London riots

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1. Tiger Mountain 1

   9 August 2011 at 9:26 am

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPcjkgYS-cU
   • Tiger Mountain 1.1

     9 August 2011 at 9:53 am

     Should have added this to link above, it is 60 second vid of the gone but not forgotten Clash-“London’s Burning”.
     • joe90 1.1.1

       9 August 2011 at 2:10 pm

       Bob Marley: Burnin’ and Lootin’ LA HAINE (‘The Hate’)

       This morning I woke up in a curfew;
       O God, I was a prisoner, too – yeah!
       Could not recognize the faces standing over me;
       They were all dressed in uniforms of brutality. Eh!

       How many rivers do we have to cross,
       Before we can talk to the boss? Eh!
       All that we got, it seems we have lost;
       We must have really paid the cost.

       (That’s why we gonna be)
       Burnin’ and a-lootin’ tonight;
       (Say we gonna burn and loot)
       Burnin’ and a-lootin’ tonight;
       (One more thing)
       Burnin’ all pollution tonight;
       (Oh, yeah, yeah)
       Burnin’ all illusion tonight.

       Oh, stop them!

       Give me the food and let me grow;
       Let the Roots Man take a blow.
       All them drugs gonna make you slow now;
       It’s not the music of the ghetto. Eh!

       Weeping and a-wailin’ tonight;
       (Who can stop the tears?)
       Weeping and a-wailin’ tonight;
       (We’ve been suffering these long, long-a years!)
       Weeping and a-wailin’ tonight
       (Will you say cheer?)
       Weeping and a-wailin’ tonight
       (But where?)

       Give me the food and let me grow;
       Let the Roots Man take a blow.
       I must say: all them – all them drugs gonna make you slow;
       It’s not the music of the ghetto.

       We gonna be burning and a-looting tonight;
       (To survive, yeah!)
       Burning and a-looting tonight;
       (Save your baby lives)
       Burning all pollution tonight;
       (Pollution, yeah, yeah!)
       Burning all illusion tonight
       (Lord-a, Lord-a, Lord-a, Lord!)

       Burning and a-looting tonight;
       Burning and a-looting tonight;
       Burning all pollution tonight.
       • Ianupnorth 1.1.1.1

         9 August 2011 at 2:19 pm

         White Riot – Strummer and Jones

          
         White riot – I wanna riot
         White riot – a riot of my own
         White riot – I wanna riot
         White riot – a riot of my own

         Black people gotta lot a problems
         But they don’t mind throwing a brick
         White people go to school
         Where they teach you how to be thick

         An’ everybody’s doing
         Just what they’re told to
         An’ nobody wants
         To go to jail!

         White riot – I wanna riot
         White riot – a riot of my own
         White riot – I wanna riot
         White riot – a riot of my own

         All the power’s in the hands
         Of people rich enough to buy it
         While we walk the street
         Too chicken to even try it

         Everybody’s doing
         Just what they’re told to
         Nobody wants
         To go to jail!

         White riot – I wanna riot
         White riot – a riot of my own
         White riot – I wanna riot
         White riot – a riot of my own

         Are you taking over
         or are you taking orders?
         Are you going backwards
         Or are you going forwards?

         30 years old and still pertinent!

         Or, Armagideon Time

         stay around don’t play around
         this old town and all
         seems like i got to travel on

         a lot of people won’t get no supper tonight
         a lot of people won’t get no justice tonight
         the battle is gettin hotter
         in this iration, armagideon time

         a lot of people runnin and a hiding tonight
         a lot of people won’t get no justice tonight
         remember to kick it over
         no one will guide you – armagideon time

         and….

         Who needs remote control
         From the Civic Hall
         Push a button
         Activate
         You gotta work an’ you’re late

         It’s so grey in London town
         With a panda car crawling around
         Here it comes
         Eleven o’clock
         Where can we go now?

         Can’t make a noise
         Can’t get no gear
         Can’t make no money
         Can’t get outta here

         Big business it don’t like you
         It don’t like the things you do
         You got no money
         So you got no power
         They think you’re useless
         An’ so you are – puuuuuuunnnnnk!

         They had a meeting in Mayfair
         They got you down an’
         They wanna keep you there
         It makes them worried
         Their bank accounts
         That’s all that matters
         And you don’t count

         Can’t make no progress
         Can’t get ahead
         Can’t stop the regress
         Don’t wanna be dead

         Look out’ those rules and regulations

         Who needs the Parliament
         Sitting making laws all day
         They’re all fat and old
         Queuing for the House of Lords

         Repression – gonna start on Tuesday
         Repression – gonna be a Dalek
         Repression – I am a robot
         Repression – I obey
2. Herodotus 2

   9 August 2011 at 9:32 am

   There is comment regarding the riots being fueled by a 17 yr old girl being battoned by a police officer at the march so don’t take for truth all you hear regarding the riots
   • freedom 2.1

     9 August 2011 at 10:07 am

     what are you trying to say Herodotus?

     A march to voice concerncs about a Police shooting, which is now in serious dispute as to its legality, was disrupted by over-zealous Police who once again used violence to provoke a situation that was not violent. The inevitable occured and now is spreading like windswept embers through a parched forest.

     I have a good friend who lives in the area where the riots began and they are very clear as to who purposefully provoked the event to escalate into violence. It was not those marching asking for justice.

     What is now occurring is more to do with dissaffected people in a society that has thrown them into the bin and does not want to deal with the fermenting waste it has produced.
     • Bob 2.1.1

       9 August 2011 at 11:13 am

       Remember Blair Peach , another victim of an overzealous bunch of thugs .. AKA the Metropolitan Police Special Patrol Group..
       The Metropolitan Police reports into the death of Blair Peach were finally released to the public April last year .
     • Tombstone 2.1.2

       9 August 2011 at 12:14 pm

       You’re bang on the mark with that and I have said a number of times that the next great war will be one waged by the common people who are no longer willing to allow the rich and powerful to suck up all the wealth for themselves whilst leaving everyone else to pick up the tab when things go wrong. This I fear is the beginning of that war but it’s a war that I believe was a long time coming. You can only push people so far before they break. If you have nothing left then you have nothing to lose. That’s how it is for millions around the world, while the elite continue to live lives of opulence beyond our wildest imaginings we are all being asked to tighten our belts while being forced to watch our jobs being farmed out to foreign countries where large global corporations continue to exploit slave wage economies. It’s obscene. What is now unfolding in London doesn’t surprise me in the least to be quite honest.
       • Ianupnorth 2.1.2.1

         9 August 2011 at 2:20 pm

         lest we forget Blair peach was a Kiwi too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blair_Peach
3. The Voice of Reason 3

   9 August 2011 at 9:55 am

   The interesting thing for me is the copy cat aspect of the second and third day’s looting. While there may have been some reason for the initial riot, what has happened since is the use of technology to organise secondary events which have no political or social significance beyond the fun of getting a new telly for free. The London coppers have left a moral vacuum after the disgrace of their involvement in the phone hacking scandal and have little ability to do anything about what is happening. Of course, the real victims of this mindless and selfish criminality are the poor of the suburbs being attacked, who are left homeless and the small business owners who have lost both home and work.

   The death of the gangster that prompted the original ruck certainly needs investigating, but I won’t be shedding any tears for him. Live by the gun, die by the gun.
   • Vicky32 3.1

     9 August 2011 at 5:17 pm

     Of course, the real victims of this mindless and selfish criminality are the poor of the suburbs being attacked, who are left homeless and the small business owners who have lost both home and work.

     Sadly, that’s true, although I can’t and don’t agree with your final paragraph. From what we know, there’s no evidence that he “lived by the gun”…
     • higherstandard 3.1.1

       9 August 2011 at 5:22 pm

       http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/mark-duggan-profile-tottenham-shooting
4. Bill 4

   9 August 2011 at 10:04 am

   A couple of points.

   England has always been prone to riots…

   , No more so than other countries. And for a variety of reasons. (Poll Tax, Miners strike, aggressive and racist policing….) The current riots in London are because of the police. If you ever lived there you will know that they are generally regarded (for bloody good reason) as bad bastards and that from time to time things blow up in their faces.

   As austerity measures cut in all over Europe such riots will almost certainly become more common and more widespread.

   An obvious characteristic of public resistance to governments complicity with the banking/financial centers is that they are by and large peaceful. The media tends to pick up on incidences of violence or report on the violence occuring in states designated as ‘official enemies’ (eg Libya, Syria) while ignoring events in ‘friendly’ states (Bahrain, Egypt) and under report persistant but peaceful movements (eg Spain, Israel).

   And while we would be led to believe that the media portrayal of events in one country are synonymous with events in others or precursors of what will unfold in others, it’s just not the way it is.

   For example, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. A question mark hangs over the nature of the unrest in Lybia (nowhere else was a ‘Transitional Council’ up and running within days of unrest. And nowhere else was a group of internationally connected politicians etc claiming to speak for the people). So while a nascent movenment may have stirred on the streets of Lybia, it was pretty quickly hi-jacked by a coterie of business men, military types and politicians who sought and are seeking ascendancy within the current state apparatus. This is a marked departure from what appears to be happening elsewhere.

   And in London there appears to be neither a movement nor a bid for power by ‘would be’ elites. As one rioter, Jamal, told Channel 4 News in the UK : ‘We’re here to tell the police they can’t abuse us, harass us. We won’t put up with it. This is just the beginning, this is war, and this is what you get – fire.’

   So anyway. Events in Lybia, London and Egypt, just to pick three examples, are on different trajectories and are not unfolding for the same reasons in all three instances. As events unfold in different countries, it’s inevitable that the media will seek to have us believe that Lybian or Syrian scenarios are an inevitability. And if people are brought to believe that by standing up and stepping forward bloody confrontations will eventuate, then people will step back and sit down.

   So please, a little care and discretion before rushing to lump disparate happenings together.
5. heathrow hotels 5

   9 August 2011 at 10:26 am

   These riots are disgusting, are they just going to stand back and allow this to happen? Why do we have an army, and why don’t they sort it out?
   • Colonial Viper 5.1

     9 August 2011 at 11:13 am

     You are under the misapprehension that the authorities and the elite have the power to control this the way they wish.
     • McFlock 5.1.1

       9 August 2011 at 12:07 pm

       and that they particularly care one way or the other.
          

       lawlessness =
       “give the police more powers and equipment” =
       everything from ASBOs to antiterror detention to “it may harm your defense if you not mention something now that you later rely on in court” can be used as punishment for “contempt of cop, AKA you have a funny face and/or fashion sense” with little or no judicial interference (in the few cases where judicial complicity doesn’t exist).
       • Ianupnorth 5.1.1.1

         9 August 2011 at 12:52 pm

         I remember doing a criminology paper and how the lecturer, an ex-cop, basically told us policing was out of control many years ago, largely due to the funding and technicalisation of police work; once upon a time the police had two feet and a whistle; the crooks got cars, so the cops had to have better cars; when the crooks got faster cars the cops got helicopters – very expensive and did not bring the same return on investment – crime still went up, but forces competed to see who could have the biggest and best fleet of helicopters, Range Rovers, Jags, BMW’s, etc.
         Rather than serving their community they saw themselves as controllers of their communities.
       • McFlock 5.1.1.2

         9 August 2011 at 5:52 pm

         I’m actually a bit of a cop supporter myself – I think every society needs the equivalent. 
           

