Key withdraws promise to resign

Written By: - Date published: 12:03 pm, March 10th, 2015 - 102 comments
Categories: accountability, john key, Spying - Tags: , , , ,

key-resign

PM won’t give assurance NZers not caught in eavesdropping

Key says he won’t quit if mass collection of Kiwis’ communications proved

NEW ZEALAND PRIME MINISTER RETRACTS VOW TO RESIGN IF MASS SURVEILLANCE IS SHOWN

key-resign-no

102 comments on “Key withdraws promise to resign”

  1. Al 1

    More truth from Mr Key’s mouth – does he actually have any credibility at all – well judging by the election results he does. National voters are so gullible or do they not mind a corrupt and deceitful leader and government? It appears the answer is yes to both assertions.

  2. No worries J Key.

    The points against you are stacking up by the day.
    You will not need to worry about resigning because you will be tossed out on your ear and the sooner the better.

  3. saveNZ 3

    He really is a puppet of the US.

    • Murray Rawshark 3.1

      I’ve seen claims that he’s a US citizen. Wouldn’t surprise me. Can an alien buy property in Hawaii? If he is a US citizen, he would have sworn allegiance to bald eagles, American exceptionalism, and apple pie. This could conflict with his swearing in as PM. Maybe he crossed his fingers behind his back?

  4. Anne 4

    National voters are gullible because they have covered their eyes and blocked their ears. They are in denial because the don’t want to have to face the truth.

    They are the ‘purely’ political version of Climate Change deniers.

    • Unicus 4.1

      Just like year one kids defying Mum – eyes closed – hands over ears – shouting bla -bla-bla-bla !

    • Tracey 4.2

      He has made them look foolish, so instead of changing their minds they convince themselves they have not been made fools…

    • Amanda Atkinson 4.3

      I don’t think it’s helpful to assume you have superior intelligence to someone who has voted differently to you. Extreme left and right voters both believe they have superior intelligence to those less enlightened (vote differently to them). Get over yourself.

      • Tracey 4.3.1

        Do you think National voters of the last few years just don’t value honesty Amanda? (genuine question).

        • Amanda Atkinson 4.3.1.1

          Doesn’t matter. Claiming superior intelligence is just pure arrogance. Claim the moral high ground, sure. But assuming you have higher level of intelligence to someone who has a different political view, is just silly. Both extremes of the political spectrum as bad as each other for this.

          • Tracey 4.3.1.1.1

            it doesn’t matter if they are gullible? If they are not gullible, then one alternative is they don’t value honesty, so find it irrelevant whether Key is honest or not.

          • Colonial Rawshark 4.3.1.1.2

            Amanda – the “claiming superior intelligence” assertion is yours alone and it is inaccurate. Anne was talking about gullibility. Don’t mix the concepts up. Every propagandist knows that smart people and educated people are just as gullible as everyone else, and history shows that is so.

            • Tracey 4.3.1.1.2.1

              some research suggests they are most gullible, in relation to propaganda, and great conduits cos they can’t wait to pass it on (see Jaques Ellul).

            • Bill 4.3.1.1.2.2

              Although, to be fair CV, that fucking annoyingly stupid assertion is made on a fairly regular basis by some here. Just saying…

            • Amanda Atkinson 4.3.1.1.2.3

              Assuming gullibility is an assumption that someone does not have the intelligence to see through the smoke and mirrors, when you can see through it. You are playing with words.

              • Grant

                Are you really trying to argue that intelligent people can’t be naive?

                • Amanda Atkinson

                  Oh Grant don’t be so silly, you can clearly (very) see that is not my point. The author is assuming that half our fellow Kiwis are gullible, and less intelligent than the author, just because they voted for the Nat’s. That’s a pretty big assumption. That’s all my point is.

                  • Colonial Rawshark

                    People voting for the NATs is commonly about their class interests and about their financial interests, and plenty of intelligent educated people choose to ride that caboose.

                    The Left has to accept that its been doing a pretty shite job of letting people know where their best interests correctly understood actually lie.

                    Assuming gullibility is an assumption that someone does not have the intelligence to see through the smoke and mirrors

                    Again, that’s not how propaganda works. Intelligent people who keep up with the news every day are just as, or even more, susceptible to propaganda.

                  • Grant

                    You’re the only one here who is insisting on equating gullibility (naivety) and intelligence whilst being too silly to realise that you are conflating two separate concepts.

              • Anne

                Actually I was replying to AI who said @ 1:

                National voters are so gullible or do they not mind a corrupt and deceitful leader and government? It appears the answer is yes to both assertions.

                You must not take these things to heart sweetie. We can see you are upset that your beloved leader is in a spot of bother but that’s politics. (sarc)

        • Amanda Atkinson 4.3.1.2

          You assume they are gullible. Pure arrogance. Same as Slater’s mob. Thankfully most Kiwis are in the middle and do not value other Kiwis more or less (or make assumptions about their intelligence) according to their vote. Good grief.

          • greywarshark 4.3.1.2.1

            Amanda Atkinson
            And you can make a sweeping statement on behalf of all of a measurable and observable class that you consider you belong to? ‘Most Kiwis..do not value others….according to their vote.’ Very confident you are. That amount of assumption indicates the extent of your ignorance. The feelings of distaste expressed by many of The Smug about the Green Party is a good yardstick.

            Good grief, there are a lot of unthinking numpties out there if you do represent the vast majority. (Another generalisation to call out your one!)
            edited

          • Grace Miller 4.3.1.2.2

            Zip it, sweetie, the grownups are trying to talk 😉

      • Anne 4.3.2

        What the hell is this silly Amanda talking about? 😛

        Got a right wee bee in her bonnet hasn’t she…

  5. BLiP 5

    Sure, John Key said he would resign if there was “mass surveillance” – but what’s going on at the GCSB is “mass collection”. No need to worry your little heads about these things, Daddy State is making sure everything is legal. Now, go back to sleep.

