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Open mike 06/08/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:30 am, August 6th, 2014 - 272 comments
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openmikeOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

272 comments on “Open mike 06/08/2014 ”

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  1. Ad 1
    6 August 2014 at 6:57 am

    Hope Theo Speirings is having a little pause for thought about his strategy of following China’s great sucking engine to bulk and lower-end value products as our national basis for pastoral wealth.

  2. miravox 2
    6 August 2014 at 7:08 am

    It’s not very often I’d link to a Daily Mail article, but these pics of Gaza tell a story that show this devastation by the Israelis will echo for years in the Middle East – even if Israeli does meet its objective of clearing Gaza.

    • Rosie 2.1
      6 August 2014 at 9:36 am

      Thank you miravox. Those pictures illustrate what daily life must be like for Palestinians during this genocide.

      The scale of horror and the depth of grief is hard enough for the world to comprehend and digest let alone imagine being Palestinian.

      Everyone has probably seen this as it’s been floating around the net for days but I’ve only just heard this letter being read out on the 9am radio news in place of the usual news. The description of the treatment of Palestinians, adults and children by the settlers was particularly sobering:

      http://stopwar.org.uk/news/today-i-saw-a-weeping-palestinian-man-holding-a-plastic-bag-of-meat-it-was-his-son#.U-FHuuOSzeB

      • Ennui 2.1.1
        6 August 2014 at 12:00 pm

        I just cannot reconcile the psychology of a “race” who suffered from genocide permitting themselves the position of genocidal maniacs.

        • Rosie 2.1.1.1
          6 August 2014 at 12:34 pm

          It’s a puzzling phenomenon Ennui.

          The psychology of such a position must surely be studied and debated by those working in the field.

          Psychology has it’s origins in some very talented Jewish people, the pioneers of the study of the mind in the late 19th century. Alfred Adler in particular stood out and took the concepts of Freud, refined them and whose theories contributed toward the evolution of psychotherapy.

          The Adlerian approach looks at the individual in a holistic sense and considers social equality as a factor in their well being. I have been wondering lately what students and practitioners of the Adlerian movement (and other humanistic branches of psychology) would make of a culture giving life to their ancestral and collective rage, grief and oppression and turning an another culture, as undeserving of such cruelty as they were in the first place.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Adler

        • swordfish 2.1.1.2
          6 August 2014 at 2:29 pm

          “I just cannot reconcile the psychology of a “race” who suffered from genocide permitting themselves the position of genocidal maniacs”

          Need to separate-out (1) European Holocaust victims and (2) Zionists in Palestine. Their identity and interests are too often conflated.

          I think the first thing to understand is that the Zionism on which Israel was established emerged from precisely the same deeply reactionary, anti-Enlightenment ideological mix (German/East European Romantic Nationalism and Imperialism) that so greatly inspired and animated the Nazis. ‘Blut und Bone’. Violent Ethnic-cleansing has always been implicit in that sort of extreme ethno-nationalist ideology where the emphasis is on membership of the prescribed ‘Race’ / ‘Blood’ / ‘Culture’ over universalist ideas of Equality and Citizenship. The aim was always to militarily carve-out an ethnically-pure (or failing that, overwhelmingly Jewish) ‘Greater Israel’ on Palestinian land (before Zionist colonisation got fully underway in the early 20C, Palestinian Arabs had comprised well over 90% of the population for more than 1300 years, with the tiny, indigenous Jewish community making up less than 5%. What’s more, that small indigenous Jewish community was overwhelmingly anti-Zionist and most of their descendants remain so. Important, I think, to remember that whenever you hear the line that this is some sort of ancient Arab-Jewish conflict that has gone on in Palestine for centuries. The kind of tosh that regularly emanates from the “pro”-Israel lobby).

          It was, of course, a reaction to (at times, pretty vicious) anti-Semitism in Europe, the Baltic States and Russia, but the thing is Zionists completely accepted and internalised the deeply conservative ethno-nationalism underpinning that anti-Semitism, taking it as a prescription for a future Zionist state. If you look at early Zionist views of the Jewish community in Europe you’ll find they were remarkably similar to the vicious racial stereotypes of the more extreme 19C anti-semites (which were, of course, later adopted by the Nazis). The middle-class German Jews at the heart of the early Zionist movement entirely accepted all of those anti-Jewish stereotypes and argued that the way to change these alleged traits was to do for the Jews what the anti-Semitic ultra-conservative German Nationalists wanted to do for Germany – create an ethnically-homogenous homeland where they could create their conception of a new, self-respecting Jewish-Settler, plough in one hand, gun in the other, using force to carve-out this new ethnically-pure Eretz Israel.

          On top of that, it pays to remember that the Israeli Right were openly fascist during the first half of the 20C. Jabotinsky’s Revisionist movement (from which Sharon and Netanyahu’s Likud Party emerged) greatly admired Mussolini and their Irgun and Stern gang terrorist groups of course included two future Israeli PMs. In the end, though, as far as attitudes to the colonisation of Palestine are concerned, they were little different in their ethos to Ben-Gurion’s Israeli Labour Party (and its precursors) and the mainstream Haganah (forebear of the IDF).

          Second thing is: the Yishuv (pre-Israeli State Zionist community in Palestine) and its leaders like Ben-Gurion had a very dodgy relationship with the Holocaust. A good deal of collaboration took place with both the Nazis and other anti-Semitic leaders and groups in Europe / the Baltic nations in order to encourage Jewish emigration to Palestine (including an ultimately successful Zionist campaign to end an American Jewish-organised economic boycott of Nazi Germany). Strenuous efforts to prevent European Jews escaping Germany/Mainland Europe to Britain and the US (for the Yishuv leaders it had to be Palestine or nothing). The bullying of Holocaust survivors in immediate post-war Displaced Persons Camps (the US allowed Zionist groups from Palestine to take over many of these camps, and Holocaust survivors – the vast majority of whom wanted to go to the US – were largely forced through coercion (including outright violence) to emigrate to Palestine instead).

          And when Holocaust survivors arrived in Israel, they were treated abominably by a sizeable portion of Israeli society, particularly by State officials (albeit with honourable exceptions). All of which is best encapsulated by the derisive Yishuv slang name for Holocaust survivors “soap” (based on the now-discredited idea that Holocaust victims’ bodies had been turned into soap by the Nazis). The survivors were deemed shameful by Zionists because they and the 6 Million victims were considered to have gone like lambs to the slaughter – whereas Zionism was all about celebrating the self-respecting, gun-toting, take-no-prisoners Zionist Jew. Many survivors were forced – again against their will – to fight in the 1948 War. Many, having survived the Holocaust against all the odds (and still greatly traumatised) went on to die in that War for an Israeli nation that largely despised them.

          The Holocaust, of course, only became important to Israel after its leaders decided it could be of political use to close down criticism of Israeli policies (largely after Adolf Eichmann’s trial in 1962). It’s been said that to this day a disproportionate number of Holocaust survivors and their descendants live below the poverty line in Israel (some 50,000 by one recent estimate). Meanwhile, Israeli banks continue to refuse to return money to the families of Holocaust victims who had deposited significant sums in Zionist banks in pre-Israel Palestine. It’s an on-going scandal. So much for Israel’s solemn Holocaust Remembrance Day.

          • Rosie 2.1.1.2.1
            6 August 2014 at 3:48 pm

            Thank you Swordfish. That’s a very helpful historical background and goes quite some way to providing an explanation for current behaviours. It’s also an education. (for myself at least)

          • Anne 2.1.1.2.2
            6 August 2014 at 4:36 pm

            Thanks so much for that swordship. Hugely helpful to my understanding of the reality of Israel and Palestine.

            I was (note WAS) one of those who for years fell for the Israeli Government line that they were the oppressed ones. Indeed I even considered the Palestinians to be mad and dangerous. I hang my head in shame. My own experiences in England 40 odd years ago (I lived for a couple of years with Jewish people married to relatives of mine) suggest there were many good Jewish people of English origin who were equally taken in.

            Israel will get its come-uppance one day. It may happen in a different way to Natzi Germany but the world is finally waking up to them. I no longer turn a hair when we are confronted on the Telly with the death of Israeli soldiers etc. Good riddance!

            • Chooky 2.1.1.2.2.1
              6 August 2014 at 4:42 pm

              “I just cannot reconcile the psychology of a “race” who suffered from genocide permitting themselves the position of genocidal maniacs”

              Richard Dawkins also has an answer…patriarchal monotheism…otherwise known as Religious Fundamentalism. In 2006 Richard Dawkins wrote in ‘The God Delusion’:

              “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant
              character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust,
              unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a
              misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal,
              pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent
              bully.”

      • miravox 2.1.2
        6 August 2014 at 7:28 pm

        I hadn’t seen Brian Eno’s letter before, so thanks for posting Rosie. Agree with Ennui about incomprehension of people who suffered the Holocaust causing wiping out Gaza. Beyond the psychological context – maybe this para from Eno explains some of social/cultural context (which also ties in with swordfish’s explanation).

        By the way, most of them are not ethnic Israelis – they’re ‘right of return’ Jews from Russia and Ukraine and Moravia and South Africa and Brooklyn who came to Israel recently with the notion that they had an inviolable (God-given!) right to the land, and that ‘Arab’ equates with ‘vermin’ – straightforward old-school racism delivered with the same arrogant, shameless swagger that the good ole boys of Louisiana used to affect. That is the culture our taxes are defending. It’s like sending money to the Klan.

        As for the apologists for the Israeli action in Gaza – if they don’t have an empathetic bone in their body after seeing images of total destruction of people and place, maybe this paragraph will resonate with their desire to prevent the ‘islamification of the west’, if nothing else. I can only hope they then think again about the strategy of Israel and enabling western governments.

        But beyond this, what really troubles me is the bigger picture. Like it or not, in the eyes of most of the world, America represents ‘The West’. So it is The West that is seen as supporting this war, despite all our high-handed talk about morality and democracy. I fear that all the civilisational achievements of The Enlightenment and Western Culture are being discredited – to the great glee of the mad Mullahs – by this flagrant hypocrisy. The war has no moral justification that I can see – but it doesn’t even have any pragmatic value either. It doesn’t make Kissingerian ‘Realpolitik’ sense; it just makes us look bad.

        • Rosie 2.1.2.1
          6 August 2014 at 8:27 pm

          The paragraph about the “right of return” Jews made me recall the South African Jewish family I worked for, for many years.

          Their fairness as an employer and their hospitality towards guests (including us as employee’s) always seemed in complete contrast to the way they switched to an arrogant assumption in regard their “rights” in their “homeland”, meaning Israel, not S.A, when any tentative conversation came up about Israel and Palestine. There was a bloody mindedness present during these brief discussions that was at odds with how they presented themselves otherwise. Something kind of primal surfaced and no amount of everyday respectability could hide it.

          This sense of superiority led one of the family members to go to Israel to train in the army, and to be ready for “when the time came”. I think about her and wonder whether she has gone as a reservist. I’m hoping that motherhood settled this bloodlust and made her consider the lives of children of other mothers.

  3. phillip ure 3
    6 August 2014 at 7:17 am

    cunnliffe just had a trainwreck interview on tv3..

    ..refusing to even talk about dotcom etc..(!)..

    ..he was playing some sorta ‘hard-man’-role..

    ..it was entirely unbelievable..

    • The Al1en 3.1
      6 August 2014 at 7:24 am

      You must have a bit of weed in your eyes, that’s not the interview I just watched.
      He said KD had been told to respect the campaign message of vote positive up north, he said mana won’t be in his government but can support it but it’s their decision, got a good hit on kimmy by saying said kdc donated to act not labour.

      Will check your pro hone spin and bias in a bit.

      • Tangled_up 3.1.1
        6 August 2014 at 9:07 am

        The 6pm one news story:

        The Internet Mana Party won’t be a part of any coalition with Labour.

        http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/dotcom-won-t-part-labour-coalition-6047467

        I don’t have anything against IMP or their policies but imo because Kim & Hone are so despised by most voters; then this is a good political move by Labour.

        • The Al1en 3.1.1.1
          6 August 2014 at 9:12 am

          “this is a good political move by Labour.”

          Yes, very smart electioneering. Well done team red.

          “because Kim & Hone are so despised by most voters”

          Nailed it, but expect backlash. There’s a minor party infestation on the standard most days, yet although they’re very vocal and quite feral, they’re marginalised and fringe dwelling pussies (as in puddy cats) in reality.