         From my perspective the difficulty is that the technology gets in the way of actual policing:
         the car separates the officer from the community,

         the gps tag means they can’t have a cup of tea and a chat with the local dairy owner without good reason for some micro-managing superior,

         GIS and computer stats get imposed as performance indicators rather than analysis assistants  (I saw a good example in the street a few years back – a 2-officer police car pulled a vehicle over for red light infringement. One officer wrote the ticket while the other stopped every car that came past and checked their driver’s licence, with a little tally sheet in his hand. Obviously the regional or even shift-level traffic activities were down, probably because they’d been busy catching burglars), 

         “less lethal” zap guns and sprays mean the officer doesn’t have to try to understand a distressed/disturbed person, firearms escalate the situation by their very presence,
         and so on.
            

           
   • lprent 5.2

     9 August 2011 at 1:50 pm

     Because armies are only used as a last resort in riot situations. They aren’t trained for suppressing a situation, they are trained to kill people and are losuy in almost every urban control situation unless people are shooting.

     Incidentally every soldier (with any brains) in every army dislikes armchair warrior wankers like yourself. It is so seldom that we see wee jerkoffs like yourself actually doing the work of cleaning up the bodies and dealing with the downstream costs. Instead your type of pathetic little dipshit just struts around with weapon fetish substituting for your balls.
   • freedom 5.3

     9 August 2011 at 2:52 pm

     No, HH, grow a reality gland.

     starving billions of people from a deecent life to promote the theft of natural resources to give wealth and power to a microscopic volume of people, that is disgusting
6. Afewknowthetruth 6

   9 August 2011 at 10:28 am

   It is well to remember that these riots are occuring during the ‘good times’, i.e. when oil is still cheap, food is still cheap and easy to come by in western nations, and there is still quite a lot of employment within the industrial economy.

   And as the economic system slowly implodes we will see a transition from opportunistic stealing of electrical goods to opportunistic stealing of food.

   The other elephant in the room ‘no one’ wants to talk about is gross population overshoot, of course: 10 million people living on a land area that will sustainably support maybe 100,000 is not a recipe for future social stability.

   It will be when the rioters decide to target wealthier districts we will start to see bloodbaths. Presumably the police will be charged with maintaining the wealth gap.
   • Lanthanide 6.1

     9 August 2011 at 11:03 am

     “The other elephant in the room ‘no one’ wants to talk about is gross population overshoot, of course: 10 million people living on a land area that will sustainably support maybe 100,000 is not a recipe for future social stability.”

     Cities are always unsustainable if you tried to have everyone living there work the land. The whole point of cities is that they allow more efficient use of resources.

     As the cost of transporting goods into cities goes up with the price of oil, the efficiency gain of the city may start to be outweighed by the cost of transport. But when you consider other parts of modern infrastructure such as telecommunications and electrical grids which people are still going to demand (and cost significantly more to roll out on lightly populated areas), I really don’t see cities vanishing as entirely as you think they should.
     • Colonial Viper 6.1.1

       9 August 2011 at 11:15 am

       Cities are always unsustainable if you tried to have everyone living there work the land. The whole point of cities is that they allow more efficient use of resources.

       Only in a very very theoretical sense. Because as the efficiency of resource use goes up, the gross magnitude of resource use rockets up.

       btw there are no jobs in provincial areas. No one is moving anywhere.
7. Gosman 7

   9 August 2011 at 10:29 am

   There is already a capital gains tax as well as a top rate of 50 pence in the pound on incomes over 150,000 pounds in the UK. On top of this they have a number of VAT exemptions and lower rates for various goods.

   These are all very similar to policies that the NZ Labour party is currently advocating as being central to their next election campaign. Yet for some reason there are riots there because of alienation but not here.

   It’s a funny world, ain’t it, where countries with more left wing economic policies have greater alienation of the under classes?
   • Ianupnorth 7.1

     9 August 2011 at 10:34 am

     Go away Troll – they have a Tory government that has slashed jobs, public spending and treated specific groups like crap – you are talking out of your arse again! VAT is 17.5% and few things are exempt; they also pay NI – national insurance towards their super and sick pay. These riots are a result of YEARS of under investment in people.

     Try living in those areas – I have – it isn’t easy even when you have a job
     • Gosman 7.1.1

       9 August 2011 at 10:37 am

       Ummmmm… you haven’t adressed any of the points I made.

       Doesn’t the UK have a Capital Gains tax, a high tax rate for top earners, and exemptions of Sales tax for many goods deemed “politically correct” and aren’t these the key policy planks for the NZ Labour Party?
       • Ianupnorth 7.1.1.1

         9 August 2011 at 10:44 am

         So what, they are not the cause of the riots are they? Even with their taxation they cannot fund an obese, under skilled and demanding populus can they? You are comparing apples with pears mate; they have nearly 70 million population, including hundreds of thousands of immigrants on benefits and receiving state housing. They have an aging population, they have lots of people with complex health needs, they have a massive infrastructure, largely built in the Victorian era, all of which is starting to collapse and is difficult to repair due to the geographical constraints of their cities. They (unfortunately) are also the second biggest force in Iraq and Afghanistan – which again doesn’t come cheap.
         You are alone in thinking CGT isn’t a good idea – you, as a Tory, should acknowledge you need to invest to achieve a positive gain. CGT is being suggested as a means of funding future investment.
         • Gosman 7.1.1.1.1

           9 August 2011 at 10:49 am

           Whatever makes you think that Iam against the concept of a CGT?

           I’m still waiting to see what you would suggest is the solution given the fact that the British have largely followed policy prescriptions over the past 10 years plus which the NZ Labour Party is now advocating.
           • Lanthanide 7.1.1.1.1.1

             9 August 2011 at 11:09 am

             “I’m still waiting to see what you would suggest is the solution given the fact that the British have largely followed policy prescriptions over the past 10 years plus which the NZ Labour Party is now advocating.”

             You seem to be implying that because they are having trouble in the UK, we shouldn’t apply policies here?

             You do realise they’re a different country, right? With a significantly different culture, right? In a different part of the world, right?

             You seem to be suggesting that when Labour implemented policies in the UK, suddenly all their history and culture was brushed aside and is completely irrelevant to social outcomes. Bizarre.
             • freedom …

               9 August 2011 at 11:29 am

               Lanthanide, it is just simpler to ignore him. Poke occassionally for fun but ultimately a troll is a troll is a troll and in the couple of years i have been reading The Standard i have yet to see anything productive or constructive from Gosman. Plenty of bru-ha-ha and bashing of benes but bugger all banter against the bankers.

               Gosman’s reality is whatever the Herald/the Guardian/the Washington Post etc says it is. Remember in his Universe that the world is and always has been a perfect balanced utopia where all have the same opportunities and it is only the lazy bludgers that fail. No hard working person ever got left behind in the world of Gosman.

               It has been repeatedly shown any number of times in Gosman’s posts that nothing will disrupt the dissemination of truth, especially the truth.
               • Ianupnorth …

                 9 August 2011 at 12:48 pm

                 Suggest you replace The Guardian with the Daily mail, Times or telegraph. The Guardian are to the left and are the ones nailing the Murdochs and NOTW
                 • freedom …

                   9 August 2011 at 1:25 pm

                   All Newspapers are all the same these days and to convince oneself otherwise is not healthy.. None are any more left or right than another when it comes to actually being honest with their readers. The Guardian tows the elitist line and is as guilty as any other member of the ‘free press’.

                   The occassional ‘we wouldn’t bug phones’ distraction piece or mentioning a book by a critic of the Empire does not make the Guardian a bastion of free speech and champion of the common man. They get their orders and follow them like all the other lapdogs laying prone at the Banker’s feet.
                 • AAMC …

                   9 August 2011 at 9:46 pm

                   Although this from the Telegraph seemed to hit the nail on the head.

                   http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8630533/Riots-the-underclass-lashes-out.html
                   • freedom …

                     10 August 2011 at 4:45 pm

                     On the first read it appears almost balanced. Then her phrasing starts to consolidate itself and she ultimately throws blame squarely at the feet of the rioters ignoring the substance of the issues with nary a syllable of disdain for her masters.

                     “..if there are no jobs for today’s malcontents and no means to exploit their skills…” just the focus of her vocabulary chills the spine. ‘exploit’ instead of employ, ‘malcontents’ instead of youth.

                     And the big one for game point. “The Tottenham summer …is an assault not on a regime of tyranny but on the established order of a benign democracy.” If benign is what passes for describing Democracy today then we are really up the creek without paddles or lifejackets or a canoe.
       • rosy 7.1.1.2

         9 August 2011 at 5:14 pm

         They also have 20 percent youth unemployment and I suspect that it will be worse in deprived areas and

         A quarter of those from deprived backgrounds believed they would achieve few or none of their life goals, with a similar proportion expecting to end up on benefits for at least part of their life.

         Inner London is also deeply divided with the highest proportion of people on low incomes as well as the highest proportion of people on high incomes. People with no jobs and no income are living within a financial centre where people taking home multi-million pound bonuses.

         I really don’t think young rioters in the inner city are sitting at home saying a CGT should have fixed this, nor do I think it will be the answer to NZs inequality, but it will go some way towards improving it given our reliance on housing for wealth creation. Do you know if the top tax earners pay their 50% rate? Take a look at the UKuncut site sometime.

         How about a reverse question… National has the same policies as the Conservaties – incentivising the top earners to encourage growth *cough* and reducing public services to hold down the deficit. What sort of outcome do you think these will have on the poorest groups in NZ? Especially when criminality is used by the poor to increase their ‘take-home’ pay and policing may become more robust (for want of a better word).
         • Gosman 7.1.1.2.1

           9 August 2011 at 5:46 pm

           The Conservatives have been in power a little more than a year. It is hard to place the blame on them for the conditions that may, or may not, have led to these riot’s.

           Please tell me why the massive increase in social spending under UK Labour between 2001 and 2008 doesn’t seem to have made a blind bit of difference to all this social dislocation?
           • rosy 7.1.1.2.1.1

             9 August 2011 at 9:27 pm

             Have you paid any attention at all to the severity of the cuts and the fast increase in unemployment? ‘New’ Labour certainly didn’t do enough to improve the lot of poor black youth, but there was some progress in ensuring communication and agreement on police operations in these areas. There was some progress in improving facilities and education. This has all gone by the wayside and these riots have happened in exactly the same circumstances as the 1980s riots.
       • mik e 7.1.1.3

         10 August 2011 at 8:03 pm

         They’ve had to bail out ponzi scheming banks and print money to get these fraudulent banksters back into lending,pay to invade Irag and afganistan, bombing of libya bailing out Ireland Iceland poatugal and greece. Gooseman no one believes your propaganda BS.
     • Gosman 7.1.2

       9 August 2011 at 10:40 am

       So are you claiming that the last Labour Government in the UK didn’t massively increase social spending over the last seven or eight years it was in power?