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1503/S00076/john-key-on-mass-collection-versus-mass-surveillance.htm

  6. Colonial Rawshark 6

    Great material to attack Key with, but the reality is that there is a whole security and surveillance establishment behind him for which he is only the (temporary) front man for.

    • felix 6.1

      Yeah, but it wasn’t the whole security and surveillance establishment that promised to resign.

    • infused 6.2

      Not really. This would happen under any govt. You won’t see Little attack the spying stuff. you will see him attack Key.

      • felix 6.2.1

        Key promised there was no mass surveillance of NZers and promised to resign if there was.

        Turns out there is, according to the bloke who used to run it.

        Key is yet to announce his resignation.

        How do you figure that “would happen under any govt”? Any govt stupid enough to put Key in charge of the spies I suppose.

        • Tracey 6.2.1.1

          Labour, apparently also promised to resign if there was mass surveillance of NZers… infused just forgot to link to it.

  7. emergency mike 7

    Like any good sociopath, Key understands that promises are just words that you say in a given moment to get what you want. These words are not real things, they can’t hurt you. Amazingly, people seem to believe these words, and you get what you want. If someone tries to hold you to that promise later, you can just find a way to BS your way out of it.

    • Draco T Bastard 7.1

      +1

      • greywarshark 7.1.1

        +111

        • greywarshark 7.1.1.1

          +111
          Reminds me much of that Paul Simon song line –
          ‘A pocketful of mumbles, Such are promises.’

          It’s from The Boxer:
          I am just a poor boy.
          Though my story’s seldom told,
          I have squandered my resistance
          For a pocketful of mumbles,
          Such are promises
          All lies and jest
          Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
          And disregards the rest.
          The Boxer” is a folk rock ballad written by Paul Simon in 1968 and first recorded by Simon & Garfunkel. http://genius.com/2435496/

          Cover from Mumford & Sons

  8. Draco T Bastard 8

    What’s the chances that National would be able to hold on to Helensville if he resigns? Considering the way that Northland is going I’d say very, very slim which means that this government would collapse and there’s no way that National or Key would let that happen if they can help it.

  9. Bea Brown 9

    I much prefer Andrew Little’s honesty and directness when he says on TV, “I don’t have to be upfront with the Northland voters”.
    Now there’s a politician we can trust!

    • One Anonymous Bloke 9.1

      😆

      …but but but but but but Lllllaaaaabbbbbooooouuuuurrrrrr!

      Personal responsibility is a right wing lie: whenever they’re called upon to own anything they start whining.

      • Redbaiter 9.1.1

        That is actually quite delusional.

        A true right winger would have halved govt spending and reduced debt.

        Key has taken the National Party way into Labour territory. He has increased govt spending and he has increased debt.

        Given this clear fact, how could anyone describe Key as “right wing”?

        Sure Key bends the truth, but its not becasue he is right wing. He isn’t. He’s actually far left on any real political spectrum (IOW not confined to 25% of the left hand end.)

        • One Anonymous Bloke 9.1.1.1

          Another liar: Labour always decreases government debt.

          • Redbaiter 9.1.1.1.1

            A comment that does not address the point of Labour/ National sameness and makes a cowardly allegation that is only designed to smear.

            Why in most cases its pointless trying to debate anything rationally with leftists.

            • Lanthanide 9.1.1.1.1.1

              “A comment that does not address the point of Labour/ National sameness”

              It did, by refuting your claim.

              You said National has gone into Labour territory, and your example was because they increased government debt.

              Your example is flawed, because Labour reduce government debt.

              In other words, National is doing exactly what they always do, and are right wing.

              “and makes a cowardly allegation that is only designed to smear.”

              No, that was you, by claiming Labour increase government debt, when they don’t.

              “Why in most cases its pointless trying to debate anything rationally with leftists.”

              Yes, because you make things up, don’t believe in reality and accuse everyone else of doing what you’ve just done. I can see how that would make it difficult to debate with others.

            • adam 9.1.1.1.1.2

              That’s because you almost always descended into personal abuse Redbater. It’s best to slap you and yours in the side of the head first – as disingenuous, is normal for you and your ilk.

          • alwyn 9.1.1.1.2

            You really do get carried away when you make a claim don’t you?

            Remember about a month ago when you claimed that unemployment under HC was the lowest it had ever been in New Zealand’s history?

            Open mike 03/02/2015

            You’ve done it again. Have a quick look at New Zealand Government debt at the end of 1972 and at the end of 1975. Google will find you the numbers.
            It rose spectacularly didn’t it?
            Or go back to the source and look at the figures for 1935 and 1949. Lot more isn’t it?
            Why don’t you qualify your claims. Finding counter-examples to your claims is like catching fish in a barrel.

            • lprent 9.1.1.1.2.1

              You should look at that against the unemployed figures?

              There was a rather expensive war in 1939. And another one in 1973.

              And didn’t the debt keep rising after 1975? How do you account for that?

              • alwyn

                Of course. That’s why I chose them. I was pretty sure they would qualify as having increased, they were easy to check, and you will note I am not blaming the then Governments for any of it.

                I was only commenting on “One Anonymous Bloke” who is incredibly quick to throw the epithet “liar” at people who says things he doesn’t approve of and then indulges in hyperbole himself.

                Why doesn’t he stick to things that are right, or at least arguable, instead of making wild extrapolations to his claims and which are so easily disproved by the facts?

          • Colonial Rawshark 9.1.1.1.3

            Another liar: Labour always decreases government debt.

            Yep. National spend up big on their supporters, Labour goes stingy on theirs.

            And we wonder why the NATs keep winning.

          • Murray Rawshark 9.1.1.1.4

            Labour is hardly left wing.

        • Tracey 9.1.1.2

          “into Labour territory. He has increased govt spending and he has increased debt. ”

          Proof that the last Labour government increased govt spending and debt from 1999?

        • Draco T Bastard 9.1.1.3

          A true right winger would have halved govt spending and reduced debt.