          • just saying 3.1.1.1.1
            6 August 2014 at 9:36 am

            ..they’re marginalised and fringe dwelling…

            God forbid marginalised people being part of the democratic process. Better to throw us under the bus. Not officially Labour policy yet though, The Alien. But yeah, we can read the writing on the wall.

            Pity we aren’t mainstream People Who Matter, like your good self.

            • The Al1en 3.1.1.1.1.1
              6 August 2014 at 9:39 am

              Put it in the politically charged context of “expect backlash. There’s a minor party infestation on the standard most days, yet although they’re very vocal and quite feral, they’re marginalised and fringe dwelling pussies”

              “Pity we aren’t mainstream People Who Matter, like your good self”

              That you have an inferiority complex isn’t my fault.
              For the record, I love everyone and value them all equally as human beings without exception.

              • just saying …
                6 August 2014 at 9:51 am

                I don’t feel inferior. I’m sure you are clever enough to recognise sarcasm

                But I do think the belief that being marginalised = not or less worth paying attention to is incompatible with any kind of progressive or left-wing belief system.

              • Chooky …
                6 August 2014 at 5:13 pm

                …”they’re very vocal and quite feral”….i am a feral Chooky

          • Rosie 3.1.1.1.2
            6 August 2014 at 10:13 am

            Hi Alien. I’m a two ticks Labour kinda girl this election and a supporter of IMP. I was hoping to see a strong and healthy Labour/Greens/IMP coalition after 20th September. By being a supporter of IMP I don’t consider myself a marginalised fringe dwelling pussy.

            I’m disappointed by this announcement. If a coalition can be formed with NZ First and The Greens, instead, it will still be celebrated. The corrupt Key regime being brought to an end is reason for celebration alone (my god there will be tears of happiness!) but it’s not the coalition of choice for this voter.

          • Draco T Bastard 3.1.1.1.3
            6 August 2014 at 12:48 pm

            There’s a minor party infestation on the standard most days, yet although they’re very vocal and quite feral,

            Most of all the feral comments I’ve seen are coming from you. That comment is a good example.

        • weka 3.1.1.2
          6 August 2014 at 12:16 pm

          “The Internet Mana Party won’t be a part of any coalition with Labour.”

          The headline currently reads:

          “Dotcom won’t be part of Labour coalition”

          Stupidest headline of the election campaign? Thanks TVNZ.

          Can people on ts please not buy into the bullshit that the IMP or even the IP = KDC?

          KDC is not a candidate and will in no way be part of the next government.

      • just saying 3.1.2
        6 August 2014 at 9:17 am

        For fucks sake, Phil Goff was contemplating joining ACT not so long ago, and seemed to have decided against it for reasons related to his own career. Labour’s stated policies are closer to ACT’s than Mana’s are. FFS the Labour party gave birth to the ACT – party they are freaking whanau.
        This is SO hyocritical

        • Clemgeopin 3.1.2.1
          6 August 2014 at 10:39 am

          @Just saying,
          You idiot! If I had the power, I would have banned you from this site for spouting such unfair defaming crap against Mr Phil Goff and the Labour party. By all means, criticise Labour, but don’t spout untrue, unjust, utter crap.

          • just saying 3.1.2.1.1
            6 August 2014 at 11:03 am

            From Liberation:

            http://liberation.typepad.com/liberation/2009/02/act-party-history-16-recruitment-of-party-hopping-mps.html

            Act also ‘revealed that it had held talks with Labour’s Phil Goff about his joining Act’ (Scott, 16 March 1996: pp.16-17).

            To put it into context, this from Goff’s wikipedia page:

            In the 1990 elections, Labour was defeated, and Goff lost his own parliamentary seat to Gilbert Myles. While many commentators blamed Douglas’s controversial reforms for Labour’s loss, Goff said that the main problem had been in communication, not policy

            • Anne 3.1.2.1.1.1
              6 August 2014 at 4:51 pm

              As someone on the inside in those days just saying: I can inform you ACT had talks with many politicians and former politicians from both Labour and National in the hope of attracting them to join the ACT Party. All of the approaches came from the ACT Party, and I know of at least one well known former Labour politician who was so incensed by their persistence he and his wife threatened to take action against them if they didn’t leave them alone.

              In other words, Phil Goff was one of many and he turned them down flat. Not interested!

              • just saying …
                6 August 2014 at 7:34 pm

                Hi Anne,
                If he turned them down flat, as so many did, it would be a non-issue. He was in talks with ACT about taking over as leader. He decided against it. As it turns out it was a good choice from a career point of view.

                Even considering joining an extreme right-wing party is extremely damning.

                Sadly, I think if he had been talking with the Alliance or The Greens in the 90s he would have been out the door. Which is also damning. but for the party.

    • phillip ure 3.2
      6 August 2014 at 7:28 am

      followed by harawira who gave good-interview..

      (both interviews will be on the tv3 website..)

      • The Al1en 3.2.1
        6 August 2014 at 7:36 am

        He had a shocker to be fair, first calling for Kelvin to be sacked then being turned around to changing it to ‘let’s forget it’.
        Wilson put it that KD sort of had a right to campaign for more funding, being faced by a $3m kitty, hone whinged he had less money in past elections and that right wing bloggers had donated to it, though didn’t say if the donations were named, which of course blunts the attack.
        When asked to respond to the position held by many many people that the mip is just a vehicle for kdc to avoid extradition, all he did was list the roadshow venues.

        Limited appeal to limited intellect voters.
        Still vote Labour and Green to change the government without relying on extremists and opportunists.

        • TheContrarian 3.2.1.1
          6 August 2014 at 9:03 am

          Totally with you here Al1en

          • The Al1en 3.2.1.1.1
            6 August 2014 at 9:18 am

            I’ve known for a while it’s not just me.
            I’m sure many feel the same but don’t want to post for fear of having to deal with the vocal minority extremist clique.
            Lucky I have a bit of free time at the moment and skin thicker than the average mip voter.
            I’m proudly red and green and won’t easily be shouted down.

            • Tracey 3.2.1.1.1.1
              6 August 2014 at 9:25 am

              Do you think that some who didnt know whether to vote KD or HW might look at KD taking donations from right wingers as a push toward electorate vote Hone?

              I don’t honestly know what to make of it all but KD is putting me more and more in mind of another fellow from up North who was kind-of labour.

              • The Al1en …
                6 August 2014 at 9:29 am

                Like I wrote Tracey, I’ve not seen it reported that the donations were specifically sought from the right wingers, which would be bad, or if they were anonymous donations through the website, which KD would have no knowledge of.

                In my mind, KD shouldn’t have done the site as it’s a bit loose and off party line, but he’s quite correct to slam hone for his backing and backer and push the cause of the people in his electorate over hh self interest and kdc’s agenda.
                I don’t believe he’s SJ mk2 like some commentators would have you believe, after all, it’s their ‘job’ to demonise him.

            • Draco T Bastard 3.2.1.1.1.2
              6 August 2014 at 1:07 pm

              the vocal minority extremist clique.

              So, people who disagree with you are extremists?

              • weka …
                6 August 2014 at 1:10 pm

                Just if they’re riffraff 😀

                • weka …
                  6 August 2014 at 1:14 pm

                  I generally quite like The Al1en’s contributions to ts, but the anti-KDC/Mana thing strikes me as being ott and coming from an extreme place in itself. It’s kind of funny in a way. I’m a GP voter and I remember when exactly this kind of shit was aimed at the GP and their supporters. Kia kaha Mana and the IP, keep up the good works.

                  • The Al1en …
                    6 August 2014 at 1:39 pm

                    Thanks, but it’s a push back reaction rather than a form of out and out aggressive extremism on my part.
                    To be quite honest, I’ve had enough of the negativity from mip voters here, and probably won’t bother much after today.

                    Loonies taking over the asylum springs to mind as far as political and policy debate is concerned and woe betide any who disagree or push saner Green/Labour points.
                    Kim’s got dosh, maybe he could fund his own version of the standard.

                    • phillip ure …
                      6 August 2014 at 3:04 pm

                      cue violins…reach for tissues…

                    • The Al1en …
                      6 August 2014 at 3:44 pm

                      Cue fu*kwit, reach for a brick.

                      No violins mate, just a statement of fact, maybe only as I see it, but I doubt it.

                      Let’s face it pu, aside from your obvious anti green/labour agenda, you’re only here ’cause you’ve got nowhere else to go or no-one will have you – That and for pushing your unintelligible uninformed opinion blog.
                      Quantity you clearly have, quality, not so much. Not to get too personal about it, being on a politics site and all, but in economic terms, you’re a deficit to the bottom line, and who needs that? Not me.
                      Best you and your mip buddies carry on circle jerking your way through September, stifling debate as you go, and when you don’t get cabinet seats and control of anything post election, you can start all over again about how bad DC, MT and RN are and how bad these neo libs (or what ever the slogan of the day you pick up on is) are wrecking the country ad nauseum/infinitum.
                      Funniest thing, you know it’ll happen. 😉

                    • phillip ure …
                      6 August 2014 at 4:06 pm

                      recent example of my anti-green agenda..from open mike yesterday..

                      ..on their green-card promise..

                      “..that is a clever policy from the greens..”

                      (cutting..!..eh..?..)

                      and is he promising to exit stage-right..?..plse say it is so..!..

                      ..such a loose-unit..and such a whiner with it..

                    • The Al1en …
                      6 August 2014 at 4:33 pm

                      “such a loose-unit..and such a whiner with it.”

                      Ta ta nugget, enjoy your daisy chain circle jerk.
                      But funniest thing is, you know it’ll happen. 😉

                      “Watch the sky” she said.

                    • Chooky …
                      6 August 2014 at 5:19 pm

                      …dont go The Allen…we need you

                  • ropata …
                    6 August 2014 at 8:52 pm

                    @Al1en, agree totally with your sentiments about MIP, Hone and KDC … I liked Mana policies (pre-KDC) but their personnel are simply unelectable outside of Te Tai Tokerau.

                    A toxic brand with zero appeal to middle NZ.

                    • weka …
                      6 August 2014 at 8:58 pm

                      that would be the middle NZ that’s been sitting by letting the poverty gap become a chasm, letting our rivers fill up with cow shit and letting our assets be sold off overseas? (just to mention a few of the obvious ones).

                    • ropata …
                      6 August 2014 at 9:32 pm

                      stoopid left wing radical will never change anything

                    • weka …
                      6 August 2014 at 10:26 pm

                      You really think that no changes happen from the edges? Methinks you haven’t been paying attention.

                    • Chooky …
                      6 August 2014 at 11:22 pm

                      @ weka…i totally agree with you

        • Mark 3.2.1.2
          6 August 2014 at 9:33 am

          Limited intellect voters. Now that’s a sure way to win over the undecided. Just as arrogant as the arseholes we are trying to get rid of. If your an example of what an “intelligent” Labour person looks like, thanks but no thanks.

          • The Al1en 3.2.1.2.1
            6 August 2014 at 9:35 am

            “Now that’s a sure way to win over the undecided”

            Perhaps only the smarter ones.

            “If your an example”

            You made my point for me. Thanks for playing.

            • Tom Jackson 3.2.1.2.1.1
              6 August 2014 at 10:08 am

              I wouldn’t vote IMP, but you labelling others as thick is priceless.

              • marty mars …
                6 August 2014 at 10:30 am

                I will vote IMP and I too find the labelling priceless from allen – he’s on a secret mission from the right so never mind.

                • The Al1en …
                  6 August 2014 at 10:52 am

                  Secret mission 😆

                  • marty mars …
                    6 August 2014 at 11:03 am

                    Yeah good point you stuffed that up too lol

                    • The Al1en …
                      6 August 2014 at 11:24 am

                      Secret mission, from who? Name names or gtfo and stfu.

                      Having chips on both shoulders doesn’t necessarily make you balanced mars 😉 😆

                    • marty mars …
                      6 August 2014 at 11:42 am

                      Don’t tell me what to do fuckwit – stick to your dirty little campaign – oh and don’t forget the little violin when you go for your sympathy post.

                    • The Al1en …
                      6 August 2014 at 11:49 am

                      “Don’t tell me what to do fuckwit – stick to your dirty little campaign”

                      I’ll take the secret right wing mission bit as just a bs defam, divert put down then. I’m not surprised, given your form.
                      It’s hardly right wing to seek votes for a green/red ticket, but then I forget, you like your left a bit more ‘radical’. Mega lulz.

                      “oh and don’t forget the little violin when you go for your sympathy post.”

                      No tears this side of no regrets – Try again… Or don’t, whatever suits.