       By the way where is all this money meant to come from for this ‘investment’ when they already plonked on a top rate of 50 percent on top earners?
       • The Voice of Reason 7.1.2.1

         9 August 2011 at 10:46 am

         Er, Gooseman, I thought the major problem with the NewLabour ‘third way’ was that it didn’t massively increase social spending and instead chose the more Murdoch compliant neo liberal solutions that have helped stuff every country that have tried them, NZ included.
         • Gosman 7.1.2.1.1

           9 August 2011 at 10:54 am

           From 1997 to 2001 you would be right. However from 2001 onwards the Labour Government started to increase social spending massively. Hence why they had a rather large budgetary hole when they left office last year.
         • Gosman 7.1.2.1.2

           9 August 2011 at 4:38 pm

           Read this link and tell me why this isn’t evidence of a massive increase in social spending under Labour in the UK

           http://www.economicshelp.org/macroeconomics/fiscal-policy/government-spending.html
       • Ianupnorth 7.1.2.2

         9 August 2011 at 10:46 am

         Check the tax rates during their first few years – they REDUCED taxes you muppet!
         Remember a fair bit of social spending was following EU protocols too.
         • Gosman 7.1.2.2.1

           9 August 2011 at 10:51 am

           I lved in the UK in the early 2000’s. After the election in 2001 and again in 2005 the Labour Party started to massively increase spending in key areas of social services. I am sure you can find the statistics if you bothered to look for them.
           • millsy 7.1.2.2.1.1

             9 August 2011 at 11:29 am

             Actually Gosman, the Blair-Brown Labour Government threw millions of pounds at the private sector in the hope that they would build a school or hospital or two. Blair (who completely destroyed the Labour Party and turned it into the Conservative-lite Party) planned to use the private sector to deliver things like education, the NHS, welfare, etc. Millions were wasted as the private sector clipped the ticket, and services went downhill. Now Cameron and Clegg are finishing off where Blair started.

             So youre half right.
             • Ianupnorth …

               9 August 2011 at 12:41 pm

               And Mr. Troll – find me your mythical 50% on here http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20090909205015/http://hmrc.gov.uk/rates/it.htm
                
               Remember the first 5000+ is all tax free – like Labour are proposing here – far fairer!
               • freedom …

                 9 August 2011 at 1:38 pm

                 Ian the figure is far higher than that

                 “This tax year (2011-12) the basic Personal Allowance – or tax-free amount – is £7,475”
                 http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/incometax/basics.htm

                 that is $14,989.96 NZD, almost three times the pittance we are being offered. I have personally been asking for a $10,000 allowance for years and everyone i speak to says it is a good practical figure. Everyone except politicians and bankers that is.

                 The first $10,000 of anybody’s income goes towards living costs and that generally is in their local economy. I hope the allowance is introduced but regardless of how good the spin is, a $5,000 NZD allowance is still a bit of an insult to the lower wage workers it is designed to help. Especially when you consider that those on the same low wage income in the land of our Queen get three times that much.
                 • Ianupnorth …

                   9 August 2011 at 2:26 pm

                   They were the old figures as Gossy said the tax rates were 50% – they were when Blair came in in 1998, but he soon reduced them to 38p in the pound.
                   • Gosman …

                     9 August 2011 at 2:47 pm

                     You have heard or read of the top rate of 50 pence in the pound over 150,000 income haven’t you?

                     http://www.thetaxteam.co.uk/news/
                   • freedom …

                     9 August 2011 at 3:46 pm

                     1998 the basic allowance was 4,195 British Pounds, which at the time makes an equivalent NZD $11,934 with change and that over a decade ago.

                     $5,000 in 2011 is pathetic for an allowance we should have had decades ago. It is almost like Government doesn’t want people to live relatively comfortable productive family-time orientated lives. This is NZ after all. We have far too many ways to relax and enjoy life, given the opportunity that is. We must be held against the rail as the favourite sweeps by on the outside line.

                     Imagine a decade ago if most NZ workers had an extra eleven thousand dollars. Might have been good for property, might have been bad for property. A few more TV’s probably. The new car trade for middle NZ and the holiday package for the top dogs all would have gotten a shot in the arm.

                     What it would have been fundamentally healthy for though is rural NZ and the thousands of small business owners who closed their doors because of growing pressure on the lower wage population that dominated their community. The bookshops and the sandwich shop. The local tailor. The furniture restorer and the trader’s post. The herb lady and the guy at the Hardware store who kept it all running. All replaced with big brand junk that the small shop could never compete in price with. $11,000 in everyone’s pocket a decade ago would have saved a lot of NZ businesses.
                     $5,000 in everyone’s pocket today is hardly going to keep the power on.
           • Ianupnorth 7.1.2.2.1.2

             9 August 2011 at 3:03 pm

             here’s another clue Gosman as to why tax monies were needed….
             http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Terror
             As you have said before taxes started to increase in 2001 – coincidence?
              
             4.5.billion quid by 2006 just for Iraq, Afghanistan probably double that.
             • Gosman …

               9 August 2011 at 4:28 pm

               Never let it be stated that leftists put facts before a theory.

               Check out the following link:

               http://www.economicshelp.org/macroeconomics/fiscal-policy/government-spending.html

               What is noticable in terms of differences between 2001 and 2008 that you see?

               I will give you a clue it isn’t Defence spending.
               • mik e …

                 10 August 2011 at 8:05 pm

                 ITS probably bank bail out money
     • Andrew Scobie 7.1.3

       9 August 2011 at 10:46 am

       “VAT is 17.5% and few things are exempt”

       VAT was increased to 20% in January. There are loads of exemptions. Food in general is exempt, unless you are dining in, in which case you get charged VAT.

       http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/forms-rates/rates/goods-services.htm
       • Gosman 7.1.3.1

         9 August 2011 at 10:57 am

         As you point out to our leftist friends, the UK has even bigger exemptions on a sales tax than the one proposed by NZ Labour. Yet those poor benighted underclasses are still not happy. Go figure eh?
         • Colonial Viper 7.1.3.1.1

           9 August 2011 at 11:09 am

           can’t expect the underclasses to be happy when the banksters who caused the mess are back to million quid bonuses and government declares that it is the masses of people who should pay for the problem.
           • Gosman 7.1.3.1.1.1

             9 August 2011 at 11:20 am

             Million quid bonuses which are then taxed at 50 percent. I presume you are happy with this as it goes into the Government coffers or do you want to go to a command style economy where the State sets what is a ‘fair’ wage?
             • freedom …

               9 August 2011 at 11:36 am

               bonuses for what, doing their job of destroying any opportunities for a stable economy. Developing unbelievably stupid systems of financing so abysmally corrupt that the world is on the verge of major civil disasters that will allow the institution of a martial Law Oligachy controlled by those very same bankers.

               yeah i guess that’s worth a few million in bonuses.

               pity your grandkids are going to get rifle butts in the face as they queue for bread
             • Ianupnorth …

               9 August 2011 at 2:38 pm

               Show me the link to the 50% please, I am still waiting! (I’ve found you proof they were lower) – it did not come in until the last year of the labour government!

               Alistair Darling announced in the 2009 budget (22 April 2009) that, from April 2010 there would be a new 50% income tax rate for those earning more than £150,000.

               BTW – the things that are exempt from VAT should be the same here for GST, namely education, health and essential items such as heating, lighting and public services like rates – why should you be taxed on a tax?
               Funny how UK taxation mirrored the EU, funny how it went up from 1997 until 2001 when it started to decrease…http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.K.-Tax-Revenues-As-GDP-Percentage-%2875-05%29.jpg
                
               • Gosman …

                 9 August 2011 at 2:48 pm

                 http://www.thetaxteam.co.uk/news/

                 There you go. It’s at the bottom. Hope you don’t have too much trouble comprehending it.
                 • Ianupnorth …

                   9 August 2011 at 2:55 pm

                   2009 mate – just before the Tories took over!!
                   See above!!
                   • Gosman …

                     9 August 2011 at 3:05 pm

                     Ummmmmm…. I think you will find, if you bother to read up about the subject, that the Conservative/Liberal Democrat coalition Government in the UK has left in place this 50 pence in the pound limit.

                     I don’t know sometimes about the intelligence of some of you lefties. You provide me with a link that shows that a 50 pence in the pound limit was imposed in 2010 and yet you somehow think it isn’t in effect. Weird.
                   • Ianupnorth …

                     9 August 2011 at 3:45 pm

                     No you tit! You said that labour had increased taxes – they cut them in 1997 when they came in as well as increasing the personal tax allowance (what you get untaxed) to 5000 quid, then it was 10p from 5001 to about 10000 – I can’t remember the exact figures, but I was living there, so know!
                     Yes they increased taxes following 2001 – once engaged in a war in Afghanistan – Tornado’s and C130’s cost a lot to fuel, as do munitions and death grants.

                     You said they brought in a 50p in the pound rate – yes in 2009, just before the Tories took over.

                     You fail to see ANY correlation between their plight and the increased spending – e.g. the several billion spent on a war, the several billion spent having to nationalise banks, the several billions spent on immigrants, legal or otherwise.

                     Your arguments are like Swiss cheese – full of holes; you continue to compare the UK to here – there is simply no comparison – can’t you dumb tories actually understand that?
                   • Gosman …

                     9 August 2011 at 4:33 pm

                     Ummmmm…. no I didn’t claim that at all. Where is the evidence that I stated that Labour only ever raised tax rates?

                     I did state the the UK currently has in place policies which form a key policy plank of the NZ Labour party. In fact they go beyond what Labour is putting forward. This includes a top rate of Tax of 50 percent.

                     All I have seen in response is leftists trying to argue against me my producing links which support my whole point.

                     Some of you guy’s are truly intellectually warped.
                   • Ianupnorth …

                     9 August 2011 at 5:29 pm

                     I’ll save my breath, clearly wasted on the likes of you!
                   • Gosman …

                     9 August 2011 at 5:48 pm

                     Clearly wasted on me because I pointed out what a plank you were for supporting my point about the top rate of tax being set at 50 percent???

                     As I stated, truly, truly weird thinking on your part.
   • Lanthanide 7.2

     9 August 2011 at 11:06 am

     1. The UK is a heavily class-based and regimented society.
     2. The gap between the poorest and richest in the UK is significantly greater than it is here. London is one of the financial centres of the world, you know.
     • Gosman 7.2.1

       9 August 2011 at 12:02 pm

       Have you worked in the City recently at all? I’d suggest not judging by your last comments.
       • Lanthanide 7.2.1.1

         9 August 2011 at 1:31 pm

         No, I haven’t worked in The City, ever.

         But if you’re trying to suggest that it isn’t a financial centre of the world and that some bankers there aren’t (still) making mega bucks, you haven’t done a very convincing job.
         • freedom 7.2.1.1.1

           9 August 2011 at 1:45 pm

           Gosman,
           The City of London, the real one,
           is the home to the core Central Banking Institutions of the planet .

           What is your planet’s address.
           Are you sure you have the correct dimension code? Because there are times i swear you are yelling through the Twilight Zone
           • Gosman 7.2.1.1.1.1

             9 August 2011 at 3:02 pm

             I was responding to Lanthanide claims that the UK is a “heavily class-based and regimented society”. If you ever work in the actual area which most of you are decrying here with such leftist fervor, finance in The City you will notice that it is highly merit based. I worked with English guys who came from working class as well as upper middle class alongside Indians, Americans, Antipodeans, Africans and of course other Europeans.
             • freedom …

               9 August 2011 at 6:31 pm

               So what? None of your words above deny the existence of either class based or regimented social norms. People have come and gone through the classes since Thug Cringle first paid a flint to Mungo Limm to carry his share of the kill. The class system is as strong if not as obvious, as it has ever been and as for being regimented, they still have a House of Lords for Jiminy’s sake and i bet you didn’t meet too many White’s members at the local pub either.
             • Puddleglum …

               9 August 2011 at 9:24 pm

               Gosman, I’d be interested to hear your theory of why increased government spending on health, education and welfare leads to riots – which was the import of your ‘funny world’ comment @7.