          Now that is truly delusional. Everything that the right-whingers have tried has always resulted in higher government spending and higher government debt. Probably has something to do with paying their mates out with taxpayers money.

    • freedom 9.2

      I missed whatever interview that was from, would you mind supplying a link please Bea?

      • One Anonymous Bloke 9.2.1

        She’s lying. It’s all part of her dishonest lip service to personal responsibility.

    • Bill 9.3

      Context.

      Tova O’Brien: You’re speaking in nods and winks, why aren’t you just being up front with Northland voters?
      Andrew Little: I don’t have to be upfront with the Northland voters, they are capable of making that decision themselves.

      Well done OAB and Framu for throwing a heap of oxygen on some shit and, through the making of a baseless allegation, ensuring that the added oxygen got fanned.

      See, this is what pisses me off. You made a baseless allegation that I’d to waste my fucking time checking on, seeing as how blatant lying would bring a ban on down. Not impressed with either of you.

  10. emergency mike 10

    Worth listening to the Espiner interview. Asks: “Do NZers have a right to know if the govt is collecting their digital info?” answer: “In general, no.”

    Key seemed unable to grasp that Espiner seemed to be asking him about a fundamental ‘right to know’, but Key was rather only interested in describing the GCSB’s legal limits. Thus Espiner kept trying to get a straight answer for the NZ people, and Key kept on sounding like a lawyer representing the defence of the GCSB.

    Well done Espiner for pushing the point, 10mins of Key saying he can’t answer a simple question because he can’t be expected to know what other people mean when they use words.

  11. Bea Brown 11

    Last night on the news – I can’t remember if TV1 or TV3 but he definitely said it and I thought at last we have a leader who is honest.

  12. Bea Brown 12

    Watch TV3 News on Demand last night – interview with Tova.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 12.1

      I did. You’re lying. Like you always do.

      • Bill 12.1.1

        No OAB, she isn’t lying. Andrew Little uttered those precise words as a segment of a sentence in that interview at about the 2 min mark.

        Now you can argue over context and intent etc, but how about you desist with that particular accusation now? ta.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 12.1.1.1

          I’m arguing about context and intent. Quote mining is lying.

          “I apologise for being a man…”

          “To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree.”

          Is Bea reporting Little’s intent honestly? If you say so.

          [There wasn’t a word on context or intent in any of your previous comments. All you did was make a blunt accusation. Repeatedly. Somebody in your shoes at this moment might reflect on the wisdom (or lack of) in pursuing this exchange in any way, shape or form given that I’ve already stated I’m pissed off with the time wasting occasioned by your nonsense.] – Bill

          • veutoviper 12.1.1.1.1

            I have just relistened to that video – and Little does use those words at about 2 minutes BUT in the context of repeatedly telling Tova that Northland voters are capable of making up their own minds, and sending a message to National etc.

            IMO Bea B was being disingenuous in taking them out of context going on her previous form here (and in the Herald opinion comments) – unless she has had a road to Damascus experience which I somehow think is unlikely.

            SNAP – Sabine has quoted the context much more clearly/fully below.

            • Bill 12.1.1.1.1.1

              She was being disingenuous.

              And Sabine has offered context but through equally bad quoting (if she’s quoting from the two minute mark). That part of the interview is what I wrote above. (Added in the entire answer up to the next question here)

              Tova O’Brien: You’re speaking in nods and winks, why aren’t you just being up front with Northland voters?

              Andrew Little: I don’t have to be upfront with the Northland voters, they are capable of making that decision themselves and they’ll make that decision. They know what the issues are and if they decide that they’ve had enough of being neglected by National MPs and National Governments then they’ll vote accordingly on the 28th of March”

              • Colonial Rawshark

                that first sentence is not really a well crafted thing to start off with to a reporter eh.

    • framu 12.2

      then link it liar

      • Bill 12.2.1

        OAB has provided the link at 12.1.

        All of you. Cut the ‘liar’ crap.

        • Sabine 12.2.1.1

          Actually Bea is lying in her interpretation of what Andrew Little said.

          the reporter asked Andrew Little repeatedly if he wants to instruct Northland voters to vote for Winston Peters. (i don’t think this stenograpgher from TV3 had any other question prepared)

          and Andrew Little repeatedly said: The Northland voters are capable of making up their own mind, and if they are over being neglected by National they will vote accordingly. (i did like his eyeroll….a very patient man he is)

          Reporter than asks: why are you not upfront with the Northland Voters

          Andrew Little: I don’t have to be upfront with the northland voters as I don’t get to vote in the election. It is up to the Northland voters to make up their mind, look at the issues, listen to the candidates and if they want to send a message to National that they had enough of neglect and disregard they vote accordingly.

          So in fact he is saying, that he believes that Northland voters are able to send the national candidate home packing, by NOT VOTING FOR NATIONAL.

          the bit where Andrew just said he does not have to be upfront – Full stop ….is only in Bea’s head.

          In fact this whole interview is a disgrace. This was not about the Northland election, about the reasons for the Northland by election, about the cost of the Northland by election to the Tax payer, about the disruption to government cause by the hubris of this national government running a candidate they knew could end up in prison, but about Andrew Little NOT endorsing Winston Peters.

          Better trolls please, these are not fun, not witty, and have poops for brains.

          • Bill 12.2.1.1.1

            Yes Sabine, Bea is twisting the intent and should definitely have inserted the customary three dots at the end of the segment she pasted to indicate it was a partially quoted sentence. She’s not the only one who quotes like a monkey around these parts though 😉

            But anyway, neither OAB or Framu accused anyone of twisting context or any such like. They simply stated boldly that the person was lying when they claimed Andrew Little had uttered those words.

            Anyway. I don’t know why Labour haven’t run with something along the lines that voting Labour and not voting National are not necessarily two of the same thing. Might have been less open to ‘Gotcha’ type questioning?

            • Sabine 12.2.1.1.1.1

              No she is not twisting anything. What she said is clear. Anyone who reads this comment and does not know about the interview would believe that Andrew Little just said: I don’t have to be upfront with Voters.