                    • The Al1en …
                      6 August 2014 at 12:15 pm

                      Yeah, you’re out of stones and all your glass house windows are gone.
                      Give up bro.

                    • marty mars …
                      6 August 2014 at 12:18 pm

                      see, not so hard to be nice is it rather than your usual spit-style of posting – keep it up and your shit reputation may even improve 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

                      edit oh you changed your post back to the usual – oh dear, what a pity, never mind

                      plus ‘bro’ is just not your style tryhard lol

                    • The Al1en …
                      6 August 2014 at 12:21 pm

                      “see, not so hard to be nice is it rather than your usual spit-style of posting – keep it up and your shit reputation may even improve”

                      Spin spin sugar.

                    • The Al1en …
                      6 August 2014 at 12:23 pm

                      “edit oh you changed your post back to the usual – oh dear, what a pity, never mind

                      plus ‘bro’ is just not your style tryhard lol”

                      Like a record baby, right round, round round. 😆

              • The Al1en …
                6 August 2014 at 10:53 am

                Priceless is about right for me – hh, about three million.

              • phillip ure …
                6 August 2014 at 10:56 am

                @ tom jackson..+1..

                ..there is that curious mix of arrogance and ignorance..

                ..and yep..!..as thick as a sack full of doorknobs..

          • tricledrown 3.2.1.2.2
            6 August 2014 at 11:00 pm

            If Banks can get Charter schools with 1 MP miserable prick in his case
            a party with more MPs can get more
            the Maori Party got Whanau Ora and Prison reform and a nice BMW for its leader.

        • bad12 3.2.1.3
          6 August 2014 at 9:45 am

          ”Limited intellect voters” nice from the resident elitist areshole,

          Tell us all Alien, if these voters you ascribe ”limited intellect” to voted Green would you suddenly ascribe to them ”intelligence”…

          • The Al1en 3.2.1.3.1
            6 August 2014 at 10:55 am

            A lot more than they originally had. Better late than never.

            “elitist areshole,”

            I’m not elitist.

            • The Lone Haranguer 3.2.1.3.1.1
              6 August 2014 at 11:59 am

              Now just explain to me again how Labour, the Greens, and IMP are going to work together sucessfully after the election – and thats before Winston puts his hand up for foreign affairs again……..

              I am starting to like quite a few of Labours policies (hey they make sense) but Im not too sure about the bedfellows/bedshelias with whom they will be co-habitating.

              I can understand Labour atacking the Greens and the IMP, as they need to be the biggest “Left” brand in parliament for the sake of their own brand which is being eroded by the Greens to quite a large extent. And you cant reward your own foot soldiers, when you have to accommodate your “partners”

              • weka …
                6 August 2014 at 1:08 pm

                Labour’s brand isn’t being eroded by the GP. Their constiuency is. The GP have better left wing policies and that’s why more people are voting for them.

                “Now just explain to me again how Labour, the Greens, and IMP are going to work together sucessfully after the election”

                Pretty simple. Labour and the GP form a coaltion that includes them both in cabinet. The IMP supports on C and S and possibly negotiates some specific policy deals. None of that is unusual.

                Or are you suggesting that Labour is incapable of working in coalition with other left wing parties?

                • The Lone Haranguer …
                  6 August 2014 at 3:01 pm

                  “Or are you suggesting that Labour is incapable of working in coalition with other left wing parties?”

                  I do wonder whether some politicians put their party ahead of the common cause (ousting the incumbents).

                  The Nats have taken the other approach and hoovered up the voters from their allied parties – clearly displaying that putting their party first is more important than having allied parties with similar philosophies, but different policies. I guess that way they can reward there only loyal footsoldiers better – if they win.

                  My recall of history is that no one group has the mortgage on good ideas and that hanging out only with people who always agree with you brings stale thinking. Think USSR, North Korea etc.

                  • weka …
                    6 August 2014 at 3:29 pm

                    Sorry, that’s a bit obscure in terms of answering my question, and seems a bit contradictory. You seem to be suggesting that Labour should be the biggest party, can’t work well with others, but that hanging out with themselves brings stale thinking.

                    ACT lost votes because they were shown to be the hard right neoliberals that they are, and most conservative voters don’t want that. Plus ACT had a series of leaders that were unappealing.

                    The MP lost votes because they betrayed their core constituents, I doubt those voters have gone to National.

                    I think you will be surprised how fewer people in reality vote for National than it appears. It looks good for them via the media, but when you break down the actual numbers, it looks like the right are still in FPP thinking and don’t really get MMP. I would guess that is the real reason for National’s relatively high vote compared to Labour. But compare National to the leftwing L/GP bloc and they’re not doing all that well.

                    • The Lone Haranguer …
                      6 August 2014 at 4:15 pm

                      Sorry, I didnt explain myself so well.

                      Party ahead of the common cause:
                      I perceive that Labour is doing this to maximise their numbers for any post election negotiations. They may end up being the biggest party in the opposition tho.

                      Stale one party thinking:
                      I was really thinking of National here and think that Labours policies are looking pretty good (high praise from a right wing type like me)

                      As for ACT losing votes, back in their early days they has a great weekly newsletter written by Prebble, which outlined their thinking very well. At the time, they wanted the cross benches so they could “keep the Nats honest”. But they sold out for the ministerial Limos and the perks – even Rodney fell for it – and really by then ACT was toast.

                      I liked what ACT was – a party that thought differently and had different solutions to the problems we faced. Sadly, they moved on from that and effectively stand for nothing anymore.

                • Chooky …
                  6 August 2014 at 11:24 pm

                  weka +100

            • Pasupial 3.2.1.3.1.2
              6 August 2014 at 12:05 pm

              T Allen

              “elitist areshole,”

              I’m not elitist.

              So you admit to being an arsehole?

        • Puddleglum 3.2.1.4
          6 August 2014 at 10:14 am

          Hi A11en,

          “… the mip is just a vehicle for kdc to avoid extradition …”

          How would that work?

          Do you think the IMP might threaten to withdraw confidence and supply support if the extradition isn’t quashed? (Notice that that eventuality is not eliminated by Labour’s/Cunliffe’s position on Mana.)

          If so, perhaps Harawira and Harre (and KDC) should be asked that question directly – now.

          Also, perhaps Cunliffe should be asked whether he would agree to quash the extradition in the event that such support were threatened to be withdrawn.

          Asking that question of them all should clarify the extent to which KDC can use IMP as “a vehicle … to avoid extradition“.

          Or perhaps they have already been asked that question?

        • phillip ure 3.2.1.5
          6 August 2014 at 11:58 am

          factcheck:..

          “..and that right wing bloggers had donated to it, though didn’t say if the donations were named, which of course blunts the attack..”

          two of the donations were from whaleoil and farrar..

          ..and in the pitch for the site..a ‘plus’ was cited that ‘national party members wd contribute’..

          ..to this cause of taking out harawira..

          • The Al1en 3.2.1.5.1
            6 August 2014 at 12:13 pm

            factfu*k more like.

            “two of the donations were from whaleoil and farrar..”

            Though it doesn’t say he solicited them from the bloggers directly, or KD knew who was donating. Obviously they outed themselves, but that proves no culpability on KD’s part.

            Hence

            “though didn’t say if the donations were named, which of course blunts the attack”

            If the bloggers said, hi I’m a right wing blogger, accept this money, I’m sure it would have been rejected.
            If it came through the website anonymously, you have no case.

            Do you know how those donations came into play? Does hh? He should, because he said it unequivocally, and unless proved, shows a lack of judgement and professionalism on par with KD.

            • phillip ure 3.2.1.5.1.1
              6 August 2014 at 12:22 pm

              the allen shd not mistake a factcheck of his bullshit..for an opening of dialogue..

              …i wd rather bash my cock against a nail-studded stump…

              • The Al1en …
                6 August 2014 at 12:25 pm

                So do you know the facts about the donations from the right wing bloggers or not?
                If you do, post them up, otherwise it’s totally misleading and disingenuous, like usual.

                Like said, factfu*k more like.

          • marty mars 3.2.1.5.2
            6 August 2014 at 12:27 pm

            True Phil – classical dirty trick that has backfired – why did the gnatbloggers donate? Weakest link that’s why and Kelvin and the team know it.

          • The Lone Haranguer 3.2.1.5.3
            6 August 2014 at 3:04 pm

            It may just be that they did not give any $$ to the cause, because just saying they did can do as much harm as actually sending the money.

            And its a bit cheaper too

      • Bearded Git 3.2.2
        6 August 2014 at 8:53 am

        phillip-you are back in that negative phase again; attacking Cunliffe because he is not doing what you want him to do.

        Cunliffe has to distance himself from Hone to win the election. Get used to it.

        IMO Hone is wonderful. He gave an excellent interview on Morning Report this am and every time he is on I am sure IMP’s vote goes up.

        IMP will back Labour on confidence and supply-that is certain. Cunliffe will probably make Laila and Hone chairpeople of some important committees.

        • Tracey 3.2.2.1
          6 August 2014 at 9:26 am

          They HAVE to if they get seats because their stated aim is to get rid of the Key Government. In that sense it is a clever call by Cunliffe. IF IMP dont support on that basis, Labour might not govern and Key gets the treasury benches.

          • Bearded Git 3.2.2.1.1
            6 August 2014 at 9:45 am

            Exactly Tracey.

            The Nats would be ruthless in the campaign painting Labour as partners to IMP. By ruling this out Labour has parked this issue and is able to concentrate on talking policy.

            Cunliffe was good on tv3 this morning talking policy and refusing to let the interviewer make it all about Kelvin Davis and KDC.

        • phillip ure 3.2.2.2
          6 August 2014 at 10:16 am

          @ b.g..

          ..i am somewhat tiring of this bullshit…

          ..if cunnliffe gives a good interview..i will say he has done a good interview..

          ..if he sucks..i’ll also say that..

          ..this is what i do..i do political-commentary..

          ..and as for yr claim re cunnliffe ‘not doing what i want’..is why i criticise him when i feel it is due..

          ..i am actually fucken agnostic about int/mana joining labour in a formal coalition..

          ..(this is what i said is this forum..yesterday..on that topic..)

          “..i have no problems with int/mana not being in cabinet/bound by cabinet muzzling-rules..

          ..for one thing..labour support a tpp..

          ..int/mana want to rip it up…

          ..and a weak/do nothing lab/nz first coalition..will just weaken labour further..

          ..and a potent int/mana on the cross-benches..free to argue etc..

          ..is fine with me..

          ..i wd just like there to be a lot of them..

          ..and then..in 2017…a lot more..”

          ..are you clear on that now..?

          ..these bullshit claims i have some ‘secret-agenda’..

          ..i don’t think i cd b more upfront about what my fucken ‘agenda’ is..

          ..eh..?

          • marty mars 3.2.2.2.1
            6 August 2014 at 10:34 am

            “..i wd just like there to be a lot of them..

            ..and then..in 2017…a lot more..””

            Exactly – it’s a long game we’re playing and that takes time and during that time skills will be learned and lessons undertook and when the time is there IMP will assume the reins naturally and with gratitude from the other entities including the people.

          • Bearded Git 3.2.2.2.2
            6 August 2014 at 11:02 am

            Hey Phillip I agree with you that Hone did an excellent interview.

            To call Cunliffe’s interview a “train wreck” is manifestly unfair-see Clem’s posting below for instance. He simply refused to further debate the IMP/Davis situation having clearly stated his position, and instead said he would talk about policy. The Davis affair needed to be shut down which is what he did.

            Remember: I would prefer IMP to be in the coalition/I am a Green voter/My prediction for the election is L31+G11+I7=49=Cunliffe with NZF not in the mix. I would be delighted with this outcome and I’m sure you would too.

        • Chooky 3.2.2.3
          6 August 2014 at 4:20 pm

          +100 Bearded Git @ 3.2.2

    • Clemgeopin 3.3
      6 August 2014 at 10:47 am

      No, not at all. I found both the interviews of Cunliffe and Harawira were EXCELLENT.

      And I agree with what both of them said. Very good points.

      Here is the interview for those who missed it:
      http://www.3news.co.nz/Harawira-calls-on-Davis-to-apologise-over-smear-website/tabid/370/articleID/355650/Default.aspx

  4. Ed 4
    6 August 2014 at 7:19 am

    There was a brief news article about the National government gifting conservation land, including part of the Rakaia river bed, to the purchasers of 85% of Synlait – do we know anything more?