               My own view is that ‘alienation‘ goes well beyond money in the pocket – though the availability of jobs tends to keep the lid on the increasing alienation. Alienation is primarily a sense that one is marginalised or excluded from pivotal processes of control, decision making and power. For a Marxist, it involves alienation from work (e.g., through division of labour), the products of work and from much of the physical world via the notion of ‘private property’.

               For others it also involves a distancing from direct relationship with others and, at the psychological level, from oneself. In fact, most psychological disorders demonstrate some form of dissociation of various psychological functions from each other. In effect, the ‘centre will not hold’ in the totality of the person.

               Supporting the idea of these latter forms of alienation are the well-documented increasing rates of depression and anxiety disorders (e.g., linked with increasing ‘external locus of control’ feelings over the past 80 years – at least).

               This has been happening apace over the past several decades since neoliberal policies became the elite’s choice of economic prescription, but they appear to be processes that are part and parcel of modern life in an industrialised (or ‘post-industrial’, as some prefer to call the latest variant) world.

               If you really want to understand the mind-set of British youth and – increasingly – working class adults, you might want to listen to the lyrics to Pulp’s ‘Common People’ song. There’s a refrain that goes:

               “You’ll never live like common people,
               you’ll never do what common people do,
               you’ll never fail like common people,
               you’ll never watch your life slide out of view,
               and dance and drink and screw,
               because there’s nothing else to do.” 

               Put yourself in that powerless mindset and you’ll understand what alienation is, and you’ll understand a good part of what has led to the tinder-dry social setting that periodically erupts in this way.

               And, no, we don’t have riots here – just a massive binge-drinking culture. Read those lyrics again: We’re well on our way. 
               • Puddleglum …

                 9 August 2011 at 9:31 pm

                 Here’s the lyrics to an ‘extra’ verse, if you’re actually interested in understanding. Same point, really:

                 “Like a dog lying in a corner,
                 they’ll bite you and never warn you.
                 Look out.
                 They’ll tear your insides out.
                 ‘Cause Everybody hates a tourist,
                 especially one who thinks
                 it’s all such a laugh.
                 Yeah, and the chip stains’ grease
                 will come out in the bath.
                 You will never understand
                 how it feels to live your life
                 with no meaning or control
                 and with nowhere left to go.
                 You’re amazed that they exist
                 and they burn so bright,
                 while you can only wonder why.” 
               • rosy …

                 9 August 2011 at 9:43 pm

                 Puddlegum, I love that I can rely on you write what I want to say when social exclusion topics come up and do it so much more coherently than me. Thanks.
                 • Puddleglum …

                   9 August 2011 at 10:22 pm

                   Thanks rosy, very much appreciated.

                   It’s a topic that, for me, cuts very close to the bone. 
                   • rosy …

                     9 August 2011 at 10:33 pm

                     It’s a topic that, for me, cuts very close to the bone
                     For me too.
               • Colonial Viper …

                 9 August 2011 at 9:53 pm

                 part and parcel of modern life in an industrialised (or ‘post-industrial’, as some prefer to call the latest variant) world.

                 de-industrialising world is next up.

                 As resource and energy constraints, quite apart from financial constraints, make it untenable to maintain that complex networks of technology, logistics and other systems that we take for granted today.

                 Then there’s gonna be some serious unrest.

                 Suicide, self harm and child abuse and neglect are massive further symptoms of alienation in NZ.
               • Gosman …

                 10 August 2011 at 7:47 am

                 What a load of bollox. I especially laughed at your Marxist psycho babble nonsense.

                 Please tell me how exactly people are powerless in Western Democracies?

                 What area of their life do they lack power over beyond the usual list that has been a mainstay of the Human condition for as long as History has been recorded?
         • rosy 7.2.1.1.2

           9 August 2011 at 9:47 pm

           Gosman have you ever noticed that ‘the city’ is where the tall, white masters of the universe work. Take a look in one of their after work haunts, then keep in mind what sort of people you see, then take the tube out to a pub in North London and compare. Yes, I have worked in the city and done exactly that.
           • Gosman 7.2.1.1.2.1

             10 August 2011 at 7:52 am

             Funny because when I worked in The City my work colleagues were a mix bunch of people of all different races and cultures. Yes Europeans predominated but given the fact that they make up up to 90 percent of the population of the UK why wouldn’t they?
             • rosy …

               10 August 2011 at 8:05 am

               Thanks for your estimate of 90 percent in The City. I’d say it’s more like 95 percent in London – and I’m being generous. However ….

               According to 2007 estimates, 31.0 per cent of London’s population is from an ethnic minority (defined as non-white) and 42.3 per cent belong to groups other than white British
               • Gosman …

                 10 August 2011 at 8:24 am

                 Ummmmmmm…. you do realise that The City doesn’t draw it’s workers from London but from a much wider catchment area? Many of the British people I worked with came from as far as field as Northern Ireland and Scotland.

                 Why should an international financial hub have to reflect the racial make up of the small geographic area that it is based in anyway?

                 I’m pretty sure if you go to places like Dubai, Singapore, and Hong Kong there will be a disproportionate number of Europeans working in the Finance industry compared to the locals. I don’t see those places whining about it do you?
                 • rosy …

                   10 August 2011 at 8:28 am

                   “Why should an international financial hub have to reflect the racial make up of the small geographic area that it is based in anyway?”

                   That suggests it should have an even greater ethnic mix. I think you need to find some info about Dubai, Singapore, and Hong Kong before you suggest what their ethnic mix in financial centres might be.
   • Blighty 7.3

     9 August 2011 at 12:18 pm

     unless you’re suggesting that cgt causes riots or that anyone promised cgt stops riots, you’re jsut trolling
8. Ianupnorth 8

   9 August 2011 at 10:33 am

   The Guardian has a live feed http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/08/london-riots-third-night-live and there are also several blogs that have been set up reporting individual towns/cities
   It isn’t just London, the Bullring centre, Birmingham’s biggest mall has been trashed and there have been incidents in Chapeltown in Leeds, another deprived area with a history of race fueled conflict.
   I wouldn’t call any of those place as being in ‘good times’ – these are very disenfranchised groups. There was research several years ago that indicated having a postcode in one of those areas lowered your chance of finding work, regardless of qualifications.
9. freedom 9

   9 August 2011 at 11:04 am

   An image from the Telegraph that pretty much says it all

   http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01966/brixton4_1966309b.jpg
10. AAMC 10

    9 August 2011 at 11:12 am

    Dave Hill – “Things I believe about the London riots”

    http://m.guardian.co.uk/uk/davehillblog/2011/aug/08/things-i-believe-about-london-riots?cat=uk&type=article
11. Bored 11

    9 August 2011 at 11:53 am

    Its the old story of idle hands…and it’s companion malady, inclusiveness.

    We run the same risk as London here in NZ. I heard on the BBC that in the areas affected the under 25 population had unemployment at 1 in 2 (we do 25% here). They see no future, no prospects, no vision of inclusion. There is absolutley nothing mindless in their response, lets face it what have they got to lose. They dont think Left or Right, only a sort of inverse inclusiveness. It is “lets poison the pie because we dont get a slice, now the rest of you can starve with us”.

    Hardly positive, but when you have no positive upside negative is just as good. Coming to NZ, be warned.
12. Bill 12

    9 August 2011 at 11:58 am

    FFS!

    All up and down this thread people are attempting to tie the riots to government policy and austerity measures. Why?

    The police allegedly executed (another) member of the public. Then, according to a number of witnesses, they battoned a 17 year old woman at a peaceful demonstration held in the aftermath of that murder.

    Subsequently, some members of the public (who normally skitter around and away from the police, at least in London) decided to engage in some form of response.

    The response might not be of a type that some people approve of. Fighting fire with fire might not be the most intelligent tactic. But where there is an undercurrent of general intimidation; where the authorities have shown again and again that they are willing to excuse (sometimes murderous) police actions, frustration and anger inform ‘lashing out’.

    And some members of the public in Birmingham or wherever, who may or may not be subject to the same chronic atmosphere of police antagonism, will take the cue that the time is right for them to lash out too.

    What’s so difficult to understand about that? (sigh) Why all the casting around for an explanation predicated on austerity measures etc?
    • The Voice of Reason 12.1

      9 August 2011 at 12:13 pm

      It’s not the austerity, it’s the games. No, not the Olympics, the computer games …
       
      ps, mentioned this on Open Mike yesterday, but worth repating. The Clash may be long gone, but London Calling, London’s Burning, Career Opportunities, White Riot and Guns of Brixton all say more about what is going on here and now in Britain than any number of tut tutting pollies and journo’s ever will.
       
       
      • Tiger Mountain 12.1.1

        9 August 2011 at 2:11 pm

        True Voice! I have most of their records (Sandanista on vinyl) and DVDs and never stopped playing them over the years. One of the few older groups that can be viewed and listened without embarrassment bar the high waisted jeans. Love the berets though.

        Working for the clampdown! Complete Control!
        • The Voice of Reason 12.1.1.1

          9 August 2011 at 4:10 pm

          You’re on to it, Tiger! If you get the chance, check out Strummer’s last band, the Mescaleros. Lots of great vids on youtube. There is also film of his last gig, the brief reunion with Mick Jones at a benefit for striking London firemen. Glad you’ve got the vinyl, you can hear the snarl better when it’s not digital!
           
          I always remember these verses from White Man in Hammersmith Palais:
           
          The new groups are not concerned
          With what there is to be learned
          They got Burton suits, ha, you think it’s funny
          Turning rebellion into money

          All over people changing their votes
          Along with their overcoats
          If Adolf Hitler flew in today
          They’d send a limousine anyway
           
          Disses frivolous pop, the wilful ignorance of voters and the vicious nature of tabloid journalism in 8 simple lines. Turning rebellion into money. Yep, there it is, right there.
           
           
           
    • Afewknowthetruth 12.2

      9 August 2011 at 12:27 pm

      Bill.

      Exactly.

      Derrick Jensen put it this way:

      Premise Four: Civilization is based on a clearly defined and widely accepted yet often unarticulated hierarchy. Violence done by those higher on the hierarchy to those lower is nearly always invisible, that is, unnoticed. When it is noticed, it is fully rationalized. Violence done by those lower on the hierarchy to those higher is unthinkable, and when it does occur is regarded with shock, horror, and the fetishization of the victims.
      • Ianupnorth 12.2.1

        9 August 2011 at 12:44 pm

        Bill, I’d say they are not mutually exclusive; without the policing policies, without the financial climate, without the external stimuli (greed, envy, globalisation, cultural – such as movies, DVD’s, music, computer games) the likelihood of these happening would be far lower.
        • Bill 12.2.1.1

          9 August 2011 at 1:14 pm

          I’m not saying they are mutually exclusive. But I don’t see the point in elevating a socio-economic argument when it is abundantly clear that the immediate reason for the riots was the actions of the police.
          • fatty 12.2.1.1.1

            9 August 2011 at 1:22 pm

            wake up bill
            • Bill 12.2.1.1.1.1

              9 August 2011 at 1:44 pm

              What the fuck is that meant to mean fatty?

              In case you missed it, the people themselves say they are reacting to the actions of the police.

              If economics was playing any part in their reasoning for rioting, then they would be fucking well saying so.

              Which is not to say that socio-economic factors are not feeding in at some level. (It’s poor people and black people who get dicked over by the police afterall; not the nice white middle class types.)

              But to reiterate. People are rioting because of police actions. Fucking simple.

              Analysing broader socio-political contexts, while worthwhile on a theoretical level, is not going to alter the reasons people have for rioting.