              That statement of hers was a lie. simple as that. The intent was to promote a false hood. Also called a lie.

              Labour has not reason to say anything more than what Little said.
              A. We have a candidate, her name is Jean Willow Prime, she knows the issues, she is qualified, she is campaigning, she is talking to the voters, she is doing her thing with the support of the Labour Party and volunteers.

              B. The Northland voters knows the issues, they can speak to the candidates, they can make up their own mind and vote accordingly. If they want to send a Message to National about neglect and the likes, they can send a Message by NOT VOTING FOR NATIONAL>

              Now i know how Natbots can have a sad over Point B: DO NOT VOTE FOR NATIONAL…..but answer me this. Why on earth did National run a candidate that being investigated by the police. did they really think that it would not matter, and that Mike Sabin would just get to stay MP and all would be pink n glitter?

              This is not about Labour and Andrew Little, this is about the ineptitude of the National Party, their atrocious choice of candidates for MP, and their squandering of our taxpayers money on by elections a few weeks after a general election.

              Anyways, Bill/Bea I am bored with you know. Better Natbots please.

              [ You’re free to be bored for a week for insinuating that I’m a ‘Natbot’. Goodbye] – Bill

              • her name is Jean Willow Prime

                I appreciate Sabine will not be able to reply to this, but gosh I have to 🙄 at the number of people who want to attack Little’s behaviour in Northland but can’t even get the candidate’s name right.

              • Anne

                I saw that interview and came to a similar conclusion Sabine. Tova O’Brien was angling to get Little to say something that could then be misrepresented and used against him. That is why she persisted with the same question over and over again – albeit from slightly different angles. She’s been having “gotcha” lessons from her political editor, Patrick Gower.

                BB is an unpleasant – as opposed to the less unpleasant – NAct trole. What do you get in return for your efforts here Bea?

        • framu 12.2.1.2

          kind of trying to get Bea Brown to do the work there bill – if a person with a history of certain behaviour refuses to provide their own link why should we believe them?

          and how are we to know that the link OAB put up is the same thing BB is referring to?

          as people have established its not an outright lie – then sure – i’ll stop using the word. But to date Bea Brown still hasnt proven themselves in any way on this one and its taken others doing the work for them.

          So we just let people make claims without back up now?

          • Bill 12.2.1.2.1

            Choosing to simply not believe what somebody is saying is different to accusing them of lying.

            So we just let people make claims without back up now?

            Pot. Kettle. Do you think I should sanction you for making something up that was subsequently disproven?

            OAB provided the link that proved Bea wasn’t lying. And yet…

            • One Anonymous Bloke 12.2.1.2.1.1

              Yeah, it was my bad: I actually watched the interview and still missed the reference Bea & Bill spotted.

              Apologies to all concerned, apart from Bea, who deserves it for quote mining.

            • Sabine 12.2.1.2.1.2

              In her misquote, selective reporting and cherrypicking of the quote she was lying. She was implying that A. Little said something he did not.

              [See next comment up] – Bill

            • framu 12.2.1.2.1.3

              well apologies bill and others (thats an honest one)

              i was trying to prod someone who usually never backs up anything they say, even when you ask nicely

              and now that its been pointed out, i acknowledged and desisted – as soon as it was pointed out.

  13. Bea Brown 13

    But he did say it and our household cheered at the honesty from a politician. And I didn’t interpret it at all just repeated what he said.
    However, I guess there’ll be no more misquoting or selective reporting or cherry-picking from anyone else from now on including statements from the Government.
    And I expect it’s always easier to shout Liar but most of us got over that at primary school.

    • Sabine 13.1

      If you don’t want to be called a liar, you could/should

      a. add link to your comment
      b. type out full quote

      the only one that misquoted, selectively reported and cherry picked quotes from an interview that was over 5 minutes long and only consisted of two questions was you.

      simple as that. You got called out. Poor you.

      [See above comment] – Bill

    • Tracey 13.2

      As your household cheered at honesty from a politician, none of them voted National in 2011 or 2014 or their support parties, right Bea?

      This thread is about John Key lying. How about your comments on that?

  14. Amanda Atkinson 14

    Perfect timing for the Food Terrorism threat to the dairy industry. Now Key can say, that’s why we need mass surveillance, look at what nut jobs we have amongst us, these terrorists will kill babies in China by putting 1080 poison in the baby powder. Is this a jack up by John Key to justify mass surveillance? I wonder who will be the first nutter to claim that?

    • Tracey 14.1

      So, what do you think about Key’s apparent u-turn on resigning over mass surveillance? Did he lie or not?

    • felix 14.2

      How is the threat “perfect timing” though when it’s three months old?

      It’s only the release of the information that appears conveniently timed.

  15. fisiani 15

    Who cares about the foreign intelligence service doing foreign intelligence? This is hardly news.
    Why quote Honest John Key out of context? Oh that’s right, trying to bag John Key. It has not worked. Still think it will resonate with the public? Keep trying – it merely shows how good he is. I suppose it cheers up the radicals. Self righteous twats.

    • felix 15.1

      Mass collection of thousands of NZers’ communications by a NZ agency is not “foreign intelligence” work, fizzy, it’s domestic spying.

  16. Ecosse_Maidy 17

    Genralissimo Keys withdraws promise to resign if GCSB/Gestapo found guilty of mass surveilance?
    Why are we surprised at this? Why is this news?

    This is what he does and Kiwis have been conditioned to accept, shut eyes, fingers in ears and told to concentrate over there on 1080 or Brave Men & Women sent to Iraq to please his Golf Buddie or Fruit Flies being give contracts to build Bridges….

    Don’t Look Here! Look Over There People!

    Also It Wasn’t Me, I Didn’t Do It!

  17. John 18

    Surveillance, by it’s very definition, is a “close watch” on someone.

    When someone is being surveilled, there is normally a whole team doing it. So by it’s very definition, mass surveillance is virtually impossible.