    Allowing sales that have little or no benefit to New Zealand is one thing, but the ‘return on capital’ from gifting must be very low! Were there other benefits obtained from this ‘gift’ by parties other than government?

    • Rosie 4.1
      6 August 2014 at 10:00 am

      There was a piece about it on 3 news on Sunday night and a bit of follow up conversation on Open Mike that evening.

      BLiP found info on the linz site about forest up for grabs and posted it. It was shocking. Also on the linz site was info about approval for a $55+ mil buy up of land around Huapai. The buyer was a Chinese development group on behalf of the Chinese Government. Their interests were stated as “toll roads”…………intriguing and disturbing.

      It seems that conservation land that was gifted in Canterbury is just the tip of the ice berg in the great sell off of NZ.

      • yeshe 4.1.1
        6 August 2014 at 10:12 am

        Yes, Rosie. The tip of this iceberg makes my blood run chill … how poor will be shown to be in every single democratic measure when the usury of this Key govt is finally exposed for all its treasonous ugliness ? Brrrrrrr.

        • Rosie 4.1.1.1
          6 August 2014 at 10:41 am

          Tiger Mountains’ CAFCA link below is alarming reading.

          Little America or Little China or both? Either way we have sold out, our land, our water, our right to privacy and edging towards our own two feet to stand on.

    • marsman 4.2
      6 August 2014 at 10:40 am

      Ruth Richardson is a director of Synlait. Go figure.

    • Colonial Viper 4.4
      6 August 2014 at 12:20 pm

      Probably not gifting that conservation land, more likely a lease.

      • yeshe 4.4.1
        6 August 2014 at 3:09 pm

        Gold has been suggested elsewhere regarding the riverbed. And you know what else ? Not only does Oravida have swamp kauri stocked up, they also have Oravida Gold and acres of leases awarded to them by Simon Bridges.

        CORRUPT, TREASONOUS, AVARICIOUS, and dangerous to our democracy. I think even we will be badly shocked when athe sum of what has been sold/given away emerges in to daylight.

        • yeshe 4.4.1.1
          6 August 2014 at 3:19 pm

          Won’t let me edit, but here are some facts re Oravida Gold. And interesting to note Judith Collins husband owned the mining permits from 2011 before the land was bought by Oravida in 2013 !! Must have learned double-dipping from the dipton dancer!

          http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/nbbus/266137544-oravida-expanding-into-gold-mining-

          and

          ORAVIDA COMPANY SET TO MINE ON COAST
          A subsidiary of Chinese milk company Oravida has reportedly been drilling land it owns at
          Ross in preparation for a move into gold mining. Last year Oravida Property bought 100
          ha between Donaghues and the Mikonui River from Ross farmer and former regional
          councillor, Bryan Chinn. Combined with the purchase of land north of Auckland, it spent
          $3.2 million. It wants to create its own milk supply chain, which dates back to interest in
          the Chafer farms in 2009. The company also has a permit to mine 369 ha of land in the
          Mikonui River area, granted by the Ministry of Economic Development unit 2026. That
          company is owned by Deyi Shi. Mr Wong-Tung, who holds the minerals permit, told the
          Hokitika Guardian last year the company would mine the land before breaking into the
          Westland dairy market. “The specific intention of purchasing the land is for mining it, but
          also developing it after so we can turn it into good dairying land, as well as to make that
          little bit of land productive”. He said the company had a lot of red tape to sort through
          before being allowed to go ahead with its mining plans.
          (Greymouth Star – 20 March 2014)

          Week-ending-28.03.14 – Coast Valuations
          http://www.coastval.co.nz/dmsdocument/20

          I am thinking we need a million dollar fund to support Graeme McCready with all the work needing to be done ! Gold leases to a Minister’s husband ? Really, Mr Bridges ?

  5. Ad 5
    6 August 2014 at 7:27 am

    So what’s the collective view on the Wanaka-to-Arrowtown QEII covenant? Minister Smith has generated a massive new regional park on Great Barrier Island, and now gets to announce effectively a private national park as big as Aspiring National Park. He also lets remember killed two massive roading projects in the South Island over the last year. Is it time to give Nick Smith some credit?

    • ropata 5.1
      6 August 2014 at 8:27 am

      wtf is a”private national park” ?

    • Bearded Git 5.2
      6 August 2014 at 8:57 am

      Ad-its good news but important to note that QEII covenants do not allow public access.

      My understanding that some limited public tracks have been granted by Mutt as part of the process to date. Effectively he has largely set up a National Park for his own use.

      A better idea, which could still happen, would be that a right to roam be given to the public for the areas QEII covenanted, or at least some of them.

      • Bearded Git 5.2.1
        6 August 2014 at 11:39 am

        I notice this on the access issue from the ODT today:

        “Soho Properties and the trust were working with the New Zealand Walking Access Commission, the Commissioner of Crown Lands, the Queenstown Trails Trust and local walking and mountain biking groups to further improve public access.”

        Maybe reasonable access will eventuate after all.

    • Sookie 5.3
      6 August 2014 at 8:58 am

      The owner of Soho and Motutapu Stations is at least partially resident in NZ and has been for a few years, so its bloody disingenuous to use his covenant as an example of good foreign ownership. He’s also a keen conservationist, unlike raping and pillaging dairy farm consortiums. On the issue of Nick ‘the prick’ Smith, I think he is a genuine blue-green to an extent and probably the least offensive of all Nat ministers. He’s certainly more intelligent, informed and blue-green than Amy fricking Adams.

    • vto 5.4
      6 August 2014 at 9:26 am

      It is definitely a good thing. We recently passed through the south island high country and got to some remote places. The land is pretty wrecked when you get up close and look – all for a few sheep. It hasn’t made sense to lay waste to tens of thousands of hectares to only support a couple of families on a station – it is a pathetic return.

      So this QEII covenant is a very good thing. But Nick Smith deserves no credit for it. It aint nowt to do with him. But he does deserve credit for canning the loony monorail and the nutty tunnel – he just has one more to go and that is the most outrageous and brainless of the lot, the Haast-Hollyford Highway. But that is being attempted by a bunch of relics from colonial NZ who have somehow survived through to the 21st century. They don’t have a chance.

      But Nick Smith deserves an absolute pasting for his abuse of power in threatening Fish & Game with obliteration unless they support the National Party’s farmers polluting activities.

      • Bearded Git 5.4.1
        6 August 2014 at 11:24 am

        No vto, Smith doesn’t deserve credit for canning the tunnel and monorail-they were both no-brainers.

        However, it may be true that he leaned on DOC to support (or at least not oppose) the monorail, in their submission for which he deserves opprobrium.

        His true colours came out at the Fish and Game meeting.

    • Colonial Viper 5.5
      6 August 2014 at 9:34 am

      Word out in the conservation sector is that it is a very good thing and an incredible gesture from the ex-Shania guy; MPs from both National and Labour were at the event yesterday.

    • Chooky 5.6
      6 August 2014 at 9:35 am

      agreed he has done some good things…and deserves some credit ….but eternal vigilance…lets hope the proposed Haast-Hollyford Highway is also killed…New Zealand needs its wilderness areas!

  6. Tiger Mountain 6
    6 August 2014 at 7:34 am

    it’s double diddums for control freak Key and his script writers;
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10352978/Strict-rules-for-Key-electorate-event

    • Paul 6.1
      6 August 2014 at 7:43 am

      What a travesty of democracy.
      How is this permissible?

      • karol 6.1.1
        6 August 2014 at 8:11 am

        Kennedy Graham is the Green candidate for Helensville. I’d expect him to be there, too.

        The NZ Herald says it’s a meeting for both Helensville and Te Tai Tokerau candidates.

        And what’s to stop the Helensville candidates (without Key) having further debates in Helensville? They include high profile candidates of Harre and Graham.

    • Puddleglum 6.2
      6 August 2014 at 7:48 am

      From the link:

      “‘There is to be no debate at all. Candidates have been warned they will be thrown out if they mention other candidates or attack any other parties, or anything else like that, at all,” Ryan said.

      Silence would be demanded from everyone but the speaker, with one warning before those disrupting the meeting would be removed.

      ”It’s on that basis that the prime minister agreed to be there.”

      A spokeswoman for Key said he would take part in only one multi-candidate event in his electorate, which was ”the same as the last election campaign”.

      His office had played no role in the shaping of the rules for the event, she said.”

      One of these versions of events must be wrong.

      • felix 6.2.1
        6 August 2014 at 8:18 am

        Yes I noticed that. I think Key’s constant contradictions and linguistic meaninglessness have become so normalised that no-one even checks anymore.

        Also, this story gives a more strategic view of the Nats’ apparently deliberate and recently adopted yelling-over-the-top-of-the-opponent tactic. I wondered what they were up to, it seems it’s just a background for Key to look good in front of.

        I guess it doesn’t matter if every Nat looks an oaf if you’re only really asking people to vote for the PM anyway.

        • Puddleglum 6.2.1.1
          6 August 2014 at 10:25 am

          “…no-one even checks anymore.”

          When I read something like this it’s not like I’m ‘checking’ – it just jumps out like a great big flashing sign spelling ‘Contradiction’ while generating a foghorn-like noise.

          Why couldn’t the journalist just ‘see it’ in that way? Isn’t it one of their skills?

          The dots were so close together in the story but they weren’t explicitly joined. Leaving it to the reader? Why? It could have even been the focus of the story – I thought journalists were keen on spotting that sort of contradiction in the utterances of politicos.

          • felix 6.2.1.1.1
            6 August 2014 at 6:09 pm

            Yes “checks” wasn’t really the right word, I mean I don’t think anyone is taking notice.

            I think people are just printing whatever gibberish he says and they don’t even expect it to make sense.

      • RedBaronCV 6.2.2
        6 August 2014 at 8:41 am

        So the Prime Minister will spend more of his time talking to Whaleoil than voters in his own electorate? Unbelievable?

        Get the toilet window exit ready.

      • yeshe 6.2.3
        6 August 2014 at 10:32 am

        Reminds me of Muldoon’s campaign opening at Wiri Woolstore, oh, so many years ago. There were so many police and police cameramen, it was 100% intimidating and frightening, to the extent the half-dozen over-ripe duck eggs we wicked feminist three smuggled in, through the police door searches, by necessity went unused … we would have been beaten black and blue in that atmosphere and possibly seriously injured.

        Yes, Muldoon had the police doing door searches at his campaign opening.

        Alas, who could have known they were perhaps the halcyon days after all ??

      • alwyn 6.2.4
        6 August 2014 at 10:40 am

        Why is there any reason to say
        “One of these versions of events must be wrong”?
        All it is really saying is that “We plan to hold an all- candidate meeting”. “The rules we propose are”. “Will you attend?”
        Key then said he would attend such meeting. There is no reason to say that he set up the rules being proposed and nothing to say that the statements must conflict.

        • framu 6.2.4.1
          6 August 2014 at 12:26 pm

          “There is no reason to say that he set up the rules”

          well – nothing but all the other times the nats have set things up to favour themselves and insulate key from having to actually think

          • alwyn 6.2.4.1.1
            6 August 2014 at 1:12 pm

            You have some evidence for this claim I presume?
            Or is it just a proposal from your fevered imagination.

        • felix 6.2.4.2
          6 August 2014 at 4:59 pm

          Yes alwyn I suppose it is possible that someone other than John Key came up with the rule that no-one is allowed to mention John Key, but it doesn’t seem very bloody likely.

        • Puddleglum 6.2.4.3
          6 August 2014 at 7:11 pm

          Hi alwyn,

          That’s an interesting way to resolve the apparent difference in the accounts. To be honest I didn’t give that possibility much consideration. Here’s why.

          First was the context in which the two statements were reported. This is the ‘lead in’ to the first statement:

          ”There is to be no debate at all. Candidates have been warned they will be thrown out if they mention other candidates or attack any other parties, or anything else like that, at all,” Ryan said.

          Silence would be demanded from everyone but the speaker, with one warning before those disrupting the meeting would be removed.

          ”It’s on that basis that the prime minister agreed to be there.”

          Interestingly, Ryan says the “candidates have been warned” yet, in reference to John Key, there’s less a sense of a ‘warning’ than a process of agreement: “it’s on that basis that the prime minister agreed to be there.“.

          Perhaps it was poor reporting but it didn’t sound like Key had been ‘warned’ by Holly Ryan while, obviously, other candidates had been.

          I really don’t see how it’s possible to read those paragraphs and think that Ryan was simply referring to Key’s acquiescence to such strict rules (as if he had much preferred an old-fashioned, wide-ranging head to head with the other candidates but had had to ‘agree’ to be reigned in).