              People in London are not doing what they are doing for the same reason that people in Egypt are doing what they are doing, or for the same reasons that people in Spain are doing what they are doing.

              There are similarities in the broader situation present in Spain and England. But the broader context isn’t informing the actions in both London and Spain. And the actions and aspirations of people taking action in both places are very, very different.

              Or do you inhabit a world of stupor where the actions undertaken by people in different countries fit the same neat little blue print? Where due to laziness, bending reality to fit preconceived notional explanations is excusable and preferable to actually understanding and acknowledging the sometimes unique dynamics present in different places?
              • freedom …

                9 August 2011 at 1:54 pm

                Bill, look at it this way, a drunk driver is usually dead from reacting poorly to an incident and that causes them to hit the lamppost at a hundred and twenty. It does not excuse the Alcohol as a factor and it sure as hell does not make it the lamppost’s fault.
                • Bill …

                  9 August 2011 at 2:32 pm

                  The police are seen as being ‘a law unto themselves’. They are known to commit criminal acts against members of the public and it’s known that they generally get away with it.

                  This time around people are reacting. And that evidently includes setting cop cars on fire and kicking back against perceived symbols of authority…which encompasses the high street that the police are meant to ‘manage’.

                  And if a free TV or whatever can be grabbed in the process, then hey, why not?

                  There have been anti-cuts actions in the UK. Those have been informed by economic policy/ prescriptions of austerity. And they included a far broader spread of people in terms of background and age etc.

                  The current riots are informed by police criminality; a criminality that is usually focussed on the poor etc (as said above). The TV or whatever else that is looted on the side is a welcome but incidental bonus.

                  They are not overtly fucked off at government economic policy, austerity measures or any of the rest of it and so while (as I said before) underlying socio-economic factors have a part to play, I don’t see the point in ascribing those factors as the motivation for people partaking in the riots.

                  People in this instance are fucked off with the police, the shit they do and the fact that they usually get away with it
                  • joe90 …

                    9 August 2011 at 2:41 pm

                    In 2010-11 26 people died following police contact.

                    Edit: http://www.iantomlinsonfamilycampaign.org.uk/
                    • Bill …

                      9 August 2011 at 2:57 pm

                      26 died in London

                      Would love to see the breakdown of the ratio of “Black& Asian” versus “Others” figures minus the fudging effect of police ‘inspired’ traffic fatalities.
                  • Ianupnorth …

                    9 August 2011 at 2:41 pm

                    I remember once having to drive a neighbour to his works Xmas do – he was a cop; he did 60 – 70 mph through a town centre; he then gave me his car to drive home and told me not to worry, the blue eagle sticker (the emblem of the Police Federation) meant I would not be stopped if I drove in the same manner because

                    we look after our own

                     
                  • Puddleglum …

                    9 August 2011 at 9:55 pm

                    Bill, you’re right.

                    But also, as you say, explanations aren’t mutually exclusive. Whether the prevailing state of affairs in many Londoners’ lives is called alienation, oppression or whatever, the hierarchical response has always been to meet the marginalised and alienated on a daily basis with routine state violence and harrassment.

                    The reason the Met are like they are is that they are the authoritarian vanguard against a disempowered, systematically marginalised and fundamentally alienated working class and black and Asian population. 

                    This is not just anger at some contextless instance of police killing. Though that will bring it to a head. The rioters – penny to a pound – get the message every day of their lives from the police and other ‘officials’ that their marginal status and alienated lives are perceived with visceral fear and loathing. They know they’re hated and despised, and not just by the police.

                    It’s actually all about fear – the fear of both those in charge and of the middle classes, that they might get the predictable ‘blowback’ from the kind of society they have organised and benefit from. The police, increasingly, exist to alleviate just that fear.
                    • Bill …

                      9 August 2011 at 10:57 pm

                      Not. Saying. That. There. Is. No. Political. Context.

                      What I’m saying (have been saying all bloody day) is that the rioters motivation does not appear to include a conscious acknowledgement of that context you or I might articulate.

                      If I take heroin because it makes me feel good, then that’s the reason I’m taking heroin. That’s my context.

                      It might be ill informed. It might be limited. But it’s legitimate.

                      And someone attempting to ascribe other reasons to, or for me and my actions is missing the point…and delegitimising me in the process…alienating me…patronising me…disempowering me.
                    • Colonial Viper …

                      9 August 2011 at 11:20 pm

                      The smart kids in the riot, uneducated as they may be and lacking the vocab but damn smart nonetheless, will be able to see very clearly the interplay of power dynamics, violence and authority.

                      They may couch it in rap, gang language or ghetto language, but I’m pretty certain that they get at least some aspects of it.
                    • vto …

                      9 August 2011 at 11:26 pm

                      That’s right cv, people ignore at their own peril.

                      Also, is it not a thing of fascination that power is being restored to the people by means of this new strange thing called social media, of which ‘authority’ has no control.
                    • Colonial Viper …

                      9 August 2011 at 11:31 pm

                      Social media is a weapon which cuts both ways unfortunately; I’m very confident that British Intelligence has full access to Twitter, GMail and FaceBook content. Live and in real time.

                      The authorities will also likely have ‘kill switches’ for those sites, something akin to the Great Firewall of China. One thing that Tehrir Square taught. You need old fashioned methods of communication.
                    • vto …

                      9 August 2011 at 11:33 pm

                      Well you may be right. But I suspect the horses have bolted and the drawbridges are being raised.
                    • rosy …

                      9 August 2011 at 11:39 pm

                      I agree it’s all about the police in the most obvious way, but I also think they do have conscious acknowledgement of their own exclusion, and this is payback. Their own communities ascribe the wider social and political context. From the the Guardian’s live blog:
                      Lara Oyedele of Odu-Dua housing association, who lives in Tottenham, looks at the motivation of the rioters.

                      The looting doesn’t surprise me: it’s entertainment, something to keep young people busy. It’s not right, but those are the facts. Simply, if they had to go to work this morning they wouldn’t have been rioting last night. They’re disaffected, unhappy and upset, and they are looking at the likes of me, saying: you need to give me something, I need a job, I need you to help me.

                      Perhaps Haringey council would like to explain why our street in Tottenham – which was filled with looting rioters from the retail park all saturday night – has not seen a cleanup (we did it ourselves on Sunday but there’s still a lot of rubbish lying around, it just keeps coming from somewhere) and perhaps the Met would like to explain why they didn’t come out to our road despite tens of phonecalls from residents.

                      We’ve not even seen any PCSOs checking people are OK, and there are some elderly people too scared to go out. Obviously there’s a lot going on. Obviously. But the parts of the community that weren’t alienated from the police before are rapidly becoming so.

                      Well worth reading is “If rioting was a surprise then people weren’t looking”

                      On Saturday, instead of imploding and turning inward and violent among themselves, as they have been doing for the past decade, the youths exploded. The trigger may well have been the killing of Mark Duggan and the insensitive treatment of his family, but this has been brewing for some time. The government cuts – especially the withdrawal of EMA; the new barrier of tuition fees; and rising youth unemployment have all added to their sense of isolation and lack of a stake in society.
              • fatty …

                9 August 2011 at 1:59 pm

                It means exactly what is says…wake up.

                I never said anything about comparing to Spain and Egypt

                “Or do you inhabit a world of stupor where the actions undertaken by people in different countries fit the same neat little blue print?”

                3 major cities are experiencing riots and you consider it to only be a reaction to a cop killing someone…FFS, why did I even reply to you.

                Bill, you obviously came to your conclusion “due to laziness, bending reality to fit preconceived notional explanations is excusable and preferable to actually understanding and acknowledging the sometimes unique dynamics present in different places”…..yawn
                • Bill …

                  9 August 2011 at 2:48 pm

                  You stated that in NZ ‘we’ don’t mind getting ‘fucked up’ by capitalism, implying that events in London are a reaction to getting ‘fucked up by capitalism’…just like in Eqypt or Spain or Israel etc.

                  But in London as well as other (so far only English) cities a lot of youth are motivated and reacting because they are fucked off getting fucked up by the police.
                  • Ianupnorth …

                    9 August 2011 at 5:38 pm

                    This from the Guardian today (their Tuesday) http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/london-riots-mps-toxic-mix?intcmp=239

                    James Clappison, a Conservative member of the committee, said: “I would support any moves to take evidence about what has taken place – to ventilate the issues. I don’t want to rush to judgment without knowing all the facts. But obviously there would be a concern that lawlessness on this scale has broken out. We would want to look at how this came about and what can be done to prevent a recurrence. It is worrying.”
                    The London mayor, who faced criticism for refusing to cut short his holiday, will return to London by lunchtime today to tour the scenes of violence. Kit Malthouse, the deputy mayor, defended Johnson’s decision not to return earlier.
                    “Boris has been doing media where he can, he has been constantly in touch on the phone,” Malthouse told Channel 4 News. “He realised the time had come for him to come back and show solidarity with the communities affected.”
                    David Cameron was on Monday night still refusing to cancel his family holiday in Tuscany, where he is embarking on a second week of tennis lessons at his rented villa. The PM is due to return home next Monday.

                    Good to see Cameron is more interested in his serve and his backhand than his people!
                    • Vicky32 …

                      9 August 2011 at 6:01 pm

                      Good to see Cameron is more interested in his serve and his backhand than his people!

                      As I heard about in on the radio this morning, I thought “Cameron reaps what he has sown”…
                  • fatty …

                    9 August 2011 at 5:48 pm

                    Again, I never compared protests in Spain or Egypt (or Israel) to Britain…they are all different , each country has different issues and problems.
                    That other post you mentioned I was talking of why in NZ there will never be real protests…there were in 1981, but we had a collective mentality then
                  • RobertM …

                    9 August 2011 at 8:34 pm

                    Graham Greene said it is the dangerous edge of things that are interesting. And I wouldn’t doubt that a small but significant element of the pakistan and west indian descendant youths had experienced harrasment and strife from the police and that in the past the SUS laws were a source of bitterness and possible unfairness.
                    I find it very interesting that the places that are burning like the blitz are the places like Croydon, Birmingham and what Sheffield next were the most generous efforts at social intergration and inclusion have been made and are as always the places were billions have being spent on putting in and marketing light rail to the wrong demographic.
                    In terms of Egypt the problem is Islam, Religion, the military, etc. In spain its an issue of unemployment and probably too much moral conservatism and guilt.
                    So I don;t know if their’s hope in those parts of London that are burning and I don’t know if there should be hope in those parts. I think the US Rpublicans Nixon and Reagan got a significant breakthru when Watts burned in 66 in LA, so I would think more votes for Borris and Dave Cameron.
                  • AAMC …

                    9 August 2011 at 10:16 pm

                    I admire your disgust at police brutality Bill. I’m assuming you’ve reconsidered the lack of a socio economic undercurrent given the spread through the country.

                    “Tottenham is among London’s poorest boroughs, with 10,000 people claiming jobseeker’s allowance and 54 applicants chasing every registered job vacancy.”
                    “Today, Britain is less equal, in wages, wealth and life chances, than at any time since then. Last year alone, the combined fortunes of the 1,000 richest people in Britain rose by 30 per cent to £333.5 billion.”
                    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8630533/Riots-the-underclass-lashes-out.html

                    The fact that these mobs are burning the neighbourhoods the inhabit speaks volumes about the sense of total detachment from and lack if opportunity and piwer within their community.
                    • Bill …

                      9 August 2011 at 10:30 pm

                      I never said there was no environmental factors. What I said was that the understandable immediate conscious reason or rationale was a reaction to police action.