    If you call data sieving mass surveillance, then you’d also have to say facebook, google, apple, twitter, amazon, ebay, trademe, tripadvisor, booking ,com, and almost every major website on the internet is conducting mass surveillance.

    • Murray Rawshark 18.1

      I’d say collecting all your communications is a pretty close watch. As for your rubbish about a team, this just means that Key won’t be happy until 80% of us are spies, watching the other 20%.

      Now run away and help Osborne in Northland. He needs it.

      • John 18.1.1

        My computer and phone also have all my communications. They’re not carrying out surveillance on me – for that to happen a someone needs to actually have a close look at them.

        And spark and google also have all my communications.

        That doesn’t mean they’re carrying out survellance either, even though I’d bet they’ve found had a significantly deeper look into my communications than the government ever has.

        Even by using news websites like TV3, you agree to allow software to be installed on your computer to track what websites you visit.

        • Murray Rawshark 18.1.1.1

          No I don’t. I block tracking. I can choose which sites I access and how much I use a cellphone. I can’t choose what the government does and I don’t trust them to make good decisions. As a responsible adult, I like making my own. No dominatrix state for me, thank you very much.

          Osborne still needs your help. He’ll need it even more after the 18th.

  18. John 19

    Just by visiting sites like TV3 you are agreeing to let them use browser fingerprinting which can track what sites you look at, regardless of whether you are blocking tracking , have cookies turned off etc.

    And just by having you cellphone turned on, your provider can track where you are.

    • McFlock 19.1

      That’s nice.
      Remember when the biggest worry people had with the government was lightbulbs or how fast a car was going? Rather than illegal mass surveillance by a government department that seems to largely work for a foreign government?

      • John 19.1.1

        If that’s a huge worry to you, then you’re either a crook who deserves to get caught, or paranoid.

        Like most people, I don’t really care, and find it amusing that some people try to make as big a deal as possible out of something that has such inconsequential effect on our daily lives.

        On my list of things to be worried about, being surveilled by the govt comes in somewhere just below worrying about what colour my next tooth brush will be.