          Second, it seems unusual that after talking about ‘the candidates’ Holly Ryan only refers to the Prime Minister in relation to the basis upon which participation was agreed.

          That is, she didn’t say “We can’t possibly change the rules now because it’s on that basis that (all) the candidates agreed to be there.” Instead – inexplicably – she only referred to the agreement of the Prime Minister. Why just him if these were general rules?

          Now, perhaps Holly Ryan only mentioned the Prime Minister in that comment because she saw him as the big ‘drawcard’ (as the sitting MP and, of course, the Prime Minister) and wanted to be sure to get his agreement to attend.

          But that then raises the question as to why she thought those particular rules of engagement would entice John Key to attend – itself not flattering to the Prime Minister’s supposed reputation to ‘debate – and beat – all comers’ (as some here have repeatedly contended is his strength).

          Or perhaps these rules were ‘anticipatory’ of gaining Key’s involvement because those were the only kinds of meetings Key had previously turned up to?

          Such deference to the Prime Minister – and harsh ‘warnings’ to other candidates – also seems out of place for someone organising such an all-candidates event.

          Third, possibly in naivety, I had just assumed that anyone motivated enough to host a ‘meet the candidates’ meeting during an election campaign would wish to have at least some challenge and counter-challenge of candidates’ policies – either candidate to candidate or citizen to candidate (well managed, of course).

          I had thought that the only way that a ‘meet the candidates’ event would become so apparently anodyne in structure – and therefore likely to be so unrevealing of the soundness of policy positions, etc. – would be if politicians had done their best to make it so.

          For me, democracy goes with debate, discussion and engagement like horses go with carriages.

          But perhaps your resolution of the two versions of the event is correct. Perhaps in the more right wing suburbs and areas of New Zealand, democracy and politics are genuinely believed to be best carried out along the lines of consumer choice.

          Just as products are lined up along the shelves and the individual consumer, in undisturbed silence, reads the labels and ‘experiences’ the claims and aesthetics of the packaging to determine their individual preference perhaps it’s believed that choosing between political candidates should occur under the same conditions.

          Each political consumer, that is, is best left in splendid isolation with each ‘product’. In this way they can come to their own judgment without the interference of debate and interaction; without the benefit of the knowledge and candidate skills and values that might be revealed by robust discussion, argument and counter-argument.

          Perhaps in such places in New Zealand some people really do think that the ‘competition of ideas’ involves no direct contest between those ideas but just a parade in front of the individual political consumer who then makes their ‘choice’ (on a very impoverished basis).

          In many ways I’d much rather believe that the ‘meet the candidates’ event has been politically manipulated.

          That would be less disturbing.

          • ropata 6.2.4.3.1
            6 August 2014 at 9:03 pm

            Key’s image must be preserved at all costs, that’s why he refuses to be interviewed on Radio NZ or by any serious journo.. only facing John Campbell and the GCSB committee when things were spiralling out of control. He’s happy to be feted by sports shows and non political events though.

            Clearly, Dear Leader is beyond question.

    • kenny 6.3
      6 August 2014 at 7:49 am

      Unbelievable!

      There’s going to be fireworks there – can’t see Penny Bright putting up with that.

      • phillip ure 6.3.1
        6 August 2014 at 8:04 am

        a form of silent-protest cd be tape over the mouth..

        ..and this control-freak exercise has now become the story…

        • Tiger Mountain 6.3.1.1
          6 August 2014 at 8:20 am

          Agree phillip,
          this ‘mufflefest’ would be a good focus for a Change the Government Rally of several hundred people on the night too.

          The “freedom of speech as long as you don’t say too much” angle shows the fuss over tory fan presenter Hosko’s conflict of interest was not misguided.

          It is about the Nats desire for complete control (apol to The Clash) as evidenced by Steven Joyces behaviour on the weekend.

          • phillip ure 6.3.1.1.1
            6 August 2014 at 8:25 am

            it is amusing how over the past week or so..

            ..national have not put a foot right…

          • ianmac 6.3.1.1.2
            6 August 2014 at 9:48 am

            It seems to me that Key just issues statements and is not being questioned or interviewed. The only time that he responds is when on safe ground. Now being unable or unwilling to front during an election campaign is mind boggling. And on the ground he is surrounded by minders so that he does not have to meet any New Zealanders.

            Surely this displays at once arrogance and a serious Key weakness?

            • Kiwiri 6.3.1.1.2.1
              6 August 2014 at 10:21 am

              The joke going around is that when Key feels like he wants to get out of looking bad or is being shown up for his pants catching fire, he will signal for the fire alarm to be set off to break up the gathering.

        • phillip ure 6.3.1.2
          6 August 2014 at 10:24 am

          and of course a potent counter to demands for ‘silence’..

          ..is group-hissing…

          ..hard to tell who is..and who isn’t…

    • Hayden 6.4
      6 August 2014 at 9:12 am

      Politicians who want to share the stage with John Key at his only multi-candidate electorate event have been warned they shouldn’t even mention his name.

      The “Unidentified guest” strikes again. On the other hand, given that Key seems to be unable to answer a question in the House without throwing in some misrepresentation of some other party’s policies or reference to previous governments, might he be the first cast out?

    • Tracey 6.5
      6 August 2014 at 9:27 am

      I read that this morning, and if true, wow. Just wow.

    • vto 6.6
      6 August 2014 at 9:34 am

      Key is chicken

      Key is chicken

      Key is chicken

      bok bok

      how pathetic for a grown man and prime minister. what a loser.

      • yeshe 6.6.1
        6 August 2014 at 10:51 am

        and the news about the $55 million land sale in Huapai to Chinese buyers cannot be unknown to him … he has reason to be chicken. Finally the teflon is failing.

  7. mickysavage 7
    6 August 2014 at 7:36 am

    I just heard Murray McCully on the radio being interviewed by Suzy Ferguson on morning report. Can a member of the media please ask this question? Is the delay in the return of the Malaysian diplomat because they are having to use the Malaysian extradition process?

    • Paul 7.1
      6 August 2014 at 7:46 am

      Susie Ferguson failed to ask any challenging questions.

      • Chooky 7.1.1
        6 August 2014 at 9:20 am

        Suzi Ferguson also used John Key to dis the Greens policy …before Russel Norman had even opened his mouth!

        (policy of a Green card enabling poor university students and other tertiary students and apprentices to access public transport for free especially in off peak times)

        Russel Norman handled himself very well however and called her out …saying she had opened his interview with an “assault”…. by John Key!

        … Russel Norman also coolly countered Key’s arguments that it was too expensive to spend on students by pointing out the overseas debt that John Key has accrued for New Zealand ..and the wasted money on motorways

        Espiner followed up the attack on Green policy by inviting a business sector interviewee on an unrelated matter to comment on Green policy…of course it was in the negative.

        Morning Report should be overhauled after the Election..it is biased and a mouthpiece of John Key!

        However it does show how sensitive John Key is to the Greens and the issue of university students and affordable education….so if the Left concentrates on this it will be a WINNER !

        ( Nactional has neglected young New Zealanders shamelessly…In Holland , Germany, France, Scandinavia and many other countries tertiary education is relatively FREE, if not completely …In New Zealand many very bright students are deciding that they and their families can not afford it…which leaves New Zealand university education for the children of the wealthy…whose parents can afford it! eg Bill English and John Key)

        …Under Nactional there is a shocking waste of young New Zealanders talent !!!!..It is going to create a class system in New Zealand….where only the children of the wealthy can afford a tertiary education… “the chosen”. This betrays the egalitarian ideals and education system of our New Zealand ancestors both Pakeha and Maori

        • ianmac 7.1.1.1
          6 August 2014 at 9:52 am

          When was the last time Key was actually interviewed as aggressively as say Norman or Cunliffe? Or even when was the last time Key was interviewed?

          • Colonial Viper 7.1.1.1.1
            6 August 2014 at 12:25 pm

            There was that Rugby magazine…

          • Paul 7.1.1.1.2
            6 August 2014 at 7:40 pm

            That Hard Talk interview in the UK?
            I think Kim Hill also asked him some tricky questions.

            Otherwise, it’s just cosy chats with Rawden, Mike , Marcus and the rest of the ghastly corporate media.

    • Tracey 7.2
      6 August 2014 at 9:29 am

      He is coming back though, isn’t he? I thought I saw a headline about him returning in the paper this morning?

      • mickysavage 7.2.1
        6 August 2014 at 10:49 am

        As Kim Dotcom has shown anything can happen with an extradition hearing. Although I am sure the Malaysian Diplomat does not have the same sort of resources that Dotcom has.

        Have you noticed how averse the Government has been to use the “E” word (Extradition)? They keep saying it is a legal process and it is all up to the lawyers but they don’t want the two events to be linked.

  8. Saarbo 8
    6 August 2014 at 7:39 am

    This mornings GDT auction dropped another 8.4%. Our dairy industry has officially collapsed.

    • Colonial Viper 8.1
      6 August 2014 at 7:46 am

      Looks like it is still above the lows of ~May 2012 pricing – just. It looks like pricing has dropped an overall 45% in 18 months. Which is basically a disaster to anyone who has geared their farm up for the higher price structure. Also, this greatly increases the likelihood of a severe recession by Q1 2015: austerity time.

      • phillip ure 8.1.1
        6 August 2014 at 7:58 am

        is that drop not since february..?

        • bad12 8.1.1.1
          6 August 2014 at 10:13 am

          10% of dairy farmers hold 50% of the estimated 40 billion dollars of bank debt said to be the loading for that industry,

          The banks are talking an overall ‘loss’ for the economy of 4 billion dollars and that would have to in the next 18 months translate into a 1.3 billion dollar hole in the Governments books,

          Rock Bottom economy here we come, analysts in the industry are saying that the reluctance of buyers at the recent auctions is because they ‘stockpiled’ milk solids/powders in previous years but i pick that as wishful thinking and the dairy boom is going bust befor our eyes as the point of over-supply internationally has probably been reached,

          The only saving grace for the Government will be IF the figures produced by Labour in 2010/2011 which showed a large demographic of the dairy farmers were paying less tax than an average pensioner are correct which would quixotically mean that the recent downgrade of the dairy prices at auction will produce less red ink in the Government’s books…

  9. Awww 9
    6 August 2014 at 7:55 am

    We need to put a stop to this by making sure company directors are held personally liable. Edit: And make that law retrospective as a special treat for rogue employers who know right now they can get away with it.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/small-business/10351787/Slave-unlikely-to-get-paid

    • crocodill 9.1
      6 August 2014 at 9:32 am

      Only so much that politics and law can do in the face of, “I gave him my loyalty because he was a fellow [insert favourite religion here]…”. That’s the free will of the individual and quite rightly the law should stay out of that kind of thing; least of all, if it didn’t, it’d make all of us moronic because we’d never learn anything about life or ourselves. To quote the cynical, but too often true, words of William S Burroughs, “Never trust a religious SOB. God has told him how to rip you off.” Luckily we have literature to pick up where politics shouldn’t go.

      There is of course a disclaimer for that quote – don’t need to start any unearned religious hate speech malarkey here. The problem currently is the disturbing trend of religious organisations to confuse the will of their God with the popular culture of the free market. God is of course still God, somewhere out there, but religious types have deviated so grossly they end up worshipping a shadow, an evil twin if you like. Isn’t so much God told him how to rip you off, but that the person mistook God for the sentiment of individualist/commercial slogans that almost exactly match those found in the bible (when taken literally and out of context) and didn’t think twice. And then the guy might have taken advantage on purpose. Anyone can say they’re following this or that religion, and still be a malicious ass.

      • Draco T Bastard 9.1.1
        6 August 2014 at 10:15 am

        After someone wins a court case the person responsible shouldn’t get off paying their dues by winding up the company. Got nothing to do with religion – except possibly your own apparent Randian ideology.

        • JanM 9.1.1.1
          6 August 2014 at 10:37 am

          Winding up a company is an old tried and tested way of getting out of financial obligations. The company transfers its assets to a new company which has no legal obligation to honour the debt. How do you think so many developers get rich and so many small building companies go to the wall? (I speak from personal experience here)

          • Draco T Bastard 9.1.1.1.1
            6 August 2014 at 1:34 pm

            Winding up a company is an old tried and tested way of getting out of financial obligations.

            Yep and we need to stop people from being able to do it. All liabilities of a company must accrue to the owners and directors.

            • The Lone Haranguer 9.1.1.1.1.1
              6 August 2014 at 3:23 pm

              That would defeat the purposes of “limited liability” companies.

