules if the Jewish minority wish to keep power. The ultimate end of such expansionism will be an overthrow of the Jewish nation with the replacement most likely an oppressive Muslim regime.

    A boycott of expansionist Zionism could be seen as support of a stable Jewish nation.

    • Brewer 35.1

      A “democratic Jewish nation” is an oxymoron.
      No state can be both democratic and dedicated to one racial/religious identity.

  36. Brian Tregaskin 36

    Brian Eno shares letter to Lorde, thanks her for showing ‘courage’

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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
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