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  • If we are to avoid making the earth uninhabitable, we need to rapidly decarbonise our civilisation, and cut emissions to zero as quickly as possible. This seems like an impossible task, but its not. Pushing hard on a few technologies and trends will let us halve emissions in a decade:Greenhouse ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    14 hours ago
  • A further attack on transparency
    The Local Government Act 2002 Amendment Bill (No 2) had part of its committee stage yesterday. its a generally tedious bill about the nitty-gritty of local government reorganisation. But it includes a clause making the Local Government Commission subject to the Ombudsmen Act, and hence the OIA. Great! Except of ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    15 hours ago
  • Ihumātao and Treaty settlements
    Yesterday Ihumātao's mana whenua reached a consensus that they would like their land back, and asked the government to negotiate with Fletcher's for its return. The government's response? Try and undermine that consensus, while talking about how doing anything would undermine existing Treaty settlements. The first is just more bad ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    19 hours ago
  • Protecting our history
    Its Suffrage Day, the 126th anniversary of women winning the right to vote (but not stand in elections) in New Zealand. And to celebrate, the government has bought Kate Sheppard's house in Christchurch:The government has bought Kate Sheppard's former home in Christchurch for more than $4 million. The Ilam villa ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    20 hours ago
  • Climate Change: Ostracising the coal-burners
    The UN climate summit is happening in new York next week, and unlike previous years, coal-burners and denier-states are not being invited to speak:Leading economies such as Japan and Australia will not be invited to speak at next week’s crunch UN climate change summit, as their continued support for coal ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    20 hours ago
  • Jojo Tamihere Salutes Herr Goff.
    Get Back Jojo! The elation in Mayor Phil Goff’s camp may be easily imagined as they watched social media light up in indignation at challenger John Tamihere’s "Sieg Heil to that" quip. Just when JT’s notoriously right-wing, sexist and homophobic stains were beginning to fade back into his ‘colourful’ past, ...
    23 hours ago
  • Hard News: A fun but flawed weed documentary
    Patrick Gower is good value when he's high. Not that I've ever, you know, got stoned with him. But in the second part of his documentary Patrick Gower on Weed, he does what you'd expect in a modern weed documentary and immerses himself – first with a doctor, then a ...
    1 day ago
  • Candidate Survey: Western Bay of Plenty – Local Body Elections 2019
    We surveyed candidates on their attitudes to issues facing the Western Bay Region, find out what they think: “Closing the Gap” Tauranga, one of the area groups of Income Equality Aotearoa NZ Inc., has surveyed all candidates in the three local body elections to discover attitudes to some basic issues ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    2 days ago
  • Project Nettie calls on scientists to defend biology
    Please spread widely, and sign, to support science and rationalism over the new irrationalism sweeping universities and institutions.  PROJECT NETTIE Sexual reproduction, the generation of offspring by fusion of genetic material from two different individuals, evolved over 1 billion years ago. It is the reproductive strategy of all higher animals ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 days ago
  • I’m glad I don’t live in Auckland
    Just when I was thinking that Palmerston North's mayoral race (which includes a convicted child molester / public wanker and a convicted child beater) was the worst in the country, Auckland mayoral candidate John Tamihere opened his mouth:Auckland mayoral candidate John Tamihere is being slammed for using the words "sieg ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • Index of Power Update, 2018-19: China #2
    We reprint below an article from the excellent website the Economics of Imperialism by Tony Norfield This is an update of the statistics for my Index of Power, using data for 2018-19 and discussing what a country’s ranking reflects. The major change is that China’s rank has shifted up and ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 days ago
  • Climate Change: A history lesson
    Why is New Zealand climate change policy so crap? The Herald this morning has a long article on the twists and turns of climate change policy in New Zealand [paywalled / depaywall script], which shows where we've been. The short version is that the government first began worrying about this ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • What the All Blacks Mean to Us
    The All Blacks have been, for more than a century, arguably the most successful International sports team in the world. But they are more than that; even for those Kiwis who are immune to the charms of rugby (and there are more than a few), the All Blacks are ambassadors ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    2 days ago
  • No one is born into the wrong body
    A short and incredibly powerful speech from a young lesbian woman. No one is born in the wrong body. ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    3 days ago
  • Contempt
    Back in June, the UK Court of Appeal ruled that that country's continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia were unlawful. So you'd expect that the UK government stopped approving them, right?Of course not:The government has apologised for breaching a court ruling against the sale of weapons to Saudi Arabia that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • Covering up the cover-up
    Yesterday NZDF officials were put on the stand about the lies they had told over Operation Burnham, making implausible claims that it was all a big mistake. But along the way, we learned they had already been put on the spot about it by a previous Defence Minister, who had ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • Not as important as they think they are
    Farmers have been whining a lot lately, about the methane targets in the Zero Carbon Bill, about Canterbury's proposed nitrogen limits, and about the government's new proposals to stop them from shitting in our lakes and rivers. These policies are "throwing farmers under the tractor", they will force farmers off ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • Behind Every Good Woman Should Stand – Another Good Woman.
    Alone, Alone, All, All, Alone: To argue that the Prime Minister is the victim of her advisers’ failure to keep her informed may offer Jacinda some measure of exoneration – but only at the cost of casting her as a hopeless political ingénue. A star-dusted muppet, whose only purpose is to ...
    3 days ago
  • Poor quality, poorly educated kiddie ‘Journalists’ spreading fake news
    In times of hysteria about the “World coming to an end” and “rising sea levels” so-called ‘Journalists’ who can barely spell words longer than four letters are having a ball! Though the majority of the Public have worked out that manmade climate change is nothing short of pseudo-science, and the ...
    An average kiwiBy admin@averagekiwi.com
    3 days ago
  • Chris Trotter on the BFD
    I don't want to give pblicity to certain parts of the internet that are better left to fester in their own irrelevance (I know, a bit like this place) but the listing of Chris Trotter as a 'author' on Cameron Slater's spinoff website, the BFD requires some explanation.Now, I don't ...
    3 days ago
  • Sex is not a spectrum
    The text below is a Twitter thread by Heather Heying that explains the essence of sexual reproduction and it long evolutionary history. She is an evolutionary biologist and a “professor-in-exile” after she and her husband, Bret Weinstein, stood up to supporters of an enforced “Day of Absence” for white staff and teachers ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    3 days ago
  • Climate Change: Trees, aviation, and offsets
    With crunch time for new Zealand climate policy approaching, most of the New Zealand media have got on board with a global reporting effort to cover the issue. There's one strand of stories today about polling and what it shows about changing public attitudes to the crisis, but the strand ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • Pissing-Off The Israelis Is A High-Risk Strategy.
    Dangerous Foes: For those readers of Bowalley Road who feel disposed to dismiss any prospect of an Israeli destabilisation of New Zealand politics, the example of the United Kingdom repays close attention. Ever since the election of Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the British Labour Party, the Israelis have sanctioned, funded and ...
    4 days ago
  • Something to go to in Wellington
    Make It 16, the youth-led campaign to lower New Zealand's voting age, is holding an official campaign launch at Parliament this Friday from 16:30. If you'd like to attend, you can register using EventBrite here. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • A founding member responds to Peace Action Wellington