              There are sufficient checks and balances within company law, many of which do allow liquidators to pursue directors personally for a bunch of indescretions, and legislation which allows criminal convictions for fraud and the like.

              What we do need is for the Companies Office to be resourced in order to do the policing of “Phoenix” companies that pop up, run by family and/or friends of errant directors who may have been disqualified from acting as directors.

              Just employing the former director in a “new (phoenix)” company, especially when trading from the same location, should set off massive warning lights, and the Companies Office should be resourced to take the necessary action.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                6 August 2014 at 5:40 pm

                That would defeat the purposes of “limited liability” companies.

                Yes. Once I realised, many years ago, that people were using limited liability so as to bypass any risk while exclaiming about all the risk that they took I became fully of the opinion that limited liability needed to be shut down as well.

                There are sufficient checks and balances within company law,

                No there isn’t else the person in the article would be getting their awarded $83k.

                What we do need is for the Companies Office to be resourced in order to do the policing of “Phoenix” companies that pop up, run by family and/or friends of errant directors who may have been disqualified from acting as directors.

                Wouldn’t need such complexity if we held people responsible in the first place.

            • yeshe 9.1.1.1.1.2
              6 August 2014 at 3:24 pm

              Mainzeal and Jenny Shipley, for example.

  10. Paul 10
    6 August 2014 at 7:56 am

    Are these two news stories connected?

    Dairy prices hit 17-month low, amid China concerns

    ‘….Indeed, the fresh decline tallied with a caution from Rabobank last week that producers may have to wait until 2015 for a revival in prices, with milk output much improved in major exporting nations, but Chinese buyers have stepped back, after early-year stockpiling.

    “China bought more than we anticipated in the first five months of the year. It now appears they also bought far more than they needed,” the bank said.’

    http://www.agrimoney.com/news/dairy-prices-hit-17-month-low-amid-china-concerns–7223.html

    Giving away New Zealand

    ‘Another day, another massive overseas land sale of dubious benefit to New Zealand. Meanwhile, we’ve also learned that “our” government has been giving away parts of the conservation estate to foreigners:
    3 News has discovered that Shanghai Pengxin, the controversial Chinese buyer of the massive Lochinver Station, was recently given conservation land by the Government, including parts of the Rakaia riverbed.

    http://norightturn.blogspot.co.nz/2014/08/giving-away-new-zealand.html

    Join the dots.
    We are becoming tenants in our own land.
    Wealthy Americans, British, Chinese and other foreign corporates are buying our land from under our feet.

    • miravox 10.1
      6 August 2014 at 8:27 am

      Join the dots.

      I’m joing the dots with the call for an early election. NAct is hoping to have it over and done with before a perfect economic storm hits.

      • Kiwiri 10.1.1
        6 August 2014 at 10:07 am

        Just wondering: what are the current commentaries or predictions (if any) regarding a potential crisis coming up for the well-known months (Sep/Oct) of market catastrophes particularly for this year?
        Any links to selected readings would be appreciated. (I known I can google but I would like to access what others here have read and screened through.)

        • Colonial Viper 10.1.1.1
          6 August 2014 at 2:10 pm

          All I know is that debt/gdp ratios worldwide are now at worse levels than before the 2008 GFC.

          • Kiwiri 10.1.1.1.1
            6 August 2014 at 4:20 pm

            Your comment reminds me of this:

            “One look at this graph makes it obvious that we’re in totally uncharted waters: the debt to GDP ratio has never been as high as it is now. If the debt ratio has any economic significance at all, then we have to take it seriously today.”

            [Graph: Debt to GDP (Australia)]

            “The only historical precedents for today are the two obvious peaks in the data, in the 1890s and 1930s. The latter alone implies bad news: the 1930s were the decade of the Great Depression, which was easily the greatest economic crisis that market economies have ever experienced.”

            “It is less well-known that the 1890s were also a decade of Depression for Australia, and Fisher & Kent argued in Two Depressions that the 1890s experience was more severe for Australia than the Great Depression.”

            http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=6528&page=1

            That was from Steve Keen, 22 October 2007

    • Tiger Mountain 10.2
      6 August 2014 at 8:44 am

      dear CAFCA–Campaign Against Foreign Control of Aotearoa is still going many decades on and here are some useful facts they have put together w/sources included;
      http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1401/S00011/who-owns-nz-foreign-control-key-facts-updated.htm

      • Chooky 10.2.1
        6 August 2014 at 9:29 am

        +100…they do great work….have always admired Murray Horton ..he was a brilliant student from the working class

    • Tracey 10.3
      6 August 2014 at 9:32 am

      wasnt it Mr Key who first warned us about becoming tenants in our own land?

      “”If we ended up in a situation where New Zealanders were tenants in their own country, I can’t see how that would be in New Zealand’s best interests,” 2010

      The problem is how many tenants of foreign ownership do there have to be before Mr Key thinks the threshold has been reached?

      I don’t know if those dots join but China does what it does without a thought to our sensibilities, dontchathink?

    • Draco T Bastard 10.4
      6 August 2014 at 10:18 am

      Join the dots.
      We are becoming tenants in our own land.
      Wealthy Americans, British, Chinese and other foreign corporates are buying our land from under our feet.

      And that is why we need to ban foreign ownership of anything and everything in NZ. A total ban because there is never a time when foreign ownership is good for a country.

      • yeshe 10.4.1
        6 August 2014 at 10:43 am

        Rarotonga has it right .. land is for lease only, and on a fixed term .. I think it’s 30 years, but have to check.

        Hard to stop the sales while folk such as Judith Collins, Ruth Richardson and Jenny Shipley all have China money-in-the-bank pass cards and are senior advisers … they have sold us out 100%. Treasonous and vile.

  11. Te Reo Putake 11
    6 August 2014 at 8:08 am

    The Scottish referendum debate (Salmond/Darling) is streaming on http://player.stv.tv/live/. They’re halfway through, an hour to go.

    • Tracey 11.1
      6 August 2014 at 9:33 am

      I wonder if the nationalism stirred by the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow will have impacted people’s voting choices at all?

      • Te Reo Putake 11.1.1
        6 August 2014 at 11:22 am

        Possibly. The latest poll overnight suggests the undecided are firming up and supporting the Yes campaign. However, the No vote remains steady at 50% plus. Six weeks to go!

        http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/news/285203-support-for-yes-rises-in-stv-poll-ahead-of-salmond-darling-debate/

        Overview of polling here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014

        • Rosie 11.1.1.1
          6 August 2014 at 12:03 pm

          Thanks for the update on the upcoming Scottish referendum. I had this in mind to look into.

          I see that the 25 – 34 age group are more likely to vote yes (56%) Let’s hope they turn out in their droves to vote!

          I heard Alex Salmond say during the coverage of the Commonwealth games that if they gained independence they might consider NZer’s with family links, (including grandparents) to Scotland being a group that can gain citizenship if one was to move over there.

          My Nana was from Forfar (and further back the other side are from Inverness and Beauly) so if it goes belly up after 20th September and Scotland gets her independence I might take them up them up on it!

          • Te Reo Putake 11.1.1.1.1
            6 August 2014 at 12:42 pm

            One of the reasons I’m interested in the referendum is because my kids have a strong Scottish heritage on their mother’s side. Mind you, their grandmother roundly abused Alex Salmond when he visited her wee town a few weeks ago. She’s so firmly opposed to independence she’s going to move to England if the Yes vote gets up!

            • Rosie 11.1.1.1.1.1
              6 August 2014 at 2:04 pm

              Ah, that strong determined Scots mind. Bless her 🙂

              From the figures you provided, it was the older generation who seem most opposed. Let’s hope the determination of the young un’s matches that of their elders on voting day.

              I know theres going to be a massive double celebration in our house if the Scots get their independence and if we win the election. The votes are only a couple of days apart. It’ll be a big weekend!

  12. Pascals bookie 12
    6 August 2014 at 8:33 am

    http://www.critic.co.nz/news/article/4230/act-candidate-for-dunedin-north-resigns

    Reckon the local ACTivists are going to go all quiet about Big Brain’s not at all racist speech pretty quick. They’ll be too busy attacking their former board member and candidate for Dunners North.

  13. greywarbler 13
    6 August 2014 at 9:18 am

    Two interesting things this morning on Radionz.

    10:35 Book review: When the Farm Gates Opened
    When the Farm Gates Opened: The Impact of Rogernomics on rural New Zealand by Neal Wallace. Reviewed by Harry Broad, published by Otago University Press, $RRP30.00

    11:20 Tax evasion and welfare fraud in the justice system
    Legal commentator Lisa Marriott discusses financial crime.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon

    • Tracey 13.1
      6 August 2014 at 9:35 am

      I wish someone would address the lack of personal liability for property developers. With the boom in consents driven by CHCHCH rebuild and this govt forcing land open in Auckland, you just know there will be problems in the years ahead BUT Developers can open a company, buy land, develop land, contract designers and builders, sell property, take property, close company and start a new project. NO liability in the future unless they went on site during construction (which they assiduously avoid).

      • vto 13.1.1
        6 August 2014 at 9:52 am

        I agree but why limit it to just a few groups of people in business?

        Lets make
        Theo Spiering (Fonterra head) personally responsible for spilt milk.
        John Key personally responsible for government (ha ha yeah I know)
        All shareholders in power companies personally responsible for power outages
        All shareholders in the Warehouse personally responsible for jandals and plastic buckets that break
        …

        completely remove the limited liability company and make all owners, employees and bosses personally responsible for their works

        good luck on that one tracey

      • JanM 13.1.2
        6 August 2014 at 10:40 am

        They often send their contract builders to the wall by not making the last progress payment or two as well

  14. Dialey 14
    6 August 2014 at 9:41 am

    John Key refusing to allow debate at the only candidate meeting in his electorate – what is he afraid of.

    • ianmac 14.1
      6 August 2014 at 10:00 am

      This avoidance should be shouted by Opposition parties wide and long. Key is a coward in refusing to mix it with the people in a democratic country during a democratic election.

      • Tiger Mountain 14.1.1
        6 August 2014 at 10:21 am

        Makes Internet Mana look good with the series (i.e. not just one) of Roadshow events they are running, where people (aka walking talking members of the public) get to ask live unvetted questions of the IMP leaders and candidates.

        Kim Jong Key–does he really expect to get away with this one?

    • northshoreguynz 14.2
      6 August 2014 at 10:42 am

      Having to talk policy.

  15. ianmac 15
    6 August 2014 at 10:20 am

    Pinched this from Sideswipe. Someone at the bookshop is being a bit mean but truthful to John Key’s book.
    https://scontent-b-pao.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/10509555_515240358607800_7531179960078002433_n.jpg

    • Kiwiri 15.1
      6 August 2014 at 10:28 am

      Hah!

      As I have suggested and am sounding out the call again:

      NZ voters,
      do your civic duty,
      when you are out and about (bookshop, The Warehouse or public library),
      grab a copy or two,
      and discretely re-shelve them in the appropriate sections, eg
      – Fiction
      – Fantasy
      – Crime.

      • Puckish Rogue 15.1.1
        6 August 2014 at 12:07 pm

        Good idea because causing more work for the people that work there is always a good use of your time

    • Tiger Mountain 15.2
      6 August 2014 at 10:30 am

      lol. but couldn’t make out the small text on the “Top 5” sticker
      “Top 5 ways to fix a wonky table leg?’
      “Top 5 in David Farrar, Mathew Hooten and Hoskos audio book list?”
      “Top 5 unwanted gifts?”

  16. s y d 16
    6 August 2014 at 10:37 am

    Just put in my tip to the taxpayers union on this beauty.

    ACC overcollecting levies to get the beloved ‘surplus’.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/election-2014/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503581&objectid=11304503

    this is a rip-off of the biggest order.