                      The police in London are particularily brutal. I’ll make a safe call. There are areas of Glasgow that are at least as impoverished as areas of London…where people are at least as alienated and powerless. If people are reacting only to the socio economic undercurrents, there will be riots in Glasgow.

                      There won’t be riots in Glasgow.
                    • fatty …

                      10 August 2011 at 9:49 am

                      Bill you can’t just say if these are class riots, there must therfore be class riots in other states/countries.
                      Glasgow is a perfect example, they have class issues, but more so the class difference between Scotland and England.
                      The most likely cause of a riot in Glasgow will probably be triggered by a bad referee call at a celtic rangers game
                      There are historical issues involving religion which would be the main reason for any violence. Glaswegians are far more likely to riot amongst themselves rather than with police.
                      So you are right, there probably won’t be riots in Glasgow…..apples and oranges
                    • Bill …

                      10 August 2011 at 10:56 am

                      There are no ‘class’ differences between Scotland and England. The differences are based on identity…race, culture etc and antagonism towards the British (English) establishment. A product of colonialism.

                      Anyway that aside, your right that it was an unfair example and that sectarianism is a more likely cause of strife. Except that there are major historical examples of overt class conflict in Glasgow.

                      Anyway.

                      Maybe the rioters just reckoned that if the police can do as they want, then why shouldn’t they just do as they want too? I mean ‘fair’s fair’, right? So ‘doing what I want’ (just like the police do) involves ‘ruling the streets’. But that’s not very exciting. So ‘doing what I want’ quickly slips over to ‘getting what I want’. “I’m thirsty. Okay, lets smash in that supermarket window and get us some fizzy drink. Fancy a kebab with that?”

                      For years the police have harrassed and on occasion killed people. And nothing is/was done. If a middle class person experiences police harrassment, they can go to their lawyer and basically things are ‘sorted out’.

                      But that’s not an option for people on estates. They don’t have lawyers. The police only show up to ‘do’ people or intimidate them. They don’t offer protection….response time for a middle class suburb is minutes versus ‘never’ for on the estates. And besides, no-one on the estates would think to ring or appeal to the police. It’s just not how things are sorted out. (Sure. In the case of a murder the police will be involved, but not for robberies or assaults etc)

                      All the buzz words and catch phrases such as ‘alienation’ and ‘disenfranchised youth’ etc although true, just doesn’t ‘talk’ to the poeple rioting or their motivation. Their context or understanding is different….you might say less informed or just more immediate. But it’s theirs and it’s legitimate.

                      And to impose more comprehensive ‘explanations’ from the outside is just another example of alienating and disenfranchising. Like I tried to say above, if my context for taking heroin is one of pleasure, then that’s your starting point…the one you must accept as a legitimate motivation, if your intention is to move me away from heroin use by helping me become more aware of other underlying factors and empowering me to address them.

                      In the London context, that might mean a process of re-introducing solid political analysis into the lives of people. And empowering them. And that would begin by acknowledging what they say and building on it, developing it. But that’s not going to happen.

                      So there will be pointless hand wringing and extra police powers. (Oh, maybe a ‘youth project’ or two and some ‘community building’ via the usual heirarchical non-empowering means…containment strategies) And then a next time around.
          • Blighty 12.2.1.1.2

            9 August 2011 at 1:36 pm

            “It’s been building up for years. All it needed was a spark,” said E. Nan, a young man in a baseball cap surrounded by other youths in Hackney in east London. “We ain’t got no jobs, no money … We heard that other people were getting things for free, so why not us?”
            http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/5411565/London-riots-spread-on-third-night-of-violence

            I guess he should stop elevating the socio-economic argument and realise the real reason he is taking that TV is because some guy he never met got shot.

            Trying to explain events as one-offs without socio-economic context and meaning is what the Right does, Bill.
            • Bored 12.2.1.1.2.1

              9 August 2011 at 1:47 pm

              Thanks Blighty, I mentioned the alienation, the lack of inclusion. See what the man said, “We ain’t got no jobs, no money … We heard that other people were getting things for free, so why not us?”…..straight from the horses mouth.

              If no bugger is listening to you, and you cant get anywhere and you get put upon by those who have the lot, why not riot? Its sort of empowering. Notice the buggers are taking notice now.
              • Gosman …

                9 August 2011 at 3:26 pm

                What do you mean no bugger listening, the whole of the last UK Labour Government’s last 7 or 8 years in power was supposedly about listening to and responding to these people. Unless of course you think it is the role of Government to magic jobs out of thin air for poor people. Oh, that’s right I forgot you are lefty so you do think that is what Government should do.
                • Bored …

                  9 August 2011 at 4:49 pm

                  Jeez Gos you really can be a fuckwit. They were calling you troll before..how about fuckwit troll.
                  • Bored …

                    9 August 2011 at 4:51 pm

                    PS Gos….assuming I am a lefty…how many jobs have you created? How many have you employed? Have you created and run lasting companies? Its what I do, theres no magic to it.
                    • Gosman …

                      9 August 2011 at 5:52 pm

                      I don’t know about the number of jobs I personally have created other than it is more than one.

                      I do know that the amount of personal Tax I am paying is more than enough to fund several families on welfare.

                      You are appreciative of people paying taxes aren’t you Bored, or are you one of these lefties who thinks that all money earnt is really the Governments anyway and we should be grateful if they allow us to have any back at all?
                    • Bored …

                      9 August 2011 at 8:06 pm

                      Gos, you are a total pillock. Am I a lefty? If you are representative of what the Right can offer I guess sitting in any other camp is preferable. You might want to strain your startlingly limited brain power with the concept that left and right are insufficient labels. So fekkin stop labeling me.

                      My turn to label. On the subject of tax and money you sound like one of those Cro Magnon Randian types who resents anybody in society having anything at all: it all belongs to Atlas as he shrugs and children go hungry because he and Ayn have cornered the money supply. Tax is the price I pay for the bits my company (and the sweat I burn in it) needs but cant do. Like infrastructure, legal systems, regulation against usurous and unsafe practices, educating my staff, keeping the poor consuming and able to participate as they are required etc etc etc . You on the other hand are the ultimate Ebeneezer Scrooge, a miserly myopic fuckwit

                      PS I just had a hard day keeping people employed. They dont necessarily deserve it but I profitted… pay tax on that too. You dont get anything for nothing. Get used to it.
    • Blighty 12.3

      9 August 2011 at 1:11 pm

      people aren’t setting fire to buildings and taking things just because some guy got shot. It’s clear that the fuel was already there, the shooting was just a spark.
13. Afewknowthetruth 13

    9 August 2011 at 12:09 pm

    The only reason London exists at all in its present form is because of all the cheap coal that was avaialble in the past and cheap oil which is presently facilitating the transport of large quantites of resources, including food, into the city.

    Global extraction of conventional oil peaked over 2005-2008 and is on its way down. The fall in global extraction may be temporarily masked by so-called unconventional oil but the prognosis is quite clear. As time goes on most people will have declining access to fossil fuel energy and the food that is brought to them via fossil fuel energy.

    Right at this moment the partial collapse in confidence in the global economy has generated enough demand destruction for oil prices to fall. That is sufficient to fool the uninformed into thinking the energy crisis is over when it reality is has only just begun and every day that passes the predicament gets worse.
14. fatty 14

    9 August 2011 at 12:11 pm

    We will never have the same riots here in NZ, we are the same as USA, an individualised country. When capitalism fucks us up we blame ourselves, not the system. That’s why the French love a good riot.
    In NZ we love getting fucked by capitalism, that’s why we vote for the same old shit and then tell Hone he is crazy when he offers us another option. Britain would have the same problems if they had that Milliband nob in now.
    We only protest if you take away individual rights, such as the right top inflict pain on our children.
    • Ianupnorth 14.1

      9 August 2011 at 12:46 pm

      +1 – hardly a more true sentiment.
    • freedom 14.2

      9 August 2011 at 2:48 pm

      If the USA did not expect riots in their future they would not be leaders in the development of crowd control technologies

      Want a trip to the world expected by the dark side? Type the following words into Google and ask yourself why these weapons exist and who they are designed to be used upon.

      Google: usa crowd control devices

      Every device on these pages and the ones they will lead you too are now in full production and have seen Military and Civilian service in the past five years. Including the Directed Energy weapons, the Long Range Acoustic Device and the Pulsed Energy Projectiles. Some have been used on American citizens on American soil.

      I have also heard on te grapevine that US bases in England have received numerous heavy vehicle flights in the last twentyfour hours and i strongly expect some if not all of this equipment will be seen within fortyeight hours if the situation worsens. If the situation does worsen the drive will be to disperse without bloodshed. Property is lost and that is accepted but the line of blood is not one the Government will be willing to cross if it can use alternatives. Step in the NON-Lethal livery of the USA
      • Ianupnorth 14.2.1

        9 August 2011 at 3:06 pm

        First Tazers, now these, sheesh….
        • freedom 14.2.1.1

          9 August 2011 at 4:00 pm

          the focused microwave emitters are particularly disturbing as they can be scaled up to frightening levels
          • Colonial Viper 14.2.1.1.1

            9 August 2011 at 9:59 pm

            They won’t have time to train UK personnel to use this advanced new equipment.

            Therefore those transports will also be bringing in American law enforcement special units or military special forces dressed as civilian law enforcement.

            Fraking scary shit.

            Mind you, the Brits got rid of the Roman Empire so *shrug*. Game on.
    • Vicky32 14.3

      9 August 2011 at 6:04 pm

      We will never have the same riots here in NZ, we are the same as USA, an individualised country.

      Quoto al 100%!
      • FLASH 14.3.1

        9 August 2011 at 7:07 pm

        Bullshit! Where were you ;

        Riot in Downtown Los Angeles after Lakers win the Championship
        University of Minnesota campus riots
        Benton Harbor Riot
        Ohio State University, Second Chittfest block party riot

        Just a few from the last few years. Corporate media won’t broadcast real news!
15. jackal 15

    9 August 2011 at 3:03 pm

    London’s Burning

    The blame game has already started regarding the England riots. Some say that it’s just people taking advantage of the situation to loot and the rioters deserve to be shot. But the real reason behind England’s most recent social disorder is far more relevant to New Zealand’s societal make up. It’s time to take a hard look at policies that drive social disintegration and not ignore the potential for a similar occurrence here in Gods own…
16. freedom 16

    9 August 2011 at 4:01 pm

    http://rt.com/on-aiR
    right now
17. millsy 17

    9 August 2011 at 4:12 pm

    Agree with a poster above that this is more in response to police conduct than the government’s austerity measures.

    While there are a few legitamite protesters there, it seems to me that there were a lot of people who decided to use the events as an excuse for criminal behaviour, and or to cause a fight, fuck the cops, smash a few windows, set a few cars on fire, stuff like that.

    All this will really do is give the establishment and the bring-back-the-birchers an excuse to just clamp down harder on them

    I dont see any winners from this.
18. ak 18

    9 August 2011 at 5:24 pm

    Well golly gosh. Who would’ve expected this? Spend thirty years in the relentless pursuit of transferring wealth to a tiny privileged percentage by employing every guise, wile and hatemongering method of opinion manipulation to bully and mesmerise the unwitting public into accepting and adopting a greedy, nihilistic “dog-eat-dog” attitude to their fellows, and what happens?