    by Don Franks It was a lovely sunny Wellington afternoon with blue skies above  the beaches.  In Courtenay Place, political activists packed out a stuffy upstairs room for an important meeting. The assembled pacifists, anarchists, communists and independent young radicals of Peace Action Wellington felt the need for a mission ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    4 days ago
  • “Mistakes and errors”
    Current and former NZDF top brass are being publicly grilled this week by the hit and run inquiry over their public responses to allegations of civilian casualties. Previously, they've claimed there were no casualties, a position which led them to lie to Ministers and to the public. Now, they're saying ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • “Homosexuality is same-sex attraction and relationships, not heterosexuals with delusions of gende...
    by Rafael D. Quiles (gender-critical gay man from Puerto Rico) The writing on the wall is right in people’s faces and people just don’t see it or don’t want to. What could actually possess a heterosexual male to want to feminize himself and claim that he is a lesbian? Because ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    4 days ago
  • Trump: “Where’s my favourite dictator?”
    From the Wall Street Journal:Inside a room of the ornately decorated Hotel du Palais during last month’s Group of Seven summit in Biarritz, France, President Trump awaited a meeting with Egyptian President Abdel Fattah Al Sisi. Mr. Trump looked over a gathering of American and Egyptian officials and called out in ...
    5 days ago
  • Magdalen Burns, 1983-2019, fighter for women’s liberation
    by the Redline blog collective At Redline we are very saddened to hear of the death of Magdalen Burns who passed away on the morning of Friday, September 13 (British time). Magdalen was a great fighter for the rights of women in general and lesbian women in particular, a defender ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    5 days ago
  • Parliament and the Executive
    The Brexit issue has certainly brought with it a series of apparently difficult constitutional issues, many of them concerning the respective roles of the executive and parliament. Most of them arise because of the unwillingness of MPs, despite their professions to the contrary, to be bound by a constitutional rarity ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    6 days ago
  • The Abigail Article; Martyn Bradbury’s Article, and My Response
    . . This blogpost is different to my usual format of reporting on issues… Since July 1011, I have blogged on a variety of political issues; near always political and/or environmental; mostly highly critical of the previous National Government. Other issues included Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands and repression of ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    6 days ago
  • Police will have to wear silly Buckingham Palace hats from now on, says Police Minister
    Those close to the Police Minister believe the initiative may be the result of Nash “seeing a great deal” on AliExpress. In a move that comes seemingly out of nowhere, Police Minister Stuart Nash announced this afternoon that he expects all frontline staff to don bearskin hats, famously worn by ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    6 days ago
  • A sensible crackdown
    The government has released its Arms Legislation Bill, containing the second tranche of changes to gun laws following the March 15 massacre. And it all looks quite sensible: a national gun register, higher penalties for illegal possession and dealing, tighter restrictions on arms dealers and shooting clubs, and a shorter ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    7 days ago
  • California bans private prisons
    Private prisons are a stain on humanity. Prison operators explicitly profit from human misery, then lobby for longer prisons terms so they can keep on profiting. And in the US, prison companies run not only local and state prisons, but also Donald Trump's immigration concentration camps. Faced with this moral ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    7 days ago
  • Why PPPs are a bad idea
    When National was in power, they were very keen on Public-Private Partnerships (PPPs) - basicly, using private companies to finance public infrastructure as a way of hiding debt from the public. They were keen on using them for everything - roads, schools, hospitals. But as the UK shows, that "service" ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    7 days ago
  • A Movement That No Longer Moves.
    Moving And Shaking: There was a time when people spoke matter-of-factly about the “labour movement” – a political phenomenon understood to embrace much more than the Labour Party. Included within the term’s definition was the whole trade union movement – many of whose members looked upon the Labour Party as ...
    7 days ago
  • NZ ‘left’ politically embracing extreme postmodernism
    by Philip Ferguson Much of the left, even people who formally identify as marxists, have collapsed politically in the face of postmodern gender theory of the sort pioneered by American philosopher Judith Butler. For Butler even biological sex is socially constructed. “If the immutable character of sex is contested, perhaps ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • The obvious question
    The media is reporting that the (alleged) Labour party sexual assaulter has resigned from their job at Parliament, which means hopefully he won't be turning up there making people feel unsafe in future. Good. But as with everything about this scandal, it just raises other questions. Most significantly: why the ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • The moment I found out that you found out, I acted swiftly
    By Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern I am every bit as angry as you are. I am every bit as disappointed as you must be. The people with power, oversight and the ability to do something about these processes within the Labour Party should be ashamed. Whoever those people are, I ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • This is why people hate property developers
    Property developers think there is an "oversupply" of houses in Auckland:High turnover rates and falling prices may be a sign that there are too many new houses going in to some parts of Auckland, commentators say. [...] Property developer David Whitburn said there was a "bit of an oversupply" in ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Australia to Pacific: “Fuck you, you can all drown”
    World leaders are meeting in New York in two weeks for the 2019 Climate Action Summit, where they are expected to announce new and more ambitious targets to stop the world from burning. But the Australian Prime Minister won't be there, despite being in the USA at the time:Scott Morrison ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Implausible ignorance
    Labour Party president Nigel Haworth resigned yesterday over the party's sexual assault scandal. But while that's good news, its unlikely to take away the stench of a coverup. Because according to Paula Bennett in Parliament yesterday, pretty much everyone in the Prime Minister's office was involved as well:I have been ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Labour’s Fatal Flaw.
     Two-Faced? Labour insiders' commitment to the neoliberal status quo puts them at odds with their party’s membership; its trade union affiliates; and a majority of Labour voters, but this only serves to strengthen the perception they have of themselves as a special elite. Among the lesser breeds, they’ll talk up a ...
    1 week ago
  • Ten reasons the Tories do NOT want an election
    There has been a lot of talk about Boris Johnson wanting an election, and he has blustered with great gusto about 'chicken' Jeremy Corbyn refusing one, but I think there are many reasons why he is secretly glad he has been refused the opportunity:The Tories are an utter rabble,tearing themselves ...
    1 week ago
  • Prorogation Illegal, rule Scottish judges
    Scottish appeal court judges have declared that Boris Johnson’s decision to suspend parliament in the run-up to the October Brexit deadline is unlawful. The three judges, chaired by Lord Carloway, Scotland’s most senior judge, overturned an earlier ruling that the courts did not have the powers to interfere in the prime ...
    1 week ago
  • Let me explain what I meant by Everyday New Zealanders
    By Simon Bridges. The following is a press release from the office of Simon Bridges, leader of The National Party. Key ora, New Zealand. Happy Maori Language Week. Look, I’m writing to you today because I want to clear something up. There’s been a lot of kerfuffle around some things ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Yes, the SIS is subject to the Public Records Act
    I understand there's some stuff going round about how the SIS "was removed from the list of public offices covered by the Public Records Act in 2017". The context of course being their records derived from US torture, which will be disposed of or sealed. The good news is that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • An evidence-based discussion of the Canadian fluoride/IQ study
    Dr. Christopher Labos and Jonathan Jarry discuss the recent Canadian fluoride/IQ research. They provide an expert analysis of the paper and its problems. Click on image to go to podcast. The critical debate about the recent ...
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: Australia in denial