  17. bad12 17
    6 August 2014 at 11:12 am

    Musings from the ‘roadshow’ #1, DotCom,

    Lets start with the big fella, and He is, looking round the packed events center and DotCom can look down at most in the 4–500 strong crowd,

    Not that He does, there is no obeisance here, no kowtowing to money, none given and i would suggest none asked for, the speech from the stage low key,(excuse the fruedian but who would suggest Slippery isn’t),

    What is remarkable is His description of how the whole mad roller coaster began, Mega, really an absolute piece of socialism its genesis in a German Government grant given to DotCom after the judge had given Him a steer in that direction when as a kid one of His ‘hacking’ escapades showed He had expertise beyond His education in the field,

    Annette Sykes, on the stage, fired up said of the meeting at Rotorua where the alliance between Internet and Mana was struck, DotCom didn’t just get to walk in and buy the place with His coin, She personally gave Him the third degree, it wasn’t pretty, not even anywhere near nice,

    He came through some hard hours of at times open hostility on the Marae, earned the tick of approval in doing so from Annette, He has respect, such respect not given lightly,

    What of Him tho, this DotCom, what i was seeking, from among the shadows, was a personal sense of the man, while i fully understand that deep down there must be ‘rage’, having been deeply involved with the whole police/justice circus over many years of an absolutely misspent youth that makes the supposed ‘crimes’ of DotCom pale into insignificance i know exactly how He feels,

    Other than His size, the sheer bulk provides a certain presence, it wasn’t until the final minutes at the venue that i got a real sense of DotCom, talking with Ariana,(more on Her later), one of the local candidates, i didn’t even notice as DotCom slipped past us,

    Hailed as He entered the lift with good wishes it struck me then that despite all the supposed mountains of coin, the toys, the Mansion, the publicity, DotCom the bloke is at heart Shy,

    There was no grandiose departure, no entourage of the powerful, just DotCom quietly slipping into the lift responding with a smile and a wave as He is wished well for the future,

    This of course, has been a message from that future, InternetMana, be there…

    • Bearded Git 17.1
      6 August 2014 at 11:31 am

      great stuff bad12

    • yeshe 17.2
      6 August 2014 at 11:44 am

      Thx Bad. Here be delicious dragons, bringing bright flames of change ! 🙂

    • Pasupial 17.3
      6 August 2014 at 12:10 pm

      Thanks for that Bad12. Just the inspiration I need before heading out this avo to deliver flyers for Tuesday’s Dunedin roadshow.

      • bad12 17.3.1
        6 August 2014 at 12:24 pm

        Cheer Pasupial, enjoy, its quite catching that flyer, on the second and third reads, it will be the center of discussion later in the week as i ‘see’ it as the basis of the candidate flyers for the local electorates here in Wellington,

        Noted yesterday, Big Ups to InternetMana for the Wellington billboards, great positioning, good succinct message able to be taken in as i drive by,

        And,

        The color scheme is the bomb, there’s a whole nest of them where i saw this particular billboard and the ‘metallic’ color of the InternetMana one definitely drags attention straight at it…

    • marty mars 17.4
      6 August 2014 at 12:32 pm

      Thanks bad – good writeup

  18. phillip ure 18
    6 August 2014 at 11:44 am

    kathryn ryan is such a rightwing-trout..

    ..a tax-expert has just made a considered-case on the gross inequalities shown to benefit fraudsters..and ‘white-collar’ tax-fraud..

    ..and ryan then just skives away from that..

    ..and starts banging on about welfare-fraud couples..

    ..as always..’it’s the poor wot’ gets the blame..’

    • Tiger Mountain 18.1
      6 August 2014 at 2:40 pm

      Yep she was as weak as a double lemonade on the DHB negotiations team leader yesterday too, who claimed not to know whether he or other execs received pay increases in excess of the 0.7% offered to health care workers. She could have pressed him as it was a highly relevant point but meekly moved on.

  19. bad12 19
    6 August 2014 at 11:53 am

    From this mornings Granny, the online version,

    National MP Tim Macindoe, along with radio station Free FM have been referred by the Electoral Commission to the Police over an alleged breach of the electoral act by both of them,

    No never, i cannot believe that National Party MP’s would ever not adhere to the law, sarc/…

    • Puckish Rogue 19.1
      6 August 2014 at 12:10 pm

      Well breaking the electorial act is normally the preserve of the left but if hes guilty he should be punished

  21. weka 21
    6 August 2014 at 12:13 pm

    David Cunliffe on 29/6/14

    In our party’s constitution Labour’s first core principle is “All political authority comes from the people by democratic means including universal suffrage, regular and free elections with a secret ballot.”

    We won’t be doing pre-election deals. It’s up to New Zealanders to decide who they send to Parliament.

    After the election I’ll talk with anyone committed to changing the Government. It’s fair to say that won’t include National, Act or Colin Craig’s group.

    My emphasis.

    David Cunliffe Q+A

    That was in response to this question from Pasupial:

    Would you be willing to accept Internet/ MANA Party MPs as part of a Labour-led government if that gave you the numbers to form a progressive coalition post-election (and a mutually satisfactory relationship could be negotiated)?

    How about; a United Future & Maori Party MP(s), if they have votes to offer and were willing to negotiate support (I’m assuming a yes for both; Green Party and NZF, a no for; National, ACT & CP, please correct if I’m mistaken)?

    I don’t have a problem with Labour deciding that they won’t have Mana/IP/IMP in cabinet or as Ministers. But I am disappointed to see Cunliffe going back on what he has said above. He also said something recently about it being extremely unlikely that Mana would get Ministerial positions, but that they might be part of a C and S agreement. What was wrong with continuing that line?

    • marty mars 21.1
      6 August 2014 at 12:34 pm

      I think the davis dirty tricks forced his hand – at least he stuck by his candidate I suppose.

      • just saying 21.1.1
        6 August 2014 at 12:48 pm

        It’s a really bad look for Cunliffe to continually cave-in to whatever the latest middle-class focus group feels uneasy about. It just looks weak. I realise he needs to show some degree of political pragmatism, but this tried-and-failed approach is just craven.

        • phillip ure 21.1.1.1
          6 August 2014 at 3:21 pm

          “..It’s a really bad look for Cunliffe to continually cave-in to whatever the latest middle-class focus group feels uneasy about. It just looks weak…”

          ..+ 1..

      • Chooky 21.1.2
        6 August 2014 at 3:27 pm

        @marty mars…what worries me about Davis is that he was endorsed by Shane Jones…and we all know whose friend he is

  22. Puckish Rogue 22
    6 August 2014 at 12:14 pm

    Just in case people missed it:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11304727

    Key Points:

    • The number of people employed increased by 10,000 people.

    • The employment rate fell 0.1 percentage points, to 65.0 per cent.

    • The number of people unemployed decreased by 9,000 people.

    • The unemployment rate fell 0.3 percentage points to 5.6 per cent.

    • The labour force participation rate decreased 0.3 percentage points, to 68.9 per cent.

    Great news for NZ 🙂

    • Weepus beard 22.1
      6 August 2014 at 12:22 pm

      All in Christchurch though. Shame this Government relies on that tragedy, and the excruciatingly slow rebuild to spin its growth and employment numbers.

    • Draco T Bastard 22.2
      6 August 2014 at 3:43 pm

      The labour force participation rate decreased 0.3 percentage points, to 68.9 per cent.

      You don’t know what that means do you?

      I’ll put it simply for you – it means that 0.3% of the working age population stopped looking for work and not because they got a job but because they were sick (probably quite literally in many cases) of looking for work and not finding any. It contradicts everything else you posted except the fall in employment rate.

  23. greywarbler 23
    6 August 2014 at 12:22 pm

    Listening to radionz news – three in a row, 77 year old man’s murder, body found on St Helier’s beach, another murder.

    I think there should be an on-line murders and accidental deaths site where one could find out all the latest tragedies, and publish the victim statements. It is so sad to hear the repetitive nature of the grief being repeated once again, and apparently never with the effect of improving the conditions that led to the death.

    It’s depressing that there isn’t reporting about dealing with ongoing problems and future ones – just a ghoulish interest in reports and stats on death and how we hurt each other.

    • Colonial Viper 23.1
      6 August 2014 at 2:17 pm

      focusing on a tragic/violent incident lets the news off the hook from reporting anything substantial about broader systemic problems. (Same as what Hone clumsily referred to when he was asked about the Malaysian diplomat assault)

  24. joe90 24
    6 August 2014 at 12:53 pm

    An Israeli blogger citing an embedded reporter may have jiggered IDF assertions that strikes on UN buildings housing Palestinian civilian refugees were accidental.

    but if it comes to that event, the first time it is published first-hand evidence that approval from headquarters and deadly accurate shooting at a school that was known that it houses hundreds of refugees – and not stray artillery fire as the IDF claims. well if anti-tank missiles were fired from the area of the school, how can you claim that the IDF fired a missile capable of an accuracy of centimeters (“able to slip through precisely buildings windows “) into the populous school is considered” collateral damage avoidance protected population “required by the laws of war and morality?

    IDF official response following an investigation published Sunday, July 27th, the day after the release of Zeno’s testimony, was “anti-tank missiles were fired from the area to the troops, who responded with mortar fire.” The testimony of the reporter who was present and stated that they were not mortars but guided precision missile, contradicts the army’s response to the other contradictions and integrates the research, alternatively determined that “there was no harm to civilians in the UNRWA school … there was an empty courtyard” at the same time “in any case, the death of civilians killed by the IDF in this case is a sad result of the election of Hamas in the civilian as a human shield.”
    UNRWA spokesman confirmed on several occasions that the IDF moved the location of all the schools and refugee camps, to prevent exactly this kind of killing. Zeno’s testimony, even if inadvertently given, confirming the fact that the IDF knew – and chose to ignore, not at the level of the surface may not have been updated, but the highest command level.

    http://www.o139.org/2014/08/blog-post.html

    The google translation.

  25. fisiani 25
    6 August 2014 at 1:20 pm

    If you want to know why John Key will have another three years in government then just look at what Statistics NZ published today. We are on the right track.

    Unemployed of 137,000 is 17,000 fewer than a year ago
    Unemployment rate of 5.6% compared to 6.4% a year ago
    Employed of 2,328,000 – 82,000 more than a year ago
    FT employed up 71,000 and PT employed up 13,000
    65,000 more in labour force than a year ago
    Labour force participation rate is 68.9% compared to 68.1% a year ago
    Maori unemployment rate is 11.0%, down from 12.8% a year ago
    Pasifika unemployment rate is 11.4% down from 16.3% a year ago
    Under 20 unemployment rate is 20.4%, down from 24.1% a year ago
    Manufacturing jobs are 246,500 – up from 242,600 a year ago (recall the crisis!)
    Number of hours worked is up 4.8% from a year ago (highest growth for many years)
    The proportion of under 2os not in employment, study or training has fallen from 8.0% a year ago to 7.4% today

    Salary and wage rates up 1.7% from a year ago
    Manufacturing pay rates up 1.9% from a year ago (recall the crisis!)
    Total weekly gross earnings up 6.3% from a year ago
    Female average earnings as % of male up from 86.7% to 87.1% over a year

    [lprent: Link to the source when you want to quote. It also means that others can start checking and discussing your sources. Don’t link, and I will start deleting the quotes. ]

    • lprent 25.1
      6 August 2014 at 2:39 pm

      Perhaps you should compare over 5 years? And even over the last year I notice that you missed out inflation rates, changes in the CPI, interest rates, and the estimates of the under-employed – ie the ever increasing numbers of involuntary part time and casual workers. What this government doesn’t appear to be able to affect is the number of people in full-time employment.

      Basically this is the government trying to take credit for the world coming out of a recession/depression.

  26. Minarch 26
    6 August 2014 at 2:18 pm

    Check out the company the GOVT had contracted to help spy on us

    of course it because of those naughty gangs isnt it ?

    http://www.hackingteam.it/

    we have 7 of their “Remote Control System” “legal” spyware tool servers operating in NZ currently..

    • Colonial Viper 26.1
      6 August 2014 at 3:45 pm

      What a bunch of bullshit. The NATs won’t even invest in and develop these evil capabilities in-country.

  27. joe90 27
    6 August 2014 at 2:36 pm

    Leaking like a chilly bin house.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/05/politics/u-s-new-leaker/index.html

    Nearly half of the people on the U.S. government’s widely shared database of terrorist suspects are not connected to any known terrorist group, according to classified government documents obtained by The Intercept.

    Of the 680,000 people caught up in the government’s Terrorist Screening Database—a watchlist of “known or suspected terrorists” that is shared with local law enforcement agencies, private contractors, and foreign governments—more than 40 percent are described by the government as having “no recognized terrorist group affiliation.” That category—280,000 people—dwarfs the number of watchlisted people suspected of ties to al Qaeda, Hamas, and Hezbollah combined.

    The documents, obtained from a source in the intelligence community, also reveal that the Obama Administration has presided over an unprecedented expansion of the terrorist screening system. Since taking office, Obama has boosted the number of people on the no fly list more than ten-fold, to an all-time high of 47,000—surpassing the number of people barred from flying under George W. Bush.