    Damned shame innit. Glad Maggies’s still with us to witness the inevitable fruit of her miserable, diseased loins.
19. FLASH 19

    9 August 2011 at 7:00 pm

    “WHITE RIOT – WANNA RIOT”
    “WHITE RIOT – A RIOT OF MY OWN”
    “WHITE RIOT – I WANNA RIOT”
    “WHITE RIOT – A RIOT OF MY OWN”
20. freedom 20

    9 August 2011 at 7:02 pm

    reply to Gosman
    http://thestandard.org.nz/london-riots/#comment-362122
    “I do know that the amount of personal Tax I am paying is more than enough to fund several families on welfare.”

    several is always three or above, so let us take it as three

    ‘three families’ ascribes the statement to a DPB.

    Minimum with 1 child approximately $338 a week
    Even though i suspect you worked off a higher average i will keep mine based in figures many outside of urban centers have to survive on. ( base of $278 + $a 60 accommodation allowance)

    so you are implying you pay $52,728 a year in tax ,
    ( figures off ird chart for ACC exclusive rates )
    tax — income
    1,470 — 14,000 — up to 14k
    6,650 — 38,000 — up to 48k
    6,660 — 22,000 — up to 70k
    37,948 — 114,982 — over 70k

    52,784 — 188,982 — totals

    so what you are really saying Gosman is that you have trouble living a fair and happy life with 136 thousand dollars a year in your back pocket. You got issues man.
    • Gosman 20.1

      9 August 2011 at 8:16 pm

      “so what you are really saying Gosman is that you have trouble living a fair and happy life with 136 thousand dollars a year in your back pocket.”

      Ummmmm….. where have I ever stated this???

      Do you have any quotes which would suggest this is my view or have you decided in your leftist wisdom to ascribe views to me just because that is what lefties like you want to do?
      • freedom 20.1.1

        9 August 2011 at 8:31 pm

        you never stated that precisely, no, its just that overall you seem really angry that people who are in need, get help from the Government. This view usually comes from people who are unhappy and if having money doesn’t make you happy and willing to contribute to a society then obviously there is something else bothering you.
21. vto 21

    9 August 2011 at 7:25 pm

    The lands and people are tinder dry.

    The sparks in the middle east will link with the sparks in Greece will link with the sparks of riot in London will link with sparks about to fire the US wil link with tiny sparks about to be thrown at adidas here in godzone.

    The world of debt, so apparently unsustainable some years ago, was collapsed into governments arms who sought to save their own power bases by transferring the debt to the people, which was never going to make it, leading to a further meltdown when their arms sagged in dry and parched weakness, awaiting the spark . . .
    • RedLogix 21.1

      9 August 2011 at 7:56 pm

      Yes… my father always said that the Tories owed a huge debt of gratitude to the unions of the 1930’s who in response to the Great Depression backed left wing govts into reforming the worst excesses of capitalism… thus ironically forestalling full-scale revolution.

      But roll forward 80 years and the unions aren’t going to play that role again… and marxism isn’t the intellectual force it was. My fear is that the reactionary, fascist right-wing forces have little to oppose them…
      • dad4justice 21.1.1

        9 August 2011 at 8:14 pm

        Excuse me RedLogsick – I do believe many of the reactionary hard left wing thugs are in on the action. FFS you losers are always so quick to fire the right wing hit. Facts before bullshit boyo!
        • Mick 21.1.1.1

          9 August 2011 at 8:29 pm

          Some women get up your nose? They must be “lefties” too. Looked at your site…very unpleasant. Foul stench.
          • dad4justice 21.1.1.1.1

            9 August 2011 at 9:43 pm

            [lprent: deleted, and if I see you trying to out people again you will be out for a while. ]
        • Colonial Viper 21.1.1.2

          9 August 2011 at 8:35 pm

          Don’t be a &$%*tard.

          RedLogix is not talking about the few burnt down police stations and wrecked shops of this week. Maybe lift your head up a little so you can see down the road beyond your shoes.
        • RedLogix 21.1.1.3

          9 August 2011 at 8:39 pm

          Not excused.

          London’s riots are not the Tupperware troubles of Greece or Spain, where the middle classes lash out against their day of reckoning. They are the proof that a section of young Britain – the stabbers, shooters, looters, chancers and their frightened acolytes – has fallen off the cliff-edge of a crumbling nation.

          http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8630533/Riots-the-underclass-lashes-out.html

          These are not ‘political’ riots in the usual sense.
          • Bill 21.1.1.3.1

            9 August 2011 at 10:02 pm

            Been trawling through UK political activist web sites. And it appears that activists are as ‘at sea’ on this as anyone.

            There does appear to be a broad consensus that this is not political in the ‘normal’ sense (as you commented).

            Although I got a fair bit of stick for this today, I’ll hold to my argument that its essentially a visceral reaction to being fucked over by the police. There are underlying social factors, but they aren’t recognised by the people involved. The dynamics or effects of exclusion and alienation have become normalised to the point of invisibility. They’ve dropped from any world view they might have; have become unexpressable.

            Fuck, start talking politics and if you’re lucky you’ll just get looked at sideways. If you’re a bit unlucky you’ll get twatted.

            It’s about getting back at the police who’re the physical presence that’s fucked them and their mates over time and time again. And isn’t it understandable that takes the form of ‘taking over their turf’ for a while (the high street)…and maybe doing a bit of bargain hunting on the side?

            The aftermath and the slew of legislation that will follow is what gives me – half a world away – cause to pause. The met already (last week) put out flyers urging people to report on their neighbours if they thought their neighbours were anarchists. And on the back of this? Nothing good is in store for those involved in political activity in the UK.
22. rosy 22

    9 August 2011 at 9:23 pm

    Toxteth Riots – 1981, under Thatcher
    Brixton Riots – 1981
    Brixton Riots – 1985
    Tottenham Riots – 2011, Cameron

    All in times of austerity, all with a police grievance in a setting of deprived, mainly black, youth with 20% + unemployment and withdrawing investment in social services in the inner cities. All with the middle classes furious about criminality and refusing to look at underlying causes. However, when people have no stake in society this is entirely predictable.
    • Gosman 22.1

      10 August 2011 at 7:57 am

      Who hasn’t gt a stake in society?
      • rosy 22.1.1

        10 August 2011 at 8:18 am

        Clearly not the politicians that have returned from Italy, North America and where-ever else tell those who have to ‘holiday’ in London that they’re greedy. But I know, that just makes me sound envious (although I’m not).

        From Bored’s open mike link

        …. after decades of being ignored and marginalised and harassed by the police, after months of seeing any conceivable hope of a better future confiscated, they are finally on the news. In one NBC report, a young man in Tottenham was asked if rioting really achieved anything:

        “Yes,” said the young man. “You wouldn’t be talking to me now if we didn’t riot, would you?”

        “Two months ago we marched to Scotland Yard, more than 2,000 of us, all blacks, and it was peaceful and calm and you know what? Not a word in the press. Last night a bit of rioting and looting and look around you.”

        Eavesdropping from among the onlookers, I looked around. A dozen TV crews and newspaper reporters interviewing the young men everywhere.

        There are communities all over the country that nobody paid attention to unless there had recently been a riot or a murdered child. Well, they’re paying attention now.
        • Gosman 22.1.1.1

          10 August 2011 at 8:28 am

          Paying attention to what exactly? What are these rioters wanting exactly other than high end sport apparrel and wide screen televisions?
          • rosy 22.1.1.1.1

            10 August 2011 at 8:40 am

            Yeah you’d thing they’d just go buy some eh? How about you read some commentary to find out why they didn’t.
            http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/london-riots
            • Gosman 22.1.1.1.1.1

              10 August 2011 at 8:59 am

              So you can’t answer my question. What are people meant to be paying attention to?

              That a bunch of under educated youth can’t find decent jobs where they live?

              Shock horror!
              • Colonial Viper …

                10 August 2011 at 9:02 am

                Go study the French Revolution dickhead. The message of the mob isn’t meant for you. It’s meant for your Masters.
              • rosy …

                10 August 2011 at 9:06 am

                Oh I could have a good stab at answering your question, I just know it’s not worth my time – given how many links to news items are available to you that you clearly can’t be bothered reading or understanding.

                Sweeping one-liners don’t constitute discussion or an argument.
              • RedLogix …

                10 August 2011 at 9:07 am

                Sorry Gos …but wilful refusal to pay attention does not count.

                That a bunch of under educated youth can’t find decent jobs where they live?

                Yes actually… in the long run it does become ‘shock horror’. Or to quote the last para from the Guardian link above:

                This is unadulterated, indigenous anger and ennui. It’s a provocation, a test of will and a hamfisted two-finger salute to the authorities.

                Or do you have so little imagination that you cannot conceive of what happens to young people when they’re long-term jobless and with little hope of a future?
                • Gosman …

                  10 August 2011 at 9:24 am

                  Well perhaps they should have taken advantage of the massive increase in Education spending under the last Labour Government in the UK then.

                  I have no sypathy for youths in Western nations complaining that they can’t find jobs because they aren’t qualified.

                  I do have more sympathy for those who are qualified who can’t find jobs but then again it isn’t the role of Governments in Western Democracies to create jobs as much as leftists would like to be.
                  • RedLogix …

                    10 August 2011 at 10:05 am

                    I have no sympathy for youths in Western nations complaining that they can’t find jobs because they aren’t qualified.

                    As I thought… no imagination. You really are incapable of seeing anything from anything but you’re own narrow perspective.
                    • freedom …

                      10 August 2011 at 10:21 am

                      Gosman has money so doesn’t feel he has a need to understand anything…..
                      Funny thing is, i always thought those with the money had the most understanding of how things worked, then i learned to read and started school.
                  • Colonial Viper …

                    10 August 2011 at 10:06 am

                    Wow…”education”, “qualifications” for what? More student debt?

                    Because there aren’t jobs in the UK for highly qualified engineers, town planners, physiotherapists or production managers.

                    The social contract in the UK is breaking down, and governments who don’t give a shit about that (and jobs with decent incomes is a core element) will get their ass handed to them.
                  • Zaphod Beeblebrox …

                    10 August 2011 at 10:08 am

                    Funny did not hear you saying the same things about the riots in Tunisia, Egypt, Syria or Lybia? People are a product of their circumstances they are not inherently evil or sinster from birth,
                    • Gosman …

                      10 August 2011 at 2:34 pm

                      What do you mean ou didn’t hear the same from me about the people in Libya and other places like that?
                  • mik e …

                    10 August 2011 at 8:14 pm

                    Now your talking rubbish Gooseman thats ideological claptrap again from you.I say Singapore to you countries which don’t plan their economies have higher unemployment.
              • joe90 …

                10 August 2011 at 9:07 am

                http://news.sky.com/home/business/article/16046645

                Britain is undergoing an enormous demographic shift – the consequences of which few people yet understand.
                There are a million more 15-24 year olds in Britain today than a decade ago, and it’s striking that those taking part in these riots are almost all in this age cohort.
                Bear in mind that the last time this group was so large was in the early 1980s (in fact it was actually a million people higher at that point).
          • Colonial Viper 22.1.1.1.2

            10 August 2011 at 8:48 am

            Their message is loud and clear mate. But if you can’t hear it, it’s obviously not yet loud enough for you.

            It will be.
            • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 22.1.1.1.2.1

              10 August 2011 at 9:29 am

              Their message is loud and clear mate.