    Australia is burning down again, and meanwhile its natural disaster minister is denying climate change:Australia’s minister responsible for drought and natural disasters, David Littleproud, has said that he doesn’t “know if climate change is manmade”. Clarifying earlier comments that the question is “irrelevant” when considering the Coalition government’s response to ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Philippines activist speaking on the Duterte tyranny
    Auckland Philippines Solidarity is excited to host Professor Judy Taguiwalo for a speaking tour of NZ in September. She is a well-known activist in the Philippines and was a political prisoner under the Marcos dictatorship. Professor Taguiwalo briefly served as a Cabinet member under President Duterte but was forced from ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Disgust
    I have no special insights to offer on the Labour sexual assault coverup. All I have is disgust. Disgust that an organisation could fail its people so badly. Disgust that they punished the victims rather than the perpetrator. Disgust that its party hacks are apparently blaming the victims for demanding ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Speak Up for Women calls out Greens’ censorship
    This open letter to the Green Party was penned after an opinion piece by Jill Abigail, a feminist and founding member of the party, was censored by the Greens’ leadership. (Redline has reprinted her article here).The intolerance of the Green Party leaders and their acceptance of the misogyny of gender ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Member’s Day: End of Life Choice, part 3
    Today is a Member's day, and David Seymour's End of Life Choice Bill continues its slow crawl through its committee stage. They're spending the whole day on it today, though the first hour is likely to be spent on voting left over from last time. After that they'll move on ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Flight to Los Angeles turned back after passengers decide they don’t want to go anymore
    An ambitious plan to fly to Los Angeles petered out into a brief sight-seeing trip and a desire to return home and get some sleep before work tomorrow. Air New Zealand has confirmed a flight to Los Angeles last night was turned back about a quarter of the way into ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Indigenous Futures: defuturing and futuring – an analytical framework for policy development?
    There appears to be consensus – by omission – that the concept of indigenous futures should be accepted at face value. So I scavenged the internet to see if I could locate an academic descriptor or a framework around how we think about it as a concept, and whether it ...
    EllipsisterBy Ellipsister
    1 week ago
  • Cadbury rumoured to be releasing the Pineapple Trump
    Here’s another novelty chocolate to shove in your gob, New Zealand Cadbury could be seeking to make itself great again with a rumoured new release: Pineapple Trumps, a spin on its classic chocolate-encased pineapple treat and do-it-yourself tooth remover. The global confectionery manufacturer and bumbling “before” character in an infomercial, ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • The coming resource war.
    During my time in the Pentagon I had the privilege of sitting down with military leaders and defence and security officials from a variety of Latin American nations. Sometimes I was present as a subordinate assistant to a senior US defence department official, sometimes as part of a delegation that ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    1 week ago
  • Māori Language Week with The Civilian
    Kia ora, Aotearoa. It’s that magical time of year. Te Wiki o te Reo Māori. In English, the week that frightens talk radio. As you probably know by now, all your favourite media outlets are participating, some more successfully than others. Stuff has changed its name to Puna for the ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Will Horizons act on climate change?
    Local body elections are coming up next month. And it looks like all Palmerston North candidates for Horizons (the Manawatu-Whanganui Regional Council) want to take action on climate change:Climate change is set to be a key issue in Palmerston North for the next three years if those wanting to get ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • BORA reform is stalled
    Eighteen months ago, the government promised to strengthen the Bill of Rights Act, by explicitly affirming the power of the courts to issue declarations of inconsistency and requiring Parliament to formally respond to them. So how's that going? I was curious, so I asked for all advice about the proposal. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Corbyn and Brexit
    As the Brexit saga staggers on, the focus is naturally enough on the Prime Minister and his attempts to achieve Brexit “do or die”. But the role played by the Leader of the Opposition is of almost equal interest and complexity. The first problem for Jeremy Corbyn is that he ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    1 week ago
  • A ditch for him to die in
    Last week, English Prime Minister Boris Johnson boldly declared that he would rather die be dead in a ditch than delay Brexit. Unfortunately for him, the UK parliament accepted the challenge, and promptly dug one for him. The "rebellion bill" requires him to ask for and secure yet another temporary ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Warning! Warning! Danger Jacinda Ardern! Danger Marama Davidson! Warning!
    Lost In Political Space: The most important takeaway from this latest Labour sexual assault scandal, which (if I may paraphrase Nixon’s White House counsel’s, John Dean’s, infamous description of Watergate) is “growing like a cancer” on the premiership, is the Labour Party organisation’s extraordinary professional paralysis in the face of ...
    1 week ago
  • Union solidarity with Ihumatao land occupation
    by Daphna Whitmore Every Sunday for the past two months unionists from First Union, with supporters from other unions, have set out to the Ihumatao land protest, put up gazebos and gas barbeques, and cooked food for a few hundred locals and supporters who have come from across the country. ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: The wrong kind of trees?
    Newsroom today has an excellent, in-depth article on pine trees as carbon sinks. The TL;DR is that pine is really good at soaking up carbon, but people prefer far-less efficient native forests instead. Which is understandable, but there's two problems: firstly, we've pissed about so long on this problem that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • No freedom of speech in Turkey
    Canan Kaftancioglu is a Turkish politician and member of the opposition Republican People's Party (CHP). Like most modern politicians, she tweets, and uses the platform to criticise the Turkish government. She has criticised them over the death of a 14-year-old boy who was hit by a tear gas grenade during ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Speaker: Tadhg Stopford: Why I’m standing for the ADHB
    Hi there, just call me Tim.We face tough problems, and I’d like to help, because there are solutions.An Auckand District Health Board member has nominated me for as a candidate for the ADHB, because her MS-related pain and fatigue is reduced with hemp products from Rotorua.  Nothing else helped her. If I ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Good little vassals
    The Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security has published their report on whether the SIS and GCSB had any complicity in American torture. And its damning. The pull quote is this:The Inquiry found both agencies, but to a much greater degree, the NZSIS, received many intelligence reports obtained from detainees who, ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Who Shall We Turn To When God, And Uncle Sam, Cease To Defend New Zealand?
    Bewhiskered Cassandra? Professor Hugh White’s chilling suggestion, advanced to select collections of academic, military and diplomatic Kiwi experts over the course of the past week, is that the assumptions upon which Australia and New Zealand have built their foreign affairs and defence policies for practically their entire histories – are ...
    2 weeks ago
  • The Politics of Opposition
    For most of the time I was a British MP, my party was out of government – these were the Thatcher years, when it was hard for anyone else to get a look-in. As a front-bencher and shadow minister, I became familiar with the strategies required in a parliamentary democracy ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    2 weeks ago
  • More expert comments on the Canadian fluoride-IQ paper
    The Green et al (2019) fluoride/IQ is certainly controversial – as would be expected from its subject (see If at first you don’t succeed . . . statistical manipulation might help and Politics of science – making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear). Anti-fluoride campaigners have been actively promoting it ...
    2 weeks ago
  • The return to guerrilla war in Colombia
    by Gearóid Ó Loingsigh On August 29th a video in which veteran FARC (Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia) commander Iván Márquez announced that they had taken up arms again was released. There was no delay in the reaction to it, from longtime Liberal Party figure and former president Uribe, for ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago

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