    “If everything is terrorism, then nothing is terrorism,” says David Gomez, a former senior FBI special agent. The watchlisting system, he adds, is “revving out of control.”

    https://firstlook.org/theintercept/article/2014/08/05/watch-commander/

  29. Tim 29
    6 August 2014 at 3:10 pm

    Don’t be mean Phil. Kathryn Ryan is fair and balanced in any which way you want to swing:
    economically – her broad spectrum ‘portfolio’; her work/life balance; her list of ‘go-to’s’ and rent-a-quoters’; her propensity between enilsting comment based on nepotism and ‘new blood’; her being down with the folks and being in with the in-crowd; her expertise on anything and everything from parenthood to music……She be the queen (oops Queen)
    She’s God’s gift to mankind, and she’s got a raft of facebook-type friends to prove it. Some of them even pop up on MSM to prove it… from Burma Road socialists to Boombers with guilt. She’s the Queen.
    Don’t be cruel. Your just jealous. She’s what RNZ is to PSB as Juan Williams is to NPR.
    Why Kathryn even subscribes to The Arts Channel (now Skoi Arts)
    Pass the Chardonnay will you darling – this discussion is becoming oh so very boring because Kathryn is an institution that’s become so in touch with both the people, and the movers and shakers. I fuckin adore her!

  30. Tautoko Viper 30
    6 August 2014 at 3:59 pm

    Obama should be giving money for an Iron Dome over Gaza not Israel.
    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/08/04/374067/obama-approves-millions-more-for-israel/

    • Puckish Rogue 30.1
      6 August 2014 at 4:13 pm

      Not wanting to start a flame war but if Hammas stopped using children as human shields, stopped storing weapons in UN buildings and stopped firing rockets at Israel then there’d be no need for an Iron dome

      • phillip ure 30.1.1
        6 August 2014 at 4:24 pm

        maybe you’ve cried ‘wolf!’ a bit too often..?

        • Puckish Rogue 30.1.1.1
          6 August 2014 at 4:27 pm

          Just saying that if Hammas stopped attacking Israel would stop attacking Hammas and if Hammas stopped hiding around civilian populations then there’d be less civilians killed but then Hammas wouldn’t be able to show the worlds media dead children…

          • phillip ure 30.1.1.1.1
            6 August 2014 at 4:31 pm

            not biting..just observing/noting..

            ..it’d be like engaging with a climate-change/moon-landing denier..

            ..who can be bothered..?

          • lprent 30.1.1.1.2
            6 August 2014 at 7:54 pm

            …if Hammas stopped hiding around civilian populations then there’d be less civilians killed…

            What a completely moranic statement. Are you really so completely ignorant that you don’t know anything about Gaza?

            Tell me, have you ever looked at the geography of the Gaza strip… This link is pretty old but not about the land area

            Area: total: 360 sq km

            Irrigated land:120 sq km (1998 est.)

            Wikipedia is a bit more up to date. This map gives a good idea of the urbanised area in Gaza.

            Population
            – 2014 estimate 1,816,379
            – Density 5046/km2
            13,069.1/sq mi

            Click into the image.

            Hamas are of course the governing body in the Gaza strip. They really don’t have areas that aren’t filled with civilians.

            By way of comparision, the size and population density of Auckland city..

            Area
            • Total 637 km2 (246 sq mi)
            Population (30 June 2010)[1]
            • Total 450,300
            • Density 710/km2 (1,800/sq mi)

            Basically you appear to be fuckwit groin clutcher who is too stupid to do some pretty basic research and mostly noticeable for being a lazy parrot for the Israeli PR spinners…

            • Weepus beard 30.1.1.1.2.1
              6 August 2014 at 8:16 pm

              Well done LP. I’ve always wanted to compare Gaza population density with an Israel apologist’s home town population density when they start to froth at the mouth about Hamas supposedly using human shields to hide munitions.

              Guerilla warfare is by definition part time, and bound (by necessity) within the civilian population.

            • swordfish 30.1.1.1.2.2
              6 August 2014 at 10:00 pm

              Ahhh, yeah, Lynn, but let’s not be too ambitious for Pucks, he needs to learn to walk before he can run. Frankly, I’ll be over the moon if he just manages to spell “Hamas” correctly !, given that he’s devoted so much space to dribbling meaningless inanities about the movement.

              Certainly, though, it’s been interesting over recent weeks to witness our very own Tory Tr*lls mindlessly regurgitating official Israeli spin, clearly without possessing even the faintest idea….seems to be a default-position for them. Very telling.

              In terms of the almost 2 Million Palestinians crammed into the Gaza Strip (most of them refugees or their descendants), your Gaza/Auckland comparison can be extended…….

              Gaza’s territory in NZ terms

              (1) Auckland

              Gaza (north to south) is about three-quarters the (north – south) length of Auckland – essentially Papakura to Browns Bay. But Gaza’s width is only a quarter of its length – slightly wider than the North Shore (roughly Takapuna to Hobsonville).

              (2) Coromandel

              Gaza’s about half the length of the Coromandel peninsula and considerably less than half the width.

              (3) Central NI

              Gaza = same length as Lake Taupo but not much more than a third of the width.

              (4) Wellington

              Gaza length = Island Bay to Pukerua Bay. Gaza width = same as Wellington Harbour at its widest point

              (5) Christchurch

              Same length as Banks Peninsula (if measuring Peninsula east to west), but only half the width

              (6) Dunedin

              Gaza length = Waitati in north to a point a little south of Brighton in the south
              Gaza width = Ocean Grove to Half-way Bush

          • Puddleglum 30.1.1.1.3
            6 August 2014 at 8:29 pm

            Hi Puckish Rogue,

            ‘Quiet-for-quiet‘?

            I don’t think that’s true.

            “The most recent cease-fire was established after Israel’s October 2012 assault. Though Israel maintained its devastating siege, Hamas observed the cease-fire, as Israeli officials concede. Matters changed in June, when Fatah and Hamas forged a unity agreement, which established a new government of technocrats that had no Hamas participation and accepted all of the demands of the Quartet. Israel was naturally furious, even more so when even the US joined in signaling approval. The unity agreement not only undercuts Israel’s claim that it cannot negotiate with a divided Palestine, but also threatens the long term goal of dividing Gaza from the West Bank and pursuing its destructive policies in both of the regions.

            Something had to be done, and an occasion arose shortly after, when the three Israeli boys were murdered in the West Bank. The Netanyahu government knew at once that they were dead, but pretended otherwise, which provided the opportunity to launch a rampage in the West Bank, targeting Hamas. Netanhayu claimed to have certain knowledge that Hamas was responsible. That too was a lie, as recognized early on. There has been no pretense of presenting evidence. One of Israel’s leading authorities on Hamas, Shlomi Eldar, reported almost at once that the killers very likely came from a dissident clan in Hebron that has long been a thorn in the side of Hamas. Eldar added that “I’m sure they didn’t get any green light from the leadership of Hamas, they just thought it was the right time to act.” The Israeli police have since been searching for two members of the clan, still claiming, without evidence, that they are “Hamas terrorists.”

            The 18-day rampage however did succeed in undermining the feared unity government, and sharply increasing Israeli repression. According to Israeli military sources, Israeli soldiers arrested 419 Palestinians, including 335 affiliated with Hamas, and killed six Palestinians, also searching thousands of locations and confiscating $350,000. Israel also conducted dozens of attacks in Gaza, killing 5 Hamas members on July 7.

            Hamas finally reacted with its first rockets in 19 months, Israeli officials reported, providing Israel with the pretext for Operation Protective Edge on July 8.“

      • Weepus beard 30.1.2
        6 August 2014 at 6:22 pm

        Nope. If Israel stopped building settlements on top of PA land there’d be no need for an Iron Dome. If Israel stopped inviting every Jewish person on the planet to fill those settlements there’d be no need for an Iron Dome.

        If those two things happened there’d be no need for the kind of destruction we’ve seen over the last two weeks.

      • Paul 30.1.3
        6 August 2014 at 7:49 pm

        Any chance you could outline National’s policies to tackle systemic poverty in New Zealand?
        Your leader doesn’t seem to want to discuss policy, so wondered if you could help out.

      • Paul 30.1.4
        6 August 2014 at 7:57 pm

        What a disgraceful statement.
        By the way, can you outline National’s policies to reverse our declining environment in New Zealand?
        Your leader doesn’t seem to want to discuss policy, so wondered if you could help out.

      • joe90 30.1.5
        6 August 2014 at 8:17 pm

        If the IDF propaganda about accidental strikes on UN facilities is collapsing so when the UN facilities are used as arsenals narrative falls over will you admit your gullibility?.

  31. Puckish Rogue 31
    6 August 2014 at 4:03 pm

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11304914

    Might I suggest T. Mallard for the role, he seems to know quite a bit about this sort of thing

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/164612/Mallard-wrong-but-refuses-to-say-sorry

  32. felix 32
    6 August 2014 at 5:24 pm

    John Keys really is just an old fashioned sexist pig of a man when it comes down to it.

    Sugar daddy, John? Really, you’re going with that?

    ffs.

  33. Ad 33
    6 August 2014 at 5:44 pm

    Sure, unemployment down especially in Canterbury.
    But 40% fall in dairy price in 6 months.
    Dollar falls nearly 2 cents in 2 days: global market analysts clear that NZs dairying vulnerability far more important than employment.

    Wake up National.

  34. felix 34
    6 August 2014 at 6:00 pm

    Anyone here connected to Sue Moroney’s campaign? Seen a few of her billboards around Hamilton, but yet to see a picture of David Cunliffe.

    Listen carefully: You are working hard to get back into opposition but nothing more. You can not win the election by winning electorates. Capiche?

  35. Ennui 35
    6 August 2014 at 8:07 pm

    The Associate Transport Minister has announced a time limit for Learners licenses. This is because a huge number of people refuse to go to the next stage.

    I am one. I have been car licensed for four decades but also drive a scooter on a learners. The reason for this is the cost. Its a $500 rort. Then theres the time restrictions. …all in the name of safety. What a load of revenue raising bollocks.

    • Draco T Bastard 35.1
      6 August 2014 at 8:18 pm

      Personally, I think a drivers licence should get you driving any non-commercial vehicle up to about 2 tonne. From there you’d need specialist licences to drive heavy trucks, trailers, forklifts and diggers.

      Oh, and I’ve never been enthusiastic about leaner’s licences. Much better idea to require that people have the required training to get the licence in the first place.

  36. joe90 36
    6 August 2014 at 8:24 pm

    Not good.

    .

    By now, you’ve heard of the crater on the Yamal Peninsula. It’s the one that suddenly appeared, yawning nearly 200 feet in diameter, and made several rounds in the global viral media machine. The adjectives most often used to describe it: giant, mysterious, curious. Scientists were subsequently “baffled.” Locals were “mystified.” There were whispers that aliens were responsible. Nearby residents peddled theories of “bright flashes” and “celestial bodies.”

    […]

    There’s now a substantiated theory about what created the crater. And the news isn’t so good.

    It may be methane gas, released by the thawing of frozen ground. According to a recent Nature article, “air near the bottom of the crater contained unusually high concentrations of methane — up to 9.6% — in tests conducted at the site on 16 July, says Andrei Plekhanov, an archaeologist at the Scientific Centre of Arctic Studies in Salekhard, Russia. Plekhanov, who led an expedition to the crater, says that air normally contains just 0.000179% methane.”

    The scientist said the methane release may be related to Yamal’s unusually hot summers in 2012 and 2013, which were warmer by an average of 5 degrees Celsius. “As temperatures rose, the researchers suggest, permafrost thawed and collapsed, releasing methane that had been trapped in the icy ground,” the report stated.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/05/scientists-may-have-cracked-the-giant-siberian-crater-mystery-and-the-news-isnt-good

  37. the voter 37
    7 August 2014 at 10:46 pm

    You can fool some of the people some of the time and all of the people some of the time but Key thinks he can fool all of the people all of the time.
    This election is going to be a mill stone for the winner because of the TPPA and who ever has to take responsibility for selling our sovereignty will be damned as the leader ,which plays nicely for Key because it will probably swing a third term for him and if not will probably paint another PM as a liar and give them only a term which is all Key needs to complete his economic and political mission to squash any major left wing destruction of his last 2 terms ,a sacrifice, if needs be by Key to get done what he knows will happen to NZ and not be made directly responsible for it and if he gets his 3rd term he will be able to annihilate the left and any of the old NZ left values will be gone for good unless there is a real revolution brought about by the mass of losers that will be most of us
    Clever Key you think ,just a scenario I dreamed up

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