              I am hearing it. “Give me a Bang and Olufsen tele for nothing!”
              • freedom …

                10 August 2011 at 10:18 am

                no Gormless, like Gosman you very obviously are choosing not to listen. All you are hearing is the buzzing of wasps and weevils. Listen more closely, there is a slow continuous tapping behind it, it is the angry army ants of the destitute. Sticks in hand and stones aplenty they watch the war budgets grow as their local hangouts get cut. They see bailouts to bankers as their brother gets redunduncy. They see Stadiums go up as Schools get closed. When you have nothing and that gets taken as well, there is no longer the need for rules. Is that justification to defend the lawlessness?
                The 21st Century has a brand new catch 22 to understand.
                • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell …

                  10 August 2011 at 10:33 am

                  I think this is how Behring Breivik got there as well. Were you listening to the tapping behind his buzzing? Or did you discount it on the grounds that he was mad?
                  • freedom …

                    10 August 2011 at 10:44 am

                    I am not at all convinced he is mad. He is a fucking idiot who deserves to be drawn and quartered but violence solves nothing. He made an horrific decision but one he can obviously justify to himself and for that decision i hope he is incarcerated and spends a long long time living with his crimes. He made an ignorant and self-justified decision to kill, much the same way as America justifies killing over a million civilians in a foreign country to take their Oil. Madness is a very loose and chameleonic phrase when describing the choice to take lives. Your attempt to distract the dialogue is noted, it’s a fail for irrelevant content but hey at least you show that ignoring the reality of a suituation is still one of your strengths.
                    • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell …

                      10 August 2011 at 10:50 am

                      But surely your point is that, wherever there is anger, no matter how irrational or irrelevant, it is the responsibility of those not causing the violence to fix the “problems” of the perpetrators of the violence.
                • Gosman …

                  10 August 2011 at 2:33 pm

                  You say the war budget continues to grow yet I posted a link, (twice it must be stated), which showed Defence expenditure in the UK hardly moved in real terms between 2001 and 2008 yet that for Social spending increased immensely.

                  These underclass people are hard to please.
                  • mik e …

                    10 August 2011 at 8:22 pm

                    Gooseman thats just a Narcissistic comment.There were years of under investment in education under tory govts which decimated British industry, while other countries that planned their economies during the neo liberal onslaught did much better.Laissez fair is ideological BS just like Communism.Any country today that is growing sustainably has dumped Neo liberalism and communism.Narcissistic arrogance has lead to these problems
23. freedom 23

    10 August 2011 at 8:39 am

    live on BBC this morning, about 2am. Lord Mayor Boris Johnson returns from holiday and heads to Clapham to talk to a group of calm and articulate residents and shop owners. A minute or two into the live broadcast an individual got near the front and asked the Mayor directly to say what was being done about the Mark Duggan inquiry and the Mayor got very agitated very quickly and one of his handlers pulled him out stating that he had an interview for SkyTV to get to. It was a bad look. Have these people learnt nothing the last few days?

    here’s hoping that calm returns and level heads prevail.
    • Colonial Viper 23.1

      10 August 2011 at 9:00 am

      The crowd can sense moral cowardice in the authorities and the political leadership.

      Given that the social contract with masses of British youths has been broken for years, and hatred of the police is overwhelming who can be surprised at this event.

      And imagine the youths’ surprise in the last few weeks when their long held negative views on the police were confirmed on nationwide TV via the Murdoch phone tapping scandal: that the Metropolitan police are a corrupt and untrustworthy organisation with corrupt and untrustworthy officers and leaders.
24. Flash AARHH!! 24

    10 August 2011 at 9:28 am

    Interesting comments here but there’s something some of you just don’t get? Stop trying to rationalise what is happening. The opportunity has presented itself to those in society that have been dealt to by Cameron’s Austerity measures and quite simply it isn’t going to stop till he’s gone! Get rid of the idiot!! We’ve got an idiot just like him here in NZ too!
25. infused 25

    10 August 2011 at 9:29 am

    This isn’t about an underclass. You’re fucking stupid if you think this is anything more than people being opportunists.
    • Colonial Viper 25.1

      10 August 2011 at 9:44 am

      The Tories and the city bankers being pure opportunists? They sure have been for the last couple of years. And see what it’s delivered them.
    • freedom 25.2

      10 August 2011 at 9:51 am

      an opportunist acts because of need
      in this case the need to inflict damage
      damage is always in response to a threat

      so ask yourself what threatens these kids?

      for starters, throughout their entire disaffected lives built of poverty, joblessness, poor schools and few alternatives, there has been mass consumerism bombarding them every minute. Police brutality, 24/7 CCTV surveillance & searches just for walking on a street and being black? These are simple, often stated, undeniable factors contributing to the unrest. The kids did not and do not create this situation. Yes they have charges to face and penalties to pay for the crimes committed but do not let that forgive those whose real crimes are yet to be written in the ledger of human development.

      The kids did not and do not create this situation.
      They have only brought it home, slapping the carcass of the Capitalist illusion on the kitchen table
      • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 25.2.1

        10 August 2011 at 10:11 am

        What do you think a starving kid in Africa would make of a hooded youth smashing in the front of a Bang & Olufsen store to get a big tele as a solution to his terrible disafftected life of poverty?

        Nothing probably. He’ll probably be too busy with the business of being actually deprived.
        • freedom 25.2.1.1

          10 August 2011 at 10:32 am

          and it is the same bankers depriving the kids in Africa who have their HQ in London

          The blocking of the building of roads, the endless supply of weapons, the restrictions on access to medicine. Where do you think the decisions for these actions get made you fool.

          There is plenty to feed and house and employ everybody on this planet. You have to decide if that is what you want to happen. If it is you know how to do that. If you don’t then stay with the status quo and enjoy the fireworks. Because any one with half a brain will see this for what it is. The shape of things to come. The scenes in London, Birmingham, Liverpool, these are not isolated incidents that are occuring outside of the political maelstrom we exist in. They are and will be seen as the beginning of a shift in awareness. There will be months of quiet, then some other innocuous event will spark another, then another and as the batons come down and the laws go up we will see our choice more plainly. A shift towards complete fascism or a shift to reclaim the foundations of freedom.
          The choice as always is yours.
          • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 25.2.1.1.1

            10 August 2011 at 10:51 am

            But I do not want to be housed and fed. I want luxury consumer goods.
            • freedom 25.2.1.1.1.1

              10 August 2011 at 11:04 am

              even your sarcasm unmasks your intent to blame the perps in isolation, and not acknowledge the corrupt system that drives the violence.

              and in response to your earlier comment
              “it is the responsibility of those not causing the violence to fix the “problems” of the perpetrators of the violence.”

              basically , yeah. it is up to everyone to acknowledge the problems we face and work together towards a solution to poverty greed and corruption. An apparently futile task but that does not downgrade its importance.

              If we choose to continue with the way things are, nothing will improve. That is not a statement that can be argued against. That is common sense.
              • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell …

                10 August 2011 at 11:21 am

                even your sarcasm unmasks your intent to blame the perps and not acknowledge the corrupt system that drives the violence.

                OK. Only, I never made any attempt to mask it.

                Just so I understand completely, your position is that, when someone commits violence the onus is on the victim to solve the problem that the person committing the violence says is causing him to be violent?

                So, say, a beaten wife needs to get to the bottom of the problem causing her husband to beat her? Norwegians need to work out why Behring Breivik is so upset and fix the problem he perceives (in his case, this would require them to persecute Muslims)? As a Tutsi was having his hand hacked off, presumably, he should have been directing his attention at solving his Hutu assailant’s problems, instead of just standing there bleeding?

                This is brilliant.

                Anything I want I can get just by behaving incredibly badly.
                • RedLogix …

                  10 August 2011 at 11:52 am

                  Yeah and in your world there is never a reason, just blame. When bad things happen you’ll froth and vent… and reach for vengance it it’s within your grasp… but there’ll always be a next time because there never is any lesson to be learnt, nothing ever needs to change and the world is perfect the way it is.

                  No-one here is excusing the rioters. They are responsible for their actions. What they are doing is deplorable and is hurting other innocent people. It would be really good if it stopped and now.

                  At the same time there is a reason why these riots are happening. And every serious commentator knows it. And unless and until we are willing to acknowledge that reason, and act to change it, then all you are committed to is an escalating police response, meeting violence with more violence. Force is the only solution you have.

                  Unless you know WHY these riots are happening, you will remain powerless to stop them.
                • freedom …

                  10 August 2011 at 12:03 pm

                  to Gormy the Gimp, go stick your head in a barrel of sump oil.

                  i quote myself….
                  “it is up to everyone to acknowledge the problems we face and work together towards a solution to poverty greed and corruption”

                  How you take that statement as a basis for your reply is beyond me and is an insult to the victims of the very real violence in our society. A Society is made up of individuals yes, but i have not said and have never said that the individual is alone .

                  i include a parting comment from a kid called boxxy
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWjXwrDE5rg&feature=related
      • infused 25.2.2

        10 August 2011 at 2:34 pm

        What bullshit. There is no need for what they are doing. How about you go to liveleak and actually see what’s really going on there.
        • Colonial Viper 25.2.2.1

          10 August 2011 at 2:52 pm

          Here’s an interesting idea. It’s not for you to define or limit what their needs and aspirations are.
          • infused 25.2.2.1.1

            11 August 2011 at 12:17 am

            Here’s an idea: Get a clue instead if posting the rambling shit you are so accustom to.

            The new thread about this actually admits that: http://thestandard.org.nz/london-riots-a-guest-post/

            “It seems pretty clear that there are strong opportunistic elements involved in the looting – it’s certainly no heroic insurrection of the working class”

            Pull your head out of your ass once in awhile.
26. freedom 26

    10 August 2011 at 11:48 am

    a BBC interview that highlights how the media is still not listening,
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoFak7MRBJw&feature=player_embedded
    • freedom 26.1

      10 August 2011 at 1:47 pm

      the really interesting point of this video is that this video is perhaps the only interview that attempts to ask the actual question about what is going on but is not one of the five or six interviews that are on high rotation on BBC today. mmm BBC obvious as always
    • Bill 26.2

      10 August 2011 at 1:52 pm

      – heh – That’s fucking classic!

      “Quick. Quick! Slam the lid on! He says he’s not shocked for christ sakes! He’s talking common sense and imparting some home truths! Discredit him. For fucks sake DISCREDIT him!! Oh, fuck. Cut!….CUT!!!”

      And now moving on to “the huge knock on effect to life in the capital.”

      And the biggest ‘knock on’ effect? The really important stuff? England v Holland at Wembley cancelled. – ffs
27. Rosebytes 27

    10 August 2011 at 12:51 pm

    Power to the People!!!!! The revolution is now!!
    • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrel 27.1

      10 August 2011 at 6:55 pm

      Course it is.
28. JK 28

    12 August 2011 at 9:20 am

    How vulnerable the UK is now to Al Qaeda … lets hope they do us all a favour! Then we’d have a chance of winning the rugby world cup! Haha Allah! – John Key NZ PM
29. Frank Macskasy 29

    13 August 2011 at 2:02 pm

    I think this is worth consideration…

    “Create a society that values material things above all else. Strip it of industry. Raise taxes for the poor and reduce them for the rich and for corporations. Prop up failed financial institutions with public money. Ask for more tax, while vastly reducing public services. Put adverts everywhere, regardless of people’s ability to afford the things they advertise. Allow the cost of food and housing to eclipse people’s ability to pay for them. Light blue touch paper.” – Andrew Maxwell, Irish comedian

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